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Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:26 PM Aug 2015

The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters

I honestly thought it was a DU phenomena. The over the top insulting, belittling, swarming any Hillary post. Apparently not, as the the following blog posted on 7/28/15 seems to indicate.

By Milt Shook

Let me start off by saying I love #Bernie Sanders. He’s a good man, with a good political sense in many ways, although he is in no way perfect. He’s a really good Senator for the state of Vermont, and he’d also make a great candidate for president, except for two things…

The first one he can fix. He has a low profile, and most people don’t know who he is. I know this comes as a shock to his supporters, who drool over him as if he was a supermodel at a frat party, but most people really don’t know who he is. That can be addressed, but it would mean that he start with him and his supporters introducing himself to voters, to increase his name recognition and profile, rather than giving stump speeches. No one can only give stump speeches for 8-9 months and expect to do well in primaries; it doesn’t work that way. To win in the primaries, you have to build to a crescendo, and the way you do that is by getting your name out there first and listening to people and finding out what matters most to them and honing your campaign to meet that.

See, here’s the thing people need to realize about primaries; they’re not actually elections. You’re not choosing the president; you’re choosing the Democrat best able to beat whichever Republican emerges from that Klown Kar. It doesn’t matter what your ideals are or what a candidate says on the issues, it’s about who can win. Even if Sanders was to win, he’d still have the party create the platform. Passion doesn’t sell during primary season; voters are looked to competence and confidence. Having big crowds is great for the image to an extent, but when the candidate seems shocked by every huge crowd he sees, the positive effect is blunted. Consider Howard Dean in 2004; there was lots of enthusiasm for Dean, and he was looking to be a shoo-in as an upset winner of the Democratic nomination, until he screamed.

With that scream, every issue position didn’t change. What changed was his image as cool, calm and collected. And then…

This is the second thing that could sink Bernie Sanders; his followers. It wasn’t the scream that sunk Dean, it was his hardcore followers, who went into “defense” mode and started trashing everyone who wasn’t as “passionate” about him as they were. And the same misguided fervor is what could sink Sanders.

Sanders’ hardcore far left progressives (known on this blog as PUBs, or the Progressive Unicorn Brigade) who think that whatever or whoever they support is wonderful and perfect and will make the entire world a great big rainbow full of singing and peace and all that crap. That part is fine; I have no problem with idealism. It’s a little sappy at times, but it’s harmless. What’s not harmless is that these followers have a tendency to belittle and smack down those who aren’t as enthusiastic as they are. They are preachy and whiny and they feel like the only way they can win is to tear down the other candidates running against them, which is the opposite of true.

All Democrats are on the same team. The ultimate goal of every Democratic candidate, including Bernie Sanders, is to make sure Democrats get and keep the White House. I know for a fact that Bernie feels the same way; I’ve even heard him say that. He’s running as a Democrat because he doesn’t want to run an independent campaign that would make it a lot easier for a Republican to win. We can’t afford that. And yet, in the last week, I have seen numerous professional left articles, as well as Facebook posts and Tweets from high profile Sanders supporters trashing Hillary Clinton, as if the only way Sanders can possibly win is to pull Clinton down into the mud. I even saw one prominent pro lefty Sander supporter attack Martin O’Malley, and I wonder, what would be the point of that?

To be fair, I’ve seen a few Clinton supporters do the same, but I think the ratio is about 10-to-1 in favor of Bernie, and since there are roughly five times as many Clinton supporters as Sanders supporters, in all, that

Sanders supporters need to understand, if they really want their candidate to win, alienating every other Democrat is not the way to do it. Telling, or even implying, that everyone who doesn’t support Sanders is stupid and clueless and not a “real progressive” because they don’t get sexually aroused whenever they see a Sanders bumper sticker is not the way to win. Consider the plight of Hillary Clinton in 2008. Barack Obama took a positive approach to his campaign, while Hillary supporters, who started pouty, whiny groups such as Party Unity Means Authority, better known as PUMA or 18 Million Voices, were forced to lick their wounds in second place, precisely because they were nasty.

Now, Hillary Clinton is playing it smart. She’s letting Sanders have his day and she’s on a “listening tour;” something that every serious candidate should engage in. Her demeanor this time around is as a statesperson; a rational, reasonable person who can attract enough voters to beat whoever emerges from the GOP Klown Kar. That is how you win elections; by looking like you should be president.

The GOP is our target.

The GOP is our target.

You do not win elections by tearing down opponents. The only candidate I can think of who won that way was Ronald Reagan, and only the first time. People want to elect a president who works hard and who looks like he’s up to his job. Having out of control supporters trashing everyone who doesn’t think like them is a guaranteed loser.

Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are self-righteous assholes.

If you want a progressive president, act like it, for chrissakes.

From:: The One Thing That Will Stop Bernie Sanders… His Supporters.
https://badgop.com/.../the-one-thing-that-will-stop-bernie-sanders-his-supp...

465 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters (Original Post) Sheepshank Aug 2015 OP
I've tried to explain this ... JoePhilly Aug 2015 #1
I am sorry to say you do have an uphill climb Sheepshank Aug 2015 #11
I'm one of those ... JoePhilly Aug 2015 #15
Reasonable Sheepshank Aug 2015 #33
I feel exactly the same way. n/t pnwmom Aug 2015 #149
What do you mean if he has time to flip you? passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #165
Given the paranthetical aside is next to the primary mythology Aug 2015 #254
You are probably right, but it can be read either way passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #261
Remember the band valiantly playing as the Titanic sank? Plucketeer Aug 2015 #184
Bernie has not attacked Hillary. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #25
No, its some of his supporters who are attacking her ... JoePhilly Aug 2015 #31
The same thing goes on from the other side. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #39
That's not what I said. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #53
The polls already show that Bernie can beat Republicans Larkspur Aug 2015 #201
Which polls have shown that Bernie can beat the republicans? ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #409
There as a poll that showed in swing states Bernie was either beating or close to beating Larkspur Aug 2015 #422
It is not an attack to question whether Sanders is viable in the general election Gothmog Aug 2015 #423
What is the difference between criticizing a candidate and "attacking" Armstead Aug 2015 #50
One reason there truly is a difference. NCTraveler Aug 2015 #130
Sanders supporters are being slimed, just like Howard Dean's supporters were in 2003-2004 Larkspur Aug 2015 #209
Please. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #373
That's not defenable, and you damn well know it Armstead Aug 2015 #375
It was defended. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #376
If someone bases their support or opposition to a candidate based on.... Armstead Aug 2015 #380
You are not listening. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #385
People are individuals Armstead Aug 2015 #399
I think you mean: some of Bernie's (alleged) 'supporters' 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #87
It's a matter of perspective. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #231
^^^I wish I could rec your post^^^ beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #307
I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her. bravenak Aug 2015 #354
I like this post — a lot. Raine1967 Aug 2015 #359
Thank you. bravenak Aug 2015 #361
I read your words here, Braveank, I always appreciate them because Raine1967 Aug 2015 #368
I know exactly what you mean. bravenak Aug 2015 #382
We are a lily white family...for now Sheepshank Aug 2015 #395
It's eye opening, right? Raine1967 Aug 2015 #420
I read all your words, too, bravenak, and yours as well, Raine1967. calimary Aug 2015 #435
I hope that Bravenak see this. Raine1967 Aug 2015 #436
You should c&p this to Bravenak's op Sheepshank Aug 2015 #437
Thank you so very much Sheepshank Aug 2015 #378
You are welcome. bravenak Aug 2015 #379
An excellently written post. blackspade Aug 2015 #394
Thanks Boo! bravenak Aug 2015 #397
No, thank you! blackspade Aug 2015 #442
I am glad that you started a thread for this post Gothmog Aug 2015 #424
Me too. It went well I think.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #425
Just be nice to Black people ? orpupilofnature57 Aug 2015 #426
You can just leave me alone after that nasty post that was hidden. Number23 was right.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #427
Why do Black voters like Hillary so much? JDPriestly Aug 2015 #440
This is a terrible way to approach that question. bravenak Aug 2015 #441
So, basically, a lot of Black voters are happy with Obama and liBer JDPriestly Aug 2015 #453
Yes. Most black people are very happy with Obama. bravenak Aug 2015 #454
I really appreciate your post. I can't change anything by myself, but JDPriestly Aug 2015 #455
I'm just glad I'm able to have an honest conversation on race for once. bravenak Aug 2015 #459
He doesn't have to attack, his followers are doing the job for him. George II Aug 2015 #77
That is the way you see it passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #163
The same is true from Hillary supporters toward Bernie Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #383
Correct ... its his supporters ... JoePhilly Aug 2015 #372
It seems that Hillary supporters see policy differences as Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #384
That's you projecting. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #387
So, pointing out that she refuses to answer questions Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #389
Sure. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #400
I'll start with #4 Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #413
I been saying... For Hillary to win the primary,she has to convert LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS Autumn Aug 2015 #27
You are smarter than this. JoePhilly Aug 2015 #36
Oh yeah? If I was interested enough I could give you link after link proving you wrong. Autumn Aug 2015 #48
No one is attacking Bernie? passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #169
It started the day after his campaign kickoff in Burlington, VT, Tues. May 26 appalachiablue Aug 2015 #434
She's up by 40 points, not many left to "convert". Nice try at turnabout though. George II Aug 2015 #84
I didn't try a turnabout George. I just straight up mocked the post cause that door swings 2 ways. Autumn Aug 2015 #134
It certainly does. passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #170
It very much swings two ways, Paka Aug 2015 #294
Sounds like a repeat of of 2008 doesn't it? Enthusiast Aug 2015 #168
Criticism of issues is fair game, but when they call Hillary supporters things like "fools, third way still_one Aug 2015 #79
Oh, please. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #83
I am not talking about a group. A group is a specialized area where they set their own rules. I am still_one Aug 2015 #103
Of course you're not. Funny how the condemnation is only for Bernie's supporters. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #112
I did NOT participate in the mocking of any candidate's supporters running in the Democratic primary still_one Aug 2015 #240
All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that both sides are at fault. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #242
You are right. Good point, thanks still_one Aug 2015 #250
You should not be excluding specialized groups, passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #195
Partisanship, as far as I am concerned is expected in those groups. Issues may not always be the still_one Aug 2015 #203
I also included supporting each other passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #207
This message was self-deleted by its author still_one Aug 2015 #219
I agree, however, special groups are governed by their own set of rules, and even though they are still_one Aug 2015 #248
Well don't wait for it to happen. zeemike Aug 2015 #141
Exactly. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #148
Yes. Puglover Aug 2015 #358
I'll tell you, the vitriol I've seen here has made me change my second choice... Adrahil Aug 2015 #360
Plan B 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #2
Rally the troops, that is what they want :))) n/t slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #4
Obvious concerned poster is obvious. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #12
Actually I'm not "pretending" that some people seem to match behaviors in the blog nt Sheepshank Aug 2015 #44
Since we're "matching" behaviours, how do you feel about linking to Stormfront on DU? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #63
I do not know what stormfront is? Sheepshank Aug 2015 #70
It's a white supremacist hate group. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #74
So why link to it? Sheepshank Aug 2015 #96
Who cares? You don't link to anti-semitic hate groups when discussing a Jewish candidate. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #105
I haven't forgiven anyone, how could I? Nt Sheepshank Aug 2015 #147
What exactly is your point with this? Are you implying that Sheepshank goes to Stormfront? Hekate Aug 2015 #106
Because we're discussing disturbing behaviour by supporters on both sides. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #109
I think the op is saying the same thing... JaneyVee Aug 2015 #45
"The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters" <- NO, I'm not saying this 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #72
It is not expressing views against Hillary that is the problem. It is calling Hillary and her still_one Aug 2015 #85
Show me 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #115
Here is one link, and the path followed. Keep in mind I realize this kind of stuff happens on still_one Aug 2015 #175
If Fox is "terrified" of Sanders, why do they invite him on like they do? 7962 Aug 2015 #192
I am not arguing the OP, and in fact agree with your point, Hillary should be more aggressive still_one Aug 2015 #208
You know what it is .... 7962 Aug 2015 #339
You made a point, someone politely agreed with you Sheepshank Aug 2015 #386
I was merely adding to the poster's comment. I agree with it. nt 7962 Aug 2015 #391
I love how the advice to not "attack" Clinton or her supporters greatly helps Clinton's path to the Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #92
I totally agree, provided 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #120
Agreed. That's what I do. That's why when they call issues oriented criticism an unfair attack, Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #124
Attacks on the candidates are fine, not on the supporters. still_one Aug 2015 #211
Thanks so much for encouraginging his supporters to work even harder, this was needed ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #3
His supporters are anti Obama. Thats why they will NEVER win over black people or the Obama bravenak Aug 2015 #5
Not really. mmonk Aug 2015 #32
I'm a fast reader. I read the posts.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #71
I don't like Democratic candidates, Bravenak, who govern far more to the right than they campaigned villager Aug 2015 #34
I don't think you get it. The why you bash Obama doesn't matter. Many POC identify with him. stevenleser Aug 2015 #37
I'll let someone from the group you presume to speak for reply to me, thanks! villager Aug 2015 #42
As Bravenak will tell you, I am a POC, but thanks for trying to dismiss me. nt stevenleser Aug 2015 #49
Then I apologize to you, and I'm sorry. villager Aug 2015 #56
As a brown Poc artislife Aug 2015 #101
But the thing is, the vast majority of the bashing was unadulterated bullshit. It really was Number23 Aug 2015 #127
Wow..powerful and real Sheepshank Aug 2015 #160
Bernie was wailing, too.. he wanted to Primary President Obama in 2012.. said "millions were Cha Aug 2015 #256
You guys are messing up. bravenak Aug 2015 #51
You are making criticism of some policy decisions more than it is. mmonk Aug 2015 #59
No I'm not. Not to me. It's very important to me. bravenak Aug 2015 #64
What is anti-Obama rhetoric? Being against the TPP? Arne Duncan and Public Schools? Drones? mmonk Aug 2015 #221
You must have folks on ignore.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #277
So I suppose if the GOP nominates Dr. Ben Carson, we cant criticize his policies either? Armstead Aug 2015 #65
We disowned Carson. We don't vote Republican. We're Black.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #69
so ALL the Black people you know say ALL the White people that support Bernie hate Obama ? azurnoir Aug 2015 #47
Most of us who vote are paying close attention since netroots. bravenak Aug 2015 #58
ya in 2011 he said Obama should primary because it looked like he was cutting Social Security azurnoir Aug 2015 #66
He cut nothing. Glad I found that out thanks to TarheelDem. bravenak Aug 2015 #68
no in the end he did not, but at a point in in time it looked like he might well make those cuts azurnoir Aug 2015 #82
It was a mistake to call for a primary if he was going to run for President. It will be brought up.n bravenak Aug 2015 #86
Perhaps or perhaps it had influence but if that is the tac that will be taken azurnoir Aug 2015 #110
That among other things. I'll wait for the general. bravenak Aug 2015 #121
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #458
Jesus Christ. bravenak Aug 2015 #460
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #461
Understandable.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #462
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #463
Good. I am glad.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #464
He proactively proposed it that is indisputable and so it required push back. TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #456
Try to read this: bravenak Aug 2015 #457
I didn't have to "try" and it isn't an answer to my post at all TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #465
I am very happy that Obama is your hero sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #117
I'm voting for the winner of the primary. bravenak Aug 2015 #123
Amen, sistah! Thank you! yeah, Bernie wanted to Primary President Obama.. not too smart. Cha Aug 2015 #94
Some folks do not understand LOYALTY. bravenak Aug 2015 #100
Oh yeah.. "..disappointed..blah blah blah".. sound familiar? Cha Aug 2015 #116
Yep. They destroyed this nation. bravenak Aug 2015 #128
they actually have acted like that. BS said Milions were ".. disappointed.." .. well, Millions Cha Aug 2015 #138
I'm certainly not dissappointed. bravenak Aug 2015 #146
He's mine, too... out here on the Hawaiian Islands where he was born. Cha Aug 2015 #156
The only people I'm disappointed in Jamaal510 Aug 2015 #253
Me too. They did all they could to stop progress.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #269
Kick and Rec your post. sheshe2 Aug 2015 #136
I have been reading each and every post from his supporters. bravenak Aug 2015 #143
Do you really want people to look at the color of a person's skin? slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #222
Seriously? We wouldn't vote for Carson. He is a republican. bravenak Aug 2015 #279
Sigh.. "..the color of skin".. I would wager it's more than skin deep with President Obama. They Cha Aug 2015 #247
Or Herman Cain. Who I thought was hella funny. He made me laugh so hard. bravenak Aug 2015 #298
Skin color should not enter one's thoughts when deciding to vote for a nominee ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #186
Sigh BainsBane Aug 2015 #191
The post I responded to copied below ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #220
Black people don't have the luxury of pretending life isn't about race BainsBane Aug 2015 #249
Your post is BS and you seek to divide ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #260
The division exists BainsBane Aug 2015 #267
So well said BB! mcar Aug 2015 #371
From the first sentence on, your post is a home run. EOM. n/t freshwest Aug 2015 #416
Yup. Agschmid Aug 2015 #226
Pretty much. Yes. MineralMan Aug 2015 #443
Only what we are seeing on DU BainsBane Aug 2015 #446
Yes, but still not that influential. MineralMan Aug 2015 #447
Lol! Yeah, tell a black person skin color don't matter. That's helpful. bravenak Aug 2015 #275
I've shut Obama haters IRL out of my life. If they can't see past *whatever* they've got a problem freshwest Aug 2015 #224
I agree. That you for this post. bravenak Aug 2015 #281
Holy hell. I am really surprised you pulled the hater card. I am also surprised that you played Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #229
That will get your candidate exactly zero black votes. Congratulations. bravenak Aug 2015 #273
Surprised that you did not address not one single point. You went immediately for emotion. Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #287
I told you how to win. You refuse to realize that most people have emotions. bravenak Aug 2015 #291
Yet. Somehow, you were cool with Bernie two weeks ago. I am totally on board for being nice Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #305
I'm still 100% cool with Bernie and 100% behind the policies he discusses. bravenak Aug 2015 #313
Okay.She will sing for Jesus. How will a Jew ever have a chance with the black and hispanic Luminous Animal Aug 2015 #322
Black people love jews because Jesus was a jew. Don't even try that. bravenak Aug 2015 #325
Nobody's playing card games. MineralMan Aug 2015 #445
sorry but Obama's going to get richly deserved criticism ibegurpard Aug 2015 #243
I criticize policy BainsBane Aug 2015 #255
"Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and Cha Aug 2015 #303
Realize that you are harming your candidate and don't talk about us like that. bravenak Aug 2015 #283
Being critical of Obama is not hate. blackspade Aug 2015 #346
Please read this post I wrote at this link. bravenak Aug 2015 #356
Just finished. blackspade Aug 2015 #390
Awesome. Thank you, that makes me happy.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #393
It's easy to understand the attacks on Hillary: Ron Green Aug 2015 #6
I agree..... BooScout Aug 2015 #7
Hillary supporters have always thought first about the party artislife Aug 2015 #8
You'd think the racist dog whistles used by the Clintons in 2008 would keep their supporters humble. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #14
We don't hate her supporters artislife Aug 2015 #16
I'm not a fan of the ones who swift boat Bernie on DU. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #22
No I am not a fan, either artislife Aug 2015 #26
Your prior responses to me haven't had anything to do with policy Sheepshank Aug 2015 #24
You don't discuss policy artislife Aug 2015 #28
Sometimes artislife Aug 2015 #30
WTF. Agschmid Aug 2015 #111
Had to illustrate what the OP was talkin' about. Cha Aug 2015 #306
You may want to consider deleting this one post Sheepshank Aug 2015 #282
Why? It's common knowledge on DU and elsewhere. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #285
You talk about dog whistles and then talk about flinging shit Sheepshank Aug 2015 #286
You think AA's don't know about Hillary's 2008 campaign? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #289
This is not about 2008. It's about your insensitive comment Sheepshank Aug 2015 #290
I said HC supporters were flinging feces, last I checked most of them were white. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #292
On the heels of several heartfelt posts by Hillary supporters that are POC Sheepshank Aug 2015 #293
That analogy is used here all the time. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #296
It's all about context...... Sheepshank Aug 2015 #297
Nope, it's all about the hypocrisy, race and religion have nothing to do with it. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #300
Bull Sheepshank Aug 2015 #308
Like I said, I know I have to live with myself after the primaries. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #309
Most people can live with themselves just fine Sheepshank Aug 2015 #315
This from someone who posted an op calling Bernie supporters "assholes"? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #318
I assume you are referring to the blog....I've never said such a thing Sheepshank Aug 2015 #323
You realize some of these folks have some mental stability/illness issues right? Agschmid Aug 2015 #55
The people that the OP artislife Aug 2015 #61
"Do you want me to find the craziest Bernie supporters and say that they represent ALL of Bernie's" beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #67
The OP which said things like this... Agschmid Aug 2015 #93
No, the one who called his supporters "assholes". Or did you miss that on purpose? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #97
A rediculous RW trashy attempt a "gotcha" video was posted... Agschmid Aug 2015 #102
No, you don't. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #118
. Agschmid Aug 2015 #125
. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #129
Such a great level of progressive discourse we were able to maintain eh? Agschmid Aug 2015 #135
You expected something else in this thread? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #137
I don't look for it on DU anymore. Agschmid Aug 2015 #139
Some places are still peaceful. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #142
This message was self-deleted by its author Sheepshank Aug 2015 #9
Let it go. artislife Aug 2015 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author FlatBaroque Aug 2015 #18
It's simple. Their ability to come up with a strategy is extremely limited. stevenleser Aug 2015 #46
It often appears to be quite that simple nt Sheepshank Aug 2015 #60
Yup. Agschmid Aug 2015 #107
Where does Hillary stand on the TPP and the XL pipeline? Enthusiast Aug 2015 #176
This is a case in point. Promoting Bernie shouldn't be about comparing him to Hillary at all. nt stevenleser Aug 2015 #381
It should be about comparing the policies of one vs the policies of the other. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #396
Well, thank you so very much. sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #10
No one is talking about 100% Sheepshank Aug 2015 #21
Then let me tell you something about sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #43
"The GOP is our target. The GOP is our target." progressoid Aug 2015 #13
Makes perfect sense 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #81
I will vote for the Dem nominee, whoever he/she is Frances Aug 2015 #19
That's the spirit. Do it for the good of the party. You don't have to like us, but we appreciate Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #122
If Clinton should win the primary neverforget Aug 2015 #304
Don't overinflate your ego. Most voters never heard of DU Larkspur Aug 2015 #20
A point of clarification....I absolutely realize your statement to be true. Sheepshank Aug 2015 #54
Oh it's not just that blog.. The Obama Diary which has over 30 million hits since Oct '09 has Cha Aug 2015 #80
This is not the only place outside the DU bubble where it's noticeable. calimary Aug 2015 #119
Thank for posting that. It's a very good read. Number23 Aug 2015 #140
Even better than the op. Well said and great examples Sheepshank Aug 2015 #180
Still that blog is not read by most voters Larkspur Aug 2015 #418
Google Milt Shook Hillary Clinton tells ya everything ya need to know azurnoir Aug 2015 #23
Yeah, ask black people their experience with Bernie supporters after #Blacklivesmatter you cant stevenleser Aug 2015 #62
Did BLM choose Bernie because as a former FLOTUS Hillary is surrounded by secret service? azurnoir Aug 2015 #78
Sure, keep dismissing the concerns of POC here. nt stevenleser Aug 2015 #95
I'm not dismissing anything, pointing out facts is not the same as dismissal azurnoir Aug 2015 #104
Dude, that was last week's smear. Get with the times. Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #133
+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #178
I guess, then, this would be this week's "smear" frazzled Aug 2015 #215
Please, ask us. I have stories. Tell them to everyone I meet.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #88
Good description of the Hillary posters on this site, alas villager Aug 2015 #29
"Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are Cha Aug 2015 #35
Speaking about self righteous..., didn't you rec these threads, Cha:? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #90
He lost me at "unicorn" Armstead Aug 2015 #38
Ah, the desperation of the Hillary camp... TheProgressive Aug 2015 #40
Right on! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #187
The shaky Supreme Court situation presents a sobering soul search oasis Aug 2015 #41
Not so at all, if you believe that sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #52
+100%! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #188
Bernie Sanders supporters do not hold a monopoly ibegurpard Aug 2015 #57
As an obnoxkious Bernie Sanders supporter, I thank you Armstead Aug 2015 #73
ACTUAL SECRET VIDEO of Bernie's campaign setting volunteer recruiting goals MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #75
I was hoping JackInGreen Aug 2015 #89
Actually you have it ass backwards. TM99 Aug 2015 #76
You're the one who said you were too pure to vote for Clinton in 1992 R B Garr Aug 2015 #132
Bullshit! TM99 Aug 2015 #225
Bullshit is right. R B Garr Aug 2015 #251
This is the typical line of bullshit TM99 Aug 2015 #257
"After decades" -- yes, that's my point -- after decades there are R B Garr Aug 2015 #377
You are willfully ignorant on this. TM99 Aug 2015 #388
NO, you are engaging in revisionist history to suit your PUB mentality now. R B Garr Aug 2015 #398
It is only revisionistic in your deluded fantasies. TM99 Aug 2015 #403
"those capable of research" - that's my point. What you describe is research. R B Garr Aug 2015 #406
Dude, what the fuck? TM99 Aug 2015 #408
Back to the name calling, I see. You guys really crack me up, too. R B Garr Aug 2015 #410
I am done with you. TM99 Aug 2015 #428
Yeah, well, you name call Dems here and insult the Clintons non-stop, R B Garr Aug 2015 #429
exactly. Gloria Aug 2015 #91
I thought it was just on DU too until I saw the #berniesoblack tag and read the reports from black Number23 Aug 2015 #98
yeah, I wonder if Bernie has any clue what some of his supporters on the net are doing Cha Aug 2015 #108
After I saw a poster in this forum say that electing Bernie Sanders was the only way to eradicate Number23 Aug 2015 #150
Gone baby gone. I saw that link.. it's posted in Hillary's Group, too.. Cha Aug 2015 #167
There are some/few Sanders supporters that I really like here. sheshe2 Aug 2015 #173
Everyone is welcome in the AA forum -- unless they're psychotic. Number23 Aug 2015 #198
"Everyone is welcome in the AA forum -- unless they're psychotic." sheshe2 Aug 2015 #235
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous post I've ever seen. truebrit71 Aug 2015 #199
Lol **PRIME EXAMPLE OF EVERYTHING THE ENTIRE INTERNET HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT RIGHT HERE** Number23 Aug 2015 #204
+1 bravenak Aug 2015 #284
Exactly Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #326
"unsafe" "terrified" Nnnnnnope, no hyperbole here... cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #210
You need to take it up with the black female PROGRESSIVE who attended Netroots and couldn't wait Number23 Aug 2015 #217
"Sanders supporters are unhinged loons secretly working to make their candidate lose." Seriously? cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #230
No one said anything about violence. That's you projecting some serious something right there Number23 Aug 2015 #233
You post things like "they felt absolutely UNSAFE around Sanders unhinged supporters" and cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #237
The BLACK WOMAN at Netroots Nation said she felt unsafe. Those were HER WORDS brought on SOLELY Number23 Aug 2015 #241
I'm not wailing or screaming. Howling? You fucking bet. Howling with laughter. cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #244
My pleasure. I do the same thing every time I see the latest polls on the Dem rankings Number23 Aug 2015 #246
Thanks for the link, Number23. I can't believe she was cornered and manhandled lunamagica Aug 2015 #278
And what's even more telling is that her feeling unsafe around alleged "liberals" is cause for Number23 Aug 2015 #299
I don't understand...it's just mind-boggling. What is funny, not just funny, but hilarious about lunamagica Aug 2015 #337
This is a pretty ridiculous attack on Sanders supporters right here jfern Aug 2015 #270
If by "attack" you mean a view of the abusive tactics of many Sanders supporters which is shared Number23 Aug 2015 #295
LOL, you don't even try to present evidence jfern Aug 2015 #310
You ARE evidence.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #314
BINGO. Number23 Aug 2015 #319
They all up in here.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #320
LOL. You guys are going to have to try harder than this. jfern Aug 2015 #328
No we don't. No need to even try. You do all the work.nt bravenak Aug 2015 #332
We get it, you don't like Sanders supporters jfern Aug 2015 #333
I like most of them just fine. Most of them are awesome. bravenak Aug 2015 #334
OK, I'll be nice. jfern Aug 2015 #335
Thank you. bravenak Aug 2015 #336
The OP is evidence. There have been at least four other articles posted WITHIN this OP that are Number23 Aug 2015 #317
Well, it was't in your post jfern Aug 2015 #327
You need to read the thread and the site. Maybe then you could educate yourself and stop labeling Number23 Aug 2015 #433
Absolutely this Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #432
Project much? Vincardog Aug 2015 #99
I like this part of his article. Snotcicles Aug 2015 #113
The continued smell of desperation. SoapBox Aug 2015 #114
I can assure you, I'm not desperate Sheepshank Aug 2015 #205
Bernie will speaking in Portland at the Coliseum for almost nothing. jalan48 Aug 2015 #126
Ermagherd she is FUNDRAISING! Agschmid Aug 2015 #131
Money is speech. Right CU? Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #144
Enraged that Citizens United has turned this country into an oligarchy, and that jalan48 Aug 2015 #151
Citizens United didn't do it, sure it's a cause but not the root cause. Agschmid Aug 2015 #152
So do you care what has happened to our Democracy? jalan48 Aug 2015 #155
Sure I care what happens to our democracy, but we don't agree on where we are in the process. Agschmid Aug 2015 #158
Where are you in the process? jalan48 Aug 2015 #159
+1 840high Aug 2015 #153
That's unfortunate because he needs to be fundraising if he's going to beat the Rethugs, pnwmom Aug 2015 #157
I guess if the Hillaristas can't find anything else to bash Bernie with, Cleita Aug 2015 #145
That's pretty much all they've been doing here on DU villager Aug 2015 #154
Then you haven't been paying attention. Many have criticized his positions on gun control. pnwmom Aug 2015 #161
There has been criticism of his gun control positions. villager Aug 2015 #172
Thank you. I don't blame him for his previous positions on gun control. I just hope he reconsiders pnwmom Aug 2015 #238
Hillary 2008 and guns artislife Aug 2015 #252
When it came time to vote on the PLCAA, Hillary voted against it and Bernie voted for it. pnwmom Aug 2015 #258
Now they are. artislife Aug 2015 #262
I am committed to no one at this point, but I think her campaign is better organized and funded. pnwmom Aug 2015 #271
He's got an F rating from the NRA jfern Aug 2015 #276
They've turned against him for some reason. But he was with them on some critical votes. pnwmom Aug 2015 #288
Bernie rebuts his own platform... Agschmid Aug 2015 #162
Link? villager Aug 2015 #171
Here... Agschmid Aug 2015 #174
So that's what you have -- he pays his interns $10 an hour villager Aug 2015 #177
No link. Agschmid Aug 2015 #183
But your candidate doesn't even pay her interns -- and the article mentions the health benefits are villager Aug 2015 #189
I support Bernie. Agschmid Aug 2015 #190
Then why post something that doesn't really show him contradicting his position? villager Aug 2015 #194
Because it clearly does contradict his postion and I find that frustrating. Agschmid Aug 2015 #197
I disagree, since she isn't paying interns villager Aug 2015 #206
So your reasoning is... Agschmid Aug 2015 #218
Kicking your post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sheshe2 Aug 2015 #245
Oh cut the bullshit. TM99 Aug 2015 #264
Nope, it's an unprincipled stance. Is the reason for a $15/hr wage applicable now or not? n/t seaglass Aug 2015 #340
It is a principled AND rational stance. TM99 Aug 2015 #342
Why don't you direct me to where Bernie has said that $10/hr is a living wage now? n/t seaglass Aug 2015 #345
Why don't you read what I said and educate yourself? n/t TM99 Aug 2015 #348
You are attempting to deflect. If Bernie had a principled stance he would be paying his staff a seaglass Aug 2015 #349
It is not deflection to describe the actual economic realities of a wage increase. TM99 Aug 2015 #351
It is a deflection because we are talking about something Bernie could do to demonstrate his seaglass Aug 2015 #355
No it is not. This is not a flaw. TM99 Aug 2015 #366
Is $10.10 a living wage? Agschmid Aug 2015 #347
Question our politicians is fine. TM99 Aug 2015 #350
I don't support the other candidates! Agschmid Aug 2015 #357
No candidate is perfect. TM99 Aug 2015 #362
This is an incredibly important issue and as far as I can tell... Agschmid Aug 2015 #365
He is doing better. TM99 Aug 2015 #367
No I mean better than $10.10... Agschmid Aug 2015 #369
You are asking the wrong question. TM99 Aug 2015 #392
No shit. Puglover Aug 2015 #370
You mean when I say "I support Sanders but expect more" Agschmid Aug 2015 #401
I am not being snarky honestly. Puglover Aug 2015 #404
So because people tell me I don't support Sanders... Agschmid Aug 2015 #411
Let me guess your filling out the application? Agschmid Aug 2015 #236
much less an actual certifiable Sanders supporter who can be identified 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #164
I"m a Bernie supporter all the way kacekwl Aug 2015 #166
Who are these "self righteous assholes" you're talking about? MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #179
I think the Hillary supporters are calling the kettle black. They are projecting. jalan48 Aug 2015 #185
I must have missed when the HRC supports called Black Lives Matter a Koch conspiracy BainsBane Aug 2015 #193
I'm sure there are people saying all kinds of things, on both sides. jalan48 Aug 2015 #202
I believe it specifies not all but rather a significant presence BainsBane Aug 2015 #214
Well, I don't buy it personally. jalan48 Aug 2015 #223
They weren't Hillary supporters but BS supporters who were so upset #BlackLivesMatter dared Cha Aug 2015 #259
and O'Malley was subject to the same protest BainsBane Aug 2015 #263
Exactly, Martin O'Malley Supporters showed Class.. Too many BS supporters got ugly.. Cha Aug 2015 #266
I'm not sure who populates the site, Cha, after just visiting there... MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #402
I haven't called anyone anything Sheepshank Aug 2015 #234
Nope, not buying it. blackspade Aug 2015 #181
Yeah, I can folks are moving forward anyway BainsBane Aug 2015 #200
Who has thrown away the African American vote? blackspade Aug 2015 #352
Thing one. SusanCalvin Aug 2015 #182
Shooks knows damn well that "scream" was manufactured by Corporate Media. WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #316
This post will not achieve hundreds of recommendations. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #196
No post that doesn't exalt Sanders and his supporters BainsBane Aug 2015 #212
And yet you waste a lot of time here ibegurpard Aug 2015 #232
lol Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #341
banned from bernie thread captainarizona Aug 2015 #213
DemoCRAT voters? ibegurpard Aug 2015 #228
No you weren't. WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #301
Yeah right. You don't have to make stuff up to kick it. They don't do that there. bravenak Aug 2015 #302
Progressive Unicorn Brigade? wow. m-lekktor Aug 2015 #216
Milt Shook is an asshat TM99 Aug 2015 #265
Thanks! m-lekktor Aug 2015 #268
Oh, he is known alright, just not TM99 Aug 2015 #272
"Look! It’s A Bird! It’s A Plane! Oh wait… It’s Just Milt Shook" WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #324
"Milt Shook was caught lying many times during his usenet days." WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #311
"he may be related to or affiliated with that immasmartypants chick, Nancy LeTourneau" beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #330
I've been called a lot of things, Progressive Unicorn Battalion is pretty good. Scruffy1 Aug 2015 #227
Two hundred people going back and forth on DU is going to STOP Bernie Sanders? cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #239
Nope...I ascribed to the idea that the Bernie supporters on DU are not the only ones.... Sheepshank Aug 2015 #274
One thing that might stop Hillary artislife Aug 2015 #280
"Progressive Unity Brigade" "self righteous assholes" neverforget Aug 2015 #312
they're focused only on personality: therefore they can only believe that people only support MisterP Aug 2015 #414
PUMAs cost Hillary the 2008 primary? Seriously? WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #321
"Milt Shook Is A Documented Moron" beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #329
Judging by the 40 recs, I'd say DU agrees. WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #419
Uh whatever Flying Squirrel Aug 2015 #331
short bus political rhetoric reddread Aug 2015 #338
Seriously Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #343
Anyone who votes for a candidate... MellowDem Aug 2015 #344
If you have the time, reading some of the posts upthread Sheepshank Aug 2015 #407
The GOP is our target but you're attacking Bernie supporters? CanadaexPat Aug 2015 #353
There is so much wrong with this missive Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #363
The hypocrisy here is strong. LWolf Aug 2015 #364
I disagree with some things here, but the main one is.." ion_theory Aug 2015 #374
If you aren't thinking about beating the Republicans.... Adrahil Aug 2015 #405
This is true... ion_theory Aug 2015 #448
plus that argument makes sense only with candidates whose rhetoric attracts listeners MisterP Aug 2015 #415
Plus his "small crowd strategy" basically means ACTUAL AMERICANS, and not there donors interests. ion_theory Aug 2015 #449
it's a joke from a while back: someone said Clinton's small crowds were a tactical choice by her MisterP Aug 2015 #451
"All Democrats are on the same team." Total bullshit... polichick Aug 2015 #412
the reasons Hillary wouldn't win are a lot shorter: MisterP Aug 2015 #417
A Sanders supporter told me that I was a bad parent for being the father of two daughters Gothmog Aug 2015 #421
If you swapped the names in your post, Vinca Aug 2015 #430
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Aug 2015 #431
you live in a small world on DU Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #438
It would appear you posted without reading the blog all the way through or the thread Sheepshank Aug 2015 #439
Kick & Recommended. William769 Aug 2015 #444
Yeah.....these people artislife Aug 2015 #450
Projection AgingAmerican Aug 2015 #452

