2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOne reason people are turned off by politics is the Phoniness. Bernie is not a phony.
The intense desire for Sanders to do the usual political Kabiki dance is really getting to some people.
Oh when will Bernie bow down and proclaim his undying support for Clinton and brush all the things he has been fighting for under the table?
He could be a phony and smile and say "I endorse Hillary. I love her so much. She is the most qualified person to be President Ever!"
Nope that's not how he rolls.
And he shouldn't. He -- like millions of people who support him, do NOT want to see the Democrats to just forget all of the issues, and revert to the usual suppression of anything out of the mold.
The notion that Sanders is expected to shift on a dime and kiss Clinton's butt and totally dump everything he has said for the past year indicates that people are used to political phoniness....The slick cliches. The dog and pony shows. The Kaubki dances. Even the fake ginned up outrage against opponents, simply because they are opponents, followed by "Oh I love him/her so much. Forget all that stuff I said during the campaign."
Sanders has been real throughout the campaign. He could have spoon fed politically correct happy talk. He could have been less blunt, and engaged in the usual political double speak.
No he is pushing for something. Honest politics. And he has touched a chord in many who want honmest politics.
And, even though he is not likely to be the nominee -- and he knows it -- he is going to continue to press for what he and the millions who have supported him believe.
He WILL endorse Clinton, and he'll work hard to help her win. But he's not going to be a phony about it. And he shouldn't.
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Whimsey
(236 posts)He's not a democrat, never has been, and ran as one because he thought it would be easier than mounting an independent campaign. Now he won't support the democratic nominee because he has never been a democrat.
He is a phony.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)saying he was unqualified and worse during the Primary.
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)
rock
(13,218 posts)A popular activity of BSers.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)whatever your name was on DU back at the time he was deciding whether or not to run as a Democrat, I'd bet dollars to donuts you were insisting he run "as a Democrat" and not be another Nader. All the establishment cheerleaders were insisting that back then, now they want to claim he shouldn't have run as a Democrat. Pretty preposterous IMO.
fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)On Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:27 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Well
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2197266
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is a personal attack. Saying things like "whatever your name was on DU back at the time..." is a not-so-subtle way of publicly accusing someone of being a 'zombie' or 'sock-puppet'.
Things like this make DU suck. Zombies and sock-puppets are handled by MIRT, not by public accusations.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:40 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh good grief. The post in which this is a reply is more disruptful, imho, as Bernie Sanders has said he would work with Hillary Clinton to defeat Trump, badly.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Another stupid alert.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nope.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)it had been alerted on.
intheozone
(1,102 posts)
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)are hurting us all. He believes in a socially responsible democratic society. Don't we all? He is real and true to this cause. It is hard to believe is a day when morals and commitments sway like willow branches that he is not budging . As long as I have been following him @ 10 years he has been consistent and true to this cause. He will help us win the White House and help us fight for a better
society.
Who could have a problem with that?
RazBerryBeret
(3,075 posts)Bernie is Genuine, Authentic and a man of Principle.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)LoverOfLiberty
(1,438 posts)that will not accept defeat in the face over overwhelming evidence.
When he accepts defeat and endorses Clinton, I promise you that I will retract this statement. Please, hold me to it. I love to be proven wrong.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Then he could bask in the love and gratitude of the Democratic Establishment, who would then pat him on the head and say "Bernie you're so loyal. We all love you."
LoverOfLiberty
(1,438 posts)be unable to admit defeat.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)That's not how ego works.
TNProfessor
(83 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Being a career politician does not in itself make a definition of phony. What one does with a political career is what matters.
SpareribSP
(325 posts)
MelissaB
(16,420 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)but waiting that long for someone to reveal their antagonistic nature is tedious.
elias7
(3,998 posts)To state that it is ego that keeps him in the race, means to me that either you don't really understand Sanders, or you're pulling a classic Rovian move.
This particular attack has undermined the righteousness of many Hillary supporters I had a lot of respect for.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)Now I think I'd prefer a three dollar bill.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)Self righteous, egotistical, and hypocritical.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... that he say anything of the kind. Complete strawman.
It takes character to admit defeat, and to acknowledge that your opponent has won.
Bernie has now proven beyond all measure that he lacks the character to do so.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)If his only goal was to become President Bernie Sanders....yeah. He was defeated.
But his larger goal has been since the beginning to bring a new perspective into the political system, and to represent the goals and frustrations of millions of people -- and to prove that the goals he stated are not just a "fringe position."
And he did that...Much more than anyoine ever envisioned, including Bernie himself.
And as he said in the speech, it is not justr about one election or one politician. That campaign is still going on, and will continue long past November.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... with acknowledging that he LOST this particular election?
