Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:52 AM Jun 2016

All who have already called for Sanders to unite behind Clinton will have to regain my respect

You have lost it for now. Not that my individual respect means a hill of beans to anyone, but it is mine to give or not to give and that is where matters stand. Had you waited until this Wednesday, I would likely feel differently about it. I'm not sure I would agree with you on that even then, but then that debate would at least be honorable. Now I find it deplorable. Virtually everyone who is making the case for Sanders to "make peace" now is a die hard Clinton supporter, and it was Hillary Clinton herself who refused to "make peace" in the name of party unity until the voters had had their say and the 2008 primary season was over. Now it is about "stopping Donald Trump". In 2008 it was about life and death and the war in Iraq, and the danger of another pro War Republican again taking control of the White House. At this point in that cycle Hillary remained defiant. As did almost all of her supporters.

At this point in the cycle it is not only about winning or losing, it is also about leverage. Even during her gracious performance at the 2008 Democratic Convention, Hillary was proud to point to "18 million cracks in the glass ceiling". She was counting every vote she won and making sure the whole world, Democratic Party and its presidential nominee included, knew about every one of them. And Hillary fought hard to the bitter end, and was lauded by her supporters for doing so, trying to wrack up each vote that she could. They all contributed to Clinton's continuing standing and power inside of the Democratic Party looking forward, after her defeat by Barack Obama. Had Hillary taken her foot off the throttle weeks earlier than she did, her influence would have been diminished. She would have been viewed predominantly as a defeated rival, not as the leader of a political movement that fell just short of making Hillary President.

The time for Party unity is at the Democratic National Convention, on its final day with all of it's leaders standing arm and arm and smiling together on a stage together. It can happen sooner, sure, but that is subject to negotiations. There is not all that much to negotiate when a contest ultimately is one sided, a commanding victor dictates the terms. That is how a winning camp prefers it of course. That is at the root of much of the weeks, if not months long, frenetic campaign by Team Clinton to force Sanders to concede early defeat - sapping energy from his subsequent campaign. But Sanders isn't just campaigning for himself, he is also fighting for a cause. Had Bernie dutifully backed down when "Party Elders" long ago asked him to, and scaled back the intensity of his campaigning, what he fought for would have faded from the public sphere and public mind.

The highly anticipated vote tomorrow in our nation's largest state would instead have been a mere asterisk on the 2016 election. By fiercely contesting (and potentially winning as a strong underdog) a California Primary that Clinton herself won in 2008, Bernie Sanders ensures that his message will remain front and center at Philadelphia come July. For all those so obsessed with talking about "the Math"; the margin of a victory is as relevant to determining the relative strength of the key elements of a coalition within it, as the outcome is to determining who ultimately heads it. The Democratic Party is and always has been a coalition. In a two Party political system both political parties by necessity become coalitions with various factions having varying degrees of strength.

We, the People, collectively exercise our peak level of influence on the internal dynamics of the Democratic Party during a contested presidential primary season. We, rather than the often personally dedicated insiders of the Party, get to make our own will known through the counting of ballots in every state in the nation that conducts a presidential primary or caucus. Those of us who support Bernie Sanders have already made a strong impact on the Democratic Party through the success to date of Bernie Sander's once thought wildly improbable presidential run. They wanted to ignore us, they thought they could but they couldn't. A few weeks ago they made yet another concerted attempt to turn the page and relegate us again to the past. They wanted voting in California drained of further meaning. Why even bother, hey implied, the race is over?

It is that attitude that I find unforgivable, especially from a camp that eight years ago knew full well why California, and other late voting states, still mattered, irrespective of "the math". Assuming that hundreds of Democratic Super Delegates who now support Hillary Clinton don't discover very compelling reasons to switch to Bernie, Hillary will be our Democratic nominee. Under that likely scenario it will be official by the last day of our national convention. Under a similarly likely scenario we will have Party Unity by then as well. Whether that happens two days from tomorrow or two days into our convention is subject to negotiations, and it takes both sides to conduct a negotiation. I am not any kind of high up Democratic insider. I don't know what was negotiated between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in the final stage of their contest in 2008, or exactly when agreements between them were reached. I do know however that the fact that Hillary carried California over Barack was a relevant factor in those negotiations.

When it comes time to negotiate a contact between organized labor and management sometimes those talks go on past midnight of the day when a strike was threatened to be called. Sometimes a settlement is reached weeks earlier. It all depends on the issues on the table, the relative strength of the parties to the negotiations, how badly each side wants to avoid a strike, and yes, the skill of the negotiators. The deadline for Democratic Unity falls during the Convention in July. I hope a good deal is reached before then, I pray that a good deal is reached by then, but I am not in a position to second guess all of the specific tactics of the negotiators. For now I am focused on urging support for Bernie Sanders in the States voting tomorrow. My reasons for doing so ow are at least as strong as those advanced by Hillary's supporters back in 2008.