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
1. I've tried to explain this ...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:33 PM
Aug 2015

... for Bernie to win the primary, he has to convert LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of people who would HAPPILY vote for Hillary.

Attacking Hillary, and attacking her supporters, will not convert those people.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
15. I'm one of those ...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:55 PM
Aug 2015

... who would happily vote for any of our candidates.

Back in 2008, I was ready to vote Hillary in the primary, ready to vote Obama too ... went Obama (I'm in NC) in the primary.

But I'd have backed Hillary just as enthusiastically in the GE if she won.

Same now.

I will be voting and pushing for "our" candidate. Period.

My issue #1, not letting the GOP take the WH like we did in 2000. That was a fucking disaster.

We can't do anything if they win the WH.

I'm not sure Bernie can win the GE. Its a reasonable concern. If he wins the primary (and he has time to flip me), I'll support him just as I would have supported Clinton ... just as I did Obama.


 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
33. Reasonable
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:11 PM
Aug 2015

And agian, I appreciate the comment that seems so much more reasonable than down thread.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
165. What do you mean if he has time to flip you?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:34 PM
Aug 2015
If he wins the primary (and he has time to flip me), I'll support him just as I would have supported Clinton


It sounds like you still think that you might not vote for him in the GE if he wins. What does he have to do to flip you?
 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
254. Given the paranthetical aside is next to the primary
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:21 AM
Aug 2015

I'm pretty sure the poster means they are undecided which candidate to support in the primary. Especially since they go on to say that they would support either Hillary or Sanders if they win the primary.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
261. You are probably right, but it can be read either way
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:46 AM
Aug 2015

I just keep seeing all these Hillary supporters saying they are so upset with Bernie supporters they no longer think they can vote for Bernie if he wins the primary. And they were harping on us because too many Bernie supporters were saying they would "NEVER" support Hillary, they would rather not vote at all. I think it's wrong for either side to say that, or even to try to use is as leverage or a threat. We all need to be grownups and vote for the dem candidate who wins the primary. It's just too damned important to keep the republicans out.

I didn't think that is what Joe was saying, but it did hit me strangely. Now that I read it your way, it makes more sense.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
184. Remember the band valiantly playing as the Titanic sank?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:00 AM
Aug 2015

Yes, I play tuba, but I'll do anything to keep from being on THAT deck in THAT scenario. The money roster - the manifest of First Class - my name isn't gonna be there. I'm tired of travelling "steerage" and being told how fortunate I am to be there.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
25. Bernie has not attacked Hillary.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:04 PM
Aug 2015

And all he has to do to win is convert the people that just say they support her because they don't know what else to tell the pollster on the other end of their land line.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
31. No, its some of his supporters who are attacking her ...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:08 PM
Aug 2015

... and they not only attack her, they attack her supporters.

The problem you have is that you NEED to convert her supporters. Lots and lots of them.

Its is that simple.

And if you think calling them 3rd way, DINOs, etc ... and that will get them to switch, then stick with that.

I do not think that will work.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
39. The same thing goes on from the other side.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:14 PM
Aug 2015

If people want a more progressive candidate then they will switch. If they are going to support Hillary just because she is Hillary then they won't switch.


JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
53. That's not what I said.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:21 PM
Aug 2015

YOu need to convince Hillary supporters that Bernie would win ... see, Hillary supporters already believe that she will beat ANY GOP opponent.

And you trying to make it seem she won't beat them, does nothing to make people think Bernie would.

 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
201. The polls already show that Bernie can beat Republicans
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:16 AM
Aug 2015

That's why he's traveling to states other than Iowa, NH and SC and drawing big crowds. He's proving that he and his ideas have support around the nation. You don't see Hillary drawing large crowds, like Bernie is.

Bernie's UNPAID supporters will not win or lose the primary or general election for Bernie. Bernie and his campaign will.
Ditto for Hillary.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
409. Which polls have shown that Bernie can beat the republicans? ...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:33 PM
Aug 2015

I have only seen a single poll that has Bernie beating a single republican ... Trump.

 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
422. There as a poll that showed in swing states Bernie was either beating or close to beating
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:02 PM
Aug 2015

3 Republicans.

This poll showed that Bernie actually had a better chance at winning the general election than the primary.

So the meme that Bernie can't win the general election is false, which is what some of Hillary's spokespeople, like Sen. McCaskill, are trying to peddle.

The current meme is that Bernie can't win AA or Latino voters over to his cause because he can't equate economic justice with racial justice. This new meme serves Wall Street, who don't want the general public choosing someone who would have no problems putting the banksters in jail.

Whether Hillary or a Republican wins in Nov 2016, Wall Street wins and Main Street loses. It doesn't matter how many AA and Latino voters choose Hillary, their needs will be 2nd fiddle to the whims of her benefactors from Wall Street.

Gothmog

(143,630 posts)
423. It is not an attack to question whether Sanders is viable in the general election
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:03 PM
Aug 2015

Some candidates are better able to raise the funds necessary to complete. President Obama blew everyone away in 2008 with his small donor fundraising efforts and that made it clear that he was electable. Jeb is trying to do the same on the GOP side with his $100 million super pac.

There are many on this board who doubt that Sanders will be able to compete in a general election contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate will likely spend another billion. This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine

Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig, who founded a Super Pac to end Super Pacs, said Sanders’ renouncing Super Pacs is tantamount to “bringing a knife to a gunfight”.

“I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that he’s going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances – and he’s an enormously important progressive voice,” Lessig said.

President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac, The super pacs associated with Clinton raised $24 million and so Clinton raised $70 this quarter.
 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
50. What is the difference between criticizing a candidate and "attacking"
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:18 PM
Aug 2015

And do not 80 percent of candidates and their supporters not do the same thing?

Why are Sanders supporter "special" and so different than the heated rhetoric that goes on in most political races -- especially those where peopel believe the stakes are very high?

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
130. One reason there truly is a difference.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:07 PM
Aug 2015

Sanders would not win the primary if it were held today. His goal is to win in the not so distant future. Than means he needs to fully close the gap going into Iowa and New Hampshire. Many Biden supporters being polled will go to Hillary. They are both more establishment. That means people currently seeing Clinton as their first choice are going to have to be swayed by primary time.

The same does not hold true for Hillary although her supporters would benefit from the same advise. I think her negatives are mainly being driven by ongoing media stories.

 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
209. Sanders supporters are being slimed, just like Howard Dean's supporters were in 2003-2004
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 AM
Aug 2015

Sanders is a threat to the Dem Establishment or Wall Street Dems, like Hillary. They see the crowds Sanders is drawing and know that their Turd Way b.s. is unpopular. Whether Hillary wins or a Republican in 2016, Wall Street wins and that is all they care about. Oh, yeah a few care about women's' reproductive rights, gay rights, and the environment but mainly the Dem Establishment only cares about their benefactors on Wall Street.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
375. That's not defenable, and you damn well know it
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:38 AM
Aug 2015

I've seen pretty bad terms used against Sanders and against his suppoters too.

