2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary's been late to the party on LGBTQ equality, late to the party on regrets about her Iraq War
vote, late to the party on $15 minimum wage, late to the party on TPP and NAFTA, late to the party on a humanistic view of immigration, etc.
Supporters of someone who's been late to the party so often shouldn't be the ones to issue threats about party unity.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)the fact that the rest of the country was not with them, is not their fault
people who intentionally distort history to create a dishonest narrative are dishonest.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in that article that I provided for you. Very interesting.
Sanders people stated for him, his vote was with state because it would cause problems not having a uniformity, creating havoc.
Not for gay people. Not a mention of them. The tone deaf.
I talked to my brother in law, that is gay, living in both NY and SF and well into the politics. I was so angry about the 2004 marriage equality issue that was fore front. That was a learning experience I carry with me, because it so profoundly told me to shut up and listen.
I was cheering on and fighting for civil marriage. Good intent. I was pissed people were denied rights and this may be a step to loosening people up while allow gays to be legally protected.
I was told, in no uncertain word, that it was not good enough. I had to listen.
But, I was talking to my brother in law, angry and he sat back and said, it was cool, we were on the right track, it would happen. He did not have the same anger, having lived thru all this, not me.
With what Sanders said with DOMA, ... was exactly wrong. Because the states, certain states, started passing marriage equality and fucking up the system, it made people say.... this isn't scary, this is ok, my son got married, good for him.... or nephew, or mother, or or or or.
By that very action, it created an atmosphere that allowed the nation to do one big ole sigh, and let it the fuck go. Cause we all know it is right, morally and constitutionally.
Essentially that is what it takes to break the will of the division. Blacks. Women. Gays. We are seeing the same with the $15/hr. States, areas that can afford, companies..... That will make it a norm. The norm wins.
Very interesting.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)this is what i mean by intentionally distorting history.
Bernie didn't come out for marriage till around 2009, although he represented one of the most liberal states on this issue and could have easily 'evolved' earlier.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if ya want to get married get married no matter who you are, Hillary didn't untill after the SCOTUS ruling when it was politically safe
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)not before.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)refused to give an opinion and stayed silent?
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Thank you so much. I had not gone back that far. Simply amazing. And the man has the audacity to state that he was always. He cannot get away with buying into his own hype and call it integrity when he flat out plays politics.
I have not read this one. I have read many. Blacks with the 60's seems to be the time he touched on black lives. Women, 70 and 80's, I started gays about 90's.
Interesting. Thank you for the info.
This was my tell. I started with Sanders and immediately saw this tell, and suggested we allow gays, women, blacks to sit at the table, too. In between being told other things were more important, I was being told Sanders voice for me was good enough. A mlk/feminist hero better than any black or woman, I assure you, they told me. Christ live in that way. Yet... I was not hearing us discussed, and the little I heard, I was not impressed.
Very interesting. Now, here is the upside with all this, learning lessons in everything. Sanders has afforded me an opportunity to see a side of our Democratic man (and of course the women that support) that thinks he is supporting me, but not allowing us to speak, misses the mark.
That has been revelations for me, another growing experience. Hi women, and with your education, what do you see.
Thank you. Love it.
elljay
(1,178 posts)I understand your point. Civil rights should be determined by public opinion and not by what is morally right. Hyoprisy in the defense of Clinton is no vice, right?
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)also, while the slaves were 'freed' in 1864, black suffered from all sorts of legal discrimination/jim crow for a hundred years after. Civil rights and justice take time. it wasn't all done in 1864, nor even in 1964.
elljay
(1,178 posts)well not in mine. I don't need straight people gaysplaining why I have fewer civil rights than African Americans in half of this country. I don't care what other people thought. I remember well when Hillary sold me out and then her "evolution" long after public opinion had changed and there were fewer consequences for doing what was right than for being opposed to equality. She belongs to a right wing Evangelical secret organization and I have no doubt her position is a pure political calculation and not a true belief. No justification for her at all.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)since my people and I were never slaves, never subjected to jim crow etc. I don't need people speaking about gay as though there are no gay African Americans. I find people who do that, are general awash in white privilege.
Hillary and Bill Clinton spoke of the LGBT community in a way in the 90's that VERY few people in their stature did. They took a very different tone to AIDS than anyone who held their office before, and changed the climate around how people spoke about LGBT people. Just because you don't want to or can't remember that, is not my fault.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)DURHAM D
(32,606 posts)Vote2016
(1,198 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)till they evolved
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)issue. White, middle/upper middle class, men that need our help.
Yup.
Wedge issues.
thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)He never said abortion rights were a distraction, he was saying that Trump's stupid statements are distractions. You can see the original words (that were twisted by Clinton) at http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-full-transcript-rachel-maddow-interview-442491
And if you haven't heard him talk in support of LGBT, you haven't been listening.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)we get too little time. White, middle/upper middle, men and university youth are 99 percent of the time, the he divveys out the rest to us. Maybe, sometimes.
This is our point.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Never accept racism, sexism, nor homophobia. (Jun 1997)
Voted NO on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage. (Sep 2004)
Voted NO on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999)
Voted NO on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions. (May 1998)
Constitutional Amendment for equal rights by gender. (Mar 2001)
Rated 93% by the ACLU, indicating a pro-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 100% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
ENDA: prohibit employment discrimination for gays. (Jun 2009)
Prohibit sexual-identity discrimination at schools. (Mar 2011)
Enforce against anti-gay discrimination in public schools. (Jun 2013)
Bernie Saners, "On the Issues"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)While other public figures talk the talk, Bernie walks the walk.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)About the only times she's not late are the places where she's still wrong.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Yet the decision came after months of pressure from civil rights and immigrant justice groups, who launched online petitions and interrupted Clintons public events, demanding she cut ties with the private prison industry.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/10/23/3715544/clinton-private-prisons/
It's disturbing that it has been one human rights issue after another where she has had to evolve. It says a lot about her moral compass and values. One of the things that bothers me most is the lack of remorse. She owes a lot of apologies to families affected by mass incarceration and welfare reform.
djean111
(14,255 posts)to pander for votes. She would back off her new stances in a heartbeat, if the situation called for it. There is no there, there.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)The counter argument, imo, should be why her positives outweigh it. If Secretary Clinton becomes our nominee then only NAFTA and the TPP will be issues of concern to undecided moderates.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)is more about how Sanders has defined her on the issue, not reality. So, I am interested where she goes here. It will give us a better idea.
NAFTA? She was not the boss, and it was not her doing the directing and guiding. Both TPP and NAFTA, her position was supporting another.
It will be interesting to see her position. It is very measured, and very informed.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)She swoops in after the battle is won to pose for pictures.