183 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
All who have already called for Sanders to unite behind Clinton will have to regain my respect (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 OP
Got news for ya, when you make a wholesale indictment of HRC's supporters, we only want one thing tonyt53 Jun 2016 #1
Strongly worded ... and I totally agree with you. NurseJackie Jun 2016 #6
They're rapidly cycling from whining to attacking to demanding we cater to them. stevenleser Jun 2016 #41
Where is the demand, Steve? Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #49
Your words "will HAVE TO regain your respect". Yep, that is a demand. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #80
A demand insists that something be done Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #98
They have nothing but attack, derision, hypersensitiveness, libdem4life Jun 2016 #104
the singular view of the universe is staggering. 'WILL Have TO' is a challenge in the opening MariaThinks Jun 2016 #128
Calling it a challange is at least more accurate than calling it a demand Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #163
This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jun 2016 #88
Look, Bernie is welcome to me to hang in as long as Hortensis Jun 2016 #148
You are a fine example of all that is wrong with the HRC team. I have never heard so much ciaobaby Jun 2016 #7
"Never Ever " "Pie in the Sky" thats their leader. bahrbearian Jun 2016 #24
it's a two way street. upaloopa Jun 2016 #106
Pretty sure I didn't "demand" anything - Peace, to you angry person. ciaobaby Jun 2016 #112
sure. whatever you say. unbelievable. MariaThinks Jun 2016 #129
Thanks - glad you agree. ciaobaby Jun 2016 #135
Yep. Another newbie DUer wanting longtermers to rateyes Jun 2016 #27
Oh for the day when 5 hides would get you tombstoned. rateyes Jun 2016 #29
and those tombstones were probably from bernie supporters trashing hillary and then MariaThinks Jun 2016 #131
You sound familiar. cui bono Jun 2016 #171
Seaman Obvious is obvious. n/t me b zola Jun 2016 #52
This message was self-deleted by its author artislife Jun 2016 #125
This post is a perfect example of the point of the OP 2banon Jun 2016 #76
It sure is. Duval Jun 2016 #139
a recent poll says 57% of Sanders supporters will vote for Hillary. That leaves 43% that will not. MariaThinks Jun 2016 #127
I'll get right on that nt firebrand80 Jun 2016 #2
I will not be able to overcome my revulsion at Hillary's stances on the issues. djean111 Jun 2016 #3
+1! pinebox Jun 2016 #4
That you think ANY of us leftynyc Jun 2016 #5
I'm amazed that mature voters would decide to vote (or not-vote) on whether their "feelings" ... NurseJackie Jun 2016 #11
This? in response to the OP? Intelligent gif for a very serious subject libdem4life Jun 2016 #105
Not a very serious subject. I am not a gracious winner, I am an angry winner. upaloopa Jun 2016 #111
Trump is an angry winner too. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #157
No one is voting "their feelings". Duval Jun 2016 #140
Then welcome President Trump as your next president. glowing Jun 2016 #14
Yawn leftynyc Jun 2016 #18
Voting for Hillary is not voting in my interests. rateyes Jun 2016 #31
Then vote for donnie leftynyc Jun 2016 #37
I will vote in my interests. And I don't care that rateyes Jun 2016 #61
If you don't "care".. why are you even in this thread? 2banon Jun 2016 #81
LOL leftynyc Jun 2016 #87
Perhaps you should read the OP again. Duval Jun 2016 #143
Oh, I'm very much in agreement with the OP.. 2banon Jun 2016 #150
Careful about your assumptions Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #19
I'VE never said Bernie should drop out. leftynyc Jun 2016 #20
And I didn't say you did Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #26
That was nasty and uncalled for Madam Mossfern Jun 2016 #28
LOL leftynyc Jun 2016 #40
So you respond in kind Madam Mossfern Jun 2016 #46
No idea leftynyc Jun 2016 #47
Anyone who uses "fee fees" is likely to be congenitally incapable of knowing when they TheKentuckian Jun 2016 #70
That so many leftynyc Jun 2016 #71
I think it's great that you presume to know what's in my best interest. Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #30
^^This^^ rateyes Jun 2016 #33
Thank you for articulating this. nt LaydeeBug Jun 2016 #173
+1. VulgarPoet Jun 2016 #8
I think the divide is too big this time around & it's not her supporters pinebox Jun 2016 #9
Lets face it. Most of the hard core BSS were not redstateblues Jun 2016 #32
I don't know about that per say pinebox Jun 2016 #39
It will be a disaster for the Republicans redstateblues Jun 2016 #152
I voted for the Democrat in every election since 1980. rateyes Jun 2016 #43
We will win without you. What is keeping you from leaving now? redstateblues Jun 2016 #155
You may win the battle. We will win the war. rateyes Jun 2016 #159
Since Hillary agrees with the republicans on many key issues, while Sanders agrees with them Doctor_J Jun 2016 #132
Brady Bill? Your equivalence of Hillary and Trump is a big pant load redstateblues Jun 2016 #153
Bull puckies--and posting it a bazillion times does not make it any less bull puckies. merrily Jun 2016 #133
You know that is not true. Duval Jun 2016 #141
Because I'm tired of Bernie or Busters threatening to give the White House to the Republicans redstateblues Jun 2016 #154
I believe that any negotiations should probably take place between the candidates. Tal Vez Jun 2016 #10
Just because I trust my candidate doesn't mean I'm going to follow him if I think he's wrong pengu Jun 2016 #54
I will not make common cause with those who hate me. SwampG8r Jun 2016 #12
Losing is rough. Been there done that. nt BootinUp Jun 2016 #13
Oh, the irony. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #15
Uh let's be honest here pinebox Jun 2016 #44
Hell, one of them linked to Stormfront a few months back QC Jun 2016 #89
Yeah I recall that pinebox Jun 2016 #93
And then she claimed that she had NO IDEA!!1!!! that it's a Nazi site. QC Jun 2016 #94
lol meanwhile their logos are all over the site pinebox Jun 2016 #96
plenty of bernie supporters won't vote for her Robbins Jun 2016 #72
Wow so much self-importance workinclasszero Jun 2016 #16
I'm sure you'll have no trouble with that Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #21
It's interesting that supporters of the anti-war candidate are not interested in peace and unity. LonePirate Jun 2016 #17
Are you suggesting I am not interested in peace and unity? Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #22
There's no contradiction pengu Jun 2016 #57
Dumbest post so far this month! Doctor_J Jun 2016 #119
You think it's dumb to shine a light on hatred and hypocrisy? LonePirate Jun 2016 #120
You think it's smart to compare Mrs Clinton's decades of war mongering to a nomination fight? Doctor_J Jun 2016 #121
Gotta love all the situational morality we're seeing nowadays! LonePirate Jun 2016 #122
What a load of shit. Phlem Jun 2016 #147
I guess leading by example on the issue of peace an unity is not in the cards. LonePirate Jun 2016 #149
+1 Spot on. Phlem Jun 2016 #146
That's some twisted peace of logic you've got there. Pun intended. :) Phlem Jun 2016 #145
The BoBs Tarc Jun 2016 #23
Great points and well said Cheese Sandwich Jun 2016 #25
I doubt that you were ever going to vote for the redstateblues Jun 2016 #38
I would've voted for Warren or O'Malley happily pengu Jun 2016 #58
that's the goal of machine politics: maximise voter investment, minimize voter involvement MisterP Jun 2016 #142
"We the people" is the same term the tea baggers, 3 percenters, and sovereign citizens use to make FSogol Jun 2016 #34
And they carry Ameican flags too Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #53
there is no changing the democratic party Robbins Jun 2016 #64
I heard some of them love puppies, too. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #66
I was probably addressing rhetoric more than puppies. FSogol Jun 2016 #86
It was a fairly absurd comment on rhetoric, a meaningless association. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #103
Have fun tomorrow, extremely pleasant and civil DUer. FSogol Jun 2016 #107
It's also the opening of the Preamble to the Constitution. QC Jun 2016 #91
Whoosh. FSogol Jun 2016 #97
So because of internet posters you might not vote MattP Jun 2016 #35
But I never said that , did I? Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #59
Just so you know...Bernie camp has not earned very much respect. Sheepshank Jun 2016 #36
Yep, and its getting worse. See my #41 above. nt stevenleser Jun 2016 #45
This. Bobbie Jo Jun 2016 #51
First off, I've never treated Hillary supporters that way Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #63
and as you may see all over DU, everything I have said is true and has come to pass. Sheepshank Jun 2016 #83
Have to leave the house now for awhile Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #99
I said nothig disrespectful about Hillary supporters Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #164
I'll work on it!!!! NCTraveler Jun 2016 #42
I'm really not a hard sell when folks are sincere Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #48
I love many Sanders supporter. NCTraveler Jun 2016 #50
I took both it and this as totally sincere Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #55
I've read your Journal. Keep your "respect," if that's what it looks like. nt BobbyDrake Jun 2016 #56
Fair enough. n/t Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #60
I've read your posts Trajan Jun 2016 #136
Enjoy your sad. I suspect it's going to last a while. nt BobbyDrake Jun 2016 #137
Another "you have to kiss my ass before I will help you" post. hack89 Jun 2016 #62
Not asking anyone to kiss my ass to get my support. rateyes Jun 2016 #65
But you are honest in your hate. I can respect that. hack89 Jun 2016 #68
You will be fighting me and the rest of us working rateyes Jun 2016 #74
That's fine - governments and parties need to be constantly pushed so they don't get complacent. hack89 Jun 2016 #78
I'm just 4 years behind you. And we are gonna do rateyes Jun 2016 #82
Another seeming case of either poor reading comprehension or attention deficit disorder Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #67
Hillary dropped out and conceded six weeks before the convention hack89 Jun 2016 #73
We can at least agree that she fought straight through California, right? Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #84
See my #41 above, it's worse than that. They are whining, attacking and demanding all at the stevenleser Jun 2016 #92
Excellent Post, Tom. Very Diplomatically put! :) 2banon Jun 2016 #69
You are so right felix_numinous Jun 2016 #75
Nice post but I have lost all respect for many of her supporters here and don't care what they do. Live and Learn Jun 2016 #77
.+1 840high Jun 2016 #90
So are you going to keep telling us that for another week. upaloopa Jun 2016 #113
I feel the same about your posts. Luckily, I won't have to see them soon. nt Live and Learn Jun 2016 #115
My energy will be focused on kicking Trumps orange ass. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #79
excellent OP, Tom shireen Jun 2016 #85
Will forward to Obama et al so they can calibrate their behavior this week accordingly BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #95
I'll put that on my 'to do list'.... comradebillyboy Jun 2016 #100
you lost mine bigtree Jun 2016 #101
He never said he refuses "to join with Democrats to defeat trump". Duval Jun 2016 #144
Sanders has already pledged himself to support the nominee. Orsino Jun 2016 #102
Me too. I'm not clear what point you are making Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #108
If Sanders endorses Clinton, would he lose your respect, too? n/t Orsino Jun 2016 #109
Of course not Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #110
It is not about us. But you. Are you wiiling to hand the WH to repugs. All yours to do. seabeyond Jun 2016 #114
There's something odd about the logic going on here frazzled Jun 2016 #116
She negotiated SOS... lmbradford Jun 2016 #161
No, I don't recall any terms frazzled Jun 2016 #170
this kind of nasty, insulting, nonsensical post is really beneath you geek tragedy Jun 2016 #117
Geek, if you actually care Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #168
That ship sailed months ago Doctor_J Jun 2016 #118
I'd allege the same as well were I irrational and could not support any statement I made... LanternWaste Jun 2016 #123
Speaking of irrationality, reply 17 in this thread compares people's views on the primary to Doctor_J Jun 2016 #130
This message was self-deleted by its author artislife Jun 2016 #124
Well, insofar as your respect matters to me, I'll do my best. MineralMan Jun 2016 #126
OP says "Not that my individual respect means a hill of beans to anyone" right there at the top. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #158
I take that as sincere Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #166
It's up to you MFM008 Jun 2016 #134
No thank you. Joe Nation Jun 2016 #138
I respect your right to do what you feel is best RandySF Jun 2016 #151
That's a bunch of self serving drama out of the campaign that revised the history of AIDS to serve Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #160
Well said. Enthusiast Jun 2016 #172
Well written.... WiffenPoof Jun 2016 #156
It's sure been interesting reading all of the replies Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #162
Your refusal to accept the truth of basic facts, and your poor choices are not my problem. baldguy Jun 2016 #165
Your refusal to actually read what I wrote is not my problem Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #167
They'll never achieve unity. HereSince1628 Jun 2016 #169
No one is begging or holding your hand. It's Hillary or Trump, not HRC or Tom Rinaldo LaydeeBug Jun 2016 #174
Another person who didn't actually read what I wrote n/t Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #175
I read it. It didn't *earn* my respect. nt LaydeeBug Jun 2016 #176
Nor does your lack of comment on any of its substance earn mine. n/t Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #177
See how tidy brevity can be? nt LaydeeBug Jun 2016 #178
Yup. That's how "Make America Great Again" gets accepted as a platform Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #179
Or how bloviating diatribes get defeated outright, like HRC nt LaydeeBug Jun 2016 #181
Really, just your title alone, the many times I have read. Gain your respect? Fuck that. seabeyond Jun 2016 #180
I was talking about a specific form of hypocracy Tom Rinaldo Jun 2016 #182
Tom, I called the negative, attacks and lies but don't think called for Sanders to get out. seabeyond Jun 2016 #183
 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
1. Got news for ya, when you make a wholesale indictment of HRC's supporters, we only want one thing
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jun 2016

