2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumVery Disheartening
I'm a not so old 57 year old white man...I grew up in a household with photos of FDR and JFK in the living room...a Wisconsinite whose heroes were Fightin' Bob Lafollette, and the Teamsters who led the Minneapolis General Strikes of 1934, Gaylord Nelson, Hubert Humphrey (Wisconsin's 3rd Senator from across the river), Aldo Leopold, Henry Wallace and all the other great Progressives. Voted for Carter in '76 and 80...got excited about Mondale/Ferraro in '84, caucused for Jesse Jackson in '88 and voted for Dukakis, will never forget my two oldest children taking turns as I held them on my shoulder to catch a glimpse of Bill&Hillary Clinton and Al&Tipper Gore in 1992 at a county fair in Farmersburg, Iowa.
I voted for Clinton again in 96, was stunned and heartbroken when the election was stolen from us in 2000 and equally stunned when the Smirking Chimp somehow got reelected in 2004...I'll never forget my dad's excitement/pride and exuberance when Barack Obama was elected...he was influenced deeply by his brief brush with Jim Crow laws while stationed in Jacksonville, FL during WW2. He never thought he would live to see a Black man or woman become president of the USA...he thought our prejudices ran too deep...Dad died two months after Obama's election.
Dad always thought that most of our country's problems could be solved by eliminating income inequality. He thought giving all Americans access to education, health care and a decent income was the key to our problems. He might have been naive, he might have been unrealistic but he sure as hell wasn't a racist.
Like me, Dad would have supported Bernie Sanders....and if Bernie Sanders didn't win the nomination he (like I) would have wholeheartedly supported whoever the Democratic candidate was/is. Unfortunately it has become very disheartening to now realize that us old time Progressives (like me and the old man) are looked at as fools, racists and unrealistic idiots by a large segment of the Democratic Party. I am not looking forward to the primaries.
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longship
(40,416 posts)A great narrative. Personal stories informs people as much as any political action.
I salute you, sir.
brush
(61,033 posts)Most of us don't think you, or Bernie, are fools, racists and unrealistic idiots.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I'm a tad older and grew up in Minnesota. The rest sounds much like my upbringing.
Welcome to DU.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)It's a great group of people, very positive and supportive and we have Everything Bernie in there. Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1280
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)I've been lurking here since the day DU was created I should receive a free complimentary Membership. 
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)You DON'T have to kick in to DU to join a group. So, go on in!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Trying to get a cover charge at the door.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Great suggestion though, Le Taz Hot.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Erase erase.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I helped out a few and an anonymous donor did the same for me when I lost my job.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)TahitiNut bought me stars. I miss him.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We've lost some good ones.
Some are no longer with us and some have just moved on.
blm
(114,656 posts).
onehandle
(51,122 posts)And you are 'not looking forward to the primaries.'
Interesting.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)nope, not at all. The Democratic Party that I imagine should have at it's core the continued expansion of the New Deal and The Great Society...I have no time for the "I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal" nonsense that seems to have taken over our Party. I think the Democratic Party should be fiscally progressive/liberal and socially progressive/liberal with no kowtowing to Wall Street or Big Business. I remember the awful primary fights of 2008...if Bernie's support has legs this one will be worse than the last one. I'll vote for Clinton and I guaraneffingtee I will enthusiastically support her in the general election.. but I remember the PUMA's and I fear what they will do if Sanders remains strong.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)hell, I'm scared shitless!!!!!!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)where one stands depends on where one sits.
I, too, am concerned. I suspect that should Bernie NOT win the Democratic nomination, the better half of DU:Bernie will, either, write him in, or not vote on the 2016 General Election Presidential Ballot (if one takes them at their word ... e.g., "I will never vote for Hillary"/"I will no longer vote the lesser of two evils"
Additional, or rather, further ... I am, also, concerned that should Bernie win the Democratic nomination, African-American campaign workers/voters will be less than enthused ... NOT because of Bernie, per se; but rather, because of the prospect of working with/along side of Bernie supporters (An actual comment made during a gathering of 50+ politically and civically active, African-American professionals).
