2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAn alternate history...
- What if the Democratic party leadership had recognized early on that Bernie Sanders had tapped into something significant and instead of trying to smear it on their candidate of choice, backed his campaign instead?
- What if the mainstream media had covered the Sanders campaign as the unprecedented phenomena it is?
- What if Hillary Clinton realized the historic prize of becoming the first woman president wasn't really worth bashing a genuine campaign of the people?
Impossible as this may seem, I think the party would be in much better shape than it is right now. This would have convinced a whole group of doubters that the democratic party is more than a puppet organization of the financial sector and actually has the guts to be a party of the people.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)SMH
tom-servo
(185 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)OK, while I didn't like your OP, that was pretty good.
840high
(17,196 posts)boston bean
(36,220 posts)Cheated by people who backed the wiinner? I don't think so.
Welcome to the world of political campaigning. Votes are made, support is provided and someone wins. I know, it sounds to boring... But it is what it is.
tom-servo
(185 posts)... I think they are missing something.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)Bernie lost, fair and square.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)Don't it always seem to go,
that you don't know what you've got till it's gone....
They've got what they want now. No reason to change. Nothing else matters
The rest of us, including the planet, are screwed.
Generic Brad
(14,274 posts)They want to doom mankind? They wish to ruin the planet? They voted to hurt the majority of Americans?
The majority of us voted for something with open hearts and good intentions. We all desire to make the world a better place. I feel very sad for those of us who have demonized each other to the point where they can no longer look for our areas of agreement with their fellow citizens and work together to build some form of the positive future we desire. And this sentiment of mine extends beyond the primaries. I feel that way about the general election as well.
We have more that binds us together. We all owe it to one another to respectfully work together to accomplish what we can with what we have in front so as many people benefit as possible.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027898122
Generic Brad
(14,274 posts)I feel very sad you feel that way. I wish you well and will fight on your behalf even though you think otherwise.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)Clinton represents and embodies everything that Bernie has been against. I support Bernie for these reasons.
I will never support a wall street puppet again regardless of which party they claim.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)How the hell does a candidate who fills stadiums lose to a candidate who can't even fill a gymnasium? It's like the emperor has no clothes.
brush
(53,763 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Elections are not won by filling stadiums. They're won by getting the most votes.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)to anyone that she would be in trouble, unless serious rigging were taking place. If requires extraordinary contortions of logic to think otherwise.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)The vast majority of voters couldn't have less interest in attending a rally. Why is that so hard to grasp?
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)But I do feel like the deck was somewhat stacked against him, and that the party establishment didn't take him seriously enough.
I also think there are a lot of issues with voter suppression/poorly run elections in many states, but I think in most cases it was the result of Republican cuts to funding of the voting apparatus and incompetence/unpreparedness by local election officials, not some grand conspiracy. Still, I think both sides should be concerned about the issues that prevented some people from voting in the primary, because if they are not addressed prior to November they will probably hurt Hillary more than they hurt Trump.
LexVegas
(6,050 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)I never dreamed I would be leaving the party. But now I will be.
No, it is now just a puppet.
artyteacher
(598 posts)He was unelectable from the beginning. Too many communist connections. They've been extremely kind to him
tom-servo
(185 posts)indigoth
(135 posts)He polls better against trump than Hillary.
And he has been elected to public office for DECADES ... and has served LONGER than Hillary has
But you say he's "unelectable". Really?
Smh
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If the United States was 97 percent white like Vermont is, then Bernie probably would've won.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)If America were entirely white, America would be the most socialist country in the West.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'd be curious to see it in its full context.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's something I've heard attributed to him tons but I've never seen an actual cite. Let me dig some.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Much appreciated.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's pathetic, on FB and such, you can really tell the right wingers' REAL problem with any social program. They are afraid non-white people might get some help.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Leftists were ecstatic: a socialist winning over middle America!
...
With Clintons nomination a lock, liberals have become even more furious and dismissive of white workers. Commenting on Sanderss West Virginia victory, they were quick to point out that a felon running against Obama in the same state in 2012 got nearly half as many votes. They crowed about how some of both Bernie and Clintons voters said Trump was their real number one choice, and much was made of how Sanders overwhelmingly won voters who want less liberal policies than Obamas.
Conveniently lost in the noise is the fact that Sanders won an even bigger share of voters who want more liberal ones.