and that is for you to go away. If Sander's doesn't man-up and face the facts, then he will once again expose himself to be all about one thing - Bernie. Time for his supporters to do the same thing. Enough with the crying foul at every primary. He lost.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
49. Where is the demand, Steve?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:52 AM
Jun 2016

Am I not free to choose who I respect and why? Did I make any threats? Hold my vote hostage? Anything?

And as a political writer, aren't you at least willing to comment on the substance of the OP?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
98. A demand insists that something be done
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:58 PM
Jun 2016

I don't care if anyone considers my respect worthy of anything, and I insist on nothing from any reader including yourself. A discussion of the points I made would be nice but not necessary

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
104. They have nothing but attack, derision, hypersensitiveness,
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jun 2016

personal attack, etc.

You'd think they were Losing.. Good article, BTW, heartfelt and measured. That's why the immediate dustbin barrage.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
128. the singular view of the universe is staggering. 'WILL Have TO' is a challenge in the opening
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:50 PM
Jun 2016

statement followed by 'what do you mean'.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
163. Calling it a challange is at least more accurate than calling it a demand
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jun 2016

I turn down challenges all the time if they don't seem worth my effort. I also admitted that my personal respect means little if anything to the vast majority of folks both here and elsewhere. I think I admitted that in the first sentence. After all the dirt that's been thrown around on this board so many here now express outrage over me not respecting the integrity of a position previously taken here by some? And then almost to a person are disinterested in even discussing the lengthy explanation I posted about why that is so? Weak.

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #49)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
148. Look, Bernie is welcome to me to hang in as long as
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:20 PM
Jun 2016

he's not destructive of the party, and I "approved" his last press conference. Not bad.

But Tom, you vastly underestimate how profoundly insulting the typical bernista message about me, for instance, is. Every hostile, dishonest slur about Hillary is supposed to be a slap at people like me too, and we know it.

I don't actually expect to ever respect people who behave that way, Tom, just move on and welcome common ground if it appears. They may become slightly more knowledgeable over time, or not, but I'm too old to believe that people get personality transplants. At my age I've known a bunch of people whose world view hasn't changed or deepened significantly in 50 years, and the capacity for self deception and ready hostility toward all who aren't "with" them are always...ready.

