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tom-servo

(185 posts)
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:11 AM Jun 2016

An alternate history...


- What if the Democratic party leadership had recognized early on that Bernie Sanders had tapped into something significant and instead of trying to smear it on their candidate of choice, backed his campaign instead?

- What if the mainstream media had covered the Sanders campaign as the unprecedented phenomena it is?

- What if Hillary Clinton realized the historic prize of becoming the first woman president wasn't really worth bashing a genuine campaign of the people?

Impossible as this may seem, I think the party would be in much better shape than it is right now. This would have convinced a whole group of doubters that the democratic party is more than a puppet organization of the financial sector and actually has the guts to be a party of the people.
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An alternate history... (Original Post) tom-servo Jun 2016 OP
You actually typed this out bravenak Jun 2016 #1
I didn't see another way to post it other than typing. tom-servo Jun 2016 #8
*snort* Recursion Jun 2016 #22
Heehee - you made me laugh out loud!!!! 840high Jun 2016 #129
So, Bernie was cheated out of the nomination? And all his supporters were too.. boston bean Jun 2016 #2
I think more damage has been done to the party than it seems... tom-servo Jun 2016 #7
Someone is missing something, alright. boston bean Jun 2016 #30
I agree Ferd Berfel Jun 2016 #99
Do you honestly think that about Clinton supporters? Generic Brad Jun 2016 #121
this Ferd Berfel Jun 2016 #124
Sigh Generic Brad Jun 2016 #125
Ok Ferd Berfel Jun 2016 #134
This primary season was so outrageous, I no longer believe we have fair elections. reformist2 Jun 2016 #107
Filling stadiums doesn't mean anything if voting booths aren't filled. brush Jun 2016 #108
This is satire, right? Lord Magus Jun 2016 #109
To me, your post looks like satire. If your candidate cannot fill gymnasiums, it should be obvious reformist2 Jun 2016 #113
No, the "extraordinary contortions of logic" are required to believe rally sizes equate to votes. Lord Magus Jun 2016 #114
I wouldn't say he was cheated out of it democrattotheend Jun 2016 #50
... LexVegas Jun 2016 #3
Oh, you are right. djean111 Jun 2016 #4
the. democratic leadership knew... artyteacher Jun 2016 #5
They are missing a bigger picture. tom-servo Jun 2016 #9
and yet indigoth Jun 2016 #16
He has been elected to public office for decades in Vermont oberliner Jun 2016 #19
As Kingfish Long said way back in the day Recursion Jun 2016 #23
Do you have a citation for that quote? oberliner Jun 2016 #34
Good question: I'll PM you if I find it Recursion Jun 2016 #62
Cool - thanks! oberliner Jun 2016 #65
I agree with that treestar Jun 2016 #60
But the white workers in West Virginia voting for a socialist were dismissed as racist JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #66
Unpack that Recursion Jun 2016 #71
I'm just saying that white Dems/Indies voted for a more left-wing candidate than others JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #72
I disagree. That presumes Sanders is to the "left" of Clinton Recursion Jun 2016 #76
Okay, then that's the real nexus of our difference. That's cool. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #79
He praised the higher taxation of upper incomes n the fifties. raging moderate Jun 2016 #126
Which ignores the fact that racism was not incidental to that system Recursion Jun 2016 #132
Don't gloss over the posters point brush Jun 2016 #110
I thought that's what I was saying Recursion Jun 2016 #115
Sorry, responded to the wrong post. brush Jun 2016 #120
Polls today about the GE do not mean what you think they do. There's historical context for early BobbyDrake Jun 2016 #24
And that is the same thing that Clinton supporters would do in the general. tom-servo Jun 2016 #39
communist connections? Did you say 'communist connections' ? pangaia Jun 2016 #38
what does my job/hobby... artyteacher Jun 2016 #43
You realize that Moscow is a sister city to Burlington, Vt. right? panader0 Jun 2016 #64
No, it's not. NanceGreggs Jun 2016 #105
It's always so easy to tell when someone is not a woman. athena Jun 2016 #6
Very disappointing to see misogynist amongst Sanders voters. nt Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #13
I believe Hillary Clinton has done... tom-servo Jun 2016 #14
And every moment we go without a first female president sarae Jun 2016 #118
And I'm a little tired of being labeled a misogynist... tom-servo Jun 2016 #136
Oh, bullshit. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #63
No one said being a woman makes one a feminist. athena Jun 2016 #73
Obviously. But in my case, that's precisely what I am. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #74
No feminist would post what you posted. athena Jun 2016 #75
"no true Scotsman" Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #77
Are you also a meat-eating "vegan" athena Jun 2016 #78
"straw man" Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #80
I just saw your Transparency page. athena Jun 2016 #84
"argumentum ad hominem" Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #87
+1000 sarae Jun 2016 #117
Thank you. sarae Jun 2016 #116
