Finding common ground. Can most all of us agree about the following:

[Garrett78]

1) the Democratic Party must do all it can to combat voter suppression

2) the Democratic Party should make a big stink about gerrymandering

3) the Democratic Party should promote media literacy and critical thinking in schools, while drawing attention to the GOP's complicity in people subscribing to patently false beliefs

4) the Democratic Party should draw attention to the media's obsession with spectacle and penchant for false equivalencies, while promoting media responsibility (because long overdue is a strong pushback against the "liberal media" narrative; and the airwaves are part of "the commons&quot

5) Neither Clinton nor Sanders will be the nominee in 2020

Agree? Partially agree? Disagree completely?

[Pholus]

1. Agree completely.

You're going to find number 3 particularly difficult though. It will be hard enough to simply save the schools, let alone change them.

[Va Lefty]

2. Agree

3 & 4 will be very difficult. Schools have been going downhill for years due primarily to lack of $. As for 4, the media will never admit their culpability.

[crazycatlady]

3. I do agree

One point about media though.

The future is cord-cutters. I am borderline millennial and all of my friends rely on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu to get their TV and nobody has cable. I have only watched cable news when staying at hotels.

Most of my friends get their news via social media. The problem with that is everyone is in a bubble and reads only from sources they trust (guilty). They tend to share more biased sources.

[Garrett78]

5. The other problem is there's a hell of a lot of nonsense online.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

7. No kidding!

At least I never heard about "lizard people" and UN-imposed concentration camps on cable news!

Side note:
I Google-searched a political topic earlier and surreptitiously found a kook site that explained how the Rothschilds are behind Trump stealing the election! At least those people are now directing their attention at Trump!

[Hoyt]

28. No joke. Broadcast TV and cable news don't require quiet as much fact-checking.

There are on-line sources that I know will dig into the facts, but most people just don't care enough to do that. Some of the white wing junk posted as fact during the election from fake news sources astounded me.

[we can do it]

4. Sounds good.

[yardwork]

6. Agree

[baldguy]

8. How about: 0) Let's not attack the Democratic Party

We need a national party to counter the national fascist movement infesting the country. But too many who pretend to be liberals seem to want the Democratic Party to be destroyed - just like the GOP does.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. And do you make a distiction between criticism and attack?

Because I see lots of posts here that look like contructive criticism to me, but look like attacks to others. How do you distinguish?

[baldguy]

20. Attacks use RW talking points.

How many posts have you seen saying that our candidate was arrogant, untrustworthy or corrupt? All RW lies. Just like those saying the Democratic Party is out of touch, or "Republican Lite".

[bettyellen]

24. Well said- the people who started that shit here turned out to be a bunch of trolls for Trump....

You'd think that would make some more well intentioned people think about repeating RW crap.

[uponit7771]

39. +1

[JCanete]

18. neither your analysis nor your solution rate as something we can all agree upon. nt

[baldguy]

21. Perhaps all of us aren't capital-D Democrats.

Perhaps some really want to see the Republicans permanently succeed.

[JCanete]

23. maybe some of us are capital-A Americans. The Democratic party is good so long as it is actually

good, not simply by virtue of being the Democratic Party. I say let's keep it good and make it better.

I'm not sure why you think that organizations of people are innately good. That's just not the way they work. They are only as good as what the people in them fight for them to be. That goes for our nation too. Just as people write off Black Lives Matter or Kaepernick for kneeling during the National Anthem in the "Best Country on Earth," as ungrateful, you would like to do the same for people who push for a more liberal Democratic party, but nobody has ever gotten anything without pushing and fighting. All of those metrics these people use to justify "greatest country on earth," no matter how flawed the premise might be, exist because of people who have fought to get more equality and rights for themselves and for their brothers and sisters.

You insist that everybody who is dissatisfied with the current Democratic Party is an interloper or simply a hater, and that just isn't the case.

Republicans permanently succeed if we continue to play by big money's rules. Being the less corporate option will always be a solid backup for the rich and powerful, but they will always put more weight behind their true love. Either we do as the OP suggested and start fighting that corporate messaging-- and I say label it as such--or we can count on being the minority party until there's no nation left to capitulate in.

