Kaine lost the night but won the morning

[bigtree]

ThinkProgress ‏@thinkprogress 26m26 minutes ago
Kaine lost the night but won the morning http://thkpr.gs/aca40f58d178

____Pence appeared the more reasonable of the two. At times, he was almost a cartoon character of a reasonable person, but it was a much slicker presentation that, on the surface, seemed more competent and confident.

So it’s not surprising that, when the debate ended, a narrow majority of viewers thought that Pence won:

But as the sun rose, a different narrative of the debate emerged...

Last night, Kaine conducted a deposition. In a deposition, a lawyer questions a witness outside of the courtroom, but everything is recorded and can be used later on. These aren’t flashy or scripted affairs. A deposition can be repetitive and boring. But over many hours, a skilled lawyer can get what he wants out of a witness.

What Kaine wanted to accomplish last night was to force Pence to react to some of Trump’s most outrageous statements. This was important both to remind people that Trump said those things and to place Pence in the uncomfortable position of having to react...


read more: https://thinkprogress.org/kaine-lost-the-night-but-won-the-morning-aca40f58d178#.b2v8t8yic

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. Whether or not tRump's Mike was defective, Donald J tRump lost the VP debate. . . . nt

[underpants]

2. Yep. I posted earlier that Tim was the set man for Hillary Sunday night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512470201

[Doctor Jack]

3. Nate Silver predicted this would happen

He said his calm demeanor would cause some to say that he won last night but as soon as people started analyzing the debate, the fact checkers would make things ugly for him.

[Peacetrain]

4. Have to be honest with you bigtree.. I thought he won last night

I know he was not the most elegant debater.. but he just kept pushing at Pence and Pence just kept lying..

[bigtree]

7. I'm going to accept that many here thought differently

...but I'm in total agreement with you.

I don't think there's even any room in my wheelhouse for any agreement with or any acceptance of any republican politician. So, there's that....

[radius777]

22. Agree, and I'm not just being a partisan

even talked to people I would consider apolitical or only mildly political.

Some thought he was too hyper and interrupted too much, but almost all thought he won, because the charges against Trump that he made were very tough/provocative, and yet Pence was unable or unwilling to defend them, and simply chose to lie or shrug his shoulders.

Remember, even non-political people know many of the things Trump has said (about women, immigrants, POW's, etc), and yet Pence sat their and outright denied these things.

Kaine, in effect, was the angry and determined voice of those who are tired of Trump's bullshit.

Kaine also presented the contrast between the Democratic vison and the Trump/GOP vision in a hard-hitting way that (imo) hasn't been done this election season. He stood strong for civil rights, women's rights, economic justice, the constitution, separation of church and state, roe vs wade, etc.

[Madam45for2923]

5. Awesome! Sometimes the 1st impression gives away to the 2nd impression!

[WiffenPoof]

6. I Completely Agree

Gosh, BigTree, I'm glad you posted this. I thought it was just me.

It actually started last night. Once the media started presenting the debate in an "edited" form, Tim made a lot more sense and Pence was exposed for not supporting Trump.

-p

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. Three critical points from this debate

1) GOPers squeal like a pig when a "Democrat Party" person dares to stand up, act strong, and not take the bull that so many of them dish out routinely. For years, they have brow-beaten dems in and out of office, and did so in the most irritating, unfair, and obnoxious ways. To have someone stand up and give them a taste of "NO, WE WON'T TAKE IT ANY MORE" - from a vice presidential candidate, no less, must be such a shock that I'll bet their cardiologists are extremely busy for the next few weeks.


2) Kaine ain't no wallflower or pushover. I don't care if he seemed rude. He was not willing to let Pence get away with such lies, deliberate deceit, and a seemingly endless stream of bullshit that the GOP spews.

3) Pence lies and supports hideous positions just as calmly and stoically as when he prevents innocents from being released from prison, when he stops needle exchanges causing HIV and other injection-based infections to skyrocket, or when his policies takes the knees out from people of poverty, need, and color.

Great job, Mr. Kaine. Not only did you create a new image for the Ds of this world, (We don't cave in like before), you managed to make the story about Pence' many lies, and his seeming refusal to accept Teh Donald for what and who he really is.

[susanna]

9. I said #1 to my husband last night while watching.

"They aren't used to Democrats not playing nice. That's gonna leave a mark."

Excellent assessment on all counts, CA.

[Mamajami]

11. Especially, "Kaine ain't no wallflower or pushover."

[uponit7771]

15. Number 3 is important for 2020 and number 1 is important for the M$M to ignore

[Cha]

20. Yes, excellent.. and when he defended anti-LGBT discrimination.

Pence’s penchant for dodging questions isn’t poise. It’s how he defended anti-LGBT discrimination.

