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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:18 AM Oct 2013

The case for throwing Republicans a fig leaf

It's a straight forward argument. If Republicans get some face saving fig leaf in return for backing off the creaking branch that they've climbed out onto, the odds increase that our American political system won't blunder into a miscalculation of historic proportions, failing to raise our debt limit on time and thus plunging the world into some semblance of a depression after a United States default. A Depression isn't a mere political talking point, anything even reassembling one carries horrific suffering for tens of millions of people. It is an extremely heavy price to pay if that is what it ends up costing to defend a sane and functional governing process in Washington. But personally I am very strongly moved by the counter argument; you simply can not reward terrorists for hostage taking, as it always leads to an even larger crisis somewhere not far down the road.

When two compelling arguments clash head on there isn't much room for some middle ground.between them. In my opinion here it what that is. Republicans may need to be given some fig leaf to save some face behind, even though that might fit the definition of making a concession in the face of extortion. But Republicans still need to be humiliated for what they are now putting this nation through. Any fig leaf they might receive has to be conspicuously tiny, it has to be laughably small, it has to obviously be nothing more than a face saving gesture tossed to them by Democrats in return for Republicans finally backing down.

There can be no real reward for what the Republicans have done. Whatever they "win" from this entire charade they have forced upon our nation has to be pitiful, a consolation prize so small that it is barely worth the cost of a stamp to cash it in. It has to be so relatively inconsequential that everyone outside of the hardest core radical tea party fringe will burst out laughing whenever a Republican tries to justify what they did to America in order to win that fig leaf in return.

The Tea Party is off the charts delusional now in their own sense of self importance. They have reached the point where a suicide mission involving the death of innocents is defended as an honorable course of action. They will persist in their delusions whether or not Republicans get tossed any bones in the ongoing talks inside Washington. But the rest of the Republican Party is desperate to negotiate some surrender terms that they can pretend is something other than total capitulation. When you strip all the politics out of it that is simply human nature. That's why the concept of face saving gestures is well established in nearly every culture on earth.

Here is the bottom line though. The Republicans can't come out of this showdown looking good in the eyes of anyone other than the most rabid supporters of that Party, and even that handful of extreme partisans need to come away feeling extremely disappointed with the outcome from this entire exercise in dangerous brinkmanship and masochistic futility. That's what it means to offer a fig leaf to someone who is otherwise stark naked. They don't exit the scene looking dressed again, they look like someone clutching a fig leaf to their genitals, scurrying away with their knees knocking. That is the price that Democrats minimally need to hold out for this time. That is probably a sufficient price for Republicans to pay to not embolden them to try something like this again.

It's a calculated risk, I grant that. There is some pretty crazy thinking in today's Republican Party, and no doubt some in that Party will end up thinking they can spin any fig leaf tossed them into a fine new silk suit. And yes, even fig leafs have value, even fig leafs represent real concessions, small as they might be. But real lives literally hang in the balance now. If Republicans unquestionably lose this stand off in the public eye, regardless of any face saving gestures Democrats ultimately allow them, in the most fundamental political sense they will not end up rewarded for their hostage taking.

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The case for throwing Republicans a fig leaf (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Oct 2013 OP
Instead of talking about offering them a fig leaf we should be talking about flaying them alive. nt Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #1
any award/reward for bad behavior will just enable future bad behavior. NRaleighLiberal Oct 2013 #2
I get that. I'm looking at the concept of "reward" Tom Rinaldo Oct 2013 #6
absolutely daybranch Oct 2013 #11
The only way repugs can truly save face is to do what normal human beings do. gtar100 Oct 2013 #3
You are talking about actually scoring a few points back more so than mere face saving Tom Rinaldo Oct 2013 #7
Declare victory, because we won BeyondGeography Oct 2013 #4
How about an autographed photo of Pres. Obama? nt SDjack Oct 2013 #5
I suggest he write this: LiberalElite Oct 2013 #8
LOL! Perfect. Tom Rinaldo Oct 2013 #9
I defer to a superior suggestion. nt SDjack Oct 2013 #12
That would be perfect Make it one with a big smile ruffburr Oct 2013 #10
Here is my problem with this solution -- IdaBriggs Oct 2013 #13
No fig leaf Gothmog Oct 2013 #14
Fuck face saving - they should be tarred and feathered AT LEAST... polichick Oct 2013 #15
Why should democrats be the ones to bend Hutzpa Oct 2013 #16
There is evidence that Boner orchestrated this whole mess. savalez Oct 2013 #17
I strongly suspect that Democrats would make the strongest political gains if either Tom Rinaldo Oct 2013 #18
I tend to think that it would be a bad thing to default but savalez Oct 2013 #21
Sorry - but no rewards for "Brinksmanship." Blue Idaho Oct 2013 #19
They went to far, interfering with beer drinking. Give them zip! Coyotl Oct 2013 #20
If Dems can't even win this boneheaded fight, they don't deserve to govern. polichick Oct 2013 #22