In "real" life, people stay away from religion and politics not because they can't keep from quarreling over their coffee but to avoid revelations that destroy respect, and with that friendships.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
7. You are a fine example of all that is wrong with the HRC team. I have never heard so much
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:02 AM
Jun 2016

negativity from one group as I do on this site from the Hillary camp. If you are so certain of victory you should simply back off and watch it happen. If you sincerely want unity than just a bit of civility would be a good place to start.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
106. it's a two way street.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:24 PM
Jun 2016

You lost, you didn't get your way, now you still demand that you get your way.

Have some humility.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
27. Yep. Another newbie DUer wanting longtermers to
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jun 2016

go away. Your profile: tatistics and Information
Account status: Active
Member since: Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:34 AM
Number of posts: 1,077
Number of posts, last 90 days: 1077
Favorite forum: General Discussion: Primaries, 683 posts in the last 90 days (63% of total posts)
Favorite group: Hillary Clinton, 110 posts in the last 90 days (10% of total posts)
Last post: Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:23 AM

Jury
Willing to serve on Juries: Yes
Chance of serving on Juries: 0% (explain)
1077 total posts: +11
47 days of membership: +5
20 or more posts in the last 90 days: +20
Not a Star member: +0
5 posts hidden in 90 days: -100
TOTAL: 0

Stay tuned. You are gonna get your wish.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
131. and those tombstones were probably from bernie supporters trashing hillary and then
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:52 PM
Jun 2016

alerting on responses.

Response to rateyes (Reply #27)

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
127. a recent poll says 57% of Sanders supporters will vote for Hillary. That leaves 43% that will not.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:49 PM
Jun 2016

Some will vote for Trump, some will write a candidate in, and some will not vote.

I think its a safe bet we have good representation from each group on this board and are wasting our time reaching out with realistic arguments and olive branches.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
3. I will not be able to overcome my revulsion at Hillary's stances on the issues.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:58 AM
Jun 2016

Also - I don't think it is possible to have a meaningful negotiation with a practiced liar.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
5. That you think ANY of us
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:59 AM
Jun 2016

are gong to get on our knees and beg you to do what is in your best interest is hilarious. That you would hold your vote hostage over anonymous posters on the internet is entirely your problem.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
11. I'm amazed that mature voters would decide to vote (or not-vote) on whether their "feelings" ...
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:06 AM
Jun 2016

... were hurt by anonymous posters on the internet. It's kinda sad really (assuming that they're being truthful).

When someone says things like that, I figure that they'd never vote for Hillary anyway ... so who cares what they demand of us?

Or ... they're not being truthful, and it's all a part of the bloodsport gamesmanship and scoring points by entertaining themselves online.

Either way ... It's all so silly. I can't take them seriously.






 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
105. This? in response to the OP? Intelligent gif for a very serious subject
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jun 2016

and well thought out and expressed OP. Inspired by your candidate..."What does it matter?"

"I can't take them seriously." Indeed.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
111. Not a very serious subject. I am not a gracious winner, I am an angry winner.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:36 PM
Jun 2016

You probably don't give a shit about how I fell after months of my candidate be lied about and slandered and attacked.

Well the feeling is mutual I'm sure.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
18. Yawn
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:26 AM
Jun 2016

Voting against your interests because of your hurt fees fees from anonymous people on the internet is pathetic. Do whatever you please.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
61. I will vote in my interests. And I don't care that
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:09 PM
Jun 2016

you don't care. You've made that abundantly clear this whole primary season. I believe you.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
81. If you don't "care".. why are you even in this thread?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:37 PM
Jun 2016

If you don't care, why engage in ad hominum with Bernie supporters?

If you don't care, why the hubris?

If you don't care, what the hell is your point?

If we were Trump supporters, we wouldn't be backing the FDR of our time.

Despicable position you take.

In our view, a vote for Hillary IS a vote for Trump.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
87. LOL
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:49 PM
Jun 2016

The entire premise of this OP is that it is the responsibility of DU Hillary supporters to bow and scrape to Bernie supporters to get them to vote for the Democrat. Got nothing to say about that? Just my attitude that they can look for someone to suck up to them someplace else? Don't like the truth and call it hubris? That's not my problem.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
150. Oh, I'm very much in agreement with the OP..
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:23 PM
Jun 2016

Don't see the need to add anything, it stands alone well enough.

As far as I'm concerned you folks made a striking and clear blow against FDR's political legacy for the party for all time in memorial, as there will be no other FDR candidate representing this party in future national elections.

Sanders is the real deal but your camp pissed on it and worse.

You think we're not aware of how much you could care less?

You and your camp have made your contempt for FDR policies and for those of us fighting to restore those policies abundantly clear.

But we'll carry on with our political reform agenda without your help thank you very much just the same.

ta ta








Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
19. Careful about your assumptions
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:26 AM
Jun 2016

I didn't even imply that I won't "support Hillary" as our nominee - I dare you to show anywhere where i did. I vote for many reasons, I don't always respect the person I vote for, but in this case I was talking about respect for one's arguments for taking a position. Those who have argued that Sanders needed to drop out made a case that I do not respect for the reasons cited. That is what I stated, not that I would refuse to vote for Hillary over it.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
40. LOL
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jun 2016

If you think THAT was nasty, you need a much thicker skin to talk about politics. I've been called a right winger, a bigot, a warmonger, a drone, stupid, corrupt - and that was in just the last month.

TheKentuckian

(25,018 posts)
70. Anyone who uses "fee fees" is likely to be congenitally incapable of knowing when they
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:24 PM
Jun 2016

are being nasty, it just comes part and parcel with being who the are.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
71. That so many
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:27 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie supporters are complete hypocrites about about the nastiness of their own is sincerely not my problem.

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
30. I think it's great that you presume to know what's in my best interest.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:37 AM
Jun 2016

But yeah, I've been holding my vote hostage for a while now and it's starting to look like I'm gonna have to shoot that sucker. Damn shame it had to come to that.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
9. I think the divide is too big this time around & it's not her supporters
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:04 AM
Jun 2016

but the ideologies which are different.

Bernie supporters are concerned with things which are more of a liberal stance where as Hillary supporters are more concerned with things of a blue dog stance. It's basically people concerned with the welfare of others and environmental issues VS. people concerned with business issues and the economy.

That is where the differences lie.


Those are 2 very big differences and we see that every day here on DU. Personally, I don't think a lot of Bernie supporters will come over to the Hillary side, sorry but I don't see it happening when so many Bernie supporters are from 3rd parties and independents, and there are more of those than there are Dems.

