HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Retired » Retired Forums » 2016 Postmortem (Forum) » The one thing that will s...

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:26 PM

 

The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters

I honestly thought it was a DU phenomena. The over the top insulting, belittling, swarming any Hillary post. Apparently not, as the the following blog posted on 7/28/15 seems to indicate.

By Milt Shook

Let me start off by saying I love #Bernie Sanders. He’s a good man, with a good political sense in many ways, although he is in no way perfect. He’s a really good Senator for the state of Vermont, and he’d also make a great candidate for president, except for two things…

The first one he can fix. He has a low profile, and most people don’t know who he is. I know this comes as a shock to his supporters, who drool over him as if he was a supermodel at a frat party, but most people really don’t know who he is. That can be addressed, but it would mean that he start with him and his supporters introducing himself to voters, to increase his name recognition and profile, rather than giving stump speeches. No one can only give stump speeches for 8-9 months and expect to do well in primaries; it doesn’t work that way. To win in the primaries, you have to build to a crescendo, and the way you do that is by getting your name out there first and listening to people and finding out what matters most to them and honing your campaign to meet that.

See, here’s the thing people need to realize about primaries; they’re not actually elections. You’re not choosing the president; you’re choosing the Democrat best able to beat whichever Republican emerges from that Klown Kar. It doesn’t matter what your ideals are or what a candidate says on the issues, it’s about who can win. Even if Sanders was to win, he’d still have the party create the platform. Passion doesn’t sell during primary season; voters are looked to competence and confidence. Having big crowds is great for the image to an extent, but when the candidate seems shocked by every huge crowd he sees, the positive effect is blunted. Consider Howard Dean in 2004; there was lots of enthusiasm for Dean, and he was looking to be a shoo-in as an upset winner of the Democratic nomination, until he screamed.

With that scream, every issue position didn’t change. What changed was his image as cool, calm and collected. And then…

This is the second thing that could sink Bernie Sanders; his followers. It wasn’t the scream that sunk Dean, it was his hardcore followers, who went into “defense” mode and started trashing everyone who wasn’t as “passionate” about him as they were. And the same misguided fervor is what could sink Sanders.

Sanders’ hardcore far left progressives (known on this blog as PUBs, or the Progressive Unicorn Brigade) who think that whatever or whoever they support is wonderful and perfect and will make the entire world a great big rainbow full of singing and peace and all that crap. That part is fine; I have no problem with idealism. It’s a little sappy at times, but it’s harmless. What’s not harmless is that these followers have a tendency to belittle and smack down those who aren’t as enthusiastic as they are. They are preachy and whiny and they feel like the only way they can win is to tear down the other candidates running against them, which is the opposite of true.

All Democrats are on the same team. The ultimate goal of every Democratic candidate, including Bernie Sanders, is to make sure Democrats get and keep the White House. I know for a fact that Bernie feels the same way; I’ve even heard him say that. He’s running as a Democrat because he doesn’t want to run an independent campaign that would make it a lot easier for a Republican to win. We can’t afford that. And yet, in the last week, I have seen numerous professional left articles, as well as Facebook posts and Tweets from high profile Sanders supporters trashing Hillary Clinton, as if the only way Sanders can possibly win is to pull Clinton down into the mud. I even saw one prominent pro lefty Sander supporter attack Martin O’Malley, and I wonder, what would be the point of that?

To be fair, I’ve seen a few Clinton supporters do the same, but I think the ratio is about 10-to-1 in favor of Bernie, and since there are roughly five times as many Clinton supporters as Sanders supporters, in all, that

Sanders supporters need to understand, if they really want their candidate to win, alienating every other Democrat is not the way to do it. Telling, or even implying, that everyone who doesn’t support Sanders is stupid and clueless and not a “real progressive” because they don’t get sexually aroused whenever they see a Sanders bumper sticker is not the way to win. Consider the plight of Hillary Clinton in 2008. Barack Obama took a positive approach to his campaign, while Hillary supporters, who started pouty, whiny groups such as Party Unity Means Authority, better known as PUMA or 18 Million Voices, were forced to lick their wounds in second place, precisely because they were nasty.

Now, Hillary Clinton is playing it smart. She’s letting Sanders have his day and she’s on a “listening tour;” something that every serious candidate should engage in. Her demeanor this time around is as a statesperson; a rational, reasonable person who can attract enough voters to beat whoever emerges from the GOP Klown Kar. That is how you win elections; by looking like you should be president.

The GOP is our target.

The GOP is our target.

You do not win elections by tearing down opponents. The only candidate I can think of who won that way was Ronald Reagan, and only the first time. People want to elect a president who works hard and who looks like he’s up to his job. Having out of control supporters trashing everyone who doesn’t think like them is a guaranteed loser.

Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are self-righteous assholes.

If you want a progressive president, act like it, for chrissakes.

From:: The One Thing That Will Stop Bernie Sanders… His Supporters.
https://badgop.com/.../the-one-thing-that-will-stop-bernie-sanders-his-supp...

465 replies, 57251 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 465 replies Author Time Post
Reply The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters (Original post)
Sheepshank Aug 2015 OP
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #1
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #11
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #15
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #33
pnwmom Aug 2015 #149
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #165
mythology Aug 2015 #254
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #261
Plucketeer Aug 2015 #184
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #25
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #31
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #39
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #53
Larkspur Aug 2015 #201
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #409
Larkspur Aug 2015 #422
Gothmog Aug 2015 #423
Armstead Aug 2015 #50
NCTraveler Aug 2015 #130
Larkspur Aug 2015 #209
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #373
Armstead Aug 2015 #375
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #376
Armstead Aug 2015 #380
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #385
Armstead Aug 2015 #399
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #87
JDPriestly Aug 2015 #231
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #307
bravenak Aug 2015 #354
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #359
bravenak Aug 2015 #361
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #368
bravenak Aug 2015 #382
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #395
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #420
calimary Aug 2015 #435
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #436
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #437
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #378
bravenak Aug 2015 #379
blackspade Aug 2015 #394
bravenak Aug 2015 #397
blackspade Aug 2015 #442
Gothmog Aug 2015 #424
bravenak Aug 2015 #425
orpupilofnature57 Aug 2015 #426
bravenak Aug 2015 #427
JDPriestly Aug 2015 #440
bravenak Aug 2015 #441
JDPriestly Aug 2015 #453
bravenak Aug 2015 #454
JDPriestly Aug 2015 #455
bravenak Aug 2015 #459
George II Aug 2015 #77
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #163
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #383
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #372
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #384
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #387
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #389
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #400
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #413
Autumn Aug 2015 #27
JoePhilly Aug 2015 #36
Autumn Aug 2015 #48
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #169
appalachiablue Aug 2015 #434
George II Aug 2015 #84
Autumn Aug 2015 #134
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #170
Paka Aug 2015 #294
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #168
still_one Aug 2015 #79
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #83
still_one Aug 2015 #103
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #112
still_one Aug 2015 #240
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #242
still_one Aug 2015 #250
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #195
still_one Aug 2015 #203
passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #207
still_one Aug 2015 #219
still_one Aug 2015 #248
zeemike Aug 2015 #141
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #148
Puglover Aug 2015 #358
Adrahil Aug 2015 #360
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #2
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #4
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #12
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #44
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #63
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #70
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #74
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #96
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #105
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #147
Hekate Aug 2015 #106
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #109
JaneyVee Aug 2015 #45
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #72
still_one Aug 2015 #85
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #115
still_one Aug 2015 #175
7962 Aug 2015 #192
still_one Aug 2015 #208
7962 Aug 2015 #339
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #386
7962 Aug 2015 #391
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #92
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #120
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #124
still_one Aug 2015 #211
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #3
bravenak Aug 2015 #5
mmonk Aug 2015 #32
bravenak Aug 2015 #71
villager Aug 2015 #34
stevenleser Aug 2015 #37
villager Aug 2015 #42
stevenleser Aug 2015 #49
villager Aug 2015 #56
artislife Aug 2015 #101
Number23 Aug 2015 #127
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #160
Cha Aug 2015 #256
bravenak Aug 2015 #51
mmonk Aug 2015 #59
bravenak Aug 2015 #64
mmonk Aug 2015 #221
bravenak Aug 2015 #277
Armstead Aug 2015 #65
bravenak Aug 2015 #69
azurnoir Aug 2015 #47
bravenak Aug 2015 #58
azurnoir Aug 2015 #66
bravenak Aug 2015 #68
azurnoir Aug 2015 #82
bravenak Aug 2015 #86
azurnoir Aug 2015 #110
bravenak Aug 2015 #121
Name removed Aug 2015 #458
bravenak Aug 2015 #460
Name removed Aug 2015 #461
bravenak Aug 2015 #462
Name removed Aug 2015 #463
bravenak Aug 2015 #464
TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #456
bravenak Aug 2015 #457
TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #465
sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #117
bravenak Aug 2015 #123
Cha Aug 2015 #94
bravenak Aug 2015 #100
Cha Aug 2015 #116
bravenak Aug 2015 #128
Cha Aug 2015 #138
bravenak Aug 2015 #146
Cha Aug 2015 #156
Jamaal510 Aug 2015 #253
bravenak Aug 2015 #269
sheshe2 Aug 2015 #136
bravenak Aug 2015 #143
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #222
bravenak Aug 2015 #279
Cha Aug 2015 #247
bravenak Aug 2015 #298
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #186
BainsBane Aug 2015 #191
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #220
BainsBane Aug 2015 #249
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #260
BainsBane Aug 2015 #267
mcar Aug 2015 #371
freshwest Aug 2015 #416
Agschmid Aug 2015 #226
MineralMan Aug 2015 #443
BainsBane Aug 2015 #446
MineralMan Aug 2015 #447
bravenak Aug 2015 #275
freshwest Aug 2015 #224
bravenak Aug 2015 #281
Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #229
bravenak Aug 2015 #273
Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #287
bravenak Aug 2015 #291
Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #305
bravenak Aug 2015 #313
Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #322
bravenak Aug 2015 #325
MineralMan Aug 2015 #445
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #243
BainsBane Aug 2015 #255
Cha Aug 2015 #303
bravenak Aug 2015 #283
blackspade Aug 2015 #346
bravenak Aug 2015 #356
blackspade Aug 2015 #390
bravenak Aug 2015 #393
Ron Green Aug 2015 #6
BooScout Aug 2015 #7
artislife Aug 2015 #8
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #14
artislife Aug 2015 #16
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #22
artislife Aug 2015 #26
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #24
artislife Aug 2015 #28
artislife Aug 2015 #30
Agschmid Aug 2015 #111
Cha Aug 2015 #306
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #282
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #285
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #286
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #289
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #290
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #292
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #293
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #296
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #297
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #300
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #308
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #309
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #315
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #318
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #323
Agschmid Aug 2015 #55
artislife Aug 2015 #61
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #67
Agschmid Aug 2015 #93
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #97
Agschmid Aug 2015 #102
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #118
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
Agschmid Aug 2015 #125
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #129
Agschmid Aug 2015 #135
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #137
Agschmid Aug 2015 #139
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #142
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #9
artislife Aug 2015 #17
FlatBaroque Aug 2015 #18
stevenleser Aug 2015 #46
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #60
Agschmid Aug 2015 #107
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #176
stevenleser Aug 2015 #381
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #396
sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #10
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #21
sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #43
progressoid Aug 2015 #13
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #81
Frances Aug 2015 #19
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #122
neverforget Aug 2015 #304
Larkspur Aug 2015 #20
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #54
Cha Aug 2015 #80
calimary Aug 2015 #119
Number23 Aug 2015 #140
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #180
Larkspur Aug 2015 #418
azurnoir Aug 2015 #23
stevenleser Aug 2015 #62
azurnoir Aug 2015 #78
stevenleser Aug 2015 #95
azurnoir Aug 2015 #104
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #133
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #178
frazzled Aug 2015 #215
bravenak Aug 2015 #88
villager Aug 2015 #29
Cha Aug 2015 #35
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #90
Armstead Aug 2015 #38
TheProgressive Aug 2015 #40
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #187
oasis Aug 2015 #41
sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #52
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #188
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #57
Armstead Aug 2015 #73
MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #75
JackInGreen Aug 2015 #89
TM99 Aug 2015 #76
R B Garr Aug 2015 #132
TM99 Aug 2015 #225
R B Garr Aug 2015 #251
TM99 Aug 2015 #257
R B Garr Aug 2015 #377
TM99 Aug 2015 #388
R B Garr Aug 2015 #398
TM99 Aug 2015 #403
R B Garr Aug 2015 #406
TM99 Aug 2015 #408
R B Garr Aug 2015 #410
TM99 Aug 2015 #428
R B Garr Aug 2015 #429
Gloria Aug 2015 #91
Number23 Aug 2015 #98
Cha Aug 2015 #108
Number23 Aug 2015 #150
Cha Aug 2015 #167
sheshe2 Aug 2015 #173
Number23 Aug 2015 #198
sheshe2 Aug 2015 #235
truebrit71 Aug 2015 #199
Number23 Aug 2015 #204
bravenak Aug 2015 #284
Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #326
cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #210
Number23 Aug 2015 #217
cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #230
Number23 Aug 2015 #233
cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #237
Number23 Aug 2015 #241
cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #244
Number23 Aug 2015 #246
lunamagica Aug 2015 #278
Number23 Aug 2015 #299
lunamagica Aug 2015 #337
jfern Aug 2015 #270
Number23 Aug 2015 #295
jfern Aug 2015 #310
bravenak Aug 2015 #314
Number23 Aug 2015 #319
bravenak Aug 2015 #320
jfern Aug 2015 #328
bravenak Aug 2015 #332
jfern Aug 2015 #333
bravenak Aug 2015 #334
jfern Aug 2015 #335
bravenak Aug 2015 #336
Number23 Aug 2015 #317
jfern Aug 2015 #327
Number23 Aug 2015 #433
Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #432
Vincardog Aug 2015 #99
Snotcicles Aug 2015 #113
SoapBox Aug 2015 #114
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #205
jalan48 Aug 2015 #126
Agschmid Aug 2015 #131
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #144
jalan48 Aug 2015 #151
Agschmid Aug 2015 #152
jalan48 Aug 2015 #155
Agschmid Aug 2015 #158
jalan48 Aug 2015 #159
840high Aug 2015 #153
pnwmom Aug 2015 #157
Cleita Aug 2015 #145
villager Aug 2015 #154
pnwmom Aug 2015 #161
villager Aug 2015 #172
pnwmom Aug 2015 #238
artislife Aug 2015 #252
pnwmom Aug 2015 #258
artislife Aug 2015 #262
pnwmom Aug 2015 #271
jfern Aug 2015 #276
pnwmom Aug 2015 #288
Agschmid Aug 2015 #162
villager Aug 2015 #171
Agschmid Aug 2015 #174
villager Aug 2015 #177
Agschmid Aug 2015 #183
villager Aug 2015 #189
Agschmid Aug 2015 #190
villager Aug 2015 #194
Agschmid Aug 2015 #197
villager Aug 2015 #206
Agschmid Aug 2015 #218
sheshe2 Aug 2015 #245
TM99 Aug 2015 #264
seaglass Aug 2015 #340
TM99 Aug 2015 #342
seaglass Aug 2015 #345
TM99 Aug 2015 #348
seaglass Aug 2015 #349
TM99 Aug 2015 #351
seaglass Aug 2015 #355
TM99 Aug 2015 #366
Agschmid Aug 2015 #347
TM99 Aug 2015 #350
Agschmid Aug 2015 #357
TM99 Aug 2015 #362
Agschmid Aug 2015 #365
TM99 Aug 2015 #367
Agschmid Aug 2015 #369
TM99 Aug 2015 #392
Puglover Aug 2015 #370
Agschmid Aug 2015 #401
Puglover Aug 2015 #404
Agschmid Aug 2015 #411
Agschmid Aug 2015 #236
99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #164
kacekwl Aug 2015 #166
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #179
jalan48 Aug 2015 #185
BainsBane Aug 2015 #193
jalan48 Aug 2015 #202
BainsBane Aug 2015 #214
jalan48 Aug 2015 #223
Cha Aug 2015 #259
BainsBane Aug 2015 #263
Cha Aug 2015 #266
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #402
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #234
blackspade Aug 2015 #181
BainsBane Aug 2015 #200
blackspade Aug 2015 #352
SusanCalvin Aug 2015 #182
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #316
Enthusiast Aug 2015 #196
BainsBane Aug 2015 #212
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #232
Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #341
captainarizona Aug 2015 #213
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #228
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #301
bravenak Aug 2015 #302
m-lekktor Aug 2015 #216
TM99 Aug 2015 #265
m-lekktor Aug 2015 #268
TM99 Aug 2015 #272
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #324
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #311
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #330
Scruffy1 Aug 2015 #227
cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #239
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #274
artislife Aug 2015 #280
neverforget Aug 2015 #312
MisterP Aug 2015 #414
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #321
beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #329
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #419
Flying Squirrel Aug 2015 #331
reddread Aug 2015 #338
Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #343
MellowDem Aug 2015 #344
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #407
CanadaexPat Aug 2015 #353
Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #363
LWolf Aug 2015 #364
ion_theory Aug 2015 #374
Adrahil Aug 2015 #405
ion_theory Aug 2015 #448
MisterP Aug 2015 #415
ion_theory Aug 2015 #449
MisterP Aug 2015 #451
polichick Aug 2015 #412
MisterP Aug 2015 #417
Gothmog Aug 2015 #421
Vinca Aug 2015 #430
Corruption Inc Aug 2015 #431
Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #438
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #439
William769 Aug 2015 #444
artislife Aug 2015 #450
AgingAmerican Aug 2015 #452

Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:33 PM

1. I've tried to explain this ...

... for Bernie to win the primary, he has to convert LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of people who would HAPPILY vote for Hillary.