What if Sanders formed friendships and partnerships with Democrats during his career? FSogol Jun 2016 #10
Might be things he wished he'd done... tom-servo Jun 2016 #18
He ran a populist campaign. However, more people voted for HRC and she won. FSogol Jun 2016 #33
Primary voters... tom-servo Jun 2016 #47
More "people" voted for HRC. FSogol Jun 2016 #57
Yes, and her supporters seem to think that this is... tom-servo Jun 2016 #96
There's no way around your opinion? randome Jun 2016 #55
Many pundits think he ran the best primary campaign of either the GOP or Democratic party. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #67
And pundits are so often right... right? (wink) (n/t) PJMcK Jun 2016 #81
What people? theboss Jun 2016 #93
Cute... tom-servo Jun 2016 #97
All of this Blue_Adept Jun 2016 #51
The fundamental problem with his campaign is he is NOT a Democrat theboss Jun 2016 #95
Wish I could rec your post. auntpurl Jun 2016 #53
Wish I could rec your sig line PJMcK Jun 2016 #82
Absolutely agreed. auntpurl Jun 2016 #83
Sanders is still living an alternate history liberal N proud Jun 2016 #11
No we lost the General Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #12
Sanders has baggage? tom-servo Jun 2016 #20
Absolutely Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #59
On another board a Sanders supporter mused that voting is a "relic of the old world." DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #15
On this board a Hillary supporter mused the Constitution is ''old and outmoded'' Octafish Jun 2016 #69
Those two cretins need to get a room. DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #70
It IS the party of the people, but those people voted for Clinton. Instead of disparaging them maybe BobbyDrake Jun 2016 #17
To me it really isn't about a "candidate loss"... tom-servo Jun 2016 #25
Except that you write ridiculous sentences like this and then want to be taken seriously: BobbyDrake Jun 2016 #35
A solely crowd funded campaign that does this well in an election... tom-servo Jun 2016 #40
What if a tiny handful of Bernie holdouts accepted the fact that not everyone loves the man Tarc Jun 2016 #21
It has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders... tom-servo Jun 2016 #29
It has everything to do with you bitterness and stubbornness in the face of electoral defeat Tarc Jun 2016 #42
I wish I could be certain that was the case. tom-servo Jun 2016 #44
Time to update your sig line. auntpurl Jun 2016 #54
Six 6 days in on the generous side. :) Tarc Jun 2016 #61
Actually you're right Tarc Jun 2016 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author Tarc Jun 2016 #58
Well said, Tarc PJMcK Jun 2016 #86
I think they really believed he wouldn't win more than Vermont... TCJ70 Jun 2016 #26
A 55.6%-42.7% win .. a nearly 13 point win, is a "walloping" win in politics. n/t SFnomad Jun 2016 #52
It kind of is. Lord Magus Jun 2016 #111
Stuff like that doesn't happen. aikoaiko Jun 2016 #27
It's fun to imagine better of people sometimes. tom-servo Jun 2016 #31
Maybe, I'm just tired of all the pretend bullshit in this primary. aikoaiko Jun 2016 #45
Sanders smeared a lot of Dems a lot of the time. Democrats coddled Sanders. Another false accusation seabeyond Jun 2016 #28
Democrats coddled Sanders? tom-servo Jun 2016 #32
Yes. They never went after him. seabeyond Jun 2016 #48
If all that had been a possibility, Bernie would not have had to run. pangaia Jun 2016 #36
Good point. tom-servo Jun 2016 #41
Is counter factual imagining a stage of grief? alcibiades_mystery Jun 2016 #37
'Her turn' takes on a whole new meaning to me now a days madokie Jun 2016 #46
If only Israelites and Palestinians could live together. randome Jun 2016 #49
I know it's a little foreign to the cynically minded... tom-servo Jun 2016 #122
I agree. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2016 #127
Yeah, how did we lose that? tom-servo Jun 2016 #135
tick tock.. stonecutter357 Jun 2016 #56
What if a premise was actually supported with objective evidence rather than rhetoric and allegation LanternWaste Jun 2016 #68
Now imagine what I think rock Jun 2016 #85
Ok... tom-servo Jun 2016 #98
Truer Words... kadaholo Jun 2016 #89
Democrats judged Hillary and Bernie workinclasszero Jun 2016 #90
What if LoverOfLiberty Jun 2016 #91
And he still would have lost the black vote theboss Jun 2016 #92
Why is it that Democrats... tallahasseedem Jun 2016 #94
Plenty of party front-runners entering election season have fallen during the primaries. pampango Jun 2016 #100
THEY CAN STILL RECOGNIZE THAT AND DO IT IN SOME FASHION. highprincipleswork Jun 2016 #101
It's possible... tom-servo Jun 2016 #123
Thank you tom kayakjohnny Jun 2016 #102
It would have been perfectly acceptable to at least treat him fairly. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2016 #103
Exactly. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2016 #128
.that^ 840high Jun 2016 #130
Your outline for an alternate history SciFi novel Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #104
How about this alternate history? Buzz cook Jun 2016 #106
What if? What if? What if? What if? VOX Jun 2016 #112
I grew up to be a Porn Star Night Watchman Jun 2016 #119
meanwhile, in reality, the party may be ripped apart by the arrogance of its leaders. eom Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #131
I think this is possible... tom-servo Jun 2016 #133

