The response of #BLM by white liberals indicates the overall problem...

[Drunken Irishman]

It's clear there is a huge disconnect between white liberalism and the largest Democratic constituency out there - and it's one that has been there since the early days of the Obama administration. The response of white liberals, who instead of being reflective about their position, are outright hostel to a growing aspect of the base that has, for the last 40-plus years, been the backbone of the Democratic Party, is part of the problem - and maybe why the BLM groups feel the need to speak out so heavily.

Instead of complaining about what they're doing - maybe focus on why they're doing it.

And yet, from what I've seen, the response has been pretty damn patronizing - you should support Bernie because, gosh, he's done so much for black America. Just listen to his speeches! You should support Bernie because he's fighting for total income equality, which will totally benefit blacks in this country. Moreover, then it's white liberals who turn around and deflect that criticism by pointing to the first black president and saying, "go heckle him! - not the white guys!"

Do I think the intent there is as nasty as it's coming across? No. But I think there is a huge blind spot when it comes to white liberals and race. You wanna know how I know? Because I've experienced it. The fact of the matter is that no amount of compromising, empathy or understanding is going to get us to fully acknowledge the issue from the perspective of black America. Bernie Sanders will never know what it's like to be black - he will never know the struggles of growing up black in America, especially black and poor in America.

That's not Bernie's fault - or any of our faults - but the way we approach this overall issue can be our fault. But from the start, whether it's been on BLM or the overall administration of the first black president, many white liberals have used the same tactics, even if with motives completely opposite, of the right - parading out other blacks to prove their point to black America, tearing down the actions of the first black president, dismissing a good portion of what he's done and all this reflects on black America who, in large part, still supports Pres. Obama.

Granted, you'll find a few in the BLM community who do not support Obama, who feel he's been too tepid on this matter, and who have, in fact, heckled him - just as they did in Selma when he gave his all too important speech.

It happens - but the outrage then was minimal. There were a few people who brought it up, but on the whole, no one seemed to be as defensive about it when it happened.

Even now, even today, I see white liberals posting links from black supporters of Bernie, as if that validates their whole point. It doesn't. It doesn't no more than when FOX News brings Allan West out in front of their audience to trash the President. The assumption, of course, is that because it's coming from a black voice, it automatically has more merit and can be used by whites to hide behind. No, no it can't.

This has been something the left does a great deal - namely with guys like Tavis Smiley and Cornell West. It's a way white liberals can hit Obama on issues that, on the whole, they'd feel uncomfortable hitting him on because of his skin color.

And don't think many liberal blacks haven't taken notice - they have. It's why, even here on DU, there are concerns and questions among those black supporters of the President.

It's also why it's so important to listen to their concerns instead of spouting off on how their movement is dead to you. In the end, the Democratic Party will only go as far as the black community allows it.

Bernie won't win the White House on the backs of white liberal voters. He won't even win it on the backs of white voters. He'll win it, just as Obama did, with support from blacks and Hispanics - two demographics that overwhelmingly supported the Democratic Party.

But whatever you're doing is not helping. It's only turning black support off your guy. Step back, let 'em vent, listen to their concerns and go from there. I mean, I get where much of this is rooted - as I'm not a fan of heckling. I think it's rude. But there is also a reason this is blowing up like it is, and the refusal to address that reason is only damaging your candidate with a huge group of people that matter - and deflecting the criticism onto Obama or Holder is not the way to go, because that'll just alienate those groups that much more.

At least that's how I see it.

[whatchamacallit]

1. So the Kos diarist is just an Allen West to you?

I guess some black folks are more legit than others... Honestly, I don't give a fuck what you think. Black lives are important to me and the vast majority of DUers, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let somebody on the Internet, or even #BLM, dictate what to do, feel, think, or say. I'm supporting Bernie, and I'll do it my way. Anyone who doesn't like it can piss off.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. That's the dismissive answer that'll turn black voters off your guy.

Keep at it and you won't be voting for Bernie in November '16.

You don't give a fuck? Well good for you.

[whatchamacallit]

8. I'm not turning anybody away

Bernie Sanders is the candidate and it's his message that will either resonate with PoC or not. If someone decides not to vote for Sanders because they don't like something a supporter said on the Internet, that person is too illogical to merit consideration. Maybe PoC will be turned away by the dawning realization that their issues are being cynically coopted and exploited by a shapeshifting 1%er opportunist.

[Drunken Irishman]

9. Ignoring their criticisms is exactly turning them away.

[whatchamacallit]

12. What criticisms am *I* ignoring?

The only thing I'm ignoring is internet demagogues.

[Drunken Irishman]

13. lol

[whatchamacallit]

18. Lol is the answer when you got nothing

Despite your delusion, the AA vote won't be decided by what you or I say on DU. They can sort though the issues and arrive at a conclusion without your patronage. The only criticisms I'm ignoring are yours.

[Drunken Irishman]

22. Obviously that's not true.

If it was, this issue would've died over the weekend. But it clearly hasn't.

[whatchamacallit]

24. Which issue?

[Drunken Irishman]

26. No need to play naive on this.

[whatchamacallit]

27. You gotta do better than a string of non sequiturs

Please elaborate.