Attacking Hillary, and attacking her supporters, will not convert those people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:47 PM

11. I am sorry to say you do have an uphill climb

 

I appreciate your honest input.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:55 PM

15. I'm one of those ...

... who would happily vote for any of our candidates.

Back in 2008, I was ready to vote Hillary in the primary, ready to vote Obama too ... went Obama (I'm in NC) in the primary.

But I'd have backed Hillary just as enthusiastically in the GE if she won.

Same now.

I will be voting and pushing for "our" candidate. Period.

My issue #1, not letting the GOP take the WH like we did in 2000. That was a fucking disaster.

We can't do anything if they win the WH.

I'm not sure Bernie can win the GE. Its a reasonable concern. If he wins the primary (and he has time to flip me), I'll support him just as I would have supported Clinton ... just as I did Obama.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:11 PM

33. Reasonable

 

And agian, I appreciate the comment that seems so much more reasonable than down thread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:16 PM

149. I feel exactly the same way. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:34 PM

165. What do you mean if he has time to flip you?

If he wins the primary (and he has time to flip me), I'll support him just as I would have supported Clinton


It sounds like you still think that you might not vote for him in the GE if he wins. What does he have to do to flip you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #165)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:21 AM

254. Given the paranthetical aside is next to the primary

 

I'm pretty sure the poster means they are undecided which candidate to support in the primary. Especially since they go on to say that they would support either Hillary or Sanders if they win the primary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mythology (Reply #254)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:46 AM

261. You are probably right, but it can be read either way

I just keep seeing all these Hillary supporters saying they are so upset with Bernie supporters they no longer think they can vote for Bernie if he wins the primary. And they were harping on us because too many Bernie supporters were saying they would "NEVER" support Hillary, they would rather not vote at all. I think it's wrong for either side to say that, or even to try to use is as leverage or a threat. We all need to be grownups and vote for the dem candidate who wins the primary. It's just too damned important to keep the republicans out.

I didn't think that is what Joe was saying, but it did hit me strangely. Now that I read it your way, it makes more sense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:00 AM

184. Remember the band valiantly playing as the Titanic sank?

 

Yes, I play tuba, but I'll do anything to keep from being on THAT deck in THAT scenario. The money roster - the manifest of First Class - my name isn't gonna be there. I'm tired of travelling "steerage" and being told how fortunate I am to be there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:04 PM

25. Bernie has not attacked Hillary.

 

And all he has to do to win is convert the people that just say they support her because they don't know what else to tell the pollster on the other end of their land line.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #25)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:08 PM

31. No, its some of his supporters who are attacking her ...

... and they not only attack her, they attack her supporters.

The problem you have is that you NEED to convert her supporters. Lots and lots of them.

Its is that simple.

And if you think calling them 3rd way, DINOs, etc ... and that will get them to switch, then stick with that.

I do not think that will work.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #31)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:14 PM

39. The same thing goes on from the other side.

 


If people want a more progressive candidate then they will switch. If they are going to support Hillary just because she is Hillary then they won't switch.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #39)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:21 PM

53. That's not what I said.

YOu need to convince Hillary supporters that Bernie would win ... see, Hillary supporters already believe that she will beat ANY GOP opponent.

And you trying to make it seem she won't beat them, does nothing to make people think Bernie would.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #53)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:16 AM

201. The polls already show that Bernie can beat Republicans

 

That's why he's traveling to states other than Iowa, NH and SC and drawing big crowds. He's proving that he and his ideas have support around the nation. You don't see Hillary drawing large crowds, like Bernie is.

Bernie's UNPAID supporters will not win or lose the primary or general election for Bernie. Bernie and his campaign will.
Ditto for Hillary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Larkspur (Reply #201)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:33 PM

409. Which polls have shown that Bernie can beat the republicans? ...

 

I have only seen a single poll that has Bernie beating a single republican ... Trump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #409)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:02 PM

422. There as a poll that showed in swing states Bernie was either beating or close to beating

 

3 Republicans.

This poll showed that Bernie actually had a better chance at winning the general election than the primary.

So the meme that Bernie can't win the general election is false, which is what some of Hillary's spokespeople, like Sen. McCaskill, are trying to peddle.

The current meme is that Bernie can't win AA or Latino voters over to his cause because he can't equate economic justice with racial justice. This new meme serves Wall Street, who don't want the general public choosing someone who would have no problems putting the banksters in jail.

Whether Hillary or a Republican wins in Nov 2016, Wall Street wins and Main Street loses. It doesn't matter how many AA and Latino voters choose Hillary, their needs will be 2nd fiddle to the whims of her benefactors from Wall Street.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Larkspur (Reply #201)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:03 PM

423. It is not an attack to question whether Sanders is viable in the general election

Some candidates are better able to raise the funds necessary to complete. President Obama blew everyone away in 2008 with his small donor fundraising efforts and that made it clear that he was electable. Jeb is trying to do the same on the GOP side with his $100 million super pac.

There are many on this board who doubt that Sanders will be able to compete in a general election contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate will likely spend another billion. This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine

Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig, who founded a Super Pac to end Super Pacs, said Sanders’ renouncing Super Pacs is tantamount to “bringing a knife to a gunfight”.

“I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that he’s going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances – and he’s an enormously important progressive voice,” Lessig said.

President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac, The super pacs associated with Clinton raised $24 million and so Clinton raised $70 this quarter.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #31)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:18 PM

50. What is the difference between criticizing a candidate and "attacking"

 

And do not 80 percent of candidates and their supporters not do the same thing?

Why are Sanders supporter "special" and so different than the heated rhetoric that goes on in most political races -- especially those where peopel believe the stakes are very high?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #50)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:07 PM

130. One reason there truly is a difference.

 

Sanders would not win the primary if it were held today. His goal is to win in the not so distant future. Than means he needs to fully close the gap going into Iowa and New Hampshire. Many Biden supporters being polled will go to Hillary. They are both more establishment. That means people currently seeing Clinton as their first choice are going to have to be swayed by primary time.

The same does not hold true for Hillary although her supporters would benefit from the same advise. I think her negatives are mainly being driven by ongoing media stories.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #50)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 AM

209. Sanders supporters are being slimed, just like Howard Dean's supporters were in 2003-2004

 

Sanders is a threat to the Dem Establishment or Wall Street Dems, like Hillary. They see the crowds Sanders is drawing and know that their Turd Way b.s. is unpopular. Whether Hillary wins or a Republican in 2016, Wall Street wins and that is all they care about. Oh, yeah a few care about women's' reproductive rights, gay rights, and the environment but mainly the Dem Establishment only cares about their benefactors on Wall Street.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #50)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:26 AM

373. Please.

When some one calls Bernie a "whore", and that gets defended, get back to me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #373)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:38 AM

375. That's not defenable, and you damn well know it

 

I've seen pretty bad terms used against Sanders and against his suppoters too.

But it is not, er, appropriate to take the worst examples of behavior and use that to characterize everyone who supports particular candidates or holds particular positions.

That's just bogus strawmanning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #375)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:46 AM

376. It was defended.

It actually happened.

The post was not hidden. A jury let it stand.

And then plenty of Bernie's supporters defended it.

And hey ... you can call Hillary supporters "shills", "RINOs", and anything else you want. Put it in your OP title and maybe make it to the Greatest page.

You can repeat RW attacks too. That's a thing now.

Here's the reality.

To win the primary, Bernie will need lots and lots of converts from Hilliary's supporters. His supporters who attack Hillary with baseless nonsense, and attack her supporters, are not helping him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #376)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:59 AM

380. If someone bases their support or opposition to a candidate based on....

 

think that certain posters on DU (or supporters in the real world) a jerks, then their reasoning is very shallow.

PLUS the fact that supporters of candidates tend to become pale flowers when it comes to how their candidates (or themselves) are portrayed.

My hackles get raised by some of the language aimed at Sanders and his supporters. I'll admit it.

But I try (emphasize try) to be intellectully honest about it. I wonlt defend calling Hillary sexist names, or excessively derogatory otherwise.

It;s always a difficult line when the stakes are perceived as high. I get strong in my language about the system which sometimes could be perceived as "negative attacks."

But it works that way on all sides. No "side" is immune, and both "sides" are guilty of occasional excesses.

One more point -- The flame throwing posts alays tend to attract more attention than the more reasoned ones. That's human nature/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #380)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:08 AM

385. You are not listening.

I did not say that people who ALREADY support Hillary do so based on what others (like on DU) have said about her.

They ALREADY support her. They all ALREADY know who she is, and would be perfectly happy voting for her. Right now.

And so, what has to happen, is you have to convert them.

And if your approach is to bash Hillary, or people who support her. They will stop listening to you. They will tune you, and Bernie, out.

And you keep making reference to "both sides".

Hillary supporters say they will vote for Hillary or Bernie, which ever one wins the primary. Yet there are many here who say they support Bernie, and are quite adamant that they will never vote for Hillary.

Which of those "sides" do you think is more likely to attack the other?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #385)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:46 AM

399. People are individuals

 

That's all I can say on the subject

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #31)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:44 PM

87. I think you mean: some of Bernie's (alleged) 'supporters'

 

there's a big difference, since you're so concerned about accuracy and fairness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:41 AM

231. It's a matter of perspective.

as a Sanders supporter, I view the discussion of the flaws and weaknesses in Hillary's campaign such as her closeness to the big banks, her fundraising for a good but private foundation from donors who may or may not be seeking favors and then running for an office in which she could grant favors, her refusal to answer a direct opinion on the XL pipeline, her husband's record -- from the signing of NAFTA to the repeal of Glass-Steagall to the signing of the Telecommunications Act and so many other policy problems as topics that we need to consider when we pick a candidate,

Now when I point out the many issues on which I disagree with Hillary, her supporters are perplexed, They also for the most part to the extent that they are informed about the issues, support B ernie's views to a greater extent than they support The Clintons' policies and Hillary's campaign strategy.

I think that the attempt to silence Bernie supporters when we voice our problems with Hillary's policies and views on issues of importance or question her judgment on issues from war in Iraq to gay marriage is actually a form of denial on the part of Hillary supporters. Rather than admit that they really trust and agree with Bernie more than with Hillary, the wise and mature and rational thing and become Bernie supporters, They resolve the cognitive dissonance betweenm admitting that they know that the candidate to whose nomination they have emotionally committed themselves is not really the candidate they should vote for, they loudly and frequently accuse Bernie supporters of being mean.

As a Bernie supporter, I am not being mean to anyone when I point out the myriad ways in which my candidate is superior to other candidates.

It is simply a fact that Bernie is the stronger candidate.

Of course it hurts to have to admit as a Hillary supporter that one is wrong and that Bernie is the best candidate. I feel sorry for the author of the OP who is clearly in that denial stage, but facts are facts.

Sorry but your hurt feelings are not the fault of Bernie supporters but of the unwillingness at this point of Hillary supporters to be honest with themselves.

I. May be wrong, but I strongly suspect.that the relative strengths in a Bernie candidacy and the weaknesses in Hillary's will become so painfully evident that the most ardent Hillary supporters will join the Bernie camp.

This desperate attempt to dissuade Bernie supporters from simply telling the truth about the candidates will end as voters become better informed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #231)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:30 AM

307. ^^^I wish I could rec your post^^^

Such a sane response in an insane thread.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #231)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:28 AM

354. I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her.

 

I usually find your posts reasonable and even if I do not agree, I can understand your policy differences with her and enjoy your positive support for Bernie. Nobody is perfect, but I do not see you as a negative supporter.

Now, I am Ideologically similar to Bernie as far as my politics go, although I find myself putting a bit more emphasis on the social justice aspect, rather than the economical. I see you as an ally in the fight for Black lives matters and appreciate that and hope that everyone can join us in our fight. You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.

I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary. If I say things about what I think is hurting him with black voters, it is not because I want to trash him or you guys, I want you to know what I see and really am trying to help.

I want Bernie's supporters to include things that are important to black voters and place them at the top of the list of urgent business. I truly believe that the group that wins the support of black activists in movements like Black Lives Matters will win the black vote. And similarly with Latinos, the person and supporters that show the most concern, listen to hispanics in our nation and empathizes and places their concerns at the top along with economic and social justice will win their respect and votes. Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.

Bernie and his group have to spread goodwill throughout the Obama coalition. They need to steal Hillary voters. I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that. We do not like people who do not appreciate him and his accomplishments.

I say these things not to harn; but to assist. When I speak with other African Americans about the policy issues and differences between the candidates, they seem to actually PREFER Bernie's positions. But there is a lack of trust, and we find it difficult to get interested in a new (to us) candidate. We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions. The Clintons are our default choice. The Clintons are praising Obama and that brings them enough goodwill to assuage the fears of another Welfare Reform debacle or Mass Incarceration mess. The Clintons are busy speaking on our issues and apologizing for past mistakes. I know that does not make up for the past, but when has America EVER made up for things done to black people? Never. An apology for hurting us is so damn rare that we forgive.

Now, I think we can get through this netroots debacle, but Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively. Life is a learning experience.

I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.

Another thing is you all need to know that Black people LIKE the Clintons. Yes, they fucked up. But it seems that we are forgiving them and waiting to hear more about how Hillary will undo some of the policies and ensure that we work on the insititutional racism. Many are willing to give them a chance to fix things. It does not help Bernie AT ALL when folks talk crazy to black folks about liking the Clintons after all the damage they have done. It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.

