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[KMOD]

This message was self-deleted by its author (KMOD) on Mon Oct 19, 2015, 04:48 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[djean111]

1. Why don't we wait and see who wins the primaries, before demanding the loyalty pledge?

And why always present things as if of course Hillary has won the primary? This is a freaking primary. Anything can happen.

[winter is coming]

2. The whole point of loyalty pledges is coercing people into doing something they

might not do otherwise. Wouldn't it be better to create a situation where such coercion is unnecessary?

[djean111]

5. Oh, the answer to that is usually "let's all support Hillary right now!!!".

Nope. Her campaign rolled out very badly, IMO, and was all about her and money and she is still gathering info on what her policy should be. No thanks. I will wait and see what happens in the primaries.

[winter is coming]

15. But it's Hillary or Republican! NO OTHER CHOICES!!!!!! n/t

[winter is coming]

25. The neverending variants on "you have two choices" lectures amaze me.

Whom do you hope to persuade?

[winter is coming]

28. And instead of answering my question, you opt for another round of browbeating.

If I wanted to discourage people from voting, I'd do exactly what you're doing right now. Ponder that.

[winter is coming]

47. Try this one: the general election is over a year away.

The primaries have not yet begun. So what's the point of lecturing people about voting for the Dem nominee now? Is it really that hard a sell? For that matter, what's the point of lecturing people about it at all? People know what's at stake just as well as you do.

[winter is coming]

54. I have a problem with people regurgitating the same lectures over and over again,

as if they've just discovered a Wonderful Truth and everyone else is an ignorant peasant. I very much doubt the repetition changes anyone's opinion for the better.

[winter is coming]

137. If you have to demand of people why they're here, you don't "get it".

I'd be amazed if DU doesn't have more readers than active participants, and if that doesn't include a lot of people who only dip their toes into politics every now and then. The nonstop strident demands equivalent to "you're either for us or against us" are more likely to repel than attract casual voters. We need casual voters, and grabbing them by the throat and yelling at them is an abuse tactic, not a persuasion tactic. Potential voters are not captives. They can and will walk away from strong-arm tactics.

[trueblue2007]

52. AGREE ... Should she win the nomination, and some still can't get behind it, THEN WHY ARE YOU HERE

[frylock]

139. No, you are for promoting Democratic candidate.

[JDPriestly]

76. Great post!

[djean111]

7. Yes, I saw your little aside. You are pushing and gushing over Hillary.

[djean111]

16. Oh, then I must have missed the gushing over the qualifications of those other guys.

Hillary is not a fait accompli, and presenting her as such is really off-putting. Especially when many of us prefer other candidates. Didn't work last time.

[djean111]

22. Bwah! Expecting people to worship and obey the polls this early is futile.

"Is that better?" It is not like it was going to have any influence on me, I don't respond to silly scolding.

[sheshe2]

48. No she is not.

Read it again!

[DanTex]

11. There's never a bad time to emphasize the importance of electing Democrats.

Particularly when you have "progressives" boasting that they won't vote Democratic if the primary doesn't go their way, this is a very appropriate time to have this discussion.

[sheshe2]

49. Amazing isn't it Dan.

Progressives, that dis liberals daily are saying they will not vote if it is Hillary.

Progressives are willing to hand SCOTUS to the Repukes and they call themselves Progressive. Hmmm?

[George II]

27. As the OP said, or hinted, or implied...what option is there regardless of who wins our primaries?

If it's Clinton, fine.

If it's Sanders, fine.

If it's O'Malley, fine.

If it's Biden, fine.

Will you pledge your loyalty to Cruz, Bush, Walker, Christie, or whoever wins THEIR nomination.

There's no "demand", just common sense. Is their best even close to our worst?

[whatchamacallit]

3. As I don't agree with your gushing assessment of the current frontrunner

the best option is to work hard to make sure 'current' becomes 'previous'.

[whatchamacallit]

8. I support Bernie Sanders n/t

[whatchamacallit]

17. If unfortunate circumstances force me to vote for her

she'll get my inconsequential Califonia vote.

[sgtbenobo]

73. Inconsequential?

Whatchamacallit. Think about this for a second. If Bernie were to turn up in let's say.... "Oxnard." There is not a hall in town that could contain his supporters. California is a sleeping giant.

This is not a campaign. It is a movement.

[restorefreedom]

9. i think the best odds of that

is to keep the primary focused on the issues, have the candidates (and their spokespeople) keep it civil, and to try and crush the living crap out of any arguments of the gop. if that happens, maybe there will be some unity in the general.