[Drunken Irishman]

31. There is no need to elaborate.

You know exactly what I am saying. I addressed it in my post. Your response decided to be far more combative than my original post, which is fine, but the idea that this issue is not big because black voters won't be deciding on their candidate based on what happens on DU (or online in general) is absolutely downplaying the issue here. It's clear there are a good amount of black people who feel put off by the dialogue of some Bernie supporters and maybe you feel it's not an issue, or they're too illogical (your words) to merit consideration, then you absolutely are dismissing them and their feelings.

If you feel their merits are questionable because they question the rhetoric of not just Sanders, but his supporters, fine, but like I said, you're not going to get anywhere in November, 2016, without their support. It's clear this issue is much larger than your dismissive tone suggests - as it's gone from something marginal, a heckling at a rally, to a full-blown dialogue on race in the Democratic Party.

The tone some have taken, the condescending posts (not necessarily from you) from some on the left - either here at DU or other places - does not help. But if you feel it's unimportant than whatever. I can't change that.

[whatchamacallit]

32. Is anything I say going to influence your support for Hillary?

If the answer is no, why not? But let's cut to the chase - What does whatchamacallit need to say right now to gain the trust of the AA community and ensure their support for Bernie Sanders? Just give me the magic words.

[Drunken Irishman]

35. I don't support Hillary.

Right now, I am undecided. I am holding out for Biden. But it's not even about reevaluating support for Bernie. I think it's great Bernie has so much support - but maybe examining the issues that keep people of color from supporting his campaign. It's important because, come November, 2016, we'll need 'em - whether it's Bernie, Hillary or Joe.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

42. I totally agree with you.

And passion can come with blind spots.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

77. That race---not economic inequality--is most important. That black people of ALL incomes are

being targeted, harassed, even killed. The perpetrated DO NOT care what income or economic stratum they belong to. THEY DO NOT CARE. All they see is black skin. Do you understand this?

This is why BLACK LIVES MATTERS. This is why we cannot miss the uniqueness of the movement because it is black people who are being targeted regardless of education or income.

Look at how the president is being treated? No amount of income EQUALITY is solving the racism that exists.

Do you understand this?

Do you understand why there must be a centrality of race and that we must highlight the important and critical nature of black lives--because those lives are being taken out. LITERALLY!!

(We already know that all lives matter. That is a given!)

[whatchamacallit]

80. Actually

I do understand it. I just don't see how HRC is going to address it with pander. Even if Bernie needs to modify his thinking to embrace the idea that change for PoC, from their perspective, is social first, economic second, he at least gets points for having a solid agenda aimed at the economic side of the equation. Contrasting Bernie's lifelong commitment to civil rights and social justice with Hillary's political posturing, I'll take Bernie any day.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

82. Anyone who knows me around these parts knows that I loathe HRC and the Clintons

Why are you assuming that I support her ass? Because I'm POC? Don't do that, please! I can't stand the woman.

Don't deflect by bringing her up. And don't lecture me about pandering. I know what that is.

Address your candidate's position and leave her out of it.

[whatchamacallit]

83. I didn't assume your support

Two things we hear continuously are "Bernie doesn't get it" and "the AA community is solidly behind HRC". What's the truth table for these propositions? FF, TT, FT, TF? Because these notions are linked the candidates are too. I think I did address my candidate's position in my last post, but if you have a specific question, I'll do my best to answer. Liberal_Stalwart71, I'm not really familiar with you, your views, or your background, you shouldn't assume I pigeonholed you because you're a person of color.

[bvar22]

89. Then you disagree with the OP.

Cool.

[John Poet]

100. I get it.

It's like, you've just watched this video
of police shooting a young black man in the back 17 times,
or tazer-torturing a pregnant black woman,



and then we want you to have a discussion about economics,
"because economic justice is just as important as race".


If we can provide free college educations and better wages,
it will do you no good if the police shoot you tomorrow night.

We have to stop the police from shooting you,
before you will have time to discuss economic issues,
before that can be of any interest whatsoever,
to people who are fighting for their lives...

[murielm99]

17. Your OP was very thoughtful, but

it was wasted on the Bernie supporters. They are going to support him slavishly and blindly. They are going to lash out at anyone who is critical.

It is a shame. He is better than that.

Anyway, thanks for the thought and care you put into the OP.

[zappaman]

21. +1.

[merrily]

36. An insulting broadbrush post like yours is not lashing out, I suppose?

[murielm99]

37. No, it is not.

I am stating the truth about Bernie supporters. You, and many of his supporters, cannot stand any type of criticism. That is no way to influence potential voters.

[merrily]

39. No you posted a totally gratuitous broad brush smear, even though no one had attacked you.

And either you cannot recognize or you cannot admit what you did.

You, and many of his supporters, cannot stand any type of criticism.

o
Baloney. First, calling a totally unsupported, unprovoked, broadbrush insult or smear again Bernie's DU supporters or Bernie "criticism" dignifies it way more than it merits.

Second, responding to smears and misstatements of fact, as I am doing to your unprovoked insult, does not mean anyone cannot stand criticism.. According to you, apparently, we're not supposed to respond to a bs post or a broadbrush unsupported insult? We're just supposed to put up with anything and everything anyone feels like throwing at Bernie or us? And, if we do respond, that means we can't stand criticism? Here's a thought. Don't post a broadbrush, unsupported insult out of nowhere in the first place.