I'd also suggest that his supporters might want to stop saying that economic justice and social justice are the same thing or that one brings the other. And maybe stop calling non Bernie supporters uninformed or implying that they are stupid or Hillary supporters. I get accused of supporting Hillary because I am saying these things to and about Bernie supporters. I understand that I have been a bit unkind by broadbrushing his supporters and I am sorry. I apologize for that and will try to do better. I just do not like my concern dismissed or my community or activists being disrespected or called right wing plants.

There is nothing wrong with being excited for a candidate. Or being an idealist. But it is not a winning strategy on it's own. Votes are needed to win. Bernie has the leftish progressive white liberals on his side and he has their support. He NEEDS more. Compromises will have to be made and tongues will have to be bitten to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the Democratic coalition.

Sorry about the super long post, but I just wanted to get that out there and see if anybody would take what I say seriously and help end this meme with the quickness. I do not like Bernie's supporters having the reputation of being mean, or intelligence snobs or hating black people. The only way to turn the tide is to change course. If you guys could collectively just be nice to black people and listen to us and support us in this fight for our lives and freedom; fight just as hard as you fight FOR Bernie, this problem would be a thing of the past.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:45 AM

359. I like this post — a lot.

Thanks for every word of it, bravenak!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raine1967 (Reply #359)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:50 AM

361. Thank you.

 

I worked hard on it. Glad to see somebody read it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #361)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:10 AM

368. I read your words here, Braveank, I always appreciate them because

they clarify a lot of feelings I have about certain issues that I don't know how to fully express.

your discussions about Social and Economic justice is one example. IT's not easy as a white woman to realize certain things.

A few years ago, (over a decade now that I think about it) I was dating a black man. At the time I needed to find a new place to live. I was looking to rent a house he came with me to check it out for structural issues, etc.

The prospective land lord kept asking me if I would be moving in alone; (yes) did I have kids? (no) Was I thinking about kids…. It seemed like friendly banter, a conversational thing and I am pretty chatty myself…

at a certain point, my Boyfriend said he had 'checked out the house and would meet me in the car'. I was really kinda confused as to why he was leaving me alone.

When I got back to the car, he told me what he had seen — and what he saw and felt was something I didn't. That landlord was really afraid I would be moving in with a black man.

The other day, Martin O'MAlley gave a speech to the Urban League and he said something that reminded me of that incident so many years ago:

We cannot understand what we do not see.

We cannot improve what we do not measure.

But once we measure, once we see, and once we understand, we can certainly improve.


My relationship with that man (still one of my dearest friends) so many years ago opened my eyes to things so many of my white friends just don't get.

My boyfriend at the time made more money than me, he owned his own house with generous property in upstate NY And he was still treated like crap from a white homeowner offering me the privilege to live in his house for a fee. I was floored. I new what rascism was — kinda, but this was a perfect example of the unseen stuff a lot of white people don't ever see.

I didn't rent that house, I said f*ck it and bought one of my own with another friend of mine. We bought a duplex. He lived upstairs with his partner and I was a happy unmarried woman owning my own home.

I guess what I am saying is that I am seeing more and I appreciate it!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raine1967 (Reply #368)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:03 AM

382. I know exactly what you mean.

 

I have experience that myself, strangely enough they had no problem renting to a black woman alone, but the idea of my husband scared them. And there is always the strange questions and assumptions that I am a single mother and they ask if my kids have the same father. I never get those questions from Black people. Of course my husband is the father of my children! Who else could possibly be the father. Things like that make things just that much harder to deal with.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raine1967 (Reply #368)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:21 AM

395. We are a lily white family...for now

 

My oldest is dating a magnificent person who is black. Kind respectful and yet......he too gets all the sideways glances, the comments that may or may not be interpreted as racist, they innuendos of bigotry. It breaks my heart and like you has given me a little insight into the ongoing different treatment of black people. I have been told that my daughter is now "tainted", the word is out and white boys will no longer want to date her. WTF!!! I can't imagine the burdens of generationally living under such a dark cloud that this boy and so many millions of others have had to do. I simply hate the embedded fear and hate for skin and culture that is different.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #395)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:56 PM

420. It's eye opening, right?

and I think it is important that we listen when people tell us what they are experiencing and what they see.

Life experience helps and sometimes it is important to look beyond our circle of life and actually go into others.

I hope your daughter and her boyfriend have much happiness and joy!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raine1967 (Reply #368)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:30 PM

435. I read all your words, too, bravenak, and yours as well, Raine1967.

Both excellent points. Both worth recommending in and of themselves!

I've noted here, myself, as a white woman, Raine, that the main way I can relate, since my family is pretty monochromatic on the lighter side, too, is through being a mom. I just sink myself into the faces and voices of those mothers who've lost their precious children to police brutality, senseless gun violence, or the Stand Your Ground overkill, and ponder how I have the luxury of kissing my son goodbye on his way to a gig and I can feel pretty confident that he will come home on his own two feet and not in a box.

Black moms do not have that sense of security. Why do they not deserve that sense of security too? Why on earth should they be denied that? I could add the trite little comment about how no mother anywhere should be denied that, but CRIMINY, it happens so damn much more often to Black families that it is a genuine, and almost transcending crisis! As a mom, I know how critical it is for me to know my kids are safe. That's as big a bedrock fundamental issue as there is, for a mom. I can only imagine how that fear and dread gnaws at any Black mom, every moment of every day and night that her kids are not, physically, safely within her view.

Perhaps this is why, for many, social justice outweighs economic justice on the scale of importance. Because no job, no matter how good it is or what it pays, can comfort a mother who's had her son or daughter violently and unjustly ripped away from her forever.

So I relate that way, and I've gotta say, it just tears up my guts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to calimary (Reply #435)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:49 PM

436. I hope that Bravenak see this.

We have things to learn. You are a mom, I am not and yet somehow, we can actually take our experiences and identify with Poc as opposed to dismissing them.

Too often I see dismissiveness after posts Bravenak's this and it really makes me sad (and frustrated). Identifying with what other people are feeling (like what you are saying in your post) goes a long way in understanding what they are saying. Understanding what people are saying is the beginning of open and honest communication.







Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to calimary (Reply #435)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:55 PM

437. You should c&p this to Bravenak's op

 

It is worth others reading too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:56 AM

378. Thank you so very much

 

I also read every word. It's time.........

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #378)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:57 AM

379. You are welcome.

 

Thank you for reading the whole thing!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:19 AM

394. An excellently written post.

Thank you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to blackspade (Reply #394)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:25 AM

397. Thanks Boo!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #397)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 07:09 AM

442. No, thank you!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:06 PM

424. I am glad that you started a thread for this post

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gothmog (Reply #424)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:07 PM

425. Me too. It went well I think.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:12 PM

426. Just be nice to Black people ?

 

Hi I'm back . Don't send me mail, talk here or I'll block you , isn't that what you do to people who don't agree with you ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #426)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:14 PM

427. You can just leave me alone after that nasty post that was hidden. Number23 was right.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #354)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 05:58 AM

440. Why do Black voters like Hillary so much?

What has OBama done to stop the police violence against Black people?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #440)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:05 AM

441. This is a terrible way to approach that question.

 

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Because they feel like the Clintons are unfairly attacked and we appreciate what Obama does for us. Unlike EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT he doesn't do anything TO US. And we trust him and feel far more comfortable with him than with any other politician in the World dead or Alive. And Hillary's supporters and she herself seems to like him and support his legacy and speaks of building upon that. She does not sell him out like so man other liberals. She has loyalty.

Obama is like a step under Black Jesus, so, attacking us with 'what has he done for you lately?', is not bringing us to the team. We like him. Embracing Obama is the only way to win Obama voters. I'll have you know that many of us only started voting to vote FOR Obama, not for anyone else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #441)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:04 PM

453. So, basically, a lot of Black voters are happy with Obama and liBer

idea that Hillary will probably continue Obama's policies.

Is that what you are saying?

Bernie supporters are coming from the ranks of people who have not made economic or social progress during the Obama administration, people who lost their jobs around 2008 or their homes or have had to accept income cuts or who want to have a bank policy that puts government in charge of the banks as well as ardent opponents to Citizens United who like Bernie because he doesn't take money from the billionaires.

Very interesting. How do we bring these people together?

A friend of mine (a white woman in her 50s) sent me a very pro-Bernie e-mail today. She was a teacher, lost her job, felt she was unfairly treated (she was) and is unable to get back on her feet. A lot of young people graduated from college only to find that they can't get decent jobs. The son of one of my friends did well in college and now earns only enough for his girlfriend and he to sleep in a van at night.

A lot of people have lost out and have suffered really seriously from it in the past few years. Look at Detroit. Almost nothing was done to prevent serious deterioration in that city.

And of course this is not all Obama's fault. Although certainly the programs he proposed and headed to deal with the broken economy in 2008 did not address the issue of professional people and skilled workers in a lot of fields other than construction who were jobless and unable to get good jobs.

The economic picture is just so bleak for so many people. That is why Bernie is appealing. Could it be that it has been bleak for Black people for so long that they don't notice the contrast, the decline quite as much? If you have any opinion on that, let me know.

How do we unite this party when the perceptions about the past eight years and the direction and prioritization of social values versus economic policy are tearing us apart at a very deep, foundational level?

I don't think that the emphasis on economic issues is making people less supportive of the social, especially race and immigration issues. But rather the emphasis on economic issues helps bring people to the polls and also to a heightened awareness of the intransigence of the race issues.

I think that the existence of these horrible videos is making it more acceptable and even mandatory for white people with consciences to speak out. It is very hard to deny evidence like the video of Sandra Bland's arrest. The meanness in that video is just offensive to any person. And then when you see the videos of Sandra Bland speaking on race issues, you have to ask whether an internet search was made of her name during the five minutes that the officer spent in the car between the initial stop and then the officer's return to the car and his goading of her.

These videos are heightening white awareness of the race issues in the country. That is bringing Democrats more strongly together on race issues. It is a shame that it takes something like horrible videos to do that, but at least it is working.

But I wonder how Black people can be brought to understand the fears and anxiety and suffering of white people who have, as Bill Clinton used to say, "played by the rules" and been cheated by trade agreements and tax policy and the Bush and Obama administrations' leniency with the financial sector.

Another big problem with Obama for a lot of white liberals is is education policy. I don't think it has helped to unite the country, and a lot of students and teacher have been hurt by it. Of course, some of that hurt is due as in most cases today to congressional policies.

And that brings me to the most important question of 2016. How do we get more Democrats into local government and into Congress? That is the big challenge we face.

Considering how successful the Obama administration has been in many respects (no huge scandals that were real for instance), why was the 2014 election result a Republican Congress?

If people were really happy with Obama, wouldn't they be out voting for Democrats? Wouldn't they have gone to the polls to give him a Congress he could work with?

On edit, there is so much vituperative discussion on DU, I want you to know that I am really interested in your take on this. Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #453)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 12:08 AM

454. Yes. Most black people are very happy with Obama.

 

We have complaints, but none that we will usually share outside of our group. The idea that Hillary respects our feelings towards him and plans to continue his policies, and perhaps improve upon them makes us comfortable.

Black people have been living in a century long great depression. We have NEVER not had those fears that are new and horrible for white people. That is why they think we don't understand their econimic fears. They do not understand us. We were slaves. Now we are the poor and have always been on the bottom. No matter if we are not poor, people still think black=poor. We know that they never seemed to care so urgently about our poverty when it was just us that were suffering. We look at you all in shock. You think you have it bad, we say with our eyes. We are not even allowed to live free, even if we have money. We know that once the financial problems are solved for white people, racism will be backburnered like it always is. White flight happened years ago, the disinvestment in our communities and problems already happened, and white liberals left us lying in shit and jailed and abused and now they tell us that they care. Well, where the hell wre all these people who care so much bout our unemployment all these forty years? Ignoring us until they needed our votes. Doing charity work here and there and patting themselves on the backs for being such selfless white liberals while at the same time judging us, ignoring us, telling us we're stupid, and letting raxism and institutional violence run rampant, blaming the black community and reading Marx and telling themselves that socialism will solve it. Pretending they aren't racist because they don't say 'nigger' while they aviod black people like the plague. Not hiring us, opposing affimative action, then telling us they are colorblind when we know that colorblind=racist as hell.

This is the problem, the disconnect. White people think that white people's problems are EVERYONES problems, and that they are the standard. Our problems are side issues. But they woukd be DAMNED if they let white people be treated like this as the sop while black folks. lived goid lives without 1/3 going to jail or prison. White people would have burned the fucking nation to the ground before they themselves lived in poverty and under institutional racism or black supremacy.

So, we do not trust you. Look at how things have gotten for us while you were able to ignore it since your family is not the ones worried about whether your kids will meet a racist cop and end up dead. We are not willing to just vote for your guy when you do not even understand the magnitude of the problem. Our problems are much more life or death and immediate. We say that and white liberaks say, 'what about climate change though? Don't you care?' No. Not when I won't survive a police stop for a moving violation, no, I don't care about your money if my life is in danger.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #454)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 05:46 AM

455. I really appreciate your post. I can't change anything by myself, but

I think you should post it as an OP and send me a PM so that I can recommend it.

Don't expect many answers because it is very difficult to respond to your post since it is, every word of it, true. I like this very much:

No matter if we are not poor, people still think black=poor
.

I wish I knew the answer. But I think it is good for white people like me to be aware of this fundamental problem.

Have you lived in California?n

We do not or at least very soon will not have a racial majority. I am wondering how that will affect things a few years from now. I think that Black people still suffer more difficulty with racism even in our relatively less racist state. And there are areas in which racism is as bad as ever.

Do you live in an area in which Black people live in Black neighborhoods? Or do you live in an area in which people just live in racially mixed neighborhoods? Do you think that the racial integration of schools or neighborhoods increases or decreases racism? Is perhaps ignorance of another race a cause for racism?

One of the results of the California views on race is that we have a lot of children of mixed race here. I met a man who was born in Germany of a Jewish father and a German mother. He had many psychological conflicts and problems due to his mixed ancestry and the fact that his ethnicity and parentage had to be kept secret for his own protection, secret even from him for much of his life. A psychologist told him that when you have a mixture of that sort in your parentage, you identify with and are mostly a member of the minority or outcast group. That makes me wonder what in the world the basis is for the racist reaction in a racist group. Now the hatred of Jews by the Germans was not based on skin color. In fact, there wasn't much difference if any at all in the appearance of Jewish people as opposed to other Europeans. Yet the contempt and hatred was so strong. And in fact, the view that Germans held of Jewish people was that Jews were rich. Just as the view that Blacks are poor is false, so was the view that Jews were rich.

So I wonder what racism is really about, whether it is really about what we think it is about or whether it is just hate that is in people and expresses itself about race.

In one sense it makes very little difference where the racism comes from. But in another sense, perhaps we try to fight racism from a point of view and with a strategy that cannot work. If race is an excuse for the expression of hatred and not really about the color of the skin but about making the hater feel powerful, then it is much more difficult to deal with it by talking about race. Maybe we need a different approach. Maybe we should be talking about hate and anger and how race is just an excuse for expressing them.

In my experience, it is black men who get the worst end of the racism. They get ignored and stereotyped. How often does a white woman choose a seat next to a black man on a train or in a plane? Not very often. And why is that? I often wonder about that.

