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Fri Dec 9, 2016, 12:27 AM

Hillary Haters Face Reality Voting For tRump



**Thanks For Teaching Us A Lesson**

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Reply Hillary Haters Face Reality Voting For tRump (Original post)
Grassy Knoll Dec 2016 OP
doc03 Dec 2016 #1
JCanete Dec 2016 #2
woolldog Dec 2016 #8
JCanete Dec 2016 #21
doc03 Dec 2016 #12
JCanete Dec 2016 #23
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #32
JCanete Dec 2016 #33
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #35
JCanete Dec 2016 #36
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #37
forjusticethunders Dec 2016 #40
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #14
Post removed Dec 2016 #15
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #17
killbotfactory Dec 2016 #18
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #19
killbotfactory Dec 2016 #22
CajunBlazer Dec 2016 #30
SidDithers Dec 2016 #24
Tarheel_Dem Dec 2016 #34
JCanete Dec 2016 #25
bettyellen Dec 2016 #26
JCanete Dec 2016 #27
bettyellen Dec 2016 #28
JCanete Dec 2016 #29
Seasider Dec 2016 #38
JCanete Dec 2016 #39
JCanete Dec 2016 #3
still_one Dec 2016 #4
JCanete Dec 2016 #5
Justice Dec 2016 #7
Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #9
mtnsnake Dec 2016 #13
StevieM Dec 2016 #31
oasis Dec 2016 #6
BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #10
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #11
duffyduff Dec 2016 #16
SidDithers Dec 2016 #20
yardwork Dec 2016 #41

Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 12:58 AM

1. A friend of mine's daughter is one of those Bernie millennials, she voted for Johnson

she is sorry for it now.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:05 AM

2. She never voted for Bernie for the right reasons, if somehow she was able to trade-up for Johnson.

 


They aren't even from the same planet. Given that, you can't blame the Sanders campaign for her disaffection, you can only credit it with energizing her, if only temporarily, to a campaign with a social and economic justice message.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:55 AM

8. It was "cool" to vote for Johnson

 

among the millennial crowd. It was t about issues but signaling to others that you're "anti establishment"

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Response to woolldog (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 01:54 PM

21. well then they didn't know what anti-establishment was. nt

 

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Response to JCanete (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:04 AM

12. Yes but the reason she never voted for Hillary was some of the retoric

Bernie's campaign used during the campaign against Hillary.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:12 PM

23. which applies double or more so to the republican party and most pro-corporate politicians.

 

That wasn't lost on me from his campaign. The case he was making was that Clinton was too damn cozy to change things, and that her platform was a reflection of that. He had nothing good to say about the GOP, and aside from one moment of frustration where he lost his perspective a bit after Hillary and her team attacked Sanders for not being qualified for the role, and for being about unicorns, that he said, "You say I'm not qualified? I say you're not qualified," he generally promoted a message that everybody on the Democratic stage was 100 times better than the alternatives.

So we have a case of a young woman who apparently pays no attention to politics on a regular basis, who might have been swayed by any damn politician, but was first energized by Sanders. Do you have a reason to believe that had there been no Sanders, she would have been a guaranteed vote for Clinton? Its not like Sanders was giving people a message that they don't already believe. That's why it spread like wildfire among the youth. This is post occupy wall-street. Thankfully, Johnson isn't where most of those votes went, which gives me more hope for the next generation of voters, who are more than tangentially engaged.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 05:01 PM

32. There are no guarantees for 'never happened" scenarios

However, had Sanders not run against Clinton and instead joined her team, and had used his potential appeal with young people to gather them into the fold for Hillary instead of giving them reasons to hate her, I believe that Hillary might well have won. Surely some of his eventual supporters would not have distributed so much filth about Hillary on social media. Surely with all of he college students and recent graduates in the states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, and given the fact that millennial voting in those states was down and that many young people voted for 3rd party candidates, had Sanders not run it would have made a difference.

