Dem Platform Committee Votes Down $15 Min Wage Amendment

[SoLeftIAmRight]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017387959

56 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	I agree with this position
	12 (21%)
	Smells of third way waste
	39 (70%)
	I do not agree
	5 (9%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[taught_me_patience]

1. I'm completely against a $15 national minimum wage

It's simply way to high for many areas of the US, and will negatively impact the economy. It's ok for some very expensive cities like NYC or SF.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

3. your words are so very very wrong

Where in america is 30,000 a year too much.


"negatively impact the economy" - these are bullshit right wing words

[Travis_0004]

5. So why stop at 15 then? Lets make it 50?

I think you would agree that minimum wage at 50.00 an hour would not be helpful.

So you would agree that there has to be middle ground. Perhaps you two disagree on where it should be.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

8. lol

1 - because that was the issue being voted on
2 - ok - but we would need to make some other changes
3 - not really
4 - nope - wrong again

[Hortensis]

44. Everyone who works full time should earn a

living wage, sufficient to reliably meet basic needs.

The minimum wage needs to be raised substantially to meet that very basic standard, levels varying from region to region and town to town based on extensive analysis of what level will deliver the greatest benefits for the least sacrifice. Setting the same minimum for the entire nation would cause jobs to be moved away from many poorer areas since it would remove a major reason for locating them there in the first place. No job, no wage at any level.

[rgbecker]

51. On the contrary, businesses will move to "poor" areas where suddenly people will have some money.

What was the major reason for locating them there in the first place? Cheap labor? Where are they going to find cheaper labor except in the third world? Clearly a stop to the free trade elites and GOP needs to happen at the same time.

[Hortensis]

66. Poor areas tend to have bad services, including

policing. Plus, owners and managers all live elsewhere don't want to commute to or live in/near low income areas; it's the promise of higher profits that bring factories to south Georgia. You make a good point that there might be enough more money to support a Dollar Store and a couple other struggling small local businesses that employ their owners at least. But those are tertiary businesses which normally develop after factories, busy warehouses, food processing plants, etc., provide more than a handful of jobs and bring money into an area.

[CaptainSensible]

80. Living wage

I think you're confusing LIVING WAGE with MIN WAGE. Certainly people should earn a living wage. Earning a living wage would indeed ease a lot of challenge of stepping out on your own when first leaving home or having graduated from college. Even in a case involving say, a forty year old male should earn a LIVING WAGE. Right?

A single adult living in Monterrey Cry, CA LIVING WAGE is $12.28. This is a fairly expense place to live actually with Pebble Beach, Carmel and Monterrey.

BTW, I'm using the MIT LIVING WAGE interactive map, developed by the creator of the Living Wage concept, Amy Glassmeier.

This wage calculator actually reveals a much wider scope than I expected with many locations falling below the $9.50.

I'm wondering if the proposal to the DNC Platform Commission based the $15 hr figure on a LIVING WAGE number, and if so to which location was the factor attached? Was it intended to factor a single adult, a mother and child? Just wanting to understand the disconnect if one exists.

[Hortensis]

81. I'm not confused, Cap'n, just not "official."

I'm not speaking of economists' definition, just my own feeling.

A person working steady full time should be able to sustain himself at a basic modern standard. Housing may be only a room rented in someone else's house, but stable, and all the other basic necessities, plus a little extra that can be accumulated so that an unexpected extra expense doesn't devastate. That's just where I want to see minimum wage for full-time work.

Those are very good questions and now I wonder too. Frankly, it seemed too much to hope we'd actually go straight to a level able to sustain a person. In my off-the-cuff model someone with a child and no family or close friends to help would likely need to apply for some assistance.

[CaptainSensible]

77. $15 hr min wage rejected BY DNC Plat Comm

Help me understand please. Are you saying that $15 an hr (new proposed min wage) for a full time person working 40 hr work week is $30k?

My math is 40 hrs X $15 hr = $600 X 52 weeks in the year. Is this what you're saying?

And you're asking where in the US is $30,000 yr too much? Is this correct?

The proposal is to hike the minimum wage up to $15 hr, again, is this correct?

[Red Mountain]

16. The areas where it is "too high"

Need it the most.

Go figure.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

21. wow - great observation - many thanks

...

[CrispyQ]

76. This is about a year old.

Even the states where it cost less than $15 per hour to rent a 2 bedroom - it's not that much less! When I rented my first place it was standard to not spend more than 25% of your income for housing. Now, I know some people spending 50-65%.