[restorefreedom]

21. part of me will be very glad

when the primary is done

but i swear if there is another bush in the general i am gonna vomit

[restorefreedom]

132. better not to even think it. nt

[quickesst]

29. I agree...

.......but I might put it a little differently. I might have said something like this. Whoever becomes the democratic nominee, be it Sanders, Clinton, or a duck in a pond, if I did not not vote for said nominee, and helped give it to a scumbag, I wouldn't want to be around to explain to my grandchildren that their world is so screwed up partly because I, and many more like me decided that our pride was more important than their future. The imaginary "coercion", the imaginary "bullying", and the imaginary "fealty pledge" is a childish concoction built out of a fear that one might not get to be the king or queen of the of the super liberal hill when all is said and done. Do whatever floats your boat, but if this is you, and I suspect there are more than a few, you should not be here now or in the future. That's pretty close to what I probably would have said.
GO BERNIE, GO HILLARY, GO DUCK IN A POND!!! As long as there is a D beside your name in the voting booth. I simply don't see what's so hard about it.

[quickesst]

133. Hey KMOD...

At times, I just ignore the stop or yield sign between my brain and my mouth. It shouldn't take that much to get the message across. Two words written by George II should be quite enough. "Common sense" I keep hearing "It's still the primary season, why bring up the GE at all?" I'll tell you why. It's because some people here cannot imagine a scenario where Bernie supporters, and Hillary supporters can come together in common cause. That is the power of hatred, and make no mistake about it, it is hatred. Oh man, there I go again. Hope a cop didn't see that!

[freshwest]

41. Agreed. We will go down as fools if we allow the GOP the WH, SCOTUS, etc.(VIDEO)

I doubt they will forgive us anymore than the Senator from Oklahoma lobbing a snowball saying climate change is a hoax for his corporate masters.

That is, if they survive to be able to think about the world. The world the GOP is building reminds me of this song. They want a brutish life for our descendents:

[okasha]

43. I wish I could rec this post!

[Cha]

61. "I wouldn't want to be around to explain to my grandchildren that their world is so screwed up

partly because I, and many more like me decided that our pride was more important than their future."

Well Done, quickest!

[AOR]

31. Some people happen to believe...

that the continued downward spiral of the majority of the working class is not a game. Some people happen to believe that 50 percent of the people in this country existing on less than $27,000 a year is not a game. Some people happen to think that neither Hillary Clinton nor any Republican candidate will stop that downward spiral. It's unlikely Sanders can either Capitalism such as it is, but at least Sanders will bring issues that raise class consciousness to the table to rally around. Issues that have deep organizational value for grassroots and labor organizers. The Democratic Party apparatus are making a very serious mistake if they underestimate the amount of utterly pissed off workers on the ground and Sander's appeal to struggling workers of all stripes. Sanders can and will tap into that anger in ever increasing numbers. Whether its enough remains to be seen.

Change the I - in the below statement - to we and you will understand the dynamic on the ground at this point in history. Only those who live in comfortable bubbles don't understand the anger and frustration. They are a minority that is shrinking rapidly as Capitalism continues its destruction of the struggling working people and the poor. The people are tired of lip-service and the lesser of two evils KMOD. Regardless of what anybody thinks of John Edwards there are indeed Two Americas and the divide worsens which each passing year.

“I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who does absolutely nothing that is useful to amass a fortune of hundreds of millions of dollars, while millions of men and women who work all the days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched existence.”

--Eugene Debs

[AOR]

45. Local politics are dominated...

by the 1% and the very people who live in the bubbles I described. That needs to change because the voices of the struggling, the disengaged, and the dispossessed are not being heard. On the rare occasions that they are... they are quickly drowned out by the voices of privilege, means, and capital. That is a story for another day.

[irisblue]

33. Alert Results

You have two choices.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251450925

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Loyalty oaths are being demanded long before primaries or even the debates are underway. It's insulting and demeaning to everyone.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:04 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Well stated. No mention of "loyalty oaths".
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: geez, leave
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I hate loyalty oath threads and think this post is counterproductive but I don't see a violation of the rules.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no insults or disruptive content about the post. I don't have to agree with the content of the post, but this alert is crap.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Loyalthy oaths for what? Voting for a democrat instead of a republican? I can get behind that. This is a childish alert.

[irisblue]

44. I was Juror # 3.

This is my first primary season on DU. This isn't passionate behavior, it's bilious and saddening to read so many mean & nasty comments between Dems.

[Cha]

74. Mahalo for the results, irisblue..

[sheshe2]

50. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, they truly do not wish to here what we have to say.

