Clinton supporters: Where do you stand on the TPP and Glass-Steagall?

[OnlyBernieBurnsBush]

Do you stand with Bernie or do you stand with the Republicans?

[whatchamacallit]

1. They stand wherever Hillary stands

No really.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Not even in my top ten of issues./nt

[whatchamacallit]

4. Interesting

What are your top 5?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Immigration reform, health care , increased minimum wage, paid family leave, protecting Soc Sec.

nt

[whatchamacallit]

11. You are aware that the TPP may negatively impact all of those

Right?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I don't believe they are contingent on TPP

I am not trying to be obscurantist but if there are peer reviewed studies that indicate TPP will usher in the parade of horrible its detractors suggest I could be persuaded.

[whatchamacallit]

16. Well congressional democrats thought so

I guess they got it wrong and Obama and the Republican Party got it right.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I don't march lock step behind anybody.

If there are peer reviewed studies that suggest TPP will precipitate the abyss I might re-examine my ambivalent attitude toward it.

[whatchamacallit]

22. Au contraire, I think you do

And what peers do you want to review it? Aren't lawmakers in congress "peery" enough?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. A study by independent economists.

Just because a lot of people oppose or support something doesn't it make it good or bad.

[whatchamacallit]

26. So, by your reasoning...

The quality of laws drafted and passed by congress can't be ascertained until a "peer review". What do we need congress for? Economists disagree btw, so... weird.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Opposing TPP and supporting the reinstatement of Glass Steagall are not hills I would die for.

Bookmark this post...


Democratic primary voters won't be willing to die for them either.

[whatchamacallit]

28. Well that may be

your bad judgement, but it's pretty presumptuous to assume all democrats feel the same.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Obsessing about TPP and Glass Stegall are primarily upper middle class class conceits

Obsessing about TPP and Glass Stegall are primarily upper middle class class conceits and I am confident my observation will be proven correct in the fullness of time...Plebeians are interested in plebeian things.

[whatchamacallit]

34. Wow...

That's some mighty bullshit right there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. You seem upset...No need to go ad hominem on me...

I won't go ad hominem in return but since you used a colloquialism I will use one...Most folks couldn't give a rat's ass about TPP and Glass Steagall and that will be evident in the primaries. It is the kind of esoteric issue that gets upper middle income folks and intellectuals or those that fancy themselves as such all aflutter. The more important an issue is on DU, with the rare exception, the less important it is to everybody else.

[whatchamacallit]

51. I'm sorry, but again

your conclusions are unsubstantiated crap. Starting with presuming to speak for most folks, and continuing through your bogus assumptions about the demographic the TPP effects, and profiling of the people who care. Unless you can provide some backing for your claims, I'm done.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Res ipsa loquitur

Starting with presuming to speak for most folks, and continuing through your bogus assumptions about the demographic the TPP effects, and profiling of the people who care. Unless you can provide some backing for your claims, I,m done:

Res ipsa loquitur:







http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/23/americans-favor-tpp-but-less-than-other-countries-do/

[Hoyt]

55. That'll make some heads explode.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. D s are more likely to support it than Rs and Millennials are more likely to support it ...

Ds are more likely to support it than Rs and Millennials are more likely to support it than everybody...

[Hoyt]

66. Good to see some people -- a surprising number by that poll -- realize the world is

changing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Precisely, millennial support is 65% -17%

The world is changing...


And i thought we had a healthy respect for world opinion:






it seems the poorer the nation the higher the support

[whatchamacallit]

58. Well I guess you think you got me

with a single poll. Maybe it's an accurate reflection of a moment in time, maybe it's not. Polls are inaccurate, times change, people learn and evolve... We'll see if holds. Pretty funny Mr/Miss/Mrs Peer Review places so much faith in it. Good luck.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. That poll is peer reviewed

http://www.ncpp.org/

[whatchamacallit]

68. Lol. Maybe the poll methodology was sound

but the Americans polled aren't expert peers when it comes to evaluating the worthiness of the TPP.

[aspirant]

120. Unverifiable again

Level 3 Disclosure: Member organizations are strongly encouraged to:

Release raw datasets (ASCII, SPSS, CSV format) for any publicly released survey results (with telephone numbers or other identifying personal information removed)

If you can't call and verify the actual people polled it's worthless.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. Have you reached the point of ascension again/yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6895432

[aspirant]

134. Have you resolved your inner violence issues?

In the discussion thread: For SHAME, Bernie would not approve! [View all]

Response to Cosmic Kitten (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:23 AM
your inner violence issues
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (56,029 posts)
46. No...Because I subscribe to Malcolm X's axiom





Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

-Malcolm X

[DemocratSinceBirth]

137. If I was in the Audubon Ballroom I would have taken the bullets that killed Malcolm

I am sorry you have made it your raison d'etre to belittle his legacy.

[aspirant]

145. It's not about him, it's about your issues

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. What issues...I treat others with the same respect or disrespect they show me.

But I am glad you seem to be walking back your libelous comments about Malcolm X:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6895432



That is progress, am I right?

[aspirant]

151. "I subscribe to Malcolm X's axiom"

Hero worship, self worth and inner violence issues, you must face these



In the discussion thread: For SHAME, Bernie would not approve!



Response to Cosmic Kitten (Reply #21)


Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:23 AM
your inner violence issues
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (56,029 posts)
46. No...Because I subscribe to Malcolm X's axiom





Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

-Malcolm X

[DemocratSinceBirth]

152. Your attacks on my character don't bother me. But your dog whistle attacks on Malcolm X do

Your attacks on my character don't bother me. But your dog whistle attacks on Malcolm X do

aspirant This message was hidden by Jury decision. Hide
192. Malcolm X just puts them in their grave

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6895432

Pretty sad to question my self worth, your slip is showing.

Hero worship, self worth and inner violence issues, you must eace (Sp) these
-aspirant

[aspirant]

153. Dog whistles are so high pitched they can only be heard by dogs

So hero worship and inner violence you admit, that's the first step

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Let's disentangle all this one by one

Dog whistles are so high pitched they can only be heard by dogs

It's a metaphor:

In politics, to make an innocuous statement which is designed to trigger previously indoctrinated bigotry & hatred without being recognized by outsiders for bigotry or hateful speech.

So hero worship you admit...

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." -

- Isaac Newton

So inner violence you admit,

You lack the requisite moral standing to pass judgment on me.

[aspirant]

160. Let's see

A dog whistle in reality is made for and actually only heard by dogs

Hero worship, do you have a list of heros? It is time to become your own hero and stand on your own 2 feet.

Inner violence, once you recognize it you can work on it

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. Redux

A dog whistle in reality is made for and actually only heard by dogs

Dog-whistle politics is political messaging employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has an additional, different or more specific resonance for a targeted subgroup. The phrase is used only as a pejorative, because of the inherently deceptive nature of the practice and because the dog-whistle messages are frequently themselves distasteful, for example by empathising with racist or revolutionary attitudes. The analogy is to a dog whistle, whose high-frequency whistle is heard by dogs but inaudible to humans.

Hero worship, do you have a list of heros?

[

The martyred Kennedy brothers, Dr. King, and Muhammad Ali

It is time to become your own hero and stand on your own 2 feet.

What is there about me that makes you hate me so much as to rob me of my personhood?

Inner violence, once you recognize it you can work on it

You do know hateful rhetoric is a form of verbal violence.

[aspirant]

165. Whistling can make you happy

Hero worship; Standing on your own 2 feet makes you your own person

Obsession with "hate", "hateful" do you think this has a connection to inner violence?


DemocratSinceBirth (56,042 posts)
137. If I was in the Audubon Ballroom I would have taken the bullets that killed Malcolm

I am sorry you have made it your raison d'etre to belittle his legacy.


Self worth, Why do you think his life is more important than yours

[DemocratSinceBirth]

187. "Self worth, Why do you think his life is more important than yours."

"Self worth, Why do you think his life is more important than yours."

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

-John 15:13

Malcolm represented the hopes, the dreams, the aspirations, of people of color in the United States but of the whole world. If I was to die tomorrow I would be with the Father and get my treasure in Heaven. Malcolm could have done so much for the people still here.

