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Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:41 PM

Bernie (or Bernie's ideas) 2020!

Hillary lost the 2016 electoral vote because she ignored the very real concerns of the American working class.

Trump flooded my rust-belt state with ads about how he would re-open closed factories. Hillary ran ads about how she cared about children. Care to guess which ad campaign was more effective? Hint: Trump won my state.

Bernie understood what worried the average American factory worker. So did Trump. But Hillary did not. And so she lost.




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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply Bernie (or Bernie's ideas) 2020! (Original post)
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 OP
emulatorloo Nov 2016 #1
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #3
emulatorloo Nov 2016 #6
DemonGoddess Nov 2016 #28
JHan Nov 2016 #2
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #8
JHan Nov 2016 #9
JI7 Nov 2016 #26
JHan Nov 2016 #27
JHan Nov 2016 #11
WhiteTara Nov 2016 #4
think Nov 2016 #5
JHan Nov 2016 #12
think Nov 2016 #14
JHan Nov 2016 #18
Kathy M Nov 2016 #30
bravenak Nov 2016 #7
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #13
JHan Nov 2016 #17
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #20
JHan Nov 2016 #23
bravenak Nov 2016 #21
bravenak Nov 2016 #19
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #22
bravenak Nov 2016 #24
Kathy M Nov 2016 #31
sheshe2 Nov 2016 #32
bravenak Nov 2016 #35
liquid diamond Nov 2016 #10
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #25
Post removed Nov 2016 #15
Shemp Howard Nov 2016 #16
DemonGoddess Nov 2016 #29
sheshe2 Nov 2016 #33
DemonGoddess Nov 2016 #37
JI7 Nov 2016 #34
LexVegas Nov 2016 #36

Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:45 PM

1. Hillary ignored nothing. She talked economy, jobs, income inequality

Education, training, etc etc. she has solid policies and ways to achieve them.

She and Bernie have always been close policywise.

My guess is you were never able to see a full speech from HRC.

That's perfectly understable that you weren't able to, as news didn't bother showing her speeches.

They showed lots of Trump speeches where he lied to the working class though.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:59 PM

3. I'm talking about her ads, not her speeches.

The average voter does not log on to an Internet site to carefully go over a candidate's speech. The average voter gets most of his/her information from TV and radio ads. That's sad, but it's true.

Hillary's ads in my rust-belt state were way off-base. She talked about helping children. But my friends and neighbors were much more concerned about their jobs. Would their factories stay open, or would they close?

Trump got that. And so did Bernie. But Hillary missed it. Was she tone-deaf, or did she just get bad advice? No matter. If this lesson is not learned, we will see a succession of Trumps for years to come.


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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:06 PM

6. I will refer you to JHan's post below.

Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying about ads.

However I am tiring a little of those making false claims that HRC did not address jobs and the economy and that her campaign was content free.

I am also tiring of those making claims that Bernie and Hillary are extremely different on core values and policies. That is just not at all true.

I don't think you are doing that but it is something I am sensitive to right now.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 12:14 AM

28. I saw PLENTY of ads running

about jobs and the economy locally. Much more than what many here are admitting to having been run at all.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:50 PM

2. Her needing to push her jobs policies more does not mean ..

she "ignored" the working class.

We are talking a difference of 60,000 votes across all these states.

she had the most sensible platform, covering apprenticeship programs, a phase out period for fossil fuels which would keep jobs, health care..

Should she have had a more condensed simple message that hammered home her jobs programme? Yes.

Should she have campaigned more in the midwestern states? Yes. Did hubris cost her votes? Yes... MAYBE. Her rival was even more arrogant.

But none of this means her platform ignored anyone, in fact her policies were incredibly comprehensive and tried to satisfy everyone everywhere (my only critique of it) but she was the only one this year ( between Sanders and Trump) who understood the economy.

And this is the millionth time I've wondered if I followed the same election cycle as some other folks.

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Response to JHan (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:17 PM

8. Her "platform" does not matter!

The average voter does not compare platforms, and then vote accordingly. The average voter watches TV ads, listens to radio ads, talks to friends, and then votes accordingly.

Hillary's ads were terrible. They did nothing to address the concerns of the working class. But Trump's ads, and Bernie's ads, did. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:19 PM

9. So she should have lied and voters have no responsibility to inform themselves then?

And I did acknowledge her errors in my post..

But we're back to this - she should have just lied all year then..about bringing jobs back, attacking the billionaire class all the other BS?

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Response to JHan (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 12:01 AM

26. if she lied she would have been called out on it

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Response to JI7 (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 12:08 AM

27. Oh right, I forgot the double standard.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:21 PM

11. How come I heard and understood ...?

at what point do we hold ourselves accountable for the BS choices we make at the ballot box-

why don't we ask ourselves why this wasn't a policy driven election cycle? why weren't the populist assumptions and policy positions of any of the candidates dissected and discussed and challenged? They weren't - and the debates were a joke.

why was this year such a pony and trick show?

