Shouldn't picking POTUS be about character

[laserhaas]

Either your character is exemplary...or it isn't.

It really is that simple.

[br][hr][br]

I didn't expect debates on the meaning of the word character; and provide this item ..for clarity's sake.

char·ac·ter
ˈkerəktər/
noun
1.
the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.
"running away was not in keeping with her character"
synonyms: personality, nature, disposition, temperament, temper, mentality, makeup; More

40 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Bernie's character is good
	30 (75%)
	Hillary's character is good
	5 (13%)
	All of the above
	5 (13%)
	Laser...is a....character
	0 (0%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Vogon_Glory]

1. Only to an extent

Character is only a virtue to an extent. I'd sooner have a rascally, skirt chasing rogue who knows what's what than some Bible thumping Dweeb who has no idea how the world works. We saw PLENTY of the latter in the Republicans' primaries earlier this year.

[laserhaas]

3. I dont think bible thumping counts as character

Hitler did that thingy...too

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Trump's character is very, very bad.

At this point my primary concern is to be sure that assclown isn't allowed within a mile of the White House.

[laserhaas]

5. I would argue that you could have worked harder

On that particular stratagem

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. How do you know how hard I worked? I don't understand your response.

[laserhaas]

15. Isnt Bernie's loss...our loss

He couldnt be in more places...but we could have

Arguing that Trump is the issue now...infers...you are resigned

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. I supported Bernie from the beginning, contributed to his campaign,

did what I could to support him. There really isn't anything more I, as an individual, can do at this point to make him become the nominee. It would be great but it's not likely to happen.

[laserhaas]

23. I hear you and....sigh

[msongs]

4. character is acknowledging reality, accepting and moving into the next phase nt

[LonePirate]

6. Why are we rehashing the primary race? It's over. It's GE time.

[840high]

35. November is not over.

[ZombieHorde]

7. I care more about policy than character.

Character means different things to different people, but policy is a little more concrete. Still open to interpretation, but not nearly as much as character, in my opinion.

[laserhaas]

11. That's absurd. If the policy comes from lacking in character

Then policy is fickle

[ZombieHorde]

42. Character is so subjective that I don't think about it very much.

Philosophers and religious icons have wildly different ideas as to what constitutes a "good character." Nietzsche, Lao Tzu, de Sade, Kant, etc., all hold different opinions on the subject. On paper, many of us would agree on some things, but certainly not in practice. Personally, I suspect there is no such thing as character, or lack thereof.

All policy is fickle. 100%, through and through.

[laserhaas]

8. The trend here...is as telltale

As I expected

[Stallion]

10. As a History Major I'd Caution Against Taking a Puritan View of Character in a President

generally yeah but Presidents have had great strengths and usually significant weaknesses of character. But I'd agree that's a HUGE weakness for Trump

[laserhaas]

13. JFK is an example...of your paradigm..suggested

And he had more character than most

Though nobody is perfect

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. JFK was not squeaky clean.

His reputation has taken on a whole lot of polish since 1963.

[laserhaas]

24. That was the point...He had flaws...but was exceptional

Wonder what he and MLK (or even Mandela) would say in their minds...of the dynamics of this day

[okasha]

30. JFK-s principle campaign issue was an outright lie.

He ran on the assertion that the US had substantially fewer ICBM's than the USSR and was therefore vulnerable in a nuclear war. And all three Kennedy brothers had zipper problems that make Bill Clinton look like a choirboy.

[laserhaas]

43. Opinions vary

I wonder what you'd say...to him...here..today

[okasha]

65. Opinions on the so-called "missile gap" do not vary.

I'd say to him:

1. Thank you for instituting the space program. It was great while it lasted.

2. Fuck you to hell for not having the guts to get out of Vietnam in your first term. You didn't get the second you hoped for, and Lyndon lied us deeper and deeper into it with the Tonkin Gulf Resolution as a result.

[laserhaas]

71. He kept I.S. out of a war with Russia...over Cuba

And I'd dare say you wouldnt be so uncouth to say FU

HRC has done much worse

Just sayin.....

[okasha]

81. That's US, not I,S,

He faced Kruschev down over deployment of Soviet missiles to Cuba. For the first and only time our military went to DefCon 2. He threatened war with the USSR, and they stood down.