[aspirant]

199. You're not Malcolm, stop living in the past

and live your life now

[DemocratSinceBirth]

200. Reading must not be your forte. I was obviously responding as if I was his contemporary.

eom

[aspirant]

203. "contemporary" = of the same age, living in the same period of time

He was a generation ahead of you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

205. Precisely and unfortunately.

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. You and your cohorts who have verbally bullied me in this thread...

You and your cohorts who have verbally bullied and disrespected me in this thread have convinced me that those who think like me are not looked at as human beings here and are unwanted on this board. But before I leave, the battle will end on my terms, on that I would literally give my life.

A dog whistle in reality is made for and actually only heard by dogs

We are playing word games



Dog whistle politics usually refers to the use of certain code words or phrases that are designed to be understood by only a small section of the populace. Generally speaking, these are phrases that have special meaning to that subsection entirely independent of its meaning to others, and represent a particularly insidious use of loaded language.
The term alludes to the sound of a dog whistle, which can only be heard by the intended audience (the dog). In theory at least, dog whistle terms are only noticed and understood by the people they are intended for.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics

Hero worship, do you have a list of heros? It is time to become your own hero and stand on your own 2 feet

Asked and answered.

My heroes are the martyred Kennedy brothers , Dr. King and Muhammad Ali. The fact you suggest they are unworthy of great respect says more about you than it can ever say about me. Do I worship them in the way one would worship a deity, no. Do I believe they lived lives worthy of emulation and praise, of that i would give my life.

Inner violence, once you recognize it you can work on it

If you believe responding in kind to verbal and physical assaults are indicative of "inner violence" there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.





Your turn. We can do to Jesus calls me home.

[aspirant]

188. The victim card

"but before I leave" When will you be leaving?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

189. After your concession, as long as it takes.

The victim card

Your slip is showing. Can "uppity" be far behind?

[aspirant]

191. So you're not leaving,

now your words are meaningless too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

195. Well, that's a non sequitur.

You attacked me, I joined the battle, and won't leave until it is over.

[aspirant]

206. Is everything in your life a battle?

That inner violence is returning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

207. My life is a battle against ignorance which racism is a function of.

Is everything in your life a battle?

My life is a battle against willful and unwillful ignorance which racism is a function of.

"People know about the Klan and the overt racism, but the killing of one’s soul little by little, day after day, is a lot worse than someone coming in your house and lynching you."

-Samuel L. Jackson

[aspirant]

213. Why are you always quoting people,

speak for yourself or do they do it better for you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

215. Racism is a pestilence upon our great land that needs to be exterminated

Why are you always quoting people,speak for yourself or do they do it better for you.

"Racism is a pestilence upon our great land that needs to be exterminated before it poisons us all."

-DemocratSinceBirth

Is that better?

Do you agree with the sentiments I expressed and if you don't, why not?


Thank you in advance.

[aspirant]

217. Off-topic

Start your own OP on race if you want discussion

[1StrongBlackMan]

192. Why do you persist? ...

your purpose in, and contribution to, this thread couldn't be more clear ... {edited upon reflection} (perhaps, mutual mastur) BAITING!

[aspirant]

194. "persist"

nobody is twisting your arm to post

[DemocratSinceBirth]

198. Abraham Lincoln done freed him and he be free to speak his mind.

Abraham Lincoln done freed him and a whole bunch of other black folks and he be free to speak his mind.

[aspirant]

201. Is there 2 of you inside you?

This must be a multi-personality disorder for you to be speaking this way. You definitely need help.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

202. "You definitely need help."

"You definitely need help."

Do you believe racism should be added to the DSM V?


Thank you in advance.

[aspirant]

208. Ask that second person inside of you.

the answer lies there

[DemocratSinceBirth]

211. There is only one of me.

Do you believe racism is a mental disease and if the answer is yes how do you think we should go about eradicating it and if you don't think it is, why not?

Instead of going off on tangents may we please confine ourselves to a discussion of racism and how we can banish it from the earth.


Thank you in advance.

[aspirant]

216. Topic of this thread is TPP and Glass-Steagall

I responded to an unverifiable poll you posted and off you went into a TIZZY because you can't take any criticism.

Grow Up

[DemocratSinceBirth]

218. You have made several posts that include....

You have made several posts that include the most heinous and libelous attacks on my character which reached its apex with this:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6895432


and now you are accusing me of being in a "TIZZY".

Let's return to the high road ...We can debate the topic that you have alluded to a veritable myriad of times.

Topic

Racism is a pestilence upon our land that all people of good will need to work together to eradicate.

I will represent the affirmative position and you can represent the negative position.

Fair?

[aspirant]

219. No you can represent both in your own OP

[DemocratSinceBirth]

220. Well, the mark of a great intellect is to hold two mutually exclusive concepts in one's mind...

Well, the mark of a great intellect is to be able to hold two mutually exclusive concepts in one's mind at the same time and believe both to be true but alas my intellect is just not that great.

[aspirant]

221. Did Jesus hold both good and bad in his mind and

"believe both to be true"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

222. It seems that way

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, daughter against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. "

-Matthew 10 34-36

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

-Matthew 5:39

Our conversation is becoming extraordinarily discursive. May we please impose some discipline on our tete a tete. Thank you in advance.

We can discuss racism or we can discuss Christianity but I prefer not to conflate the two.


Thank you in advance.

[aspirant]

225. What did Jesus and Buddha say about this?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

229. I am not conversant enough with Buddhism to comment.

eom

[okasha]

238. I have no idea what you "aspire" to,

but whatever it is you're in free fall.

Your attempts to provoke an alertable response are simply grotesque.

[1StrongBlackMan]

204. Yes ...

Persist: /pərˈsist/


verb

continue firmly or obstinately in an opinion or a course of action in spite of difficulty, opposition, or failure.

You have added nothing to this thread; but, to poke at a fellow DUer.

Stop it

[aspirant]

209. That would be good advice to your buddy

[1StrongBlackMan]

210. Okay. n/t

[George II]

234. Why drag in an irrelevant post from another discussion? Point other than to attack?

[aspirant]

235. So post#128 was an attack too, right?

[1StrongBlackMan]

178. A summary of this sub-thread ...

So ...



"That's no fair! I want to be right! I want to be right!"

And, for the observer:

[PatrickforO]

80. This is sad.

I know how ignorant Americans are, so it is not surprising. Same with Glass-Steagall.

But a question: do you think if Americans were actually educated on these two things, that would be any different? Like, if people knew the truth?

[Recursion]

132. Yes, in particular I think support on DU would go up if that happened

My experience on DU suggests that most opponents of the TPP seem to think it involves China or India (when it's actually pretty clearly a deliberate attempt to marginalize them), or that Glass-Steagall prevented banks from putting your deposits in the stock markets. (And let's not even get into how many DUers seem to think candidates can take money from Super PACs, or how few DUers seemed to understand that Keystone XL was a shortening of an existing pipeline.)

If DUers learned more about those issues I do think their positions would change, in many cases.

[1StrongBlackMan]

179. +1 ...

But it seems DU is proud of its sophomoric state.

[1StrongBlackMan]

174. Oops! ...

Now watch out for the narrowed goal post ...

[GeorgeGist]

224. bullshit poll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TPP is top secret.

[whathehell]

65. "most folks couldn't give a rat's ass about TPP and Glass-Steagall"

That's because most folks are ignorant as hell.

We generally expect a bit better on DU.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. I refuse to hold myself above my fellow plebeians.

That's because most folks are ignorant as hell.

We generally expect a bit better on DU.

I refuse to hold myself above my fellow plebeians.

[whathehell]

84. Your obvious ignorance suggests as much.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. I wear your invective like a medal.

Muah

[whathehell]

89. like your ignorance

"muah'

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. If I respected you or your opinions your epithets might hurt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. That left a mark./nt

[whathehell]

95. Respect from.the Ignorant and Unread is not on my goal list.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. And engaging in conversation with someone with whom the only thing I wish to disregard more ...

And engaging in conversation with someone with whom the only thing I wish to disregard more is my one waste but here we are.

[whathehell]

101. Huh?

Try using grammar. It helps.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. What part of

What part of the only thing I wish to disregard more than you is my own waste don't you understand?