Of course, women of my older generation will always sit beside a woman rather than by a man I think. But I believe that the hesitancy to sit by a black man is especially great, and I think that black men are very aware of this. That reluctance betrays a basic racist fact of our society, unimportant as it is.

I also think that children of color get picked on in school more than white children. This is again especially acute with boys. I notice that with my grandson. He is an exceptionally beautiful child, but one of his pre-school teachers just picked on him. When anyone did anything, he got blamed even if it took more than one child to do whatever it was. He is really good at math and other topics, so it was not his performance in his work that was the cause of the problem. A friend of my daughter brought this to our attention. It wasn't just the fulfillment of an expectation or any preconception on her part that he was being picked on. It really happened.

A new Montessori pre-school worked a miracle for him. We need to emphasize that discipline problems in school are often if not always the result of a child feeling excluded. That gem of wisdom I picked up from a page of concepts about the Montessori system. So it seems to me that we have to deal with inclusion/exclusion based on race at a very early age. Because race is often the excuse for excluding a child. And Black children get the worst end of that from a very early age.

I think it is helpful to move from trying to bring the problem of racism to the point of viewing it more as the challenge of racism in our society and the price we ALL pay for it and then seeking to look for ways to meet that challenge and to end racism in our society.

I wonder whether there are other societies in which racism is not a problem or less of a problem. Do you know anything about that? Is there any society we could look to as a model for ending the stereotyping and discrimination of racism?

I appreciate your willingness to write so honestly and openly about this topic. Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #455)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:05 AM

459. I'm just glad I'm able to have an honest conversation on race for once.

 

This has been the best few days of race conversations I have ever seen on DU. I think America avoids these discussions because they are just so damn uncomfortable to start. It is realky hard to be honest about how I feel about these things, but sometimes I just gotta jump in feet first.

I was born in Los Angeles. 5557 Adams Blvd, you can see it on google earth. We lived above an appliance shop when I was born in a 2 bedroom apartment with 2 of my aunts, my grandma, my mom, dad, sister, 5 cousins, and 3 uncles. Yes. We were THAT poor. People used to laugh because they said we were poorer than the hispanics and we have a hispanic name and talk funny.
I actually faced MORE racism in Cali than here in AK. I lived in Frazier Park too, you know it? Up near the grapevine? Never been called so many names or been beat up so much in my life just for being black as I have been there. I felt safer back in L.A.. Nobody would even call me by my own name. There were just a few black people, me, my mom, and a couple kids at school who were mixed. They joined in the taunting and abuse too because were were BLACKER than they were.
The teachers did it too. Anything I did, even just not putting my hand up to nswer a question was grounds for detention. Getting too high of scores caused me to have to retake tests to prove I was not cheating. I had to start missing answers and letting at least ONE of the white kids score higher just to stay out of trouble. It was hard to do for me. I was always in the top 99th percentile. How do you teach yourself to cheat yourself?

Ahh, life! I think racism in America is a product of slavery and white supremacy. Not money. Not that black people are inherently bad. Just people who are trained to think they are better and others are less human. Gives people an outlet for their hate and violence. It will be in our history books. The oligarchy did not invent racism, it just uses the tool provided by the masses.

I don't think black men get the worst. Women get the sexism plus the racism and get left to support the kids while all the men get locked up. They get cut iff from services and watch their sons and daughters get murdered. No. Equal, I'd say, but black men get more attention. Until Sandra Bland the focus was on black men's lives.


Is your grandchild a black child? I had to tell my mother in law recently that she treats her white kids much better than her black son, my husband. It was very difficult. She constantly judges me for my life before I met my husband. But my uncle, who is white, married her daughter and she loves him to death, even though he is a lazy sad sack of shit. I had to tell her. I yelled, I screamed, and she cried. But she fucking heard me. And she acknowledged that she does do that. Her parents were racist. She is too. She doesn't want to be but she is. People cannot change unless they are told what they are doung and accept it as true.

As far as your grandson; Inam glad he has another place. But be vigilant! You may even have to tell peope what they are doing, warn them to stop, and get wild and threaten lawsuits. People must be aware of how they treat children. Our kids suffer ALOT of ptsd just from living their day to day lives, being black. Damages kids. Racism causes behavioral problems, outbursts and violence. Being treated unfairly causes anger to build up, no wonder they say we are violent! Pick at and picked on until you just explode!

See how the police try to force people into bad behavior? How they follow black peopke for MILES until they get so nervous they forget to signal? That is why we are cinstantly arrested. They will firce us into making an error just to harass and target us. It needs to stop. White folks need to get on those juries and vote not guilty and send us home.

I think as the leaders of the free world we have to work on racism to get the rst of the world to do it. I know of nowhere that has a mix of people that has no racism. We pretty mich invented the concept of race based slavery, which lead to skin color racism. Others learned from us. Even Hitler learned from our genocide of the native americans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #25)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM

77. He doesn't have to attack, his followers are doing the job for him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #77)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:31 PM

163. That is the way you see it

Change the genders in your sentence above, and that is the way we see it.

Of course we will each "see" all of the threads and posts stating something negative about our candidate, and especially relentless snarks against us as supporters, but may not even notice many of the threads and posts against your opponent or relentless snarks against you, because they don't upset us like the ones against us and our candidate.

It works the same for both sides.

So how do we declare a cease fire? Who will raise the white flag? Who will join hands and sing "cant' we all just get along"?

Maybe the question is "Who will go first?" and then will the other side follow? And that will only work if everyone follows the lead, not just half of each team.

Any suggestions?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #77)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:04 AM

383. The same is true from Hillary supporters toward Bernie

 

so please live up to your own standard (if you can).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:24 AM

372. Correct ... its his supporters ...

... and not all of them ... just a very loud and angry block of them.

They think personal attacks on Hillary, and her supporters, will generate converts.

It won't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #372)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:06 AM

384. It seems that Hillary supporters see policy differences as

 

personal attacks.

I think they better grow a thicker skin. If she is the nominee, what you have seen from Bernie supporters is nothing compared to what the GOP slime machine will roll out.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #384)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:11 AM

387. That's you projecting.

As for skin ... I think we'll be fine.

Good luck in your efforts to get people who would already happily vote for Hillary, to switch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #387)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:16 AM

389. So, pointing out that she refuses to answer questions

 

about TPP and the XL pipeline isn't attacking her?

Lets just make that perfectly clear.

How about that she didn't support marriage equality until well over half the country did? Is pointing out that she is in the bottom 50 percentile of the entire population, when it comes to civil rights, a personal attack or is it just stating a problem with a policy she was slow to support?

Or her 19 minute impassioned speech in support of the authorization for use of military force in Iraq? Is it a personal attack that she was the loudest voice in favor of the war of all the (D)s in Congress?


If you can admit that these are policy differences then we are on the same page. If you see these as personal attacks they you are the one projecting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #389)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:53 AM

400. Sure.

1) the TPP legislation is not complete ... sure one can scream about how terrible it is, but I'd actually like to see it first. I'm not against the US making trade deals.

2) XL pipeline ... I find it interesting that folks who were absolutely sure Obama would fast track that (and were wrong about that), are now very sure Hillary will immediately push it through too. The reality is that the Obama administration is still doing the research on it, and sure, you can scream how awful it is, that's easy.

3) On no ... she didn't support marriage equality years earlier. Neither did Obama, and yet *GASP* he got it done. Why? Because he knew that if he ran on that, he'd have LOST, and it would have never happened by now. Here again, much of DU attacked Obama. Said he'd never end DADT, never support ending DOMA. Demanded he write an executive order. Instead, he worked the government. And now its done.

And that point is important. I find Bernie, and many of his supporters, take a rather pie in the sky mindset. Whether some on the left like it or not, Obama has gotten a great deal done. He's Presidency has been incredibly effective. I prefer that approach to moon howling. I don't just want some one who will stake out outrageous positions, I want things to actually get done. There is a segment on DU who has howled at Obama endlessly, and been wrong over and over. They seem to be some of the loudest anti-Hillary folks now, and that stands out to me.

4) Oh yes. The Iraq war vote. The one we gave Kerry a pass on in 2004. Strange that. And so many of you pretend that at the end of it she did not implore Bush to use this authorization as a last resort, which he did not do. And some of you pretend to not notice it. It was a mistake to give Bush that authority. I doubt any one who voted yes thought that Bush would not listen to the inspectors. For many, the goal of that vote was to get Saddam to let the inspectors back in. Which is exactly what happened immediately after the vote. Another point some tend to forget. It should have ended there. It didn't. Which is a great reason to never let the GOP be in charge again. Not a great reason to not support Kerry in 2004, or Clinton now. And I seem to recall folks here on DU who were sure Obama and Hillary were going to start Iraq style wars in Libya, Egypt, Syria. Didn't happen. Bottom line, I find a lot of the folks screaming about this to be disingenuous across the board on this topic.

As so often happens in this policy discussions, its the approach. I disagree with the part of the left who pushes for all or nothing approaches. The way our government is structured that approach doesn't work. And you get nothing. No progress.

And so ... Bernie would have my support if he were to win the primary. And its possible that I could come to support him in the primary. But I am not confident that he could get anything done if elected, and I'm not at all confident he could win the GE at all ... and that point is critical although some in your camp blow it off.

My #1 issue is not letting the GOP take the White House. That trumps everything else. #2, I have to believe that the policy positions being put forward are not just pie in the sky ... they have to be workable solutions. I get the sense that some of Bernie's supporters here think he'll become President and then "poof" the banks get broken up. How's that going to happen? I have a great deal of confidence that Hillary can get things done. Bernie, not so much. But he could convince me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #400)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:05 PM

413. I'll start with #4

 

I pointed out her speech, not the vote. Kerry made no such speech. Please stick to what I posted. The very fact that you must switch to the vote when the topic was her speech proves that it is indefensible.

#3) So she was lying to us for her own political gain? I don't see that as a reason to support her. Bernie has been supporting marriage equality for a very long time and he has been winning. You can go ahead and say that others were wrong too (as you did with Kerry) but that doesn't change the fact that she was wrong.

#2 + #1 ) Her arrogant response about not answering a question until she becomes President is unforgivable. Voters deserve to know where she stands on these things. You don't need to know the details of the TPP to be against it. This is like wondering about the wallpaper in a condemned building. It doesn't matter. The TPP should be opposed.


If you really care about how electable a candidate is then you need to seriously consider that the email scandal will blow up during the general and destroy her campaign. I think it is not much of an issue, but with her being ~20 points upside down on trustworthy rating, that 10% sample of her emails that had information classified as Secret could be a real problem.

Or if not the email scandal, then the speaking fees from Swiss banks. Or other donations to the Clinton Foundation. Or something else we don't know about yet.

It isn't "her turn" and to assume it is seems foolish. She has only won 2 elections in her life and they were both the New York Senate elections. Most any well funded (D) could have won those. I really don't see her being up to the campaign that is ahead of her if she is the nominee.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:05 PM

27. I been saying... For Hillary to win the primary,she has to convert LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS

of people who would HAPPILY vote for her. Attacking Bernie, and attacking his supporters, will not convert those people. Go figure you would think people would get that but no.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:13 PM

36. You are smarter than this.

I have seen your posts in the past.

Hillary is way ahead of Bernie in Dem polls.

Bernie needs to convert Hillary supporters if he is going to win the primary.

No one is attacking Bernie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #36)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM

48. Oh yeah? If I was interested enough I could give you link after link proving you wrong.

But I give you kudos for at least not trying to say Bernie supporters aren't being attacked. If Hillary wants to win the election much less the primary she should step up and give Bernie supporters a reason to support her.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #36)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:38 PM

169. No one is attacking Bernie?

or his supporters?

You aren't reading the same threads I am.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #169)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:39 PM

434. It started the day after his campaign kickoff in Burlington, VT, Tues. May 26

with,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH BERNIE, Wed., May 27, 2015

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:43 PM

84. She's up by 40 points, not many left to "convert". Nice try at turnabout though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #84)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:09 PM

134. I didn't try a turnabout George. I just straight up mocked the post cause that door swings 2 ways.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #134)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:39 PM

170. It certainly does.

I thought your post was a perfect response.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #134)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:07 AM

294. It very much swings two ways,

and I got banned from the HRC group for foolisly stating that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:38 PM

168. Sounds like a repeat of of 2008 doesn't it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM

79. Criticism of issues is fair game, but when they call Hillary supporters things like "fools, third way

Democrats, republicans, etc.", they are quite short sighted.

If Bernie wins the Democratic nomination, the only way he will win the general election is with Hillary supporters. There are some Bernie supporters who are mindful of this, and respectfully debate the issues. However, there are enough Hillary trash threads at least on DU, that actually hurt Bernie



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #79)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:43 PM

83. Oh, please.

Have you seen some of the things HC supporters have called Bernie and his supporters in their group?

If you're going to wag your finger at supporters start in your own house.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #83)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM

103. I am not talking about a group. A group is a specialized area where they set their own rules. I am

talking about in the general discussion : primary forum.

Groups are partisan cheering sections for their candidate. The general discussion forums should be about discussing why one candidate is better or not on the issues, not trashing supporters of a candidate.

Oh by the way you are assuming I am a Hillary supporter

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #103)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM

112. Of course you're not. Funny how the condemnation is only for Bernie's supporters.

You witnessed and participated in threads where we were mocked and called names but we're the bad guys here.

Got it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #112)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:01 AM

240. I did NOT participate in the mocking of any candidate's supporters running in the Democratic primary

However, I agree my recent posts are more defensive of Hillary than Bernie.

However, I have also been supportive of Bernie when I have seen unfair attacks, such as accusations that "Bernie is just a spoiler", which is BS, not the least of which is Bernie is running as a Democrat, not a third party. When Bernie was unfairly being piled on as being insensitive to POC, I called BS on that also. There are other examples to, but I can understand why my recent posts would lead you to the conclusion that I am bias for Hillary.

Perhaps the best way to express where I am coming from the following thread where I was arguing there was no evidence:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=486087

"Just looks bad. Tone deaf. "Bad optics". It has the appearance of impropriety, at the least.

Looks like a clear case of corporate cronyism.

In this case UBS is the corporation and the Clintons are the cronies.

A crony would be like the spouse of a government official who takes money from corporations and the official just happens to help them out.

But there's no evidence that UBS paid Bill $1.5 million because they want influence in government, or because Hillary stepped in to protect them from a major problem when they were shielding tax cheats from the IRS .

Maybe they paid him $1.5 million because he's just a nice guy that talks good.

This article isn't making any "allegations". It's just telling us these facts about what happened. There is no email or anything that says the money is specifically payment for helping them with the IRS. You are right there is no specific evidence like that. "

and my response was the following:

"Appreciate that you responded to each one of my responses. This last one makes the most sense in my view"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=486088

There are other posts where I have had good discussions with both Bernie and Hillary supporters. I haven't spent too much time analyzing O'Malley on the issues, but am starting to to do that now.

What I am saying is I am still analyzing the candidates on the issues

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #240)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:06 AM

242. All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that both sides are at fault.

Why pile on us in a thread where Bernie supporters are being called assholes?

Did you think that was fair?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #242)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:14 AM

250. You are right. Good point, thanks

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #103)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 AM

195. You should not be excluding specialized groups,

as they still show up on the home page and everyone can and does read them. We may not be able to post in the Hillary thread, or respond to the uglies, but they sure are posted there...constantly.