So, again ... I am concerned as well.
artislife
(9,497 posts)Of PoC as I am mixed brown and white and the progressive side of the party. I honestly wasn't aware of how few PoC have lead voices. Most of my activities I do with race is brown--Latino and South Asians. I just thought all these mini groups with their number one and two issues but with 3 through 10 being a common ground among the progressives. Economy, civil, ecology and other issues in the same vein.
I make waves in other sites when I see the post about the Dalai Llama saying that a Western woman will save the world. I say " I agree and I think she will be a Black woman." I do that because even I am aware that 90% envision a white middle class, college educated woman with that one adjective.
I think a lot of people believe they are not racist. But they are using the comparison of idiots waving confederate flags. What is hard is to realize how in every day life, we live a life that is white centric. I am standing by belief when our group allows that we are fallible and have even more to go, most of us will walk through that door. This is the detail work, the fine tuning of watching our own deep beliefs. Most people don't want to feel bad about themselves and want to acknowledged for the good work that they have already done and continue to do. But we have another deep jump to make.
Lets make it so.
So I have spent the last 4 days wondering if I could work with some of the supporters. I choose to believe I can.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I'm a strong Bernie supporter, but I am under no illusions that he will win the primary. I just don't think he has a chance given our current political system. However, I believe the issues that he brings up and on which he campaigns are important, and having him in the race guarantees that they will be discussed. That being said, I will undoubtedly vote for Hillary or whoever wins the nomination because the thought of any of the Republican clowns running the country is too horrifying to contemplate, and I feel certain that the vast majority of DUers feel the same. I would hope that if by some outside chance Bernie wins the nomination, you would do likewise.
Primaries are for hashing things out, but when push comes to shove, we have a common enemy, and it sure isn't Bernie, Hillary or any of the other Democratic candidates.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the thought of the alternative to a Democratic Presidency is too horror to countenance ... However, I can only by what has been written.
BTW, I agree that the issues Bernie is raising are very important and should be discussed and addressed by the Democratic candidates.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The disrespect shown to AA posters is simply wrong.
This black woman is an activist who is a Democrat and knowledgeable on everything that is going on in her state, obviously.
Why dismiss her?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Oh, right, he's a Bernie guy.
Didn't skinner tell you in ATA that we need to welcome new folks?
This forum is for everyone, it's not Hillary's clubhouse.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Funny how some are so ready to quote from ATA.
Interesting.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We're just full of questions tonight.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)break it up guys/gals just happy to be here.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)
Welcome to DU, Roy!
demwing
(16,916 posts)you keep using that word. I don't think that it means what you think that it means.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)No one sees you or your dad that way.
We were indeed taught economics would.make all equal and it sounds good so we believed it.
Black america has only been allowed into the game since right around the time you and I were born.
The results are now in and they show our good intentions didn't provide the needed results.
Its not just economics or this shit would be over.
So we weren't evil or stupid or racist to think that we were just wrong.
When you are wrong you try something else.
That's what everyone is saying I think.
Stay on course your dad was a good guy doing what he thought was right.
What better thing is there to be?
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)but we weren't "just wrong"...eliminating income inequality is absolutely necessary...to decide that it should be put on the back burner because of other issues is just nonsense. We CAN multi-task. We can address income inequality while addressing other issues that are every bit as important...we don't need to prioritize these issues we need to act on each one.
concreteblue
(626 posts)As I posited in another OP, how do we have the necessary discussions without going down the rabbit holes so easily exploited by those willing to do so on BOTH sides?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm sorry because that certainly isn't what is being said. Not that I have seen.
concreteblue
(626 posts)Seriously. I have seen and appreciated your contributions in the past.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in a bubble where he is personalizing the questioning of his preferred candidate ...to be an attack on him.
The "being called racist" is the give-away. No one has said that about Bernie (though, it has been said about some of Bernie's supporters ... for good cause.)
concreteblue
(626 posts)I am also wondering about the points he raised. I don't feel attacked, I am just asking "WTF, are we not all trying to achieve the same goals?"