[whathehell]

108. Gee, If I'm so unimportant, why do you keep sending me Personal.Mesages, LOL?

Not interested...Now you're on my I list.

Bye.

[SusanCalvin]

131. It's not esoteric, IMHO.

The big deal about it to me is that it puts corporate tribunals over elected governments. Corporate power is, again IMHO, the root of our present troubles.

[1StrongBlackMan]

173. LOL ... +1 ...

For the whole response ... especially this observation of truth:

The more important an issue is on DU, with the rare exception, the less important it is to everybody else.

And will raise you: The more passionate DU's favor or opposition to this administration's position on the topic; the more likely DU is proved incorrect, on that topic.

[whathehell]

60. So the nation's labor unions are composed primarily of "upper middle class" people?

Every union in the country opposes it.

You really don't know anything about it, do you?

[whatchamacallit]

62. It's painfully obvious n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I stand with the two out of every three Democrats who support it

I stand with the two out of every three Democrats who support it and the three out of every four millennials who support it who are our nation's and party's future.

[whathehell]

73. But..but.I thought "most folks didn't give a rat's ass about it", lol?

Those numbers, sadly, reflect a knee jerk reaction to a "democratic" president's endorsement.

The fact is, virtually every democrat in the House and Senate opposed it, along with democratic constituencies

like Organized Labor and Environmental groups.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Whether they give a rat's ass or not they support it if asked with the emphasis on asked....

Since you seem to be arguing that it is a seminal issue among Democratic voters it's incumbent upon you to provide evidence for your assertion...


I will wait... I will tell you before your search that I have perused the data and it's far from a salient issue.

[whathehell]

86. But you said you didn't just "blindly follow", lol

Clearly, that's exactly what you do.

[Hoyt]

72. Non-government labor unions represent less than 3.5% of workers and

are grasping for anything they use as an issue to try to boost membership. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's the truth.

The 3% or so in unions for government employees aren't likely to be impacted directly by the TPP.

[whathehell]

82. After decades of off-shoring jobs, attacks by Republican Administrations & Corporate interests

What do you expect?

Every Government AND non- government union, along

with trade and environmental group opposes the TPP.

what you clearly don't know is that this will.affect ALL of us.

Do you like knowing what country your food comes.from? The terms of this corporate giveaway

will make that difficult if not impossible. Have you heard of

the Investment Dispute Resolution Courts?...Those will allow American legislation, our laws, to be

overturned by Multinational Companies if our laws threaten their FUTURE profits.

Educate yourself.

[Hoyt]

97. Yes, things like the ISDS have been in just about every trade agreement since 1959.

The ISDS won't overrule our laws. If we treat a corporation unfairly, under international law, we MIGHT have to pay compensation, but the laws won't change.

If you don't know where the food comes from, and that concerns you, don't buy it. There will be plenty of food that the country and area of origin will be easy to determine.

I've herard a a bunch of distortions of the TPP, that are untrue.

You'll be fine.

[whathehell]

100. "if you don't know where the food comes from.and that con Ernst you, don't eat it"

What an idiotic statement.


You're right, dear, I WILL be fine. It's the ignorant and the gullible that concern me.

[Hoyt]

103. Packers can label food, and they will. Just buy food with labels showing where

it originated. Simply assume anything without such labeling is from places consumers generally avoid, don't buy that.

You are making this too difficult.

[whathehell]

157. Yeah, sure..

Go back to sleep.

[Hoyt]

163. Simple isn't it. Life must be difficult for you, if you can't figure this challenge out.

[whathehell]

164. Not at all. Life must be difficult for you, if you if you think the TPP is just about eating.

[Hoyt]

167. Yoy gotta shoot down each hyperbolic conspiracy theory as it is presented.

[whathehell]

168. Um, I don't see

any "hyperbolic conspiracy theory" that needs to be shot down.

I think you need to learn more about it before dismissing it as such.

[SusanCalvin]

133. "The ISDS won't overrule our laws."

Since when?? Last I heard, treaties took precedence over everything.

[Hoyt]

141. You need to check your hearing, or read more. Check out some of the ISDS settlements here, in Europe

and elsewhere.

[SusanCalvin]

144. Well, you may be right

http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2013/11/13/can-treaties-override-the-constitution/

Although I am initially distrustful of the URL for obvious reasons. It was the best I could find offhand.

Would have been interested in links to the European settlements you mention. How about the Central American ones where governments were sued for tobacco warnings?

Nevertheless, I find your snark unproductive, and believe I remember you from elsewhere, so bye.

[Hoyt]

149. Governments were sued in SA and Australia, companies got nowhere. Supposedly, TPP

when/if finalized, will include provisions to thwart frivolous ISDS complaints.

Whatever, the dispute tribunals are under auspices of UB and WTO. If a company qualifies for aribitration, it gets to select an arbiter, the county selects one, and the third is selected by mutual agreement.

If the ISDS were so bad, would just about every country be signing agreements with the dispute mechanism? It's necessary to attract investment, which brings jobs and tax revenue for health care and other needs.

I do agree abuses are possible, but they are not as common as some folks think.

[MannyGoldstein]

112. It's disgusting and degrading to call someone "Plebian"

when the little people should rightfully be called Proles.

Little people, little thoughts, easly led - as you clearly understand.

Regards,

TWM

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. I am proudly plebeian, a prole, a commoner, a member of the underclass./nt

[MannyGoldstein]

116. Well, a big "thank you!" from me

for allowing my posse to steal so much from you over the past 35 years. Thanks to people like you, my dog's sleeping pillow has a solid-gold base and is woven of platinum threads, stuffed with Tuscan truffles. In every one of my houses.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

119. I hold nobody in contempt nor attribute responsibility for my status to anybody.I actually enjoy it.

As the great philosopher Kris Kristofferson opined " freedom is just another word for having nothing more to lose."

[artislife]

155. Glass Stegall is one of the main reasons for the real estate bubble

All those middle class people losing their homes, only to have those homes bought up by investors, national and foreign.

So what? shrug.

Well, now you have more people trying to rent....Rent goes up. Investors rent their places as high as they can. It isn't like owning a rental property and meeting a nice family and giving them a fair price. No, the property management companies don't meet the renter. They just do the background check. It is so impersonal.

Seattle's market recovered. Her people who are not in Tech or not Chinese are having a hard time finding affordable rents. They get pushed out, then the poorer neighborhoods get gentrified and where do the poor go?

I got myself a mother in law apartment and there is no way I am moving. Not unless the owner sells.

Which she should, she could make a mint. She gets 4 calls a month asking if that place is open...

One thing will trickle down and that is piss. You must own a home or you haven't moved in a long time, I am guessing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

156. I live in a 450 sq ft rent controlled apartment with my gf

You must own a home or you haven't moved in a long time, I am guessing.

I live in a 450 sq ft rent controlled apartment with my gf

[artislife]

158. Lucky you....rent controlled.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

159. It is probably fifteenth or sixteenth residence since I lost my home in 010./nt

[artislife]

161. Yes..so why don't you think Glass Stengall is important?

You are one of its victims.

[GeorgeGist]

223. There won't be any such studies prior to passage ...

and I think you're smart enough to know that.

[London Lover Man]

85. Interestingly enough, Clinton fails massively in "increased minimum wage"

as she recently punted the $15/hour question.

As for protecting Social Security...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/hillary-clinton-social-security-expansion

[840high]

111. Good fins. Thank you.

[elleng]

21. Glass Steagall isn't?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Nope

Immigration reform, health care , increased minimum wage, paid family leave, protecting Soc Sec. opposing turning Medicare into a voucher program, opposing turning Medicaid into bloc grants, glbtq rights, SCOTUS picks, criminal justice reform, decriminalization of marijuana at the federal level, gun control, affirmative action, reproductive rights.


And given time I would likely change the order a bit but they are all much, much, much...more important to me than repealing TPP and reinstating Glass Steagall...

[SusanCalvin]

135. Corporations currently control us plebes.

They must be put back in their place, which is kept on a tight leash by we the people.