The defining differences are far too apart this time unlike in 2008. Obama and Hillary were much closer in ideology. This time, the bridge is a big one and it's been burned to the ground.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
32. Lets face it. Most of the hard core BSS were not
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:38 AM
Jun 2016

Voting Democratic anyway. This whole hostage withholding of votes in the GE If Bernie doesn't win is not honest. I'm willing to bet it's a lot of Nader voters still pissed off about something Al Gore didn't do. Mix in a bunch of Greenies as well.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
39. I don't know about that per say
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jun 2016

I'm not a Dem but an indy myself. I voted Obama both times but what it comes down to is we have a candidate who is seriously flawed & isn't trusted by the majority of Americans and hasn't been in a long while. This could spell disaster.

I don't see this having anything to do with Gore & Nader. If we're going to run with that logic, let's throw Perot in who helped elect Bill Clinton. 2 way street.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
152. It will be a disaster for the Republicans
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:27 PM
Jun 2016

I'll guarantee that you won't vote Democratic. Greenie maybe.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
43. I voted for the Democrat in every election since 1980.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:44 AM
Jun 2016

Not a Naderite. But I will not be casting a vote for Clinton or Trump. The day after the convention, this voter who has been a Democrat for 38 years is leaving this party. And I know many who will be walking away with me.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
155. We will win without you. What is keeping you from leaving now?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:35 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie has already been rejected by the majority of the voters. Donald Trump thanks you.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
159. You may win the battle. We will win the war.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:09 PM
Jun 2016

After I have my say at the DNC in July,the real work begins.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
132. Since Hillary agrees with the republicans on many key issues, while Sanders agrees with them
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:54 PM
Jun 2016

on none, you're pretty much full of shit to make this post.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
153. Brady Bill? Your equivalence of Hillary and Trump is a big pant load
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:31 PM
Jun 2016

Hillary was one of the most liberal senators in Congress. Not good enough for the purity party apparently but good enough for the 3,000,000+ voters that voted for Hillary

Tal Vez

(660 posts)
10. I believe that any negotiations should probably take place between the candidates.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:06 AM
Jun 2016

We are dealing with two professional politicians here. Since they entered the political world, everything that they've experienced has taught them to seek political agreements that will further their goals.

I have no doubt that Clinton and Sanders both want to find a way to pursue common goals. I don't think that they will have much trouble working things out.

And, the vast majority of their followers trust their candidates. As individuals, we all have to ask, "Do I trust my candidate?"

pengu

(462 posts)
54. Just because I trust my candidate doesn't mean I'm going to follow him if I think he's wrong
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:58 AM
Jun 2016

I can trust him while still not agreeing with him.

SwampG8r

(10,287 posts)
12. I will not make common cause with those who hate me.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:07 AM
Jun 2016

And anyone who has said the things i have read here about sanders from hrc supporters show they hate him and by extension me.
The single most honest man in our government has been dehumanized by her supporters in ways even republicans wouldnt touch.
I will not make common cause with those who hate me.

TwilightZone

(25,426 posts)
15. Oh, the irony.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:10 AM
Jun 2016

Your fellow DUers have insisted for months that Breitbart, Fox News, National Review, FACT, the Blaze, and Judicial Watch are the pillars of journalistic integrity, and you have the nerve to demand that Clinton supporters earn back *your* respect? That's laughable.

Further, 2008 and 2016 aren't comparable. Sanders is 800 delegates behind Clinton. Was Clinton 800 delegates behind Obama going into the final week? This race hasn't been close in months.

Personally, I don't care what you do. The vast majority of Sanders supporters in the real world - not the fantasyland echo chamber that DU has become - have already indicated that they will vote for Clinton in November. Once Sanders drops out and endorses her, the number will increase, and it will increase further as the rest have a little while to contemplate the possibility of President Donald Trump. If you're going to let a few anonymous internet posters influence your vote, you should probably take a step back and reevaluate your decision-making processes.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
44. Uh let's be honest here
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:44 AM
Jun 2016

I've seen your camp post links to WND and Breitbart as well. That is a 2 way street.

QC

(26,371 posts)
89. Hell, one of them linked to Stormfront a few months back
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:51 PM
Jun 2016

and is still a member, though she has been FFR for some time.

QC

(26,371 posts)
94. And then she claimed that she had NO IDEA!!1!!! that it's a Nazi site.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:57 PM
Jun 2016

Pull my other one, honey. It's got bells on it.

Robbins

(5,066 posts)
72. plenty of bernie supporters won't vote for her
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:27 PM
Jun 2016

many in real world can see no difference between her and republicans.she for crying out loud is appealing to bush donors saying she more repsents their values.Clinton is corporists and neocon.

I will be staying home on election day.I am going from democrat to liberal indepdent.I refuse to ever vote for any dem who
endorsed Clinton in this primary.that is why In Missouri i am not going to vote at all this year.I don't vote for right winger who
are against my self intrests like the social safety net and who support trade deals like TPP and support more war.Supporting clinton means you support all her right wing agenda.

and so called 800 delegate lead is 500 superdelegates.

The entire clinton family can go to hell for all i care.which is what i said about bush family too.no difference between these 2 family.and they sure love to hang out with each other.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
16. Wow so much self-importance
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:13 AM
Jun 2016

Berners can do what they want to do, I could care less.

I will try to live the remainder of my life without your respect, Anonymous Internet Poster but its gonna be tough.


Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
21. I'm sure you'll have no trouble with that
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:31 AM
Jun 2016

I am not so foolish as to believe you need my respect. I already said it isn't worth a hill of beans in the outer world. But I've been a member of DU since 2003. Some long time members know how much I respect them, even though we often take different stances. I haven't seen much comment though so far from Clinton supporters about the substance of what I wrote though.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
22. Are you suggesting I am not interested in peace and unity?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:32 AM
Jun 2016

If so, I think you glossed over what I wrote.

pengu

(462 posts)
57. There's no contradiction
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:00 PM
Jun 2016

We think your candidate is likely to start wars. Intraparty peace is irrelevant when measured against that.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
121. You think it's smart to compare Mrs Clinton's decades of war mongering to a nomination fight?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:29 PM
Jun 2016

Hundreds of thousands of people have actually died in the wars she's supported. You should be ashamed for comparing that to the primary campaign. But if you had any shame you wouldn't support her in the first place.

LonePirate

(13,407 posts)
122. Gotta love all the situational morality we're seeing nowadays!
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:40 PM
Jun 2016

It seems like some people preach peace but don't want to actualize it.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
147. What a load of shit.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:10 PM
Jun 2016

So if Bernie voted to fund the war in Iraq, after we got into that mess, he's for the Iraq war? What's the other choice, not fund the troops, but oops, then he doesn't support the troops.

He's never voted for "pre-emptive war" which completely hypocritical term in and of itself.

This is the difference between who we are voting for.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/sep/02/11-examples-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-hol/

gotta love the hollow morality being preached on DU.

LonePirate

(13,407 posts)
149. I guess leading by example on the issue of peace an unity is not in the cards.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:37 PM
Jun 2016

Some Sanders supporters claim they want peace but they seem unwilling to practice it themselves.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
145. That's some twisted peace of logic you've got there. Pun intended. :)
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:02 PM
Jun 2016

So if I'm being abused daily and all of a sudden I resist and start resisting I'm not interested in peace and unity?

