2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Privilege of Never Having to Say You'll Concede
This needs to be said. This is not a parlor game or intellectual debate. "If Bernie Sanders is such a progressive revolutionary, why does he insist on undermining an eminently qualified presidential candidate who can beat a fascistic demagogue?" A demagogue who in no uncertain terms has made clear unmitigated ill will towards millions of people?
This is a question none has answered satisfactorily without ignoring the real risk of Donald Trump, his policies and his minions. The lives of minorities, women, immigrants, children and the disabled are constantly being threatened by an egomaniacal leader and his millions of hate filled, armed and dangerous followers. Those who continue to prevaricate are not courageous or progressive when those who have the most to lose are in danger.
Moving the Democratic platform to the left is a laudable goal, but it isnt one that he alone has led. There have been many movements, including the movement to end the Hyde Amendment, the Fight for 15, and the #BlackLivesMatter movement, that have pushed the Democratic party to the left. But Bernie Sanders is presenting it as if he himself is the leader of this progressive revolution, as if he and his candidacy have been doing all of the work. This is privileged ignorance at best, and sinister appropriation at worst. Sanders has constructed himself as the progressive revolutionary savior that we have all been waiting for, a privileged and entitled point of view if there ever was one. He is unwilling to stop mansplaining to the country that hes right because either he believes so deeply that he is right and we are wrong or does he sense that this is the one time that he will ever be this relevant to American politics and his male ego is unwilling to let this go?
The potential of a fascist America is more real than ever. Thats not hyperboleits a fact. A candidate for president from one of the two major American political parties has called for: the closing of the border between Mexico and the United States and the mass deportation of immigrants; a closing of the border to Muslim immigrants; assassinating the family members of suspected terrorists (a blatant war crime, by the way); the criminalization of women who have abortions; and the list goes on. The Bernie or Bust argument seems innocuous if you arent one of the millions of marginalized people whose health, rights, and lives depend on the November election results. To stay in a race that you mathematically cannot win against the first woman presidential candidate of either major party is privileged enough. To do it when the country is facing a very possible descent into fascism? Thats just dangerous.
While Bernie Sanders claims that it is important to defeat Donald Trump, many of his supporters are not convinced. These people, many of whom are young white men who proudly label themselves the real progressives, are watching as the United States stares down the barrel of a fully loaded gun of racism, misogyny, and xenophobia and are shrugging. To even hint at voting for Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton, or claim that they are the same, is privilege personified.
These are the Bernie Bros": white men who support Bernie Sanders but seemingly ignore the issues that affect marginalized people, who bellow and bully women and people of color for supporting Hillary Clinton, who claim ideological purity without having their rights and lives on the line.
http://www.damemagazine.com/2016/06/29/privilege-never-having-say-youll-concede
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and the privilege of calling for unfairness or rigging of the system like a crybaby instead of biting the bullet and accepting that a majority of the electorate simply doesn't like you.
Arkansas Granny
(31,514 posts)It's time to get together and move forward to defeat Trump and elect more Democrats to Congress.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... cause for the dem side it wasn't that we didn't like the other candidate personally.
Don't know what influence Sanders thinks he has, few will answer what leverage he has outside of nuking everything and running with the greens.
No money for down ballot
Few followers left
No delegates that'll move to him
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Yeah, yeah! That's it! Tick tock!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)?itok=MN2qTbW_
Thats why Hill enthusiadtically gave her TOTALsupport to BHO. She knew the stakes, and put party over vanity.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Mass
(27,315 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 4, 2016, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)
Squinch
(50,944 posts)voting at all. They were open about it here before the primary ended, and they continue to be open in other sites that don't require support of Democrats.
I agree that most BS supporters are sane and reasonable people. In fact, 82% of them are.
But the remainder is a sizeable number, and those 18% are willfully flirting with fascism while INSISTING that they are being virtuous, insisting that they are the ONLY ones being virtuous and that everyone else is either ignorant or evil.
They say this about people like me, who has long supported Hillary, and people like you who may have preferred BS but will vote for Hillary. They do not distinguish between us.
I think this article calls those people what they actually are. Enablers of fascism.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Vocal Bernie or Buster. Kept typing enjoy President Trump over and over again when I celebrated Hillary's victory on my Facebook. I laughed and said, I have less to fear from Trump than he did because I don't have children. Fascinating that he doesn't think he would suffer from a President Trump and it will just be Hillary supporters.
Guy says he's supporting Johnson now. How you swing from socialist to libertarian boggles my mind. Needless to say, the person's political IQ isn't that high.