[baldguy]

25. See post # 20

Those using RW talking points are not Americans. At best, they're tools. At worst, they're fascist collaborators.

You don't seem to understand the desperate situation this country is facing right now. This isn't like Cater losing in 1980, or the coup d'etat in 2000. This is like the fall of the Weimar Republic. War, global economic hardship, and massive attacks on civil liberties are real possibilities. And you're whining about how corrupt President von Hindenburg is because he gets his suits from Savile Row.

[JCanete]

29. but unlike you, I see this as a trend and ultimate result that the

Democratic Leadership has helped to create. Our media has been owned almost exclusively by 5 to 7 corps and mega-corps, for a long fucking time, and instead of just calling that out and fighting it already, they thought that it would be better to have their own insider megacorp outlet. That was wishful thinking at its finest, to think that a single channel could balance out all of the misinformation coming out of all the other news sources...and to think that it would be enough to fight against Republicans and their voters rather than their owners, to try to court those same owners with "sane" compromising policy that would keep them in the most milk, when they already own the people who would give them the whole cow...

we are reaping our own long-term party strategy right now. And the question remains, do we really even want to fight? We already know no matter what we do, we're going to get shit on in the media come the next cycle. We should do as the GOP does and say fuck the media, but do what the GOP can't actually defend against, and show the American people why a "liberal media" is such an absurd notion. All they have to do is follow the money. And while we say fuck the media, if we were actually going to fight for what was good for this nation, we would take the opportunity we have and appoint every single justice position we can during the coming window. There is no good reason not to do this. Do you think Obama will? Do you think the Democratic Senate would support him in enough numbers?

And there is a very big difference between left wing criticisms of the Democratic Party and those that come from the right. Even in that rare instance when a Republican picks up a liberal criticism, that doesn't suddenly make it right-wing, and I only know of one crazy candidate to have done that anyway.

[baldguy]

30. Don't even start with that RW "Democrats are the same as Republicans" bullshit.

Using a RW talking point to attack Democrats automatically makes it a RW attack. The only difference is that the RWrs don't believe it for a second. Why the fuck do you believe it?

In this election cycle the was a clear distinction between the Dems and the GOP. It was between democracy and fascism. Freedom and slavery. Rationality and insanity. Anyone critical of the Democratic Party chose fascism, slavery & insanity.

[JCanete]

32. not what I said. In fact nothing you said addressed my issues with the Democratic Party or

my characterization of it. I'm a Democrat, obviously because I see differences between our party and the Republican party.

And you saying that right wing talking points are right wing talking points is pretty much saying nothing at all. How do you define a left wing criticism of the party, or is there even such a thing in your mind?

[JCanete]

35. I am like what? That was a shitty connection to try to make on so many levels.

What did I say that corroborates your argument about me? Point it out where I said something that was actually a right-wing talking point. It's all right there for you. Nothing is edited. Come on...take a shot.

[baldguy]

36. I didn't makes any connection - you did.

When you decided to use a RW propaganda talking point to attack the Democratic Party. Then when you tried to deny it.

You don't like being called out on your offensive behavior? Too bad. You've only got yourself to blame.

[JCanete]

38. fuck that, you are still avoiding pointing it out. That is simply cowardice. Either admit you were

full of it, or actually call out a specific argument I made and make the case to me and others that it was a rightwing talking point.

Your third option is telling.

[baldguy]

40. If you can't see what you're doing, then you're too far down the GOP's garden path to save.

I suspect that you know exactly what you're doing, though.

[JCanete]

41. You're being pretty shameless. If you really just didn't want to bother because this is a waste of

your time you would have just ended the conversation. Instead, you've posted the same empty accusations 3 times. Why not spend some of those words proving them. Hell, I'm happy to learn. Sometimes I'm wrong. Just show me the most obvious example...fuck it, don't even attempt to explain your choice. I'll let it stand! I won't even comment on what an amazing stretch of reasoning you just did. Just you know, own your words enough to point to something.

[JCanete]

44. Oh I see, it's New Years! Hope the hangover isn't too rough on you. I assure you, we're both

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2017, 02:48 AM - Edit history (1)

dreading 2017 and the next 3 years.