[Sancho]

30. Not in my issues list either...

1.) Voter rights, registration, gerrymandering so we can win purple state elections
2.) Path to citizenship as part of immigration reform (20 million working under the table)
3.) Union rights, collective bargaining (key to wages)
4.) Women's rights and salary transparency
5.) Supreme Court nominations, and Fed. Judges, US Attorney nominations
6.) Early childhood education, public education - reverse the race to privatize schools
7.) Improved relationships with international partners; no new wars
8.) Environmental concerns, renewable energy
9.) Infrastructure, high speed trains
10.) Reducing military spending
11.) Gun control

We don't know what will be in the final TPP, but it will be more noise than real impact on most Americans. G-S, even if passed (which is not possible), would not make much difference to banking in the current international environment. Since violations of current law are rarely prosecuted, making another regulation will have minimal effect. It may be possible to create better banking regulations working together with international governments, but it would be complex and take considerable time.

[cascadiance]

91. ISDS courts from TPP will muck up your issues list too...

item 8) - Transcanada will be able to bring back Keystone Oil pipeline to be put in place again if we don't want to pay a fortune for their "lost profits" on it, making Obama's earlier veto on it basically WORTHLESS (and I might argue that both he and his corporate friends probably knew it at the time he issued it). The same will happen for many other areas where companies complain about environmental regulations, etc. that affect their profits.

item 10) - If we reduce military spending, many defense companies will sue for lost profits too.

item 11) - Gun control. If we control sales of gun to any extent, many gun companies will sue for lost profits too.

item 6) - You think that the private schools won't sue for lost profits if we move back towards favoring funding of public schools over charter schools, etc.? Or that if we change the testing structure of "No child left behind" that the companies selling the testing software won't sue for lost profits?

TPP and other future similar huge corporate fiefdom bills that will be enabled passage through TPA are going to put a heavy cost on so many parts of our society, and screw us for the benefit of those at the top. You know that if we don't change laws and just accept these law suit penalties, that Republicans in congress will be pushing to cut back spending on other government programs to pay off these lawsuits too.

Without a filibuster that the TPA takes away, trade bills will be given "special treatment" that will not allow Democrats to obstruct them if they remain a senate majority in 2016 and if we have a Republican president, we can't do anything to stop them. How much "engineering" of just about any bill the Republicans put together will be done to make it a "trade bill" to let them do whatever they want?

THIS is the evil of these SECRET bills that most people don't know about and are told by both corporate Democrats and corporate Republicans to not pay atttention to

[whathehell]

96. +1000

[Sancho]

99. I don't believe those things will happen...

sorry, but my view of TPP is that some of it is good, some is bad; but none of that matters since it's not finished or passed yet.

Here's a couple discussions pro-con that are readily available.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2015-06-16/what-the-proposed-pacific-trade-deal-could-mean-for-u-s-jobs

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2015-02-03/understanding_the_trans_pacific_partnership_and_what_the_trade_deal_could_mean_for_the_u_s_economy

[SusanCalvin]

139. You don't believe the proles will be screwed?

Um, well, it was written by corporations.....

[Sancho]

143. It's not a signed treaty yet...

and I don't think your hypotheticals are likely.

The leaked parts of the TPP are controversial, but even the GOP won't allow extreme suits as you describe. If that happened, the trade agreement would be changed.

[SusanCalvin]

146. Wouldn't it be pretty to think so. nt

[Sancho]

150. So what are you going to do...

Obama seems to be proceeding, Congress has given him fast track.

Do you plan to protest? Impeach Obama?

As soon as the first lawsuit that you describe affects me, I'll be glad to join you.

[cascadiance]

184. If Republicans want to impeach him again, perhaps this time don't stand in their way...

... depending on who they would be allowed to be put in as Biden's VP, and as a horse trade, allow progressive Democrats to select at least one of many supreme court justices that should be impeached that Biden could replace.

Might be a good horse trade in effect getting rid of two Republicans out of high level positions in government.

It also would be a good challenge that the Republican base might frown on their party members if Republicans don't take up Democrats on such a horse trade since they've been conditioned to hate Obama so much. If they don't go through with such a deal, perhaps Democrats (progressive ones wanting to get rid of crap like the TPP) could replace them in 2016.

[SusanCalvin]

197. I'm not waiting until it affects me directly,

because I can see the writing on the wall. *And* having something affect me directly or not is not my standard of whether something is right or wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/big-tobacco-puts-countries-on-trial-as-concerns-over-ttip-deals-mount-9807478.html

[1StrongBlackMan]

182. In the same way that it was written by Labor Unions ...

both had input ... neither had access beyond submitting recommendations and language to the USTR. (per the AFL-CIO, in its complaining that it was not listened to enough)

I hate seeing people repeating mis/disinformation.

[cascadiance]

186. Sorry but that propaganda doesn't hold up! It was far more rigged for corporate America than unions

http://www.aflcio.org/Issues/Trade/Fast-Track-Legislation/Labor-s-So-Called-Seat-at-the-Table-at-TPP-Negotiations

Labor's So-Called "Seat at the Table" at TPP Negotiations
...

I’ve heard “labor” has a seat at the table and gets to see the TPP texts. Is this true?
No. Under U.S. law, there are several trade advisers—private citizens appointed by the President—who advise on trade policies. Of these advisers, the vast majority
(85% according to the Washington Post) represent businesses. About 5% of the advisers represent labor. The other 10% represent local and state government officials, academics, think tanks and non-governmental organizations. Labor advisers are allowed to review and advise on draft U.S. proposals—advice that the United States Trade Representative (USTR) can freely ignore. But we are locked out of the negotiating room and cannot see the actual negotiating texts, which combine the proposals from all 12 countries and evolve over time as negotiations progress. Nor can we share what we learn with members without violating national security laws.

...

By February 2014, it was becoming clear that labor's discussions with trade negotiators were not making the TPP a more progressive trade deal. However, members of Congress were under the mistaken impression that labor unions were very influential in the process. AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka wrote to policymakers to set the record straight, emphasizing that mere "access" is not meaningful participation:

More important than quantity of access, however, is quality of access. A seat on the LAC [Labor Advisory Committee] is not a seat at the negotiating table, much less an assurance that labor’s policy proposals will be incorporated into either the U.S. proposal or the final agreement. Because LAC members do not have access to the full negotiating texts, or to information regarding USTR priorities and choices, we cannot effectively influence the inevitable trade-offs in ways that would build the middle class and protect our democratic systems. And because we cannot share what little we do know with our membership or the larger public, we cannot use the traditional tools that civil society uses to offset the power of economic elites: education, organization and mobilization of the public.

Perhaps the best proof, however, that the LAC has not been a valuable tool in creating people-centered trade agreements is the actual content of the final agreements. The AFL-CIO has criticized the vast majority of trade agreements since NAFTA. If these trade agreements worked to create good jobs for workers, the AFL-CIO would be fighting for them as hard as or harder than Wall Street and the global corporations do. The tragic fact is that—despite some marginal progress over the years in some chapters—the model hasn’t changed. This flawed model has led to many trade agreements that skew their benefits toward the 1% and have exacerbated trade deficits, wage suppression, the dismantling of our manufacturing sector and income inequality.

[1StrongBlackMan]

190. Funny, this was the exact piece I was referring to ...

But notice what Trumka, actually, says ... and what he doesn't say ...

He acknowledges that Labor DOES have input (i.e., a seat on the LAC); but, he doesn't say that "corporate interests" have anything more than a seat on the LAC, i.e., a seat at the negotiating table.

He is merely lamenting (rightfully) that Labor doesn't have, in his estimation, a big enough voice.

[cascadiance]

212. Well, you do note AFLCIO's concern that corporate interests were overwhelming majority...

... on the LAC, and were what he considered more powerful as part of the inside negotiating team as a result.

What is also not noted, but is a big concern with this process is that the USTR team itself is composed of revolving door lobbyists from Corporate America who are doing the bidding of this 80+% of the LAC that are corporate lobbies there.

Note this concern of USTR's negotiators on Intellectual Property chapters...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140422/06011926988/revolving-door-mpaa-hires-chief-ustr-negotiator-behind-acta-tpps-ip-chapter.shtml

More concerns here...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130503/14341222941/ustr-nominee-froman-called-one-most-egregious-examples-way-revolving-door-works-between-govt-business.shtml

Don't you and others see here why this was negotiated in secret, and so many details kept from us? Just about all of the negotiating parties in this are compromised to big money.