Response to Trenzalore (Reply #17)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)Still believe Bernie will win the nomination, and that what he is dong is pulling a fast on on the Clinton camp buying time to pull of whatever miracle he has up his sleeve to win. Those kind of supporters will never vote for Hillary, and once Bernie does endorse her, they will throw him under the bus. They are living in an fantasy world and refused to face reality.
Squinch
(50,944 posts)bus the moment he does that. They already started when the story came out that he said he would vote for her, before he walked it back. They were livid.
They need to keep his secret service detail up for quite a while after if he ever does endorse. I don't like what he is doing right now, but I have some fear for the guy from his own most rabid followers.
I know that many think that if he does not win the nomination, because Hillary cheats some how of course, with their fantasy scenario, they say he will be going over to the Green party to run in August. That's plan B. If he does not do that, and he has said he would not, then you may have a point about some of his more rabid followers going off the deep end. Bernie should know by now just how insane some of those followers really are, and he may have come up with a plan to try and neutralize their hostilities when the end of his campaign comes.
lapucelle
(18,245 posts)The problem is with Sanders. He had a window of opportunity to work towards unity, and he chose not to.
comradebillyboy
(10,143 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)Those who are not voicing their outrage and working to stop the real danger of Trump to millions of innocent people are either unaffected by it due to privilege, complicit or cowards. It isn't clear why anyone with progressive sensibilities would defend that or even feel an alliance with those who do. Where are the current rallies against Trump? Where are the marches? The only recent protests and demonstrations that are being mobilized by those on the left are against Hillary. Where are the protests and where is the outrage against Trump? The silence from the so-called far left progressives is deafening. This post is calling them out and they well need to be. Human and civil rights are at stake. The only group that is visibly and vocally challenging Trump right now is #BLM. We should never, ever be silent when the lives of the innocent are being threatened by a fascist and his hateful followers.
Mass
(27,315 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)and while I (and most others) strongly disagree with her strategy, at least her motives are specifically about protecting a minority community. Many of the so-called progressives who are complacent are not speaking to these issues at all and are in fact, minimizing their importance and the threat Trump poses to them.
Squinch
(50,944 posts)lillypaddle
(9,580 posts)sheshe2
(83,730 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And yes, it reeks of privelege.
justhanginon
(3,290 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)brer cat
(24,558 posts)redwitch
(14,944 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)while a fascist and his followers are actively threatening the lives of millions of minorities, women, immigrants and children.
redwitch
(14,944 posts)lapucelle
(18,245 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)He is the savior of the Democratic party.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)He has been in the Independent party, because he does not agree with the Democratic party, as he has stated many times. He will run as an Independent, not a Democrat, in his next senate run.
These facts. Mere facts. Only facts. Sanders words.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And it's not as though capitalism has ever been that great for women or POC.
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)Just saying something like that ignores every positive advancement the Dem party has ever made, both with and without Bernie's help.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Dems did the heavy lifting.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)went to Obama in '08. I believe more Sanders supporters are with Clinton now than Clinton supporters were with Obama on election day (at least, someone here was trumpeting that).
What he's doing is working, but unfortunately a lot of people are more interested in posturing than actual results.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)And there are many people who are not focused on stopping that. Anyone who ignores the threat Trump poses to minorities, women, children and immigrants cannot call themselves an active ally of those now at more risk than ever before.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)shouldn't be considered an ally, either. Again, the numbers are showing that Sanders strategy is working; his supporters are going to Clinton much faster than her supporters went to Obama in '08. It's hard to see how people who are actually interested in Democratic electoral victory could be complaining about this.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)Working as a united, coordinated force is always more effective than creating groups with disparate objectives. Most progressives believe there is too much at stake and are calling on those who are lingering to join the cause. Those who ignore Trump and treat him as an afterthought do so at the risk of innocent minority lives. That is not a gamble many progressives are willing to make.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)the standard that Sanders would be measured by back in April/May. At that time, people were asking if he could bring his supporters over to Clinton as well as Clinton brought hers over to Obama. The answer is no - he's actually been able to bring them over even better than Clinton did.
But now the goal posts have moved again, and succeeding even more than anyone thought just a few months ago is being treated like a failure. Why? Because 538 is "only" giving Clinton a 78% chance of victory? What's the threshold of success for Sanders to bring his followers over to Clinton - failure if he does as well as Clinton did in '08, failure if he does much better - does he have to do twice as well as Clinton to be considered successful? Five times? I have the feeling that no matter what he does, people here will keep claiming that it just isn't enough. Because they're not actually interested in the results, they're interested in how the strategy makes them feel personally.