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:02 PM

4. Now come back to reality.

The next presidency has not occurred and we need to work with one another to block the republican trifecta and you jumping ahead to 2020 is a little (?) premature.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:04 PM

5. Chuck Schumer seems to think it's a good idea to embrace many of Bernie's issues and ideas:

 

Chuck Schumer Is All In On Bernie Sanders’ Democratic Party

By Michael McAuliff - 11/19/2016 12:10 pm ET | Updated Nov 20, 2016

The Vermont senator lost to Hillary Clinton, but the new Senate minority leader thinks his message is a winner.

~Snip~

When you lose an election the way we did, you don’t flinch, you don’t look away. You look it in the eye and say ‘What did we do wrong?’” said Schumer, who also had a significant role in Democrats’ 2016 calculations. “To me, overwhelmingly, we did not have a strong economic message. What we need is a sharper, bolder, stronger, more progressive economic message.”

Schumer explained that includes staples from the Sanders and Warren wing of the party ― debt-free college, at least some of the free college that was so mocked by the Clinton campaign, a higher minimum wage, a “bolder” stance on trade, a tougher stance on the “rigged” system of lobbyists and special interests, and major investments in infrastructure, among other ideas.

“Bernie convinced me of this. Bernie asked me to do it, to organize it,” Schumer said, adding that he agrees with Sanders’ idea that the DNC needs to become more of an activist and organizing operation.

“So when we’re pushing for a strong college bill on the floor, there are hundreds of thousands of people on campuses across the country emailing, and tweeting and calling and protesting. And when we do minimum wage, there should be minimum wage workers all over the country pushing for that,” Schumer said. “That’s what Bernie wants to do with the DNC, and I completely agree.”...

Read more:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chuck-schumer-is-all-in-on-bernie-sanders-democratic-party_us_58307a38e4b030997bbfc3cc

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Response to think (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:25 PM

12. What else is Chuck going to say?

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Response to JHan (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:28 PM

14. What do you mean by that?

 

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Response to think (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:39 PM

18. Exactly that.. what else is he going to say?

"NO Bernie your ideas are not plausible" - is not something chuck can say right now.

The legislative politics that will be involved in getting these bills passed will be interesting.

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Response to think (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 01:22 AM

30. Thanks for posting

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:13 PM

7. Hell, no.

 

Time to move forward. Bernie was stuck in the past back in the 80 and is still trying to bring back the old days and the old policy that was desired when he was young.

Why the hell should we lie about reopening factories that no company want to open here and pay decent wages for? Trump lie and Hillary told the truth. If people were fooled by a many times bankrupt con artist who stiffs workers when he says he will bring back jobs that no company will actually bring back then they will learn soon.

Those jobs are gone.
They have been automated.
Businesses are not going to pay a hundred people to do what ten people can do just to please Trump.
Fewer nations are wanting to use coal fired power plants. We cannot FORCE them to keep burning coal just because there are people who want good wages to mine the shit. We cannot force the market to raise the price of coal to give them better pay and force the businesses to hire more miners to mine a products that is less desirable by the day.

These people want regulations to force their jobs back but also want low taxes for the owners who actually ship the manufacturing overseas.

And we Americans are not willing to pay the prices to affford us to be able to do all our manufacturing. We like cheap products. We like high wages. We want low taxes. We want the manufacturing jobs here.

Well fuck. We want so much shit we aint never going to get, I see why they mad that democrats told the truth.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:25 PM

13. Hell, yes.

You MAKE the company open here in the US, and you MAKE it pay decent wages. It can be done, with a carrot-and-stick approach. Like Bernie, and (unfortunately) like Trump, I refuse to let the working middle class wither away without a fight.

The United States cannot survive if it becomes a nation with just a wealthy elite and a massive, poor lower-class. Good factory jobs are a must, and we progressives cannot abandon that goal.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:37 PM

17. And his ideas will make it worse because he has misdiagnosed the problem:

His ideas will also hurt small businesses.
His ideas will see business flight
His ideas will result in us having to pay more for food. Higher tariffs and the ensuing effects will affect our access to markets.

I could go on and on. And I do not say these things because I think Bernie is a bad person - he is not a bad person, his ideas are awful and misguided. He wants us to be more like Sweden and he doesn't even understand how Sweden became Sweden.

If you want to help people you do your best to understand the circumstances they find themselves in and correctly diagnose it - if you don't correctly diagnose the problem, you create havoc because on top of not providing the right solution you create NEW problems.

Bernie and Trump and to a lesser extent Clinton, are all baby boomers who cling to the idea of Nostalgia, all the "we can bring back those old time days where everything was simpler" talk is NOT HELPFUL. Those days are not coming back. America is not in the position she was after world war 2. We need leadership that understands the pace of our new economy, understands how to prepare us for the technological revolution we're ill prepared for and how to keep us globally competitive, and how best to invest in our people to prepare them for these changes.