boston bean

(36,220 posts)
2. So, Bernie was cheated out of the nomination? And all his supporters were too..
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:13 AM
Jun 2016

Cheated by people who backed the wiinner? I don't think so.

Welcome to the world of political campaigning. Votes are made, support is provided and someone wins. I know, it sounds to boring... But it is what it is.

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
99. I agree
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 06:45 PM
Jun 2016

Don't it always seem to go,
that you don't know what you've got till it's gone....

They've got what they want now. No reason to change. Nothing else matters

The rest of us, including the planet, are screwed.

Generic Brad

(14,274 posts)
121. Do you honestly think that about Clinton supporters?
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:42 AM
Jun 2016

They want to doom mankind? They wish to ruin the planet? They voted to hurt the majority of Americans?

The majority of us voted for something with open hearts and good intentions. We all desire to make the world a better place. I feel very sad for those of us who have demonized each other to the point where they can no longer look for our areas of agreement with their fellow citizens and work together to build some form of the positive future we desire. And this sentiment of mine extends beyond the primaries. I feel that way about the general election as well.

We have more that binds us together. We all owe it to one another to respectfully work together to accomplish what we can with what we have in front so as many people benefit as possible.

Generic Brad

(14,274 posts)
125. Sigh
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:05 PM
Jun 2016

I feel very sad you feel that way. I wish you well and will fight on your behalf even though you think otherwise.

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
134. Ok
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:02 PM
Jun 2016

Clinton represents and embodies everything that Bernie has been against. I support Bernie for these reasons.
I will never support a wall street puppet again regardless of which party they claim.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
107. This primary season was so outrageous, I no longer believe we have fair elections.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:48 PM
Jun 2016

How the hell does a candidate who fills stadiums lose to a candidate who can't even fill a gymnasium? It's like the emperor has no clothes.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
109. This is satire, right?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:46 PM
Jun 2016

Elections are not won by filling stadiums. They're won by getting the most votes.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
113. To me, your post looks like satire. If your candidate cannot fill gymnasiums, it should be obvious
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:10 PM
Jun 2016

to anyone that she would be in trouble, unless serious rigging were taking place. If requires extraordinary contortions of logic to think otherwise.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
114. No, the "extraordinary contortions of logic" are required to believe rally sizes equate to votes.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:55 PM
Jun 2016

The vast majority of voters couldn't have less interest in attending a rally. Why is that so hard to grasp?

democrattotheend

(11,605 posts)
50. I wouldn't say he was cheated out of it
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:15 AM
Jun 2016

But I do feel like the deck was somewhat stacked against him, and that the party establishment didn't take him seriously enough.

I also think there are a lot of issues with voter suppression/poorly run elections in many states, but I think in most cases it was the result of Republican cuts to funding of the voting apparatus and incompetence/unpreparedness by local election officials, not some grand conspiracy. Still, I think both sides should be concerned about the issues that prevented some people from voting in the primary, because if they are not addressed prior to November they will probably hurt Hillary more than they hurt Trump.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
4. Oh, you are right.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:15 AM
Jun 2016

I never dreamed I would be leaving the party. But now I will be.

the democratic party is more than a puppet organization of the financial sector

No, it is now just a puppet.

artyteacher

(598 posts)
5. the. democratic leadership knew...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:16 AM
Jun 2016

He was unelectable from the beginning. Too many communist connections. They've been extremely kind to him

indigoth

(135 posts)
16. and yet
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:27 AM
Jun 2016

He polls better against trump than Hillary.

And he has been elected to public office for DECADES ... and has served LONGER than Hillary has

But you say he's "unelectable". Really?