BTW, which group is it again that can't stand criticism? For just one thing of hundreds, I don't think any Bernie supporters have posted that they should contact Hillary to tell her how badly her supporters on DU are behaving. More than one member of the Hillary Group has done that, though. That's a lot more like inability to stand criticism than refuting a false post.

Also, the concept that the hundreds of Bernie supporters on this board think and act as one is totally imaginary.

[Enthusiast]

45. +1! Well said!

[merrily]

47. Thank you. It's been very odd on DU lately. Every kind word is appreciated more than ever.

[brewens]

79. Raise hell at any rally or town hall you want but if you say you want

questions answered, STFU and pay attention to the answer! LOL That's what makes all of this a crock of shit.

[bvar22]

90. Talk about "wasted effort".....

..from a CUBS fan?
When was the last time they won the World Series?

[murielm99]

98. Go look it up.

I won't waste my effort telling you. Talk about childish!

[Agschmid]

54. Wow.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

2. Aren't you the person who just posted the racist line "if only dumb blacks understood"?

yes. Yes you are the person who just posted that. Go ahead. Explain that to the people in this thread.

[Drunken Irishman]

4. Thank you for bringing that up, bud.

You're absolutely right I did. It's also exactly the point I'm making - white liberals seem to need to explain to black people why they're wrong. It's patronizing to this group - and yes, you're basically saying they're too dumb to get it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. You said the words. I did not. You attempted to put those words in my mouth.

And that's a despicable thing to do to someone who never said or implied anything close to that. So I want people in this thread to know, bud, that you make up harmful shit like it was nothing, and then come here to dispense advice. Accusations of racism are dead fucking serious. False accusations of racism are the domain of the lowest filth.

[Drunken Irishman]

6. I don't need to attempt to do anything. It's the tone. And it's true.

I'll say it here. I have no problem saying it here. White people educating black people on why they need to do this and that, explaining to them why they're wrong, is at the height of condescending. That post by that OP was absolutely revolting - telling black people they were wrong and needed to go protest the first black president and leave the white Bernie Sanders alone.

It sounds like I touched a nerve with you, tho, so, maybe deep down you know I'm right?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

14. You have a very interesting history with race on DU.

I've just been reading your posts on which black people are good, and which are not. I still have tons to read. It's odd that a white guy from SLC is so well versed that he can ventriloquist-throw racist statements one minute and tell us which black people are not to be trusted the next.

[Drunken Irishman]

16. haha so you're also a stalker too.

That's pretty hilarious.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

19. No, but I'm literate and technically competent to perform a search.

I'll show you how sometime. It isn't hard. Then you can go look up everything I've ever posted.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. I don't need to. Your posts today tell me everything I need to know about you.

I mean, own it. It's not hard.

[merrily]

34. Jury results.

Mail Message
On Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:33 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

No, but I'm literate and technically competent to perform a search.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=464770

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack against another member

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:42 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter, are you kidding or did you alert on the wrong post? This is a measured, mild reply to a post that called the poster a stalker.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: THAT'S a "personal attack"?!?

Seems pretty tame.

Skin thickener is on aisle 4
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: passive aggressive insult. This member spends a great deal of his time on DU insulting other posters.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

67. Thanks for letting me know.

[Lancero]

25. Jury results, 3-4 leave

On Tue Jul 21, 2015, 02:13 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

You have a very interesting history with race on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=464762

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster appears to be stalking another, which clearly is a violation of DU's standards.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 21, 2015, 02:22 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Creepy. Way too much of this crap, here. It's a message board, people.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Reading a persons posts doesn't make them a stalker - If that was the case, then you'd be a stalker too because you read DCA's post.

What makes them a stalker is intentionally following a user around the site, commenting on everything they do, refusing to leave them alone despite any pleas to do such.

As for this post chain itself, it looks like DCA misinterpreted Drunken's original post, and rather then Drunken explaining his original point he devolves to throwing around insults.

Voting to leave since this situation isn't stalking - And even then, having re-read the community standards and the ToS neither make a mention of stalking.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[bravenak]

30. I was on that jury and I understood him perfectly.

[stevenleser]

68. +1 nt

[Number23]

7. Most of the comments have expressed disappointment in the horrible way Sanders conducted himself

at the event. But that disappointment is COMPLETELY overshadowed by the full fledged unadulterated HORROR with which alot of black people feel towards Sanders SUPPORTERS, not the man himself.

People can overcome a momentary disappointment over a really poorly handled moment in time. But people will have alot harder time overcoming their reticence when it seems like the nastiest, most unaware, and most racially clueless people in the world support you. People who are OPENLY HOSTILE to you and the needs of your family and seem to take great joy in letting you know in every conceivable way that you are unimportant.

When your supporters make black people do this:

you got some big and some truly serious problems.

[Drunken Irishman]

11. Absolutely.

It seems to always be the supporters who turn people off. I had a tough time coming around to Hillary in 2008 NOT necessarily because of her - but because of the shit her supporters said for months and months.