[1StrongBlackMan]

180. I rank every issue that you and DSB list and a couple more ...

higher than repealing TPP and reinstating G-S.

[sabrina 1]

35. So you disagree with Biden then? Who says the money in politics is the most

important issue because until we fix that NOTHING else can be accomplished?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. More important than people getting their SS checks, their Medicare, their Medicaid...

More important than people getting their SS checks, their Medicare, their Medicaid...


I don't think so..

[sabrina 1]

49. What? Are you unaware of WHO is trying to cut SS? Why they even have the POWER

they have to do that? Biden explains it all for you in his speech yesterday where he agreed with Sanders that until we take care of this problem where extremist Repubs who would never have a chance of getting elected, are BOUGHT and PAID for by big money and then they have the power to cut SS and Medicare and destroy our Social Safety nets. And now, not just Repubs, they are buying Dems also, people in OUR party who support cuts to SS using the Chained CPI. Got any idea of how many DEMS, Third Way Dems, support that pos legislation?

I guess you answered my question, you don't agree with Biden and Bernie about what must be done to end the buying of our electorate and thereby ending the possibility of a Congress that works for their Corporate Donors rather than the people who vote for them.

That's fine. But I agree with Biden and Bernie. First we must end the practice of buying government before anything else can be accomplished.

[artislife]

193. If Hillary isn't bothered.....well then neither am I

Basically, that is what it sounds like to me

[SusanCalvin]

136. I agree

For people who are living day to day and paycheck to paycheck. We have to take care of them, but we have to fix the system too. If for no other reason, so that they will have a voice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. I rely on Medi Cal . That's CA's Medicaid program. That is why it's important to me./nt

[SusanCalvin]

140. Again, I completely agree.

People must be taken care of. But the system is messed up, and corporations and Republicans are pitting people against people to keep it that way for their profit.

[1StrongBlackMan]

172. I know ...

And I would hazard a guess that if you stopped 10 people in the street ... maybe 2 of them would correctly identify both, and one of those would support one of the other.

[DanTex]

175. Agreed, and great posts throughout this thread.

TPP and Glass-Steagall have become bumper stickers to bash Hillary with, and the people who yell the loudest about them are the ones who are the most clueless about what they actually are and what their significance is.

[1StrongBlackMan]

183. +1 ...

I've taken to referring to this as, "BettyEllening"

A while back DUer Bettyellen, posted that she, being not much of a sports fan, found herself attending a number of sporting events. In order to entertain herself, she would pick out a loud person in the crowd and just yell out whatever that person yelled out with gusto, then she would watch the reaction of those around her. She found that her companions began to think that she actually knew what she was talking about!

Please join me in my campaign to have the term entered into the DU lexicon (and beyond)!

[GeorgeGist]

226. Are you a Hillary supporter?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

228. Yes, why?

[dsc]

3. President Obama is a Republican, who knew

the majority of black voters (who support the TPP) are Republicans who knew. I had no idea.

[OnlyBernieBurnsBush]

5. Our African-American President supports the TPP, unfortunately...

But why put words into the mouth of the progressive African-Americans who back him?

[dsc]

14. several polls have stated that a majority of black voters support the TPP

you may not like that, but that doesn't change that they do.

[artislife]

18. I would love to understand why they support it

Not arguing with what you said, but not understanding why anyone would want to support it.

It just doesn't seem like it would do an individual any good.

[whatchamacallit]

29. Good question n/t

[Doctor_J]

105. because Obama supports it

Duh

[artislife]

110. I see nt

[Recursion]

123. Because they are concentrated in the South and the coasts, which will get the most benefit from it?

That would be my first guess; Coastal and Sun Belt cities will probably do pretty well, at the expense of heartland cities.

[cascadiance]

19. Are there links as to why they do support it?

Aside from that Obama supports it?

[dsc]

32. I don't think polls got into the whys

if I had to guess I would say two things. One, Obama's support of it probably matters quite a bit. Two, I think Blacks are less likely to be in the unions that have been opposed to the TPP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. The ironic thing is rank and file Democrats supported it and rank and file Republicans opposed it...

So both parties were voting against the will of their constituents with Ds voting against something a plurality of their constituents supported and Rs voting for something a plurality of their constituents opposed.

[cascadiance]

33. Not ironic, but by design, which is why it was so secret...

... and the media barely said a word about it leading up to the TPA vote, and with that passed, not much can be done to stop the TPP vote either.

All most of the people have heard from our "mainstream media" is that Obama supports it and that it will "help trade", and therefore they support it as it must be good. And uninformed Republicans vote against it for the same reasons (Obama supporting it).





Those that are informed (and we're fortunate to have the likes of Wikileaks and other investigative alternative media outlets), know that there's a lot more to be concerned about it, which is why you have bipartisan resistance towards TPP/TPA from grass roots in those cases.

[Recursion]

124. I found that interesting too (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. I was actually a bit off...Both Ds and Rs support it but Ds support it in larger numbers.

[Recursion]

127. Interesting. Last poll I saw (months ago) it was in negative territory for R's

Though I think both bases are exhibiting movement towards their representatives' positions...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

130. Yes. I vaguely remember that poll...

But as I have been saying TPP and Glass Steagall are not on my priority list.

[whatchamacallit]

9. What does it mean that Obama and the Republicans sided against dems on the TPP?

[cascadiance]

20. It means just add up the votes and you'll have your answer...

Not that difficult to see what it means.

[sabrina 1]

37. Do you have a link to AAs supporting the TPP? Thanks, I know that all Progressive

Orgs, over 2,000 of them, oppose the TPP. And all Unions oppose it. So I guess no AAs belong to any Progressive Orgs or to Unions?? Is that what you are saying? Just post a link so we can decide if this is just your opinion or an an actual fact.

[dsc]

40. You do know what the word majority means don't you

it isn't synomous with all.

[sabrina 1]

52. So AAs do not belong to Unions or Progressive Orgs, in your view. Okay, that's all I wanted

to know.

I completely disagree btw, since I have worked for contractors who belong to unions and many of the members ARE AAs and none of them agree with the TPP and you should hear what they have to say about NAFTA.

[dsc]

67. apparently you don't know what majority means

so I guess I will spell it out for you. A majority doesn't mean all, it means 1 over half. Now, I don't think a majority of any ethnicity belongs to progressive groups. Union membership is at about 15% to give one example. Even if blacks were twice as likely as the population as a whole to belong to unions, that still would leave 70% of them not in unions. Thus a majority of them can support the TPP and still be as likely or even way more likely to belong to such groups. I hope that explains it to you, if it doesn't then I really don't know what else to say.

[sabrina 1]

76. I know what polls mean, if that's what you are referring to.

Polls do not require that the people they poll actually KNOW anything about the subject they are being polled on.

I prefer FACTs, real people, those who are informed, who KNOW the facts. But polls do not look for that, I've been polled, they didn't ask me what I actually KNEW about the topic of the poll.

Polls had Hillary winning in 2008.

And pollsters are in business.

I prefer the facts of the real world. As soon as people LEARN facts, their opinions will be valuable, but when they are not informed, those opinions are 'soft' subject to change once they learn the facts.

[dsc]

78. I prefer posters not making up what I said

I didn't say no blacks belonged to progressive groups. I didn't say that all blacks support the TPP. As to polls, no the polls didn't say Hillary would win in 2008. They said she was ahead, but under 50%. They turned out to have been fairly accurate as to her level of support. It wasn't the polls that were the problem it was the interpretation of them that was. Most people felt that the race would be like most primaries where when a candidate drops out the support for that candidate goes to other people in rough proportion to the support they had. Instead, Hillary picked up virtually no support from candidates who dropped out. It turned out to be more like a jungle primary that Louisiana has instead of a normal one. That isn't the pollster's fault.

[sabrina 1]

88. Polls on Hillary are meaningless wrt to issues at this point. She has name recognition

and is a Dem, that is all those Dems being polled hear. My MIL is a perfect example, while she ended up NOT voting for Hillary, and since she seemed to be on a list of people targeted by pollsters, every time she was polled on Hillary, 'do you support Hillary Clinton' she answered 'yes'. Same with my FIL, who actually did support Hillary initially but ended up late in the campaign, switching to Obama. I confess, I had a little to do with that.