[CrowCityDem]

2. I agree with Hillary. A raise is needed, but $15 is too high for some areas.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

4. that idea is shit

is is cruel to take most of a persons life and not offer something decent in return

[Hortensis]

36. Seriously underpaying is cruel, I agree. But

I completely disagree that their lives are "taken" from them.

People sell their work in return for remuneration. It's true that, in part since Americans themselves spit on unionization and their own right to collectively bargain, remuneration has been dropping for the ones who, in general, do not have college degrees. That's not okay.

However, imo the idea that peoples' lives are "taken" from them because they have to work to support themselves is a bogus "victimized" orientation. Absolutely everything we have was created by the work of people, usually many. No work, no potato. Yes, some few do get to be only takers, but that does not make all those who stand on their own feet and carry their own weight victims.

[CaptainSensible]

82. The Rubicon where Min Wage, Living Wage and Meet Basic Needs Wage

So I see mention of a LIVING WAGE, a MIN WAGE and a WAGE ENOUGH TO MEET BASIC NEEDS. I have to say that in my mind these are three independent amounts. In Atlanta, where it isn't cheap, a lifestyle that affords a one bedroom apt costing say $970 mo, a single healthy adult could live well on less than $24k. Might not be the most exciting, but you wouldn't be "bumming" necessarily. A roommate would certainly improve things considerably.
So that's BASIC NEEDS WAGE.

Next is the MIN WAGE of $30k ($15 hr), would obviously provide a somewhat nicer living experience for sure worn the extra $6k added from the $24k I'm certain a "BASIC NEEDS" existence could be had quite comfortably.

And finally, the LIVING WAGE SCENARIO. I'm not convinced that indexing the MIN WAGE to "the" LIVING WAGE would provide any useful info. Afterall, the $15 MIN WAGE rejected by the DNC, is likely not attached to a LIViNG WAGE because it has already exceeded a fair portion of the numbers found at the MIT calculator.

As for $30k a year as a proposed living wage, assuming this figure is a realistic number, I cannot honestly imagine a cashier or grill operator at McDonald's a $30k a yr compensation.

This arrangement betrays the legitimacy of the fast food business model, without a doubt. Whole Foods had boasted of paying a living wage for more than a decade. I'm not certain of the current rate actually.

But Whole Foods operates a unique business model. Their employees who are paid a living wage CANNOT afford to shoo due groceries there. Partly because their retail prices are inflated to accommodate the extra cost incurred by maintaining their commitment to pay a living wage. Although I'm not sure that by removing the increased markup, a single adult could afford to shop for groceries at Whole Foods.

I have no idea where you live but if you're living costs to meet basic needs for a single adult and a one bedroom apt, come close to $30k a yr, something is out of sync.

I suppose one person's basic needs compared to the next night very well differ greatly. Naturally lifestyle plays a huge role, but if a new minimum wage paying $15 hr was approved, I would absolutely be blown away.

Do you mind if I ask your location, whether you've finished school yet, graduate, new job yet or been at it for a while already? Just curious.

[Hortensis]

85. Interesting post. I'm not speaking technically,

only that I personally feel that in a fabulously wealthy nation like our own the minimum wage should be a living wage. If we want to set it higher than that, fine. More consumer demand. If that strains our pockets, there are far deeper ones we can drain. We really, really need to do that anyway.

As for the figure and how it would relate to $15/hour, it wouldn't. It would vary not only from region to region but from different areas of a county and, yes, be indexed to inflation and deflation. Government would help offset regional problems where a living wage was incompatible with profits. (Speaking theoretically, we actually have the technology available to literally set a minimum wage for every person using data now available for most developed areas of the nation -- if we ever chose to do such a thing. When applying for a job, on the application would be, "This is a minimum-wage position. Do you have an assigned minimum wage? If so, what is it? )

I'm a California to Deep South transplant, college grad very long ago now, semi-retired. College included four econ classes that I remember very little of. And how to make it work for the fast food model is someone else's problem, except to note that demand for 80-cent hamburgers would drop precipitously in a society where poverty was unusual.

We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

[rgbecker]

10. "Too High" What the Fuck is that supposed to mean?

You don't want to get the economy moving? We are talking about people at the bottom of the barrel making enough to not have to tap into the governments safety nets. Explain to me the downside to paying people a living wage?

Let's see.

If you pay people $15 an hour to flip burgers, people will quit their construction jobs to take the easy job? I don't think so.