Conceding has sweet fuck all to do with "larger goals", "new perspectives", the "frustration of millions".
It has to do with saying "I gave it my best, but I LOST" - in the same way every candidate who has lost a primary race in the past has done.
Throughout this process, we have heard that all primaries should be open - because Bernie. Debates should be scheduled at certain times on certain nights - because Bernie. The list goes on.
Bernie's campaign has been All About Bernie from day one - and now we're all supposed to sit around while Bernie, the loser, makes his demands on a party he fought against rather than for throughout his campaign?
Why? And "because Bernie" is not an acceptable answer.
Expecting the also-ran to acknowledge that he lost is a time-honoured tradition. Bernie doesn't get to "define that goal" - it's been defined by every primary race loser who went before him, and bowed out graciously and with class.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)"I'm pretty good at math" and laying off the campaign talk against Clinton....and saying his main goal is defeating Trump.....and meeting with Clinton.....And meeting with Obama and knowing what Obama was going to do, and not objecting publicly....It is pretty goddamn obvious that he is pivoting -- and sending strong signals that it's over.
He will at some point be out there giving speeches to urge people to vote for Clinton.
Sorry if he is not going to roll over and play dead though. It's not about Bernie. It's about the 40-43 percent of people who voted for him and don't see this as just an episode of Survivor or a sports match or a Beauty Contest between two personalities.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... is not a matter of "formalities" - it is a recognition of reality.
If the man can't deal with reality, it's proof positive that he would have been a disastrous candidate.
If you consider acknowledging the reality that Hillary WON the primary race as "rolling over and playing dead", that's a pretty good indication of how far from actual reality you have strayed.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)His position is not as shallow as are describing it. Like I said, it is not just a personal Beauty Contest between two candidates with nothing else at stake.
He has sent every sign that he knows it is over, he is trying to come to a resolution that makes it possible to work with Clinton to defeat Trump -- without tossing everything he and the 43 percent of those who have supported him have accomplished out the window.
Yeah it would be easy and neat to have just said by now "I have lost. She has won. I totally support her as president. Therefore nothing else matters."
He could just walk away and see the Democratic Party become a wholly owned subsidiary of Clinton Inc. And let his supporters slink away into apathy and depression and cynicism -- whetehr or not they vote for her against Trump.
Instead he is trying to follow through, and keep his supporters engaged in Democratic politics with some sense of belief that it matters.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)beyond what one could imagine, but here we are thanks to Bush and the Dems who went along and made the wrong decision.
And just saying time and time again that 'it was a mistake' on different issues is not an excusable, it is a precursor of what might happen in the future.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... that he LOST the primary race, because of Iraq?
Seems to me that has sweet fuck all to do with conceding.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)the terrorists, invading Iraq did.
Saying OMG he should concede and endorse Clinton is absolutely nothing in comparison to the extremely poor judgement of the Dems and Clinton who went along with Bush and his invasion, displacing, injuring and killing millions and what has transpired since.
His delay will not give rise to terrosists, this is not an urgent matter! Invading another country and destabilizing the region, well that is something.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)What does Bernie conceding have to do with any of this?
If he refuses to concede, does that change anything? The Party has moved on, the country has moved on. HRC is the nominee and will be the next POTUS, whether Bernie concedes or not.
What part of that do you - or Bernie himself - not understand?
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)He asked for donations last night...now I think he is pushing it as Sec. Clinton has won and is the presumptive nominee. Certainly, after the convention, I don't see how he can. As for his help...I would rather eat dirt. He can go back to the Senate...if he does not endorse than he is of no use.
-none
(1,884 posts)She does not have the required number of delegates and cannot get them because there are none left. So the campaign is still ongoing until the Democratic Convention, where the so-called super delegates come into play.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)Unless he is spending money on the primary...don't see how he can continue.
-none
(1,884 posts)Presumptive, meaning only that she appears to be the winner, maybe. The FBI and DoJ might be having a say in that also.
rock
(13,218 posts)Including Bernie. How can they now support Hillary after all the nastiness, and lies they have cast her way without appearing hypocritical? Even voting for her would be hypocritical. Oh yeah, by the way, Bernie is a con artist.
LuvLoogie
(7,001 posts)Triana
(22,666 posts)HATE him for that.