Again, Clinton didn't do nearly as well in '08 and her effort to bring her supporters over to Obama was considered a success.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)That makes arguments otherwise irrelevant when so many are at risk in a way they have never been before.
As was said in the OP:
"This is a question none can answer satisfactorily without ignoring the real risk of Donald Trump, his policies and his minions."
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Then as soon as he's able to do better, the goal posts move and suddenly the comparison between the two is irrelevant? I tend to think the available facts are pretty relevant.
Not only that, but we have multiple posts and comments - some even in this thread - acting as if the number of Sanders supporters who have moved to Clinton is something to celebrate. If you've disagreed with any of these, feel free to share. Looking at this thread, it doesn't seem like any of those bothered you.
If you're simply one of the people who go:
"This is great news for Clinton!"
"So I guess Sanders strategy is working?"
"Oh, in that case it's terrible news for Clinton!"
then I'm not sure what your point is beyond concern trolling.
MelissaB
(16,420 posts)That is exactly what posts like this do.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)from Trump and his dangerous followers will focus on doing everything they can to stop him from being elected. There should be no room for passivity and unwillingness to unite in protest against his fascism and threats against the innocent.
MelissaB
(16,420 posts)None. Yes, that is what is happening.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)rateyes
(17,438 posts)As the OP and you acknowledge, Bernie has some considerable power. He is using that power to broker some needed change. I would venture to guess that were Hillary to come out tomorrow and not only say that she is against TPP, but call on Dem Senators to block its passage, and kept calling for it in her stump speech, and saw those Senators do that...and if she were to call for the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, and eschew the money for her corporate donors...and pledge to break up the big-banks and strengthen anti-trust laws like a real progressive, he would concede and endorse. His cause is more important than he is. He has power, and he is using it and I am glad he is using it, even if he has to take it to Philly and beyond. He is not going to give away that power, regardless of how many in the establishment say he should.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)For the Clinton Global Initiative, and I supported Bernie in the primary, and I do not feel insulted by Bernie refusing to drop out.
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)To the extent that Bernie's behavior is endangering that purpose, there is absolutely an excuse to attack him.
That said, I don't see too many attacks. I see a good deal of constructive criticism.
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)Whimsey
(236 posts)against Hillary which her supporters take with even temper. Say anything not positive about Bernie, and its considered an attack by his supporters. He is not a Democrat and he should be fair game on this website. And if you cannot support the Democratic party's nominee, why are you posting here?
melman
(7,681 posts)lolololol
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)who must be coddled and kissed and catered to.
If someone saying that Sanders should stop dawdling and endorse the presumptive nominee of the party he claims to be a part of wounds you so deeply that you won't vote for her, if only to ensure that she can beat the most dangerous candidate we've seen in decades, you don't need to be anywhere near a political discussion, much less a political movement.
There are plenty of potential voters among the Democratic base whom the Dems can focus on getting out to vote and who don't expect to have their their tears and asses kissed up and down Main Street from here to eternity. I'm focusing my attention on them and hope, if Bernie and his supporters continue on this path, the Party will do the same.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Hekate
(90,642 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)When Trump as POTUS is not in their best interests at all? They are adults right and can control their emotions in favor of rational decisions.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)is tainted.
I hope he doesn't endorse.
comradebillyboy
(10,143 posts)sows discord everywhere he goes. He will never support Hillary.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It's not that I saw anything clearly, it's simply that I saw his clout was at it's height and diminishing rapidly. I didn't think he was the big game changer I was being sold. In fact, I found him to be somewhat insignificant in the process.
EW over the last couple of weeks has done more than Sanders ever could. He just doesn't possess her sustainable clout. It's the difference between a politician with good-will and an angry activist. The two are no where near alike and that has really been proven here. Sanders not even being at the convention would only be covered as a blip on the radar. I would suggest he would get more coverage if he joined the protesters at the campground.
jalan48
(13,856 posts)This isn't a good sign.
comradebillyboy
(10,143 posts)without any help from Sanders. But it would be nice to see Sanders support the Democratic nominee for a change of pace. Only Sanders can choose whether he wants to be an asset or an obstacle in the fight against Trump. So far he has not been an asset.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)And Trump and his supporters are actively committed to making that inequity worse.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)But, those things in no way should negate Sanders' legal rights to voice his concerns and run his campaign in a manner which adheres to the law.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)If it's so important to beat Donald Trump, according to Bernie, why isn't he doing it? Supporting the presumptive Democratic nominee would be a major indication that he's serious.