So far, eg, we only have polls on the Dem base, which is only 32% of the electorate. We have no polls from Indies, now the largest voting bloc in the country at over 42% of registered voters. None of whom are likely to vote for status quo candidates since that is WHY they are now indies.

THAT is the demographic Bernie intends to get, that and the non-voting bloc which is huge, again unlikely to vote for the status quo candidates, since they stopped voting out of disgust for the entire system.

I have already signed up a few non-voters who know they will have to register as Dems to vote for Bernie in this state. THAT they said, is the only thing they are not happy about, but Bernie is a candidate they can finally vote FOR and will register in order to do so.

Polls are not capable of tracking all of these things. They are only tracking the bases of both parties, and even there Bernie has succeeded in taking at this point, nearly 20% of that voting bloc.

[dsc]

93. Indies can't vote in many of our primaries and caucuses

and thus shouldn't be polled in the states where they can't vote. Hillary's floor is quite likely above 50%. She got around 48% in 2008 and those people will vote for her this time. She also will likely do vastly better among black voters (she got about 30% of them in 08 against Obama) which should put her into the high 50's as a floor. Bernie might win New Hampshire, though I frankly doubt it. He will get within 15, maybe even 10, in Iowa. He has an outside chance of getting to single digits there. But in SC and NV he is going nowhere fast. Our primary electorate is very divorced from the electorates of Iowa and New Hampshire. It is browner and way more urban.

[zappaman]

106. Thanks for the info!

Good stuff and I hope people understand it.

[sabrina 1]

170. The information is incorrect. It has been corrected now by two people. Bernie

supporters are fully informed of the requirements for both non-registered voters and registered Independents as to whether or not they are in a state that has closed or open primaries. I have informed those non-registered voters in my state, they will need to register as Dems in order to vote for Bernie. They are going to do that.

It's a good idea to check whether the information you are receiving is accurate or not before thanking people for it.

The Dem Party is likely to see a surge in registered voters over the next year thanks to Bernie Sanders, and they will also be able to vote for Progressive candidates for Congress which will help to ensure that when elected, Bernie has a Congress that shares his, and the voters' views on policies.

[dsc]

185. unless and until you register as a dem you can't vote in those primaries

and once you do you are no longer an independent, that is what registering as a democrat means. So no, people who are independent in those states shouldn't be polled in our primaries.

[TM99]

115. Blatant fucking horseshit!

Yes, Indies do vote in primaries. And guess what! They even register for Dem or GOP membership long enough to caucus. I just did in Arizona as are many other indies who want some meaningful fucking change in the left in this country.

[dsc]

118. You might try reading instead of cussing at me

your post is rude and ill informed. I said indies can't vote in many of our primaries and that is true. Unless you register as a party member (30 days before the primary in many cases) you can't vote in the primary. In others they can. NH is one they can. NC is one they can't. And no, indies shouldn't be polled in states where they can't vote. Other than NH it is highly unlikely that indies will make a difference in the primary.

[TM99]

122. I read your post.

You are stating many when that is not the case.

Progressive & liberal independents are disrespected constantly on DU and yet we are often the ones that will decide an election, and this time we will play a very big role in the Democratic primary. Less than 35% of the population are registered Democrats.

I apologize if I came on strong about that but it is really pissing me off.

[dsc]

129. Here is a link to back up what I said

http://www.fairvote.org/research-and-analysis/presidential-elections/congressional-and-presidential-primaries-open-closed-semi-closed-and-top-two/

There are a considerable number of closed states on the list. In some states you can change party on the day of the election but in many of them you can't.

[sabrina 1]

171. Indies ARE aware that in some states they need to register as Dems

in order to vote for Bernie in the Primaries. That is something that all those who are campaigning for him have been made aware of.

[sabrina 1]

169. What? Indies are going to register as Dems JUST so they can vote for Bernie

in states that do not have open primaries, that is the first thing they are told and given the info they need regarding whether or not they are in a state where they need to register as Dems to vote for the Democratic candidate.

In my state, NY, they do have to register as Dems and naturally I have given them the info they need in order to do so.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Here's a link to the Pew Poll

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/23/americans-favor-tpp-but-less-than-other-countries-do/

[zappaman]

6. Welcome to DU...

[Major Nikon]

92. Results...

Welcome to DU...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=453668

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

No comments added by alerter

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jul 17, 2015, 10:22 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps the most inexplicable alert in the history of the universe.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "no comments by alerter" I need a reason for an alert.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Very odd alert w/no comment. What is your problem with the post?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No comments were provided by the jurist
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[zappaman]

102. Lol!

Someone had a 0-7 sad.

[London Lover Man]

109. Actually, it was in error.

No sad, but I'll take it in silence..

..ever wonder why it was no comment? I clicked on the wrong link and accidentally hit alert

Nothing against you.. or this post... completely unintentional and accidental! My apologies, and yes, I'll take that 'sad' in silence.

[zappaman]

117. S'okay.

I like London!

[elleng]

7. More choices necessary.

'Do you stand with Martin O'Malley, Bernie, Repugs, or other.'

It is NOT true that 'OnlyBernieBurnsBush,' Governor O'Malley does too, and Dems, especially DUers must recognize this. Check him out here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1281

Thanks.

[Autumn]

10. Right next to Hillary?

I'm not a Clinton supporter though. I stand with Bernie because Bernie stands for me.

[artislife]

12. FYI to what the TPP is and why it could be considered important.

Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP): Job Loss, Lower Wages and Higher Drug Prices

Have you heard? The TPP is a massive, controversial "free trade" agreement currently being pushed by big corporations and negotiated behind closed doors by officials from the United States and 11 other countries – Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam.
The TPP would expand the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) "trade" pact model that has spurred massive U.S. trade deficits and job loss, downward pressure on wages, unprecedented levels of inequality and new floods of agricultural imports. The TPP not only replicates, but expands NAFTA's special protections for firms that offshore U.S. jobs. And U.S. TPP negotiators literally used the 2011 Korea FTA – under which exports have fallen and trade deficits have surged – as the template for the TPP.
In one fell swoop, this secretive deal could:

offshore American jobs and increase income inequality,
jack up the cost of medicines,
sneak in SOPA-like threats to Internet freedom,
and empower corporations to attack our environmental and health safeguards.
expose the U.S. to unsafe food and products,
roll back Wall Street reforms,
ban Buy American policies needed to create green jobs




The TPP would even elevate individual foreign firms to equal status with sovereign nations, empowering them to privately enforce new rights and privileges, provided by the pact, by dragging governments to foreign tribunals to challenge public interest policies that they claim frustrate their expectations. The tribunals would be authorized to order taxpayer compensation to the foreign corporations for the "expected future profits" they surmise would be inhibited by the challenged policies.


from Public Citizen
http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=2306

[Sancho]

36. We don't have a final TPP...and the US currently has about 20 active trade agreements.

The most often discussed is NAFTA, and the 20 year report card on NAFTA is objectively mixed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-30/nafta-20-years-after-neither-miracle-nor-disaster

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1212/pros-and-cons-of-nafta.aspx

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/u-s-economy-since-nafta-18-charts/

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

http://www.ttgconsultants.com/articles/freetrade.html

[sabrina 1]

39. It's not mixed for the thousands of people who lost jobs as a result of NAFTA.

Not even nearly mixed. ALL Unions oppose it. ALL Progressive Orgs, totally approx 2,000, oppose it. So who is 'mixed' about it again?

[Sancho]

47. Haha...I'm a 40 year union member...

once worked in a textile mill in SC that is now closed. NAFTA did not close those factories. It's true that the US does not have tariffs or fair import taxes. It's true that we ignore currency manipulation. It's true that our tax structure and corporate regulations allow outsourcing.

What's not true is that NAFTA is to blame for all that...and the textile industry (actually almost slave jobs - but that's another story)...were outsourced before NAFTA.

I'd like to see the final TPP and then look at what impact (good and bad) it might have for US workers. If it's bad for US workers then whoever is President should not sign it.

Of the 20 current active US trade agreements, which ones are bad other than NAFTA? Are they all bad?