Why give him debate credit for the same tactic he always uses to avoid accountability for bigotry?

snip//

If LGBT issues had come up even once, commentators might have remembered that what they were seeing was not style, but a tactic Pence has used before — he hears the challenging questions but doesn’t acknowledge that they’re there. Throughout the vice presidential debate, as Kaine called out Donald Trump’s offensive comments and bizarre positions, Pence would smirk and shake his head — in clear recognition of what had been said — and then proceed as if he was participating in an entirely different conversation, avoiding any accountability for the valid points made. That’s exactly how he has tried to dodge accusations that he supports discrimination against LGBT people.

Last year, Pence signed Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) into law. Though it was called RFRA, Indiana’s law was far more broad than laws of the same name in other states. Indiana’s differed in a way that seemed clearly designed to allow businesses and individuals to use their religious beliefs to legally justify refusing service to LGBT people. Though Pence eventually caved and approved a change to the law that clarified it could not be cited to defend discrimination, he spent a few weeks denying that discrimination was even relevant to the conversation.

More to the story~
https://thinkprogress.org/pence-vb-debate-lgbt-style-feba3105ea85#.6i6z4yg8f

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. I'm from ill in noise

And many of us look across the border, and shake our heads. All because of Pence.

[Blue Idaho]

10. Debates are usually won or lost in the week after coverage.

Unless you have a deranged lunatic on stage like Trump - debates are usually won or lost in the week after coverage. Once the fact checking kicks in and the afterglow of the event fades into the distance - a lasting takeaway determines who one.

Pence lied and lied and lied while attempting to filibuster the event and ignore the moderator. In the end Kane - forced Pence to deal with Trump's many flaws, failures, and fallacies. We will see a week of tapes all showing Pence denying and Trump confirming everything Kane said at the debate.

Trump/Pence lost ground last night both for 2016 and for Pence 2020.

[summerschild]

12. I watched the group at MSNBC cover the debate and

deliver their analysis.

They all agreed Pence won the debate.

This morning I watched Morning Joe and they all thought Pence won. They tried to differentiate the "win" by saying it was based on his "style".

Now, the panel on both shows (supposedly a mixture of liberals and conservatives, all seemed to agree that Pence had not answered a lot of the questions truthfully, but apparently that didn't reduce his "style" quotient. The more I heard, the angrier I got.

Is this what we've come down to? No need to tell the truth - no consequences for lying.

I've got a belly full of pundits saying these republicans "deflect" when they don't want to answer a question. Where I grew up, it's called lying.

[PunksMom]

19. EXACTLY!

I can't believe people have reduced themselves to style instead of context!

[ffr]

13. Aggressor Kaine accomplished campaign's goal - Can Pence defend Donald

Journalists Are Calling Out Mike Pence For Lying About Things Donald Trump Has Said
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512471050

[Cha]

21. I like your graphic, ffr.

[beachbumbob]

14. Today's news discussions is harsh on trump and pence...we take a

Debate lost any day when it results in digging the hole deeper on those 2 fools

[world wide wally]

16. However!… I was disappointed in one thing that Kaine didn't say.

I think every Republican since Reagan has said "There you go again".

Kaine was in the perfect position to carve a Democratic phrase in stone if he just would have waited for Pence to finish instead of interjecting and said, "What a bunch of malarky"

[blue cat]

17. Yes indeed

Kaine showed off his lawyer skills.

[TomCADem]

18. Would You Trade Pence's Performane for Kaines's?

If Kaine had brazenly lied about what Hillary said, contradicted Hillary's stated policies, and refused to defend him such that the biggest take away was Kaine in 2020, we would be screaming about his betrayal.

[ffr]

25. I couldn't imagine such a thing, but that's an interesting tact.

Poor Pence. They're sinking even deeper in the polls. Maybe 2020 will give us another opportunity to turn even more states blue. That's if he's still in politics in 2020.

[DemonGoddess]

24. This is just one of many things

that should tell you what you need to know about Pence
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209551187003752&set=gm.1774904956101123&type=3&theater

[BlueStreak]

26. Kaine only lost to the punditocracy

And they always focus on style over substance. I did not watch the first 40 minutes, and I guess that was a bit wild. But I saw most of the last hour and it looks like a case where Pence was calmly denying everything in the real world while Kaine was able to put a lot of issues on the table. On style, Pence was filibustering. He was allowed about 30% more time than Kaine during the time I saw it.

I didn't particularly like Kaine's style / game plan, but it got the job done.

And here's the reality. Trump is an ignorant asshole. That's who he is. He doesn't know anything. He won't study. He cannot be polite. He cannot change who he is in a week, even if he wanted to -- and he doesn't want to because he thinks he scored big time on the last debate. Hillary can mostly ignore Trump this time out.

I expect Trump will just keep coming with the email thing. Clinton's response if probably the best: acknowledge the concern and quickly move on. However, I do note that Colin Powell actively used a private email while in the same position. And for that matter, there used to be reports that Obama had several smart phones -- including a Blackberry, yet nobody seems to be bother by any of that!?

The difference in Clinton's case is that instead of using a highly hackable gmail, yahoo, or Blackberry account, she took the precaution of installing her own server. Done properly, this can be far more secure than a gmail account. This point seems completely lost on the media.

[Gothmog]

27. Pence lied about Trump and threw trump under the bus