Smh

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
19. He has been elected to public office for decades in Vermont
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:29 AM
Jun 2016

If the United States was 97 percent white like Vermont is, then Bernie probably would've won.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
23. As Kingfish Long said way back in the day
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:31 AM
Jun 2016

If America were entirely white, America would be the most socialist country in the West.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
62. Good question: I'll PM you if I find it
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:05 AM
Jun 2016

It's something I've heard attributed to him tons but I've never seen an actual cite. Let me dig some.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
60. I agree with that
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:57 AM
Jun 2016

It's pathetic, on FB and such, you can really tell the right wingers' REAL problem with any social program. They are afraid non-white people might get some help.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
66. But the white workers in West Virginia voting for a socialist were dismissed as racist
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:25 AM
Jun 2016


Last Tuesday, Bernie Sanders won the 93.7 percent white state of West Virginia with ease, beating Clinton among men and women, young and old. The week prior, he cruised to victory in Indiana, despite no longer apparently being a serious contender for the nomination.

Leftists were ecstatic: a socialist winning over middle America!

...

With Clinton’s nomination a lock, liberals have become even more furious and dismissive of white workers. Commenting on Sanders’s West Virginia victory, they were quick to point out that a felon running against Obama in the same state in 2012 got nearly half as many votes. They crowed about how some of both Bernie and Clinton’s voters said Trump was their real number one choice, and much was made of how Sanders overwhelmingly won voters who want “less liberal” policies than Obama’s.

Conveniently lost in the noise is the fact that Sanders won an even bigger share of voters who want “more liberal” ones.

The media takeaway was clear: somehow, someway, West Virginia’s vote for a Jewish socialist Brooklyn native was a vote for racism. “I don’t want to say it,” said Chris Matthews on election night “but West Virginian voters are, you know — conservative on social issues — but there’s another word for that. . .”

MSNBC’s Alex Seitz-Wald claimed, “Many attributed the outcome to West Virginia voters’ discomfort with Obama’s race. The state is one of the whitest in the country.” To be fair, it’s now widely known that Hillary Clinton keeps hot sauce in her purse at all times.


https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/white-workers-bernie-sanders-clinton-primary-racism/

So West Virginia voters are against socialism because POC in other states will benefit from the same policies they would? I mean, that is what your argument effectively is, right? It's a theory, one which I don't really find plausible though. I don't mean that as a strawman, it simply seems to be the logical conclusion of your theory.

What about Indiana then? What about Michigan, where white voters backed Sanders and social democracy despite a large portion of POC within the state? (if that theory held, wouldn't they have backed him in fewer numbers?)

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
72. I'm just saying that white Dems/Indies voted for a more left-wing candidate than others
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jun 2016

I'm speaking about the present time. I don't know what "Unpack that" means. Obviously the 1950s were deeply unfair to POC.

I think I made my point rather clearly.

raging moderate

(4,297 posts)
126. He praised the higher taxation of upper incomes n the fifties.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:11 PM
Jun 2016

Before the Reagan Revolution and the Bush-Cheney regime lowered their taxes to the point where the wealth of the US was re-distributed mainly to the top 1%.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
132. Which ignores the fact that racism was not incidental to that system
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:42 PM
Jun 2016

It was integral. So was sexism. Women and people of color were excluded from most jobs, which drove up the wages of the white men who had them, high enough that "one earner" (rarely made explicit: one white male earner) could support a family, a concept that was pretty much unknown before WWII.

With employers having to compete over (relatively) scarce white male workers, wages (for the white males) were pushed up, which meant an income-based tax system could cover a fairly broad array of social spending (which, in the nature of things, went disproportionately to the people who were earning the incomes that paid those taxes, and indeed expansion of that spending was strongly and even violently resisted).

Once those exclusionary policies were at least notionally taken out of the equation, the floor for white wages that created collapsed. And so, unsurprisingly, white male wages have stagnated or even sunk since 1970, while wages for women and minorities have risen pretty dramatically, as has their labor force participation.

brush

(53,763 posts)
110. Don't gloss over the posters point
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:55 PM
Jun 2016

Vermont is nearly all-white.

Sanders for the most part, did poorly in large, diverse states so it's not that surprising that he lost.

The most recent proof of that is California, which for some reason, his campaign thought he was going to win.

And the whole thing of going on to DC is so ignoring the obvious it's silly— DC is majority POC.

I mean what does he think is going to happen there but another loss?

He just doesn't resonate with POC and you can't win the Dem nomination without that support.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
115. I thought that's what I was saying
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:00 PM
Jun 2016

White populism has turned on PoC multiple times in American history and so unsurprisingly there's a level of skepticism of it among PoC.