We underestimate Donald Trump and the stupidity of some American voters at our peril. This is as serious as it can be; our very lives are at stake, and that's NOT hyperbole.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)Thank you!
It is past time. Progressives need to get on the right side of this issue. A 103 year old woman, who lived through WWI, the Depression, Hitler and WWII, the Cold War, VietNam, Nixon, Raygun and the Bushes, said Trump is the WORST, most dangerous candidate of her lifetime. Many agree with her. She said she just wants to live long enough to stop him and that electing Hillary is the only way to do that. She says she has never seen so many people in this country act the way so many of his supporters are. Simple, obvious wisdom from one who has seen it all and recognizes danger when she sees it.
comradebillyboy
(10,143 posts)aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)And as a result more people who aren't in love with HRC will vote for the Democratic nominee because of the party platform.
You don' t to have to like, but the more Bernie works on the Democratic party, the more votes HRC will get.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and why it is truly over.
The vast majority of Sanders supporters, support Clinton.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)to Bernie demonstrating that the party platform (what it stands for) is worth fighting over.
A lot of HRC supporters want Bernie to be a good little sheepdog and push liberal and lefties into the party, but what he is doing is creating a more attractive party or at least showing that liberal like him should try to press their issues within the party.
And I'm sure there are those Bernie supporters who truly are HRC supporters, too, and would support her just as much whether Bernie conceded/endorses 1 month ago or 2 months ago.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)His refusal to unite with the Democrats and our candidate against Trump while doing so is. He is continuing what is an unnecessarily adversarial relationship with the Dems and promoting the idea that our economic policies hurt the average voter. That absolutely is undermining HRC and the party and by extension, bolstering Trump. Bernie can vigorously campaign for our candidate while promoting economic progress the way Elizabeth Warren is doing. That approach would be a win/win for him and our chances of beating Trump. It is troubling that, even with what might be good intentions, there is a willingness to risk the lives of those who stand to suffer the most to promote ideas that look no better for being framed as contrary to Democratic goals. Prioritizing that approach over the potential irrevocable cost of innocent lives is tempting fate unnecessarily.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Bernie's language has been measured and policy-focused.
I trust that we will resolve our differences by the end of the convention.
There is no reason to be afraid of vigorous debate within the party as move toward the convention.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)to indulge in "a little organizational conflict" is not fear of the debate but of the potential outcome of spending valuable political capital on an intraparty squabble where the candidates largely agree. An excellent way for the conversation to be 'measured and policy focused' would be to take the "will not endorse/still in the race" narrative off the bargaining table. It is precisely because those issues are central to his position that a challenge to HRC's candidacy remains in play and the party continues to be divided for reasons that have nothing to do with furthering policy and everything to do with his viability as a candidate/challenger.
John Poet
(2,510 posts)Posts like this PROVE that some Hillary supporters care more about shoving Bernie supporters noses into the shit, than they care about uniting the party and winning the election!
The "concern" is a convenient cover for trolling Bernie supporters.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)That is not acceptable. Why would you ask us to accept that? We won't.
apcalc
(4,463 posts)Sander's can do what he wants. I just don't care. My goal is stopping Trump.
calimary
(81,209 posts)Seems to me it's turning into textbook poor sportsmanship at this point.
Bernie doesn't seem to realize how unfair he's being to his own legacy. He's squandering whatever legacy he worked to build, over several decades. Kinda like Ralph Nader did.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)It bolsters her.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)is an idiot
CobaltBlue
(1,122 posts)What she wroteincluding her attacks against whites (who voted in the Democratic primaries)tells me she is a fool.
If you actually want your preferred political party to win a general election, you do not reach out to malign a group whose overall numbers tends to nationally carry for the opposition party.
Notice that Lauren Rankin said nothing of primaries voters between the ages of 1729 (in the general, they would be 1829) who voted approximately 70 percent for Bernie Sanders. (They were over 80 percent in early primaries states Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and Top 10 populous states Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvaniaand likely others not exit-polled which Bernie Sanders carried with, perhaps, at least 55 percent.)
I am not generally aware of Lauren Rankin. I looked her up via a search engine. What I saw is someone who is white. And whitesand they were not 100 percent white maleswent for Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton.
Lauren Rankin is greatly encouraging to the Bernie Sanders primaries voters who will not vote in the general election for Hillary Clinton. Rankin helps to strengthen their resolve.
eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)in the race, the best possible way to uncover the truth about him for all to see. If Sanders would have conceded back when a reasonable politician would have done so, he would have ridden off into the sunset as a progressive hero. Now only time will tell...
