“This is a victory for diplomacy over saber-rattling"- Bernie Sanders on Iran deal

[virtualobserver]

“This is a victory for diplomacy over saber-rattling and could keep the United States from being drawn into another never-ending war in the Middle East,

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-14/bernie-sanders-says-iran-deal-victory-for-diplomacy-

[AgingAmerican]

1. As he has been saying for decades

nt

[Aerows]

7. Yep

It drives the Hill people crazy. He has been consistent.

[Walk away]

52. Do you really think we actually care?

That in itself is kind of funny. I think it's great he is saying what every other Democrat is saying! It practically makes him seem like part of the party!

[stevenleser]

2. A version of the buttered cat paradox at work

Given three statements I see from some folks:

1. Obama and anyone who supports him is a warmongering 3rd wayer
2. Sanders is the opposite of a third wayer
3. Sanders supports what Obama did with regards to Iran.

This is a paradox and an impossible conundrum, akin to the idea of attaching buttered toast on the back of a cat with the butter facing up and dropping the cat from 5-6 feet or more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttered_cat_paradox

[Aerows]

4. If this is the analogy you are going with

well, proceed.

[virtualobserver]

6. always on the attack, I see

Neither Bernie nor Obama were in favor of starting a war in Iraq.

[stevenleser]

8. Whether it's an attack depends on your perspective, and if you have a sense of humor, I suppose. nt

[virtualobserver]

9. your idea of a joke? "Obama and anyone who supports him is a warmongering 3rd wayer"

why, that is hilarious.

[stevenleser]

10. I suppose if you take things out of context you can make all kinds of things out of them. nt

[virtualobserver]

12. there is no end to your spinning

in context, it was an attack

[stevenleser]

14. You intentionally quoted out of context to change the meaning of what I wrote, that's spinning

And in terms of whether its an attack, again, that depends on your perspective, and whether you have a sense of humor.

[stevenleser]

17. Here's another hint, it's the cognitive dissonance that is making you mad, not what I wrote

If anyone actually believes that Obama and anyone who supports him is a third wayer, and I am afraid a few folks do, that sets them up to be frustrated by the scenario I pointed out.

But that's not my fault.

[virtualobserver]

19. no, it is your perpetual spinning that is annoying, Bernie, Obama and I were against the Iraq War

Hillary was the one who voted for it.

[stevenleser]

20. You keep making my point for me. Thanks for that! nt

[virtualobserver]

24. your point is that we should vote for Bernie, since Hillary voted for the war?

point taken

[stevenleser]

25. If you think spinning is bad, you really should go back over your posts. nt

[virtualobserver]

27. you never stop

good luck with your jokes

[stevenleser]

30. Why should I stop if I am having so much fun!

Cheers!

[stevenleser]

11. And here is a hint: There is a qualifying antecedent to your quote out of context. nt

[DanTex]

13. Yeah, the cognitive dissonance has got to be pretty unsettling for some.

And if you want to blow some minds totally apart, point out that Hillary's PAC donated to Bernie's senate campaign.

[stevenleser]

15. And you can see how furious that cognitive dissonance has made at least one person

[daleanime]

29. As long as you enjoyed it.

[AgingAmerican]

16. Bernie is against war

And it's bad, bad, bad!

[stevenleser]

18. Sure and that's what I wrote... not. nt

[AgingAmerican]

22. What else could be construed

From your intentionally vague sour reaction to what Bernie said?

Well, there is this: The plot to marginalize Bernie Sanders: The shared agenda that links Fox News and Hillary Clinton surrogates.

[stevenleser]

23. Its neither vague nor sour. It's precise and quite delightfully happy. It's your cognitive

dissonance that is irritating you, not what I wrote.

[AgingAmerican]

34. Do you even know what 'cognitive dissonance' means?

You seem not to. It is where your beliefs don't not match up with your observations. We are seeing it a lot from Hillary's supporters. Your bitter reaction to Bernie's statement, and subsequent vague 'defence' of it is exactly that. Perhaps you didn't realize your post would elicit such a negative response? My advise is that you stop digging!

One can only conclude that you are projecting.

[stevenleser]

35. Yes, I do. And I see lots of it in Hillary and Obama detractors! nt

[AgingAmerican]

37. A better label for your supposed 'paradox'

Is 'pissing in the Cheerios'.

[stevenleser]

38. As I said above, depends on your perspective and your sense of humor.

I would expect that folks going around leveling "Third way" accusations are irritated from seeing themselves in what I wrote.

[AgingAmerican]

41. In your mind

“This is a victory for diplomacy over saber-rattling" = an attack on Obama and Hillary.