[Scootaloo]

57. Well, we've already heard it all

Seriously, V_R beat KMOD to this punchline like, a year and a half ago. And beat it he did, damn near every day, for months and months and months.

say something new. Be surprising.

[Scootaloo]

77. I have been seeing this same appeal for going on two years now, KMOD.

I don't know if you think you're being original or insightful, but no, others have beat you to the punch by quite a bit, and I'm damn certain you've seen them do it.

save the appeals to party loyalty for after the convention, when it'll be relevant, instead of just obnoxious.

[Scootaloo]

84. You're making your assumptions again, KMOD.

And I do not need to be sermonized about party loyalty from someone with a clinton avatar. I remember 2008 quite well, thank you.

[SunSeeker]

78. Since when is that an alertable offense? nt

[Scootaloo]

79. Far as I can tell, people can alert on whatever the heck they want

evidently some take this option to hart and go all-out with it, I guess? Whether it gets hidden or not is the telling part, innit?

[Scootaloo]

86. Internet messageboards aren't exactly serious business.

[stevil]

128. Thank you

[SunSeeker]

95. It's not OK to alert on "whatever you want."

Neither is alert stalking.

[Scootaloo]

109. Tell me about it. i have some devoted fans of my own.

it's laughable to see how many 0-7's my devotees rack up.

seems like more of a concern for those goofballs faceplanting their alert button, than for hte people they're haunting.

[SunSeeker]

111. Getting alerted on silences people, even if their posts aren't hidden.

That may not concern you but it concerns me.

[Cha]

67. "I see no insults or disruptive content about the post. I don't have to agree with the content of

the post, but this alert is crap."

to Juror #6, KMOD! #7, too!

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Loyalty oaths for what? Voting for a democrat instead of a republican? I can get behind that. This is a childish alert

[Jim Lane]

138. My apologies for not helping out

I was called to this jury. I had gotten as far as writing that the alerted post didn't demand a loyalty oath far in advance, but merely gave an argument about how to vote. I was going to add that even if the post had demanded a loyalty oath, that wouldn't be a TOS violation. A DUer who's not one of the admins can't "demand" anything in any enforceable sense. A post like "I insist that everyone on this board unconditionally promise right now to vote for the Democratic Party's nominee" would be pretty silly but not a hide.

I was going to say all that. Then I fell asleep. Sorry, but I've been burning the candle at both ends lately.

[Cha]

64. Oh wah wah wah.. the alert Police Whining a-gain.

[tularetom]

34. I will not vote against the Democratic presidential nominee in the 2016 presidential election

That good enough for ya?

[bobbobbins01]

38. I'll be voting for the Democratic candidate in the general election.

And I'll be doing my damnedest to make sure it is Bernie Sanders, otherwise it is going to be a very unenthusiastic vote.

[Aerows]

39. I'm with the poster above

that said they will vomit if there is another Bush in the race. Duck in a pond sounds plenty viable as a candidate if I have to vote against another freaking Bush ICK!

[morningfog]

40. The question really only matters for the DUers in swing states.

Many live in states that run no risk of going repub or no chance of going Dem. Others here aren't even citizens.

BTW, welcome back.

[Comrade Grumpy]

53. I reserve the right to vote for whomever I chose.

[Scootaloo]

55. Thank you sir. Your finger-waggling done did me good. Can't wait for tomorrow's scolding.

[Scootaloo]

62. where did I ever say I don't?

I'm just kind of sick of seeing self-righteous schmucks with Clinton avatars - of all the fucking people in the world - demanding "loyalty." can't you guys at least stow it for the convention or something?

[Scootaloo]

75. I'm annoyed by the obnoxiousness of it

It comes from seeing the same demands every day, for months and months, for nearly a two-year span.

Give it a rest.

[Scootaloo]

88. Like whom?

You have someone in mind. Some post from this person. Why not post TO THEM, in THAT THREAD, in response to THAT post, instead of getting on your soap-box and giving us all a tired-ass self-righteous pontification and finger-waggling?

[Scootaloo]

98. Well, since you decided to make it so, why shouldn't I?

Such as your accusation - and yeah, that's what it is - that I don't support Democrats, based on the fact I'm telling you your OP is repetitive and annoying. I don't agree with KMOD, so I must be "disloyal."

If you want to run an inquisition for disloyalty to the party, you ought to start closer to home. As i said, many of us remember 2008 quite well. Maybe revisit the tail end of that campaign, see where it leads you.

[Scootaloo]

105. I don't support democrats? That's news to me.

Where do you derive this assumption from, KMOD? You seem to like to throw it at people who criticize you. seems like it's less about the party and more about your own insecurities.