The media takeaway was clear: somehow, someway, West Virginias vote for a Jewish socialist Brooklyn native was a vote for racism. I dont want to say it, said Chris Matthews on election night but West Virginian voters are, you know conservative on social issues but theres another word for that. . .
MSNBCs Alex Seitz-Wald claimed, Many attributed the outcome to West Virginia voters discomfort with Obamas race. The state is one of the whitest in the country. To be fair, its now widely known that Hillary Clinton keeps hot sauce in her purse at all times.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/white-workers-bernie-sanders-clinton-primary-racism/
So West Virginia voters are against socialism because POC in other states will benefit from the same policies they would? I mean, that is what your argument effectively is, right? It's a theory, one which I don't really find plausible though. I don't mean that as a strawman, it simply seems to be the logical conclusion of your theory.
What about Indiana then? What about Michigan, where white voters backed Sanders and social democracy despite a large portion of POC within the state? (if that theory held, wouldn't they have backed him in fewer numbers?)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I'll wait.
Sanders explicitly praised the economy of the 1950s.
Again. I'll wait.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)I'm speaking about the present time. I don't know what "Unpack that" means. Obviously the 1950s were deeply unfair to POC.
I think I made my point rather clearly.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I'm not really sure that's true.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)raging moderate
(4,297 posts)Before the Reagan Revolution and the Bush-Cheney regime lowered their taxes to the point where the wealth of the US was re-distributed mainly to the top 1%.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It was integral. So was sexism. Women and people of color were excluded from most jobs, which drove up the wages of the white men who had them, high enough that "one earner" (rarely made explicit: one white male earner) could support a family, a concept that was pretty much unknown before WWII.
With employers having to compete over (relatively) scarce white male workers, wages (for the white males) were pushed up, which meant an income-based tax system could cover a fairly broad array of social spending (which, in the nature of things, went disproportionately to the people who were earning the incomes that paid those taxes, and indeed expansion of that spending was strongly and even violently resisted).
Once those exclusionary policies were at least notionally taken out of the equation, the floor for white wages that created collapsed. And so, unsurprisingly, white male wages have stagnated or even sunk since 1970, while wages for women and minorities have risen pretty dramatically, as has their labor force participation.
brush
(53,763 posts)Vermont is nearly all-white.
Sanders for the most part, did poorly in large, diverse states so it's not that surprising that he lost.
The most recent proof of that is California, which for some reason, his campaign thought he was going to win.
And the whole thing of going on to DC is so ignoring the obvious it's silly DC is majority POC.
I mean what does he think is going to happen there but another loss?
He just doesn't resonate with POC and you can't win the Dem nomination without that support.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)White populism has turned on PoC multiple times in American history and so unsurprisingly there's a level of skepticism of it among PoC.
brush
(53,763 posts)BobbyDrake
(2,542 posts)GE polls to be wildly inaccurate compared to the final results.
Besides, everyone knows that Bernie only polls higher because Clinton's voters do the right thing and back him regardless, while it's Sanders' selfish supporters who can't tell pollsters that they'd back Clinton in the general election.
The political pyromaniacs need to understand that the Democratic Party will not run on a platform of "Burn it all down!"
tom-servo
(185 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)Are you really a teacher?.. of art?
Well, I am a musician, 20 years or so an artist-in-residence at a major American conservatory, and even I know better than that.
artyteacher
(598 posts)Have to do with knowing a majority of Americans aren't ready for someone who honeymooned in Moscow, praised communists, and praised bread ones.
I don't care myself, but it's a big country and a lot of Americans are easily swayed.
And that's just the tip of the ice berg.
Hey, saying you're going to raise taxes is enough to doom him with most livs.
panader0
(25,816 posts)You know, where Bernie was mayor?
And what does "praised bread ones" mean?
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)Moscow's US sister city is Chicago. Burlington's Russian sister city is Yaroslavl.
athena
(4,187 posts)Women can be misogynists, too, but they usually don't say things like this:
To you, perhaps, it's all about HRC wanting to "become" the first woman president. In other words, we're back to the "she's too ambitious" argument. In fact, this is not about HRC wanting to become anything; it's about 50% of the population being represented at the top level of government. I am grateful to Hillary Clinton for giving us an opportunity to have a woman president in our lifetime.
I won't even go into pitting equality for women against "a genuine campaign of the people." Clearly, women are not "people" in the eyes of some people. We're just a special interest group.