But it is not, er, appropriate to take the worst examples of behavior and use that to characterize everyone who supports particular candidates or holds particular positions.

That's just bogus strawmanning.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
376. It was defended.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:46 AM
Aug 2015

It actually happened.

The post was not hidden. A jury let it stand.

And then plenty of Bernie's supporters defended it.

And hey ... you can call Hillary supporters "shills", "RINOs", and anything else you want. Put it in your OP title and maybe make it to the Greatest page.

You can repeat RW attacks too. That's a thing now.

Here's the reality.

To win the primary, Bernie will need lots and lots of converts from Hilliary's supporters. His supporters who attack Hillary with baseless nonsense, and attack her supporters, are not helping him.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
380. If someone bases their support or opposition to a candidate based on....
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:59 AM
Aug 2015

think that certain posters on DU (or supporters in the real world) a jerks, then their reasoning is very shallow.

PLUS the fact that supporters of candidates tend to become pale flowers when it comes to how their candidates (or themselves) are portrayed.

My hackles get raised by some of the language aimed at Sanders and his supporters. I'll admit it.

But I try (emphasize try) to be intellectully honest about it. I wonlt defend calling Hillary sexist names, or excessively derogatory otherwise.

It;s always a difficult line when the stakes are perceived as high. I get strong in my language about the system which sometimes could be perceived as "negative attacks."

But it works that way on all sides. No "side" is immune, and both "sides" are guilty of occasional excesses.

One more point -- The flame throwing posts alays tend to attract more attention than the more reasoned ones. That's human nature/

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
385. You are not listening.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:08 AM
Aug 2015

I did not say that people who ALREADY support Hillary do so based on what others (like on DU) have said about her.

They ALREADY support her. They all ALREADY know who she is, and would be perfectly happy voting for her. Right now.

And so, what has to happen, is you have to convert them.

And if your approach is to bash Hillary, or people who support her. They will stop listening to you. They will tune you, and Bernie, out.

And you keep making reference to "both sides".

Hillary supporters say they will vote for Hillary or Bernie, which ever one wins the primary. Yet there are many here who say they support Bernie, and are quite adamant that they will never vote for Hillary.

Which of those "sides" do you think is more likely to attack the other?

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
87. I think you mean: some of Bernie's (alleged) 'supporters'
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:44 PM
Aug 2015

there's a big difference, since you're so concerned about accuracy and fairness.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
231. It's a matter of perspective.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:41 AM
Aug 2015

as a Sanders supporter, I view the discussion of the flaws and weaknesses in Hillary's campaign such as her closeness to the big banks, her fundraising for a good but private foundation from donors who may or may not be seeking favors and then running for an office in which she could grant favors, her refusal to answer a direct opinion on the XL pipeline, her husband's record -- from the signing of NAFTA to the repeal of Glass-Steagall to the signing of the Telecommunications Act and so many other policy problems as topics that we need to consider when we pick a candidate,

Now when I point out the many issues on which I disagree with Hillary, her supporters are perplexed, They also for the most part to the extent that they are informed about the issues, support B ernie's views to a greater extent than they support The Clintons' policies and Hillary's campaign strategy.

I think that the attempt to silence Bernie supporters when we voice our problems with Hillary's policies and views on issues of importance or question her judgment on issues from war in Iraq to gay marriage is actually a form of denial on the part of Hillary supporters. Rather than admit that they really trust and agree with Bernie more than with Hillary, the wise and mature and rational thing and become Bernie supporters, They resolve the cognitive dissonance betweenm admitting that they know that the candidate to whose nomination they have emotionally committed themselves is not really the candidate they should vote for, they loudly and frequently accuse Bernie supporters of being mean.

As a Bernie supporter, I am not being mean to anyone when I point out the myriad ways in which my candidate is superior to other candidates.

It is simply a fact that Bernie is the stronger candidate.

Of course it hurts to have to admit as a Hillary supporter that one is wrong and that Bernie is the best candidate. I feel sorry for the author of the OP who is clearly in that denial stage, but facts are facts.

Sorry but your hurt feelings are not the fault of Bernie supporters but of the unwillingness at this point of Hillary supporters to be honest with themselves.

I. May be wrong, but I strongly suspect.that the relative strengths in a Bernie candidacy and the weaknesses in Hillary's will become so painfully evident that the most ardent Hillary supporters will join the Bernie camp.

This desperate attempt to dissuade Bernie supporters from simply telling the truth about the candidates will end as voters become better informed.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
354. I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:28 AM
Aug 2015

I usually find your posts reasonable and even if I do not agree, I can understand your policy differences with her and enjoy your positive support for Bernie. Nobody is perfect, but I do not see you as a negative supporter.

Now, I am Ideologically similar to Bernie as far as my politics go, although I find myself putting a bit more emphasis on the social justice aspect, rather than the economical. I see you as an ally in the fight for Black lives matters and appreciate that and hope that everyone can join us in our fight. You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.

I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary. If I say things about what I think is hurting him with black voters, it is not because I want to trash him or you guys, I want you to know what I see and really am trying to help.

I want Bernie's supporters to include things that are important to black voters and place them at the top of the list of urgent business. I truly believe that the group that wins the support of black activists in movements like Black Lives Matters will win the black vote. And similarly with Latinos, the person and supporters that show the most concern, listen to hispanics in our nation and empathizes and places their concerns at the top along with economic and social justice will win their respect and votes. Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.

Bernie and his group have to spread goodwill throughout the Obama coalition. They need to steal Hillary voters. I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that. We do not like people who do not appreciate him and his accomplishments.

I say these things not to harn; but to assist. When I speak with other African Americans about the policy issues and differences between the candidates, they seem to actually PREFER Bernie's positions. But there is a lack of trust, and we find it difficult to get interested in a new (to us) candidate. We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions. The Clintons are our default choice. The Clintons are praising Obama and that brings them enough goodwill to assuage the fears of another Welfare Reform debacle or Mass Incarceration mess. The Clintons are busy speaking on our issues and apologizing for past mistakes. I know that does not make up for the past, but when has America EVER made up for things done to black people? Never. An apology for hurting us is so damn rare that we forgive.

Now, I think we can get through this netroots debacle, but Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively. Life is a learning experience.

I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.

Another thing is you all need to know that Black people LIKE the Clintons. Yes, they fucked up. But it seems that we are forgiving them and waiting to hear more about how Hillary will undo some of the policies and ensure that we work on the insititutional racism. Many are willing to give them a chance to fix things. It does not help Bernie AT ALL when folks talk crazy to black folks about liking the Clintons after all the damage they have done. It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.

I'd also suggest that his supporters might want to stop saying that economic justice and social justice are the same thing or that one brings the other. And maybe stop calling non Bernie supporters uninformed or implying that they are stupid or Hillary supporters. I get accused of supporting Hillary because I am saying these things to and about Bernie supporters. I understand that I have been a bit unkind by broadbrushing his supporters and I am sorry. I apologize for that and will try to do better. I just do not like my concern dismissed or my community or activists being disrespected or called right wing plants.

There is nothing wrong with being excited for a candidate. Or being an idealist. But it is not a winning strategy on it's own. Votes are needed to win. Bernie has the leftish progressive white liberals on his side and he has their support. He NEEDS more. Compromises will have to be made and tongues will have to be bitten to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the Democratic coalition.

Sorry about the super long post, but I just wanted to get that out there and see if anybody would take what I say seriously and help end this meme with the quickness. I do not like Bernie's supporters having the reputation of being mean, or intelligence snobs or hating black people. The only way to turn the tide is to change course. If you guys could collectively just be nice to black people and listen to us and support us in this fight for our lives and freedom; fight just as hard as you fight FOR Bernie, this problem would be a thing of the past.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
368. I read your words here, Braveank, I always appreciate them because
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:10 AM
Aug 2015

they clarify a lot of feelings I have about certain issues that I don't know how to fully express.

your discussions about Social and Economic justice is one example. IT's not easy as a white woman to realize certain things.

A few years ago, (over a decade now that I think about it) I was dating a black man. At the time I needed to find a new place to live. I was looking to rent a house he came with me to check it out for structural issues, etc.

The prospective land lord kept asking me if I would be moving in alone; (yes) did I have kids? (no) Was I thinking about kids…. It seemed like friendly banter, a conversational thing and I am pretty chatty myself…

at a certain point, my Boyfriend said he had 'checked out the house and would meet me in the car'. I was really kinda confused as to why he was leaving me alone.

When I got back to the car, he told me what he had seen — and what he saw and felt was something I didn't. That landlord was really afraid I would be moving in with a black man.

The other day, Martin O'MAlley gave a speech to the Urban League and he said something that reminded me of that incident so many years ago:

We cannot understand what we do not see.

We cannot improve what we do not measure.

But once we measure, once we see, and once we understand, we can certainly improve.


My relationship with that man (still one of my dearest friends) so many years ago opened my eyes to things so many of my white friends just don't get.

My boyfriend at the time made more money than me, he owned his own house with generous property in upstate NY And he was still treated like crap from a white homeowner offering me the privilege to live in his house for a fee. I was floored. I new what rascism was — kinda, but this was a perfect example of the unseen stuff a lot of white people don't ever see.

I didn't rent that house, I said f*ck it and bought one of my own with another friend of mine. We bought a duplex. He lived upstairs with his partner and I was a happy unmarried woman owning my own home.

I guess what I am saying is that I am seeing more and I appreciate it!

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
382. I know exactly what you mean.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:03 AM
Aug 2015

I have experience that myself, strangely enough they had no problem renting to a black woman alone, but the idea of my husband scared them. And there is always the strange questions and assumptions that I am a single mother and they ask if my kids have the same father. I never get those questions from Black people. Of course my husband is the father of my children! Who else could possibly be the father. Things like that make things just that much harder to deal with.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
395. We are a lily white family...for now
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:21 AM
Aug 2015

My oldest is dating a magnificent person who is black. Kind respectful and yet......he too gets all the sideways glances, the comments that may or may not be interpreted as racist, they innuendos of bigotry. It breaks my heart and like you has given me a little insight into the ongoing different treatment of black people. I have been told that my daughter is now "tainted", the word is out and white boys will no longer want to date her. WTF!!! I can't imagine the burdens of generationally living under such a dark cloud that this boy and so many millions of others have had to do. I simply hate the embedded fear and hate for skin and culture that is different.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
420. It's eye opening, right?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:56 PM
Aug 2015

and I think it is important that we listen when people tell us what they are experiencing and what they see.

Life experience helps and sometimes it is important to look beyond our circle of life and actually go into others.

I hope your daughter and her boyfriend have much happiness and joy!

calimary

(80,521 posts)
435. I read all your words, too, bravenak, and yours as well, Raine1967.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:30 PM
Aug 2015

Both excellent points. Both worth recommending in and of themselves!

I've noted here, myself, as a white woman, Raine, that the main way I can relate, since my family is pretty monochromatic on the lighter side, too, is through being a mom. I just sink myself into the faces and voices of those mothers who've lost their precious children to police brutality, senseless gun violence, or the Stand Your Ground overkill, and ponder how I have the luxury of kissing my son goodbye on his way to a gig and I can feel pretty confident that he will come home on his own two feet and not in a box.

Black moms do not have that sense of security. Why do they not deserve that sense of security too? Why on earth should they be denied that? I could add the trite little comment about how no mother anywhere should be denied that, but CRIMINY, it happens so damn much more often to Black families that it is a genuine, and almost transcending crisis! As a mom, I know how critical it is for me to know my kids are safe. That's as big a bedrock fundamental issue as there is, for a mom. I can only imagine how that fear and dread gnaws at any Black mom, every moment of every day and night that her kids are not, physically, safely within her view.

Perhaps this is why, for many, social justice outweighs economic justice on the scale of importance. Because no job, no matter how good it is or what it pays, can comfort a mother who's had her son or daughter violently and unjustly ripped away from her forever.

So I relate that way, and I've gotta say, it just tears up my guts.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
436. I hope that Bravenak see this.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:49 PM
Aug 2015

We have things to learn. You are a mom, I am not and yet somehow, we can actually take our experiences and identify with Poc as opposed to dismissing them.

Too often I see dismissiveness after posts Bravenak's this and it really makes me sad (and frustrated). Identifying with what other people are feeling (like what you are saying in your post) goes a long way in understanding what they are saying. Understanding what people are saying is the beginning of open and honest communication.







 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
426. Just be nice to Black people ?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:12 PM
Aug 2015

Hi I'm back . Don't send me mail, talk here or I'll block you , isn't that what you do to people who don't agree with you ?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
440. Why do Black voters like Hillary so much?
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 05:58 AM
Aug 2015

What has OBama done to stop the police violence against Black people?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
441. This is a terrible way to approach that question.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:05 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Because they feel like the Clintons are unfairly attacked and we appreciate what Obama does for us. Unlike EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT he doesn't do anything TO US. And we trust him and feel far more comfortable with him than with any other politician in the World dead or Alive. And Hillary's supporters and she herself seems to like him and support his legacy and speaks of building upon that. She does not sell him out like so man other liberals. She has loyalty.

Obama is like a step under Black Jesus, so, attacking us with 'what has he done for you lately?', is not bringing us to the team. We like him. Embracing Obama is the only way to win Obama voters. I'll have you know that many of us only started voting to vote FOR Obama, not for anyone else.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
453. So, basically, a lot of Black voters are happy with Obama and liBer
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:04 PM
Aug 2015

idea that Hillary will probably continue Obama's policies.

Is that what you are saying?

Bernie supporters are coming from the ranks of people who have not made economic or social progress during the Obama administration, people who lost their jobs around 2008 or their homes or have had to accept income cuts or who want to have a bank policy that puts government in charge of the banks as well as ardent opponents to Citizens United who like Bernie because he doesn't take money from the billionaires.

Very interesting. How do we bring these people together?

A friend of mine (a white woman in her 50s) sent me a very pro-Bernie e-mail today. She was a teacher, lost her job, felt she was unfairly treated (she was) and is unable to get back on her feet. A lot of young people graduated from college only to find that they can't get decent jobs. The son of one of my friends did well in college and now earns only enough for his girlfriend and he to sleep in a van at night.

A lot of people have lost out and have suffered really seriously from it in the past few years. Look at Detroit. Almost nothing was done to prevent serious deterioration in that city.

And of course this is not all Obama's fault. Although certainly the programs he proposed and headed to deal with the broken economy in 2008 did not address the issue of professional people and skilled workers in a lot of fields other than construction who were jobless and unable to get good jobs.

The economic picture is just so bleak for so many people. That is why Bernie is appealing. Could it be that it has been bleak for Black people for so long that they don't notice the contrast, the decline quite as much? If you have any opinion on that, let me know.

How do we unite this party when the perceptions about the past eight years and the direction and prioritization of social values versus economic policy are tearing us apart at a very deep, foundational level?

I don't think that the emphasis on economic issues is making people less supportive of the social, especially race and immigration issues. But rather the emphasis on economic issues helps bring people to the polls and also to a heightened awareness of the intransigence of the race issues.

I think that the existence of these horrible videos is making it more acceptable and even mandatory for white people with consciences to speak out. It is very hard to deny evidence like the video of Sandra Bland's arrest. The meanness in that video is just offensive to any person. And then when you see the videos of Sandra Bland speaking on race issues, you have to ask whether an internet search was made of her name during the five minutes that the officer spent in the car between the initial stop and then the officer's return to the car and his goading of her.

These videos are heightening white awareness of the race issues in the country. That is bringing Democrats more strongly together on race issues. It is a shame that it takes something like horrible videos to do that, but at least it is working.

But I wonder how Black people can be brought to understand the fears and anxiety and suffering of white people who have, as Bill Clinton used to say, "played by the rules" and been cheated by trade agreements and tax policy and the Bush and Obama administrations' leniency with the financial sector.

Another big problem with Obama for a lot of white liberals is is education policy. I don't think it has helped to unite the country, and a lot of students and teacher have been hurt by it. Of course, some of that hurt is due as in most cases today to congressional policies.

And that brings me to the most important question of 2016. How do we get more Democrats into local government and into Congress? That is the big challenge we face.

Considering how successful the Obama administration has been in many respects (no huge scandals that were real for instance), why was the 2014 election result a Republican Congress?

If people were really happy with Obama, wouldn't they be out voting for Democrats? Wouldn't they have gone to the polls to give him a Congress he could work with?

On edit, there is so much vituperative discussion on DU, I want you to know that I am really interested in your take on this. Thanks.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
454. Yes. Most black people are very happy with Obama.
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 12:08 AM
Aug 2015

We have complaints, but none that we will usually share outside of our group. The idea that Hillary respects our feelings towards him and plans to continue his policies, and perhaps improve upon them makes us comfortable.

Black people have been living in a century long great depression. We have NEVER not had those fears that are new and horrible for white people. That is why they think we don't understand their econimic fears. They do not understand us. We were slaves. Now we are the poor and have always been on the bottom. No matter if we are not poor, people still think black=poor. We know that they never seemed to care so urgently about our poverty when it was just us that were suffering. We look at you all in shock. You think you have it bad, we say with our eyes. We are not even allowed to live free, even if we have money. We know that once the financial problems are solved for white people, racism will be backburnered like it always is. White flight happened years ago, the disinvestment in our communities and problems already happened, and white liberals left us lying in shit and jailed and abused and now they tell us that they care. Well, where the hell wre all these people who care so much bout our unemployment all these forty years? Ignoring us until they needed our votes. Doing charity work here and there and patting themselves on the backs for being such selfless white liberals while at the same time judging us, ignoring us, telling us we're stupid, and letting raxism and institutional violence run rampant, blaming the black community and reading Marx and telling themselves that socialism will solve it. Pretending they aren't racist because they don't say 'nigger' while they aviod black people like the plague. Not hiring us, opposing affimative action, then telling us they are colorblind when we know that colorblind=racist as hell.

This is the problem, the disconnect. White people think that white people's problems are EVERYONES problems, and that they are the standard. Our problems are side issues. But they woukd be DAMNED if they let white people be treated like this as the sop while black folks. lived goid lives without 1/3 going to jail or prison. White people would have burned the fucking nation to the ground before they themselves lived in poverty and under institutional racism or black supremacy.

So, we do not trust you. Look at how things have gotten for us while you were able to ignore it since your family is not the ones worried about whether your kids will meet a racist cop and end up dead. We are not willing to just vote for your guy when you do not even understand the magnitude of the problem. Our problems are much more life or death and immediate. We say that and white liberaks say, 'what about climate change though? Don't you care?' No. Not when I won't survive a police stop for a moving violation, no, I don't care about your money if my life is in danger.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
455. I really appreciate your post. I can't change anything by myself, but
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 05:46 AM
Aug 2015

I think you should post it as an OP and send me a PM so that I can recommend it.

Don't expect many answers because it is very difficult to respond to your post since it is, every word of it, true. I like this very much:

No matter if we are not poor, people still think black=poor
.

I wish I knew the answer. But I think it is good for white people like me to be aware of this fundamental problem.

Have you lived in California?n

We do not or at least very soon will not have a racial majority. I am wondering how that will affect things a few years from now. I think that Black people still suffer more difficulty with racism even in our relatively less racist state. And there are areas in which racism is as bad as ever.

Do you live in an area in which Black people live in Black neighborhoods? Or do you live in an area in which people just live in racially mixed neighborhoods? Do you think that the racial integration of schools or neighborhoods increases or decreases racism? Is perhaps ignorance of another race a cause for racism?

One of the results of the California views on race is that we have a lot of children of mixed race here. I met a man who was born in Germany of a Jewish father and a German mother. He had many psychological conflicts and problems due to his mixed ancestry and the fact that his ethnicity and parentage had to be kept secret for his own protection, secret even from him for much of his life. A psychologist told him that when you have a mixture of that sort in your parentage, you identify with and are mostly a member of the minority or outcast group. That makes me wonder what in the world the basis is for the racist reaction in a racist group. Now the hatred of Jews by the Germans was not based on skin color. In fact, there wasn't much difference if any at all in the appearance of Jewish people as opposed to other Europeans. Yet the contempt and hatred was so strong. And in fact, the view that Germans held of Jewish people was that Jews were rich. Just as the view that Blacks are poor is false, so was the view that Jews were rich.

So I wonder what racism is really about, whether it is really about what we think it is about or whether it is just hate that is in people and expresses itself about race.

In one sense it makes very little difference where the racism comes from. But in another sense, perhaps we try to fight racism from a point of view and with a strategy that cannot work. If race is an excuse for the expression of hatred and not really about the color of the skin but about making the hater feel powerful, then it is much more difficult to deal with it by talking about race. Maybe we need a different approach. Maybe we should be talking about hate and anger and how race is just an excuse for expressing them.

In my experience, it is black men who get the worst end of the racism. They get ignored and stereotyped. How often does a white woman choose a seat next to a black man on a train or in a plane? Not very often. And why is that? I often wonder about that.

Of course, women of my older generation will always sit beside a woman rather than by a man I think. But I believe that the hesitancy to sit by a black man is especially great, and I think that black men are very aware of this. That reluctance betrays a basic racist fact of our society, unimportant as it is.

I also think that children of color get picked on in school more than white children. This is again especially acute with boys. I notice that with my grandson. He is an exceptionally beautiful child, but one of his pre-school teachers just picked on him. When anyone did anything, he got blamed even if it took more than one child to do whatever it was. He is really good at math and other topics, so it was not his performance in his work that was the cause of the problem. A friend of my daughter brought this to our attention. It wasn't just the fulfillment of an expectation or any preconception on her part that he was being picked on. It really happened.

A new Montessori pre-school worked a miracle for him. We need to emphasize that discipline problems in school are often if not always the result of a child feeling excluded. That gem of wisdom I picked up from a page of concepts about the Montessori system. So it seems to me that we have to deal with inclusion/exclusion based on race at a very early age. Because race is often the excuse for excluding a child. And Black children get the worst end of that from a very early age.

I think it is helpful to move from trying to bring the problem of racism to the point of viewing it more as the challenge of racism in our society and the price we ALL pay for it and then seeking to look for ways to meet that challenge and to end racism in our society.

I wonder whether there are other societies in which racism is not a problem or less of a problem. Do you know anything about that? Is there any society we could look to as a model for ending the stereotyping and discrimination of racism?

I appreciate your willingness to write so honestly and openly about this topic. Thanks.
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
459. I'm just glad I'm able to have an honest conversation on race for once.
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:05 AM
Aug 2015

This has been the best few days of race conversations I have ever seen on DU. I think America avoids these discussions because they are just so damn uncomfortable to start. It is realky hard to be honest about how I feel about these things, but sometimes I just gotta jump in feet first.