I remember that day very well. The nuns sent us all home so that they could all meet in chapel and pray for peace. No one was fooled, though. We all knew we were going home to die with our families when the bombs began to rain out of the sky.

Yes, I'd use that language. Friends died in Vietnam, and some who survived are permanently disabled.

And no, HRC has not done worse than Vietnam. Don't try to pin Bush's war on her.

[laserhaas]

82. Picky...picker pikki

You are willfully blind to facts and prefer fiction

Document your contentions.please .if you intend to continue

[okasha]

89. Anyone who lived through those days.

will tell you the same things. Get yourself a couple of bios of JFK; read Caro's books on LBJ.

I suspect I play better poker than you do, too.

[RandySF]

12. Why are we fighting a primary that's over?

[laserhaas]

14. You wish it was over; and that's a troubling thing

But we only have a few days left to even dare to pose this question.

And Im expecting my bojo..come that time.

So...fret not...this will likely wither away

[RandySF]

17. Well

I don't think the super delegates are reading DU.

[laserhaas]

20. That would be unwise...DU..DK .etc...speaks the will

of the people.

But that's not paramount

[Ace Rothstein]

32. The will of the people is reflected in their votes.

Hillary received more of them.

[840high]

36. November is coming.

[laserhaas]

44. Pshaw

Nes't-ce pas!

[LenaBaby61]

78. Because some folks...

Just can't let go of losing. I understand it to a point.

I remember back in 2008 when then Sen. Obama got the best of Hillary. I was not a happy camper, but once the primaries were over, and once Hillary threw all of her support behind Sen. Obama, I got squarely behind him and never looked back. I did what I could to get others to register to vote. Helped get seniors to the polls, and made sure--with the help of others--to make sure people who sent away for mail-in ballots got them, and myself, along with others, also made sure that those who needed help getting to the polls to vote on election night got there.

But like I say, some folks just can't let go . Oh well

[unblock]

16. character is only a part of it.

other things matter as well, like issues, priorities, etc.

moreover, "character" is not remotely binary as you describe, especially when it comes to politics.

we could elect a saint only to find them incapable of achieving any helpful outcomes.

lbj had some tremendous accomplishments on the domestic front, and he was known for eating raw onions before close-talking to congress-critters to twist their arms. simply put, he was not a nice guy. but i'll take effective any day of the week if it's in the name of civil rights and progressive values.

[laserhaas]

22. Your argument does not hold water...he re

Bernie most certainly has as much experience in politics as Senator Obama did

[unblock]

28. so... somehow that means only character matters?

you're o.p. is trying to make potus selection all about "character", and trying to make "character" something that you either have or don't have.

i'm saying it's rather more complex than that.

now you seem to be saying it's about character and experience.

ok....

[laserhaas]

46. My op posed the question and the answers..pro Hillary

Dodge it..or mischaracterize it...in obfuscation

Bernie is much cleaner than Hillary

Just as many years in politics

And more progressive

Much....MUCH ...less...flip floppy

[unblock]

70. i voted for bernie so i don't know what you're talking about.

you seem to be bent on seeing everything through a hillary vs. bernie lens.

i wasn't really talking about either.

you were making arguments about how to pick a president, i disagreed with your methodology, which i find highly simplistic as it ignores many other facets that are relevant to the outcomes.

[laserhaas]

72. No..you seem to want to be argumentative

I'm Bernie or Bust

Pure and simple

[okasha]

21. Jimmy Carter has more character

than any three other presidents from 1900-present.
He was ridiculed for it..

LBJ had less character than Herbert Hoover subtracted from Calvin Coolidge. Yet he accomplished the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, and the Great Society legislation.

Picking POTUS should be based on experience and effectiveness.

[laserhaas]

25. I don't agree... We had run away inflation and % hikes

When he was POTUS

Post Presidency there's none who have devoted themselves to humanity..more

His signing on the Troy Davis case was awe inspiring

[okasha]

31. Runaway inflation does not indicate a flawed character.

It indicates poor policy and bad planning.

[laserhaas]

47. You are the one who argued....effectiveness

Not me

[okasha]

68. Did you miss the point that completely?

I argued that Jimmy Carter is a man of high character, but little effectiveness as President.