If we were talking about any other type of minority -- Black people, Asians, native Americans, Muslims, LGBT, Jewish people -- we wouldn't be seeing this kind of insensitivity about the idea of equality.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)tom-servo
(185 posts)... great things in the furthering of gender equality. She's been a role model for women in my generation, but there will be many great woman presidents. At this moment in time, I think, Bernie Sanders is a unique candidate.
sarae
(3,284 posts)is a moment in which more girls grow up without having these important role models. Female role models ARE important.
I'm tired of the double standards and the misogyny, and frankly, tired of clueless men.
So. Fucking. Tired.
tom-servo
(185 posts)... by clueless women just because I disagree with them. Fortunately there is a new generation of women who are secure enough to measure a candidate by their record and platform and not by their gender.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Identity politics is shallow, destructive nonsense. I'm a woman, and I don't give two shits about that whole "first woman president" blather when the potential subject of those rapturous effusions is a venal, warmongering corporatist.
athena
(4,187 posts)I'm always amused when someone posts the equivalent of, "Look at me! I'm a woman, and I support Bernie and can't stand Hillary!" as if that proves anything. We feminists never said all women are feminists or are even familiar with feminist ideas. Only someone who has never read much about feminism could think otherwise. Only someone who has never been hurt by sexism could call equality for women "identity politics" and not care that she is not fairly represented in government.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)And I stand by my statement about identity politics precisely for that reason. As for the rest of that didactic twaddle, well...use your imagination.
athena
(4,187 posts)No feminist would call feminism "identity politics".
"Feminism" is a word that means something. It's not just a label you can attach to yourself, regardless of your opinions.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Bye, Felicia...
athena
(4,187 posts)as well as a Hillary-hating "feminist" who couldn't care less about equal representation in government?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Wow, you're really bad at this.
Do continue...this is entertaining enough to leave you off Ignore for a few more posts.
athena
(4,187 posts)You seem to be here to insult people, not to have a discussion. It's interesting that someone would be so amused by insulting people and watching their reaction. Then again, there is no accounting for taste.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)This is fun.
As for my purpose for being here, I had all of five people on my Ignore list for years, and seldom got hides (despite having some political positions unpopular with the more alert-prone contingent here). I un-Trashed GD: P in February...and now have c. 350 on Ignore. If my reason for being here has shifted (and in all honesty, it may have...I've largely given up on this horribly dysfunctional community), I'd offer that there has been plenty of motivation for that to occur. So many Hillary supporters have been absolutely toxic in this shitshow of a primary season, and I'm no saint. I bite back. Tough shit.
"Not worth the prize"?? SMH. I guess women are second class citizens...
FSogol
(45,470 posts)What if he hired competent professionals to run his campaign in lieu of Jeff Weaver?
What if he coupled his excellent social media and word of mouth campaign into a good ground game like Obama did?
What if he made registering people to vote Democratic the focus of his rallies?
What if he had combined racial justice with economic justice earlier in his campaign in an appeal to African Americans?
Impossible as this may seem, I think his campaign would be in much better shape than it is right now. This would have convinced a whole group of Democrats that the Sanders campaign is more than a group of malcontents that actually has the guts to show up and vote instead of just crying foul over everything.
What if?
tom-servo
(185 posts)... but the fact remains that the Sanders campaign is an undeniable campaign of the people. There's no way around that.
FSogol
(45,470 posts)Aren't the people voting for other candidates people too?
tom-servo
(185 posts)... will vote for someone. If "the people" hadn't made Bernie Sanders stick out, everyone would have voted for Hillary Clinton.
FSogol
(45,470 posts)tom-servo
(185 posts)... some sort of achievement. If Bernie Sanders wasn't in the race, Hillary Clinton could have slept through entire primary.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)PJMcK
(22,025 posts)theboss
(10,491 posts)Honestly, this feels like the part where Bernie breaks into "Empty Tables and Empty Chairs."
... the only reason we are even talking about Bernie Sanders is because of a very surprising groundswell of support for him. His campaign was paid for and driven by "the people" in the strictest sense of the phrase. That is why I call it a "campaign of the people". i do wish we would keep in mind what is difficult and what isn't. Hillary Clinton getting votes isn't difficult, Bernie Sanders getting votes is.