I was born in Los Angeles. 5557 Adams Blvd, you can see it on google earth. We lived above an appliance shop when I was born in a 2 bedroom apartment with 2 of my aunts, my grandma, my mom, dad, sister, 5 cousins, and 3 uncles. Yes. We were THAT poor. People used to laugh because they said we were poorer than the hispanics and we have a hispanic name and talk funny.
I actually faced MORE racism in Cali than here in AK. I lived in Frazier Park too, you know it? Up near the grapevine? Never been called so many names or been beat up so much in my life just for being black as I have been there. I felt safer back in L.A.. Nobody would even call me by my own name. There were just a few black people, me, my mom, and a couple kids at school who were mixed. They joined in the taunting and abuse too because were were BLACKER than they were.
The teachers did it too. Anything I did, even just not putting my hand up to nswer a question was grounds for detention. Getting too high of scores caused me to have to retake tests to prove I was not cheating. I had to start missing answers and letting at least ONE of the white kids score higher just to stay out of trouble. It was hard to do for me. I was always in the top 99th percentile. How do you teach yourself to cheat yourself?

Ahh, life! I think racism in America is a product of slavery and white supremacy. Not money. Not that black people are inherently bad. Just people who are trained to think they are better and others are less human. Gives people an outlet for their hate and violence. It will be in our history books. The oligarchy did not invent racism, it just uses the tool provided by the masses.

I don't think black men get the worst. Women get the sexism plus the racism and get left to support the kids while all the men get locked up. They get cut iff from services and watch their sons and daughters get murdered. No. Equal, I'd say, but black men get more attention. Until Sandra Bland the focus was on black men's lives.


Is your grandchild a black child? I had to tell my mother in law recently that she treats her white kids much better than her black son, my husband. It was very difficult. She constantly judges me for my life before I met my husband. But my uncle, who is white, married her daughter and she loves him to death, even though he is a lazy sad sack of shit. I had to tell her. I yelled, I screamed, and she cried. But she fucking heard me. And she acknowledged that she does do that. Her parents were racist. She is too. She doesn't want to be but she is. People cannot change unless they are told what they are doung and accept it as true.

As far as your grandson; Inam glad he has another place. But be vigilant! You may even have to tell peope what they are doing, warn them to stop, and get wild and threaten lawsuits. People must be aware of how they treat children. Our kids suffer ALOT of ptsd just from living their day to day lives, being black. Damages kids. Racism causes behavioral problems, outbursts and violence. Being treated unfairly causes anger to build up, no wonder they say we are violent! Pick at and picked on until you just explode!

See how the police try to force people into bad behavior? How they follow black peopke for MILES until they get so nervous they forget to signal? That is why we are cinstantly arrested. They will firce us into making an error just to harass and target us. It needs to stop. White folks need to get on those juries and vote not guilty and send us home.

I think as the leaders of the free world we have to work on racism to get the rst of the world to do it. I know of nowhere that has a mix of people that has no racism. We pretty mich invented the concept of race based slavery, which lead to skin color racism. Others learned from us. Even Hitler learned from our genocide of the native americans.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
163. That is the way you see it
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:31 PM
Aug 2015

Change the genders in your sentence above, and that is the way we see it.

Of course we will each "see" all of the threads and posts stating something negative about our candidate, and especially relentless snarks against us as supporters, but may not even notice many of the threads and posts against your opponent or relentless snarks against you, because they don't upset us like the ones against us and our candidate.

It works the same for both sides.

So how do we declare a cease fire? Who will raise the white flag? Who will join hands and sing "cant' we all just get along"?

Maybe the question is "Who will go first?" and then will the other side follow? And that will only work if everyone follows the lead, not just half of each team.

Any suggestions?

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
383. The same is true from Hillary supporters toward Bernie
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:04 AM
Aug 2015

so please live up to your own standard (if you can).

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
372. Correct ... its his supporters ...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:24 AM
Aug 2015

... and not all of them ... just a very loud and angry block of them.

They think personal attacks on Hillary, and her supporters, will generate converts.

It won't.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
384. It seems that Hillary supporters see policy differences as
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:06 AM
Aug 2015

personal attacks.

I think they better grow a thicker skin. If she is the nominee, what you have seen from Bernie supporters is nothing compared to what the GOP slime machine will roll out.


JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
387. That's you projecting.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:11 AM
Aug 2015

As for skin ... I think we'll be fine.

Good luck in your efforts to get people who would already happily vote for Hillary, to switch.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
389. So, pointing out that she refuses to answer questions
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:16 AM
Aug 2015

about TPP and the XL pipeline isn't attacking her?

Lets just make that perfectly clear.

How about that she didn't support marriage equality until well over half the country did? Is pointing out that she is in the bottom 50 percentile of the entire population, when it comes to civil rights, a personal attack or is it just stating a problem with a policy she was slow to support?

Or her 19 minute impassioned speech in support of the authorization for use of military force in Iraq? Is it a personal attack that she was the loudest voice in favor of the war of all the (D)s in Congress?


If you can admit that these are policy differences then we are on the same page. If you see these as personal attacks they you are the one projecting.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
400. Sure.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:53 AM
Aug 2015

1) the TPP legislation is not complete ... sure one can scream about how terrible it is, but I'd actually like to see it first. I'm not against the US making trade deals.

2) XL pipeline ... I find it interesting that folks who were absolutely sure Obama would fast track that (and were wrong about that), are now very sure Hillary will immediately push it through too. The reality is that the Obama administration is still doing the research on it, and sure, you can scream how awful it is, that's easy.

3) On no ... she didn't support marriage equality years earlier. Neither did Obama, and yet *GASP* he got it done. Why? Because he knew that if he ran on that, he'd have LOST, and it would have never happened by now. Here again, much of DU attacked Obama. Said he'd never end DADT, never support ending DOMA. Demanded he write an executive order. Instead, he worked the government. And now its done.

And that point is important. I find Bernie, and many of his supporters, take a rather pie in the sky mindset. Whether some on the left like it or not, Obama has gotten a great deal done. He's Presidency has been incredibly effective. I prefer that approach to moon howling. I don't just want some one who will stake out outrageous positions, I want things to actually get done. There is a segment on DU who has howled at Obama endlessly, and been wrong over and over. They seem to be some of the loudest anti-Hillary folks now, and that stands out to me.

4) Oh yes. The Iraq war vote. The one we gave Kerry a pass on in 2004. Strange that. And so many of you pretend that at the end of it she did not implore Bush to use this authorization as a last resort, which he did not do. And some of you pretend to not notice it. It was a mistake to give Bush that authority. I doubt any one who voted yes thought that Bush would not listen to the inspectors. For many, the goal of that vote was to get Saddam to let the inspectors back in. Which is exactly what happened immediately after the vote. Another point some tend to forget. It should have ended there. It didn't. Which is a great reason to never let the GOP be in charge again. Not a great reason to not support Kerry in 2004, or Clinton now. And I seem to recall folks here on DU who were sure Obama and Hillary were going to start Iraq style wars in Libya, Egypt, Syria. Didn't happen. Bottom line, I find a lot of the folks screaming about this to be disingenuous across the board on this topic.

As so often happens in this policy discussions, its the approach. I disagree with the part of the left who pushes for all or nothing approaches. The way our government is structured that approach doesn't work. And you get nothing. No progress.

And so ... Bernie would have my support if he were to win the primary. And its possible that I could come to support him in the primary. But I am not confident that he could get anything done if elected, and I'm not at all confident he could win the GE at all ... and that point is critical although some in your camp blow it off.

My #1 issue is not letting the GOP take the White House. That trumps everything else. #2, I have to believe that the policy positions being put forward are not just pie in the sky ... they have to be workable solutions. I get the sense that some of Bernie's supporters here think he'll become President and then "poof" the banks get broken up. How's that going to happen? I have a great deal of confidence that Hillary can get things done. Bernie, not so much. But he could convince me.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
413. I'll start with #4
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:05 PM
Aug 2015

I pointed out her speech, not the vote. Kerry made no such speech. Please stick to what I posted. The very fact that you must switch to the vote when the topic was her speech proves that it is indefensible.

#3) So she was lying to us for her own political gain? I don't see that as a reason to support her. Bernie has been supporting marriage equality for a very long time and he has been winning. You can go ahead and say that others were wrong too (as you did with Kerry) but that doesn't change the fact that she was wrong.

#2 + #1 ) Her arrogant response about not answering a question until she becomes President is unforgivable. Voters deserve to know where she stands on these things. You don't need to know the details of the TPP to be against it. This is like wondering about the wallpaper in a condemned building. It doesn't matter. The TPP should be opposed.


If you really care about how electable a candidate is then you need to seriously consider that the email scandal will blow up during the general and destroy her campaign. I think it is not much of an issue, but with her being ~20 points upside down on trustworthy rating, that 10% sample of her emails that had information classified as Secret could be a real problem.

Or if not the email scandal, then the speaking fees from Swiss banks. Or other donations to the Clinton Foundation. Or something else we don't know about yet.

It isn't "her turn" and to assume it is seems foolish. She has only won 2 elections in her life and they were both the New York Senate elections. Most any well funded (D) could have won those. I really don't see her being up to the campaign that is ahead of her if she is the nominee.


Autumn

(44,686 posts)
27. I been saying... For Hillary to win the primary,she has to convert LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:05 PM
Aug 2015

of people who would HAPPILY vote for her. Attacking Bernie, and attacking his supporters, will not convert those people. Go figure you would think people would get that but no.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
36. You are smarter than this.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:13 PM
Aug 2015

I have seen your posts in the past.

Hillary is way ahead of Bernie in Dem polls.

Bernie needs to convert Hillary supporters if he is going to win the primary.

No one is attacking Bernie.

Autumn

(44,686 posts)
48. Oh yeah? If I was interested enough I could give you link after link proving you wrong.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM
Aug 2015

But I give you kudos for at least not trying to say Bernie supporters aren't being attacked. If Hillary wants to win the election much less the primary she should step up and give Bernie supporters a reason to support her.

Autumn

(44,686 posts)
134. I didn't try a turnabout George. I just straight up mocked the post cause that door swings 2 ways.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:09 PM
Aug 2015

still_one

(91,807 posts)
79. Criticism of issues is fair game, but when they call Hillary supporters things like "fools, third way
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM
Aug 2015

Democrats, republicans, etc.", they are quite short sighted.

If Bernie wins the Democratic nomination, the only way he will win the general election is with Hillary supporters. There are some Bernie supporters who are mindful of this, and respectfully debate the issues. However, there are enough Hillary trash threads at least on DU, that actually hurt Bernie



beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
83. Oh, please.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:43 PM
Aug 2015

Have you seen some of the things HC supporters have called Bernie and his supporters in their group?

If you're going to wag your finger at supporters start in your own house.

still_one

(91,807 posts)
103. I am not talking about a group. A group is a specialized area where they set their own rules. I am
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM
Aug 2015

talking about in the general discussion : primary forum.

Groups are partisan cheering sections for their candidate. The general discussion forums should be about discussing why one candidate is better or not on the issues, not trashing supporters of a candidate.

Oh by the way you are assuming I am a Hillary supporter

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
112. Of course you're not. Funny how the condemnation is only for Bernie's supporters.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM
Aug 2015

You witnessed and participated in threads where we were mocked and called names but we're the bad guys here.

Got it.

still_one

(91,807 posts)
240. I did NOT participate in the mocking of any candidate's supporters running in the Democratic primary
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:01 AM
Aug 2015

However, I agree my recent posts are more defensive of Hillary than Bernie.

However, I have also been supportive of Bernie when I have seen unfair attacks, such as accusations that "Bernie is just a spoiler", which is BS, not the least of which is Bernie is running as a Democrat, not a third party. When Bernie was unfairly being piled on as being insensitive to POC, I called BS on that also. There are other examples to, but I can understand why my recent posts would lead you to the conclusion that I am bias for Hillary.

Perhaps the best way to express where I am coming from the following thread where I was arguing there was no evidence:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=486087

"Just looks bad. Tone deaf. "Bad optics". It has the appearance of impropriety, at the least.

Looks like a clear case of corporate cronyism.

In this case UBS is the corporation and the Clintons are the cronies.

A crony would be like the spouse of a government official who takes money from corporations and the official just happens to help them out.

But there's no evidence that UBS paid Bill $1.5 million because they want influence in government, or because Hillary stepped in to protect them from a major problem when they were shielding tax cheats from the IRS .

Maybe they paid him $1.5 million because he's just a nice guy that talks good.

This article isn't making any "allegations". It's just telling us these facts about what happened. There is no email or anything that says the money is specifically payment for helping them with the IRS. You are right there is no specific evidence like that. "

and my response was the following:

"Appreciate that you responded to each one of my responses. This last one makes the most sense in my view"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=486088

There are other posts where I have had good discussions with both Bernie and Hillary supporters. I haven't spent too much time analyzing O'Malley on the issues, but am starting to to do that now.

What I am saying is I am still analyzing the candidates on the issues

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
242. All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that both sides are at fault.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:06 AM
Aug 2015

Why pile on us in a thread where Bernie supporters are being called assholes?

Did you think that was fair?

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
195. You should not be excluding specialized groups,
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 AM
Aug 2015

as they still show up on the home page and everyone can and does read them. We may not be able to post in the Hillary thread, or respond to the uglies, but they sure are posted there...constantly.

Those groups should be to support each other and brag on Hillary and Bernie, not use a "safe" place where you can lock out "the other" while you relentlessly thrash them. Neither side should be doing this. Stick to the discussion of issues and quit making personal attacks. Even generic personal attacks are understood by both sides.

still_one

(91,807 posts)
203. Partisanship, as far as I am concerned is expected in those groups. Issues may not always be the
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:17 AM
Aug 2015

primary emphasis in specialized groups.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
207. I also included supporting each other
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:20 AM
Aug 2015

You don't have to trash Bernie supporters to support Hillary supporters, do you?

You have to know that anything nasty said about Bernie supporters in your group will be seen by Bernie supporters. And you really expect Bernie supporters to see that and not want to retaliate?

Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #207)

still_one

(91,807 posts)
248. I agree, however, special groups are governed by their own set of rules, and even though they are
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:11 AM
Aug 2015

visible to anyone, I view them as a private "club" unlike the general discussion forums. Incidentally, I have also seen on all the special groups for political candidates that the trashing goes on of opposing candidates under a "safe harbor" of the special group. I do not agree with that, though from what I gather, even in special groups, if insults or attacks are hurled at another candidate's supporters, those can be alerted by anyone, even someone not part of that special group

I got your point, I just don't know. Should a special group be viewed as a private conversation within TOS, even though it is visible to everyone? My view currently is yes.


zeemike

(18,998 posts)
141. Well don't wait for it to happen.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:12 PM
Aug 2015

Because when you are losing the argument it is easy to think of yourself as a victim of some unfairness...but if Bernie supporters would do the same thing they would be called whiners.

The meme being created is that criticize of Hillary is attacking and doing so will turn people off to Bernie...so STFU about her problems with elect-ability.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
148. Exactly.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:16 PM
Aug 2015

It's all a vast conspiracy to purge the site of Hillary supporters.

That group is full of people with persecution complexes.

When one of them has their post hidden or gets a forced vacation it's OUR fault.

Puglover

(16,380 posts)
358. Yes.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:43 AM
Aug 2015

You have to love the "So and so has been silenced" OP's.

No, in most cases "So and so" was nasty, got alerted and had a post hidden.

Grow up and take responsibility for it.

I simply do not believe it when I read asinine dreck like that.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
360. I'll tell you, the vitriol I've seen here has made me change my second choice...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:50 AM
Aug 2015

... From Bernie to O'malley. I have a problem or two with Bernie, but the most extreme of hus supporters drive me nuts.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
2. Plan B
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:37 PM
Aug 2015

When there's nothing remotely credible to attack a candidate,

B) attack their "supporters" .. easy-peasy .. just take some random
blog or anonymous post claiming to be a "Sanders supporter" who
says something stupid, then waa-laa .. NOW there's something we
can attack and not look like a total idiot.

Your "concern" is duly noted.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
12. Obvious concerned poster is obvious.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:49 PM
Aug 2015

Can't fight for your candidate on the issues, attack the real progressive's supporters.

Then pretend you're "concerned" about their behaviour.



beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
63. Since we're "matching" behaviours, how do you feel about linking to Stormfront on DU?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:30 PM
Aug 2015

Should someone be banned for that or not?

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
96. So why link to it?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:51 PM
Aug 2015

Was it to make fun, point fingers, support a statement, agree with the sentiments? I see people link to Free Republic and even Fox News for various reasons without being banned...so I suppose my personal opinion still can't be tapped since I don't know the context or how it applies to TOS.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
105. Who cares? You don't link to anti-semitic hate groups when discussing a Jewish candidate.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM
Aug 2015

Or I don't know, ever.

If a HC supporter had linked to a racist hate group when discussing Obama would you be so forgiving?


Hekate

(89,974 posts)
106. What exactly is your point with this? Are you implying that Sheepshank goes to Stormfront?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM
Aug 2015

He says he doesn't know what it is, so why did you bring it up?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
109. Because we're discussing disturbing behaviour by supporters on both sides.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:57 PM
Aug 2015

It's the hypocrisy.

Where is the outrage?

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
45. I think the op is saying the same thing...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM
Aug 2015

It seems to be a response to the attacks Bernie supporters have already made on Hillary supporters. So it's actually a counter-attack.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
72. "The one thing that will stop Bernie Sanders.....his supporters" <- NO, I'm not saying this
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:36 PM
Aug 2015

as you full-well know.

I'm saying the exact opposite: The main thing that will elect Bernie is his massive
numbers of supporters, of all stripes, who are fed-up to the gills with "lesser of 2 evils" 3rd Way
"shoot low, negotiate from there" lock-down of our Constitutional Democracy.



still_one

(91,807 posts)
85. It is not expressing views against Hillary that is the problem. It is calling Hillary and her
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:43 PM
Aug 2015

supporters everything from "fools to republicans".

If Bernie wins the nomination, and you believe he can win the general election without Hillary supporters, then continue as you were

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
115. Show me
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM
Aug 2015

a credible link, where there's a certifiable Bernie 'supporter' .. who can be
positively identified, who's standing up and calling Hill a "foolish Republican"

Otherwise, this is ALL conjecture and unsubstantiated here-say, based on
some anonymous post somewhere in the blogisphere, to indirectly attack
Bernie as having a "supporter problem".

The only problem Bernie has with his supporter is there are so damn many
of them that he can't get big enough venues.

still_one

(91,807 posts)
175. Here is one link, and the path followed. Keep in mind I realize this kind of stuff happens on
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:47 PM
Aug 2015

both sides:

The post that started it was a response to an OP from Salon which inferred the following:

"They’re terrified of Bernie Sanders: Fox News, Hillary surrogates and Wall Street get extra-nervous". This was followed by the opinion piece from Salon..

The comment made was to this OP was the following:

"You've got these fools on the run now! "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484074

The response to that was from someone, I assume was a Hillary supporter who made the following comment:

"Who are these fools?
Fox News the GOP or Hillary supporters? Might help to clarify that you don't consider the supporters of the Democratic front runner fools."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484084

The response I made to this was the following:

" One would think so. Whoever gets the Democratic nomination, that winner is going to need the supporters of the other Democratic candidates to win the general election, so it definitely would not be in their best interest to refer to another candidates supporters as "fools". Doesn't win friends for sure "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484093

The response I received from to my post was the question, "Are you a Hillary surrogate?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=484113

Not entirely sure what that meant in regard to my post, and perhaps it was sarcasm, but wasn't that clear to me. I am probably dense.


There are other posts, which are more blatant, and I admit it happens on both sides, though to be objective, I haven't seen O'Malley supporters getting involved in that much sparing against each other's supporters, but that could be because he hasn't had enough visibility yet.

My point is simply, that it is NOT in the interest of ANY candidate to insult supporters of the opposing candidate. However, a candidate's supporters should, and do critisize the opposing candidates on the issues, and extoll the virtues of their candidate on the issues. That is the way it should be.







 

7962

(11,841 posts)
192. If Fox is "terrified" of Sanders, why do they invite him on like they do?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:10 AM
Aug 2015

And why will Sanders GO on Fox LIVE and answer questions, whereas Hillary has been on ONCE and it had to be a taped interview?
Sanders has no fear of anyones questioning, thats the 1st thing I noticed about him.

still_one

(91,807 posts)
208. I am not arguing the OP, and in fact agree with your point, Hillary should be more aggressive
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:20 AM
Aug 2015

in public appearances as Bernie is, and appear on more talking head shows as Bernie does.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
339. You know what it is ....
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:13 AM
Aug 2015

her handlers are afraid of what shes going to say if shes not using a script or pre-approved questions!
Thats how we got the "left the white house broke" line.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
386. You made a point, someone politely agreed with you
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:09 AM
Aug 2015

And then you come back with this. Do you not "see" what a large portion of this thread is about? It's about the angry vocal the supporters' behaviors. The withdrawals from the emotional bank accounts have left the overall group bankrupt. It's so very unfortunate, because not everyone in your group deserves to be dragged into the foray by such a vocal few.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
92. I love how the advice to not "attack" Clinton or her supporters greatly helps Clinton's path to the
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:48 PM
Aug 2015

Whitehouse. I mean, could these people be more transparent? If you keep talking about things you don't like about Hillary, people are never going to vote for Bernie. This coming in the form of advice to Bernie supporters from Hillary supporters.

Thread after thread after thread about how Bernie and Bernie's supporters are doing it wrong. I'm afraid at this moment in the campaign our interests are not quite aligned. What they're doing is tantamount to Coke telling Pepsi to stop running so many ads. Coke only wants Pepsi to know, for Pepsi's own sake, that ads are irritating to many people and for the sake of Pepsi sales, they really ought to stop all this irritating advertising.

Coke can piss off.

How about this; we'll attack the way we see fit and they can defend the way they see fit and well let the chips fall where they may.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
120. I totally agree, provided
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:03 PM
Aug 2015

that said "attacks" are focused on real issues like a laser,
and not personally attacking a fellow Democrat.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
124. Agreed. That's what I do. That's why when they call issues oriented criticism an unfair attack,
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM
Aug 2015

well I just don't even know what to do with that.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
3. Thanks so much for encouraginging his supporters to work even harder, this was needed ...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:38 PM
Aug 2015

sorry stopped reading the whole piece, but nice take away for the supporters.