 

BobbyDrake

(2,542 posts)
24. Polls today about the GE do not mean what you think they do. There's historical context for early
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:31 AM
Jun 2016

GE polls to be wildly inaccurate compared to the final results.

Besides, everyone knows that Bernie only polls higher because Clinton's voters do the right thing and back him regardless, while it's Sanders' selfish supporters who can't tell pollsters that they'd back Clinton in the general election.

The political pyromaniacs need to understand that the Democratic Party will not run on a platform of "Burn it all down!"

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
38. communist connections? Did you say 'communist connections' ?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:43 AM
Jun 2016

Are you really a teacher?.. of art?

Well, I am a musician, 20 years or so an artist-in-residence at a major American conservatory, and even I know better than that.

artyteacher

(598 posts)
43. what does my job/hobby...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:51 AM
Jun 2016

Have to do with knowing a majority of Americans aren't ready for someone who honeymooned in Moscow, praised communists, and praised bread ones.


I don't care myself, but it's a big country and a lot of Americans are easily swayed.

And that's just the tip of the ice berg.

Hey, saying you're going to raise taxes is enough to doom him with most livs.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
64. You realize that Moscow is a sister city to Burlington, Vt. right?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jun 2016

You know, where Bernie was mayor?
And what does "praised bread ones" mean?

athena

(4,187 posts)
6. It's always so easy to tell when someone is not a woman.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:17 AM
Jun 2016

Women can be misogynists, too, but they usually don't say things like this:

What if Hillary Clinton realized the historic prize of becoming the first woman president wasn't really worth bashing a genuine campaign of the people?


To you, perhaps, it's all about HRC wanting to "become" the first woman president. In other words, we're back to the "she's too ambitious" argument. In fact, this is not about HRC wanting to become anything; it's about 50% of the population being represented at the top level of government. I am grateful to Hillary Clinton for giving us an opportunity to have a woman president in our lifetime.

I won't even go into pitting equality for women against "a genuine campaign of the people." Clearly, women are not "people" in the eyes of some people. We're just a special interest group.

If we were talking about any other type of minority -- Black people, Asians, native Americans, Muslims, LGBT, Jewish people -- we wouldn't be seeing this kind of insensitivity about the idea of equality.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
14. I believe Hillary Clinton has done...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:25 AM
Jun 2016

... great things in the furthering of gender equality. She's been a role model for women in my generation, but there will be many great woman presidents. At this moment in time, I think, Bernie Sanders is a unique candidate.

sarae

(3,284 posts)
118. And every moment we go without a first female president
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:18 PM
Jun 2016

is a moment in which more girls grow up without having these important role models. Female role models ARE important.

I'm tired of the double standards and the misogyny, and frankly, tired of clueless men.

So. Fucking. Tired.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
136. And I'm a little tired of being labeled a misogynist...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 10:59 PM
Jun 2016

... by clueless women just because I disagree with them. Fortunately there is a new generation of women who are secure enough to measure a candidate by their record and platform and not by their gender.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
63. Oh, bullshit.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:11 AM
Jun 2016

Identity politics is shallow, destructive nonsense. I'm a woman, and I don't give two shits about that whole "first woman president" blather when the potential subject of those rapturous effusions is a venal, warmongering corporatist.

athena

(4,187 posts)
73. No one said being a woman makes one a feminist.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jun 2016

I'm always amused when someone posts the equivalent of, "Look at me! I'm a woman, and I support Bernie and can't stand Hillary!" as if that proves anything. We feminists never said all women are feminists or are even familiar with feminist ideas. Only someone who has never read much about feminism could think otherwise. Only someone who has never been hurt by sexism could call equality for women "identity politics" and not care that she is not fairly represented in government.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
74. Obviously. But in my case, that's precisely what I am.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:48 AM
Jun 2016

And I stand by my statement about identity politics precisely for that reason. As for the rest of that didactic twaddle, well...use your imagination.

athena

(4,187 posts)
75. No feminist would post what you posted.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:51 AM
Jun 2016

No feminist would call feminism "identity politics".

"Feminism" is a word that means something. It's not just a label you can attach to yourself, regardless of your opinions.

athena

(4,187 posts)
78. Are you also a meat-eating "vegan"
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:55 AM
Jun 2016

as well as a Hillary-hating "feminist" who couldn't care less about equal representation in government?

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
80. "straw man"
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:58 AM
Jun 2016

Wow, you're really bad at this.

Do continue...this is entertaining enough to leave you off Ignore for a few more posts.

athena

(4,187 posts)
84. I just saw your Transparency page.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jun 2016

You seem to be here to insult people, not to have a discussion. It's interesting that someone would be so amused by insulting people and watching their reaction. Then again, there is no accounting for taste.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
87. "argumentum ad hominem"
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:24 AM
Jun 2016

This is fun.