Blue_Adept
(6,397 posts)This has been the disappointing side of his campaign. There simply was no experience with running a national campaign, which ruins many a good politician, and he wasn't able to bring in the right people to really do it or allow those he had to go full on with it. There were some significant missteps that to many supporters were signs of him being more a man of the people than a pol, but it was what doomed him from making significant inroads.
theboss
(10,491 posts)I don't understand why people don't see that glaring problem.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)PJMcK
(22,025 posts)The continuous vitriol that DU members spew at one another is unbelievable and tiresome. One's argument is diminished when a poster resorts to vulgarity or personal attacks. Your call for civility is wonderful and more people on this site should reconsider their aggressiveness.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Not least of which because it doesn't do any good in terms of winning people to your side. If one Bernie supporter is affected in a positive way from my being civil and it softens him/her toward Hillary, then I am doing something right. I'm not claiming I'm changing millions of hearts and minds over here, lol, but it's a start.
I also feel better about myself when I am the bigger person. It's really quite a selfish motivation! I went through the 08 race here (under another name) full of vitriol, furious and sad when Hillary lost. I didn't handle it well. I felt like crap about myself when I logged off back then. It was toxic for me to be directing that rage at other people.
The new rules should help.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)Where he still thinks he has a path to the nomination.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)There is no way in the world that Sander could win a General...way too much baggage. He would be swiftboated out of the race.
tom-servo
(185 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I won't post the details, (wrong to post shite about Dems) but here is a link...there are others...and there is more stuff out there. I live in Ohio...Bernie would never win Ohio after swiftboating by the GOP...there is a reason the GOP wanted Bernie and Trump still wants him.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)SMH
Octafish
(55,745 posts)SMFH
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)BobbyDrake
(2,542 posts)try some self-reflection instead.
"What was wrong with our message, or the delivery of it, that did not convince a majority of Democrats to support us? Was there a better way to express our ideas that did not involve so much anger and negativity?"
"What was wrong with our tactics of personally insulting anyone who did not already agree with us? Would we have had better results trying to win people over rather than demanding that they comply? Did our obvious litmus test serve us well, or did it prevent outsiders from even wanting to be associated with us?"
"What was wrong with our membership, that we believed that online harassment campaigns of Democratic officials who were not doing as we demanded was somehow going to make super-delegates switch to our candidate? Why did we adopt the tactics of the reviled and disgusting Gamer-Gater movement, and somehow think that would be effective?"
"What part of getting upset at the very existence of super-delegates, and then demanding that they support Bernie when it became clear he wouldn't win a majority of pledged delegates, was not blatantly hypocritical? Why did we assume that the Democratic Party would overturn the will of a majority of voters in a democratic election for no other reason than that we believed we were entitled to them doing just that?"
Bernie's supporters have some soul-searching to do, IMO, before they start trying to lay blame with others for their candidate's loss.
tom-servo
(185 posts)... it is about the loss for a set of ideals that a particular person embodies for a particular point in time.
BobbyDrake
(2,542 posts)"What if the mainstream media had covered the Sanders campaign as the unprecedented phenomena it is?"
Bernie's campaign was neither unprecedented nor a phenomenon, at least not in the eyes of anyone outside its misinformation bubble. Historically, a lot of far-left candidates have run, and some have even won the nomination. History tells us such men went on to suffer historic losses in their general elections.
tom-servo
(185 posts)... is unprecedented.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)as much as you do?
Jesus fucking christ bro, we hold elections and declare the person with the most votes the winner.
He
Didn't
Fucking
Win.
tom-servo
(185 posts)... or about winning or losing. I can't see why some people don't see that. It has to do with the support of a set of ideas.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)1. The party leadership didn't cater or cajole either presidential candidate.
2. The media does not exist to give Bernie Sanders puff piece coverage. This isn't the USSR, we don't do Pravda.
3. The 3rd one is the most absurd, "...wasn't really worth bashing a genuine campaign of the people"
When we hold elections, we have candidates with competing and contrasting ideas on what to do going forward. Your "campaign of the people" saw more voters turn out to disagree with it than agree with it. That's how we determine election winners and thus candidates.
Bernie's ideas did not win over most voters. This wasn't because of party sabotage, media disinterest or anything but the very simple fact that more voters disagreed than agreed.
tom-servo
(185 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)I figure the reforms won't come online til sometime late on the 16th, so they'll have most of the day to sort themselves out one last time.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)14th is DC's primary.
15th is the get-it-out-of-your-system-day.
16th on the dot is the new DU.
Response to Tarc (Reply #21)
Tarc This message was self-deleted by its author.