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
6. I get that. I'm looking at the concept of "reward"
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:45 AM
Oct 2013

And if the stakes were any lower I wouldn't give any of this a further thought. But the suffering associated with default is very real and most likely very long lasting - interest rates on personal finances may take a permanent hit for example. Not to mention spikes in hunger, homelessness etc.

So this is some open political musing. Obviously I'm not someone with a seat at any talks. But if the end game of this confrontation, even with a fig leaf tossed Republicans, iincludes public confidence in that Party taking a serious hit, one bad enough to slam them over the head in the 2014 elections resulting in the loss of a number of seats they should not otherwise lose, then they will not exit this showdown with the sense of having been rewarded for it, with an incentive to do it again.

That is the premise of this OP. A fig leaf by defiinition should be humiliating and no one forced to wear one for cover after being totally exposed as crassly political against the welfare of the American people should be able to claim that as a real win without people laughing at them.

daybranch

(1,309 posts)
11. absolutely
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 11:17 AM
Oct 2013

the lack of retribution in our system destroys accountability. We need to punish those who try to destroy our democracy, hurt our old, our children, and our poor. We do not have to let them continue to get away wih it.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
3. The only way repugs can truly save face is to do what normal human beings do.
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:35 AM
Oct 2013

Apologize with sincerity, stop supporting policies that hurt so many people, and start working on solutions to our problems that actually work. In other words, prove to us that you are in your position to actually help, not just get what you and your buddies want at our expense. A long, slow road to recovery is the only *real* way to "save face".

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
7. You are talking about actually scoring a few points back more so than mere face saving
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:49 AM
Oct 2013

You are right. Only what you describe would begin to restore a modicum of public confidence in the potential leadership of the Republican Party moving forward from here. A fig leaf is a different concept - it's a mostly psychological ploy that makes it easier for someone to surrender and accept defeat rather than keep on fighting.

BeyondGeography

(39,367 posts)
4. Declare victory, because we won
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:43 AM
Oct 2013

If there's any doubt about that, look at the polls. Obama's ratings are up 5-6 points and the GOP is at -25. Even Obamacare rose a few points. The Republicans have been exposed to many average apolitical Americans, finally, as pointless pot stirrers. Even worse, sore losers. That said, people don't want this saga to drag on, they don't want real damage to the economy and they won't change their minds about who won if the Republicans, who began this quixotic journey looking to kill Obamacare let's remember, get 5% of what they want.

So, you're right. Even though I fully expect these guys to do battle with the Rabbit of Caerbannog again. If so, the beatings will continue as they'll be entering the fray seriously weakened based on what happened this go-round. Bank this win and move on.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
9. LOL! Perfect.
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 10:58 AM
Oct 2013

What the Republican Right has not yet understood is that they have given America brinkmanship fatigue. The damage they have already suffered will only multiply if they kick this crisis a few feet down the road with some temporary resolutions and then drag the country through all of this drama again in another few months.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
13. Here is my problem with this solution --
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 11:31 AM
Oct 2013

We've done that. In fact, it has been done so often, there is a public perception that Democrats have no spine, and the Republicans are better at governing. Democrats give concessions, and no one has a clue what the Republicans give, because we never hear about it (unless they break the deal, and we get teeth gnashing over it).

I don't want this situation to *ever* happen again - a bunch of idiots who don't understand how the government pays its bills thinking they can ignore the Executive Branch and the Constitution to get their way.

They actually sent a CR to the Senate with the "option" of not paying for birth control. What would have stopped them from adding "and women can't have abortions and the civil rights rules are banned and slavery is legal if someone owes money and only Christians are allowed to hold office and everyone in the Tea Party gets a pony?"