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...get people to vote for Clinton. He needs to get public policies his supporters want to present to them.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)...for the next 4 years and every thing that goes with that.
What is that priority? The REVOLUTION must continue!!!!
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 6, 2016, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)
It wouldn't make any difference if he suspended his campaign before the convention. Nothing would be changed.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 6, 2016, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)
It was a missed opportunity to display party unity. Polls show that a very large majority of Sanders supporters, including almost all of the young people, have already made the switch to Clinton. Some of the rest will sooner or later make the switch, especially if they live in swing states, and others won't vote are will vote third party. However, I really don't believe that anything that Sanders does going forward short of running as an independent or a third party candidate is going to affect the decisions of those remaining on the sidelines.
Clearly his reason for not endorsing is that he is much more focused on continuing the revolution he believes he has started rather than insuring that Democrats win the White House.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We all know he is telling the the truth when he promises not to do that.
And it's not as though he has to choose between continuing the revolution and electing Democrats.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I was simply saying it would take something of that magnitude to make any difference of how his followers have not already switched to Clinton might vote. Sanders has said time and again that he will not enter the race as an independent or a 3rd party candidate and I take him at his word.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)pandorah34
(3 posts)You folks are determined to push Bernie's supporters away from voting for Hillary.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)We think what we post here is somehow important, but in the final analysis it is much to do about nothing.
pandorah34
(3 posts)How many folks do you imagine read these boards daily? How many of these folks do you think pass along all the derogatory junk that is said on these boards about Bernie and his supporters. Too many folks here push possible Hillary supporters away with their rhetoric and that is a fact.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Let's be charitable and say there were 3,000 Bernie supporters accessing DU.
Subtract from that number that those are now supporting Hillary.
Also subtract from who still dislike Hillary but will ultimatly hold their nose and vote for her in the end regardless of what is said.l
Also subtract from that number the ones who were never going to vote for Hillary regardless of what is said.
What you have left is a small number of DU users who might have voted for Hillary but are turned off by Hillary supporters and will ultimately not vote or will vote third part out of spite. Now understand that they are scattered over 50 states and some foreign countries.
Conclusion, the probability that those remaining people will showroom affect the results of the election are infinitesimally small, no small it can be considered for all practical purposes not existent.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)I've seen so many Bernie supporters on this site say they would never vote for Trump and I took them at their word. Now, I see a number of those same people over at that Jack Free Radicals site (which is, incredulously, allowed to be posted here constantly even though it borders on the violent) talking about they're going to vote for Trump as the "lesser of two evils." One person, who is also here, said she would crawl through glass to vote for Trump if Hillary is the nominee. Yet, they come over here and lie about it or, even if they themselves would never vote for Trump, act like nobody else on the left is saying they will.
Cha
(297,136 posts)Haveadream
(1,630 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's enough for now that he has pledged to vote for her.
We all know she is going to be nominated.
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)ram2008
(1,238 posts)The entire article is unnecessary whiny hyperbole.
Sanders is still in the race to shape the Democratic party platform.
He will give his support to Hillary after the platform is shaped right before the convention (after the VP pick) or right after. Benefits being, we get a more progressive party and Hillarys feet are held to the fire.
Everyone holds hands after convention with a new progressive party platform.
Hillary goes on to win the general election against Trump.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)and continuing to ignore their issues and Trump's threats to make them worse is part the reason Sanders lost the votes of those demographics in a landslide.
ram2008
(1,238 posts)... And this is whiny non sense.
This author doesn't speak for all minorities.
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)as demonstrated by the votes. Many people have made the same points repeatedly. If for no other reason than political expediency and garnering the support of additional demographics and voters, it would be wise for the issues of minorities, women, immigrants and especially, the threat Trump poses, to be more of a priority.
ram2008
(1,238 posts)Which is why Bernie fighting to get $15 dollar minimum wage and free public college into the Democratic platform (issues that disproportionately effect minorities) is a positive thing. Had he dropped out and gave up his leverage, those may not have been included in the platform.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And he'd be doing the exact same things if the apparent nominee was a man.
Response to Haveadream (Original post)
Post removed
Hekate
(90,642 posts)LuvLoogie
(6,991 posts)whirlygigspin
(3,803 posts)like a broken record around here
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)....as this well thought out post. Are you capable of that?
Vinca
(50,261 posts)This forum should only be about Clinton and Trump.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)So much worse than before the civility was supposedly restored.