It is no accident that the Republicans ultimately came together and voted for one of the worst candidates in history of this country better than traditional democratics came home to vote for Hillary. Do I hold Sanders and his worst supporters at least somewhat responsible for that - damn right I do.

But Sanders was selfish - he insisted in on primarying Hillary, just like he wanted someone to primary Obama, to push Hillary to the left. And most of all he wanted to push his sacred REVOLUTION. Well, I hope he enjoys Trump as much as the rest of us will.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 05:29 PM

33. Your version of selfish is not mine. Being a part of the democratic process by running for election

 

is selfish apparently, unless you are the anointed one. Either of us can use that language to describe the other candidate's motivations or the party's. I don't think it is helpful for either of us to actually do so, but carry on as you choose.

It is also a hell of a double standard that you hold when it comes to distributing filth about the other candidate. There was a lot of nonsense propagated by Clinton herself and the DNC about Sanders. Why do you give that a pass?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:05 PM

35. Oh, I forgot. Only ultra progressives are never selfish

They are pure as the driven snow.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:26 PM

36. I'm sorry, what just happened there? You got that from my post in which I suggested that

 

neither of us start ascribing motivations? Somehow what you read was "none of us are selfish, you guys are." I disagree specifically that Sanders was motivated by selfishness, and double down on the declaration that neither of us can actually look into the minds of these candidates. Its perfectly reasonable to have a read on those intentions. It is not in the spirit of us coming together to assert them so caustically on these boards, but maybe you don't give a shit?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:42 PM

37. Perhaps, I misread your intentions and you misread mine

When I asserted that Sanders was selfish, I didn't mean that he ran against Hillary for to somehow benefit himself. I don't believe that for a minute. What I meant was that he, like the "true believer' he is, he put the cause, the REVOLUTION, above the needs of the people the cause is supposed to serve.

A true believers get so wrapped up in their causes that they often forget why they took up the cause to start with. If, starting out, Bernie would have known that his candidacy might help in any way to result in a Trump Presidency, would he have still run? If the answer to that question is "yes", then he is indeed selfish.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 02:09 PM

40. tbh if he hadn't run I think that would have depressed turnout as well

 

It would have fed the bullshit 'ITS HER TURN" narrative if the primary is over before the 2016 calendar year. Or worse, it would have promoted guys like Jim Webb.

I see what you're saying though.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:52 AM

14. Wasn't it Bernie that started the "corrupt corporate serving Hillary" theme?

Wasn't it Sanders who went around to college campuses stoking the hopes of young people with government give aways that he could have never provided. Wasn't it Sanders supporters who first chanted "lock her up!" Wasn't Sanders supporters on DU who accused Hilary of everything in the book? Wasn't it Sander's supporters who stalked Hillary supporters here on DU and voted to remove their posts if they said anything untoward about Saint Bernie.

Surely, you shouldn't have any trouble figuring out why young voters might have had trouble voting for Hillary after swallowing Sanders' depiction of "Evil Hillary" hook, line and sinker. Surely you can see why in the minds of unsophisticated young people who were pissed off that St. Bernie didn't win the nomination, anyone including Johnson, would be better than Hillary.

What we will never know is how many young people, disappointed by Sanders' loss, no longer excited about the election, and convinced by Sander's rhetoric that Trump and Hillary were "equally poor choices", simply didn't bother to vote. The statistic coming from the election indicate that many young people fit that description.

What I won't forgive Bernie Sanders for is prioritizing his REVOLUTION over the needs of the Democratic Party and the welfare of the the American Party.
Just think if Sanders had not run and would have not spent all of that time trying to tear down the future Democratic nominee.

Just remember that even if Sanders believes that he was partially responsible for Hillary's loss (and I am sure he has rationalize that he was not), he still would be happy that he ran because he now believes that his REVOLUTION has a chance. Nothing is more important to Bernie than his REVOLUTION.