If I have to pay people $15 an hour everybody will go to my competition to get their burgers. Hey, your competition pays $15 too!

I only make $15 myself and its not fair that somebody who used to make $7.00/hr suddenly gets the same pay as me.....WTF?

Suddenly people will have too much money, more than they need to spend and they will start saving it and the economy will tank.

Better go back to school and take Econ 101 this time.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

19. many many thanks

not my objections - but there atre so very many - nice to hear others

[JRLeft]

48. Far too many conservative ideologues on this site.

[Maru Kitteh]

64. No force compells anyone to stay who does not wish to. nt

[OrwellwasRight]

71. Yes it does.

Many forces compel people to stay:

-hunger
-need for shelter
-children who need to be fed and cared for
-need for clothing

Your argument sounds like the classic (and infamous) Milton Friedman film series "Free to Choose," which I was forced to watch under duress in order to pass my Intro to Microeconomics class in undergrad. It was not a progressive film series. It argues that starvation wages and deplorable living conditions are fine because people "choose" to enter those living and working conditions voluntarily and their children will have an opportunity to do better some day.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. I don't know, but Skinner seems a decent man

I'll admit ignorance of his responsibility for

-hunger
-need for shelter
-children who need to be fed and cared for
-need for clothing

I am curious. While enduring this unpleasant, undergraduate instruction; did you take notes randomly, giving no attention to topic or sequence?

For reference; the post which I replied to:
Star Member JRLeft (6,404 posts)
48. Far too many conservative ideologues on this site.

[OrwellwasRight]

75. If you think people making $7.75 an hour

have a choice not to stay in their jobs, I hope you have new thoughts coming your way.

And reference Skinner all you want. Alert even. It's cool.

[CaptainSensible]

84. Assistance

The thing you seem to be leaving out of the equation is for a minimum wage to be increased, the current market codification must support the increase. There are exceptions like in the event the gov't will create various programs that basically result in subsidizing the wage disparity, but you have to raise that doing so it's a form of welfare. The difference had to be paid for somehow. Doubtful that a Mom & Pop will take the hit. So then it's between you or the gov't. Economics 101.

I don't realistically see $15 hr minimum wage right now. $12-$13 maybe. If you feel that amount will be a burden, that causes me to wonder how that is happening. I wonder if you are living in an expensive city etc. Maybe you have exorbitant expenses or a recent change in your earnings/expenses ratio.

No offense, but I know for a fact that a single adult can comfortably live in nice one bed in Atlanta for less than $24k, without slumming it, too.

Assistance? Maybe. Maybe foodstamps would be a good idea. But at $24k yr, you wouldn't qualify unless you are paying a shit load of bills or medical.

[Red Mountain]

18. Poverty loves company

Don't want to be anti-social.

[Ken Burch]

25. It can't lead to anything good to reject $15.

half-measures on things like this means we always stay at the half-measure.

[floriduck]

49. I watched Hillary say in a debate she was for $15 and there were no caveats. Are you suggesting

she didn't mean it?

[CrowCityDem]

54. She said she would sign it if passed, but still preferred her plan.

[David__77]

6. In inflation-adjusted terms, in 1968, the minimum wage was $11.05.

In per capita terms, wealth in this country has grown a lot since 1968. A $15 minimum wage makes sense to me. I understand that jobs will be eliminated. It won't be good for everyone on a short-term or even medium-term basis. I think it would act as a "whip" to facilitate greater economic efficiency of labor.

[JaneyVee]

7. $12/hr should be fed minimum with high COL areas higher.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

14. why?

sounds cruel to me

what can one do to build a life making 12 dollars an hour?

[JaneyVee]

37. These are minimum wages.

And Dubuque Iowa doesnt get the same foot traffic and sales as Manhattan NY. Businesses are allowed to pay more, these are just minimums.

[floriduck]

52. That would be $27400/ year. That's near the poverty level, no matter where you live.

[stone space]

9. I disagree with this position, and would have voted that way, had you provided such an option.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

11. ok - just for you

third option

[stone space]

12. Thanks. (nt)

[Ken Burch]

29. When you say you disagree, in which way do you disagree? and with WHICH position?

I'm not clear whether you disagreed with the idea of raising the minimum wage, or would like to see the wage raised more?

Not trying something...just looking for clarity.

And what other option would you have like to see?