[freshwest]

86. Actually, I didn't get over supporters in 2008; by then I was set on Obama as as man of brilliant

intellect, honest, and open minded and weill ting to see the big picture. Her supporters gave me stomache for years.

I was in favor of BS, even though I felt it was inevitable HRC would not only run, but win the general in 2016. That came from several comments made by Obama himself. That made me think quite a bit.

Then I decided that since HRC might get it, I would support BS in the primaries and vote for the Democrat in the general, no matter who it was. And not holding my nose like a child, but accepting the harsh reality of what a GOP White House will do as we've seen from the GWB reign of terror.

But as I watched BSers go after HRC and then anyone else who dared say a discouraging word, and a number (no use asking me who to bait me into a hide, I have the names, though) who said they'd rather a GOP get into the White House than vote for HRC, and the personal attacks and all of that...

Sorry, Bernie is on his own. But I appreciate his plain talk and always did. If he gets nominated, fine. If he doesn't, fine.

Earlier on I was talking to HRC fans IRL about what BS was saying was important. They agreed and were interested. Now I say nothing.

It's not against BS. It's the kind of behavior that I've seen online - I expect some of these people would be working in government if he's eleced. I don't want to be under the thumb of some of these elements, although many BS supporters are good folks.

I'm just turned off and I have a very good memory. And I don't forgive or forget.

[bravenak]

29. Exactly. They made me go back a check undecided on that poll. I have never felt such pure racism.

[Cha]

43. It's unreal, bravenak.. bad before but worse now.. Just saw this tweet from AngryBlackLady..

Imani Gandy ?@AngryBlackLady
let me know how this "harass Black people into supporting Bernie Sanders" campaign is working out for y'all.
#BidenMeteor2016
8:28 AM - 20 Jul 2015 87 87 Retweets
111 111 favorites

Imani Gandy ?@AngryBlackLady
👉🏾 RT @rodimusprime: If these Bernie Standers knew how many black voters they are losing with these tone deaf Twitter attacks...

7:29 AM - 20 Jul 2015 29 29 Retweets
27 27 favorites

MOre Tweets http://theobamadiary.com/2015/07/20/a-tweet-or-two-302/

Must be bad on twitterverse

[bravenak]

44. They don't even notice how badly they are acting.

But I have been telling them and telling them and eventually I'll say 'I told you so!'

[Cha]

46. I was on a jury today where somebody was behaving very badly.. he got a wake up call or not..

Throwing ugly insults about #BlackLivesMatter and the BlackCommunity out there.. and the "poor progressives"

No shame, no clue, and no effin' one ounce of empathy.

[bravenak]

64. Girl. They jusy keep going and going. Like energizer bunnies.

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. The nastiest ones know, they just don't care ...

the clueless ones, aren't nasty ... they're just clueless ... and it appears willful.

[bravenak]

94. Like this very much not racist at all post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995434#post34

[gollygee]

56. "Let me know how this 'harass Black people into supporting Bernie Sanders' campaign is working out

for y'all."

YES. That's what it is! This is frustrating for me particularly because I am a Bernie Sanders supporter and I hate to see so many people who claim to support him steering him into the rocks.

[Cha]

74. I can imagine, gollygee.. it really is too bad that so many have no clue how they're hurting

him so much.. because they think they're protecting him.

[Gothmog]

73. Thanks for posting

[Cha]

78. You're welcome, Gothmog

[Cha]

38. Good point, 23. "People can overcome a momentary disappointment over a really poorly handled moment

in time.".. yes, we usually do.

But, the never ending making Bernie the victim.. and continuous insults to our Black Community that started way before NRN and goes on and on .. won't ever be forgiven.. afaic.

This is about #BlackLivesMatter... They are ultimately the most important issue right now.

[brer cat]

53. I wish the Sanders supporters would listen to you

and others who so clearly state the problems. Listening doesn't seem to be one of their attributes, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[aikoaiko]

55. "... the nastiest, most unaware, and most racially clueless people in the world ..." Bernie fans?

Not the teabaggers? Not the klan? Not skinheads?
Not Trump supporters? Not rush ditto heads?


You think Bernie supporters are " the nastiest, most unaware, and most racially clueless people in the world "?

[gollygee]

58. They aren't clueless. They're willfully hateful.

As far as clueless goes, yeah I think she's right.

[Number23]

84. They are definitely in the top 5. The difference is that Tea Partiers et al don't hurl cherry picked

and misdirected MLK quotes at you every few days and try to "instruct" you on your own culture and experiences.

[1StrongBlackMan]

92. I just got home from a non-political event ...

with about 50 Black professionals. During the social hour, a group I was socializing with turned to politics ... specifically the aftermath of the BLM protest. The group was just about evenly split between:

1) I like what Bernie is talking but I just don't believe he can pull any of it off without huge majorities in both the house and the senate; and,

2) My problem is not with Bernie but his supporters, can you imagine what it will be like working with them to put a Democrat in the White House? Will their condescendence and nastiness towards Black folks suddenly disappear, if he wins the primary?

And, there seemed to be a real interest in Martin O'Malley; but, they just weren't hearing enough about him.