We need Politicians who TELL THE TRUTH not offer FALSE HOPE.

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Response to JHan (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:42 PM

20. We disagree...

...but your post was both thoughtful and respectful. Thanks for the reply.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:46 PM

23. No probs.

I hope the dems are having similar discussions among themselves - one can only hope

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Response to JHan (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:44 PM

21. Thank you for calling out nostalgia

 

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:40 PM

19. No. We cannot MAKE A COMPANY OPEN A FACTORY HERE

 

We are a free nation, not a fucking communist state or somesuch where government controls industry and forces companies to open factories that makes buggies and whips even though nobody wants a fucking buggy or whip.

It sound like you want communism, is that the case? Because you just stressed me the fuck out and it is not fair of you. Republicans think that liberals want to force business to do things like that.

Yes. Paying decent wages should be the damn law, and I support higher wages, even a 20 dollar minimum if we can get it. But what? You think we should force coal companies to open up more mines even though demand is not increasing? Open up factories to produce goods that we wont buy because Walmart sells the same crap for ten bucks that would cost 60 bucks if we made it here and actually paid real wages to the workers? Or should we stop imports and close up our state, and cause the dollar to become worthless? Our dollar has value because we have these trade deals and other nations use our currency. Why would they use it if we placed harsh restrictions ongood coming from them to us? They wouldnt. Then our money means nothing. That will help the middle class!! Sigh

They ship jobs out because those workers will do the job with bad conditions, dangerous equiptment, few regulations for a buck fifty an hour while we cost them 15 bucks plus taxes, wirkers comp, fica, SS, plus we want raises and safety regs.

Sigh. The fantasy world of the right terrifies me but left wing famtasy is also quite puzzling.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:45 PM

22. I just stressed you out?

And, as you said, that is not fair of me?

Oh, my. I best not continue this dialog with you then, as I wish you only the best.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:48 PM

24. Good, thank you.

 

It was crazy to read that. Sounded like a republican plant sent here to make us look like we really do want big brother controlling everything

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 01:30 AM

31. Agree .... Thanks for posting

Policies of the last 25 years have to change . First step was Bernie running and then getting platform where it is .

Agree with goal .

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Response to bravenak (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 03:32 AM

32. We also have the internet now.

I get slammed every time I mention it.

However, brick and mortar stores are dying. Jobs are gone. That is a fact. It is one of the reasons I can't find a new job. That and my age. I have been out for 7 months now. Nowhere for me to go.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 04:13 AM

35. It's fucked up and unfrtunate but at least you are facing the reality we live in

 

It's starting to get hard to find a job at 40, pay sucks and hours are shitty. I will not lie and say retail jobs will be back. Not until we get rid of the internet, and we wont ever do that. We need new solutions. The nostalgia just makes things worse, it tricks people into believing falsehoods.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:20 PM

10. You really think

 

Hillary supporters are going to forget Bernie and his supporters' role in our loss this election? Some of you vowed to sit out this election if we do didn't nominate Bernie. We democrats won't forget that.

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:57 PM

25. You make a good point here.

Yes, some of Bernie's supporters did go the sore loser route, and they did not back HRC in the general election. But that's not the point I was trying to make here. My point is that Bernie, and Trump, spoke to the concerns of the working class, while Hillary did not.

It's something that, I think, should be considered going forward.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:34 PM

16. Does the same apply to Bernie's ideas? (nt)

.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 12:24 AM

29. You know, so many of the

things I've seen touted as "Bernie's ideas" have been Democratic platform and POLICY for decades. He's certainly not the originator of it.

As to MAKING factories open up shop, that's a pipe dream, and you KNOW it.

As to addressing working class concerns, she addressed them. She wasn't COVERED for it. The damn MSM was too busy with false equivalency to give her positive coverage of ANY kind. It was much easier for them to strongly imply that as a woman, she had no business aspiring to the land's highest office in the first place.

People mention ego and arrogance. But you know what? Every politician I've ever seen that runs for this office HAS to have a big ego and arrogance to survive the process in the first place. That INCLUDES Bernie. I get so heartily sick and tired of hearing in this rehash how "humble" and so on that he is, while I see people piling on HRC, often for no good reason at all.

But, that's okay, we all also know Hillary was held to an impossible double standard all along. When she surpassed and successfully fought off the dreck of the day, the bar was raised that much higher, for her, and her alone; while being LOWERED for her opposition.

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Response to DemonGoddess (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 03:36 AM

33. You are my hero.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 09:28 AM

37. naw

just finding my voice again

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 03:44 AM

34. she ignored the white voters who vote republican by not scapegoating a minority to blame for their

problems.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Nov 28, 2016, 07:36 AM

36. Fuck that. nt

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