Bernie supporters ... Get Out There!!!





 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
5. His supporters are anti Obama. Thats why they will NEVER win over black people or the Obama
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:42 PM
Aug 2015

coalition. Never.
The second people talk shit about Obama black folks give them the evil eye. I've been discussing this with people irl and all of them (the black ones) bring up the fact the they have been told crazy shit about Obama being a right wing damn near hitler by the Bernie supporters that try to pull them over to Bernie. Combine that with the way they were acting.... No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you.


Edit:http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

This too.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
34. I don't like Democratic candidates, Bravenak, who govern far more to the right than they campaigned
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:11 PM
Aug 2015

And I've seen too much of it in my lifetime.

We can't keep kowtowing to corporations. The situation's too serious now and our margin's too thin. If Sanders can, at a minimum, shake things up even more to the "left" -- which is how non-compliance with corporate agendas seems to be painted now -- then good for him.

It's not about race. It's about who really runs/owns our economy, our country, and all of us.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
37. I don't think you get it. The why you bash Obama doesn't matter. Many POC identify with him.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:13 PM
Aug 2015

Bashing someone who a group identifies with is not going to get you support of that group.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
56. Then I apologize to you, and I'm sorry.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM
Aug 2015

I just figured with your phraseology you were jumping in to tell me about what "that group" was likely to feel, and I mistook your phrasing.

So again, apologies.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
101. As a brown Poc
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM
Aug 2015

I do. Meaning I identify with him and Michelle.

I have loved watching him come from behind and win when everyone thought it would never happen.

It has been great to see his young family, his strong, beautiful wife and her mother guiding the girls as if to firmly say.

"This is the American Family" Not out of the norm but the norm. Here we are in a new century.


This whole situation with Netroots and the ensuing actions of some is the one thing that makes me troubled and sadly, it has little to do with the candidate himself.

Losing the votes isn't the bad part, losing the trust is.

This would be a good place to put this link. Nothing politically may change on this site, but at least all of us will have a chance to help the grieving loved ones of Sandra.

http://www.gofundme.com/sandystillspeaks

Number23

(24,544 posts)
127. But the thing is, the vast majority of the bashing was unadulterated bullshit. It really was
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:06 PM
Aug 2015

The vast majority of the wailing was over things these people swore up and down were going to happen that never did. And when the wailing on one issue never happened, these same folks pivoted to the next bit of manufactured bullshit like it wasn't nothing in the world. It was endless.

Were we not supposed to notice that?

Black folks have looked at this white liberal wailing FOR YEARS. That NOTHING that man ever did was good enough. Was "pure" enough. And now these same folks claim that five brown faces at a Sanders event and two hundred likes on Facebook is "proof" of his appeal to minorities and are trying to browbeat us into supporting him. That is, when they're not shitting on and wildly distorting the legacies of black icons to suit their needs.

I have tried my hardest to COMPLETELY tune out Sanders supporters because I like the man and am genuinely interested in what he has to say. He has not said one thing I disagree with and to be honest, I am like "hell yeah" on so many issues that he's passionate about. But I would be lying through my teeth if I said that I was not extremely discomforted by the fact that so many of those that are the most unhinged and dismissive of the issues that affect me and my family act as though he's the second coming of sliced bread. There is a huge disconnect there for me.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
256. Bernie was wailing, too.. he wanted to Primary President Obama in 2012.. said "millions were
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:23 AM
Aug 2015

deeply disappointed..".

"Let me just suggest this. I think there are millions of Americans who are deeply disappointed in the president; who believe that, with regard to Social Security and a number of other issues.. " blah blah blah..

bravenak MOre.. http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

Bullshite .. Millions aren't disappointed and that is the Obama Coalition that will have to be earned by the Dem Presidential candidate.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
51. You guys are messing up.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:19 PM
Aug 2015

Black people love Obama more that we love idology or ideals. He is our founding father, we have no emotional connection to the slavers and genociders that founded this nation. He is the fulfillments of a promise and a debt owed to black people. We place no politician or ideology above him. Talk bad about him, lose all of us. Y'all don't get it. You've had plenty of white presidents, you don't understand how hard it was growing up being told that those men that would rape and enslave you are your founding fathers and that there will NEVER be a black man in the white house. Now that there is, we have his back. Fully. Ain't nobody in the world more loyal than us. We'd go to the mattresses for him.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
59. You are making criticism of some policy decisions more than it is.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:26 PM
Aug 2015

I was an Obama delegate btw. The only President I've done so.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
64. No I'm not. Not to me. It's very important to me.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:31 PM
Aug 2015

Just because you THINK it's unimportant, doesn't mean it is. The smallest things can screw you up with voters. Look at his numbers among AA's. He does not understand us and neither do his supporters very well. Won't listen to us. Think they know better. Refuse to listen. Just keep lecturing and trying to use logic.

Besides, since the netrrots debacle, I read the Bernie group and most of the ops here to see what you are saying. Lots of anti Obama rhetoric from that crew. Makes me sick that I never noticed how much they seem to hate him. I cannot belong to that group.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
221. What is anti-Obama rhetoric? Being against the TPP? Arne Duncan and Public Schools? Drones?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:32 AM
Aug 2015

If you have a disagreement on a subject, it would be better to state it. When you agree with someone around 90%, it's pretty high on the agreement side.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
47. so ALL the Black people you know say ALL the White people that support Bernie hate Obama ?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM
Aug 2015

so tell me Colin Powell was our first Black SoS did the same apply to him too? and oh what about Condoleeza Rice, she was the first Black woman to be SoS?

Seems some can't separate criticizing certain things a POTUS does, while applauding other things

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
58. Most of us who vote are paying close attention since netroots.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:26 PM
Aug 2015

We fucking love Obama like a family member, you guys want to be all ideological. Not ALL black folks, but most are already voting Clinton and the undecideds ask the more informed about choices. Guess what we tell them?
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

We tell them that.
And we tell them how rude people from that side are to us. We tell about the insane lectures and getting told how uninformed and basically stupid and illogical we are.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
66. ya in 2011 he said Obama should primary because it looked like he was cutting Social Security
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:32 PM
Aug 2015

I remember that too

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
82. no in the end he did not, but at a point in in time it looked like he might well make those cuts
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:42 PM
Aug 2015

I remember I was here then too

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
86. It was a mistake to call for a primary if he was going to run for President. It will be brought up.n
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:44 PM
Aug 2015
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
121. That among other things. I'll wait for the general.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:03 PM
Aug 2015

I cannot stand Hillary and Bernie is a no go. Not interested in O'malley. if Bernies supporters would stfu and listen and stop trashing people I respect like Obama, Holder, Lynch, BLM, and others, I could vote for him. But it would never happen. I go where I'm wanted.

Response to bravenak (Reply #121)

Response to bravenak (Reply #460)

Response to bravenak (Reply #462)

TheKentuckian

(24,904 posts)
456. He proactively proposed it that is indisputable and so it required push back.
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 07:53 AM
Aug 2015

Bush didn't privatize Social Security either so what?

That is a cop out and it was fucking stupid putting the party upside down on trust on Social Security for absolutely no benefit.

No, this has veered straight into cult of personality stuff and borders on placing godhead on a failable, mortal man, who surrounds himself with more failable and even corrupt people.

You think I'd not call for a primary for a President Sanders if he was calling for cutting Social Security? Beyond laughable.

Folks need to save the worship for church.

I also say this "logic" sets up an utterly unacceptable precedent. Next thing we know we will have we can't offend women who love the 1st woman President, then you get a neoliberal Hispanic and play that tune again. Then a neoliberal openly gay, same strategy and for all practical intents and purposes open policy disagreement and even more so opposition to bad policy becomes sin and worse it won't even be about the merits of the policy at all but reverence for politicians (a thing clearly historically irrational to insane in the vast majority of cases).

Fuck that! There are no possible rewards worth the cost of "winning" in that circular paradigm, we can't just be a bunch of adores that can be sold any bill of goods if the right race, orientation, religion (or lack thereof), or gender of salesman is pitching it from in our party.
This is well on the way Jim Jones/David Kiresh/Reverend Moon talk here. I don't need a new Jesus and if this is the foundation of the coalition then may it chip and shatter and less harm will come of it.

TheKentuckian

(24,904 posts)
465. I didn't have to "try" and it isn't an answer to my post at all
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:06 PM
Aug 2015

Did you read it? On every count but stupid as hell or greedy as fuck "open borders" (which the author contradicts himself by quoting Klein as stating up to open borders and then claims he Klein said no such thing ???) Sanders translates to at worst the lesser of evils so in context of a primary what are the points of the criticism?

That damn Sanders protecting my aristocracy of my bus ride from my one bedroom apartment. Bastard!!! That's soooo racist.

Isn't trying to crush wages??? Makes me sick!

The folks that have the hooks of the likes Billy Tauzin, Lloyd Blankfein, Pete motherfuckin Peterson, Jeff Sharlet (seriously?!?), Marvin Odum, Joe Swedish, Jamie Dimon, Tom Donahue, Bob Dudley, David Wichmann, Jeff Bewkes, and I could go on for days, all the way to the core are the least of our problems and indeed our greatest allies? Crazy talk, they are reporting to and worse ideologically aligned with the owners of this plantation.

Sanders isn't my end game but he is about and certainly near the very least of our problems among high level politicians very much less so than even almighty and supposed to be beyond reproach black Jesus, jr even (I'll stick with the original thank you very much).

It takes balls as big as church bells to even dare try to score on Sanders for not pointing to South America instead of Scandinavian countries when you kneecap him for what can only aid and abet the Honduras coup posse too. That says plenty to me right there.

I'm starting to get clearer on who the real sheep dogs are in context though, I'm not sure in my gut yet but it seems crystal clear where we are being herded but I think it is mostly because I don't want to believe it because I've been in for most of my life but the street signs are getting clearer and clearer by the day.

Maybe it comes a time when a person, a people, a population, a society, a race of sentients are willfully and almost irretrievably lost in in their very souls that wandering in the wilderness is the only way to find the way in their hearts.

It is almost like a desperation to hogtie and generally fuck ourselves is running through people.

I'm about at you wants it, then you gets it. The uncut version. I'm gonna keep making it as hard as I can but if folks want to insist then I can't stop you but I can do my best to see to it that every time you it is the full flavored stuff.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
117. I am very happy that Obama is your hero
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:01 PM
Aug 2015

and I can see that among my neighbors and friends.

This election is not about him though, it is between
HRC and Bernie, at least at this point. I hope that
O'Malley can get more recognition, since he seems
to have very good proposals, which should be incorporated
by all candidates.

I see this election as possibly the last effort for all of
the people to stop the plutocracy, if that is even
possible. That is why I throw my heart into Bernie's
campaign. I really think that for 2016 we don't
consider Obama at all; he has done the best he could
and is still trying to do more. All I can hope for is that
he is fair enough not to support any candidate until
the nomination, and I trust him to do that.
We may differ in the choice of our future nominee,
but,please, don't throw out the baby with the bath.

I know you won't though, because I have read your
postings, and have really come to like you.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
123. I'm voting for the winner of the primary.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM
Aug 2015

I was a Bernie voter but I lost my candidate. I don't go where I'm not comfortable.
I think Obama will wait until the general as well. Yes. He is my hero. He's one in a billion.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
94. Amen, sistah! Thank you! yeah, Bernie wanted to Primary President Obama.. not too smart.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:51 PM
Aug 2015

In fact it was bullshit.

I love President Obama too.. for who he is and what he's done for our country. There has been invaluable Hope and Change. I don't give a crap what the whiners have to say about anything.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
100. Some folks do not understand LOYALTY.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:53 PM
Aug 2015

I'm glad I found out that piece of info. I now know why the most anti Obama folks ran to Bernie.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
116. Oh yeah.. "..disappointed..blah blah blah".. sound familiar?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:00 PM
Aug 2015

And, President Obama has earned his Loyalty. He's going to leave such an amazing legacy for the next President.

bush-cheney had 8 years to fuck up our country and the Planet.. going to take longer than 8 years to fix their shite.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
138. they actually have acted like that. BS said Milions were ".. disappointed.." .. well, Millions
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:11 PM
Aug 2015

aren't disappointed and they are the Obama Coalition. That is going to be making a huge difference in the GE.. one way or the other.

I love them

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
146. I'm certainly not dissappointed.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:15 PM
Aug 2015

The world was crashing and he jumped in and carried us out of the storm. Obama is MY founding father. Love him.

Jamaal510

(10,893 posts)
253. The only people I'm disappointed in
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:16 AM
Aug 2015

are the BS artists in Congress (aka. Republicans) for wasting time and money, and all those supposedly on our side who sat out the 2010 elections (as well as misplace the blame for the country's problems).

sheshe2

(83,128 posts)
136. Kick and Rec your post.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:09 PM
Aug 2015
No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you.


I have supported this man from day one. White girl here, BOGGER and AfAm supporter. Trash my President, you get no respect from me ever. None. Ever.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
143. I have been reading each and every post from his supporters.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:13 PM
Aug 2015

Some of them are awesome fucking people who seriously understand the issues and try to pull the rest in line. The others.... Just not cool. They trash him like he killed the American dream singly handedly, expect him to fux racism so they don't have to hear about it, trash our activists and try to tell us what to think. It's bizzarre. I wish more were like Gollygee.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
222. Do you really want people to look at the color of a person's skin?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:32 AM
Aug 2015

If that is your objective you are doing a good job, but I think this is not the right path.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
279. Seriously? We wouldn't vote for Carson. He is a republican.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:27 AM
Aug 2015

Obama is on OUR side. No other politictian understands our plight like he does in a high office such as the presidency. No other president. He has changed the conversation beyond the stupid colorblind bullshit piled on us, so as to silence our voices and ignore our cries for help. That colorblind shit is just blind. If you don't see my color you don't see me and my unique experience here in this nation. Don't colorblind me, it's easy for you to pretend color don't matter. Our color gets us treated like shit, while you can pretend that it doesn't matter.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
247. Sigh.. "..the color of skin".. I would wager it's more than skin deep with President Obama. They
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:11 AM
Aug 2015

have not one clue.

If that were the case Dr Ben Carson would get the AA vote.. not gonna happen, oh clueless ones.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
298. Or Herman Cain. Who I thought was hella funny. He made me laugh so hard.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:18 AM
Aug 2015

That video where the guy was smoking a cigarette and the the camera went to Herman and h smiled all slowlike. Hilarious. Mike Tyson did a spoof of it. It was just as funny as the first one.
https://m.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
186. Skin color should not enter one's thoughts when deciding to vote for a nominee ...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:03 AM
Aug 2015

it should be about their record. As much as some folks want to divide people along the color of a person's skin I cannot follow along, just as I thought it was wrong in 2008, it is wrong now.

Argue the policies, not the color of a person's skin.

Is that something you really want to perpetuate?

This is barking up the wrong tree.




slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
220. The post I responded to copied below ...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:29 AM
Aug 2015

you agree with this post?

Sigh? What the hell does that mean?

Continuing a divide along racial issues is just a sigh??? There are racial divides, but I will not be a contributor.

Some people in 2008 said Obama would not win because of the color of his skin, I said they were wrong, because his message rose above the color of his skin, even though I did not agree with him on certain issues.

Do NOT make this about race, that is the wrong road IMHO.

Do you want to divide, or seek a common ground? IMO opinion dividing people along the color of their skin is a loosing battle, but it is your choice. Sigh



"His supporters are anti Obama. Thats why they will NEVER win over black people or the Obama

coalition. Never.

The second people talk shit about Obama black folks give them the evil eye. I've been discussing this with people irl and all of them (the black ones) bring up the fact the they have been told crazy shit about Obama being a right wing damn near hitler by the Bernie supporters that try to pull them over to Bernie. Combine that with the way they were acting.... No. It's a no go. I do not think they understand how much we love that man on a real level. We do not give a fuck about idology and shit when it comes to Obama. He is OUR ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT. You hate him, we hate you. "

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
249. Black people don't have the luxury of pretending life isn't about race
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:13 AM
Aug 2015

They face racism every single day. You and I have voted for Presidents based on race and gender our entire lives, for white men. But you insist her admiration for the first African American president is "divisive" because why exactly? After four hundred years of subjugation in this country, African Americans had the first black president., and so-called "progressives" despise him and insist everything he has done is useless because it hasn't done the only thing that counts: elevating the white upper-middle class and white middle class back to what they see as their rightful position atop the capitalist world order.

Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them. Their entire outlook is shaped by race and class. They just refuse to acknowledge it. Their entire conception of the decline of America and the Democratic party is not about inequality, which has existed since the inception of the nation. They insist the problem is recent, and it coincides with the decline of their own race and class. Only they assume that experience is universal, when that is far from the case.

Then Sanders supporters decided to attack a movement for Black Lives as a Koch brothers conspiracy, insisting BLM had no right to question Sanders, who had done more for those ingrates than anyone else. Who were they to question a great man like Sanders?

Now you think YOU have the right to tell Bravenak how to vote. I can't even begin to imagine why you think such a thing is remotely acceptable. You have no right to tell black people or ANYONE else how to vote. You get one vote and one vote only.


The divide in American society already exists, is a function of racism, racism through violence and racism through dismissal. It is the racism that gives you and I privilege, that means we will earn more in our life times for no reason other than an accident of birth. It is a racism that endangers and KILLS AAs every single day in this country.

As for black people causing division by daring to question white supremacy--which is really what they are doing--, I could not disagree more. In fact, I have learned that I have NOTHING in common with those white "progressvies." I do not agree that any challenge to white male rule is divisive. Rather it seeks to lessen divides, to combat the most violent forms of racism as well as the subtler manifestations that enable them. I do not agree that people of color need to keep their mouths shut because you want to pretend racism isn't a big deal, when thousands of African Americans are being killed by police, but you insist Bravenak's audacity in respecting a DEMOCRATIC African American president is divisive.

Who exactly do you think you are united with? It sure as hell isn't me.
Bravenak can speak for herself on that regard, if she so chooses.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
260. Your post is BS and you seek to divide ...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:39 AM
Aug 2015

racism exists, but I will not help in that respect if that is your mission. I never suggested that anyone should vote in a particular manner, I did suggest that continuing to divide people by the color of their skin is wrong.

You obviously disagree and would like to continue to divide, you'll have to continue the divide on your own. I know there is a racial bias, I choose not to participate or advocate for that divide, but I will speak out when any injustice is done, BY ANYONE.

And that includes the millions of Iraqi's displaced by Bush and Obama's willingness to look forward. Are they not people as well? His focus on not looking back should send chills to the AA community. You cannot look to the past in one respect while discounted the millions of people whose live were affected in our war of aggression.

We all have choices to make, I am saying that continuing to drive a wedge based on skin color is not the path I would choose. If that is your path, then so be it.

I will speak out whenever a crime is committed, regardless of their skin color.

I am not your enemy.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
267. The division exists
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:02 AM
Aug 2015

You told Bravenak she should not "vote based on race" despite the fact you have done just that in presidential elections your entire life, except for Obama. So have I. Yet that was okay, while Bravenak's admiration for Obama is not.

Bravenak lives being subject to racism each and every day of her life. Yet what is divisive to you is not the circumstances that perpetuate that, but her audacity in speaking about it. Working to silence people of color and willfully ignore the racism that is the structural foundation of this nation actively perpetuates the division you pretend can be ignored.

And mind you, this is all to promote a candidate who has refused to join the Democratic party. How is it that the only "division" that matters is an articulation of the rights and interests of people of color?

Pretending you are above race is absurd and disingenuous. She lives every day of her life being subject to racism. Insisting "division" is perpetrated by speaking out against racism is precisely what enables white supremacy to thrive.

To dovetail back to the OP, your response and many others in this thread is precisely why Bernie Sanders will not be expanding his base of support.


MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
443. Pretty much. Yes.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 09:39 AM
Aug 2015

Still, what happens on DU stays on DU. It has little to do with things like elections. Threads on DU calling for massive GOTV efforts, for example, sink faster than almost any other threads. DU does not affect elections in any real way, sad to say.

DU is where people post and reply about politics. The only people who know about DU are on DU. It's an interesting, frustrating place, but it's not influential when it comes to elections.

And there it is...

MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
447. Yes, but still not that influential.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 10:53 AM
Aug 2015

I suppose it will affect the Sanders campaign in a negative way, though, and he doesn't need that, certainly. Right now, his poll numbers seem to be stuck at the 20% or so level. My educated guess is that he'll continue to poll at about that level, right up to the early primary election.

He has some enthusiastic supporters. He also has some anti-Clinton folks who are using his candidacy as an excuse to further the attack against her. It can be difficult to tell the two groups apart at times. As things stand now, Hillary Clinton will sail through the primaries and cast her nomination in concrete by Super Tuesday.

If Biden enters the race, that would have some impact, probably on both Clinton and Sanders. He'll pull some polling numbers from both, I have no doubt. But, I don't think he really wants a primary or general election battle, and he'll be a solid Clinton supporter in the end, along with President Obama. Biden is already in a lot of the polls, and gets numbers just below Sanders in those polls. Iowa and New Hampshire show better numbers for Sanders, but even there Clinton has a substantial lead.

What I'm not seeing is any increase in Sanders' numbers over time. It looks to me as though he has attracted supporters, but far from enough to win the nomination. The polls showing that Hillary Clinton has high unpopularity ratings are polls of ALL voters, so they reveal that Republicans don't like her. Big surprise there.

As I've said before, I simply do not see any path for Sanders to win enough primaries to have a chance at the nomination. Unless we see significant growth in his numbers in these early polls, I won't change my opinion. I believe he has peaked, and peaked far too early.

Finally, anyone who can convince him or herself that the voting blocks of PoC and women don't really matter simply doesn't understand electoral politics in the United States. Those votes are solidly in the Clinton camp, and won't be turned with insults and attacks. That won't happen.

That's my educated guess about where things are right now. Unless something changes significantly and soon, my January prediction that Hillary Clinton will be the nominee stands. I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter on issues grounds, but I'm also an observer of real-life politics, and I don't give him much of a chance of making significant gains.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
275. Lol! Yeah, tell a black person skin color don't matter. That's helpful.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:18 AM
Aug 2015

Let's fucking pretend that it's that easy for black people to just pretend that skin color doesn't matter when THEIR skin color most CERTAINLY does and your skin color is the CHERISHED color in our NATION.

Do you even stop to think about how what you are saying sounds?