Wow.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
25. Great points and well said
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jun 2016

There shouldn't be any pre-surrender. Bernie agreed to follow the rules of the Democratic Party nominating process. That's what he is doing. The result should be the result of the balance of forces on the floor of the convention, by the rules, nothing more, nothing less.

I do think however you might be overestimating how much the Hillary Clinton supporters actually care about winning us back. They don't seem to care much at all. And that attitude comes straight from the top, from the corporate lobbyists and power brokers who run the Democratic Party. Truth be told, they don't want us in their big tent. They don't want the Bernie voters because we are seen as troublemakers. They want us pushed out, marginalized, and discouraged. They want the lesson of 2016 to be that a grassroots progressive insurgency can not win. And they are already framing it as an ideological victory of neoliberalism over social democratic values like taxing the rich to pay for universal public services. Sure they are happy to have our votes as long as we don't ask for anything in return.

FSogol

(45,435 posts)
34. "We the people" is the same term the tea baggers, 3 percenters, and sovereign citizens use to make
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:40 AM
Jun 2016

their minority views seem like the majority view. Sanders ran a good race, but he came in second. The people of the Democratic party have selected HRC. Time to get on board and try to change our party from the inside.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
53. And they carry Ameican flags too
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:57 AM
Jun 2016

Should I disown that as well because of it? Our nation has a radical heritage, I will not surrender it to right wingers.

Get on board? Change our Party from the inside? I will vote Democratic in the Fall and I am Chair of our Town's Democratic Committee.

Robbins

(5,066 posts)
64. there is no changing the democratic party
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:20 PM
Jun 2016

they have proven for most part to be frauds.they aren't progressive.This entire race was fixed by clintons,DNC,and dem establishment.

liberals or progressives have no place In Democratic party anymore.they sould just rename it the clinton party.

we have 2 corporate necon partys now.Time to stop pretending this isn't the case.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
103. It was a fairly absurd comment on rhetoric, a meaningless association.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jun 2016

It was also transparent as fuck...and as good a reason as any to Ignore you.

Bye, Felicia...

QC

(26,371 posts)
91. It's also the opening of the Preamble to the Constitution.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:53 PM
Jun 2016

Perhaps you were out that day in school.

(I have it on good authority that wingnuts also eat, poop, and breathe.)

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
59. But I never said that , did I?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:04 PM
Jun 2016

I have no problem saying I will vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate in November. I've said that here often before, not that I had to in order to comment on the race. If you read my OP again it only challenges the argument that Sanders should be unifying the party now rather than still campaigning in California etc.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
36. Just so you know...Bernie camp has not earned very much respect.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:42 AM
Jun 2016

yet that camp that is losing by delegate counts, losing by popular vote counts, have trashed the Democratic Party at every turn, trashed Hillary at every turn, thrown every Hillary supporter and endorser under the bus, villified Super Delegates, then begged for their vote, and THEN wants Hillary supporters to court them, provide extra loving and maybe even a load of butt kissing...is truly barking up the the wrong tree.

I wish you luck wherever the political winds take you.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
63. First off, I've never treated Hillary supporters that way
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:15 PM
Jun 2016

I've posted a lot on GD-P, it would be easy to fact check me on that if you want.

Second, I am the Democratic Party as much as anyone is. I'm on the ballot this year as a Committeeman, I Chair our local Democratic Party Committee and we won every town wide race on 2015 (it's kind of purple in these parts).

But what I find interesting so far on this thread is not a single Hillary supporter has challenged any of my underlying argument about why it has been untimely for many to have already argued for Sanders to leave the race, especially given the choice Hillary herself made in 2008.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
83. and as you may see all over DU, everything I have said is true and has come to pass.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:39 PM
Jun 2016

And unfortunately aligning with a very vocal rude group has its disadvantages. Some of their negativity sticks like glue. Goes both ways.

There have been many many Hillary supporters that have never said one bad word about Bernie, have never personally had a negative engagement with a BS supporter. They are by nature respectful, yet those people are not part of your consideration in the OP. You already have their respect as a person, but yet you make the demand anyway because you have another agenda....there is a whole other group that you wish to vilify.

You know why you so glibly push the respectful people aside and demand respect of the group as a whole?...it's because it's natural to deal with the impressions that have provided us the bigger impact. The loudest, rudest, most popular, most obnoxious persons seem to gather way too much attention and seem to set the tone for the group.

You are trying to provide that you are different from your group and therefore deserve respect. In the most hypocritical manner, you have decided that you deserve respect based on the actions of the loud group...not those that are already respectful. For that I stand on my initial response to you.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
99. Have to leave the house now for awhile
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jun 2016

I'm not sure if there is any reply that I want not make to this yet since I don't have time to give reading it the time it deserves right now. I will though later.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
164. I said nothig disrespectful about Hillary supporters
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:47 PM
Jun 2016

I was very specific about what I addressed, it only concerned those who have argued that Sanders should end his campaign before all of the states had voted. The strongest language I used, even in that instance, was a lack of respect.

I associate myself with those who want/wanted Bernie Sanders to be the Democratic nominee. Many millions of us have taken that position through our votes. To deduce from that that I support whatever you feel is the worst behavior displayed by any others of the millions of pro-Sanders voters is a product of your own speculation only.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
50. I love many Sanders supporter.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:54 AM
Jun 2016

Overall, they have fought for my rights as a woman, often leading the way. That goes with other oppressed groups as well.

Many aspects of this primary have sucked but I don't forget who my friends are. I have also always been able to tell a friend to fuck off and then give them the shirt off my back the next day. Many would do the same for me.

I hope you see this as sincere. I broke it down in the most simple yet serious way to try and show you that my original post was sincere.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
65. Not asking anyone to kiss my ass to get my support.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:21 PM
Jun 2016

There is nothing she could promise that would make me support her. She doesn't keep promises. A dollar and a promise from Hillary is worth a dollar.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
68. But you are honest in your hate. I can respect that.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jun 2016

we will move on without you and without any drama.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
74. You will be fighting me and the rest of us working
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jun 2016

to take down the establishment and replacing it with a government that is responsive to the real needs of real people.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
78. That's fine - governments and parties need to be constantly pushed so they don't get complacent.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:32 PM
Jun 2016

I have seen a lot of change in my 60 years - I certainly expect to see more before I am gone.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
82. I'm just 4 years behind you. And we are gonna do
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:38 PM
Jun 2016

More than push. Many establishment Dems and Repubs need to enjoy their remaining time in office. They will be voted out soon.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
67. Another seeming case of either poor reading comprehension or attention deficit disorder
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:22 PM
Jun 2016

I never said I would not help Democrats win in November even if Hillary is our nominee. I didn't even imply it. I pointed out sound reasons why Sanders should remain in the race for now and why Hillary did the same when the choice was hers. I don't respect the arguments used to try to force Bernie out now, especially while the primaries are still being fought. I don't like hypocritical stances and I bet you don't either. Hillary hasn't argued that Sanders should leave the race (it would not look good if she did) but many of her supporters have. I did not generalize beyond that or make comments against Clinton.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
73. Hillary dropped out and conceded six weeks before the convention
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie can certainly wait until DC votes but if he stays in after that he is in uncharted territory because that is not what Hillary did in 2008.