Those groups should be to support each other and brag on Hillary and Bernie, not use a "safe" place where you can lock out "the other" while you relentlessly thrash them. Neither side should be doing this. Stick to the discussion of issues and quit making personal attacks. Even generic personal attacks are understood by both sides.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #195)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:17 AM

203. Partisanship, as far as I am concerned is expected in those groups. Issues may not always be the

primary emphasis in specialized groups.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #203)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:20 AM

207. I also included supporting each other

You don't have to trash Bernie supporters to support Hillary supporters, do you?

You have to know that anything nasty said about Bernie supporters in your group will be seen by Bernie supporters. And you really expect Bernie supporters to see that and not want to retaliate?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #207)


Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #207)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:11 AM

248. I agree, however, special groups are governed by their own set of rules, and even though they are

visible to anyone, I view them as a private "club" unlike the general discussion forums. Incidentally, I have also seen on all the special groups for political candidates that the trashing goes on of opposing candidates under a "safe harbor" of the special group. I do not agree with that, though from what I gather, even in special groups, if insults or attacks are hurled at another candidate's supporters, those can be alerted by anyone, even someone not part of that special group

I got your point, I just don't know. Should a special group be viewed as a private conversation within TOS, even though it is visible to everyone? My view currently is yes.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #83)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:12 PM

141. Well don't wait for it to happen.

Because when you are losing the argument it is easy to think of yourself as a victim of some unfairness...but if Bernie supporters would do the same thing they would be called whiners.

The meme being created is that criticize of Hillary is attacking and doing so will turn people off to Bernie...so STFU about her problems with elect-ability.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zeemike (Reply #141)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:16 PM

148. Exactly.

It's all a vast conspiracy to purge the site of Hillary supporters.

That group is full of people with persecution complexes.

When one of them has their post hidden or gets a forced vacation it's OUR fault.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #148)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:43 AM

358. Yes.

You have to love the "So and so has been silenced" OP's.

No, in most cases "So and so" was nasty, got alerted and had a post hidden.

Grow up and take responsibility for it.

I simply do not believe it when I read asinine dreck like that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoePhilly (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:50 AM

360. I'll tell you, the vitriol I've seen here has made me change my second choice...

 

... From Bernie to O'malley. I have a problem or two with Bernie, but the most extreme of hus supporters drive me nuts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:37 PM

2. Plan B

 

When there's nothing remotely credible to attack a candidate,

B) attack their "supporters" .. easy-peasy .. just take some random
blog or anonymous post claiming to be a "Sanders supporter" who
says something stupid, then waa-laa .. NOW there's something we
can attack and not look like a total idiot.

Your "concern" is duly noted.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:40 PM

4. Rally the troops, that is what they want :))) n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:49 PM

12. Obvious concerned poster is obvious.

Can't fight for your candidate on the issues, attack the real progressive's supporters.

Then pretend you're "concerned" about their behaviour.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #12)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:16 PM

44. Actually I'm not "pretending" that some people seem to match behaviors in the blog nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #44)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:30 PM

63. Since we're "matching" behaviours, how do you feel about linking to Stormfront on DU?

Should someone be banned for that or not?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #63)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:34 PM

70. I do not know what stormfront is?

 

So I dont understand how I can answer the question.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #70)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:37 PM

74. It's a white supremacist hate group.

Their website is very popular among racists and anti-semitics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #74)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:51 PM

96. So why link to it?

 

Was it to make fun, point fingers, support a statement, agree with the sentiments? I see people link to Free Republic and even Fox News for various reasons without being banned...so I suppose my personal opinion still can't be tapped since I don't know the context or how it applies to TOS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #96)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM

105. Who cares? You don't link to anti-semitic hate groups when discussing a Jewish candidate.

Or I don't know, ever.

If a HC supporter had linked to a racist hate group when discussing Obama would you be so forgiving?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #105)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:16 PM

147. I haven't forgiven anyone, how could I? Nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #74)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM

106. What exactly is your point with this? Are you implying that Sheepshank goes to Stormfront?

He says he doesn't know what it is, so why did you bring it up?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #106)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:57 PM

109. Because we're discussing disturbing behaviour by supporters on both sides.

It's the hypocrisy.

Where is the outrage?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM

45. I think the op is saying the same thing...

 

It seems to be a response to the attacks Bernie supporters have already made on Hillary supporters. So it's actually a counter-attack.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JaneyVee (Reply #45)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:36 PM

72. "The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters" <- NO, I'm not saying this

 

as you full-well know.

I'm saying the exact opposite: The main thing that will elect Bernie is his massive
numbers of supporters, of all stripes, who are fed-up to the gills with "lesser of 2 evils" 3rd Way
"shoot low, negotiate from there" lock-down of our Constitutional Democracy.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:43 PM

85. It is not expressing views against Hillary that is the problem. It is calling Hillary and her

supporters everything from "fools to republicans".

If Bernie wins the nomination, and you believe he can win the general election without Hillary supporters, then continue as you were

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #85)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM

115. Show me

 

a credible link, where there's a certifiable Bernie 'supporter' .. who can be
positively identified, who's standing up and calling Hill a "foolish Republican"

Otherwise, this is ALL conjecture and unsubstantiated here-say, based on
some anonymous post somewhere in the blogisphere, to indirectly attack
Bernie as having a "supporter problem".

The only problem Bernie has with his supporter is there are so damn many
of them that he can't get big enough venues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #115)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:47 PM

175. Here is one link, and the path followed. Keep in mind I realize this kind of stuff happens on

both sides:

The post that started it was a response to an OP from Salon which inferred the following:

"They’re terrified of Bernie Sanders: Fox News, Hillary surrogates and Wall Street get extra-nervous". This was followed by the opinion piece from Salon..

The comment made was to this OP was the following:

"You've got these fools on the run now! "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484074

The response to that was from someone, I assume was a Hillary supporter who made the following comment:

"Who are these fools?
Fox News the GOP or Hillary supporters? Might help to clarify that you don't consider the supporters of the Democratic front runner fools."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484084

The response I made to this was the following:

" One would think so. Whoever gets the Democratic nomination, that winner is going to need the supporters of the other Democratic candidates to win the general election, so it definitely would not be in their best interest to refer to another candidates supporters as "fools". Doesn't win friends for sure "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484093

The response I received from to my post was the question, "Are you a Hillary surrogate?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484113

Not entirely sure what that meant in regard to my post, and perhaps it was sarcasm, but wasn't that clear to me. I am probably dense.


There are other posts, which are more blatant, and I admit it happens on both sides, though to be objective, I haven't seen O'Malley supporters getting involved in that much sparing against each other's supporters, but that could be because he hasn't had enough visibility yet.

My point is simply, that it is NOT in the interest of ANY candidate to insult supporters of the opposing candidate. However, a candidate's supporters should, and do critisize the opposing candidates on the issues, and extoll the virtues of their candidate on the issues. That is the way it should be.







Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #175)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:10 AM

192. If Fox is "terrified" of Sanders, why do they invite him on like they do?

 

And why will Sanders GO on Fox LIVE and answer questions, whereas Hillary has been on ONCE and it had to be a taped interview?
Sanders has no fear of anyones questioning, thats the 1st thing I noticed about him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 7962 (Reply #192)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:20 AM

208. I am not arguing the OP, and in fact agree with your point, Hillary should be more aggressive

in public appearances as Bernie is, and appear on more talking head shows as Bernie does.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #208)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:13 AM

339. You know what it is ....

 

her handlers are afraid of what shes going to say if shes not using a script or pre-approved questions!
Thats how we got the "left the white house broke" line.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 7962 (Reply #339)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:09 AM

386. You made a point, someone politely agreed with you

 

And then you come back with this. Do you not "see" what a large portion of this thread is about? It's about the angry vocal the supporters' behaviors. The withdrawals from the emotional bank accounts have left the overall group bankrupt. It's so very unfortunate, because not everyone in your group deserves to be dragged into the foray by such a vocal few.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #386)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:17 AM

391. I was merely adding to the poster's comment. I agree with it. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:48 PM

92. I love how the advice to not "attack" Clinton or her supporters greatly helps Clinton's path to the

Whitehouse. I mean, could these people be more transparent? If you keep talking about things you don't like about Hillary, people are never going to vote for Bernie. This coming in the form of advice to Bernie supporters from Hillary supporters.

Thread after thread after thread about how Bernie and Bernie's supporters are doing it wrong. I'm afraid at this moment in the campaign our interests are not quite aligned. What they're doing is tantamount to Coke telling Pepsi to stop running so many ads. Coke only wants Pepsi to know, for Pepsi's own sake, that ads are irritating to many people and for the sake of Pepsi sales, they really ought to stop all this irritating advertising.

Coke can piss off.

How about this; we'll attack the way we see fit and they can defend the way they see fit and well let the chips fall where they may.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #92)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:03 PM

120. I totally agree, provided

 

that said "attacks" are focused on real issues like a laser,
and not personally attacking a fellow Democrat.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #120)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM

124. Agreed. That's what I do. That's why when they call issues oriented criticism an unfair attack,

well I just don't even know what to do with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #120)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 AM

211. Attacks on the candidates are fine, not on the supporters.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:38 PM

3. Thanks so much for encouraginging his supporters to work even harder, this was needed ...

sorry stopped reading the whole piece, but nice take away for the supporters.

Bernie supporters ... Get Out There!!!





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:42 PM

5. His supporters are anti Obama. Thats why they will NEVER win over black people or the Obama

 

coalition. Never.
The second people talk shit about Obama black folks give them the evil eye. I've been discussing this with people irl and all of them (the black ones) bring up the fact the they have been told crazy shit about Obama being a right wing damn near hitler by the Bernie supporters that try to pull them over to Bernie. Combine that with the way they were acting.... No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you.


Edit:http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

This too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:11 PM

32. Not really.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mmonk (Reply #32)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:34 PM

71. I'm a fast reader. I read the posts.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:11 PM

34. I don't like Democratic candidates, Bravenak, who govern far more to the right than they campaigned

 

And I've seen too much of it in my lifetime.

We can't keep kowtowing to corporations. The situation's too serious now and our margin's too thin. If Sanders can, at a minimum, shake things up even more to the "left" -- which is how non-compliance with corporate agendas seems to be painted now -- then good for him.

It's not about race. It's about who really runs/owns our economy, our country, and all of us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to villager (Reply #34)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:13 PM

37. I don't think you get it. The why you bash Obama doesn't matter. Many POC identify with him.

 

Bashing someone who a group identifies with is not going to get you support of that group.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #37)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:14 PM

42. I'll let someone from the group you presume to speak for reply to me, thanks!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to villager (Reply #42)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:18 PM

49. As Bravenak will tell you, I am a POC, but thanks for trying to dismiss me. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #49)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM

56. Then I apologize to you, and I'm sorry.

 

I just figured with your phraseology you were jumping in to tell me about what "that group" was likely to feel, and I mistook your phrasing.

So again, apologies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #37)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM

101. As a brown Poc

 

I do. Meaning I identify with him and Michelle.

I have loved watching him come from behind and win when everyone thought it would never happen.

It has been great to see his young family, his strong, beautiful wife and her mother guiding the girls as if to firmly say.

"This is the American Family" Not out of the norm but the norm. Here we are in a new century.


This whole situation with Netroots and the ensuing actions of some is the one thing that makes me troubled and sadly, it has little to do with the candidate himself.

Losing the votes isn't the bad part, losing the trust is.

This would be a good place to put this link. Nothing politically may change on this site, but at least all of us will have a chance to help the grieving loved ones of Sandra.

http://www.gofundme.com/sandystillspeaks

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #37)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:06 PM

127. But the thing is, the vast majority of the bashing was unadulterated bullshit. It really was

The vast majority of the wailing was over things these people swore up and down were going to happen that never did. And when the wailing on one issue never happened, these same folks pivoted to the next bit of manufactured bullshit like it wasn't nothing in the world. It was endless.

Were we not supposed to notice that?

Black folks have looked at this white liberal wailing FOR YEARS. That NOTHING that man ever did was good enough. Was "pure" enough. And now these same folks claim that five brown faces at a Sanders event and two hundred likes on Facebook is "proof" of his appeal to minorities and are trying to browbeat us into supporting him. That is, when they're not shitting on and wildly distorting the legacies of black icons to suit their needs.

I have tried my hardest to COMPLETELY tune out Sanders supporters because I like the man and am genuinely interested in what he has to say. He has not said one thing I disagree with and to be honest, I am like "hell yeah" on so many issues that he's passionate about. But I would be lying through my teeth if I said that I was not extremely discomforted by the fact that so many of those that are the most unhinged and dismissive of the issues that affect me and my family act as though he's the second coming of sliced bread. There is a huge disconnect there for me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Number23 (Reply #127)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:25 PM

160. Wow..powerful and real

 

Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Number23 (Reply #127)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:23 AM

256. Bernie was wailing, too.. he wanted to Primary President Obama in 2012.. said "millions were

deeply disappointed..".

"Let me just suggest this. I think there are millions of Americans who are deeply disappointed in the president; who believe that, with regard to Social Security and a number of other issues.. " blah blah blah..

bravenak MOre.. http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

Bullshite .. Millions aren't disappointed and that is the Obama Coalition that will have to be earned by the Dem Presidential candidate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to villager (Reply #34)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:19 PM

51. You guys are messing up.

 

Black people love Obama more that we love idology or ideals. He is our founding father, we have no emotional connection to the slavers and genociders that founded this nation. He is the fulfillments of a promise and a debt owed to black people. We place no politician or ideology above him. Talk bad about him, lose all of us. Y'all don't get it. You've had plenty of white presidents, you don't understand how hard it was growing up being told that those men that would rape and enslave you are your founding fathers and that there will NEVER be a black man in the white house. Now that there is, we have his back. Fully. Ain't nobody in the world more loyal than us. We'd go to the mattresses for him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #51)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:26 PM

59. You are making criticism of some policy decisions more than it is.

I was an Obama delegate btw. The only President I've done so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mmonk (Reply #59)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:31 PM

64. No I'm not. Not to me. It's very important to me.

 

Just because you THINK it's unimportant, doesn't mean it is. The smallest things can screw you up with voters. Look at his numbers among AA's. He does not understand us and neither do his supporters very well. Won't listen to us. Think they know better. Refuse to listen. Just keep lecturing and trying to use logic.

Besides, since the netrrots debacle, I read the Bernie group and most of the ops here to see what you are saying. Lots of anti Obama rhetoric from that crew. Makes me sick that I never noticed how much they seem to hate him. I cannot belong to that group.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:32 AM

221. What is anti-Obama rhetoric? Being against the TPP? Arne Duncan and Public Schools? Drones?

If you have a disagreement on a subject, it would be better to state it. When you agree with someone around 90%, it's pretty high on the agreement side.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mmonk (Reply #221)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:23 AM

277. You must have folks on ignore.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #51)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:31 PM

65. So I suppose if the GOP nominates Dr. Ben Carson, we cant criticize his policies either?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Armstead (Reply #65)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:33 PM

69. We disowned Carson. We don't vote Republican. We're Black.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM

47. so ALL the Black people you know say ALL the White people that support Bernie hate Obama ?

so tell me Colin Powell was our first Black SoS did the same apply to him too? and oh what about Condoleeza Rice, she was the first Black woman to be SoS?