As for my purpose for being here, I had all of five people on my Ignore list for years, and seldom got hides (despite having some political positions unpopular with the more alert-prone contingent here). I un-Trashed GD: P in February...and now have c. 350 on Ignore. If my reason for being here has shifted (and in all honesty, it may have...I've largely given up on this horribly dysfunctional community), I'd offer that there has been plenty of motivation for that to occur. So many Hillary supporters have been absolutely toxic in this shitshow of a primary season, and I'm no saint. I bite back. Tough shit.

FSogol

(45,470 posts)
10. What if Sanders formed friendships and partnerships with Democrats during his career?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:21 AM
Jun 2016

What if he hired competent professionals to run his campaign in lieu of Jeff Weaver?
What if he coupled his excellent social media and word of mouth campaign into a good ground game like Obama did?
What if he made registering people to vote Democratic the focus of his rallies?
What if he had combined racial justice with economic justice earlier in his campaign in an appeal to African Americans?

Impossible as this may seem, I think his campaign would be in much better shape than it is right now. This would have convinced a whole group of Democrats that the Sanders campaign is more than a group of malcontents that actually has the guts to show up and vote instead of just crying foul over everything.

What if?


tom-servo

(185 posts)
18. Might be things he wished he'd done...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:27 AM
Jun 2016

... but the fact remains that the Sanders campaign is an undeniable campaign of the people. There's no way around that.

FSogol

(45,470 posts)
33. He ran a populist campaign. However, more people voted for HRC and she won.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:38 AM
Jun 2016

Aren't the people voting for other candidates people too?

tom-servo

(185 posts)
47. Primary voters...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:57 AM
Jun 2016

... will vote for someone. If "the people" hadn't made Bernie Sanders stick out, everyone would have voted for Hillary Clinton.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
96. Yes, and her supporters seem to think that this is...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 06:15 PM
Jun 2016

... some sort of achievement. If Bernie Sanders wasn't in the race, Hillary Clinton could have slept through entire primary.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
55. There's no way around your opinion?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:26 AM
Jun 2016
I'd say, first and foremost, that he ran a poor campaign.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
93. What people?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 02:23 PM
Jun 2016

Honestly, this feels like the part where Bernie breaks into "Empty Tables and Empty Chairs."

tom-servo

(185 posts)
97. Cute...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 06:24 PM
Jun 2016

... the only reason we are even talking about Bernie Sanders is because of a very surprising groundswell of support for him. His campaign was paid for and driven by "the people" in the strictest sense of the phrase. That is why I call it a "campaign of the people". i do wish we would keep in mind what is difficult and what isn't. Hillary Clinton getting votes isn't difficult, Bernie Sanders getting votes is.

Blue_Adept

(6,397 posts)
51. All of this
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:20 AM
Jun 2016

This has been the disappointing side of his campaign. There simply was no experience with running a national campaign, which ruins many a good politician, and he wasn't able to bring in the right people to really do it or allow those he had to go full on with it. There were some significant missteps that to many supporters were signs of him being more a man of the people than a pol, but it was what doomed him from making significant inroads.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
95. The fundamental problem with his campaign is he is NOT a Democrat
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 02:24 PM
Jun 2016

I don't understand why people don't see that glaring problem.

PJMcK

(22,025 posts)
82. Wish I could rec your sig line
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:06 AM
Jun 2016

The continuous vitriol that DU members spew at one another is unbelievable and tiresome. One's argument is diminished when a poster resorts to vulgarity or personal attacks. Your call for civility is wonderful and more people on this site should reconsider their aggressiveness.

auntpurl

(4,311 posts)
83. Absolutely agreed.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:10 AM
Jun 2016

Not least of which because it doesn't do any good in terms of winning people to your side. If one Bernie supporter is affected in a positive way from my being civil and it softens him/her toward Hillary, then I am doing something right. I'm not claiming I'm changing millions of hearts and minds over here, lol, but it's a start.

I also feel better about myself when I am the bigger person. It's really quite a selfish motivation! I went through the 08 race here (under another name) full of vitriol, furious and sad when Hillary lost. I didn't handle it well. I felt like crap about myself when I logged off back then. It was toxic for me to be directing that rage at other people.

The new rules should help.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
12. No we lost the General
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:23 AM
Jun 2016

There is no way in the world that Sander could win a General...way too much baggage. He would be swiftboated out of the race.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
59. Absolutely
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:52 AM
Jun 2016

I won't post the details, (wrong to post shite about Dems) but here is a link...there are others...and there is more stuff out there. I live in Ohio...Bernie would never win Ohio after swiftboating by the GOP...there is a reason the GOP wanted Bernie and Trump still wants him.

