2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy all the navel gazing and tortured reflection?
It is so clear to me that this election was stolen. Hillary won Michigan and Wisconsin. Probably PA and Fla as well. All of this analysis and painstaking reflection legitimizes Trump in a twisted way. You are saying that he did win and trying to advance your brillliant theories as to why. Was it the millennial vote? Sexism? Racism? The "white working class"? Voter apathy? Bernie? Not saying those weren't factors, but that is not why she "lost" because she didn't. Don't try to make sense of a it because you can't. She won okay? It's clear to me from statistical analysis and what is coming out from the recounts that this is a result of systemic election tampering, fraud and possible even hacking. Instead of focusing on why? Are main focus should be on how we are going to reclaim our democracy. If not now,then forever after. Many of you are completely focused on the wrong target. stop it!
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Orsino
(37,428 posts)Bad or "damaged" candidates don't get that many goddamned votes.
Begabig
(76 posts)Trump performed above...
MADem
(135,425 posts)Last I checked, HRC was at 2.65 million votes more than Trump.
Begabig
(76 posts)State by state...
If the President was elected by popular vote, you might have a point.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Guess Putin couldn't hack those systems.
Begabig
(76 posts)
NRQ891
(217 posts)'Clinton performed very well' must be viewed in that context
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)mattered if it was flattering to him, but not if it was flattering to others. Now we're concerned about context since it is framed as unflattering to Clinton, lol.
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)She really won!
TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)1) Some are still fighting the primaries.
2) We're Democrats. Tortured self-reflection is kind of our thing.
Joking (well, not really) aside, I agree with you in that it's somewhat pointless, particularly the vitriol-inducing part. I think a solid candidate and a similar, but refined, strategy in 2020 and we're in good shape presidentially. Congress is another matter, but that's another conversation entirely.
That being said, it probably shouldn't have been this close, and the self-reflection does serve a purpose there. We needed to make it enough of a win that it could overcome voter suppression tactics, etc. (Not that we should have to, but the SC and the GOP have made it a political reality.)
We could do without the self-flagellation, though.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 6, 2016, 11:55 AM - Edit history (1)
Why a are we okay with living with the reality that voter theft and riggingis a fact of life and we just need a bigger margin? Like battered wife syndrome. (It's my fault he hit me. I shouldnt have said anything to him about being out late). We are tying one hand behind our backs and it can only get worse. Election fraud is and should always been front and center. We need to fight this with every fiber of our being...it's not about agendas and broadening coalitions, to parafrase a brilliant politician, "it's the stealing stupid"
Raster
(20,998 posts)...AND. WE. DO. NOTHING.
We know the number one rethuglican electoral dirty trick is suppressing the votes of those persons that would most likely vote against them: women, minorities, millenials, etc.
JudyM
(29,204 posts)TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)That's why I noted that it's something we have to deal with, but shouldn't. Between Supreme Court decisions and GOP voter suppression tactics, in the end, we have to win convincingly just to win at all.
That doesn't mean it's right; it just means that it's where we find ourselves thanks to decades of GOP interference, obstruction, and local/state meddling.
Should we fight against these tactics? Of course; they should be a primary focus. That doesn't change where we are politically in regards to this election, however. The changes made in the past few years on the state and local level no doubt had an impact here.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)State legislatures, governor, judicial races, heck even dog catcher. They are the keeper of the keys so to speak.. as long as the GOP holds the rens there heaven help us.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)them and move forward with a unified voice.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)spreadsheets from the Wisconsin recount on a daily basis. So far, the recount has produced very little difference from the final tally following the election. Could change, of course.
I'm wondering if you have actual evidence of fraud, or what you are referring to when you say Hillary won Wisconsin. I can believe that she won Michigan--the results are razor-thin, and with 80,000 ballots with no choice for president there is something going on.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Suppression cat be recounted.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)and without it there would have been no Trump win. But, those would-be votes are lost forever, and are only speculative. Of the actual ballots cast, I think Trump probably did take Wisconsin.
I grew up in central Wisconsin. I still have relatives there, and I can believe that in some of those small towns, people would come out of the woodwork to vote for someone making the kind of promises he was making.
hueymahl
(2,449 posts)"Navel gazing" as you call it, is what needs to be done. It is the rational response to losing to the most bigoted, flawed, insane candidate of modern times. If you can't beat that buffoon, you really should look at yourself and what went wrong.
Trying to blame it on some conspiracy instead of taking stock of your own house is a special kind of insanity.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)I'm sure there will be posters still claiming this election was stolen 10 years from now.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Do you honestly think it's not systemic?
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)WI and NC being two of them. WI was probably winnable without the supression, NC not so much. I'm not buying the hacking and other nonsense.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Hillary won Michigan. No doubt in my mind. Her lead in Florida going in was statistically insurmountable. Polling and exit polling in Wisconsin showed she had a solid lead. But whoops...nothing to see here. Move along and think about how we will do better "next time" what coalitions will we build? How will we bring in the "white working class".Navel gazing will put us in the permanent Minority. Navel gazing is the ultimate denial that the system is not dirty as all get out. Like the PAN party in Mexico for example. For 80 years, it was structurally impossible for them to win an election because of the vote rigging by the PRI (not that I am pro PAN in anyway)..all this navel gazing is going to do is ensure that we progressives/liberals are in a permanent minority. Figuring out the perfect "strategy" to win at the ballot box will get us no where. You do understand that elections are routinely rigged the world over don't you? Next step will be to start jailing political opponents and "opposition leaders". We are on a slippery slope and navel gazing ---why oh why did we lose. Will not advance our cause one iota.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)You do realize that polling and actual voting are 2 separate things? I'm not saying there was no voter suppression or voting irregularities, but you actually have to prove those things. Just having a "gut feeling" is insufficient proof to have the outcome overturned by the courts.