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
224. I've shut Obama haters IRL out of my life. If they can't see past *whatever* they've got a problem
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:35 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I refuse to bother myself with. If someone is unable to grasp what this man is, and goes to conspiracy to explain what they do not know, they are running from the truth.

As a CCWP, they can't hurt my feelings, but they depress me a lot. Not that most WP where I live are that way, thank goodness. I have warned some who come from more homogenous white areas, to watch their mouths. Because many white people have POC in their family. They don't take kindly to bigotry, as it's personal to them. And they just may be the one who gives them a job or decides their fate in some other venue.

For a black person it is a slap in the face that never, ever ends.

I live in a nieghborhood in which whites are the minority now. I don't care, it broadens my world. We interact daily. Many are African immigrants who don't have our shared history and are stunned at white racism. They assume that in America, it's illegal to be a racist.

But as for those whose families have borne the brunt of centuries of being targetted, it's a different story. When Obama won, there was a look in their eyes that was so moving, like they were in a new world and accepted at last and the nightmare was coming to an end. Here was a man without a blemish, who had done all the right things we're all taught to do, and a role model.

Then came the backlash. We felt like we couldn't even say his name in public because of the media voices. But I did, I praised him and it got me in trouble with some and the looks I got from those whites really showed a lot, I was no longer safe to be around, I guess. They bought the BS. And it's never ended, just mutated and gotten worse.

I recall MLK, Jr. saying that in their resentment and refusal to treat POC equally, 'I fear when we have come into our inheritance, that all that will be left is a burned down house.' (Or words to that effect.) He meant the country would be destroyed to prevent blacks having their rights and America fulfilling the words of the Declaration of Independence. He said that America was not a place, but an ideal of Equality.

Sadly, he was right, for a long time whites have withdrawn their energy and funding to make sure there is nothing left.

But that is wrong. The wealth they had came from others, and it was only on loan with God's grace or forbearance, for them to do good things with it for all peoples. Look at what they did with that wealth and power. It was good for a while for them, then not good at all. And there was a problem to begin with, but that's for another discussion.

Now they want to destroy the engine that would make things equal, the government with its power to put whites in their place as it did during the days of integrating the schools. That Civil War II, when whites went after others for a better Union. But now the rebels against Equality have just about finished their task and now want to take out all the wealth for themselves.

I gotta go. I may make an OP about why we are not going to get Sander's vision unless we deal with these issues. I'll post it in AA. See you later, bravenak. Your posts are inspiring.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
281. I agree. That you for this post.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:30 AM
Aug 2015

Everytime I read one, I feel like you said it better than I could.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
229. Holy hell. I am really surprised you pulled the hater card. I am also surprised that you played
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:40 AM
Aug 2015

he's black and thus, we don't care about policy. All we care about is color. Essentially, you just said, criticize a black president for his policy positions and black people will hate you. Color is more important than policy. (FYI, I viscerally understand the importance of a DEMOCRATIC Black President - if Condoleeza Rice had run in 2008 - and I really truly believe that she could have run a competitive campaign - and if won, I would have questioned the sanity of any black person who voted for her.)

Will you extend the same consideration to gender? I am a woman, should I ignore Hillary's policy positions and give the stink eye to anyone who criticizes those positions because she can potentially be OUR ONLY WOMAN PRESIDENT. You are a woman, is that your criteria for supporting a woman's campaign?

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Damn near Hitler. Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. What Hitlerish ideas do they accuse Obama of advancing? Specifically.

And finally, Obama himself has admitted that his policies are 1980s moderate Republican. I've been fighting moderate Republican ideology since 1976. As a Democrat, they were not attractive then. They are not attractive now. And I sure as hell do not want to support another moderate Republican (i.e. Hillary)

Obama says he'd be seen as moderate Republican in 1980s
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican,"

He said this as if were proud of being a moderate Republican.

God damnit. That is nothing to be proud of. I expect more of a Democrat than being a 1980s (Reagan, I will remind) moderate Republican.


 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
273. That will get your candidate exactly zero black votes. Congratulations.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:15 AM
Aug 2015

I'm telling you that what you are doing is counterproductive. It wins you no votes and loses you plenty. Why nobody understands that getting the most votes wins is remarkable to me. Yes. Keep repeating negative things to Obama supporters. It makes perfect sense if you want his voters to NOT vote for your guy. YES.

Hillary says kind things about Obama and so do her supporters. That's why they are winning. We like him lots. We don't care WHY you don't just that you Don't.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
287. Surprised that you did not address not one single point. You went immediately for emotion.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:49 AM
Aug 2015

If you are comfortable platitudes over policy. Then so be it. If that is what you are willing to support. Then so be it.

No. I do not like Hillary. I fought tooth and nail against policies that harmed the least amongst us while she was bragging about those policies as if they were a coup. Policies that put an unprecedented amount of PoC in prison.

And then "Welfare reform". The most horrible disgusting thing ever to happen to the least amongst us and a policy she gleefully championed.

"I have Black friends."

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
291. I told you how to win. You refuse to realize that most people have emotions.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:58 AM
Aug 2015

And that is the problem in his campaign. Life ain't all policy and numbers and ideology, if it were we would be robots. Black folks are very intelligent AND very expressive emotiinally and creatively. And we are loyal to a fault, look at how loyal we are to the democratic party, even wealthy black who would BENEFIT from the low tax policies republicans push. But most don't. Why? Because they are EMOTIONALLY tied to the black community, and they to them. We ARE like a big ass family, and we don't like the disrespect for one of our own for so many years from right AND left; the left who should have had his back but tried to stab him in it.

If you think elections aee won on policy, more power to ya. How the FUCK did Bush win? People liked him. People like Obama. We vote for the person in our own party who can win and that we like and feel comfortable with. We already know Hillary and she is saying what we want to hear. I agree with everything Bernie says and am 97% with him on policy. But as a human I have my likes and dislikes and emotions. He wanted Obama primaried. Not cool with that.

Now, I tried to tell you all to be nice to black folks if you want to win. I see that you think that is bad advice. Fine. Do it your way.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
305. Yet. Somehow, you were cool with Bernie two weeks ago. I am totally on board for being nice
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:28 AM
Aug 2015

to black folks. That is why I will not support Hillary who championed policies that threw more black folks in jail and threw more black folks into poverty. Bernie has been nice to black folks for a long time. Hillary, not so much.

But, I am not addressing the Black community. I am addressing you.

Do you stand with a candidate that championed polices to put massive amounts of people of color into jails and prison or do you stand with the candidate who fought against such policies when they were proposed?

Do you stand with a candidate who advocated to throw more PoC children into poverty or do you stand with the candidate you protested that policy from the get go?

Indeed. I am supporting a candidate that has been nice to black AND brown folks for a long time.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
313. I'm still 100% cool with Bernie and 100% behind the policies he discusses.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:48 AM
Aug 2015

I'm forgiving him for the primary, but I don't like it. Still don't like Hillary. If I did I would never even bother offering up suggestions or telling you how you are messing up.

I know about the policy. One of the reasons I hate the Clintons is because I feel like they smiled in our faces and sold us some bullshit and stabbed us in the back. We'd never let them get away with that bullshit again, but they keep apologizing and asking us for suggestions and listening to what we say and incorporating that into the message. They have pretty much been forgivenb(really, the more you guys repeat it the more people just forgive them), but we will be watching them like hawks for missteps. I only have one vote. You need millions of votes like mine. I can only try to tell you what I know.

Black people are forgiving. We forgive slavery, Jim Crow, whatever, we want to move forward and if we held a grudge for every offense this nation would burn. Most are VERY religious. Hence the forgiving. Hillary loves her some church. She will go to a black church and pray her ass off and sing some gospel and reaaly feel that shit. Black folks love people that love jesus. We and hispanics are some of the most religious folks in this nation. I went to church 2 or 3 days a week and did not consider myself a conservative christian. It was normal for black people to spend alot of time at church. Half the sermons are about forgiveness, but that's because we have soooo much to forgive.

I am an atheist. I'd rather not vote for anybody than vote for Hillary. I will sit out the primary possibly rather than vote for her. But I will not trash talk her. And I will attend church on occasion for fun. I don't mind. I go to be with my people.

Can't win black votes unless you understand them and speak with them and empathize. You have to get emotionally involved.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
322. Okay.She will sing for Jesus. How will a Jew ever have a chance with the black and hispanic
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:07 AM
Aug 2015

communities? I am not trying to be difficult here but if the test for Black and Hispanic U.S. is singing praise for Jesus, then a Jew has no chance in those communities.

No matter his life's work.

Depressing as hell. I am going to go to bed now. And weep a bit about the bigotry that flies from every direction.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
325. Black people love jews because Jesus was a jew. Don't even try that.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:21 AM
Aug 2015

He would have to come to them and speak with them personally. Mitt Romney had problems too, but he was the nominee and people voted for him. Black people will vote for the Democrat. But you have to make him the nominee and you cannot do that by dissing Obama or being dismissive of their world view, or attacking them with the failures of the Clintons. They like the Clintons, regardless of welfare reform and mass incarceration. You have to promote your candidate positively and he needs to connect with people emotionally. His supporters have to check each other on the pushing vital voting blocks AWAY from Bernie. He is the one that has to attract voters, Hillary just has to keep what she has, and it's Hello Madame President. I will vote for the nominee. But the person who gets the Obama coalition gets the black vote. Hillary praises the president and so do her supporters. They make black people FEEL comfortable being around them. That is how you win.

MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
445. Nobody's playing card games.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 09:47 AM
Aug 2015

Some people are providing information about what influences a bloc of voters. An important bloc of voters. Other people are not only not listening, they're doubling down on the very thing that is being brought up.

Black voters. Hispanic voters. Women. All are blocs of voters that can decide any national election. Offend them if you wish, but that will not have a good influence on the success of the candidate you apparently support. Accuse them of being stupid or of playing card games and you simply reinforce their decisions.

You don't like President Obama. We understand that. We don't care, really. We're looking at what has been achieved in a hostile legislative environment. We do like President Obama. You don't like Hillary Clinton. We understand that. But, see, a lot of people want another Democratic President and we can see the poll numbers as well as anyone else.

This is not a card game. This is a campaign. Someone will win. Nobody's playing cards here.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
243. sorry but Obama's going to get richly deserved criticism
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:07 AM
Aug 2015

For many of the stances he's taken. If African American people are going to internalize criticism against Obama I really don't know what to say to that.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
255. I criticize policy
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:22 AM
Aug 2015

and I have had African Americans here agree with me. What I don't do is vilify the president. There is a difference. The latter generally comes from the notion that the president is omnipotent, that he can do anything and therefore everything is his fault. We see the counter side of that in the astronomical expectations for Sanders. If he were ever elected, people would be disappointed since they refuse to understand the limitations of the constitutional office of the presidency.

Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them, the white middle and upper middle-class.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
303. "Also a good deal of what people dismiss is what Obama has done for civil rights, voting rights and
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:26 AM
Aug 2015
women. People here have called that crumbs. It is insignificant because it isn't about them, the white middle and upper middle-class."

Good post, thank you, BB.. very important issues.
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
283. Realize that you are harming your candidate and don't talk about us like that.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:36 AM
Aug 2015

That passive aggresiveness is what I mean. Yes we internalize attacks against him from our own allies. And it was much more than criticism. Piece of shit used car salesman? All those recs? Those reccers are the same ones yelling the loudest for team Bernie. Why would black folks want to belong to a group that trashes him so thoroughly and tells us we're stupid (basically, uninformed they call us)? We don't want to belong to that group. The same group hate Holder, Lynch, loves Cornell West who says racist shit about Obama that only a black person can say and they cheer him on and promote his support of Bernie.... They promote him as better than Obama. Alot of us only started voting BECAUSE of Obama and many will follow his lead. Hillary is smart for being quiet and saying nice shit about Obama. The more she promotes Obama the more black votes she gets.
Now. Do not say I did not tell you this. Mark this post because I'm fucking prescient.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
346. Being critical of Obama is not hate.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:07 AM
Aug 2015

Obama has been a good President during a difficult period of our nation's history.
But, he is not perfect and many of his policies demonstrate this.
Being critical of policy is completely legit.

Now considering all of the shitty things that Clinton herself has said about Obama over the years, why is there a disconnect when it come to Sanders who has been respectfully critical?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
356. Please read this post I wrote at this link.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:36 AM
Aug 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=488800

It is very long but it explains much of what you want to know. If I missed any of your concerns, please let me know and I will clarify it for you.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
390. Just finished.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:16 AM
Aug 2015

Great post. That is a great OP all on it's own.
I just want to say that I appreciate your candor and your perspective.
I think we agree at a basic level on most issues surrounding the primary.

Ron Green

(9,819 posts)
6. It's easy to understand the attacks on Hillary:
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:42 PM
Aug 2015

Abject fear. The fear that, if she (or even an opposing Republican) is elected, the same system will continue, the one under which we've been suffering for several decades: increasing big money in lawmaking, decreasing public participation in politics, and media that enable all of it.

Given this possibility, and that her election will be sold as some real alternative to the ALEC-driven process, it's no wonder that many of Bernie's acolytes are over the top in their fear and subsequent "attack mode" behavior.

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
7. I agree.....
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:44 PM
Aug 2015

I've got my bee keeper suit on.....they can swarm away.....the only person they can hurt is Bernie.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
14. You'd think the racist dog whistles used by the Clintons in 2008 would keep their supporters humble.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:51 PM
Aug 2015

But they just keep flinging the feces and acting all concerned about Bernie.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
16. We don't hate her supporters
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:55 PM
Aug 2015

We are too busy disliking her policies and how she maneuvers through the campaign.




Which started in 1992.


beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
22. I'm not a fan of the ones who swift boat Bernie on DU.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:02 PM
Aug 2015

I'm wondering how many of them will show up to applaud the op?

If you're into hypocrisy this should be entertaining.



whoops, I see some of them have already recc'd it.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
24. Your prior responses to me haven't had anything to do with policy
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:03 PM
Aug 2015

Have you turned a new page?

On edit... I suppose you are just being wry judging by you post #17. New page has not been turned.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
30. Sometimes
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:08 PM
Aug 2015

I just love having the gif of the community gals giving it a thumbs up. It makes me laugh even more.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
285. Why? It's common knowledge on DU and elsewhere.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:41 AM
Aug 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5683044

During the 2008 Democratic primaries, several writers criticized Hillary Clinton's campaign's reliance on code words and innuendo seemingly designed to frame Barack Obama's race as problematic, saying Obama was characterized by the Clinton campaign and its prominent supporters as anti-white due to his association with Reverend Jeremiah Wright, as able to attract only black votes, as anti-patriotic, a drug user, possibly a drug seller, and married to an angry, ungrateful black woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics


Is this the first you've heard of it?
 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
286. You talk about dog whistles and then talk about flinging shit
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:49 AM
Aug 2015

On the heels of several heartfelt posts made by people of color. It seems insensitive to use that particular analogy. Obama was also compared to apes. I will delete this response in a few minutes.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
289. You think AA's don't know about Hillary's 2008 campaign?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:52 AM
Aug 2015

I've read many posts from AAs on DU criticizing the Clintons for what they did.

Who do you think called them out on it?

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
290. This is not about 2008. It's about your insensitive comment
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:56 AM
Aug 2015

This about you telling poc they fling shit. What animal flings shit? And you talk about dog whistles?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
292. I said HC supporters were flinging feces, last I checked most of them were white.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:02 AM
Aug 2015

Nice try, though.

beam me up scottie (30,620 posts)

14. You'd think the racist dog whistles used by the Clintons in 2008 would keep their supporters humble.

But they just keep flinging the feces and acting all concerned about Bernie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=487706

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
293. On the heels of several heartfelt posts by Hillary supporters that are POC
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:07 AM
Aug 2015

Could you not come up with some other analogy?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
296. That analogy is used here all the time.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:14 AM
Aug 2015

I posted that at 8:51 pm, not even a half hour after the thread started and I was responding to a poc.

So I'm not sure why you think I should feel ashamed of myself.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
297. It's all about context......
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:17 AM
Aug 2015

If you feel it just fine and dandy, then perhaps you have little wiggle room to complain about that Stormfront site you so vehemently raise in several threads around DU. Right?

I don't plan on alerting to your own dog whistle....but will no longer give you fair warning either.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
300. Nope, it's all about the hypocrisy, race and religion have nothing to do with it.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:21 AM
Aug 2015

If y'all are going to fling shit about how badly Bernie supporters behave, you'd better be ready to get some of it on you too.

I didn't link to hate groups, I don't post flame bait and I stay out of positive Hillary threads because I like and respect many of her supporters.

My conscience is clear.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
309. Like I said, I know I have to live with myself after the primaries.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:39 AM
Aug 2015

If I swift boated Hillary the way her supporters do Bernie I couldn't stand myself.

I didn't do it in 2008 and I won't start now.

ymmv

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
315. Most people can live with themselves just fine
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:54 AM
Aug 2015

Regardless of any cruel actions, or careless statements. I'm not impressed.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
318. This from someone who posted an op calling Bernie supporters "assholes"?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:00 AM
Aug 2015

You're not the only one who's unimpressed.

I didn't post any cruel or careless statements but if anyone is hurt after reading the posts in this thread that's on you.

You posted flamebait and now you're reaping what you sowed.

Think about that before you try to blame everyone else.

My conscience is clear.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
323. I assume you are referring to the blog....I've never said such a thing
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:18 AM
Aug 2015

Do try to keep things straight.

Unfortunately speaking, the blog does point out a serious problem.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
55. You realize some of these folks have some mental stability/illness issues right?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM
Aug 2015

And the video was clearly a set up...

You get that right?

This is the same kind of tactic that gets used on Planned Parenthood. Do you want me to find the craziest Bernie supporters and say that they represent ALL of Bernie's supporters? I don't think so.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
61. The people that the OP
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:29 PM
Aug 2015

is refering to may have already trumped your find.


There are bad actors, wacka doodles, angry, single issue, bigoted supporters of every candidate.

My post was to reflect back what the original poster thinks is new and only applies to Sanders supporters.


But do what you need to.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
67. "Do you want me to find the craziest Bernie supporters and say that they represent ALL of Bernie's"
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:33 PM
Aug 2015

You mean like the op did?

Maybe you should be wagging that finger at them.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
93. The OP which said things like this...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:48 PM
Aug 2015
All Democrats are on the same team. The ultimate goal of every Democratic candidate, including Bernie Sanders, is to make sure Democrats get and keep the White House. I know for a fact that Bernie feels the same way; I’ve even heard him say that. He’s running as a Democrat because he doesn’t want to run an independent campaign that would make it a lot easier for a Republican to win.


and this...

To be fair, I’ve seen a few Clinton supporters do the same


Take your blinders off... sure it happens on both sides but Sheepshank is not the one who posted that ridiculous video, a one "hit" wonder on youtube nonetheless.

You can, and should do better.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
97. No, the one who called his supporters "assholes". Or did you miss that on purpose?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:52 PM
Aug 2015

You're the one only scolding Bernie's supporters.

Since you claim to support him maybe you should be spreading that condemnation around.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
102. A rediculous RW trashy attempt a "gotcha" video was posted...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:54 PM
Aug 2015

I call out crap when I see it.

Shit like this makes me agree with the damn OP.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
118. No, you don't.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:02 PM
Aug 2015

You only call out "crap" when one side does it.

Which is exactly why you agree with the op.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
137. You expected something else in this thread?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:11 PM
Aug 2015

I knew exactly what it would turn into.

When I want progressive discourse I don't look for it in flamebait where one group is called assholes and the other responds with gleeful hypocrisy.

Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
17. Let it go.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:57 PM
Aug 2015

You have concerned yourself enough. You deserve a peaceful Saturday night.

Call a friend, pet the dog---enjoy your life.

Let the worries of the Sanders' campaign completely disolve away.

Response to Sheepshank (Reply #9)

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
46. It's simple. Their ability to come up with a strategy is extremely limited.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:17 PM
Aug 2015

They see it as they want candidate X and if candidate Y is leading, to overcome that they have to attack candidate Y.

Those folks relentlessly attacking Hillary hoping that will help Bernie don't get any of the complexities of human dynamics beyond that.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
176. Where does Hillary stand on the TPP and the XL pipeline?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:50 PM
Aug 2015

It is her policies and her strong ties to Wall Street that we object to. What policies? Well she better speak up and say where she stands on critical issues.

We don't want another destructive trade deal! We want the dirty Canadian crude to stay in the ground!

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
396. It should be about comparing the policies of one vs the policies of the other.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:23 AM
Aug 2015

That is precisely what it should be about and all it should be about.

If Hillary will not admit to her positions on critical policy issues that should be considered a huge negative by everyone, even by Hillary supporters.

Most of us on DU feel she will not admit her positions because her positions are very unpopular. We can't handle the truth?

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
10. Well, thank you so very much.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:46 PM
Aug 2015

I have never been called a self-righteous asshole up to now.

I have never attacked HRC personally, but disagree with many
of her policies.Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous asshole.

I don't like to be told in answer to a question to wait until the candidate
is elected.Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous asshole.

I deplore that she played a race card during the 2008 election and
have heard no apology. Now I know that this makes me a self-righteous
asshole.

Sheez, I am leaning a lot about myself from the HRC supporters.

Thank you very much for the insight you seem to have.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
21. No one is talking about 100%
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:01 PM
Aug 2015

And I'm sorry if you taking this personally. As you indicate, this blog did not ispeak of you. It clearly does not speak to poster #2'. However, the blog seems to encapsulate the sentiments I have been seeing and feeling for many of the vocal Bernie supporters as of late. Just look at those follow up posts on this thread. I know I've tried to talk to the individuals...there are non so blind as those that will not see.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
43. Then let me tell you something about
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:15 PM
Aug 2015

the last Bernie volunteer meeting I attended.

All of us agreed to talk about Bernie's plans and
proposals and not to bring up HRC at all.

If however the person we talk to brings up HRC
we can point out the differences in their policies,
yet telling her/him that the main issue is to vote
in our caucuses.

We all as volunteers respect Bernie's wishes to
keep the conversation positive and on the issues.

I believe that most of Bernie's volunteers all over
the 50 states will act that way.

progressoid

(49,754 posts)
13. "The GOP is our target. The GOP is our target."
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:50 PM
Aug 2015

Although it seems Bernie Sanders supporters are the target.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
81. Makes perfect sense
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:41 PM
Aug 2015

since it's the only avenue left to attack Sanders, while .. of course...
pretending to be "concerned" that his supporters will "mess it up" for
Bernie.