[laserhaas]

73. Isnt that what I just said

Up yonder ^^^^

[unblock]

33. the inflation we had wasn't "runaway" inflation, which is an entirely different animal.

we had moderately high inflation (by american standards, anyway) for a few years, then stamped it out by design with interest rate hikes designed to break the expectation of inflation.

that solution to the inflation problem (which arose due to the oil shocks under nixon/ford and their incompetent non-handling of the problem -- remember ford's "whip inflation now" buttons?) was engineered by carter appointed fed chair paul volcker and is widely credited with having stabilized our economy for the subsequent decades.

[laserhaas]

48. I remember the prices at the time ( being 60 yrs old)

And 21% interest rates on loans

It was nutz


But I adore him (and his silent buddy Holland Ware)

[840high]

38. I'll always think of Carter

with great respect. He has character.

[laserhaas]

49. I dont disagree...but he was a flawed POTUS

Lacking the true comprehension of POWER perceived is power achieved

He was...and still is....a very nice guy

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. LBJ was pretty much an asshole.

But he was a very effective president with respect to his domestic policies.

[laserhaas]

50. And his character flaws may include fore knowledge

JFK was going to be bumped off

[MyNameGoesHere]

26. Dammit! I knew I forgot to check the character box on that ballot

And it was right next to the hash tag #mtguyisthebestestawesome

[laserhaas]

51. Good one

[mythology]

29. Who defines exemplary character?

There are plenty of reports of Sanders being alienating to potential allies for not meeting his definition of purity. The recent Politico report on the end of the primary season isn't exactly a flattering portrayal (not that I take that report particularly seriously by itself as people are always happy to shift blame for failure to achieve objectives onto others).

Sanders spent a lot of time and effort opposing efforts to look at the VA when the first reports of problems came out. Yes he then helped to pass the reform bill, but he got blasted by IAVA for example for his initial refusal to take action.

I find it rare that somebody actually has exemplary behavior as I would consider it. And that includes myself.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. I prefer Hillary for many reasons, and yes one of the reasons is character

[840high]

39. You can fool all the

people at some time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. Lol. Ok

[laserhaas]

52. I say

[840high]

62. Love your sig line.

[laserhaas]

75. Thanks

One must try...to make a difference

[athena]

66. I agree with you.

People who think she has a bad character are believing the propaganda rather than looking with their own eyes.

For example, Tulsi Gabbard is a darling among Bernie supporters, who seem completely unfamiliar with her extreme views on Syrian refugees.

[laserhaas]

80. Certainly couldnt have nothing to do with facts

Or evidence...mens rea...scienter...her being a lawyer

Vastly experienced in White House inner dealings

Shenanigans

Etc.....

[baldguy]

37. Sanders has shown a decided lack of character in the last few weeks.

[laserhaas]

53. Says you

He is a gentlemen and a warrior

Who bows not...to oppressive wills

[baldguy]

93. If he were a "gentlemen and a warrior" he would concede & join Clinton to fight RW oppression.

He is neither.

[HooptieWagon]

40. Probably not.

George W Bush was elected twice.

[laserhaas]

54. That speaks to the character of the nation and Nadar

And the Supreme Court

[MADem]

45. It's about leadership and the ability to effectively prosecute an agenda.

That agenda should be to the advancement and betterment of We, The People.

We've had plenty of very effective "characters" in the White House--and some of them weren't clean as a hound's tooth, either, in terms of their moral qualities, certainly.

[laserhaas]

55. I dont disagree..for the most part

But the arguments that Hillary is more qualified...nicer

Or of better character....are disingenuous

[MADem]

57. I do think she is more qualified.

I couldn't say if she's nicer...but who cares? We're not electing a prom queen after all...

[laserhaas]

59. We disagree

Thats okay...chances are its going to be your way

[XRubicon]

56. No, it's about votes

How many did Bernie get? How many did Hillary get?

OMG! many people who vote disagree with you...

[laserhaas]

61. Actually...its about rules and vote countings

The system ...fer sure...is far from uniform

[XRubicon]

64. Don't bogart that... pass it

and try not to drool on it.

[SamKnause]

58. Character, proven authenticity, and sound judgment.

Bernie has all of these attributes.

[laserhaas]

60. Very well put

[XRubicon]

67. Too bad he couldn't get more people to vote for him...

Good honest folk, like you. Not evil people, like me.