I mean, just look at them.
elleng
(130,895 posts)when it's before them.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)He began his campaign as an issues candidate who didn't think he would be a serious contender. He caught fire on college campuses but kept the same posture as an issues candidate. You see, an issues candidate can talk in terms of broad reaching proposals. But, it is inappropriate for a contender to make such broad proposals because now you're talking about a 4 year window. Sanders was making promises that he knew he wouldn't have the power in Congress to deliver in a 4 year window. That was phony.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)He asked for donations last night...now I think he is pushing it as Sec. Clinton has won and is the presumptive nominee. Certainly, after the convention, I don't see how he can continue to fund raise. As for his help...I would rather eat dirt. He can go back to the Senate...if he does not endorse than he is of no use.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)A list of all the things you'd like to do is great, but that's all that Bernie has given to his supporters - details on the how and the when have been lacking. I thought Clinton's proposals on (say) financial reform were much sounder because they were both extensive and well worked out; Clinton knows exactly which agencies need more funding and where the legislative and regulatory bottlenecks are. But when I've tried to explain this to Sanders supporters I get a blank stare because most of them are not very familiar with how the government is organized or how the agencies function or any of the legal and budgetary issues. They reflexively dismiss Clinton as a tool of big money but seem unfamiliar with or unable to comprehend her actual proposals.
To my mind Clinton is proposing reforms that are much farther-reaching than Sanders' proposals and have a much greater chance of success, but in nearly 6 months of primary season not one single Sanders fan that I've talked to has read them or been able to express an opinion on them after I provided them with links. I've come to the unhappy conclusion that they literally don't understand Clinton's proposals because they're too complicated, to the point that the campaign has defaulted to putting up a much simpler explanation with a link to the full proposals.
Sanders keeps telling his fans that it's all really simple, but after his many years as a legislator he knows full well that that is not the case, and frankly I feel that he's exploiting his fans' general ignorance of how the government functions. It's dishonest of him to pretend that it's a simple matter when he knows otherwise. Clinton, by contrast, works hard to educate voters about the structure and operation of government so that they know the significance of what they're voting for. .
If folks doubt this, here are the two candidates' proposals. Now you tell me who has the more comprehensive agenda here.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/reforming-wall-street/
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/10/08/wall-street-work-for-main-street/
jamese777
(546 posts)are well liked. The Democratic Party is truly a "Big Tent Party" and there are lots of different types of individuals who call themselves Democrats or left leaning Independents.
12,743,066 people (and still counting) liked Bernie Sanders enough and believe in his message enough to give him their vote.
16,554,096 people (and still counting) liked Hillary Clinton enough and believed in her message enough to give her their vote.
That's politics in a democratic republic.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)
He is worse than a phony A loser who wont let go
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)"I'm an 'outsider'," says the man who's been a politician for decades.
"I knew the rules going in," says the man who whinged about those rules every time he lost a contest, and acted as though they'd been put in place yesterday for the sole purpose of thwarting his campaign.
"We'll see," said the man when asked if he would honour his pledge to raise money for down-ticket Democrats.
"The super-delegates are unfair and undemocratic," said the man who then declared he would try and convince the SDs to ignore the will of the voters and hand him the nomination.
"Send money, because I can still win this," said the man to his donors when he KNEW he couldn't "win this" at all.
"What I stand for is free college tuition and single-payer healthcare," said the man who KNEW he could never deliver either.
Bernie proved himself to be a phony the second he asked to run as a Democrat, and then told his followers that the Party he was running for was run by corrupt corporate whores.
To this day, "Mr. Transparency" has yet to produce full and complete tax returns.
Bernie Sanders is as phony as they come.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I'm too tired to replying any depth.....but I gotta say you have strange priorities if you believe that stuff.
Bernie is not immune from criticism. But your analysis is way off base.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)Did Bernie NOT SAY that he planned to try and convince the SDs to ignore the voters and give him the nomination?
That declaration seems to be the Third Rail as far as BS supporters are concerned. They refuse to "go there". Just as Bernie won't acknowledge that he lost, his supporters won't acknowledge that he planned to go AGAINST everything he said he stood for by asking the SDs to hand him the nomination.
randome
(34,845 posts)
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)It's phony of Sanders to tell his supporters that he's going ot reform the financial sector when his policy proposals are so thin and consist mainly of hand-waving. Clinton's Wall street reform plans are way more detailed and far more persuasive to anyone familiar with the structure of the federal government. Sanders tells his supporters what they want to hear but little or nothing of what they need to know. He is exploiting his audience's general cluelessness to present himself as a saviour, in the same way that a used-car salesperson claims to be concerned about helping someone get back on the road while selling them a car that almost sure to break down.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)When Bernie claims to be an outsider, obviously he is not claiming something that is inconsistent with his having held political office for decades. Your suggestion to the contrary reveals your extreme bias against him. Let me give you a clue. His claim to be an outsider has something to do with the connection between wealth and politics.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)
demwing
(16,916 posts)poll driven messaging, "evolving" as a euphemism for backtracking, and communications unbound by the limitations of integrity are what passes for political savvy. When Bernie defies the expectation to play the game it really seems to piss them off, perhaps because it makes them feel as if their candidate were a politicized Siri, mindlessly reciting the latest poll results.