Seems some can't separate criticizing certain things a POTUS does, while applauding other things

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #47)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:26 PM

58. Most of us who vote are paying close attention since netroots.

 

We fucking love Obama like a family member, you guys want to be all ideological. Not ALL black folks, but most are already voting Clinton and the undecideds ask the more informed about choices. Guess what we tell them?
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

We tell them that.
And we tell them how rude people from that side are to us. We tell about the insane lectures and getting told how uninformed and basically stupid and illogical we are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #58)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:32 PM

66. ya in 2011 he said Obama should primary because it looked like he was cutting Social Security

I remember that too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #66)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:33 PM

68. He cut nothing. Glad I found that out thanks to TarheelDem.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #68)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:42 PM

82. no in the end he did not, but at a point in in time it looked like he might well make those cuts

I remember I was here then too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #82)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:44 PM

86. It was a mistake to call for a primary if he was going to run for President. It will be brought up.n

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #86)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:57 PM

110. Perhaps or perhaps it had influence but if that is the tac that will be taken

so be it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #110)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:03 PM

121. That among other things. I'll wait for the general.

 

I cannot stand Hillary and Bernie is a no go. Not interested in O'malley. if Bernies supporters would stfu and listen and stop trashing people I respect like Obama, Holder, Lynch, BLM, and others, I could vote for him. But it would never happen. I go where I'm wanted.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #121)



Response to bravenak (Reply #460)


Response to Name removed (Reply #461)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:22 AM

462. Understandable.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #462)


Response to Name removed (Reply #463)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:52 AM

464. Good. I am glad.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #68)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 07:53 AM

456. He proactively proposed it that is indisputable and so it required push back.

Bush didn't privatize Social Security either so what?

That is a cop out and it was fucking stupid putting the party upside down on trust on Social Security for absolutely no benefit.

No, this has veered straight into cult of personality stuff and borders on placing godhead on a failable, mortal man, who surrounds himself with more failable and even corrupt people.

You think I'd not call for a primary for a President Sanders if he was calling for cutting Social Security? Beyond laughable.

Folks need to save the worship for church.

I also say this "logic" sets up an utterly unacceptable precedent. Next thing we know we will have we can't offend women who love the 1st woman President, then you get a neoliberal Hispanic and play that tune again. Then a neoliberal openly gay, same strategy and for all practical intents and purposes open policy disagreement and even more so opposition to bad policy becomes sin and worse it won't even be about the merits of the policy at all but reverence for politicians (a thing clearly historically irrational to insane in the vast majority of cases).

Fuck that! There are no possible rewards worth the cost of "winning" in that circular paradigm, we can't just be a bunch of adores that can be sold any bill of goods if the right race, orientation, religion (or lack thereof), or gender of salesman is pitching it from in our party.
This is well on the way Jim Jones/David Kiresh/Reverend Moon talk here. I don't need a new Jesus and if this is the foundation of the coalition then may it chip and shatter and less harm will come of it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to bravenak (Reply #457)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:06 PM

465. I didn't have to "try" and it isn't an answer to my post at all

Did you read it? On every count but stupid as hell or greedy as fuck "open borders" (which the author contradicts himself by quoting Klein as stating up to open borders and then claims he Klein said no such thing ???) Sanders translates to at worst the lesser of evils so in context of a primary what are the points of the criticism?

That damn Sanders protecting my aristocracy of my bus ride from my one bedroom apartment. Bastard!!! That's soooo racist.

Isn't trying to crush wages??? Makes me sick!

The folks that have the hooks of the likes Billy Tauzin, Lloyd Blankfein, Pete motherfuckin Peterson, Jeff Sharlet (seriously?!?), Marvin Odum, Joe Swedish, Jamie Dimon, Tom Donahue, Bob Dudley, David Wichmann, Jeff Bewkes, and I could go on for days, all the way to the core are the least of our problems and indeed our greatest allies? Crazy talk, they are reporting to and worse ideologically aligned with the owners of this plantation.

Sanders isn't my end game but he is about and certainly near the very least of our problems among high level politicians very much less so than even almighty and supposed to be beyond reproach black Jesus, jr even (I'll stick with the original thank you very much).

It takes balls as big as church bells to even dare try to score on Sanders for not pointing to South America instead of Scandinavian countries when you kneecap him for what can only aid and abet the Honduras coup posse too. That says plenty to me right there.

I'm starting to get clearer on who the real sheep dogs are in context though, I'm not sure in my gut yet but it seems crystal clear where we are being herded but I think it is mostly because I don't want to believe it because I've been in for most of my life but the street signs are getting clearer and clearer by the day.

Maybe it comes a time when a person, a people, a population, a society, a race of sentients are willfully and almost irretrievably lost in in their very souls that wandering in the wilderness is the only way to find the way in their hearts.

It is almost like a desperation to hogtie and generally fuck ourselves is running through people.

I'm about at you wants it, then you gets it. The uncut version. I'm gonna keep making it as hard as I can but if folks want to insist then I can't stop you but I can do my best to see to it that every time you it is the full flavored stuff.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #58)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:01 PM

117. I am very happy that Obama is your hero

and I can see that among my neighbors and friends.

This election is not about him though, it is between
HRC and Bernie, at least at this point. I hope that
O'Malley can get more recognition, since he seems
to have very good proposals, which should be incorporated
by all candidates.

I see this election as possibly the last effort for all of
the people to stop the plutocracy, if that is even
possible. That is why I throw my heart into Bernie's
campaign. I really think that for 2016 we don't
consider Obama at all; he has done the best he could
and is still trying to do more. All I can hope for is that
he is fair enough not to support any candidate until
the nomination, and I trust him to do that.
We may differ in the choice of our future nominee,
but,please, don't throw out the baby with the bath.

I know you won't though, because I have read your
postings, and have really come to like you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #117)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM

123. I'm voting for the winner of the primary.

 

I was a Bernie voter but I lost my candidate. I don't go where I'm not comfortable.
I think Obama will wait until the general as well. Yes. He is my hero. He's one in a billion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:51 PM

94. Amen, sistah! Thank you! yeah, Bernie wanted to Primary President Obama.. not too smart.

In fact it was bullshit.

I love President Obama too.. for who he is and what he's done for our country. There has been invaluable Hope and Change. I don't give a crap what the whiners have to say about anything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cha (Reply #94)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:53 PM

100. Some folks do not understand LOYALTY.

 

I'm glad I found out that piece of info. I now know why the most anti Obama folks ran to Bernie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:00 PM

116. Oh yeah.. "..disappointed..blah blah blah".. sound familiar?

And, President Obama has earned his Loyalty. He's going to leave such an amazing legacy for the next President.

bush-cheney had 8 years to fuck up our country and the Planet.. going to take longer than 8 years to fix their shite.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cha (Reply #116)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:06 PM

128. Yep. They destroyed this nation.

 

Some want to blame Obama for not being magic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #128)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:11 PM

138. they actually have acted like that. BS said Milions were ".. disappointed.." .. well, Millions

aren't disappointed and they are the Obama Coalition. That is going to be making a huge difference in the GE.. one way or the other.

I love them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cha (Reply #138)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:15 PM

146. I'm certainly not dissappointed.

 

The world was crashing and he jumped in and carried us out of the storm. Obama is MY founding father. Love him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #146)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:23 PM

156. He's mine, too... out here on the Hawaiian Islands where he was born.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #146)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:16 AM

253. The only people I'm disappointed in

are the BS artists in Congress (aka. Republicans) for wasting time and money, and all those supposedly on our side who sat out the 2010 elections (as well as misplace the blame for the country's problems).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #253)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:10 AM

269. Me too. They did all they could to stop progress.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:09 PM

136. Kick and Rec your post.

No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you.


I have supported this man from day one. White girl here, BOGGER and AfAm supporter. Trash my President, you get no respect from me ever. None. Ever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sheshe2 (Reply #136)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:13 PM

143. I have been reading each and every post from his supporters.

 

Some of them are awesome fucking people who seriously understand the issues and try to pull the rest in line. The others.... Just not cool. They trash him like he killed the American dream singly handedly, expect him to fux racism so they don't have to hear about it, trash our activists and try to tell us what to think. It's bizzarre. I wish more were like Gollygee.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #143)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:32 AM

222. Do you really want people to look at the color of a person's skin?

If that is your objective you are doing a good job, but I think this is not the right path.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #222)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:27 AM

279. Seriously? We wouldn't vote for Carson. He is a republican.

 

Obama is on OUR side. No other politictian understands our plight like he does in a high office such as the presidency. No other president. He has changed the conversation beyond the stupid colorblind bullshit piled on us, so as to silence our voices and ignore our cries for help. That colorblind shit is just blind. If you don't see my color you don't see me and my unique experience here in this nation. Don't colorblind me, it's easy for you to pretend color don't matter. Our color gets us treated like shit, while you can pretend that it doesn't matter.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #143)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:11 AM

247. Sigh.. "..the color of skin".. I would wager it's more than skin deep with President Obama. They

have not one clue.

If that were the case Dr Ben Carson would get the AA vote.. not gonna happen, oh clueless ones.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cha (Reply #247)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:18 AM

298. Or Herman Cain. Who I thought was hella funny. He made me laugh so hard.

 

That video where the guy was smoking a cigarette and the the camera went to Herman and h smiled all slowlike. Hilarious. Mike Tyson did a spoof of it. It was just as funny as the first one.
https://m.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:03 AM

186. Skin color should not enter one's thoughts when deciding to vote for a nominee ...

it should be about their record. As much as some folks want to divide people along the color of a person's skin I cannot follow along, just as I thought it was wrong in 2008, it is wrong now.

Argue the policies, not the color of a person's skin.

Is that something you really want to perpetuate?

This is barking up the wrong tree.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #186)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:09 AM

191. Sigh

It really is hopeless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #191)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:29 AM

220. The post I responded to copied below ...

you agree with this post?

Sigh? What the hell does that mean?

Continuing a divide along racial issues is just a sigh??? There are racial divides, but I will not be a contributor.

Some people in 2008 said Obama would not win because of the color of his skin, I said they were wrong, because his message rose above the color of his skin, even though I did not agree with him on certain issues.

Do NOT make this about race, that is the wrong road IMHO.

Do you want to divide, or seek a common ground? IMO opinion dividing people along the color of their skin is a loosing battle, but it is your choice. Sigh



"His supporters are anti Obama. Thats why they will NEVER win over black people or the Obama

coalition. Never.

The second people talk shit about Obama black folks give them the evil eye. I've been discussing this with people irl and all of them (the black ones) bring up the fact the they have been told crazy shit about Obama being a right wing damn near hitler by the Bernie supporters that try to pull them over to Bernie. Combine that with the way they were acting.... No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you. "

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #220)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:13 AM

249. Black people don't have the luxury of pretending life isn't about race

They face racism every single day. You and I have voted for Presidents based on race and gender our entire lives, for white men. But you insist her admiration for the first African American president is "divisive" because why exactly? After four hundred years of subjugation in this country, African Americans had the first black president., and so-called "progressives" despise him and insist everything he has done is useless because it hasn't done the only thing that counts: elevating the white upper-middle class and white middle class back to what they see as their rightful position atop the capitalist world order.

Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them. Their entire outlook is shaped by race and class. They just refuse to acknowledge it. Their entire conception of the decline of America and the Democratic party is not about inequality, which has existed since the inception of the nation. They insist the problem is recent, and it coincides with the decline of their own race and class. Only they assume that experience is universal, when that is far from the case.

Then Sanders supporters decided to attack a movement for Black Lives as a Koch brothers conspiracy, insisting BLM had no right to question Sanders, who had done more for those ingrates than anyone else. Who were they to question a great man like Sanders?

Now you think YOU have the right to tell Bravenak how to vote. I can't even begin to imagine why you think such a thing is remotely acceptable. You have no right to tell black people or ANYONE else how to vote. You get one vote and one vote only.


The divide in American society already exists, is a function of racism, racism through violence and racism through dismissal. It is the racism that gives you and I privilege, that means we will earn more in our life times for no reason other than an accident of birth. It is a racism that endangers and KILLS AAs every single day in this country.

As for black people causing division by daring to question white supremacy--which is really what they are doing--, I could not disagree more. In fact, I have learned that I have NOTHING in common with those white "progressvies." I do not agree that any challenge to white male rule is divisive. Rather it seeks to lessen divides, to combat the most violent forms of racism as well as the subtler manifestations that enable them. I do not agree that people of color need to keep their mouths shut because you want to pretend racism isn't a big deal, when thousands of African Americans are being killed by police, but you insist Bravenak's audacity in respecting a DEMOCRATIC African American president is divisive.

Who exactly do you think you are united with? It sure as hell isn't me.
Bravenak can speak for herself on that regard, if she so chooses.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #249)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:39 AM

260. Your post is BS and you seek to divide ...

racism exists, but I will not help in that respect if that is your mission. I never suggested that anyone should vote in a particular manner, I did suggest that continuing to divide people by the color of their skin is wrong.

You obviously disagree and would like to continue to divide, you'll have to continue the divide on your own. I know there is a racial bias, I choose not to participate or advocate for that divide, but I will speak out when any injustice is done, BY ANYONE.

And that includes the millions of Iraqi's displaced by Bush and Obama's willingness to look forward. Are they not people as well? His focus on not looking back should send chills to the AA community. You cannot look to the past in one respect while discounted the millions of people whose live were affected in our war of aggression.

We all have choices to make, I am saying that continuing to drive a wedge based on skin color is not the path I would choose. If that is your path, then so be it.

I will speak out whenever a crime is committed, regardless of their skin color.

I am not your enemy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #260)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:02 AM

267. The division exists

You told Bravenak she should not "vote based on race" despite the fact you have done just that in presidential elections your entire life, except for Obama. So have I. Yet that was okay, while Bravenak's admiration for Obama is not.

Bravenak lives being subject to racism each and every day of her life. Yet what is divisive to you is not the circumstances that perpetuate that, but her audacity in speaking about it. Working to silence people of color and willfully ignore the racism that is the structural foundation of this nation actively perpetuates the division you pretend can be ignored.

And mind you, this is all to promote a candidate who has refused to join the Democratic party. How is it that the only "division" that matters is an articulation of the rights and interests of people of color?

Pretending you are above race is absurd and disingenuous. She lives every day of her life being subject to racism. Insisting "division" is perpetrated by speaking out against racism is precisely what enables white supremacy to thrive.

To dovetail back to the OP, your response and many others in this thread is precisely why Bernie Sanders will not be expanding his base of support.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #249)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:24 AM

371. So well said BB!

I'm just sorry people refuse to understand.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #249)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:41 PM

416. From the first sentence on, your post is a home run. EOM. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #191)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:38 AM

226. Yup.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #191)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 09:39 AM

443. Pretty much. Yes.

Still, what happens on DU stays on DU. It has little to do with things like elections. Threads on DU calling for massive GOTV efforts, for example, sink faster than almost any other threads. DU does not affect elections in any real way, sad to say.

DU is where people post and reply about politics. The only people who know about DU are on DU. It's an interesting, frustrating place, but it's not influential when it comes to elections.

And there it is...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #443)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 09:58 AM

446. Only what we are seeing on DU

is part of a broader phenomenon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #446)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 10:53 AM

447. Yes, but still not that influential.

I suppose it will affect the Sanders campaign in a negative way, though, and he doesn't need that, certainly. Right now, his poll numbers seem to be stuck at the 20% or so level. My educated guess is that he'll continue to poll at about that level, right up to the early primary election.

He has some enthusiastic supporters. He also has some anti-Clinton folks who are using his candidacy as an excuse to further the attack against her. It can be difficult to tell the two groups apart at times. As things stand now, Hillary Clinton will sail through the primaries and cast her nomination in concrete by Super Tuesday.

If Biden enters the race, that would have some impact, probably on both Clinton and Sanders. He'll pull some polling numbers from both, I have no doubt. But, I don't think he really wants a primary or general election battle, and he'll be a solid Clinton supporter in the end, along with President Obama. Biden is already in a lot of the polls, and gets numbers just below Sanders in those polls. Iowa and New Hampshire show better numbers for Sanders, but even there Clinton has a substantial lead.