And these issues are easily exploited by those with an agenda...on both sides of the aisle.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)No ... We are not trying to achieve the same goals ... when we are told that one goal is subordinate to or will be solved by address an intersecting, but different goal.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)Most of the offensive stuff has been from people who can't keep from berating others for daring to have opinions or trying to shame people for not thinking like they want them to. You talking about your experience and beliefs and who you support without becoming irate when others might not agree is cool and the farthest thing from racism I can think of.
Hang in there.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I think naive might be the right word to put it. They thought that a rising tide would lift all boats, and that included minorities. I think we've seen that's not exactly the case, but I wouldn't call it racist.
I don't think the people here would call that racist either. They're just tired of that naive stance being the only one the Democratic Party takes seriously. They should definitely address it to both Sanders and Clinton though, not just Bernie. I know enough of her supporters to know that many think she agrees with that old way of thinking...and the Clintons have certainly played into that for 25 years. They were Blue Dog/New/Southern Democrats, and some of the people that appealed to still support them. People here just don't realize that since too many of those types don't post here.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)with WHIP and free trade in the middle and more free trade and gutting organized labor on the back end.
I'll agree economics isn't the whole puzzle but disagree that the rising tide really ever came in but rather a series of hurricanes to smash most of the boats to shit along with extraction schemes to steal from the poor and workers and give to the wealthy
I also take exception that the party takes economic justice seriously and that it attracts blue dogs. Exception to the point of wondering what in the world you are talking about when they are the forces pushing the party to the corporations and to be conservative as possible.
demwing
(16,916 posts)not the neediest.
Let's try economic justice before we announce it DOA, right?
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)agreed...the Democratic Party hasn't really stood for economic justice since the '60s to pretend otherwise is to ignore 30+ years of support for so-called fiscal conservatism and Reaganomics within the Democratic Party. The economic policies that I support have been completely ignored for way too long. Now we have a candidate willing to stand behind those views and policies and we are now told that we are racists for thinking that economic inequality is one of the most important issue of our times.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I'm not sure if what's commonly considered southern economic populism is actually economic justice...Bernie's best plans are things like free college and single payer healthcare, and I think we'd both agree that Blue Dogs would certainly not support that. But a lot of those people support raising minimum wages, oppose right to work laws and free trade deals, and are social conservatives. I know quite a few of them! Most Democrats in Kentucky fall into that category and it's frustrating to deal with.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)liberal though of course you have a solid amount of both the fiscally conservative/social moderates and economic moderate to liberals that are socially conservative but among politicians outside the metro council are straight Turd Way but then a lot of Republicans masses are more the libertarian set while the officials are pretty much Teaidiots.
I understand the frustration though big picture, you can run into conservative one way or the other when not both no matter who you talk to demographically, I usually knock on doors in the Newburg and Poplar Level areas if you are familiar and you do find a lot of folks are pretty conservative socially though not racially (though tough on crime and the drug war find strong support which I find between ironic and nonsensical) being black areas but a lot of the churchy shit so homophopia and anti choice though they are pretty fair on education and economic matters related to jobs, taxes, health care. Gun control is seemingly a looser across about all demographics and areas, I know more black concealed carry folks than white.
Coalitions are a mess with all kinds of directions being pulled at with about anything.
Outside the Ville, all bets that aren't Republican are off and so the other 4 congressional districts are TeaPubliKlan though I'd say Lexington is swingish though I think a strong economically liberal might be able to make some hay because there are so many poor folks but all the party does is throw up Turd Way types and voters go with the genuine Republican article.
NBachers
(19,438 posts)already like you're a friend of mine. Don't let anyone prevent you from posting or speaking your mind; I like what you have to say.
I can't figure this place out sometimes.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)yep...it's all quite confusing
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)comes with the white skin, nothing you can do about it - that's the fashion of the day.
It will change only after we get wrecked in yet another key election due to "white flight" from the Democratic Party, as we learn the hard way that no one likes to be cast as a villain, especially when they are put in a no-way-out rhetorical trap in the process.