That can't be fun.
brooklynite
(94,528 posts)If that's his strategy, the response is likely to be "who"?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)This is not just some ego trip by one cranky old codger.
Bernie represents something much bigger than his own political career -- and he tapped into something shared by almost half the party (and more, if the actual beliefs of many Clinton supporters are factored in).
If he just abandons that and lets that once again be suppressed by the Democratic political machine.....well we're all the worse off. Including partisan Democrats who want to see the party be a vital force for good.
brooklynite
(94,528 posts)...she didn't dawdle on endorsing AND working with the nominee, and her voters didn't need to be coddled into joining them.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)This has not simply been a Personality Beauty Contest.
Bernie and us see bigger fish to fry than whether Bernie is the nominee. He's not prepping himself for a run in four or eight years.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)I have never seen a candidate behave as he has...expect the Dems have about had enough of his antics...every day...he becomes less and less relevant.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)Oh and please send money...
-none
(1,884 posts)Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)He hurts the general. He is in it for Bernie...and time will tell about the clean part...the story of his losing campaign has yet to be written.
-none
(1,884 posts)Do you have a problem with a politician who keeps their word?
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)Bernie is helping the average American. That alone is working against Trump. What is so hard to understand here?
That talking point is passé anyway. Bernie is no friend of Trump and never was.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)We have been hearing for months fromt eh Sanders camp that Clinton is in the pocket of Wall Street, bought and paid for yadda yadda yadda because she gave some highly paid speeches (by the standards of people who know nothing about the public speaking industry) to some wall street banks of whom they disapprove. Clinton has an excellent and comprehensive set of reform proposals for the financial sector which most Sanders fans either seem completely unaware of or have proven to be incapable of discussing, while Sanders' own Wall Street reform plans are a joke, little more than a set of bullet points with no detail to speak of.
I very much want to see Clinton's financial reform agenda fully implemented. She has demonstrated a detailed understanding of the legislative and regulatory issues and the operation of the federal government, and has a whole raft of specific and concrete proposals, many of which could be put into action on her first day in office. But they have gone almost undiscussed for the last 6 months because they're too complicated for Sanders' fans to understand and every attempt to discuss them is shouted down by people who tragicomically believe themselves to be better informed than everyone else, while actually being quite ignorant of how their own government operates.
Sanders' campaign has been a huge asset to Trump, not least because it has promoted passionate ignorance as being superior to well-informed policymaking.
https://www.sott.net/article/313177-The-cult-of-ignorance-in-the-United-States-Anti-intellectualism-and-the-dumbing-down-of-America
-none
(1,884 posts)The very same people who are making her rich and also financial her campaign? Really there?
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)She has a much more detailed and plausible set of reform proposals than Bernie does, but you'd never know that from reading GD-P. Here it is: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/10/08/wall-street-work-for-main-street/
Notice how this was published in October of last year, but 8 months later the only thing most Bernie fans can tell you about Hillary Clinton is that she gave some speeches at Goldman Sachs in exchange for money. I'd be fine if you were saying 'Oh Hillary's plan isn't good enough because (some specific objection)' but so far my experience has been that when I ask Sanders supporters what they think of her Wall Street reform suggestions none of them have been able to name a single one.
Here are Bernie's proposals: https://berniesanders.com/issues/reforming-wall-street/
Now look at them both and tell me whose plan is more comprehensive.
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)He said at the beginning he would go to the end. That's what he's doing so he can speak for us. His ideas took root and he brought a whole lot of people into the party with his honesty. He deserves credit, not insults.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)
MaeScott
(878 posts)Since their candidate is pandering to pubs but won't acknowledge the Populist progressives, the real heart of the Democratic Party.
This party needs an enema
djean111
(14,255 posts)75 replies, and I only see 14 of them. I doubt I am missing anything of substance or value.
jonestonesusa
(880 posts)There's too much at stake to resort to fake smiles and false humility. I'm glad that Sanders is committed to the issues he ran on and desires for those issues to increase in stature in the six weeks before the convention. Sanders is still speaking to voters and providing motivation for others to carry on. I'm proud to be a supporter and hope that other Democrats will think long and hard about what policies are best suited to create a better future.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)to gain support. Then once he has power, refuses to yield it for what appears to be purely personal validation.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Paladin
(28,255 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)My compliments on your pitchforking skills.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)a word against Caucasus. Phony