[whathehell]

166. After CAFTA was signed, sixteen Columbian labor organizers were murdered

The one with Korea saw a lot of steel being dumped onto American markets.

[artislife]

196. Thanks for bringing this up

[whathehell]

227. You're welcome -- It's huge. n/t

[artislife]

43. I went through your links on NAFTA

But I wasn't taking about it.
I can see why you jumped on this but the thing about the TPP is that it isn't NAFTA.

Here's something else from my link. I don't think you actually clicked on it, or you would have seen this.

Although it is called a "free trade" agreement, the TPP is not mainly about trade. Of TPP's 29 draft chapters, only five deal with traditional trade issues. One chapter would provide incentives to offshore jobs to low-wage countries. Many would impose limits on government policies that we rely on in our daily lives for safe food, a clean environment, and more. Our domestic federal, state and local policies would be required to comply with TPP rules.

That is how it differs from NAFTA. So though I enjoyed our dialogue, it really was comparing apples to oranges.

[Sancho]

54. As I understand it much of the TPP was drafted by corporations, but it's not finished.

I heard there's a move to include currency manipulation.

I listened to Diane Rhem where they discussed TPP.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2015-06-16/what-the-proposed-pacific-trade-deal-could-mean-for-u-s-jobs
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2015-02-03/understanding_the_trans_pacific_partnership_and_what_the_trade_deal_could_mean_for_the_u_s_economy

Even though I'm not an economist, it appears that there may be some things I'd object to and some other things that may be positive. That's the picture I also got from the conversations above (including one person who was at the table as an author).

I agree we need labeling and sometimes have regulations other countries don't like. We also impose things on other countries they don't like (GMO's, Roundup, etc.). I think that Congress should be more involved in the details of TPP, but given the recent inability to do anything, that means TPP would be DOA. I don't personally like fastback.

I would prefer to see what's in it. I still am not convinced Obama is a complete sell out to progressives. I'm willing to see what he is willing to sign.

[artislife]

59. We agree on labeling and round up!

And also President Obama. My two senators, Murray and Cantwell sided with the president on the vote.

I hope they aren't selling out the progressives, but the countries in play are an interesting bunch.



And thanks. I feel as if I had a nice debate instead of ...well you know...this site can be tough.

[artislife]

15. Glass-Steagall and why it could be considered important

DEFINITION of 'Glass-Steagall Act'
An act the U.S. Congress passed in 1933 as the Banking Act, which prohibited commercial banks from participating in the investment banking business. The Glass-Steagall Act was sponsored by Senator Carter Glass, a former Treasury secretary, and Senator Henry Steagall, a member of the House of Representatives and chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee. The Act was passed as an emergency measure to counter the failure of almost 5,000 banks during the Great Depression. The Glass-Steagall lost its potency in subsequent decades and was finally repealed in 1999.




Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/glass_steagall_act.asp#ixzz3gCG1EiKw
Follow us: @Investopedia on Twitter



And what happened after 1999?

Oh yes.

[Sancho]

38. I keep asking why breaking up the banks would help in today's world...

Most of the biggest banks are not in the US, and most US money is not out of the country.

Breaking up US banks would do nothing. Closing tax loopholes might help. Most big banks are not in the US, and most influential money is not in the US. The US can't "break up" international banks, and without Congress cannot change the possibility of "influence".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks

1 China Industrial & Commercial Bank of China (ICBC)
2 China China Construction Bank Corporation
3 United Kingdom HSBC Holdings
4 China Agricultural Bank of China
5 United States JPMorgan Chase & Co.
6 France BNP Paribas
7 China Bank of China
8 Japan Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group
9 France Crédit Agricole Group
10 United Kingdom Barclays PLC
11 United States Bank of America
12 Germany Deutsche Bank
13 United States Citigroup Inc
14 Japan Japan Post Bank
15 United States Wells Fargo
16 Japan Mizuho Financial Group
17 United Kingdom Royal Bank of Scotland Group
18 China China Development Bank
19 France Société Générale
20 Spain Banco Santander

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/29/wealthy-stashing-offshore_n_3179139.html

Global Super-Rich Stashing Up To $32 Trillion Offshore, Masking True Scale Of Inequality: Study

The global super-rich are stashing trillions of dollars offshore with the help of some of the world's biggest banks, putting billions of dollars out of the taxman’s reach and masking wealth inequality's true heights.

Wealthy people were hiding between $21 and $32 trillion in offshore jurisdictions around the world as of 2012, according to a 2012 study from the Tax Justice Network, an organization which aims to promote tax transparency. The study, highlighted by a recent Bloomberg News report, found that more than $12 trillion of that money was managed by 50 international banks, many of which received bailouts during the financial crisis, according to James Henry, the study’s author.

“There’s a lot more missing wealth in the world than we had known about from previous estimates,” Henry told The Huffington Post. “The real scandal is not all these individual scandals but the fact that world’s policy makers who know about this stuff, have basically done nothing.”

[sabrina 1]

41. I keep asking how using trillions of tax dollars to save the asses of corrupt Wall St

Bankers does anything to help those who were the victims of their criminal, corrupt actions. So far, no answer. But I do know some of those victims, not important of course to those who profit from all these corrupt actions or their supporters, but definitely important to Unions ALL of whom oppose the TPP and to all 2,000 Progressive Orgs, many of whom are advocates for the victims.

Since I personally know some of their victims, I oppose the TPP and join all those Progressive Orgs in their efforts to stop this assault on our sovereignty AND on America's workers.

[Sancho]

56. I agree there were criminal bankers...but

spending trillions was preferable to bread lines like the 1920's.

We put CEO's in jail after the savings and loan crisis and again after Enron. Lots of employees lost their retirement, the bad guys who didn't go to jail took the money and got away.

I know the 2008 was bad (didn't help me much!), but I think that it will take an entirely Democratic Congress, a liberal SC, and an agreement with international partners to pass meaningful regulations at this point.

Wall Street is just one small part of the international banking manipulation to me.

[sabrina 1]

64. Not getting your reasoning. If the trillions had been spent on the victims rather than the

perps, there would have been no bread lines, or tent cities or the millions of homeless and the children who are going hungry every day.

But our party decided to bail out the perps and save them from jail leaving the victims to try to deal with the results of their crimes.

I saw the tent cities in Ca and Az and NY. People who once belonged to the middle class. Trillions spent on THEM rather than the criminals who caused them to be end up jobless and homeless would started this country back on a path to sanity and ended Reagonomics. But the money in politics pretty much guaranteed that the perps would be saved from the fate they surely deserved while the victims, many still living in tents, homeless, working but for starving wages, would have been back in the work force, contributing to the economy, something the perps certainly are not doing.

[Sancho]

74. We've had plenty of homeless and foreclosures here in FL too...

I think the bankers didn't go to jail because there was no one willing to investigate them, and also evidence was hard to gather.

Regardless, the biggest waste of trillions in on the military.

After that, some banks were bailed out, but most of them have had to pay back the money with interest. I think a couple did go under.

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

We're tracking where taxpayer money has gone in the ongoing bailout of the financial system. Our database accounts for both the broader $700 billion bill and the separate bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

For each entity, we provide a “Net Outstanding” amount, which shows how deep taxpayers are in the hole after accounting for any revenue the government has received (usually through interest or dividends).

Companies that failed to repay the government and resulted in a loss are shaded red. You can see a list of those investments here. All other investments either returned a profit to the government or might still be repaid. Recipients of aid through TARP’s housing programs (such as mortgage servicers and state housing orgs) received subsidies that were never intended to be repaid, so we don’t mark those as losses..

[sabrina 1]

81. I have read all these reports and completely disagree that there wasn't

enough to prosecute them on. THERE WAS. But the money they spent buying politicians over the decades, proved to have been money well spent.

If you haven't seen it, I would recommend watching 'The Men Who Crashed The World' a documentary on the entire disgusting greed and corruption that caused the devastation that is still affecting millions of people while the perps walked free, WITH our tax dollars.

No one gave a few thousand to a homeowner to try to appease the banks who were foreclosing on them.

Why? Because they didn't have the money or foresight to buy the politicians who could have directed our tax dollars towards THEM.