PJMcK
(22,025 posts)The fact is Hillary Clinton won the primary and Bernie Sanders lost. And it wasn't even that close considering the popular vote totals and all the mathematical variations that have been proposed.
Let's move on.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...and according to some Hillary supporters, speaking of alternate histories, 44-56 is some sort of amazing walloping win.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)I mean Obama's 2008 win over McCain was considered a borderline landslide, and that was 52.9%-45.7%.
aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)You might as well fantasize about the rich voluntarily giving their wealth to the government to make a better society.
What's the point?
tom-servo
(185 posts)aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)I'm tired of pretending that any of this will mean a difference.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)tom-servo
(185 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)THAT, the ugliness of all American national politics, is what he was running against.
tom-servo
(185 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)If only Putin wasn't such a buffoon. If only...
IF ONLY MY CANDIDATE HAD WON! {Sob}
If you're not going to help, then at least get out of the way. Unless 'pity' is your goal. If so, you're closing in on that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
tom-servo
(185 posts)... but the idea that taking care of each other produces better results than rabidly competing with each other appeals to me. That is one of the things that didn't "win" in this election. It has nothing to do with "my candidate".
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)The belief in what you stated is what used to identify us lefties. Now? Hell, I don't know anymore.
tom-servo
(185 posts)stonecutter357
(12,694 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What if a premise was actually supported with objective evidence rather than rhetoric and allegation?
rock
(13,218 posts)Because I find ALL your basic assumptions are exactly the opposite of mine.
... so you think that:
The democratic party leadership actually fully supported Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton's wins were a true upset.
The main stream media overstated the case of how unprecedented Bernie Sander campaign is.
Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the prospect of being written into history as the first woman president to be compelling enough to turn over heaven and earth to achieve.
kadaholo
(304 posts)Truer words have never been spoken! Thanks tom-servo!
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)And millions more chose Hillary.
Deal with it.
LoverOfLiberty
(1,438 posts)the Busters accepted that Hillary was the legitimate nominee?
There would be peace in the valley!
theboss
(10,491 posts)I'm trying to figure out in what universe ANY political party would hand over the keys to a 70-something who isn't actually really a member of the party.
Oh wait....the Republicans just did that, because they are crazy people.
Here is a question.....What would have happened if Bernie had become a Democrat in, say, 1976. Maybe he could have steered the party in his direction instead of showing up 40 years later to yell at people.
tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)on a Democratic board are forced to bow at the feet of an Independent who ran on our ticket, lost, and is now throwing a fit because of it?
pampango
(24,692 posts)Unfortunately it did not happen in the Democratic Party this year.
Whatever we say about Trump, he entered the primary not support by his party which preferred Jeb, Marco and Scott. Voters won it for him over the wishes of his party.
I wish Bernie had been able to do the same.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)tom-servo
(185 posts)... that the party can do something, though I'm not sure what it is. It has to have substance. It can't just be "Bernie Sanders really highlighted some important points...blah, blah blah", or we'll add these points to the platform but in the end ignore the platform.
kayakjohnny
(5,235 posts)Could not agree more.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What does fairly mean? For starters, don't set up the systems by which Hillary PACs could launder their money through the state parties and back to the DNC to fund the actual Clinton campaign. To say to superdelegates: we get that you probably have a candidate that you prefer. Your job as a SD is to shut the fuck up until the convention.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)What fries my ham is that a lot of fellow posters can't even bring themselves to admit simple truths.
840high
(17,196 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Should be writen in present tense and cover the beginning, middle, and end.
It'seems too long for an elevator putch.
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)Bernie starts organizing four years ago, he builds a nation wide organization. He gets out in front of the media so his name recognition is greater than Dr. Bronner's.
He hires a competent staff that can brief him on issues outside of his area of expertise and learns how to debate on the national stage before he's half way through the campaign.
He improves his hearing so he's not so tone deaf to say that his main opponent is only in it to be a historical first.
It would have made the race close and we wouldn't have had to listen to fever dreams about inevitability.
VOX
(22,976 posts)All those "what-ifs" add up to zero. It's time to put those in the flush file, and turn to the real business of stopping Trump and the toxic Republican agenda that is the actual threat to this country.
Because, *what if* Trump were to somehow get his stubby fingers on the presidency? That's the genuine nightmare scenario.
Night Watchman
(743 posts)With a bigger package than John Holmes himself!
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)tom-servo
(185 posts)... there are a lot Bernie Sanders supporters considering supporting a third party, even in this election.