In my mind his REVOLUTION be damned.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #14)


Response to Post removed (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 12:14 PM

17. You, my friend, are a perfect example of what I was talking about in my post above

Thanks for reminding everyone of Bernie's message by repeating it. You are not only part of, but a shining example of the problem.

This is example the type of Bernie's bullshit that created a false equivalency between Hillary and Trump in the eyes of so many. So what if Hillary and Bill were paid good money for giving speeches. If someone offered me $250,000 for a single speech so they could better understand my view of the world, I would be asking when and where. And I strongly suspect you would be doing the same. We have seen excerpts of Hillary famous speech to Goldman Sachs that Bernie railed against and I saw nothing to get excited about.

Do you see Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump as equally corrupt? If so you are one of the Bernie supporters who bought into his message hook, line and sinker and you are one of the ones we should blame for Trump's victory.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 12:57 PM

18. HER OWN STAFF were raising the alarm about the speeches

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/podesta-emails-show-excerpts-of-clinton-speeches-to-goldman/

It looks bad when you get paid millions of dollars by wall street, when people are still struggling to get by because of the economic crisis they engineered.

The Clinton plan was to ignore these issues, and point to Trump as such a unique horrorshow that people would overlook them and vote against Trump.

And now here we are.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 01:50 PM

19. Her staff were paid to look for weak point so that they can be mitigated

Every campaign does opposition research on their candidate so they will know what they will have to defend. The only reason we know about Clinton's campaign research (and not those of every other candidates) is because the Russian hacked into the Clinton campaign emails. (Thanks for bringing that up.) It would have been interesting to see what Sanders campaign believed to be Bernie's weak points were. Hell, I know what the Trump campaign would have thrown at Sanders had he won the nomination, at least the true stuff. No telling what lies Trump would have told about ole Bernie - but I can assure you it wouldn't have been plenty.

But don't think I haven't notice that you have changed the subject and thus avoided my main point - it is people like you that supported the false narrative of "equivalency" between Hillary and Trump with your attacks. You should be ashamed of yourself and in the future when you wonder why you and the poor people you have sworn to defend have to suffer through the Trump Presidency, take a real good look in you mirror.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 01:59 PM

22. I supported Bernie and fell in line behind Clinton when he lost.

There was no equivalency between Trump and Clinton. I agree. But I live in a solid blue state and no one I know was excited about Clinton. Bernie didn't create her negatives, and ran one of the most genteel primary fights I've ever witnessed. He pointed out issues he had with her, and those issues were shared by MANY MANY people BEFORE Bernie entered the race. The reason he ran in the primary is so that he wouldn't be a spoiler in the general election.

If the reason Clinton lost is because someone dared to run against her, then how great of a politician could she possibly be?

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:06 PM

30. A genteel primary fight, really?

Were you hiding under a rock the entire primary season? Yea, Bernie started out gentile and then he been to think he really had a chance to win after all. Though Hillary never really went after Bernie except on the guns issue (a lot of ammunition remained unfired because she didn't want to turnoff his supporters), Bernie went after Hillary with a vengeance.

Google "Bernie hammers Hillary" and see how many direct hits you get. Sanders hammered away at Hillary Clinton through out most of the primaries on her ties to big corporations and weak progressive credentials. He reminded everyone about her votes for Iraq War. And supporters like you carried Sanders' water, except you guys were much more aggressive and nasty on DU and, more importantly, on other social media like Facebook and Twitter. Sanders' supporters were far,far worse than their candidate. You might have ultimately held your nose and voted for Hillary, but you and many others like you made it virtually impossible for young voters to do the same. Hell, the general election is over and you are still attacking Hillary.

Like I said, I hold you and others like you partially responsible for the fact that Trump will occupy the oval office. However, unlike many of us here you will get exactly what you deserve over the next four years.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:16 PM

24. Nailed it...



Sid

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 05:30 PM

34. "Nailed it" x 2!!!!

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:37 PM

25. "corporate giveaways that he could have never provided."