There will not and cannot be a contested convention. Obama, Warren and the enter senior leadership of the Democratic party will endorse Hillary within the next two weeks. Bernie will look like a fool waving his hands and yelling "what about me". And Bernie is not a fool - he will accept reality and concede like Hillary did in 2008.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
84. We can at least agree that she fought straight through California, right?
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jun 2016

She essentially waited for the voter all to vote. That much at least. A lot of effort has been made by some Hillary supporters here and elsewhere to argue that Sanders should already have conceded - long ago in fact,

I suppose my OP subject line came off a little too provocative for some to get much past it. Others I have used at times were too dull for people to even click on. I tried to point out some hypocrisy, but most of what I wrote tried to be thoughtful, making the case for staying in until party unity negotiations reach conclusion, and explaining why leverage mattered and how early concessions lessen it.

I expect the Convention to come together, but each cycle is different. Hillary did go on to become Secretary of State, who knows for sure what was said between the candidate camps after the California vote that may have paved the way for that. In 2008 I was a Clinton supporter who moved over to Obama after the Oregon primary when it was clear to me he would be the nominee. I was looking ahead toward party unity then, not asking Hillary to withdraw, but I got truck loads of crap from Hillary supporters at the time for "defecting". A lot of them were PUMA's who planned never to support Obama.

Like I said above, the deadline for Democratic unity is the Convention, the time between the primaries and then is a negotiating period. I expect and want party unity by then at the latest also.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
92. See my #41 above, it's worse than that. They are whining, attacking and demanding all at the
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:55 PM
Jun 2016

same time.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
69. Excellent Post, Tom. Very Diplomatically put! :)
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:24 PM
Jun 2016

If I was in the position to appoint you ambassador, I would !

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
75. You are so right
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jun 2016

---> At this point in the cycle it is not only about winning or losing, it is also about leverage.

Absolutely, because neither Clintons or Trump will represent any of us, in fact both of them have demonstrated HOSTILITY toward the left. Why on Earth would we support them, we would have to be nuts.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
77. Nice post but I have lost all respect for many of her supporters here and don't care what they do.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:31 PM
Jun 2016

But, their ugliness has nothing to do with why I can't vote for Hillary. Her actions alone are the reason I can't.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
113. So are you going to keep telling us that for another week.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:40 PM
Jun 2016

I think everyone is so tired of being told why you will not vote for Hillary. Personally I don't care why you won't vote for Hillary.

I think you should vote against Trump though.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
79. My energy will be focused on kicking Trumps orange ass.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 12:34 PM
Jun 2016

Let's get together for a virtual coffee on November 9th to hash out our differences.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
101. you lost mine
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:06 PM
Jun 2016

...thinking you're the only one with a grievance in this campaign.

Do what the hell you want. If you still refuse to join with Democrats to defeat trump. you'll be on the wrong side of history. Thinking it matters what I do or say to you in this campaign is a first class delusion.

I got news for you, the losing campaign doesn't dictate the convention. Disruptors aren't going to be given some sort of special consideration - they'll just disrupt and the party will do what it can to avoid having our nomination process derailed by sore losers who think they're entitled to more than the majority of voters in this election.

 

Duval

(4,280 posts)
144. He never said he refuses "to join with Democrats to defeat trump".
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:02 PM
Jun 2016

Please read his post again. Sigh!

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
108. Me too. I'm not clear what point you are making
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:30 PM
Jun 2016

...but that's probably just me. Gotta run now, be back later.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
110. Of course not
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:35 PM
Jun 2016

I never said those who endorsed Hillary lost my respect. I mentioned those who tried to force Sanders out of the race prior to the end of voting, which is something Hillary herself refused to do in 2008. That's all. Read it again.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
116. There's something odd about the logic going on here
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 01:58 PM
Jun 2016

On June 7, Hillary Clinton suspended her campaign and actually conceded the primary (even though the gap between their pledged delegates was far smaller--only about 100 delegates). And that day she endorsed Obama. She did not vow to fight on to the convention in order to dictate or even influence the presumptive nominee's policy stands. She didn't claim bragging rights for coming close (and she came a heck of a lot closer than Sanders has). She also didn't complain about the system being rigged.

Here is part of what she said that day:

"The way to continue our fight now, to accomplish the goals for which we stand, is to take our energy, our passion, our strength, and do all we can to help elect Barack Obama as the next president of the United States," Clinton said.

"Today, as I suspend my campaign, I congratulated him on the victory he has won. ... I endorse him and throw my full support behind him."


What I have found so odd, and distressing, over these past few months, is the presumption on Sanders's part, and by extension on the part of his supporters, that he somehow has the right to hold sway over the victor and over the convention because ... well, because he came in second in a two person race. And I can only wonder whether he has the chutzpah to put forth such an unprecedented presumption because ... well, because she is a woman and he is the man. Why would I think such a thing? First, because no one has ever done this to the winning candidate before. And second, because I can't get out of my head that time he stood at the podium and brushed his wife away, gruffly saying something to the effect of "don't stand next to me." I remain shocked about that little moment still, because as a woman, I can never in a million years imagine my husband dismissing me like that in public. And I can't get that humiliation of a woman out of my head.

I have never been one to say that Sanders should drop out before all the primaries have been conducted or until the other candidate irrefutably achieves the requisite number of delegates to win on the first round of voting at the convention. (That is what Clinton did in 2008, several days after Obama claimed victory by virtue of his pledged plus super- delegate commitments.) Let the voting go on by all means. But "taking it to the convention" and giving his supporters the false idea that this will be a contested convention is sheer hubris. And I refuse to cede my opinion on that. I don't have to respect Bernie Sanders for having lost this primary to the winner ... unless he makes this about a united party standing behind its new presumptive leader instead of a hissy fit about his own sense of entitlement and righteousness. And I honestly don't care what you think about that.