 

BobbyDrake

(2,542 posts)
17. It IS the party of the people, but those people voted for Clinton. Instead of disparaging them maybe
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:27 AM
Jun 2016

try some self-reflection instead.

"What was wrong with our message, or the delivery of it, that did not convince a majority of Democrats to support us? Was there a better way to express our ideas that did not involve so much anger and negativity?"

"What was wrong with our tactics of personally insulting anyone who did not already agree with us? Would we have had better results trying to win people over rather than demanding that they comply? Did our obvious litmus test serve us well, or did it prevent outsiders from even wanting to be associated with us?"

"What was wrong with our membership, that we believed that online harassment campaigns of Democratic officials who were not doing as we demanded was somehow going to make super-delegates switch to our candidate? Why did we adopt the tactics of the reviled and disgusting Gamer-Gater movement, and somehow think that would be effective?"

"What part of getting upset at the very existence of super-delegates, and then demanding that they support Bernie when it became clear he wouldn't win a majority of pledged delegates, was not blatantly hypocritical? Why did we assume that the Democratic Party would overturn the will of a majority of voters in a democratic election for no other reason than that we believed we were entitled to them doing just that?"

Bernie's supporters have some soul-searching to do, IMO, before they start trying to lay blame with others for their candidate's loss.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
25. To me it really isn't about a "candidate loss"...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:33 AM
Jun 2016

... it is about the loss for a set of ideals that a particular person embodies for a particular point in time.

 

BobbyDrake

(2,542 posts)
35. Except that you write ridiculous sentences like this and then want to be taken seriously:
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:40 AM
Jun 2016

"What if the mainstream media had covered the Sanders campaign as the unprecedented phenomena it is?"

Bernie's campaign was neither unprecedented nor a phenomenon, at least not in the eyes of anyone outside its misinformation bubble. Historically, a lot of far-left candidates have run, and some have even won the nomination. History tells us such men went on to suffer historic losses in their general elections.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
21. What if a tiny handful of Bernie holdouts accepted the fact that not everyone loves the man
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:30 AM
Jun 2016

as much as you do?

Jesus fucking christ bro, we hold elections and declare the person with the most votes the winner.

He
Didn't
Fucking
Win.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
29. It has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:36 AM
Jun 2016

... or about winning or losing. I can't see why some people don't see that. It has to do with the support of a set of ideas.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
42. It has everything to do with you bitterness and stubbornness in the face of electoral defeat
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:48 AM
Jun 2016

1. The party leadership didn't cater or cajole either presidential candidate.

2. The media does not exist to give Bernie Sanders puff piece coverage. This isn't the USSR, we don't do Pravda.

3. The 3rd one is the most absurd, "...wasn't really worth bashing a genuine campaign of the people"

When we hold elections, we have candidates with competing and contrasting ideas on what to do going forward. Your "campaign of the people" saw more voters turn out to disagree with it than agree with it. That's how we determine election winners and thus candidates.

Bernie's ideas did not win over most voters. This wasn't because of party sabotage, media disinterest or anything but the very simple fact that more voters disagreed than agreed.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
61. Six 6 days in on the generous side. :)
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:58 AM
Jun 2016

I figure the reforms won't come online til sometime late on the 16th, so they'll have most of the day to sort themselves out one last time.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
88. Actually you're right
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 12:15 PM
Jun 2016

14th is DC's primary.
15th is the get-it-out-of-your-system-day.
16th on the dot is the new DU.

Response to Tarc (Reply #21)

PJMcK

(22,025 posts)
86. Well said, Tarc
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:16 AM
Jun 2016

The fact is Hillary Clinton won the primary and Bernie Sanders lost. And it wasn't even that close considering the popular vote totals and all the mathematical variations that have been proposed.

Let's move on.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
26. I think they really believed he wouldn't win more than Vermont...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:33 AM
Jun 2016

...and according to some Hillary supporters, speaking of alternate histories, 44-56 is some sort of amazing walloping win.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
111. It kind of is.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:55 PM
Jun 2016

I mean Obama's 2008 win over McCain was considered a borderline landslide, and that was 52.9%-45.7%.

aikoaiko

(34,165 posts)
27. Stuff like that doesn't happen.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jun 2016

You might as well fantasize about the rich voluntarily giving their wealth to the government to make a better society.

What's the point?

aikoaiko

(34,165 posts)
45. Maybe, I'm just tired of all the pretend bullshit in this primary.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:52 AM
Jun 2016

I'm tired of pretending that any of this will mean a difference.