[cheapdate]

63. Hypothetically, sure.

[laserhaas]

76. Exactly

0

[Miles Archer]

69. One difference between Clinton supporters and the uninitiated...

...is that some, although maybe not all, of her supporters think her character is fine just the way it is.

People not in that category have questions / qualms / etc about her character, or they flat-out are not admirers or supporters.

That's painting it in broad strokes, of course.

There will be more than a few Democrats who will vote for her for reasons other than her "character," the biggest reason being to stop Trump. A "vote" is not synonymous with "vote of confidence" 100% of the time. Sometimes it's something you have to do in order to prevent something else from happening...in this case, preventing "President Trump."

It's like anything else in life.

It would be a large, perhaps impossible effort to convince someone who admires and respects Clinton to convince them that they shouldn't.

It would be a large, perhaps impossible effort to convince someone who neither admires not respects Clinton to convince them that they should.

And as someone who has supported Sanders, I've done that, without trying to bend or allowing myself to be bent. People who are excited about Clinton? Good for them. It's important to find people and causes that excite you. Why would I want to rain on their parade?

I don't think the 2016 election is about character at all, unless you list the negatives Trump brings to the table. Then it's about his character.

Clinton is who we have in our corner to stop him. That's the sum total of my praise for her on any level.

[laserhaas]

79. I simply cannot jiin the fray

1st of all...her character is an issue..for me

2nd ...the quid pro quo while Sec of State getting millions for the Foundation...from foreigners..is reprehensible

Finally...I know Bain Capital and Goldman Sachs far better than most.. Abd she tooks Sachs money...praising them...while winking an eye...telli g them to stop that

So she has received a piece of my childrens inheritance, by proxy...that they stole..by fraud and corruption

Including mayhem and worse

She will never touch Goldman Sachs

And I'll never touch her

[Miles Archer]

94. I'll never "endorse" her...I won't come here for cookies and punch if I vote for her.

...I just don't know if I'm going to be able to vote for her in November.

I'll never be a supporter, I'll never have an "H->" avatar of Clinton photos in my sig line.

That said, she's what we've got. It will be a choice between her and Trump, unless the RNC decides to throw him under the bus at the convention, and so far they have shown themselves to be cowards who are all tough talk and nothing else.

Someone posted an old video on DU yesterday. He asks her if we should have stuck with the hunt for binLaden, rather than having gone into Iraq.

"Well, Chris, I think we can do more than one thing at a time."

That's probably what concerns me the most...that she can do "more than one thing at a time."

Am I concerned about Wall Street / Big Banks getting richer while the working class struggles? Yes.

Am I concerned about remaining in every war we are in and adding new ones? Yes.

Does she have a track record that justifies my having these concerns? Yes.

And we have three choices in November: Vote for her, vote for Trump, don't vote. I'm not including third-party candidates on this list because I don't believe they would have a chance of succeeding in this election cycle.

I can't do the second, don't feel that great about the third, and a vote for her would be a vote against my values and conscience. If it stops Trump, will my conscience feel better? No. And I have five months to decide what I'm going to do, just like the rest of us.

[Adrahil]

74. Not necessarily....

A person can be of excellent character and still not suitable to be President.

[laserhaas]

77. That's not an issue...this time

And neither Hillary...nor Trump..are certified..as of yet

[grossproffit]

87. Hillary is the Democratic nominee.

[RB TexLa]

83. I don't care about someone's character.

This is an adult world.

[laserhaas]

85. Obviously...that's why We're in this dilemma

[pnwmom]

84. The Rethugs spent $70 million and several years trying to damage Hillary's character

during Bill's term, and countless dollars since then.

Few have had their character tested as much as Hillary, and the worst they can come up with is copying Colin Powell in using a private email..

[ContinentalOp]

88. It's funny, Sanders supporters have always said that it's about the issues

But now you admit that it's really about "character." Meaning that you just don't like her. I knew this was the case all along because their stated positions on the issues are not that far apart, but Sanders supporters just assume that she is always lying and pandering. It's always been about personality over the issues.

[grossproffit]

90. Ding, ding, ding!

[NuclearDem]

91. JFK and FDR were absolute bastards.

GWB was a choir boy.

You can be a saint and still have disastrous, horrid ideas, and you can be a right prick and still have the vision and capability to do great things.

[Lil Missy]

92. yes, and she won.