Frances

(8,519 posts)
19. I will vote for the Dem nominee, whoever he/she is
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 09:59 PM
Aug 2015

But I may have to hold my nose when voting for Sanders simply because I see so many obnoxious posts from his supporters on DU

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
122. That's the spirit. Do it for the good of the party. You don't have to like us, but we appreciate
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:04 PM
Aug 2015

your vote. At least you can sleep well at night knowing what you see is what you get with Bernie. That should be at least a little bit comforting.

neverforget

(9,433 posts)
304. If Clinton should win the primary
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:28 AM
Aug 2015

I'll hold my nose and vote for her in the general because of her policies not because of some obnoxious supporters on the internet.

 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
20. Don't overinflate your ego. Most voters never heard of DU
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:00 PM
Aug 2015

and don't concern themselves with petty squabbles on this site.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
54. A point of clarification....I absolutely realize your statement to be true.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:22 PM
Aug 2015

What I found interesting is that a non DU blog is seeing the same behaviors elsewhere and outside of the DU bubble

Cha

(295,517 posts)
80. Oh it's not just that blog.. The Obama Diary which has over 30 million hits since Oct '09 has
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM
Aug 2015

Tweets from Black and White POSTERs saying the same thing.

calimary

(80,521 posts)
119. This is not the only place outside the DU bubble where it's noticeable.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:02 PM
Aug 2015
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lorraine-devon-wilke/bernie-bullying-and-other_b_7908216.html

I too find it interesting that this view is not just an observation based on happenings here in our little DU world, Sheepshank. Of course, there's usually a sense of "maybe it's just me, but..."

However, it's not just a case of Hillary people here on DU who are supposedly just whining about somebody being mean to them, either. No longer. Like it or not, confirm it or deny it, this is becoming a thing. This and the OP both appear to be independent, objective testimony. I'd venture to say nobody from here (or from anywhere within the Hillary camp, for that matter) ordered or forced either of these bloggers to write what they did.

Guys - we all need to remind ourselves repeatedly from WHOEVER'S camp - that we ALL face THE SAME common enemy. The enemy is the GOP. NOT various segments of Democrats.

Family feuds are NOT helpful.
 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
180. Even better than the op. Well said and great examples
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:55 PM
Aug 2015

It's all backfiring for Bernie Supporters and judging by this thread, doubling down is so much more important than trying to moderate.

The rub is in the way too many of his supporters are comporting themselves in their effort to promote the cause. I don't mind the enthusiastic postings about big crowds, electrifying speeches, or hope-inducing polls. The ideas he's touting, the kind of government he's visualizing, the core principals of his platform are all admirable, and it's easy to see why people are excited. That's how it should go in campaigns, certainly at this point in the process. I don't even mind the countless invitations I've received to join this "Bernie group" on Facebook, or come to that Bernie event in Hollywood. Invite away; I'm a big girl and I have no problem being gracious in my responses.

But lately I'm seeing too many threads on the topic turn into sadly-typical spitting contests, with those supporting Bernie flinging epithets at Hillary supporters, breathlessly listing all her purported transgressions and foibles, denigrating her accomplishments, insulting her personal decisions, and acting as though anyone who supports her is an idiot who doesn't grasp the folly of their ways. I've had Bernie supporters get snarly with me, bait me to answer questions about why I might support Hillary, push me to defend her record, explain her business decisions, even parse her choice to stay with her husband. As a woman I find it appalling, but frankly, many of those most zealous on this topic are women... Hillary has always had the capacity to trip the wire with some on that side of the gender aisle!


And the example of swarming the Jane Goodall web, was a prime example!
 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
418. Still that blog is not read by most voters
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:50 PM
Aug 2015

and most voters don't blame the candidate for what his/her unpaid supporters say or do. Unpaid supporters are not official campaign spokespeople. Most are ordinary folks, like most voters are.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
62. Yeah, ask black people their experience with Bernie supporters after #Blacklivesmatter you cant
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:30 PM
Aug 2015

dismiss this as an author who might be too close to Hillary.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
78. Did BLM choose Bernie because as a former FLOTUS Hillary is surrounded by secret service?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:40 PM
Aug 2015

wonder what kind of reception they'd have gotten if they had tried the same thing at one of her speaking engagements?

as to the online comment prove each and every offensive comment actually came from a Bernie suppoter moreover I found the complete denigration of Bernies civil rights record offensive with one Twitter star going as to say as he was required to march with MLK, got news no he was not required, he easily could have supported from afar without putting his life on line, because that's how it was back then

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
215. I guess, then, this would be this week's "smear"
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:24 AM
Aug 2015

In a far more public forum than Netroots Nation (which, btw, I attended back in 2007 when it was still Yearly Kos, and I sat next to someone who scoffed when Obama was mentioned, saying "no one will ever elect a black man." I told that "progressive" he might be surprised.)

So here's the new problem, following the BLM incident and the Hispanic incident, from an article about the various candidates at Friday's National Urban League conference:

The conference Friday had offered a chance for Senator Bernie Sanders, the Vermont independent who is challenging Mrs. Clinton for the Democratic nomination and has generated a loyal following among white liberals, to appeal more directly to black voters. But his speech highlighted just how much work he still has to do.

At one point, Mr. Sanders begged for the crowd’s indulgence to discuss his campaign platform before focusing on the “save our cities” subject of the gathering. But he called that “your theme” — an off-key remark, and one that echoed a speech he made on Thursday, in which he twice referred to Latinos as “your people” before the United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/politics/hillary-clinton-hits-jeb-bush-first-and-hard-in-speech-on-race.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


Yes, he has a lot to learn about campaigning and winning voters when he is invited to speak to a group and then, pushing aside the theme of "their" conference, wants to talk about his own agenda first. There are a lot of rough edges there. Perhaps it's just that he knows he's not really in it to win it, but rather simply to push his ideas. That's fine. But it's not going to win over large blocs Democratic, and especially minority Democratic, voters.


 

villager

(26,001 posts)
29. Good description of the Hillary posters on this site, alas
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:07 PM
Aug 2015

Constant "attack, attack, attack" against the Bernie posters here, and no attempt to discuss OPs, issues, etc.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
35. "Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:12 PM
Aug 2015
self-righteous assholes."

Wow.. Milt doesn't mince words, Sheepshank!

Mahalo for the OP
 

TheProgressive

(1,656 posts)
40. Ah, the desperation of the Hillary camp...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:14 PM
Aug 2015

The Democratic Rule: I'll vote always vote for the candidate who best represents my political and societal views. Period.
Because I am a progressive, liberal, thinking, thoughtful human, I am voting for Senator Sanders.

And I will not vote for anyone who's ideology is contrary to mine.

Isn't is funny that Hillary supporters are always attempting to tear down Bernie and his supporters, instead
of singing the praise of Hillary? I see, not much there to sing....

Bernie Sanders will win the Presidency *because* of his supporters.

oasis

(49,102 posts)
41. The shaky Supreme Court situation presents a sobering soul search
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:14 PM
Aug 2015

for those who contemplate a return to mid-sixties America.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
52. Not so at all, if you believe that
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:20 PM
Aug 2015

Bernie can go all the way.

I trust his choice in justices, because he is not
beholden to corporations or banks; he will choose
his candidates by thinking who are the best for
the people.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
76. Actually you have it ass backwards.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:38 PM
Aug 2015

This tactic was tested here, and now it is on display out there. More Rovian/Atwater bullshit is all this is.

The posts, and now blogs, always start the same - I support, I love, I respect, I admire Bernie Sanders. Then comes the typical statements - but he can't win, he does not have the money, he is a problem with minorities, etc. Then comes the the last part - but his supporters are what are really bad and will lose it for him.

The 'Progressive Unicorn Brigade'? Fuck that bullshit. The asshole reveals himself for the Clinton shill that he truly is. No, sweetpea, the only self-righteous assholes are the Clinton lackeys who will drive the majority progressives on the left - both party faithful Democrats and leftist Independents - so far away from Clinton, that if (and it is going to be a big if) she does win the primary, she will surely lose the general. The base, which by the way, is not the New Dem neo-liberal conserva-dems, will not vote her into the White House.

Now if you will excuse me, I am off to be meet with some more self-righteous asshole members of the PUB so that we can get a real progressive Democratic nominee.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
132. You're the one who said you were too pure to vote for Clinton in 1992
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:08 PM
Aug 2015

and 1996. Something about "babes".

He won without you then, so, oh well. Your purity standards don't add up to the poll numbers which show Clinton with a commanding lead now, so you can have your empty rhetoric.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
225. Bullshit!
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:36 AM
Aug 2015

I did not vote for Clinton because he was a neo-liberal Third Wayer. His personal shit is just the icing on the cake when it comes to the GOP.

Purity? No, reality. The Democratic party USED to be very different. We can thank the DLC/Third Way for the glorious changes.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
251. Bullshit is right.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:14 AM
Aug 2015

There were no neo-liberal Third Wayers when Clinton ran, not in the way you are applying this new rhetoric to those prior years. Liberal was a dirty word so they tried something new, kinda like the GOP calling themselves, "compassionate conservatives." It didn't really mean anything, especially as compared to how it's used now.

The main point was that your standards of purity didn't affect Clinton winning in 1992, and they don't reflect current majority views of the party, obviously.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
257. This is the typical line of bullshit
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:33 AM
Aug 2015

from y'all.

You can't respond to my actual post which nails the propaganda techniques, you simply launch into an attack. Then when pushed back on that, you lie. Yes, you flat out lie.

The DLC was founded in 1985. They hailed Bill Clinton's 1992 win as proof of their 'success story'. They made liberal an even dirtier word.

After decades, we now know what the DLC/Third Way/Neo-liberalism/New Dem coalition is about. To stand opposed to it is not about purity. That is another attack based on a lie.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
377. "After decades" -- yes, that's my point -- after decades there are
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:51 AM
Aug 2015

now these new talking points being flung around: corporatist, third way, etc. They weren't around in 1992, so for you to state that they were is not accurate. The "propaganda techniques" were not in effect as you describe back in 1992 when you were too pure to vote for Clinton then. Hmmm.

Anyway, that's how this new name-calling has become ineffective -- people realize what you describe is so far to the fringes. For you to state that the Democratic party can't win without you is inaccurate. We have and we will.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
388. You are willfully ignorant on this.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:13 AM
Aug 2015

These are not talking points. The revisionistic bullshit you are peddling are the talking points.

The DLC/Third Way started in the 1980's with foundations going back even further to McGovern's defeat in 1972. They branded themselves from the start as corporate friendly. They wanted to move towards the center of American politics because they believed that leftist views would lead them to defeat especially after the 'Reagan Revolution'. The preached tax cuts, welfare reform, and corporate friendly positions from the start.

Bill Clinton was the President of the DLC in 1990 until his election in 1992. He clearly presented his triangulated campaign positions but most voters fell for the successful marketing of the Third Way/DLC which rebranded progressivism as moderate social liberal stances only. After all, Sam Nunn, a founding member of the DLC, was adamantly opposed to LGBT civil rights and encouraged Clinton to pass DADT and DOMA.

Many Democrats fell for this New Democrat bullshit in 1992 and 1996 and even though they began to wake up to it during the Bush years, Obama - yet another New Dem - was elected in 2008 with the same type of campaign. Hillary Clinton is yet again doing the same.

It is great that the majority of Democrats are finally seeing the damage that New Dem's have caused both to the country and the party. Their corporate friendly, come to the party late social liberalism, and dangerously similar to neo-conservatives foreign policy stances are NOT what this country needs today.

I won't ever apologize for being intelligent enough to see through the New Dem's Clinton bullshit over 30 years ago.

And yes, in actuality, the demographic that I personally fall into will be the deciders of this election. As of July 2015, less than 30% of polled Americans identify with the Democratic party. 46% though are independents and they are roughly split between left leaning and right leaning ones. If the Democratic party hopes to win this election, then yes, that 46% needs to be sold on why we should vote for the Democratic party. Hillary Clinton is just another New Dem. Been there, done that, and we are sick of it. Bernie Sanders is closer to a traditional progressive pre-Third Way Democrat even if he has always been an independent. You do the math smart boy!

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
398. NO, you are engaging in revisionist history to suit your PUB mentality now.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:32 AM
Aug 2015

You've obviously been doing reading to support your current position(s), and then retroactively applying those talking points as if they had the same impact that they did then. They didn't. Your own writing betrays that: "most voters fell for the successful marketing." No shit, because that's what it was -- marketing.

So YOU do the math, smart boy (using your words). Everything you are talking about is a revision of what was going on at the time. I doubt you "saw through" the "New Dem" Clinton bullshit over 30 years ago because there was no history to see through yet. You continue using current words to describe decades-old campaign techniques, which were just slogans at that point. Yet you just knew how it would all turn out some 30 years later. LOL, sure thing.

BTW, 30 years ago, appealing to corporations was not a dirty thing like it's made out to be now. That's yet another of your many fallacies. If what you are saying is true about the PUB's, Clinton would not have a substantial lead in the polls. But you keep telling yourself that the Democratic party can't survive without you. We have, and we will. The fringe has always been there, but that hasn't stopped us before.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
403. It is only revisionistic in your deluded fantasies.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:55 AM
Aug 2015

I watched the New Dems rise within the Democratic party. From their founding in 1985 to Bill Clinton's election in 1992 was 7 years smart boy. Wow, I wonder what an intelligent person could learn during that time about the New Dems and their policy positions. If only they had a Think Tank. Oh, wait, they did, The Progressive Policy Institute which still exists today.

Their Mandate for Change was endorsed by Clinton during his election. He made it a centerpiece of his New Dem policies and worked tireless with congress to enact more of it then many realize. Maybe many didn't read what that was really about. I guess those might be some of the ones who fell for the marketing. Oh, by the way, did you know that the PPI modeled the marketing campaigns after the Heritage Institute and CATO? I did. And now many more know. That Mandate for Change was not in sync or inline with the traditional Democratic party platform and positions.

Actually yes, appealing to corporations by influencing policy was a bad thing. The only thing was that Democrats assumed that only the GOP did that. Have you forgotten The Powell Memo that gave rise to the Heritage Foundation and ALEC? And perhaps you are also ignorant of the works David Harvey who traces the roots of neoliberalism to that early 1970's memo.

I know this is a stretch for the uneducated but for those with intelligence and those capable of research, the connections have been there for well nigh 40+ years. By the time of Clinton's election in the 1990's, yes neo-liberalism and the New Dem's were actually a thing able to be studied, understood, and warned against.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but you are trying to rewrite history, not I. But what do I expect. You will insult me by claiming I am a 'fringe' voter or a member of the 'PUB'. That's all you have at this point. Nothing more. You have the arrogance of a New Dem. You assume the party faithful will hold their noses and vote. You assume that left leaning independents will get in line and vote for your candidate as well. You might be very surprised this time around. Enough time has passed to see who the New Dems are and how badly they govern from the center right.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
406. "those capable of research" - that's my point. What you describe is research.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:07 PM
Aug 2015

That much is obvious. Anyone can read now and go back 30 years ago and apply all the corporatist, Third-Way name-calling and current trends to the past and call themselves smart.

It's revisionist history. All you have to do is look at the past elections and see what was actually used to influence voters, and that's what was reality. It just wasn't reality to say that 30 years ago, the average voter was going to say that appealing to corporations was a bad thing as is promoted now. It just didn't happen. The things you are describing are more textbook examples than reality AT THE TIME.

And my original post was that you were too pure to vote for Clinton in 1992. You supported that by your continued postings of your obvious retro "research." So back to my original post, if you were too pure then, and you're too pure now, it doesn't really matter. The fringe has always been there, and it hasn't stopped us.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
408. Dude, what the fuck?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 PM
Aug 2015

My research was then. And while there were fewer of us (I won't even pretend to have numbers), it does not mean it wasn't real. Where were you then? Were you just voting for the slick and charming southerner with a D after his name, or did you actually listen to what he was proposing and educate yourself? If you did the later, then it is on you, not me or others who got it. Ross Perot got it and those that voted for him did as well. That is hardly the minority you retroactively wish to claim.

And yes average voters are low information ones. The purpose of forums like this are to educate them on what is really going on, what has been really going on, and what will go on if they vote in a particular way - in this case for another neoliberal New Dem.

Too pure? What the fuck do you even mean? Smarter than you were then? I have always been an educated voter. I take it seriously. I don't vote for a team. I don't vote for someone just because they are charming or give a pretty speech. And I educate voters around me that I come into contact with. Obviously from the roaring success that the Sanders campaign has been in such a short while, the 'fringe' is a lot of lot larger and more educated than you believe.

Identifying a candidate as a neoliberal Third Way politician is not 'name calling'. What idiotic bullshit you are trying to peddle. Those words have meaning and have for decades now. It is a statement of identification. Sanders is a Democratic Socialist. Sure, that can be made into an insult but nonetheless it is a statement of fact and identification. You guys really crack me the fuck up.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
410. Back to the name calling, I see. You guys really crack me up, too.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:46 PM
Aug 2015

"Neoliberal" Third way is indeed name calling. But calling someone from 30 years ago a corporatist really gives you away as being the propagandist and a snide way to say trickle-down. Thirty years ago, the Yuppies were all the rage, and no one would have dared to say that about corporations, so it's just false to apply current standards to past events and trends. The name-calling is all about current talking points (very current, actually). The fact you bring up Ross Perot doesn't mean you "got" anything, it just means you fell for gimmicky talk, as well. It was Clinton who was elected, not the Independent. That's what I'm talking about regarding the fringes.

Like I said, look what was promoted during past campaigns, and that's what was reality. Sure, now you can go back and see how the predicted trends went wrong, but that's revisionist history.

Back to what I said before, liberal was a dirty word, so they devised other names for the Democratic party and they were not considered evil monikers back then. To suggest they were is just retro propaganda.

This is now just repetitive. My main point is that some like you who were already too pure to vote for Clinton in 1992 are on the fringes of the party. REALITY was that the party just wanted to win after 12 years of Republicans. That's the reality.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
428. I am done with you.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:29 PM
Aug 2015

You peddle bullshit. Insult others but when called out on it feign insult. Tiresome bullshit from revisionists and propagandists.

R B Garr

(16,914 posts)
429. Yeah, well, you name call Dems here and insult the Clintons non-stop,
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:43 PM
Aug 2015

and now it comes out you voted for Ross Perot, who drew equally from both parties. The name calling and Clinton hatred does get tiresome.

You have a great day.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
98. I thought it was just on DU too until I saw the #berniesoblack tag and read the reports from black
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:52 PM
Aug 2015

attendees at Netroots Nation who said that they felt absolutely UNSAFE around Sanders unhinged supporters. Learned very quickly that DU is just one of a long line of places where the Sanders supporters have decided to scream down every one who disagrees with them.

I have noticed on DU that there are a slew of Sanders supporters that are as terrified of other Sanders supporters as the rest of us.

That man needs to do an intervention. It reminds me of when John McCain had to stop one of his supporters in her tracks when she was calling Obama an "Arab" (like it was the worst, most horrible thing in the world) during one of his campaign appearances in 2008. After weeks and months of watching his supporters act like fools, McCain finally stepped up and tried to shut down at least one tiny sliver of the unhinged foolishness his supporters were unleashing on the world.

Bernie needs to step up and do the same. He's not a strong enough candidate to endure these "supporters" most of whom are acting as though what they are honestly trying to do is alienate every single reliable Democratic voting block and tank their candidate.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
108. yeah, I wonder if Bernie has any clue what some of his supporters on the net are doing
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:55 PM
Aug 2015

in his name?

I don't think he would be impressed.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
150. After I saw a poster in this forum say that electing Bernie Sanders was the only way to eradicate
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:17 PM
Aug 2015

RACISM, I knew these people were gone. Flat out, no holds barred, lock the door behind them GONE. And the fact that this person was the same one who tossed the "race nagger" pejorative at the #BLM group and their supporters just made the stupid that much deeper.

Someone upthread just posted this link http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lorraine-devon-wilke/bernie-bullying-and-other_b_7908216.html

If any Sanders supporters want to keep pretending that this is just Hillary supporters spouting this meme, then they can go right ahead. Yeah it is Hillary supporters saying this, as well as undecided Democrats, O'Malley supporters and even other SANDERS SUPPORTERS that are slack jawed at what these people are doing.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
167. Gone baby gone. I saw that link.. it's posted in Hillary's Group, too..
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:37 PM
Aug 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110714184

Yeah, they are in deep denial and trying to project onto others, how they've been acting .. does this mean they're not going to stop? I think it does. I don't they're capable.

And, it is quite mentionable that there are BS supporters who are calling them out on their actions.

To quote from your link.. "COME ON, PEOPLE!! Stand by your man, certainly, but stop acting like a bunch of jacked-up bullies who need to beat up the competition to score points."

I saw that when they were attacking #BlackLivesMatters supporters, after they dared to interrupt Bernie @ NRN. It was unconscionable.

sheshe2

(83,128 posts)
173. There are some/few Sanders supporters that I really like here.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:45 PM
Aug 2015

They are compassionate souls. They have taken my back and I have taken there's. Yes, I have seen they are terrified or at least horrified at what supporters are saying.

Shit on my President is another story. Shit on my candidate is cowardly. Talk about issues is fine, hair on fire crap is not. Sadly, the adults left the room.

I thought it was just on DU too until I saw the #berniesoblack tag and read the reports from black

attendees at Netroots Nation who said that they felt absolutely UNSAFE around Sanders unhinged supporters. Learned very quickly that DU is just one of a long line of places where the Sanders supporters have decided to scream down every one who disagrees with them.

I have noticed on DU that there are a slew of Sanders supporters that are as terrified of other Sanders supporters as the rest of us.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
198. Everyone is welcome in the AA forum -- unless they're psychotic.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:15 AM
Aug 2015

We have some of everybody in there. People who LOVE Hillary with a capital L. People who HATE her with a capital H. And lots of people who do neither.

One thing I've found is universal though, regardless of who people are supporting, is the incredible unease that far too many Sanders supporters cause just about all of us, including other Sanders supporters. And like I said, I thought it was just on DU until I saw the #berniesoblack tag and realized it was a BOATLOAD of black people and clued in white folks who felt this way about these people.

How in God's name anyone could think that screaming at and alienating Democrats, particularly the most reliable, consistent Dem voting block in existence, is a winning strategy for their candidate is the height of unchecked, privileged stupidity. Or as the author of the "Bernie Bullying" piece in Huff Post put it, 'zealotry."

sheshe2

(83,128 posts)
235. "Everyone is welcome in the AA forum -- unless they're psychotic."
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:55 AM
Aug 2015

Hey, 23.