 

What can be provided in your opinion? What Bernie was offering may have been political fantasy but it was not mechanical fantasy. And you know what? Everything in a deadlocked congress is political fantasy. The only way to get anything passed is to give up somebody's lunch to the people carrying the water of large corporations, whether those people be members of the GOP or our own blue dog Dems. The only way to get something good is to take something bad.

So we might as well demand the "fantasy." The fantasy is something that can actually change people's lives, not stick a bandaid on their scrapes. The fantasy is something that can actually rally the people to push on government to take back what has been pilfered from the commons. Without that kind of movement at the bottom, I don't care how easy it is for big corporations to swallow tepid, wonky legislation, because they are only going to let that shit happen if they have to, and the Democrats aren't giving them a compelling reason why they have to.

Why not hold the DNC and the establishment responsible for not working with Sanders pre-convention? Their arrogance that they could entirely bury him and his policy message by trying to paint him as a bitter self-serving laughing stock(some of which you are still peddling), cost them an earlier reconciliation. For fucks sake, the only reason Sanders ran was to effect change on the democratic platform. It would have all been for naught had the DNC gotten their way. If you believe, like I do that this is the kind of change our nation desperately needs, then that isn't self-serving, it is why we funded his campaign and why we voted for him in the primaries. He had momentum and capital and instead of respecting that, the establishment simply tried to close the doors and turn their back. If there was still rancor going into the GE that cost Clinton votes, then that blame lies squarely at the feet of the party and our candidate. Why can't you admit that? Hell, they eventually adopted much of Sanders platform in the end anyway, albeit begrudgingly, so I ask you, what did they gain for that earlier cold shoulder?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:47 PM

26. Until Comney, most polls had us winning a senate majority and big gains in congress.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:50 PM

27. You can't have this both ways. Either Sanders cost us the election, in which case I say no, the DNC

 

did, or Comey cost us the election. I'm not the one making claims that it was Sanders or the DNC. It wasn't really Comey either though. It was always the corporate media. And we keep trying to get the corporations to like us...

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Response to JCanete (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:54 PM

28. Actually it was such a squeaker that any of a multitude of things could have turned it around...

 

Despite the unprecedented interference of the FBI accusing her of criminality at the last minute.
In face the two are related- since the lock her up crap started at Sanders rallies. Those who were on the fence or staying home were hoodwinked by MORE bullshit accusations.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:03 PM

29. Sure. I'm not going to dredge up for the purposes of this conversation whether all accusations

 


levied at the DNC or Clinton were bullshit, but yes, everything might have been a factor. I guess I'm not sure why you reminded me of the Comey thing in this thread. I thought it was a response to me saying that the DNC could have made a reconciliation with Sanders earlier, so if any animosity bled into the GE, we can all take our pick, depending on our own sentiments, as to who to blame.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:44 PM

38. Good points but

was all that resentment of the DNC's treatment of Sanders worth casting a vote to give Trump a path to the Presidency? Now instead of having a President potentially receptive to liberal reforms, we have a sociopath xenophobe who is surrounding himself with neocons on steroids with plans to set the progressive movement back several years.

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Response to Seasider (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 02:58 AM

39. No, but those individuals, whoever they are, weren't goaded to do so by Sanders

 


any more than they were by the DNC. That's a canard that people keep selling, and I'm just saying if they insist on the one, then the other also.

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 02:10 AM

3. Most people aren't going to face that reality very quickly, and those people who hate Hillary, or

 

Last edited Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)

politics, on the left, are unlikely to have had nay illusions that Trump was going to do good, competent, or even constitutional work in office. That wasn't the rationale. It was probably anticipated to be such a system shock that it wakes people up from their political apathy. That certainly may happen...so there's that?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:38 AM

4. I think Noam Chomsky said it best


"Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton made a ‘bad mistake’

"“I think they a bad mistake,” said Chomsky, who reiterated that it’s important to keep a “greater evil” from obtaining power, even if you’re not thrilled with the alternative. “I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of.”