Third Way® Sour grapes

[stevenleser]

43. Thou doth protest too much methinks

[AgingAmerican]

48. Your reaction to Bernies statement

...doth parallel that of the gang over at FOX and friends, methinks

Bottom feeding

[stevenleser]

49. And with that you surrender the argument. And I accept your surrender!

[1monster]

65. I'm not sure why this scene keeps going through my mind...

[stevenleser]

71. Hey, if the cognitive dissonance didnt bother folks so much, they wouldnt respond with angry posts

Again, when confronted by something that causes cognitive dissonance, attacking the person who pointed out the conflicting statements might feel better, but it wont resolve the conflict.

and I'm a Monty Python fan, btw.

[1monster]

72. Woosh!

[stevenleser]

75. Oh I got it. I chose not to agree with your frame. nt

[djean111]

32. What is so sad is that you cannot understand looking at policies individually; all or nothing,

right? Wrong. You should, perhaps, back away from using hyperbole. Or do you really see everything as one big amorphous mass - we must love it all? Personally, I consider that presidents come and go. What they do to us stays. I don't care about Obama personally. If Bernie was pushing the TPP I would back away from Bernie. The cult of personality thing is creepy, really.

[stevenleser]

36. That doesnt square with the "Third Way" accusations I see leveled all the time. Perchance you have

objected to such accusations? I would love to see a link of you doing that.

[virtualobserver]

40. yes, are you now, or have you ever been a "third way" accuser! n/t

[stevenleser]

42. Oh I don't think you need to resort to Macarthyist accusations. Pointing out problematic logic is

enough for me.

[virtualobserver]

44. You were the one demanding proof that they had spoken out against the horrific "3rd way" accusers

that was my point

[stevenleser]

46. Oh, "Demanding!!!!!!!111!!11", for someone who proclaims they don't like spinning, you sure do it

a lot.

[virtualobserver]

47. as usual, you muddy the water and sidestep

you are in the right business

[stevenleser]

50. You wrote nothing of substance to address. nt

[virtualobserver]

58. you are not willing to address it...there is a difference

[stevenleser]

59. Nope. You said I demanded, and I didn't. Simple, end of story. nt

[virtualobserver]

64. you wouldn't admit that your first post was an attack....

why would I expect you to respond to anything else?

[stevenleser]

69. Why dont I accept your definition of what my post means? Hmmm. Sounds controlling for one.

I dont think pointing out conflicts in other peoples beliefs is an attack. It certainly frustrates those other people, but again, that is not the fault of the person pointing it out.

Sorry.

[virtualobserver]

74. first you said it was a joke, now it is a conflict in other peoples beliefs

as mentioned more than once I support the President and Bernie Sanders
I supported him in 2008 as well

I posted something from Bernie that praised the presidents success

You replied to my initial post with this

"
Given three statements I see from some folks:

1. Obama and anyone who supports him is a warmongering 3rd wayer
2. Sanders is the opposite of a third wayer
3. Sanders supports what Obama did with regards to Iran. "

since both Bernie and I have supported and still support the President
I found it neither funny, nor expressive of my "cognitive dissonance".

It is Hillary that I don't support.

[stevenleser]

77. Correct. It's a joke based on a conflict in other people's beliefs. nt

[Ed Suspicious]

73. Just ignore the troll, man. It isn't worth fighting with FOX and Friends.

[stevenleser]

76. As I noted, as soon as folks raise that canard, it's clear they have nothing and have lost the

argument.

Please, by all means, but me on ignore if you can't handle what I have to say.

[Capt. Obvious]

78. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jul 14, 2015, 12:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Just ignore the troll, man. It isn't worth fighting with FOX and Friends.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=444683

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Alright, flat out calling fellow DU'ers -troll - is going too far. Enough of the name-calling and backbiting. They were having a perfectly above board argument until this cat jumped in with the pettiness.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 14, 2015, 12:17 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
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[Enthusiast]

89. +1

[djean111]

45. Oh, I consider Obama and Hillary Third Wayers because of their economic policy.

Has nothing to do with war. Has everything to do with the Third Way triangulation thing, and purposely setting social and economic policies against each other, as if we had to make a choice. Or as if they had to make a choice. TPP - Third Way. Read their website. Read the website for the New Democrat Coalition. Third Way economic policies. Embracing the GOP on economic issues. I beieve the NDC even says something like to hell with ideology, we want to work with the GOP.

Just declined to sign a petition thanking Hillary for saying Social Security should be strengthened.
Reminded them that Third Wayers think it should be strengthened by using things like Chained CPI, and Progressives think in terms of raising the cap and increasing payouts. So I said I would wait for the fine print.

[Mnpaul]

83. social liberal - economically conservative

Third Way 101 - duh

what a bus load of silly

[kenfrequed]

53. Lovely...

It is nice to know that you don't think that we on the left can actually be happy for the president or celebrate it when he does things that we support.




Also, you just failed logic with a series of false premises.

[stevenleser]

54. I thought it was lovely too...

and no, the logic isn't failed. You can assert that no one fits the scenario, that's possible, but the logic is actually quite good.

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Dude... Keith Olbermann you're not.