[MADem]

105. You might like this....

Roderick Morrow: .... The thing about the Bernie Sanders fans is while they're very obtuse and they don't listen, they are more polite than the people who just call you the n-word or a racial slur or something. It's more like that passive-aggressive "We're on the same side, man!" where clearly they don't want you to talk about anything that their candidate can do better, but they do want you to just vote for him.
There's a lot of "You're not saying this stuff to other candidates," but we are. He just kind of had a bad 48 hours or so. I'm not expecting him to drop out of the race; I think he'll be fine. Hopefully, from the tweets I've seen, I think his campaign's listening, and hopefully they're going to regroup and hopefully reform and be more vocal around some of these issues....


Dara Lind:So the Sanders supporters who aren't with the campaign, did you see any receptiveness from them, or was it just a lot of unironic "#BernieSoBlack he marched with MLK," which missed the point completely?
Roderick Morrow:Oh, yeah, there's a ton of that. Honestly, the joke is not even on Bernie Sanders. That's what's so funny — the joke is on the defense of him, which is, if you extrapolate to the furthest extent, he can do no wrong on race. Like, we should not even expect anything of him, he put in his time already, we need to just shut up.

I'm sure it does happen, but I can't imagine people doing this to other constituencies, because you do rely on those votes. At Netroots Nation, you're going to be addressing a very diverse but very black-centric audience, and to not really be prepared to talk about race there is a little bit of a slap in the face. So for us — and when I say "us," I just mean black people, I'm not any level of an activist or anything — for us to just say, Hey, you kind of did a bad job, hope you do better in the future, and then get bombarded with "He marched in 1968!" it's like, All right, man, I don't know what to tell you.
And it's kind of scary, too, because on a deeper level, when he talked about Ferguson, he was like, "Well, the real problem is that there's not enough jobs." And while I agree — jobs are definitely a problem, and opportunities are a problem, and you definitely want people to be working — Mike Brown was going to college. He was on his way to school in a couple of days. I don't think that was necessarily the problem in that situation. I hope it's not just him saying, "If these Negroes were working there wouldn't be any problems," because ooh, that's not too far from some really bold negative statements that we've heard about the black race in the past. I don't think that's what's underlying it, I just think he needs to be more vocal and speak with some authority about it because he seems to run from talking about it. I don't think it's that hard to talk about it. Elizabeth Warren knocked the socks off the room, because she was talking about the economy, but she just happened to mention, "Hey, black lives matter, we do need people working, we do need to get people out of jails." She was very vocal about it, but I didn't feel like she was just coming there to kiss butt. I felt like she was just being sincere.

Dara Lind:After today, are you more or less hopeful about the white progressives who have been using Sanders's civil rights record?
Roderick Morrow:I'm more hopeful for the campaign than I am for his defenders. The campaign itself tweeted out a couple things. Obviously they're seeing the trends on social media and they're obviously seeing they need to do better.

.....
As far as fans ... I don't know, man. You're talking about hundreds of years of history of people who can kind of be very ... they can ignore a lot of voices if they don't sign up exactly with what they're saying. There will always be a struggle, even in progressive spaces, to have people who don't dismiss you for having a different goal than they do. You see the same thing with, like, immigration. A lot of black people who love President Obama don't care about immigration. Because it's like, "Not our problem!" The challenge is always how can you support each other without turning on each other? I don't know that the Sanders camp fans will learn that lesson. But it ain't going to stop people from wanting #BlackLivesMatter to be talked about, so they might as well let it go.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

[Number23]

108. Yeah, I saw that. Too bad the Sanders supporters here are too busy racking up the recs with their

idiotic, self-pitying clap trap than reading this stuff themselves.

It is BEYOND glaringly obvious that those all important 200 recs on a little seen web site mean SO MUCH MORE to them than the Obama coalition needed to actually win. But then again, this same group has shit on Obama and his winning coalition every single solitary chance they've gotten so their "gotta rally the troops to protect ourselves from those terrible Negroes" reaction is no surprise whatsoever.

[BlueMTexpat]

10. K & R!

[MisterP]

15. man, you do realize all of these points apply to Alan Keyes?

Last edited Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:54 AM - Edit history (1)

on edit: (except Keyes didn't work with the CRM for *several decades*)

[Betty Karlson]

23. I couldn't agree more. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

28. I'm sure a polling service is working on this right now.

[HooptieWagon]

33. BLM has already stated what they think of white progressives:

White Progressives™ are gonna learn today. #SayHerName #NN15.

They don't want support from white progressives.
Fine. I'll continue supporting a white progressive candidate, and they can go find a candidate to support. Maybe they'll find one with a strong track record. Best of luck to them. Bye.

[Scootaloo]

40. If only we heard more from BLM and less from Clinton opportunists.

But then, that's really sort of the point, isn't it Drunken Irishman? Sanders supporters - and absolutely only Sanders supportrs - are told to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. Not to make space for black voices (after all, silence is demanded of black people who dare support sanders too) but simply to silence pro-Sanders people.

if BLM wants to say something, I'm all ears. But i'm not going to shut up and back off because you demand it of me. So please remove your finger from my face. I don't really care for someone presuming to dress me down and tell me what-for over the fact I dare support a candidate they don't like. Especially not some white dude who presumes he gets to speak for black people.