Chomsky also attacked the arguments made by philosopher Slavoj Zizek, who argued that Trump’s election would at least shake up the system and provide a real rallying point for the left.

“ terrible point,” Chomsky told Hasan. “It was the same point that people like him said about Hitler in the early ’30s… he’ll shake up the system in bad ways.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/noam-chomsky-progressives-who-refused-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-made-a-bad-mistake/

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Response to still_one (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 04:30 AM

5. Yes, this is a fair criticism of the approach. I was just saying that people who

 

didn't vote for Clinton BUT didn't vote for Trump either, aren't suddenly being slapped with a reality that they didn't see coming. Whether or not their Gambit was worth it is something we can't know yet. It is certainly looking like a horror movie though.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:09 AM

7. They must be rejoicing now at all the system shock. I hold them accountable for it.


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Response to JCanete (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 07:45 AM

9. No, that neve happens.

There is never turn to the left after a rightwing troll is elected...people love to say shit like that, but it never happens...Clinton was the only Democrat to win after Reagan...he never had a majority and only won because of Perot...both in 92 and 96. Those who voted for Trump,stayed home, or vote third Party...probably destroyed the progressive movement for a generation.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:10 AM

13. Did you forget about President Obama?

Clinton wasn't the only Democrat to win after Reagan.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:39 PM

31. Exit polls in both 1992 and 1996 clearly showed that Perot took equally from both candidates.

And even that could only be said by Election Day. In the run-up to the election, both times, polls consistently showed Perot taking more from Clinton than his Republican opponents.

Besides, Clinton won by a very wide margin (8.5 points) in 1996. Dole would have had to win 90 percent of Perot (and other third party) voters to even come close.

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 05:47 AM

6. They're going to learn "the hard way". Serves them right. Narrow

minded idiots.

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 08:22 AM

10. I think the worst part is how such people style themselves "heroes" in their own minds.

 

When really they're just relentless shitbags.

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 09:15 AM

11. I understand them--Well, kinda

I didn't vote Democrat in National elections until 2000. It took George W. Bush even getting the nomination--to make me realize that voting socialist or writing in some ridiculous name was bullshit. Local elections--I usually voted Dem or Socialist. So I've been down that road, of "look at me, how revolutionary, how cynical I am"

I never ever, ever, at my most cynical, OR my most radical (from a feminist point of view, I thought the patriarchal systems millennials long human failure and needed to be torn down and built up) would have cast a vote for Trump. Or Bernie Sanders for that matter--he would have gotten the side eye from me.

Even when very young, I was politically aware enough to recognize the danger Trump represents. I was not, at that time, exposed to news much more than the TV and newspapers and books. I was on-line in the early 90's, I already was starting to see what we now call "fake news". It was dangerous now, and as it has proliferated, its gotten more dangerous, as mildly curious people form opinions from it without further research, zealots manipulate information to further their belief systems and people like Trump manipulate it to win presidencies.

I don't understand anyone who votes for a bigot, who uses bigotry in campaigning unless of course they are bigots themselves, or buy into on some level a bigots narrative. There is, in my mind no other answer. No other explanation. They own their vote.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:56 AM

16. This. And there is no hope changing their minds, either.

 

They have to be hit by a Great Depression and lose it all before there is any hope of changing their minds.

I doubt it even then. They won't listen.

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 01:52 PM

20. Yup...

The Rude Pundit ‏@rudepundit

"I won't vote for Clinton because I don't want a cabinet of Goldman Sachs executives" - People who now should punch themselves in the face



https://twitter.com/rudepundit/status/807295515352330240?lang=en


Sid

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Response to Grassy Knoll (Original post)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 02:14 PM

41. I saw a post on Joe.My.God that said it beautifully.

"They were out of my favorite pizza topping so I ate garbage instead."

And another post there: "The song of the narcissist - the Democrat didn't inspire me."

These aren't exact quotes but close enough. Both comments were devastatingly on target.

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