[stone space]

57. What is currently the 3rd option. See my vote. (nt)

[Ken Burch]

58. Thanks. n/t.

[OKNancy]

13. I agree with other who say that $15.00 is too high for some parts of the US

The cost of living varies so much. You can buy a nice 3 bedroom, 1600 sq ft home in some towns in Oklahoma for $120,000. ( I just looked at one in Poteau OK)

A top paid trades person here in Tulsa makes 17 - 20 per hour.
Minimum wage needs to take into account cost of living.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

15. sounds cruel to me

can you show me how to live on 12 dollars an hour?

[OKNancy]

22. Minimum wage is MINIMUM... it's not supposed to be

something that is a lifetime wage.

If someone makes $12.00 an hour and was single, they could make it fine in many places in America.
Not on the east or west coasts of course.
You obviously don't live in small town America.

[bonemachine]

24. Riiiiiight

[rgbecker]

28. +1000

Roosevelt, so right on so many issues.

[OKNancy]

33. no thanks dear

I know I'm right and I don't need someone who knows nothing about living in rural America telling me to prove something.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

35. lol

score one for the good guys

ha ha ha

[Ken Burch]

31. With the way our economy has been changed since 1981

A lot of people never get the chance to move out of low-wage employment.

Not because there is anything lacking in the effort or work ethic of those people, but because the system IS rigged.

[Kaleva]

34. I live on $1158 a month SSDI

plus a $134 a month VA benefit. That would come out to $8.07 an hour after taxes.

$50.00 property taxes
$45.00 fire insurance
$25.00 garbage pickup
$96.00 phone/internet
$8.00 VA prescription pill co-pay
$55.00 water/sewer
$45.00 electricity (average over 12 months)
$45.00 gas (average over 12 months)
$60.00 scooter payment
$300.00 food/clothing
$150.00 home improvement loan
----------------------
$879.00 total

$1292-$8799=$413 remaining

[SoLeftIAmRight]

41. sounds like a harsh existence - I am so very sorry - also

It seems that your house is paid for - that helps

and you have VA benefits - that helps

many do not have those perks

And you have no job???

So, you have plenty of time to cook and make the 300 dollar food budget doable?

here scooters must be insured

no school loans? lol

you are fugal when it come to energy consumption - hope you don't over heat - or freeze

[Kaleva]

56. I didn't consider it harsh. I looked at it as a challenge.

To get as much as I could out of every dollar.

Here is a thread of mine from back in 2012 when I was first trying to be as frugal as possible:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11281493

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11282580

[DLCWIdem]

50. I make 10/hr i work for a non-profit buthave no children or dependents

I would love 12/hr

[JaneyVee]

38. Well, I know where Im retiring....if I ever get to.

My current rent in Manhattan is $2876.43 month and my apartment is the size of 4 shipping containers and I live on the 4th floor of a 4th floor walkup (no elevator) and Im raising 2 little boys. But this city is amazing.

[OKNancy]

43. my sister lives in the west village

she will be coming back to Oklahoma to retire.. LOL
I know the politics sucks, but in day to day life, it really is not that bad.
People are nice here, even the rednecks.

[NWCorona]

39. The top tier rate for journeyman level craftsmanship is $20 an hr?

That's a shame on many levels.

[Nye Bevan]

17. I just took a long road trip. Pizzeria Uno is already setting up ordering tablets on every table.

Right now they are just for ordering appetizers and desserts, so servers are still needed, but no way are those servers earning $15 per hour. Raise the minimum wage to that level and watch the automated ordering, self-checkouts and so on absolutely explode.

You really need to think through the argument beyond "hey! Wouldn't it be great if these people's wages all got doubled to $15 per hour!"

[Red Mountain]

20. It's going to happen anyway

So why penalize the people who do have jobs?

[NWCorona]

40. Exactly

[OrwellwasRight]

70. What?

Paying someone $15 an hour instead of starvation wages is "punishing" them? I don't understand.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

25. no we can't - no we can't - no we can't

you might want to - here I will quote you " think through the argument "

i say you are flinging right wing talking points on this subject - also

[rgbecker]

27. If a job can't pay $15/hr it probably isn't worth doing.

Bring on the machines, lots of good jobs making them.

I'd like to hear what you came up with after all the thought. Is this it? Everybody is going to shut down their businesses because they can't afford the help?

[Nye Bevan]

32. Business owners are continually weighing the pros and cons of things like automation.

Say a technology company approaches a supermarket chain and offers to install and maintain automatic self-checkouts in exchange for $12 per hour of operation per machine. When humans can do the job for (say) $10 per hour that is not a particularly attractive proposition. But raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour and the self-checkout proposal becomes compelling.