Should we wring our hands and pay the bills anyway because we *have* to pay the bills? Should we give them a fig leaf over that?

When does it end?

Well, for me, it ends now. No mercy. No negotiation. A clean CR, raise the fricking debt ceiling, and if you want your whacked out crazy ideas to become mainstream, win enough elections to torture the rest of us into kicking your butt back into the 18th century.

Seriously, the Republicans have actually got an acting governor in power who wants to make consensual oral sex illegal in your own home. I am not going to count on them to act like responsible people who shouldn't be treated like they have dementia until they start acting like reasonable people.

No fig leaves. Its time for them to roll over and play dead because they shot themselves with this one, and there is no reason anybody should have to pretend they aren't stupid.

If they don't want to govern, they can go home. Oh, and I support Bill Maher's Rule: "If you think the End Times are Nearly Here, that is your right, but you don't get to vote on next year's budget because it doesn't apply to you."

polichick

(37,152 posts)
15. Fuck face saving - they should be tarred and feathered AT LEAST...
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:45 PM
Oct 2013

If Dems offer a fig leaf of any kind this will happen again.

Hutzpa

(11,461 posts)
16. Why should democrats be the ones to bend
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 02:06 PM
Oct 2013

over every time the republicans create a stinker? I really don't get it why some of us are asking for the democrats
to give in.

Giving in shows democrats are path of the problem, period.

savalez

(3,517 posts)
17. There is evidence that Boner orchestrated this whole mess.
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:13 PM
Oct 2013

What do you think will happen if the WH and Senate/House Dems do nothing but place the blame squarely on him and we go into default? Is it possible that the House will eventually kick him out of his leadership position?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
18. I strongly suspect that Democrats would make the strongest political gains if either
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:24 PM
Oct 2013

we don't budge an inch and the Republicans cave or we don't budge an inch and the Republicans crash the economy. But maximizing our political gains is not the only matter of importance to consider now. Either you believe the President and others have been blowing smoke and it's no big deal if we default or you agree with him that it is a catastropy about to happen. Which is it? if it is the latter then millions of people will be hurt, many very very badly. What happens politically as a consequence won't be the biggest thing on our minds, and that includes the fate of Boehner.

savalez

(3,517 posts)
21. I tend to think that it would be a bad thing to default but
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 05:34 PM
Oct 2013

I can't help but to also think that ultimately the USA (and the world) would be better off without Boner/Cantor so getting them overridden would be beneficial. For all we know it could happen within days of a default. Why not try? It's not like we're not going to be threatened by another default/shutdown again in the future.

Blue Idaho

(5,045 posts)
19. Sorry - but no rewards for "Brinksmanship."
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:40 PM
Oct 2013

The Teapublicans deserve the wrath of the world when they and they alone crash the global economy. I wish we could offer them an olive branch, but they would only use as a weapon in the future. These soulless zombie politicians need to have a stake driven through their hearts once and for all.

Im afraid its time for them (and sadly the rest of us) to suffer the natural consequences of their traitorous actions.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
20. They went to far, interfering with beer drinking. Give them zip!
Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:59 PM
Oct 2013

Bonamici Calls for Speedy Approval of New Beer Labels Upon End of Government Shutdown
http://bonamici.house.gov/press-release/bonamici-calls-speedy-approval-new-beer-labels-upon-end-government-shutdown

Washington, D.C. – The government shutdown is causing big headaches for Oregon brewers because the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB), which approves new beer labels and recipes, is closed. Permits for popular seasonal beer varieties have been held up and there is a risk of a continued lag even after the government reopens. Congresswoman Suzanne Bonamici (D-OR) today sent a letter to TTB Administrator Manfreda asking that the bureau do everything it can to work through its growing backlog as quickly as possible when the shutdown ends.

“Seasonal varieties are crucial to small brewers in Oregon, but if they can’t get new labels approved they can’t move forward with production,” said Bonamici. “The closure of the TTB is just another example of how the government shutdown is hurting our local economy. I’ve called repeatedly for both sides to work together to reopen the government. After reopening, agencies like TTB will still have large backlogs. The average processing time before the shutdown was 12 days. That’s likely to increase significantly when the government reopens unless agencies work strategically to eliminate their backlogs. ”
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