What I'm not seeing is any increase in Sanders' numbers over time. It looks to me as though he has attracted supporters, but far from enough to win the nomination. The polls showing that Hillary Clinton has high unpopularity ratings are polls of ALL voters, so they reveal that Republicans don't like her. Big surprise there.

As I've said before, I simply do not see any path for Sanders to win enough primaries to have a chance at the nomination. Unless we see significant growth in his numbers in these early polls, I won't change my opinion. I believe he has peaked, and peaked far too early.

Finally, anyone who can convince him or herself that the voting blocks of PoC and women don't really matter simply doesn't understand electoral politics in the United States. Those votes are solidly in the Clinton camp, and won't be turned with insults and attacks. That won't happen.

That's my educated guess about where things are right now. Unless something changes significantly and soon, my January prediction that Hillary Clinton will be the nominee stands. I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter on issues grounds, but I'm also an observer of real-life politics, and I don't give him much of a chance of making significant gains.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #186)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:18 AM

275. Lol! Yeah, tell a black person skin color don't matter. That's helpful.

 

Let's fucking pretend that it's that easy for black people to just pretend that skin color doesn't matter when THEIR skin color most CERTAINLY does and your skin color is the CHERISHED color in our NATION.

Do you even stop to think about how what you are saying sounds?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:35 AM

224. I've shut Obama haters IRL out of my life. If they can't see past *whatever* they've got a problem

Last edited Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I refuse to bother myself with. If someone is unable to grasp what this man is, and goes to conspiracy to explain what they do not know, they are running from the truth.

As a CCWP, they can't hurt my feelings, but they depress me a lot. Not that most WP where I live are that way, thank goodness. I have warned some who come from more homogenous white areas, to watch their mouths. Because many white people have POC in their family. They don't take kindly to bigotry, as it's personal to them. And they just may be the one who gives them a job or decides their fate in some other venue.

For a black person it is a slap in the face that never, ever ends.

I live in a nieghborhood in which whites are the minority now. I don't care, it broadens my world. We interact daily. Many are African immigrants who don't have our shared history and are stunned at white racism. They assume that in America, it's illegal to be a racist.

But as for those whose families have borne the brunt of centuries of being targetted, it's a different story. When Obama won, there was a look in their eyes that was so moving, like they were in a new world and accepted at last and the nightmare was coming to an end. Here was a man without a blemish, who had done all the right things we're all taught to do, and a role model.

Then came the backlash. We felt like we couldn't even say his name in public because of the media voices. But I did, I praised him and it got me in trouble with some and the looks I got from those whites really showed a lot, I was no longer safe to be around, I guess. They bought the BS. And it's never ended, just mutated and gotten worse.

I recall MLK, Jr. saying that in their resentment and refusal to treat POC equally, 'I fear when we have come into our inheritance, that all that will be left is a burned down house.' (Or words to that effect.) He meant the country would be destroyed to prevent blacks having their rights and America fulfilling the words of the Declaration of Independence. He said that America was not a place, but an ideal of Equality.

Sadly, he was right, for a long time whites have withdrawn their energy and funding to make sure there is nothing left.

But that is wrong. The wealth they had came from others, and it was only on loan with God's grace or forbearance, for them to do good things with it for all peoples. Look at what they did with that wealth and power. It was good for a while for them, then not good at all. And there was a problem to begin with, but that's for another discussion.

Now they want to destroy the engine that would make things equal, the government with its power to put whites in their place as it did during the days of integrating the schools. That Civil War II, when whites went after others for a better Union. But now the rebels against Equality have just about finished their task and now want to take out all the wealth for themselves.

I gotta go. I may make an OP about why we are not going to get Sander's vision unless we deal with these issues. I'll post it in AA. See you later, bravenak. Your posts are inspiring.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #224)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:30 AM

281. I agree. That you for this post.

 

Everytime I read one, I feel like you said it better than I could.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:40 AM

229. Holy hell. I am really surprised you pulled the hater card. I am also surprised that you played

he's black and thus, we don't care about policy. All we care about is color. Essentially, you just said, criticize a black president for his policy positions and black people will hate you. Color is more important than policy. (FYI, I viscerally understand the importance of a DEMOCRATIC Black President - if Condoleeza Rice had run in 2008 - and I really truly believe that she could have run a competitive campaign - and if won, I would have questioned the sanity of any black person who voted for her.)

Will you extend the same consideration to gender? I am a woman, should I ignore Hillary's policy positions and give the stink eye to anyone who criticizes those positions because she can potentially be OUR ONLY WOMAN PRESIDENT. You are a woman, is that your criteria for supporting a woman's campaign?

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Damn near Hitler. Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. What Hitlerish ideas do they accuse Obama of advancing? Specifically.

And finally, Obama himself has admitted that his policies are 1980s moderate Republican. I've been fighting moderate Republican ideology since 1976. As a Democrat, they were not attractive then. They are not attractive now. And I sure as hell do not want to support another moderate Republican (i.e. Hillary)

Obama says he'd be seen as moderate Republican in 1980s
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican,"

He said this as if were proud of being a moderate Republican.

God damnit. That is nothing to be proud of. I expect more of a Democrat than being a 1980s (Reagan, I will remind) moderate Republican.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #229)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:15 AM

273. That will get your candidate exactly zero black votes. Congratulations.

 

I'm telling you that what you are doing is counterproductive. It wins you no votes and loses you plenty. Why nobody understands that getting the most votes wins is remarkable to me. Yes. Keep repeating negative things to Obama supporters. It makes perfect sense if you want his voters to NOT vote for your guy. YES.

Hillary says kind things about Obama and so do her supporters. That's why they are winning. We like him lots. We don't care WHY you don't just that you Don't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #273)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:49 AM

287. Surprised that you did not address not one single point. You went immediately for emotion.

If you are comfortable platitudes over policy. Then so be it. If that is what you are willing to support. Then so be it.

No. I do not like Hillary. I fought tooth and nail against policies that harmed the least amongst us while she was bragging about those policies as if they were a coup. Policies that put an unprecedented amount of PoC in prison.

And then "Welfare reform". The most horrible disgusting thing ever to happen to the least amongst us and a policy she gleefully championed.

"I have Black friends."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #287)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:58 AM

291. I told you how to win. You refuse to realize that most people have emotions.

 

And that is the problem in his campaign. Life ain't all policy and numbers and ideology, if it were we would be robots. Black folks are very intelligent AND very expressive emotiinally and creatively. And we are loyal to a fault, look at how loyal we are to the democratic party, even wealthy black who would BENEFIT from the low tax policies republicans push. But most don't. Why? Because they are EMOTIONALLY tied to the black community, and they to them. We ARE like a big ass family, and we don't like the disrespect for one of our own for so many years from right AND left; the left who should have had his back but tried to stab him in it.

If you think elections aee won on policy, more power to ya. How the FUCK did Bush win? People liked him. People like Obama. We vote for the person in our own party who can win and that we like and feel comfortable with. We already know Hillary and she is saying what we want to hear. I agree with everything Bernie says and am 97% with him on policy. But as a human I have my likes and dislikes and emotions. He wanted Obama primaried. Not cool with that.

Now, I tried to tell you all to be nice to black folks if you want to win. I see that you think that is bad advice. Fine. Do it your way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #291)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:28 AM

305. Yet. Somehow, you were cool with Bernie two weeks ago. I am totally on board for being nice

to black folks. That is why I will not support Hillary who championed policies that threw more black folks in jail and threw more black folks into poverty. Bernie has been nice to black folks for a long time. Hillary, not so much.

But, I am not addressing the Black community. I am addressing you.

Do you stand with a candidate that championed polices to put massive amounts of people of color into jails and prison or do you stand with the candidate who fought against such policies when they were proposed?

Do you stand with a candidate who advocated to throw more PoC children into poverty or do you stand with the candidate you protested that policy from the get go?

Indeed. I am supporting a candidate that has been nice to black AND brown folks for a long time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #305)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:48 AM

313. I'm still 100% cool with Bernie and 100% behind the policies he discusses.

 

I'm forgiving him for the primary, but I don't like it. Still don't like Hillary. If I did I would never even bother offering up suggestions or telling you how you are messing up.

I know about the policy. One of the reasons I hate the Clintons is because I feel like they smiled in our faces and sold us some bullshit and stabbed us in the back. We'd never let them get away with that bullshit again, but they keep apologizing and asking us for suggestions and listening to what we say and incorporating that into the message. They have pretty much been forgivenb(really, the more you guys repeat it the more people just forgive them), but we will be watching them like hawks for missteps. I only have one vote. You need millions of votes like mine. I can only try to tell you what I know.

Black people are forgiving. We forgive slavery, Jim Crow, whatever, we want to move forward and if we held a grudge for every offense this nation would burn. Most are VERY religious. Hence the forgiving. Hillary loves her some church. She will go to a black church and pray her ass off and sing some gospel and reaaly feel that shit. Black folks love people that love jesus. We and hispanics are some of the most religious folks in this nation. I went to church 2 or 3 days a week and did not consider myself a conservative christian. It was normal for black people to spend alot of time at church. Half the sermons are about forgiveness, but that's because we have soooo much to forgive.

I am an atheist. I'd rather not vote for anybody than vote for Hillary. I will sit out the primary possibly rather than vote for her. But I will not trash talk her. And I will attend church on occasion for fun. I don't mind. I go to be with my people.

Can't win black votes unless you understand them and speak with them and empathize. You have to get emotionally involved.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #313)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:07 AM

322. Okay.She will sing for Jesus. How will a Jew ever have a chance with the black and hispanic

communities? I am not trying to be difficult here but if the test for Black and Hispanic U.S. is singing praise for Jesus, then a Jew has no chance in those communities.

No matter his life's work.

Depressing as hell. I am going to go to bed now. And weep a bit about the bigotry that flies from every direction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #322)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:21 AM

325. Black people love jews because Jesus was a jew. Don't even try that.

 

He would have to come to them and speak with them personally. Mitt Romney had problems too, but he was the nominee and people voted for him. Black people will vote for the Democrat. But you have to make him the nominee and you cannot do that by dissing Obama or being dismissive of their world view, or attacking them with the failures of the Clintons. They like the Clintons, regardless of welfare reform and mass incarceration. You have to promote your candidate positively and he needs to connect with people emotionally. His supporters have to check each other on the pushing vital voting blocks AWAY from Bernie. He is the one that has to attract voters, Hillary just has to keep what she has, and it's Hello Madame President. I will vote for the nominee. But the person who gets the Obama coalition gets the black vote. Hillary praises the president and so do her supporters. They make black people FEEL comfortable being around them. That is how you win.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #229)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 09:47 AM

445. Nobody's playing card games.

Some people are providing information about what influences a bloc of voters. An important bloc of voters. Other people are not only not listening, they're doubling down on the very thing that is being brought up.

Black voters. Hispanic voters. Women. All are blocs of voters that can decide any national election. Offend them if you wish, but that will not have a good influence on the success of the candidate you apparently support. Accuse them of being stupid or of playing card games and you simply reinforce their decisions.

You don't like President Obama. We understand that. We don't care, really. We're looking at what has been achieved in a hostile legislative environment. We do like President Obama. You don't like Hillary Clinton. We understand that. But, see, a lot of people want another Democratic President and we can see the poll numbers as well as anyone else.

This is not a card game. This is a campaign. Someone will win. Nobody's playing cards here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:07 AM

243. sorry but Obama's going to get richly deserved criticism

For many of the stances he's taken. If African American people are going to internalize criticism against Obama I really don't know what to say to that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ibegurpard (Reply #243)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:22 AM

255. I criticize policy

and I have had African Americans here agree with me. What I don't do is vilify the president. There is a difference. The latter generally comes from the notion that the president is omnipotent, that he can do anything and therefore everything is his fault. We see the counter side of that in the astronomical expectations for Sanders. If he were ever elected, people would be disappointed since they refuse to understand the limitations of the constitutional office of the presidency.

Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them, the white middle and upper middle-class.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #255)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:26 AM

303. "Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and

women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them, the white middle and upper middle-class."

Good post, thank you, BB.. very important issues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ibegurpard (Reply #243)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:36 AM

283. Realize that you are harming your candidate and don't talk about us like that.

 

That passive aggresiveness is what I mean. Yes we internalize attacks against him from our own allies. And it was much more than criticism. Piece of shit used car salesman? All those recs? Those reccers are the same ones yelling the loudest for team Bernie. Why would black folks want to belong to a group that trashes him so thoroughly and tells us we're stupid (basically, uninformed they call us)? We don't want to belong to that group. The same group hate Holder, Lynch, loves Cornell West who says racist shit about Obama that only a black person can say and they cheer him on and promote his support of Bernie.... They promote him as better than Obama. Alot of us only started voting BECAUSE of Obama and many will follow his lead. Hillary is smart for being quiet and saying nice shit about Obama. The more she promotes Obama the more black votes she gets.
Now. Do not say I did not tell you this. Mark this post because I'm fucking prescient.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:07 AM

346. Being critical of Obama is not hate.

Obama has been a good President during a difficult period of our nation's history.
But, he is not perfect and many of his policies demonstrate this.
Being critical of policy is completely legit.

Now considering all of the shitty things that Clinton herself has said about Obama over the years, why is there a disconnect when it come to Sanders who has been respectfully critical?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to blackspade (Reply #346)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:36 AM

356. Please read this post I wrote at this link.

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=488800

It is very long but it explains much of what you want to know. If I missed any of your concerns, please let me know and I will clarify it for you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bravenak (Reply #356)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:16 AM

390. Just finished.

Great post. That is a great OP all on it's own.
I just want to say that I appreciate your candor and your perspective.
I think we agree at a basic level on most issues surrounding the primary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to blackspade (Reply #390)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:18 AM

393. Awesome. Thank you, that makes me happy.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:42 PM

6. It's easy to understand the attacks on Hillary:

Abject fear. The fear that, if she (or even an opposing Republican) is elected, the same system will continue, the one under which we've been suffering for several decades: increasing big money in lawmaking, decreasing public participation in politics, and media that enable all of it.

Given this possibility, and that her election will be sold as some real alternative to the ALEC-driven process, it's no wonder that many of Bernie's acolytes are over the top in their fear and subsequent "attack mode" behavior.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:44 PM

7. I agree.....

I've got my bee keeper suit on.....they can swarm away.....the only person they can hurt is Bernie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:45 PM

8. Hillary supporters have always thought first about the party

 

Remember this?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #8)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:51 PM

14. You'd think the racist dog whistles used by the Clintons in 2008 would keep their supporters humble.

But they just keep flinging the feces and acting all concerned about Bernie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #14)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:55 PM

16. We don't hate her supporters

 

We are too busy disliking her policies and how she maneuvers through the campaign.




Which started in 1992.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #16)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:02 PM

22. I'm not a fan of the ones who swift boat Bernie on DU.

I'm wondering how many of them will show up to applaud the op?

If you're into hypocrisy this should be entertaining.



whoops, I see some of them have already recc'd it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #22)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:04 PM

26. No I am not a fan, either

 

But they are just ......





oops, got bored just thinking about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #16)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:03 PM

24. Your prior responses to me haven't had anything to do with policy

 

Have you turned a new page?

On edit... I suppose you are just being wry judging by you post #17. New page has not been turned.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #24)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:05 PM

28. You don't discuss policy

 

So I just mock your posts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:08 PM

30. Sometimes

 

I just love having the gif of the community gals giving it a thumbs up. It makes me laugh even more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:58 PM

111. WTF.

Good lord, this is what we have come to?