[TM99]

50. A-fucking-men!

I am a POC. I support Sanders. I support BLM. I have no problems with their protests. I have no problems with how Sanders and O'Malley handled themselves after being pounced on. I have no problems with white folks dismay at the differences in style between Post New Left liberal activism and New Left liberal activism, and trust me they are different enough to cause dismay even for myself at times.

What do I have a problem with? I have a problem with opportunistic Clinton supporters who are using the BLM movement to score points for their candidate on these forums.

I am laughing my ass of at this OP. What sanctimonious bullshit it presents.

[whatchamacallit]

69. +billions

[Bobbie Jo]

76. Well here is the Sanders group "listening" to BLM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=27165

[Scootaloo]

85. Yup, and Patrisse Cullors was very definitely heard loud and clear n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

87. Good.

That thread is an embarrassment.

[Scootaloo]

88. Is it, now?

Cullors was heard. She demanded silence, commanded people to listen to her, and when she had their attention... she called Sanders and O'Malley uppity and vowed to disrupt further dialogue.

And then her audience responded, after having heard her.

Can you tell me why such a statement from Cullors is entitled to a positive response? Or do you believe that the audience is simply not to be afforded their own voices and agency? Is this a one-way thing?

Because I have to tell you, if I'm expected to sit in shameful silence while someone who does not know me at all deigns to deliver abuse and invective at me, well, that's just not going to happen. I wouldn't expect anyone else to accept that sort of shit, after all.

[Bobbie Jo]

91. It's called a protest

look it up.

Protests are loud and in your face, and they had better damn well listen to these people rather than contnue to talk at them. LISTEN.

As far as the why...


[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Oh, and "uppity," nice touch.

Yes, that thread was an embarrassment.

[Scootaloo]

96. Actually, it's a statement from an interview with "This Week In Blackness."

If you want to discuss the protest we can do that, but at the moment, we're discussing the response to what Patrisse Cullors said in an interview with an internet media outlet.

And yes, that is what she said about Sanders and O'Malley. They were not "humble enough." O'Malley gave up his whole segment to Tia Oso and her group. He ceded the stage to the protesters, let them set the frame and debate, and responded to them as they asked him to. No, he certainly wasn't perfect in his responses, but fuck's sake, he gave the protesters exactly what they wanted, and Cullors still declares it "not humble enough."

Listening wasn't "humble enough." Ceding his platform to the protest wasn't 'humble enough." Having them lead the discussion wasn't "humble enough." O'Malley bent over backwards to accommodate and engage the protest, and for doing so, he is still sneered at for not being "humble enough"

So what, in the wide wide world, does Patrisse Cullors regard as "humble enough"? I don't think she actually has an actual standard for this. That is, absolutely nothing that either candidate could have done, would have satisfied Cullors' need to see them "humble."

And then after that, she vowed her organization would move to disrupt all further debates. Which I suppose would bring us to the topic of protests, so if you want to try that, we can do it.

Bottom line is, as worthy as Black Lives matter absolutely is, as important as the cause is... what Patrisse Cullors said in that interview was really asinine. and if you expect people to simply take an asinine statement and hail it as indisputable, awesome truth just because Patrisse Cullors said it... well, you've got a pretty interesting perspective, if that's the case.

[Bobbie Jo]

97. Absolutely

Take the doubling down to the next level.

Humble:

1hum·ble
\ˈhəm-bəl also chiefly Southern ˈəm-\
adjective
: not proud : not thinking of yourself as better than other people
: given or said in a way that shows you do not think you are better than other people
: showing that you do not think of yourself as better than other people

1hum·ble
\ˈhəm-bəl also chiefly Southern ˈəm-\
adjective
: not proud : not thinking of yourself as better than other people
: given or said in a way that shows you do not think you are better than other people
: showing that you do not think of yourself as better than other people
Full Definition
hum·bler \-b(ə lər\ hum·blest \-b(ə ləst\
1 :not proud or haughty :not arrogant or assertive.

Keep it up with the dismissive attitude and arrogant language, this has been discussed, explained, and re-explained ad infinitum. Bottom line, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING. You continue to want to tell these people YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Calling them "asinine," "stupid," "idiots," "thugs," "rude," etc... is the epitome of not getting it. (pulled straight out of that trainwreck of a thread alone)

Keep it up...

[Scootaloo]

99. Patrisse Cullors is not a "them."

I am speaking of one particular person and their one particular statement made by that person. And yes, I am dismissive of that statement, because it is an asinine and insulting statement. I do not know the woman, beyond what I read her saying. And this time, what she said was asinine.

She said the candidates were not "humble enough." Well, okay, so the question must be asked - what is Patrisse Cullors' standard for "humble enough"?

O'Malley brought Tia Oso and her group on stage. he gave them the center, let them take the klead, and made the entirity of his piece about them.

That wasn't "humble enough." So what is?

I ask this question and your response is to try to shout me into silence. It really doesn't work so well in a text-based medium, I'm afraid.

[Bobbie Jo]

103. No one is silencing you, obviously

It's all been said and whitesplained into the ground. You've read through all these threads as much as I have. if this is still your point of contention then we're at an impasse.