[Scootaloo]

110. oooh, you didn't phrase it as a question. No points for you.

it doesn't take a high reading level to correctly interpret this:

You don't support Democrats, fine!

or this:

Look, I really don't care if you aren't a democratic voter, I'm certain we'll do just fine without your vote, I'm just curious as to why you feel the need to post here if you don't like or support Democrats?

or this:

I'm simply asking why people who don't support Democrats feel the need to post here?

You're not being especially subtle.

[Scootaloo]

118. Then why did you say this:

You seem to read a lot into things that aren't there.

You need to figure out what it is you're doing, and what you're trying to accomplish.

[Scootaloo]

125. It's simple sure. it's also completely misdirected.

This seems to be the part you struggle with.

[artislife]

59. I would implore H's supporters

To have her sever ties with Monsanto
To denounce TPP and promise to halt any other such crap that will cause:
workers to lose
the environment to lose
the money to be siphoned out of local communities
to fight for student dept restructuring
to let go of her Wall Street ties
to get oil companies out of the Arctic and the oceans
Tell Nestle that they cannot have California's or British Columbia's water
To take on Police Brutality


As a Latina, she has a good standing in our community. I don't think she thinks we are lower class citizens like Trump and 95% of republicans and some democrats do.

But as Jenny Horne said....It is not about me (sic)-----it is about all of us. The people under 40years old have a very scary future. And dangling the supreme court in front of their faces is not enough. If there is no clean water, if there is no debt relief, if there are no bees....who really cares if the court is more conservative...it will be too late. The chances of there being a civilized country is dimming by the day.

The oceans are warming, we are killing off whole species and polar caps are falling.

The time is NOW.


So this is my answer to where my priorities are. This

This is my priority.

[artislife]

65. Not enough for me.

And I am trying not to hear you say " That's nice," because it doesn't play well in my head.

[artislife]

69. I thought you were asking my priorities...my bad.

[Scootaloo]

81. I don't think KMOD really wants to know what you think.

I could theorize on why that is, but I think you answered it in your initial post...

[artislife]

87. I concur

This planet is an amazing host. But we have trashed it in one century. And TPTB don't care. You can't drink profits.



The flippancy of remarks, not just this thread but everywhere...just beats down on my soul. I live in a place that has water, has organic farms, has a state government that for the most part has protected it. I couldn't move anywhere else in this country. Fracking, oil spills, grey sludge in the water tables....

And Washington State will collapse as well. We have radiation at our shores, god knows what else. It makes me very sad.

[Scootaloo]

92. When you're devoted to a theology that money is all that matters, it's what happens.

and yes it very much IS a theology.

I hear you on all of that. Unfortunately I don't share the optimism you seem to. i don't think that the environmental state of hte world can be turned around, even if our "people in charge" wanted to do so. It's too far gone. Not to say we shouldn't try - the effort would still ahve impact, somewhere down the road... but that there's no real chance of averting it all. It's really just a question of if we're going for "Road Warrior" or "Fury Road" as the end game.

And yes, measuring environmental catastrophe on a scale of mad max movies IS how scientists do it. I've seen the charts. Global extinction comes at "Beyond Thunderdome, after he finds those fucking kids"

[artislife]

99. I am not disagreeing about the state of things

One thing that gives me hope.

The earth will balance herself out. May take eons and we will be long gone, but she will renew.

[artislife]

97. I have voted for

Patty Murray from the start
Maria Cantwell when she ran for Washington State House of Representatives and when she ran represent us in Washington DC
I voted for Bill twice
and Obama twice
I voted for Christine Gregoire to be the Governor of this state and Jay Inslee

Guess what? They all have D's by their names

I will probably vote for my local dems because they are real dems. I have a hard time with H
I want Bernie. I think I could vote for O"Malley.

H has a year to sound sincere to me.* that is if she wins the nom.
I haven't forgotten the two weeks of dog whistles in the Super Tuesday run up in 2008.

I vote in every election. I don't always vote on every line. If I don't know them well enough, or the issue doesn't make sense, I don't just mark it to mark it.


I am just one of the many that the party is losing..I was here. I voted for D's up and down because they had to be better, right? Well..I just am not convinced anymore.

[artislife]

113. Read your words out loud.

I don't know if it sounds patronizing when you say it out loud to yourself , but the choice phrases of "That's nice" and the use of "well" and " I guess" " at least" don't convince me of any sincerity.

And maybe that is not what you are aiming to do.

But this exchange has not helped me to be nudged into the one choice out of the two you offer. It kind of sounds like an exasperated parent saying "Get in the car. Get in the car. You better get in the car, now." with all the patience and emotion that usually accompanies such an exchange.