[bvf]

82. That's the stupidest example of a paradox

I've read in quite some time.

But, hey, Wikipedia, eh?

[RichVRichV]

88. You didn't get very far in logic I take it.

1) While many Bernie supporters consider Obama a 'third wayer', we don't by and large consider him a 'warmonger'. In fact many of us have been supportive of him on Iran, Cuba, and withdraw from Iraq.


2) 'Third wayer' and 'warmonger' are not synonyms. A person can be a 'warmonger' and not be a 'third wayer' (look at the tea party). Likewise they can be a 'third wayer' and not a 'warmonger'. 'Third way' tends to refer to economic beliefs, whereas 'warmonger' is a foreign affairs position. Even though there may be overlap between the two that doesn't make them intricately linked. Therefor Sanders being opposite of a 'third wayer' will not automatically make him opposite a 'warmongerer' by definition. Since Obama is not a 'warmongerer' the position is moot anyways.


3) Even if 'warmonger' and 'third wayer' were synonyms (which they're not), agreeing on a specific position does not break a logical conclusion, since neither 'warmongerer' nor 'third wayer' are absolute defined positions, only general references of positions. For example, both 'third wayers' and 'non third wayers' agree the country must have a military to protect us. That agreement does not create a logical paradox of positions.

[Aerows]

3. He is a person

that gets it.

He aligns with my views.

I don't want more dead people, more injured American soldiers. I want a strong America where we don't have to send our best and brightest to their graves for dubious reasons.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. To react in any other way would betray

his own life's work. I never expected anything different from him.

[Fred Sanders]

21. Secretary Clinton jump-started these talks, hope Bernie will mention that...or the media.

[stevenleser]

26. More buttered cat paradox at work!

[Fred Sanders]

33. That feline is purring, can't you hear her? Give the cat credit where credit is due - it is a good motto.

[Comrade Grumpy]

67. Enjoy your trolling. n/t

[stevenleser]

68. I can't help it if the things I point out cause cognitive dissonance in others. That should cause

folks to re-examine their beliefs, not complain about the person who pointed out the conflicts.

But thanks for responding!

[Comrade Grumpy]

79. Grow up. Or go on Fox News and spout your garble.

[stevenleser]

80. I love it when folks raise that Canard. In other words, you've got nothing! Thanks for letting me

know!

[Comrade Grumpy]

81. Alert results:

On Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:23 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Grow up. Or go on Fox News and spout your garble.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=444983

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Ya know, this guy just keeps it going with the rude and insulting comments. Juries keep letting him slide. I'm going to alert anyway, at some point the jury will do their job and put a stop to this kind of hateful sniping.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:40 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

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Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
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Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[NCTraveler]

28. Obama and Kerry leading the way.

Amazing job by them.

[virtualobserver]

31. I couldn't agree more n/t

[DCBob]

39. Good way to put it.

[kenfrequed]

51. Definitely!

This president deserves our praise on this one. He has pushed off the neo-cons and the arm chair warriors.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

55. Hillary seems to have come around on Iran

way back in 2008 I guess things were somewhat different.

[stevenleser]

56. Bush and Cheney had screwed up things with Iran it almost didnt seem like fixing it was possible

They rebuffed two offers from Iran during their tenure. Which is doubly odd since 'W's dad was a member of an administration that worked several deals with Iran.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Would you please inform your interlocutors

Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2015, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Would you please inform your interlocutors that PBO called HRC last night to thank her for starting secret negotiations with Iran when she was SOS that has led to the landmark agreement we have now.


I hate to see the denizens of this board so woefully misinformed.


Thank you in advance.

[stevenleser]

70. I think you did an excellent job yourself!

[rladdi]

57. The Republicans esp. Speaker Boehner does NOT want Peace.

the GOP is all about more war, more debt, more mass killings of our troops. They continue to live in the G. Bush era. They cannot think about the future. They will destroy this nation if they get the White House.

[sadoldgirl]

66. I would not go quite this far.

It is much simpler than that:

If Obama succeeds with this treaty, he will get
the well deserved credit. That is a big GOP NO, NO.

I doubt that the repugs would scream and holler,
if one of their own had done this.

[CTBlueboy]

60. Peace

Today neo-cons and Hawks cry as MIC beast is not going to be fed the blood of innocent civilian or troops.

[jwirr]

62. K&R

[2banon]

84. What a tragic waste of your time virtualobserver.. The fox snooze spin head completely trashed your

your otherwise "good to hear" post. Seems like there ought to be rule against that kind of trolling.

Rec'n the OP..

but not the subthreads.

[virtualobserver]

86. it is my fault......he has no interest in an actual discussion

it is just hard for me to let go

but thanks for the support

[bucolic_frolic]

85. Bernie has an ear

for soundbites

The Republican strategy and modus operandi for the last 50 years:

"Saber-rattling"

[virtualobserver]

87. he packs a punch with no wasted motion

that is one of the reasons why this political season is so much fun