Hating on white people is one of the more significant mistakes the modern Democratic Party is making. Attacking the ethnicity of 2/3rds of voters is no way to get anybody elected.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Even those of us that spent a lifetime shoulder to shoulder and arm in arm working for equality and justice for everyone, are now somehow fodder for this kind of shotgun style "racist" accusation.
Disheartening beyond the pale.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)A white person feels attacked and mildly offended!
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)Still tending to the wounded from the last election wipeout, which was caused in no small part by attacking white people who make up 2/3rds of the electorate.
I don't believe I've ever encountered a less intelligent political strategy, or one so guaranteed to be a catastrophic failure. A Democratic Party which can only elect candidates in its own bastions is going to be of no use to you or anybody else.
demwing
(16,916 posts)try empathy
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)guess what I think of that.
demwing
(16,916 posts)and that your response lacked basic empathy. You don't, however, give a damn about empathy, because your goal here is not kindness and improved communications, your goal is to score Internet argument points so that you can find security in the belief that you're better than the people with whom you disagree. There...I tried telepathy..
Will you now try a litte empathy?
Response to 99Forever (Reply #37)
Bobbie Jo This message was self-deleted by its author.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)And your assumption is all your own. Maybe if you stopped thinking of skin color as your ethnicity it might help you get a clue. Quit with the poutrage and end your little pity party OK?
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)or perhaps I should say people of European descent are just as much of an ethnic group as people of African descent or Asian descent. That doesn't make any one better or worse. It just is. None of us can alter the skin we were born with, so we need to find whatever common ground we can and move forward. The attacks on people of good will coming from all sides of the racial divide is destructive.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)European, African and Asian are not an ethnicities. That's like saying Latino is an ethnicity. I' sure you don't get that either. Quit worrying about being attacked. You won't die from it.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)but thanks for your concern.
I don't feel attacked, just trying to find some common ground here. My parents raised me to disregard color and evaluate people on their individual merits, and that's what I've tried to do throughout my life, which got me attacked by white people in the '60s and mistrusted by black people now. None of that changes how I look at the world or deal with the people I meet. I've always believed that black lives matter, and it's kind of in my DNA since my ancestors were Quaker abolitionists.
I guess what I'm trying to say is we're on the same side, so we need to stop fighting. Not you and me personally, but all of us.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)Again, European, African and Asian are not ethnicities. White is not an ethnicity. Black is not an ethnicity. find out what these really are and then we can find some common ground.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)The point I'm trying to make is that none of us - African-American, European-American, Latino-American, Native-American, Somoan-American, Asian-American, whatever - is a bloc. We are all individuals. Yes, we have cultures (maybe I should have said that instead of ethnicity, I don't know), but we are individuals first and foremost. Not all black people are good, not all white people are bad and vice versa. There are bigots and intolerant people across all racial boundaries. We probably can't eliminate that by a presidential declaration or whatever, but people of good will can learn to work together individually, which is what I would like to see happen here without all the sniping back and forth. Maybe it's too much to ask with feelings so justifiably raw now, but it's a goal.
I mean, didn't even Barack Obama say "There is not a liberal America and a conservative America—there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America—there's the United States of America."
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)think about what you just said and do something about it. What are you talking about quotation marks? I don't even understand anymore. I'm really not trying to just piss you off. You just don't get it. You are not a bad person and you are not wrong. It's just that you keep approaching working with others through your filter that has never considered anything outside of your personal experience. Really. You don't know. Try to figure it out by looking outside yourself.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Maybe I'm just too old to understand where I'm going wrong here with you. I'm on your side and trying - I hope that's enough.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)There are those of us who disagree with the assertion that Sanders can win a General Election, but it doesn't mean we treat either you or your candidate with disdain, other than in response to equally intolerant attacks on us or our candidate.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)my choice would be between two acceptable candidates who agree on a lot more than they disagree. Thoughts on what is achievable, how to do it, which tradeofffs to accept do differ, but ideology is a lot closer than all the election noise suggests. Who'd likely be more successful would be my big deciding factor here.