Bottom line...

I have been speaking to the asinine comnents coming out of the BLM thread in the Sanders group. You want to continue to defend them. That's as far as we're going here.

Keep it up, you guys are doing a bang up job. Really.

[Scootaloo]

104. I know, thus "try" rather than "succeed."

The point being that a rapid-fire splatter of invective is much less effective in text than in face to face.

The point I'm making to you is that you cannot expect people to give no response. The "problem" you had with that thread initially, was that people in there dared to respond at all. Evidently, Patrisse Cullors' claims that O'Malley and Sanders "weren't humble enough" should be met only with meek nods, downcast eyes, and a mumbled chorus of "Yessum. We're sorry." seems you really want to have a standard of privilege for yourself that you want to deny others.

Kind of an odd expectation, coming from someone speaking so vociferously for Black Lives Matter protests.

If you think I support and endorse every word uttered on the thread you're linking to, that's because you're making some really big presumptions. You didn't bother asking me what I thought of what people are saying in there, you simply presumed that you could determine it for me because, hey, I'm supporting a candidate you don't like, so all your assumptions about me must be true.

Are there embarrassing posts? Yes, there certainly are. And in fact those posts - between the fist-thumping internet badass proclamations and the victim-whining - are a major reason I'm nowhere to be found in there. The other major reason is that all the other posts - the ones with good points, good arguments - are already saying what I would have said.

Does that make the entire thread embarrassing? Nope. And certainly not for the reason that people there dared respond.

[SunSeeker]

41. K & R

[Enthusiast]

48. Completely unrecommended.

[get the red out]

49. Thanks for the insight

I am white and I need to hear your perspective as an individual, and as someone voicing the thoughts of other African Americans.

I have appreciated President Obama like no other President in my 51 years on this planet. I just don't have many, if any, complaints about him.

I believe that the success of the Democratic Party rests on the shoulders of minority people. Since I am burned out on white guys in power, I don't think that is a bad thing at all. It is way too easy for people like me to miss important issues because of being unable to know what minorities in this country go through. We really need to listen to their voices to learn.

[BeyondGeography]

51. Another mistake white liberals make is thinking all black protests are equally valid

They're not. Saturday was counterproductive and incoherent. Incoherent in that Sanders and O'Malley are both friendly to BLM's stated cause and on the record with specific policies that respond to BLM's demands. In fact, if you look at their demands and match it up with what Bernie has been saying, it's hard to see why they wouldn't endorse Sanders.

For instance (from BLM's website):

-We will also demand, through the network, that the federal government discontinue its supply of military weaponry and equipment to local law enforcement. And though Congress seems to finally be considering measures in this regard, it remains essential to monitor the demilitarization processes and the corporate sectors that financially benefit from the sale of military tools to police.

...And we will advocate for a decrease in law-enforcement spending at the local, state and federal levels and a reinvestment of that budgeted money into the black communities most devastated by poverty in order to create jobs, housing and schools. This money should be redirected to those federal departments charged with providing employment, housing and educational services.

For all the talk about the supposed great wall between social and economic justice, there is a strong economic justice component in BLM's demands. And Sanders has also been very vocal about de-militarizing police forces. Saturday could have been the time when both sides, BLM and Sanders in particular, built positive momentum, because they have been saying exactly the same things. This was a missed opportunity and it wasn't the candidates who blew it.

[cantbeserious]

52. Know That KOS Is A HRC Supporter - What Better Way To Derail Other Campaigns - Foment Controversy

eom

[nc4bo]

57. And if Bernie is the kind of candidate that I think he is

He can use this as this as an opportunity and become a stronger, more trusted candidate.

It's his call.

[cantbeserious]

61. No Doubt - That Said - This Does Appear To Have Been A Setup

eom

[Jester Messiah]

59. Gonna cross post this from another thread... here's how this goes:

Person A: Bernie Sanders hasn't done anything for black people! He doesn't care about people of color!
Person B: Yes he does, here's why, here are historic facts to support.
Person A: Why are you dismissing my concerns, you racist!?

[nc4bo]

60. Keyword: Historic. People basically are saying over and over again

That this is 2015.

Bernie can do this but he's going to have to work at it and the real silver lining is he has plenty of time. He needs to get it together NOW, eventually all that time will run out and his efforts will look like typical political pandering.

[cherokeeprogressive]

62. Nailed It. n/t

[seveneyes]

66. Exactly right

It has to be intentional because there is no other excuse or reason other than sabotage.

[geek tragedy]

70. That is a very crude caricature of African-Americans. But, I guess if you want Bernie's

movement to retain its current composition (and ceiling of support) by all means just keep telling black people that they're a bunch of willfully ignorant whiners who throw accusations of racism around recklessly.

[Jester Messiah]

72. Your words, not mine. [nt]

[Humanist_Activist]

81. Why are you assuming Person A is African-American?

Not saying some Sanders supporters aren't racist assholes, but I just experienced almost this exact exchange, outside of direct accusations of racism, just about a half hour ago.