And yes, there will be skilled jobs created installing, programming and maintaining the machines, at the expense of the many lower paid jobs that are lost.

[NWCorona]

42. And those business won't have the same appeal as they once had.

I don't want the self-service check out line experience when I'm out eating.

[philosslayer]

67. I do

No miscommunication and I know the order will be correct

[Ken Burch]

23. Only conservatives can be happy about this.

It can't gain us votes in the fall.

No one who wants a low minimum wage agrees with us on anything that matters.

[fun n serious]

45. 12.00 is nearly a 4 $ increase is it not? nt

[Ken Burch]

55. If the initial proposal is to raise it to $12, it will probably be cut to $10 or $9 dollars

After going through Congress.

It can't even be worth raising it if the raise ends up THAT small. If it's reduced to that, it means there won't be any signficant increases down the line.

The proposal needs to be $15 to even get to $12.

[fun n serious]

46. $15.00 is not possible

in many small towns and small businesses.

[OrwellwasRight]

72. Negotiating yourself down is not

an effective strategy.

This sounds recommending that MLK, Jr. should have marched for a seat on the bus, bit not for equal pay. For voting rights but no end to redlining home ownership. No, the position of the civil rights movement as and is full equality in every way.

Our goal should be our goal -- not what we think power is willing to concede to us.

[NWCorona]

47. Why do we always have to adopt a half loaf approach from jump?

This $12 talk is purely bait and switch. They want to come at you with that number so when it's "compromised" down to say $10 they can claim that something was accomplished.

Meanwhile productivity is stretched to the breaking point while CEO pay steadily increases.

[still_one]

53. Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree is "third way waste"?

What kind of poll is that?

Setting up a poll that refers to anyone who does not agree with the polls premise as "waste", is intentional flame baiting

[msongs]

60. disagree,have an alternative viewpoint = third way waste dont ya know. nt

[Andy823]

62. I notice that too.

Seems like some are trying to test the limits as to the new rules.

[still_one]

63. Yes it does. At the minimum it is a overt attempt at a push poll. "When did you stop

beating your wife?"

[GeorgeGist]

59. Like so many Dem positions ...

set your demand LOW.

[TCJ70]

65. Giving up things in advance is pragmatic...

...or something.

[RobertEarl]

61. Dem Platform Committee to Working Poor

Eat Cake!

That's a losing proposition. No wonder democrats are in the minority. We can't even support working poor people. Why should they vote for us?

[Fla Dem]

68. Gotta read beyond the headlines folks. $15 minimum wage was already in the Democratic Platform

Draft. Rep Keith Ellison wanted to amend the platform with some additional language regarding the $15 minimum wage . That amendment was what was voted down 8-6. $15 wage has been in platform since first draft.

Ellison offered additional amendments designed to strengthen the document’s commitment to a $15 minimum wage and employment guidelines for federal contractors — issues championed by Sanders on the campaign trail. Both were rebuffed by Paul Booth of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees union, who was named to the committee by Clinton.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/unity-efforts-hit-snag-at-final-meeting-over-democratic-platform/2016/06/24/2919fd06-3a3d-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html

June 24, 2016, 09:38 pm
Dems adopt $15 minimum wage in platform draft
By Evelyn Rupert

Democrats' platform drafting committee took a first step toward giving Bernie Sanders a major concession, voting to adopt language in support of a $15 minimum wage.

The committee, which will continue drafting the party's guiding document Saturday, also aligned itself with Sanders's support for progressive ideas such as abolishing the death penalty and expanding Social Security, the Associated Press reported. The minimum wage language adopted echoes a common refrain by Sanders, who has called the current federal minimum of $7.25 a "starvation wage."

The platform also tackles financial reform, calling for "an updated and modernized version of Glass-Steagall."

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/284888-dems-adopt-15-minimum-wage-in-draft-platform

I don't know why there is a need to post mis-information.

[bigwillq]

69. I do not agree with their decision (nt)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. The comfort of the rich relies on an abundant supply of the poor. Voltaire

The platform committee obviously agrees with Voltaire.

[Eleanors38]

78. Crisp, clean advocacy issues melt into a pocket full of mumbles. Bidness as usual.

[Bill USA]

79. platform includes: “raise and index the minimum wage.”

“raise and index the minimum wage.”

[Andy823]

83. This thread should be deleted

They $15.00 Min wage IS in the platform. Your information is wrong.