[joshcryer]

34. This is fundamental.

Two of the Convention chairs were fucking Jill Stein supporters, for fucks sake. How utterly asinine are Democrats to allow this eating of their own so trivially.

[baldguy]

37. Some people seem to think that the first step in defeating the fascist Republicans

is to destroy the Democrats. Then they get all bent out of shape when they're exposed as a RW tool.

[joshcryer]

45. Two Democratic Chairs being Jill Stein supporters...

...could have only gone one way.

What a fucking miscalculation of epic proportions. Democrats need to get hardened like Republicans.

[Yurovsky]

9. Per #5, I want to see some new faces running for POTUS...

I was a Bernie supporter and voted for HRC, but we are overdue for an injection of youth and enthusiasm. That was a key factor in President Obama's 2008 victory, and I'm hoping someone will make a name for themself in the next 2-3 years.

Bernie and HRC are going to be in their mid to late 70s in 2020. It's time for a new generation to pick up the torch.

[dionysus]

10. Agree with almost all but #4 could backfire. Drawing the ire of the media at large can

Sink entire campaigns. Perilous.

[Garrett78]

11. Republicans have been attacking the media relentlessly for decades.

And I'd say it's paid dividends.

[dionysus]

12. The media is RW owned, they'll suck it up from the rethugs. Either they are RW owned or

they bend so far over backwards to avoid the "liberal media" tag, that they might as well be...

[Garrett78]

14. "they bend so far over backwards to avoid the "liberal media" tag."

And that's my point. Republicans have gotten away with applying that tag. They've been relentless...for a very long time now. They knew what they were doing, and they've succeeded.

Media consolidation is certainly an issue worth raising, as well.

[JCanete]

17. but they don't actually bend over backwards to avoid that tag...that's the irony. They sell

the shit out of that tag themselves. It is a hilarious manufacturing of consent that gives them cover for why they have to be "fair and balanced" with their fact-free coverage. It gives every story out of their mouths that sounds right wing an air of authenticity for somehow breaching that liberal dam of lies, and makes every factual story that supports liberal beliefs or candidates, dismissible as standard liberal propaganda.

which is just such a brilliant mind-fuck, because there is so much more of the former than the latter.

[JCanete]

16. it will but there is no choice. Going after corporations is also a way of drawing ire of the media.

Either we go all in or we lose over and over...but we can count on always coming in a really close second!

[JCanete]

15. Agree almost entirely, with the caveat that we can't just pretend the media does spectacle and false

equivalency for ratings. They are a propaganda wing for corporate interests and we need to address them as such.


But if we could just get our leadership to do this at the very barest minimum, it would be a party worth fighting for.

By the way, kudos for the post, and I hope we can see more of this going forward.

[aikoaiko]

19. I with you on everything except the gerrymandering

Because it's a waste of time. We can fight true gerrymandering in the courts. If the evidence isn't there then it's just the normal maximization that occurs when a party controls the legislator and executive branches. We've done it, we'll do it again when and where we get the chance.

[hurl]

22. Mostly

The only part that gives me a little pause is #4: the airwaves are part of "the commons". I completely agree with the concept, but airwaves are totally irrelevant now.

This is exactly why restoring the Fairness Doctrine would be useless. Airwaves consist solely of broadcast media, which have long since been practically abandoned. Airwaves don't cover cable news. They don't cover internet news or social media, because all those are now privately sourced and not on public airwaves that are part of "the commons." They are from private content providers who get to skirt any requirements related to the commons.

[guillaumeb]

26. I agree on the what.

The how represents an even bigger problem.

[brush]

27. Agreed. Fix or ditching the EC should also be a big priority as well.

[Gothmog]

31. The GOP is the party of voter suppression and relies on voter suppression to win races

I have been volunteering here for a while. We had 200+ poll watchers in Harris County and cut down on some violations of the court order on voter id law. More needs to be done.

[Ken Burch]

43. Agreed. And neither Hillary NOR Bernie, nor either of their supporters,

should be the subject of any further attack or recriminations. We can't recover unless we get everyone who supported both candidates AND everyone who voted minor-party or didn't vote at all, inside the same tent.