I also don't care whether you respect me. I do request that you respect the nominee of the Democratic Party ... the one the PEOPLE elected.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
170. No, I don't recall any terms
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 11:24 PM
Jun 2016

There were talks after the November election, as there are with any prospective cabinet appointment by the president elect. But there was no "deal"--because there didn't need to be. She lost the nomination. Obama had already won the presidency. He could have chosen anyone he wanted. She had ZERO leverage over him. Zero. It was his choice, and he famously talked about the value of having a "team of rivals," using Lincoln as his model. Indeed, an article from the time emphasizes his thinking:

The thread that binds these names together isn’t ideology but a devotion to a kind of hard-nosed, even ruthless pragmatism. Moreover, Obama’s appointments to critical posts reflect an inclination toward people with deep institutional expertise and major-league political chops, who can effectively drive or implement an agenda. ... But choosing Hillary demonstrates more than merely get-her-done, mission-driven hardheadedness. It demonstrates that Obama has finally learned the political power of magnanimity—or least the perception thereof. It demonstrates strength, whereas selecting her as his running mate would have displayed the opposite (the stories would all have been about how he did it because he had no choice).

http://nymag.com/news/politics/powergrid/52428/index1.html



The idea that there were some kind of negotiation where she would play nice at the convention in return for a seat at the table is just something the OP has made up or surmised.
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
117. this kind of nasty, insulting, nonsensical post is really beneath you
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 02:28 PM
Jun 2016

Clinton will clinch the nomination tomorrow.

Failing to make war against reality is not a character defect

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
168. Geek, if you actually care
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:01 PM
Jun 2016

...read some of the last few posts I made, especially the one near the bottom of this thread. I said nothing about Clinton not "clinching" tomorrow just to make one simple observation. I did talk about why it was important to run this campaign to it's conclusion with the last states voting however.

Seriously, it's laughable to call this particular OP nasty and insulting for GD-P

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
118. That ship sailed months ago
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:09 PM
Jun 2016

They (the candidate and her supporters) are mostly right wingers who don't seem to have any principles at all, at least when it comes to supporting Sanders progressive goals. Hillary has either turned her cultists into republicans, or exposed them as republicans. And then there are the ones like leser and cha and wc0 who suddenly love the candidate they detested not long ago. Either way I'm not going to help them destroy what's left of the country that the democrats built in the 20th century.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
123. I'd allege the same as well were I irrational and could not support any statement I made...
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:42 PM
Jun 2016

I'd allege the same as well were I irrational and could not support any statement I made...

(but we'll never admit to being irrational-- and if anyone asks us for objective evidence to support our allegations, we'll just tell them "I'm not doing your homework for you!" because that's irrational as well, and we value the hobgoblin of consistency....)

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
130. Speaking of irrationality, reply 17 in this thread compares people's views on the primary to
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:51 PM
Jun 2016

Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Honduras. There is a certain mental deficiency among many in Hillary's cult that I won't be a part of.

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
158. OP says "Not that my individual respect means a hill of beans to anyone" right there at the top.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:06 PM
Jun 2016

Thus making your snark redundant to the self deprecating language the author included. Most of the comments bashing the OP actually do not seem to have read it at all. That's always sad to see.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
166. I take that as sincere
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:54 PM
Jun 2016

Thank you for caring. I don't remember if you have pushed for Sanders to exit the race early, but even with those who I feel did, I know it gets heated around here. A relatively short period of shared common purpose and sanity around here will do a lot to restore the respect that has been lost among many of us of late.

RandySF

(58,454 posts)
151. I respect your right to do what you feel is best
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jun 2016

But there's nothing for Us to concede after the behavior we all witnessed from the Sanders movement.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
160. That's a bunch of self serving drama out of the campaign that revised the history of AIDS to serve
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:11 PM
Jun 2016

Ronald Reagan, which went on a Media and DU blitz with 'That's not Bernie in those photos' lies, claimed 'chairs and bottles were thrown' when no such thing happened.

Born into this Party and the Clinton campaign has been the most disappointing in verbiage and in conduct of my lifetime. Ronald Reagan? Obviously Hillary's end of the Party is not well informed and has very little in common with people like me. It's sad news, but it's a fact.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
162. It's sure been interesting reading all of the replies
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:25 PM
Jun 2016

So many take off in odd directions. Here are some of the things this OP did NOT do:

It did not say one negative word about Hillary Clinton

It did not say screw party unity.

It did not threaten to withhold a vote from the Democratic nominee if it isn't the person I supported.

It did not say anything negative about the choice many have made to support Hillary Clinton for President.

It did not claim, barring any very damning and dramatic new developments, that Hillary Clinton might not win the Democratic nomination for President.

It did not make any negative characterizations about Hillary supporters in general.

I find it pretty interesting that so many of the replies to what I originally wrote either assume or out right say that I made one or more of the above statements (which I did not). Here is what I did say

I made the outrageous attack of threatening to withhold my personal respect for a time to those who tried to force Bernie out of this race prematurely, while simultaneously professing support for a candidate who also refused to bow out of the race until all of the voters had voted, despite the then certainty of "the Math" the last time she ran for President.

I pointedly did not claim that my personal respect held any great importance, political or otherwise

I pointed out that there is more than one reason to stay in the race until all the voters get their say.

I pointed out that traditionally "party unity" is measured by what goes on at the Democratic National Convention, not by the give and take preceding it.

I said I prayed for party unity by the close of the convention if not before then

And I pointed out the obvious, that politics is politics and that there is always some horse trading involved in assembling a formidable coalition behind any winning candidate.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
165. Your refusal to accept the truth of basic facts, and your poor choices are not my problem.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:51 PM
Jun 2016

If you refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee in Nov, then you're a Trumpist.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
167. Your refusal to actually read what I wrote is not my problem
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:56 PM
Jun 2016

If you had you would know why your comment is so far off base.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
169. They'll never achieve unity.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 10:01 PM
Jun 2016

about 25% of Sanders supporters won't stand for the winner take all mentality being pushed by somewhat similar fraction of Clinton supporters.

 

LaydeeBug

(10,291 posts)
174. No one is begging or holding your hand. It's Hillary or Trump, not HRC or Tom Rinaldo
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:41 AM
Jun 2016

we will fight this with or without you.

Earn a spot with us, since you clearly think the opposite is true. (which is hilarious)

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
179. Yup. That's how "Make America Great Again" gets accepted as a platform
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:25 AM
Jun 2016

Does away with all those nasty details and nuances. (no I'm not claiming that is your philosophy - just pointing out how twitter like discourse naturally devolves)

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
182. I was talking about a specific form of hypocracy
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:38 AM
Jun 2016

addressed only to those who literally wanted Bernie out of this race before all the voters had voted, while simultaneously professing support for a candidate who also refused to bow out of the race until all of the voters had voted in 2008, despite the certainty of "the Math" that time also.

I don't and never did have a problem with anyone simply supporting Hillary, or with anyone who believed that a Clinton win was inevitable, or with anyone preaching the need for Democrats to unite behind a nominee to defeat Trump in the Fall.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
183. Tom, I called the negative, attacks and lies but don't think called for Sanders to get out.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:46 AM
Jun 2016

BUT.... The numbers weren't even close to being the same in '08 and they are in 2016.

I didn't read your post so I do not know what you were specifically talking about, but I do not owe you earning your respect. So the title is what was bothering me.

Anyway, thank you for clarifying even though I did not put the time into reading your post.

It is all good.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»All who have already call...