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. Fail ...

point to a single post stating Bernie hasn't done anything for Black people or that he doesn't care about people of color. {I know ... I know ... it's implied}

But the dialogue really goes more like this:

Person A: "Bernie is missing me because of his focus on econopmics over the issues that are most important to me."

Person B: "Yes he has ... He marched with Martin and economic justice is in your best interest."

Person A: "Granted he marched and he has voted right on some bills, but his campaign's focus on economics concerns me."

Person B: "Why are you saying Bernie hasn't done anything for Black people or that he doesn't care about people of color? He marched with Martin and voted right on some bills all his life!"

Person A: "Okay, what about my economic primacy concern?"

Person B: "I told you! Economic justice is best for you!"

Person A: "Why are you dismissing my concerns?"

Person B: "Don't call me a racist!"

Person A: "I didn't!"

Person B: "Yes you did ... you implied it."

[Triana]

63. Another perspective or two:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=464491

http://www.sevenbowie.com/2015/07/memewrong_blmright/

[SidDithers]

65. DU rec...

You see it anytime some DUer brings out Bruce Dixon or Glen Ford, at Black Agenda Report, to criticize Obama.

It's exactly what you've described in the OP.

Well said.

Sid

[Sancho]

71. Did you see this thread? This is why economic justice not the issue...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141152033

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

75. Many of us POC here at DU have been trying to say this for years. Many white liberals have

problems with race. Serious, very serious problems.

And the issue is that they are unwilling to listen. That's the saddest part.

[CANDO]

101. Whites make up 60% of the Democratic Party

Blacks just 22%. How the heck does 22% represent any kind of backbone? And the true backbone has been almost forever the Union vote and financial backing. People been smoking some weird shit lately. With a truly diverse party, all of our constituencies matter.

[bravenak]

102. We show up dedicatedly and no win without us.

Like the right and the anti abortion vote except way more important. You guys always matter, we don't. It's time for us to matter too.

[MADem]

106. You're going to win a general election without black and latino voters? Not happening. nt

[PatrickforO]

107. Good point. Let people vent and then go from there.

Because if people who look like me, especially kids, were being killed over and over and over by cops and nothing is being done about it at all by the establishment for years, I'd be pretty focused on that issue.

Racism is profound here in the United States, and even whites who consider themselves non-racist can inadvertently be racist.

I wonder why, though, that BLM isn't more actively going after the current Congress and Administration for some fixes NOW.

I also must point out here that if we become divided, we are playing into the hands of the Koch brothers and the rest of the oligarchs.

Bernie could really win this thing, and if he does it will probably make life better for millions of Americans maybe for quite a few years to come. If Clinton wins, it will be more of the same neoliberal crap we've had since 1980. Nickel and diming us to death, busting unions, driving wages down, ripping off pensions, cutting programs that actually help Americans. And if one of the Republicans wins, it will be the same neoliberal crap doubled down.

I can understand well that if your kids are dying, everything else stops mattering much until you get that problem solved. So let's start working together to solve it. I went on BLM's website and looked at their demands, and then I've read some stuff about how BLM activists are meeting with a few mayors.

But what's the agenda moving forward? First thing is you want it to stop; we all do. But what does that mean in terms of changing policy agendas from the Obama Administration? What does that mean in terms of specific legislation to ask for from members of the US Congress? What about state legislatures? How can pressure be applied to state legislators, as well as county and municipal governments to alleviate the situation? And what is the media strategy? The social media strategy? Are you planning any marches? Like on DC? Or maybe in some of these towns where the outrages have happened? By the way, how is the movement financing itself? Is there a goal for donations to allow BLM to do some media stuff and get the word out to more people?

Is there an economic strategy? Because if you hit the capitalists in the pocketbook with effective boycotts, you 'de facto' enlist them in the cause, because they will begin pressuring the same politicians you are pressuring - they don't want to lose money. Remember the Montgomery Bus Boycott? That WORKED.

The demands on the BLM site are fine - I expect most Americans could get behind them. I read them and I am behind them. Absolutely. But now what are we gonna DO? Because honestly, disrupting two Democratic candidates before the primary season even starts isn't gonna help very much if the goal is to actually solve the problem of innocent kids getting killed by cops because they are black. Solving that requires a pretty concerted effort to pressure those in power to make some positive stuff happen.

I mean, I've been active in getting some things done, and the first thing you DO is to sit down and say OK who can we pressure and get the greatest effect? What specifically should we ask of them? Then you pressure to make that happen while at the same time setting the next goal(s).

See, I was disappointed with Cullors because she doesn't seem to have any plan except to disrupt debates. I don't know what her background is, don't really care, but if you really want change, then disrupting debates isn't gonna help very much. I'm sorry because I'd be doing the same thing, or be inclined to. Protests, riots, uprisings? You bet - I have Irish Catholic roots and we've been there done that. But alas, it doesn't work. Boycotts work. Political pressure works. Ad campaigns work.

Oh, and by the way, if there is an organized effort, I will happily help - I'm not just sitting back here saying oh good luck. Nope. I will help.

However, I will not respond very well to disruptive heckling at what I perceive is the only candidate who cares enough about this racism to act to end it. And you know, if any Democratic candidate needs black people to help get elected, which is true, then it is ALSO true that black people need some other allies to get rid of this police violence.