Such civility.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #111)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:30 AM

306. Had to illustrate what the OP was talkin' about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:31 AM

282. You may want to consider deleting this one post

 

Friendly suggestion

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #282)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:41 AM

285. Why? It's common knowledge on DU and elsewhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5683044

During the 2008 Democratic primaries, several writers criticized Hillary Clinton's campaign's reliance on code words and innuendo seemingly designed to frame Barack Obama's race as problematic, saying Obama was characterized by the Clinton campaign and its prominent supporters as anti-white due to his association with Reverend Jeremiah Wright, as able to attract only black votes, as anti-patriotic, a drug user, possibly a drug seller, and married to an angry, ungrateful black woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics


Is this the first you've heard of it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #285)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:49 AM

286. You talk about dog whistles and then talk about flinging shit

 

On the heels of several heartfelt posts made by people of color. It seems insensitive to use that particular analogy. Obama was also compared to apes. I will delete this response in a few minutes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #286)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:52 AM

289. You think AA's don't know about Hillary's 2008 campaign?

I've read many posts from AAs on DU criticizing the Clintons for what they did.

Who do you think called them out on it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #289)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:56 AM

290. This is not about 2008. It's about your insensitive comment

 

This about you telling poc they fling shit. What animal flings shit? And you talk about dog whistles?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #290)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:02 AM

292. I said HC supporters were flinging feces, last I checked most of them were white.

Nice try, though.

beam me up scottie (30,620 posts)

14. You'd think the racist dog whistles used by the Clintons in 2008 would keep their supporters humble.

But they just keep flinging the feces and acting all concerned about Bernie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=487706

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #292)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:07 AM

293. On the heels of several heartfelt posts by Hillary supporters that are POC

 

Could you not come up with some other analogy?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #293)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:14 AM

296. That analogy is used here all the time.

I posted that at 8:51 pm, not even a half hour after the thread started and I was responding to a poc.

So I'm not sure why you think I should feel ashamed of myself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #296)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:17 AM

297. It's all about context......

 

If you feel it just fine and dandy, then perhaps you have little wiggle room to complain about that Stormfront site you so vehemently raise in several threads around DU. Right?

I don't plan on alerting to your own dog whistle....but will no longer give you fair warning either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #297)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:21 AM

300. Nope, it's all about the hypocrisy, race and religion have nothing to do with it.

If y'all are going to fling shit about how badly Bernie supporters behave, you'd better be ready to get some of it on you too.

I didn't link to hate groups, I don't post flame bait and I stay out of positive Hillary threads because I like and respect many of her supporters.

My conscience is clear.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #300)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:34 AM

308. Bull

 

But so long as you have yourself convinced......

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #308)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:39 AM

309. Like I said, I know I have to live with myself after the primaries.

If I swift boated Hillary the way her supporters do Bernie I couldn't stand myself.

I didn't do it in 2008 and I won't start now.

ymmv

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #309)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:54 AM

315. Most people can live with themselves just fine

 

Regardless of any cruel actions, or careless statements. I'm not impressed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #315)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:00 AM

318. This from someone who posted an op calling Bernie supporters "assholes"?

You're not the only one who's unimpressed.

I didn't post any cruel or careless statements but if anyone is hurt after reading the posts in this thread that's on you.

You posted flamebait and now you're reaping what you sowed.

Think about that before you try to blame everyone else.

My conscience is clear.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #318)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:18 AM

323. I assume you are referring to the blog....I've never said such a thing

 

Do try to keep things straight.

Unfortunately speaking, the blog does point out a serious problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to artislife (Reply #8)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM

55. You realize some of these folks have some mental stability/illness issues right?

And the video was clearly a set up...

You get that right?

This is the same kind of tactic that gets used on Planned Parenthood. Do you want me to find the craziest Bernie supporters and say that they represent ALL of Bernie's supporters? I don't think so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #55)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:29 PM

61. The people that the OP

 

is refering to may have already trumped your find.


There are bad actors, wacka doodles, angry, single issue, bigoted supporters of every candidate.

My post was to reflect back what the original poster thinks is new and only applies to Sanders supporters.


But do what you need to.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #55)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:33 PM

67. "Do you want me to find the craziest Bernie supporters and say that they represent ALL of Bernie's"

You mean like the op did?

Maybe you should be wagging that finger at them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:48 PM

93. The OP which said things like this...

All Democrats are on the same team. The ultimate goal of every Democratic candidate, including Bernie Sanders, is to make sure Democrats get and keep the White House. I know for a fact that Bernie feels the same way; I’ve even heard him say that. He’s running as a Democrat because he doesn’t want to run an independent campaign that would make it a lot easier for a Republican to win.


and this...

To be fair, I’ve seen a few Clinton supporters do the same


Take your blinders off... sure it happens on both sides but Sheepshank is not the one who posted that ridiculous video, a one "hit" wonder on youtube nonetheless.

You can, and should do better.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #93)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:52 PM

97. No, the one who called his supporters "assholes". Or did you miss that on purpose?

You're the one only scolding Bernie's supporters.

Since you claim to support him maybe you should be spreading that condemnation around.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #97)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM

102. A rediculous RW trashy attempt a "gotcha" video was posted...

I call out crap when I see it.

Shit like this makes me agree with the damn OP.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #102)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:02 PM

118. No, you don't.

You only call out "crap" when one side does it.

Which is exactly why you agree with the op.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #118)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM

125. .

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #125)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:07 PM

129. .

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #129)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:09 PM

135. Such a great level of progressive discourse we were able to maintain eh?

It's getting old.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #135)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:11 PM

137. You expected something else in this thread?

I knew exactly what it would turn into.

When I want progressive discourse I don't look for it in flamebait where one group is called assholes and the other responds with gleeful hypocrisy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #137)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:12 PM

139. I don't look for it on DU anymore.

Well played, primary season.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agschmid (Reply #139)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:13 PM

142. Some places are still peaceful.

I'm a fan of A&A.

And after 2008 nothing shocks me anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:57 PM

17. Let it go.

 

You have concerned yourself enough. You deserve a peaceful Saturday night.

Call a friend, pet the dog---enjoy your life.

Let the worries of the Sanders' campaign completely disolve away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #9)


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM

46. It's simple. Their ability to come up with a strategy is extremely limited.

 

They see it as they want candidate X and if candidate Y is leading, to overcome that they have to attack candidate Y.

Those folks relentlessly attacking Hillary hoping that will help Bernie don't get any of the complexities of human dynamics beyond that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #46)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:28 PM

60. It often appears to be quite that simple nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #60)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM

107. Yup.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #46)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:50 PM

176. Where does Hillary stand on the TPP and the XL pipeline?

It is her policies and her strong ties to Wall Street that we object to. What policies? Well she better speak up and say where she stands on critical issues.

We don't want another destructive trade deal! We want the dirty Canadian crude to stay in the ground!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Enthusiast (Reply #176)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:00 AM

381. This is a case in point. Promoting Bernie shouldn't be about comparing him to Hillary at all. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #381)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:23 AM

396. It should be about comparing the policies of one vs the policies of the other.

That is precisely what it should be about and all it should be about.

If Hillary will not admit to her positions on critical policy issues that should be considered a huge negative by everyone, even by Hillary supporters.

Most of us on DU feel she will not admit her positions because her positions are very unpopular. We can't handle the truth?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:46 PM

10. Well, thank you so very much.

I have never been called a self-righteous asshole up to now.

I have never attacked HRC personally, but disagree with many
of her policies.Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous asshole.

I don't like to be told in answer to a question to wait until the candidate
is elected.Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous asshole.

I deplore that she played a race card during the 2008 election and
have heard no apology. Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous
asshole.

Sheez, I am leaning a lot about myself from the HRC supporters.

Thank you very much for the insight you seem to have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #10)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:01 PM

21. No one is talking about 100%

 

And I'm sorry if you taking this personally. As you indicate, this blog did not ispeak of you. It clearly does not speak to poster #2'. However, the blog seems to encapsulate the sentiments I have been seeing and feeling for many of the vocal Bernie supporters as of late. Just look at those follow up posts on this thread. I know I've tried to talk to the individuals...there are non so blind as those that will not see.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #21)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:15 PM

43. Then let me tell you something about

the last Bernie volunteer meeting I attended.

All of us agreed to talk about Bernie's plans and
proposals and not to bring up HRC at all.

If however the person we talk to brings up HRC
we can point out the differences in their policies,
yet telling her/him that the main issue is to vote
in our caucuses.

We all as volunteers respect Bernie's wishes to
keep the conversation positive and on the issues.

I believe that most of Bernie's volunteers all over
the 50 states will act that way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:50 PM

13. "The GOP is our target. The GOP is our target."

Although it seems Bernie Sanders supporters are the target.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progressoid (Reply #13)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:41 PM

81. Makes perfect sense

 

since it's the only avenue left to attack Sanders, while .. of course...
pretending to be "concerned" that his supporters will "mess it up" for
Bernie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:59 PM

19. I will vote for the Dem nominee, whoever he/she is

But I may have to hold my nose when voting for Sanders simply because I see so many obnoxious posts from his supporters on DU

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frances (Reply #19)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:04 PM

122. That's the spirit. Do it for the good of the party. You don't have to like us, but we appreciate

your vote. At least you can sleep well at night knowing what you see is what you get with Bernie. That should be at least a little bit comforting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frances (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:28 AM

304. If Clinton should win the primary

I'll hold my nose and vote for her in the general because of her policies not because of some obnoxious supporters on the internet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:00 PM

20. Don't overinflate your ego. Most voters never heard of DU

 

and don't concern themselves with petty squabbles on this site.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Larkspur (Reply #20)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM

54. A point of clarification....I absolutely realize your statement to be true.

 

What I found interesting is that a non DU blog is seeing the same behaviors elsewhere and outside of the DU bubble

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #54)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM

80. Oh it's not just that blog.. The Obama Diary which has over 30 million hits since Oct '09 has

Tweets from Black and White POSTERs saying the same thing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #54)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:02 PM

119. This is not the only place outside the DU bubble where it's noticeable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lorraine-devon-wilke/bernie-bullying-and-other_b_7908216.html

I too find it interesting that this view is not just an observation based on happenings here in our little DU world, Sheepshank. Of course, there's usually a sense of "maybe it's just me, but..."

However, it's not just a case of Hillary people here on DU who are supposedly just whining about somebody being mean to them, either. No longer. Like it or not, confirm it or deny it, this is becoming a thing. This and the OP both appear to be independent, objective testimony. I'd venture to say nobody from here (or from anywhere within the Hillary camp, for that matter) ordered or forced either of these bloggers to write what they did.

Guys - we all need to remind ourselves repeatedly from WHOEVER'S camp - that we ALL face THE SAME common enemy. The enemy is the GOP. NOT various segments of Democrats.

Family feuds are NOT helpful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to calimary (Reply #119)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:12 PM

140. Thank for posting that. It's a very good read.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to calimary (Reply #119)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:55 PM

180. Even better than the op. Well said and great examples

 

It's all backfiring for Bernie Supporters and judging by this thread, doubling down is so much more important than trying to moderate.

The rub is in the way too many of his supporters are comporting themselves in their effort to promote the cause. I don't mind the enthusiastic postings about big crowds, electrifying speeches, or hope-inducing polls. The ideas he's touting, the kind of government he's visualizing, the core principals of his platform are all admirable, and it's easy to see why people are excited. That's how it should go in campaigns, certainly at this point in the process. I don't even mind the countless invitations I've received to join this "Bernie group" on Facebook, or come to that Bernie event in Hollywood. Invite away; I'm a big girl and I have no problem being gracious in my responses.

But lately I'm seeing too many threads on the topic turn into sadly-typical spitting contests, with those supporting Bernie flinging epithets at Hillary supporters, breathlessly listing all her purported transgressions and foibles, denigrating her accomplishments, insulting her personal decisions, and acting as though anyone who supports her is an idiot who doesn't grasp the folly of their ways. I've had Bernie supporters get snarly with me, bait me to answer questions about why I might support Hillary, push me to defend her record, explain her business decisions, even parse her choice to stay with her husband. As a woman I find it appalling, but frankly, many of those most zealous on this topic are women... Hillary has always had the capacity to trip the wire with some on that side of the gender aisle!


And the example of swarming the Jane Goodall web, was a prime example!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Reply #54)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:50 PM

418. Still that blog is not read by most voters

 

and most voters don't blame the candidate for what his/her unpaid supporters say or do. Unpaid supporters are not official campaign spokespeople. Most are ordinary folks, like most voters are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:02 PM

23. Google Milt Shook Hillary Clinton tells ya everything ya need to know

next..........

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #23)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:30 PM

62. Yeah, ask black people their experience with Bernie supporters after #Blacklivesmatter you cant

 

dismiss this as an author who might be too close to Hillary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #62)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM

78. Did BLM choose Bernie because as a former FLOTUS Hillary is surrounded by secret service?

wonder what kind of reception they'd have gotten if they had tried the same thing at one of her speaking engagements?

as to the online comment prove each and every offensive comment actually came from a Bernie suppoter moreover I found the complete denigration of Bernies civil rights record offensive with one Twitter star going as to say as he was required to march with MLK, got news no he was not required, he easily could have supported from afar without putting his life on line, because that's how it was back then

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azurnoir (Reply #78)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:51 PM

95. Sure, keep dismissing the concerns of POC here. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #95)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM

104. I'm not dismissing anything, pointing out facts is not the same as dismissal

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #95)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:08 PM

133. Dude, that was last week's smear. Get with the times.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #133)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:53 PM

178. +1 an entire shit load.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #133)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:24 AM

215. I guess, then, this would be this week's "smear"

In a far more public forum than Netroots Nation (which, btw, I attended back in 2007 when it was still Yearly Kos, and I sat next to someone who scoffed when Obama was mentioned, saying "no one will ever elect a black man." I told that "progressive" he might be surprised.)

So here's the new problem, following the BLM incident and the Hispanic incident, from an article about the various candidates at Friday's National Urban League conference:

The conference Friday had offered a chance for Senator Bernie Sanders, the Vermont independent who is challenging Mrs. Clinton for the Democratic nomination and has generated a loyal following among white liberals, to appeal more directly to black voters. But his speech highlighted just how much work he still has to do.

At one point, Mr. Sanders begged for the crowd’s indulgence to discuss his campaign platform before focusing on the “save our cities” subject of the gathering. But he called that “your theme” — an off-key remark, and one that echoed a speech he made on Thursday, in which he twice referred to Latinos as “your people” before the United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/politics/hillary-clinton-hits-jeb-bush-first-and-hard-in-speech-on-race.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


Yes, he has a lot to learn about campaigning and winning voters when he is invited to speak to a group and then, pushing aside the theme of "their" conference, wants to talk about his own agenda first. There are a lot of rough edges there. Perhaps it's just that he knows he's not really in it to win it, but rather simply to push his ideas. That's fine. But it's not going to win over large blocs Democratic, and especially minority Democratic, voters.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #62)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:45 PM

88. Please, ask us. I have stories. Tell them to everyone I meet.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:07 PM

29. Good description of the Hillary posters on this site, alas

 

Constant "attack, attack, attack" against the Bernie posters here, and no attempt to discuss OPs, issues, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:12 PM

35. "Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are

self-righteous assholes."

Wow.. Milt doesn't mince words, Sheepshank!

Mahalo for the OP

Reply to this post