 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
28. Sanders smeared a lot of Dems a lot of the time. Democrats coddled Sanders. Another false accusation
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:35 AM
Jun 2016

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
36. If all that had been a possibility, Bernie would not have had to run.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:40 AM
Jun 2016

THAT, the ugliness of all American national politics, is what he was running against.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
49. If only Israelites and Palestinians could live together.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:14 AM
Jun 2016

If only Putin wasn't such a buffoon. If only...

IF ONLY MY CANDIDATE HAD WON! {Sob}

If you're not going to help, then at least get out of the way. Unless 'pity' is your goal. If so, you're closing in on that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

tom-servo

(185 posts)
122. I know it's a little foreign to the cynically minded...
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:18 AM
Jun 2016

... but the idea that taking care of each other produces better results than rabidly competing with each other appeals to me. That is one of the things that didn't "win" in this election. It has nothing to do with "my candidate".

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
127. I agree.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jun 2016

The belief in what you stated is what used to identify us lefties. Now? Hell, I don't know anymore.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
68. What if a premise was actually supported with objective evidence rather than rhetoric and allegation
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:27 AM
Jun 2016

What if a premise was actually supported with objective evidence rather than rhetoric and allegation?

rock

(13,218 posts)
85. Now imagine what I think
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:14 AM
Jun 2016

Because I find ALL your basic assumptions are exactly the opposite of mine.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
98. Ok...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 06:35 PM
Jun 2016

... so you think that:

The democratic party leadership actually fully supported Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton's wins were a true upset.

The main stream media overstated the case of how unprecedented Bernie Sander campaign is.

Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the prospect of being written into history as the first woman president to be compelling enough to turn over heaven and earth to achieve.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
92. And he still would have lost the black vote
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 02:21 PM
Jun 2016

I'm trying to figure out in what universe ANY political party would hand over the keys to a 70-something who isn't actually really a member of the party.

Oh wait....the Republicans just did that, because they are crazy people.

Here is a question.....What would have happened if Bernie had become a Democrat in, say, 1976. Maybe he could have steered the party in his direction instead of showing up 40 years later to yell at people.

tallahasseedem

(6,716 posts)
94. Why is it that Democrats...
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 02:23 PM
Jun 2016

on a Democratic board are forced to bow at the feet of an Independent who ran on our ticket, lost, and is now throwing a fit because of it?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
100. Plenty of party front-runners entering election season have fallen during the primaries.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:05 PM
Jun 2016

Unfortunately it did not happen in the Democratic Party this year.

Whatever we say about Trump, he entered the primary not support by his party which preferred Jeb, Marco and Scott. Voters won it for him over the wishes of his party.

I wish Bernie had been able to do the same.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
123. It's possible...
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:32 AM
Jun 2016

... that the party can do something, though I'm not sure what it is. It has to have substance. It can't just be "Bernie Sanders really highlighted some important points...blah, blah blah", or we'll add these points to the platform but in the end ignore the platform.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
103. It would have been perfectly acceptable to at least treat him fairly.
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:11 PM
Jun 2016

What does fairly mean? For starters, don't set up the systems by which Hillary PACs could launder their money through the state parties and back to the DNC to fund the actual Clinton campaign. To say to superdelegates: we get that you probably have a candidate that you prefer. Your job as a SD is to shut the fuck up until the convention.

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
128. Exactly.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:22 PM
Jun 2016

What fries my ham is that a lot of fellow posters can't even bring themselves to admit simple truths.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
104. Your outline for an alternate history SciFi novel
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:12 PM
Jun 2016

Should be writen in present tense and cover the beginning, middle, and end.

It'seems too long for an elevator putch.

Buzz cook

(2,471 posts)
106. How about this alternate history?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 08:39 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie starts organizing four years ago, he builds a nation wide organization. He gets out in front of the media so his name recognition is greater than Dr. Bronner's.

He hires a competent staff that can brief him on issues outside of his area of expertise and learns how to debate on the national stage before he's half way through the campaign.

He improves his hearing so he's not so tone deaf to say that his main opponent is only in it to be a historical first.

It would have made the race close and we wouldn't have had to listen to fever dreams about inevitability.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
112. What if? What if? What if? What if?
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:05 PM
Jun 2016

All those "what-ifs" add up to zero. It's time to put those in the flush file, and turn to the real business of stopping Trump and the toxic Republican agenda that is the actual threat to this country.

Because, *what if* Trump were to somehow get his stubby fingers on the presidency? That's the genuine nightmare scenario.

tom-servo

(185 posts)
133. I think this is possible...
Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:20 AM
Jun 2016

... there are a lot Bernie Sanders supporters considering supporting a third party, even in this election.

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