And with that I understand that we will not reach a happy place for us both tonight. Perhaps in a couple of months, as things shake out we will be able to come to a place where we both are happy. Miracles are all around us.

[artislife]

120. Last post I promise...:)

It isn't what, it is how.

And I do support Democrats...as I showed. I just don't support all Democrats because they are Democrats. I am lucky that my Democrats are pretty inline with what I think is a real Democratic platform.

Though, I am deeply saddened by Patty's and Maria's votes on the TPP.

I wish you the best, too. I mean that.

This is primary season and we all get caught up with starry eyes and passion filled hearts, wanting our ideals to win out.

[Scootaloo]

101. So open that it is said nowhere in her posts

Seems another case where arguing with KMOD = "disloyalty."

[Scootaloo]

107. Well, so far you've accused myself and artislife of disloyalty

Sight unseen, no evidence at hand, except that we criticize your silly OP.

Again. Address the posters who are spurring such great concern in you. if you need to invent them, you're being pointless.

[Scootaloo]

119. Thing is, I support democrats. So you're addressing the wrong person.

Same with artislife. No, you simply assume that being critical of you means we're not democrats. And you certainly weren't addressing either of us when you copy-pasted an posted your OP. That is, you are inventing people to direct your nonsense at.

[SunSeeker]

70. K & R

[oasis]

71. GOP fashioned Supreme Court rulings for decades to come. (eom)

[Cha]

80. "This is not a freaking game. The White House, the Supreme Court, and our civil rights are at stake"

Fact.

Got to mention our very existence with our Environment, too, KMOD.

We had some posters on here after the midterm elections bragging about not voting.. showing off they didn't have a clue about our Environment, SCOTUS, Civil Rights, and everything that is near and dear to our hearts.

It was all about them and stomping their little clueless feet.

Thank you, KMOD~ Our job is GOTV!

[HooptieWagon]

91. Oooo, a loyalty oath.

How quaint.

[akbacchus_BC]

94. Why only two choices? A country with over 300 million people has only two choices!

That is pathetic. Democrats or rethuglicans! This is not normal in a democratic society - where are the liberals and the progressives and even the Green party?

[djean111]

129. Wasserman-Schultz is not letting anyone but Third Wayer types get past local.

We can see that here in Florida. That is reality. That argument does not work any more.

"It won't happen overnight. It takes time."

What, we have to wait until Wassermann and her buddies retire? That is so lame, when we can see how things are done in Florida. Right now Wasserman is pushing a guy who was a Republican until 2011. He is a young New Democrat Coalition guy. Wassermann and Nelson will not support liberals, they support guys like this. Liberals cannot make it past them to national office. Florida has been a purple-to-red state for a very long time, and Wasserman gets rewarded, and this is how the head of the DNC runs thing nationwide.

[AtomicKitten]

104. I choose Bernie Sanders. <nt>

[Ichingcarpenter]

115. You have two choices

[awake]

130. Bill Cliton was elected because there were 3 choices

And this year Trump has not said that he would not run as a third party if he does not get get the nomination. So we do not know what our choices will be in a year, for now let's all work on electing our own favorite candidate to be the Democratic Candidate.

[Gothmog]

131. I will support the Democratic Nominee no matter what

During the primary process, we can all agree to disagree but come the general election, the choices are very limited.

[polichick]

134. You better believe it's "a freaking game" to the powerful who...

have gamed the system and purchased the government - that's why it's not as simple as voting for "their" team or "our" team. Some on "our" team are players in that freaking game.

[99Forever]

135. Nonsense.

There are multiple options, you just don't like that there are.

Too bad for you.

[LWolf]

136. Actually, right now, I have about 5 choices,

and I've made mine.

This isn't the General Election. I'll be looking at my choices after the Democratic Convention, when the primary campaigns have concluded.

I can guarantee you that there will be more than two choices on my ballot when the time comes. I'm not making any threats about the GE; neither am I taking any loyalty oaths. I'm simply working to nominate a candidate that will make my choice easy in the GE.

Why are there multiple rants about party loyalty in the GE on the front page of the PRIMARY forum? It appears to be a desperate, frustrated attempt to distract from the fact that the presumptive nominee is losing ground, and may not be crowned after all, by attacking those who are supporting someone else.

If HRC wins the nomination, most Democrats will vote for her. The independents, 3rd party voters, and Rs that will vote for Sanders may not. Probably will not. I doubt too many of them are reading lectures, rants, scoldings, and accusations of disloyalty here at DU, though.