All that money they spend buying our politicians pays off when the 's&%t hits the fan' and they inevitably screw up, which they will again since they suffered no consequences.

It has been called, correctly imo, the 'biggest heist in history'.

As for the bank takeovers of those that 'failed'?? That was simply Shock Doctrine at work. A way to solidify even power to fewer and fewer banks. THOSE BANKS that failed, should have been taken over by the government, nationalized, until things were sorted out, but instead they were taken over by BIGGER BANKS, ensuring we have fewer and fewer independent institutions and consolidating more and more power into fewer and fewer corporate entities.

[artislife]

46. Closing Tax loop holes would be great, too. Not instead of nt

[BlueJazz]

42. I'll never forgive Clinton for that.

[artislife]

48. We have just may have found the real difference

Between H and Bernie supporters.


Good to know

[Zorra]

69. This is the exact difference between Democrats and Third Way. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. If supporting TPP is a proxy for Third Wayism than two out of every three Democrats is one

including John Kennedy:

If we are to pay for our commitments abroad, we must expand our exports. Our businessmen must be export conscious and export competitive. Our tax policies must spur modernization of our plants--our export credit and promotion campaigns for American industries must continue to expand.

[Zorra]

83. Polls like that are meaningless unless all the people polled

actually know what the TPP is.

Below is a much more accurate poll, because the people polled know what the TPP is. Notice that an overwhelming majority of republicans support the TPP in this poll.

So who voted for TPP fast track in the Senate? (List)

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Ayotte (R-NH), Yea
Baldwin (D-WI), Nay
Barrasso (R-WY), Yea
Bennet (D-CO), Yea
Blumenthal (D-CT), Nay
Blunt (R-MO), Yea
Booker (D-NJ), Nay
Boozman (R-AR), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Capito (R-WV), Yea
Cardin (D-MD), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Nay
Cassidy (R-LA), Yea
Coats (R-IN), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Nay
Coons (D-DE), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Not Voting
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Cotton (R-AR), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Cruz (R-TX), Nay
Daines (R-MT), Yea
Donnelly (D-IN), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Ernst (R-IA), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fischer (R-NE), Yea
Flake (R-AZ), Yea
Franken (D-MN), Nay
Gardner (R-CO), Yea
Gillibrand (D-NY), Nay
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Heinrich (D-NM), Nay
Heitkamp (D-ND), Yea
Heller (R-NV), Yea
Hirono (D-HI), Nay
Hoeven (R-ND), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Johnson (R-WI), Yea
Kaine (D-VA), Yea
King (I-ME), Nay
Kirk (R-IL), Yea
Klobuchar (D-MN), Nay
Lankford (R-OK), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Lee (R-UT), Not Voting
Manchin (D-WV), Nay
Markey (D-MA), Nay
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Not Voting
Merkley (D-OR), Nay
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Moran (R-KS), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murphy (D-CT), Nay
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Paul (R-KY), Nay
Perdue (R-GA), Yea
Peters (D-MI), Nay
Portman (R-OH), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Nay
Risch (R-ID), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rounds (R-SD), Yea
Rubio (R-FL), Yea
Sanders (I-VT), Nay
Sasse (R-NE), Yea
Schatz (D-HI), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Scott (R-SC), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Nay
Shaheen (D-NH), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Nay
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Sullivan (R-AK), Yea
Tester (D-MT), Nay
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Tillis (R-NC), Yea
Toomey (R-PA), Yea
Udall (D-NM), Nay
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Warner (D-VA), Yea
Warren (D-MA), Nay
Whitehouse (D-RI), Nay
Wicker (R-MS), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Yea

[HFRN]

79. HRC deftly nuanced on TPP

but I can guess what she would have voted, if she were a senator when the vote was tallied. admittedly, pure speculation on my part

[Doctor_J]

107. Clinton supporters stand with the republicans on most issues

Someone posted a pic last week. Hillary and Jeb Bush agree on nearly all economic issues.

[840high]

113. So sad for our country.

[shenmue]

148. Wow

And it's not even primary time yet.

You think you're going to convince people to vote for your guy with this garbage?

[HFRN]

230. that's called 'The Neoliberal Choice'

which is no choice at all

[stevenleser]

121. TPP-neutral. Glass Steagal will not pass the Republican House

So, they are at the bottom of my political priority list

[Recursion]

125. Clinton is my 2nd choice after O'Malley, but: TPP "meh", Glass-Steagall "slightly negative meh"

I'm not excited about the TPP, but I understand why it's US policy and prefer its framework to doing more business with Chindiadesh.

Glass-Steagall does somewhat lessen systemic risk, but it also would have prevented us from doing TARP, which was one of the more successful government interventions in a while. If the retail banks had been the problem, I'd definitely be for it; as it is, it just seems largely symbolic, and I don't like making big changes for symbolic reasons for the most part.

But the "meh" part overrides the rest for me: O'Malley, for instance, disagrees with me on both AFAICT, and he still has my support.

[SusanCalvin]

142. TPP puts corporations above elected governments.

End of argument, as far as I am concerned.

[HFRN]

232. completely above nt

[DCBob]

176. Since the final TPP doesn't exist yet I think we need to wait to see the details.

Regarding TPA and TAA.. those I agree with. Also not sure simply reinstating Glass-Steagall is the best solution.

[cascadiance]

214. Which is why TPA should NOT have been passed before we did know what is happening in the TPP...

AND the TISA, TPIP, and other trade agreements down the road that TPA will UNLEASH on our democracy in efforts to screw it!

[OKNancy]

177. I agree with Barney Frank about Glass-Steagall

"The point of Glass-Steagall is we'll only let banks do certain things, but very damaging things were done in the economy outside of banks," said Frank. The Massachusetts Democrat was an architect of the Dodd-Frank reform bill in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis following the collapse of the subprime mortgage market. President Barack Obama signed the bill into law in 2010 .

"AIG was not a bank. It wouldn't have been affected by Glass-Steagall," Frank said. "Much of what we did was to put some regulation on derivatives and to require risk retention."

Frank said Dodd-Frank had adequately addressed that issue, noting that it would now take an act of Congress to bail out a bank, as the government did at the height of the financial crisis.

"We do say in the bill that if a large institution fails, we will abolish it, liquidate it, then the federal officials step in and deal with the consequences, but if in the course of dealing with the consequences, they have to spend any money, they are mandated to get it all back by assessing the largest financial institutions," Frank said. "We did end 'too big to fail.' "
"There are always going to be institutions—even if you split everyone in half or in thirds—there will be institutions, which if they couldn't pay enough of their debts, it could cause problems. So we do recognize that there are some institutions that are too big to ignored if they fail," Frank said, reiterating that a large bank in trouble would be dissolved and liquidated.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100904614

[HassleCat]

231. I'm guessing this

As someone who may end up being a Clinton supporter, I hope she is saying nothing now, and will do the right thing when the moment arrives. If you point out, "That's not likely," I agree. In fact, it's less than unlikely. The only solace we can expect is that a President Clinton would work toward a better TPP than a President Walker.

[freshwest]

240. She supports Dodd-Frank, as does Warren, who said she was still proud of signing it as significant.

It was called the most effective reining in at that time. She said when asked later if she still was in favor of it versus trying to resurrect Glass-Steagall, that she was still proud of it.

And she endorsed Clinton in the past and says people should listen to what HRC has to say. HRC is not a sound bite speaker it and it makes her hard for some to understand.

They differ in style, but not on the political reality. GS won't pass until we the people get up and make it pass with votes.

The POTUS, no matter who it is in 2017, can't make the Congress do it. That scenario could be paraphrased as 'The POTUS proposes and Congress disposes.'

That's why the GOP is able to follow through on each election and winning. They are prepared from numerous meet ups with the Koch brothers, literally. They are well funded and carrying out their plan from the ground up.

[George II]

233. Are there only those two narrow options? "If you're not with us you're against us"!

[grahamhgreen]

236. OP is asking, where do YOU stand?

[George II]

237. This is the OP bottom-line question:

"Do you stand with Bernie or do you stand with the Republicans?"

Two very narrow options. I "stand" with neither of those options.

[grahamhgreen]

239. Are you comfortable enough with your position to tell us where you do stand? Personally, I think the

TPP is an attempt to destroy democracy.