If this were simply 1 state that might flip the outcome, I'd say go to the mattresses, like in 2000 only 10x harder. But trying to do this simultaneously in multiple states with significant time constraints is simply not going to work out with out hard evidence of the type of outright election fraud and vote theft you believe occurred. I'm not trying to be crush your beliefs, I'm just trying to prevent us from fighting a losing battle and spending millions of dollars and told effort that could be better spent elsewhere.
We have exposure on the Senate side of Congress in 2018. We need to ensure that we protect every seat and also claim the handful of GOP seats that might turn the Senate. That would be a great first step in clipping Trump's wings. Then work on putting forth some new, progressive faces in the 2020 POTUS primaries and recruiting candidates that can flip the House, and we can get America back on track. It's going to take a lot of hard work, not to mention money. I'd rather we stop fighting lost battles - even if you question the outcome's legitimacy - and focus on the fight ahead.
Either that or produce real evidence, not just a statistical model or a few anecdotes. Hillary lost. America, as a result, lost. But let's quit pretending we can get a do-over and go out and kick some ass. I'm done with the recriminations and blame and excuses. I'm getting to work. We all need to, time is a-wasting...
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)vote in Florida, not the polls. Though the exit polls also indicated a Clinton win. That said I'm not talking about the recounts, well aware that is going no where. What I'm saying is all of this pontificating about white working class, millenials, rust belt, etc. is silly. Fact is she won the popularly vote by 2.5M and counting. It is my belief that she lost key states due to vote rigging...but without missing a beat you are saying lets start thinking about the Senate in '18...and then the 2020 primaries true progressive yada, yada...that's all well and good I guess but unless we do something about voter integrity we'll lose those too. Do you get it now? We're never going to kick some ass unless we do something about election integrity...we have a dirty, dirty system and it is only going to get worse. We are moving toward a permanent GOP majority party because they hold the keys at the local level. That is the fight we need to focus on, not being arm chair democratic "strategists" and yes navel gazing...that and $3 will get you a medium coffee at starbuck. What we need to focus on is local elections and start to win those otherwise it is going to be a long winter indeed.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)at the local and state level. That does make it more challenging to put forth competitive House candidates with experience in elective office, so we may in the short term need to look at more "non-traditional" candidates (athletes, celebrities, ex-military, etc) who can punch the progressive agenda.
I'm not sure if Keith Ellison is the right person to head the DNC, but he can't do any worse than Debbie Wasserman-Schultz ... I think we really need someone working full-time on this, but hopefully he'll put together a great staff to move the DNC into the 21st century.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Knowing you are sure it was stolen is a bit comforting.
And after Jan 20th, there are always protests.
I guess we'll know for sure after the recounts (and apparently the way they are going, trump is further legitimized).
"Are main focus should be on how we are going to reclaim our democracy"
"Clinton 2020"?
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)we need new blood, new ideas, and more progressive candidates who don't already carry excessive negative baggage, rightly or wrongly.
I held my nose and voted for her (I'm in a big swing state), even though I'd stated multiple times I would not after the way Sen. Sanders was shafted by the party bosses installed by HRC. Don't ask me to vote for party over conscience again.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)about what we're up against with voter suppression, wide scale fraud, and other forms of rigging. If it were only a matter of strategy I would be a whole lot more hopeful because there is a fix for that...
NRQ891
(217 posts)and then got entirely blindsided by it's biggest across the board sweep in 90 years
obviously, this party is not in tune with the public, and needs to fix that to ensure it's own survival
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Sanders supporters and other outsiders to vote against Clinton as a protest vote. The same type thing happened to Gore. Both were very close elections, but in different ways. The margin of error in crucial states show that Stein/Sanders protest votes swung the election. Let's not forget to take into consideration actual election results and the reasons for them instead of demonizing Democrats because they aren't pure enough and need fixing.
NRQ891
(217 posts)that alone cost him the election
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)were the same. That is by far the biggest takeaway from that election and the most resoundingly morally and intellectually dishonest statement imaginable. Sanders' charges of widespread corruption echo Naders, and both men are responsible for ushering in the GOP predators who have shaped our world today with their wars and failed economic policies.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Not campaigning in the right places. More than enough votes to win, but not distributed in the right places. Taking the "blue firewall" for granted. Underestimating Trump CONSTANTLY. You have to have more than "Look how terrible he is" to appeal to people.
The post-mortem is important because we have got to figure out what to do differently next time. Democrats never seem to learn from their mistakes. Running to the right or middle instead of left. Trying the "Third Way" bullshit to appeal to disaffected Republicans instead of non-voters or traditional Democratic voters (unions, for example).
NRQ891
(217 posts)'traditional Democratic voters'
which is a very diplomatic way of saying 'throwing your loyal base under the bus for any kind of gain elsewhere, then calling them 'racists' if they ever let you down in a close race'