Now, I don't like some of what Jim Webb is revealing and wouldn't want HIM to "pull an Obama." Taking precious interview time to sympathize with the plight of misunderstood southern white men? (Anxiety that they're outnumbered by the combo of all minorities plus white women? Get over it.) Belief that the Democratic Party is "way far to the left?" Really? Its adjustment from the position it's held in the center for the past 30 years is "way far"? Already? When we've hardly begun the job of fixing, doing, building?
CBHagman
(17,493 posts)...I've found over-50 (and over-65) voters very much at the heart of the action. Do your circumstances allow you to gather with like-minded people in your area and get active in registering, organizing, etc.? People do value you; the issue is finding them.
TBF
(36,665 posts)I'm just a little younger than you with the same background. It was different in Wisconsin in those days - I was born in the mid 60s. My family had farmers and union workers. My dad belonged to a union and we painted strike signs with him ... those days are really a distant memory now.
It's funny that Lafollette was a republican and yet he was more progressive than the neo-libs we are dealing with now. I too am supporting Bernie Sanders. There is no one else running that even comes close to my values 
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)because everyone's racist, and conservatives actually admit to their racism, while liberals don't. Therefore liberals are more racist than conservatives. This was posited a year or so ago.
Now Sanders and his suporters are racists because he wants to improve the lives of all working peole instead of just blacks. It's pretty hard to argue with people so far removed from reality.
And now, as you mention, the party will turn its back on the candidate who has peple all fired up. Then after another election disaster (not for president - Hillary will win easily - but down the ballot), liberals will of course be blamed for not being sufficiently excited by a pro-drilling, pro-fracking, pro-wall street, anti-union, anti-public school, pro-TPP candidate.
I am your age and glad I won't have to live through the end of the party and complete corporatization of the US.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I mean, I support Hlllary, and have been told I am "third-wayer", a DINO, and even "right wing" (mostly indirectly, but occasionally directly).
The fact is, most of that kind of vitriol is isolated in a very small portion of folks here.
If it gets to you, step back from this forum for a day or two.
The idea that income inequality is responsible for all our ills is one deeply rooted in left wing thought. I think most contemporary scholarship shows the weakness of that thinking, but I think we can all agree that helping to lessen income inequality is a our top priority. But don't get bent out of shape when other folks want to express the idea that reducing income equality is not enough by itself. I don't think you'll find many people think your ideas (or your Dad's) are racist, but you must leave room for those who think you might not be giving the issue enough of its own identity, even if you ultimately disagree.
In the end, we agree on a LOT more than what we disagree on.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)I'm baffled by the attempt to separate two of the most important issues we face...addressing racism and income inequality are two sides of the same coin...what are the motives of those that want to separate the two? I'm tired of having to support Democrats who claim the mantle of fiscal conservatives...I want to support a candidate who is a social liberal and a fiscal liberal tired of the DLC crowd.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts).. rooted in fairly traditional Marxist criticism.
However, while the issues are entwined, racism is not merely an expression of the frustration of the working classes as they are encouraged to think of the "other" as competing for "scarce" resources and jobs. That's the usual Marxist analysis and it's not wrong, but is IS incomplete. Racism is not merely a symptom of racism. Racism also contributes to economic inequality, and deeply held cultural racism doesn't disappear with reduced inequality.
If you listen to Bernie, for example, pretty every speech about race bends back to economics. That's classic Marxist analysis, which is not surprising, given Bernie's background and ideology. But I think that's misguided. I think many people, AA's in particular, want more recognition of what racism means to people every day. Step back and consider that. Ultimately, you can disagree, of course, but I think you have to recognize that maybe, just maybe, those folks have a legitimate point of view.
But their opinion that that Bernie and/or his supporters are not giving race enough recognition in the Struggle doesn't mean that they think you're "racist."
Also, I think it depends on what you mean by "fiscal conservative" and "fiscal liberal." I am a fairly classic Keynesian. Paul Krugman is my hero. I favor fairly aggressive intervention in the economy through fiscal and monetary policy. But I also think we need to adhere to Keynes' principal that we need to extend and withdraw stimulus when appropriate so we can keep out powder dry and intervene in a BIG way when necessary. The 2009 stimulus was far too small, IMO.