You and your group are the most respectful and welcoming group on DU. You are loving and you welcome diversity. Actually, you embrace it.

Ha...yup this place has gone to shit.

How in God's name anyone could think that screaming at and alienating Democrats, particularly the most reliable, consistent Dem voting block in existence, is a winning strategy for their candidate is the height of unchecked, privileged stupidity.


I have no answer to this. No clue why they are being so hateful. Yes, we have some trolls. That still does not answer for the hate. We elected a Black President twice, I guess some have not gotten over that. Sad.

Yes, I am white. I love my President and yup, I am already going through the pain of his leaving. Dayum, I will miss him.

This I know for a fact, he is going to rock us all the way to the end. He is fearless. He has done so much. So much hate tossed at this man, yet he goes on.

President Obama. Best President ever.

Fact.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
199. This is quite possibly the most ridiculous post I've ever seen.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:15 AM
Aug 2015

Almost entirely full of shit from beginning to end....

Number23

(24,544 posts)
204. Lol **PRIME EXAMPLE OF EVERYTHING THE ENTIRE INTERNET HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT RIGHT HERE**
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:18 AM
Aug 2015

You mad, honey???

Number23

(24,544 posts)
217. You need to take it up with the black female PROGRESSIVE who attended Netroots and couldn't wait
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:26 AM
Aug 2015

to get out from around Sanders supporters. She was the one who said she felt unsafe around these morons.

Arguing with me won't do a damn thing to stop the becoming more entrenched by the day belief that too many Sanders supporters are unhinged loons secretly working to make their candidate lose. Sanders really does need to do something about it before his campaign is tanked completely.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
230. "Sanders supporters are unhinged loons secretly working to make their candidate lose." Seriously?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:40 AM
Aug 2015

I don't need to take anything up with anyone. That shit's some fucking comedy gold right there. Shit that funny isn't very common at all.

It's gone from "Bernie's (wink wink) not a racist but WOW look at this picture of cops posing with a black man as their trophy!" to "OMG Bernie Sanders' supporters are violent to the point they terrify people of color and make them feel unsafe."

Fuck yeah... that's some funny funny shit right there. Comedy fucking gold.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
233. No one said anything about violence. That's you projecting some serious something right there
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:45 AM
Aug 2015

But none of this surprises me.

And I'm glad you think all of this is "comedy gold. And I'm talking about something important and relevant but if you want to push all that aside so that you and your buddies can keep focusing on one fucking OP from what was it, TWO MONTHS AGO, that's your sad business.

So very interesting what you and your ilk choose to focus on. So glad to know what's important here.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
237. You post things like "they felt absolutely UNSAFE around Sanders unhinged supporters" and
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:57 AM
Aug 2015

"supporters that are as terrified" and I'm not supposed to infer you're talking about violence. Mmmmkay.

By the way, how long ago was the "POSUCS" statement made? I bet there are a thousand references to it, made by the same five DUers.

You are a funny, funny person. No; quoting someone who supposedly felt "UNSAFE" at netroots nation while in close proximity to Bernie Sanders supporters isn't important OR relevant. It's unadulterated steaming, stinking bullshit. Don't stop though, it's surely entertaining.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
241. The BLACK WOMAN at Netroots Nation said she felt unsafe. Those were HER WORDS brought on SOLELY
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:05 AM
Aug 2015

by the actions of Sanders supporters. READ IT http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/07/guest-post-a-perspective-of-the-netroots-nation-blacklivesmatter-protest-from-a-person-of-color.html

Wail all you want, honey. Scream and howl at the moon. But this is a view shared by MANY people. Squawking "bullshit" and starting shit with people who are obviously telling you something it desperately pains you to hear doesn't do anything to dispel that.

There are at least three articles now posted in this thread from independent, undecided people about how unhinged and bullying so many Sanders supporters are. How about you read them and take some sort of lesson from them instead of squawking "bullshit" and burying your head in the sand pretending that there isn't a problem? Might give you something to do with your time besides all that fake "laughing" about "comedy gold" that intelligent people realize are important issues.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
244. I'm not wailing or screaming. Howling? You fucking bet. Howling with laughter.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:08 AM
Aug 2015

My ribs are going to be sore tomorrow.

Thanks.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
246. My pleasure. I do the same thing every time I see the latest polls on the Dem rankings
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:11 AM
Aug 2015

Laugh my NATURAL ass off.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
278. Thanks for the link, Number23. I can't believe she was cornered and manhandled
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:23 AM
Aug 2015

I'd felt more than unsafe. I'd felt terrified!

Number23

(24,544 posts)
299. And what's even more telling is that her feeling unsafe around alleged "liberals" is cause for
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:20 AM
Aug 2015

some knee slapping "hilarity" from the very folks who should be castigating people who behave this way. Why should a black, female progressive activist at Netroots Nation be made to feel unsafe? And what kind of person would find that hilarious?

These people are a fucking trip, aren't they? But I guess they better get those heartfelt chuckles in now because I got a really sneaking suspicion they won't be laughing in a few months.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
337. I don't understand...it's just mind-boggling. What is funny, not just funny, but hilarious about
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:18 AM
Aug 2015

a woman being harassed and manhandled? Wow, just wow.

But you are right. There's no way that these people will prevail. Let's just hang in there. I believe that reason and sanity will prevail, and yes, they won't have anything to laugh about anymore.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
295. If by "attack" you mean a view of the abusive tactics of many Sanders supporters which is shared
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:13 AM
Aug 2015

by a slew of Democrats of all stripes including many Sanders supporters, then yeah. It is.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
334. I like most of them just fine. Most of them are awesome.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:22 AM
Aug 2015

So is Bernie. I do not like Hillary and may not vote in the primary. Bernie WAS my candidate and I agree with him on most things one hundered precent. Now, be nice to me and I'll vote for your guy. Otherwise I'll vote for the Dem nominee like always; Bernie or Hillary, I'll show up with fucking bells on. You want black votes for your guy? Listen to me. I know black people, It's my life.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
336. Thank you.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:12 AM
Aug 2015

Yes I did notice that and I believe I posted an excerp that I really appreciated in the African American group a day or so after that. I believe his message is improving, now others who support him can follow his lead. He knows what to do and deserves trust that he can bring his message to others.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
317. The OP is evidence. There have been at least four other articles posted WITHIN this OP that are
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:58 AM
Aug 2015

evidence of how abusive and bullying way too many Sanders supporters are. And not just on DU -- ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

Closing your eyes and pretending there's no problem might help you sleep a bit better for a spell but it ain't the smart thing to do.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
327. Well, it was't in your post
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:44 AM
Aug 2015

And there are definitely a lot of crazy Hillary supporters, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
433. You need to read the thread and the site. Maybe then you could educate yourself and stop labeling
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:20 PM
Aug 2015

things "attacks" when they're nothing but the truth.

And I'm not interested in your "But they're doing it too!!!1" crap. It's not Hillary supporters that have made spectacular asses out of themselves up and down the ENTIRE Internet over the past few months.

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
432. Absolutely this
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:55 PM
Aug 2015
That man needs to do an intervention. It reminds me of when John McCain had to stop one of his supporters in her tracks when she was calling Obama an "Arab" (like it was the worst, most horrible thing in the world) during one of his campaign appearances in 2008. After weeks and months of watching his supporters act like fools, McCain finally stepped up and tried to shut down at least one tiny sliver of the unhinged foolishness his supporters were unleashing on the world.


Yes, what we're seeing here is very much like that. Bernie needs to have a come to Jesus meeting with some of these folks. He should see some of his fans in action in this thread alone. They're turning people off in droves.

Excellent post.
 

Snotcicles

(9,089 posts)
113. I like this part of his article.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM
Aug 2015

Obama took a positive approach to his campaign, while Hillary supporters, who started pouty, whiny groups such as Party Unity Means Authority, better known as PUMA or 18 Million Voices, were forced to lick their wounds in second place, precisely because they were nasty.

PUMA was "Party Unity My Ass"
[link:http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/they-were-hillary-clintons-die-hard-loyalists-heres-where-they-are-now/2015/05/02/82025cf2-e92a-11e4-aae1-d642717d8afa_story.html|

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
114. The continued smell of desperation.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 10:59 PM
Aug 2015

This is so funny!

I just don't understand why the focus isn't on HRC and what she's doing.

Guess it just goes along with her weathervane outlook, her sucking money from billionaires and Banksters, roping off media, invitation only events...and it just goes on and on.

In the mean time Bernie has voters...lots of voters...and gains voters by the second...all by his honesty, integrity and authenticity.

I'll keep an ear open for her 50 state, 3,000+ meetings with 100,000+ people attending.

But she seems to be too busy with $2,700 per plate dinners and paying to have polls done.

Good luck...she's gonna need it.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
205. I can assure you, I'm not desperate
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:18 AM
Aug 2015

I appreciate the wishes of good luck for Hillary, I certainly realize your candidate needs it despite his supporters.

jalan48

(13,785 posts)
126. Bernie will speaking in Portland at the Coliseum for almost nothing.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:05 PM
Aug 2015

When Hillary appears in Portland it will be at a $2500 a plate dinner. Kind of hard to compromise on that kind of stuff. If pointing this out offends Hillary supporters I'm sorry. We see Hillary as part of a corrupt political system, yes, she's better than the Republicans, but that doesn't mean the corrupt system that will likely elect her is ok. It's what our political system has become that enrages us. Hillary supporters don't seem to care as long as she's the winner.

jalan48

(13,785 posts)
151. Enraged that Citizens United has turned this country into an oligarchy, and that
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:19 PM
Aug 2015

fellow Democrats don't seem to know or care. That's really the issue.

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
157. That's unfortunate because he needs to be fundraising if he's going to beat the Rethugs,
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:24 PM
Aug 2015

who have already been promised a billion dollars from the Koch brothers alone.

$2500 a plate dinners are penny ante compared to the Rethug donations. Hillary will have to do a lot of them if she's going to be competitive.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
145. I guess if the Hillaristas can't find anything else to bash Bernie with,
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:15 PM
Aug 2015

they have to bash the Sanderistas instead. Thats like beating the enemy's dog because you can't find the enemy to beat.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
154. That's pretty much all they've been doing here on DU
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:23 PM
Aug 2015

Not a single rebuttal I can find to an actual Bernie platform position...

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
161. Then you haven't been paying attention. Many have criticized his positions on gun control.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:27 PM
Aug 2015

He both voted against the Brady Bill, after Reagan was shot, and for the PLCAA, which overturned gun liability laws in all 50 states. He claims it is because he comes from a rural state, but his state has a higher rate of gun deaths than comparable states with stricter gun laws.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
172. There has been criticism of his gun control positions.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:44 PM
Aug 2015

And those seem warranted. Though like Hillary on many other things (I think -- since she intimates as much), his position on that has changed.

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
238. Thank you. I don't blame him for his previous positions on gun control. I just hope he reconsiders
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:59 AM
Aug 2015

them in light of the fact that he is running for President of the US, not Senator of Vermont.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
252. Hillary 2008 and guns
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:14 AM
Aug 2015

VALPARAISO, Indiana (CNN) - Hillary Clinton appealed to Second Amendment supporters on Saturday by hinting that she has some experience of her own pulling triggers.

“I disagree with Sen. Obama’s assertion that people in our country cling to guns and have certain attitudes about trade and immigration simply out of frustration,” she began, referring to the Obama comments on small-town Americans that set off a political tumult on Friday.

She then introduced a fond memory from her youth.

“You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said.

“You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter.”


Minutes later, in a slightly awkward moment, Clinton faced a question from a woman in the audience whose son had been paralyzed by a gunshot. The woman asked Clinton what she would do about gun control as president.

Clinton touted her husband's record on gun control during his administration, and said "there is not a contradiction between protecting Second Amendment rights" and the effort to reduce crime.

Noting that many hunters and gun collectors want to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals, Clinton referred to her positive childhood experiences with firearms.

"As I told you, my dad taught me how to shoot behind our cottage,” she said. “I have gone hunting. I am not a hunter. But I have gone hunting."

Clinton said she has hunted ducks.





Just the facts.

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
258. When it came time to vote on the PLCAA, Hillary voted against it and Bernie voted for it.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:36 AM
Aug 2015

Neither of them want to needlessly alienate 2nd Amendment voters, but her actual positions on gun control are to the left of his.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/07/surprise-hillary-clinton-left-senator-bernie-sanders.html

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
262. Now they are.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:48 AM
Aug 2015

I remember her giving that speech. It made looking it up a feat done in less than 30 seconds. And it was just as tactical as I remember. It was after Super Tuesday and all her messages to white voters of a certain persuasion.

She was sending another message, it is like she shape shifts depending on who is in front of her.

So we can use this speech as fact. It is a specific message she wanted to present.

Her new message is also tactical.

Support her, you like her--that's great.

But she has winked at the NRA supporters and told them a homey story that was the only story that could sound real coming from her.

This speech, along with many other maneuvers during that campaign sealed the deal for me.

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
271. I am committed to no one at this point, but I think her campaign is better organized and funded.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:12 AM
Aug 2015

I wish Bernie would reconsider his position on gun control, which is important to me.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
276. He's got an F rating from the NRA
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:20 AM
Aug 2015

And he's more liberal than her on every other issue, so whatever.

pnwmom

(108,914 posts)
288. They've turned against him for some reason. But he was with them on some critical votes.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:50 AM
Aug 2015

And I haven't heard him express any regrets about his vote for the NRA's beloved PCLAA, which most progressives were against.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
162. Bernie rebuts his own platform...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:30 PM
Aug 2015

Let's raise wages to $15.00... except for Bernie himself $10.10 an hour and you'll like it.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
174. Here...
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:47 PM
Aug 2015
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/07/27/sanders-touts-15-per-hour-wage-but-doesnt-pay-it

When Sen. Bernie Sanders unveiled legislation Wednesday to increase the minimum wage, he said: “We have got to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and we are introducing legislation today to do just that.”

The Vermont independent, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, followed up his statement with an email to campaign supporters. In it, he quoted Elizabeth from Ohio as saying, “I could afford to go back to work if minimum wage was $15. It costs my family less for me to stay home than to pay childcare and transportation costs to work for $9.50/hr.”

Those listening to Sanders and reading his email might readily have concluded that Sanders wants American workers to be getting at least $15 an hour now.

Not so. In fact, Sanders himself is paying some of his campaign workers less than $15 an hour. Full- and part-time interns on his campaign are making $10.10 an hour, Sanders spokesman Michael Briggs said. Some other staff members also appear to be making less than $15 an hour.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
177. So that's what you have -- he pays his interns $10 an hour
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:50 PM
Aug 2015

(while sponsoring a bill to raise minimum wage by 2020).

I suppose you have an additional link letting us know Hillary is paying her interns much more, right?

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
183. No link.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:57 PM
Aug 2015
THEY ALL NEED TO DO BETTER!

What the heck? How do people not get this?

We should ask our candidates to do more, and then to actually practice what they preach. People can get paid more going to work the registers at Costco then they can working for our candidates... that doesn't bug you? It doesn't bug you that our candidates can't even pay a livable wage?

Please, be principled here.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
189. But your candidate doesn't even pay her interns -- and the article mentions the health benefits are
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:07 AM
Aug 2015

...better than expected, for Bernie workers.

That said, yes, our candidates, we and our fellow DUers, our whole species -- can all do better. And time is running out to do otherwise.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
194. Then why post something that doesn't really show him contradicting his position?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:13 AM
Aug 2015

He has less money but is still paying interns where other candidates won't.

And better health benefits!

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
197. Because it clearly does contradict his postion and I find that frustrating.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 AM
Aug 2015

Do you not question the people you support? Do you not want them to be better than everyone else?

His campaign handed this talking point to Hillary (though I doubt she'd use it) and the RW clown car on a platter.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
206. I disagree, since she isn't paying interns
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:19 AM
Aug 2015

And that's not less than the current minimum wage (in fact, didn't the article say it was a bit more?)

And you keep refusing to acknowledge the better-than-expected health benefits.

If this is the only "talking point" that's been "handed" to Hillary -- well, then she doesn't have any talking points.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
218. So your reasoning is...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:27 AM
Aug 2015

It's okay that even though he talks about $15.00 wages he only pays $10.10 because Hillary pays nothing, so clearly what's that phrase I see so often?

Oh yes: "I will no longer vote for the lesser of two evils" and since she does it too that makes it okay.

And the on point #2 you've read in an article... "better-than-expected health benefits" yet have no definition of what that is, so while I acknowledge that yes it says that in the article it doesn't come close to defining it.

Meanwhile if I'm broke I'm going to get a job at Coscto:

At Costco, hourly workers make an average of more than $20 an hour — well above the national average of $11.39 for a retail sales worker — according to a 2013 Businessweek story. For employees who put in 40 hours per week, that works out to about $43,000 a year.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/costco-pays-retail-employees-20-an-hour-2014-10#ixzz3hd1uKVS9



Costco has one of the most competitive benefits packages in the industry. Not only do we provide our employees with a full spectrum of benefits, but employees also may elect coverage for their spouses, children and domestic partners. The company pays a larger percentage of the premiums than do most other retailers, and employee-paid premiums are withheld pre-tax, which means you get to keep more of your hard-earned money.

From safeguarding your health to planning for a secure future, you can put Costco's benefits to work for you.

U.S. BENEFIT-ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS ARE AS FOLLOWS:

Hourly employees (full-time) - are benefit-eligible on the first of the month after working 450 hours or 90 days, whichever comes first.
Hourly employees (part-time) - are benefit-eligible on the first of the month after working 600 hours or 180 days, whichever comes first.
Salaried employees - are benefit-eligible on the first of the month after date of hire.

HEALTH CARE

Full-time and part-time benefit-eligible Costco employees are offered generous health care coverage with low bi-weekly payroll contributions. Healthcare coverage includes medical, vision, prescription drug, hearing aid and behavioral health benefits.

DENTAL CARE

Full-time benefit-eligible Costco employees may choose from two different dental plans: a core dental plan and a premium dental plan. Part-time benefit-eligible employees may elect a core dental plan.

PHARMACY PROGRAM

Most Costco warehouses have pharmacies in-house, making it easy to pick up prescriptions at work. Benefit-eligible employees' co-payments can be as little as $3 for generic medications and a 15% co-pay applies to other types of medications.

VISION PROGRAM

Most Costco warehouses have in-house optical centers, which make it easy to access this benefit. For benefit-eligible employees and covered dependents, the program pays up to $60 toward a refraction eye exam and $175 for the purchase of prescription glasses and contact lenses.

401(k) PLAN

Created to help employees save for a comfortable retirement, Costco matches employee contributions 50 cents on the dollar for the first $1,000 each year to a maximum company match of $500 a year ($250 a year for West Coast Union employees). Once employees meet eligibility requirements, the company makes an annual contribution to their account, which is based on a percentage of eligible earnings. This percentage increases with employee's years of service.

DEPENDENT CARE ASSISTANCE PLAN

All Costco employees whose families qualify can take advantage of tax savings by enrolling in the Dependent Care Assistance Plan. This allows you to pay for day care for children under 13, as well as adult day care, with pre-tax dollars.

CARE NETWORK

This confidential, free resource program is completely separate from Costco and is available to all employees and their families from the very first day of employment. Care Network's professional counselors are dedicated to Costco employees and trained to help you resolve personal, work or family challenges. They also can provide guidance, information and/or referrals to local service providers, including lawyers, debt resolution services and behavioral health professionals, to help you address a number of different needs.

VOLUNTARY SHORT-TERM DISABILITY

Where disability coverage isn't mandated by their state, all hourly employees who pass their 90-day probationary period and are working at least 10 hours a week will be automatically enrolled in short-term disability insurance. This important coverage provides a tax-free income replacement benefit in case they are unable to perform their job due to a non-work related accident, illness or pregnancy.

LONG-TERM DISABILITY

Costco provides long-term disability coverage at no cost for benefit-eligible employees who are enrolled in a medical plan. This policy pays up to 60% of their earnings if they are out past 180 days.

LIFE INSURANCE

Benefit-eligible employees enrolled in a medical plan also receive basic life insurance and accidental death and dismemberment policies provided at no cost. The benefit amount is based on years of service and whether the employee is full or part-time. Employees also may elect to purchase supplemental coverage for themselves, their spouses or children.

EMPLOYEE STOCK PURCHASE PLAN

New employees are immediately eligible to enroll in this plan, which allows them to purchase Costco stock by payroll deduction. Not only does this plan avoid commissions and fees normally associated with the purchase of stock, it's another easy way to save for the future.

HEALTH CARE REIMBURSEMENT ACCOUNT

Benefit-eligible employees can arrange to have pre-tax contributions automatically deducted from their paychecks and placed into a Health Care Reimbursement Account. Being able to pay medical and dental bills, including co-pays and deductibles, with pre-tax money can reduce your taxable income each year.

LONG-TERM CARE INSURANCE

Designed to pay for nursing home care, Costco provides a basic policy for employees with 10 or more years of service. All benefit-eligible employees may purchase a basic policy or buy additional coverage in addition to the basic policy provided by Costco. In addition, their spouses, or their parents (in-law) or grandparents (in-law), and their siblings and children over the age of 18 are eligible to purchase Long Term Care Insurance.

http://www.costco.com/benefits.html


If I was broke I know what I would do, and who I would work for and Bernie Sanders just isn't competitive or living up to what he promises here. And hey those health benefits sure look "better-than-expected"...

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
264. Oh cut the bullshit.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:52 AM
Aug 2015

You don't support Sanders, and your protestations otherwise have gone from the sublime to ridiculous.

You want him to be 'better'. He is better. He pays his campaign staff. He pays above minimum wage. He supports $15.00 by 2020. He is walking his fucking talk.

But that is not good enough for you. Noooo. You will say he has to be better than everyone and then let Clinton off the hook.

Yeah, you really support the Sanders campaign.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
342. It is a principled AND rational stance.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:54 AM
Aug 2015

Look up some economics please. Look at the real history of wage increases and how it impacts real prices in any market. Read some on behavioral economics and how the human psyche deals with work, reward, and natural competition.

seaglass

(8,170 posts)
349. You are attempting to deflect. If Bernie had a principled stance he would be paying his staff a
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:17 AM
Aug 2015

minimum of $15/hr, it would not effect the greater economy, only those who work for him. And it would be the right thing to do.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
351. It is not deflection to describe the actual economic realities of a wage increase.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:22 AM
Aug 2015

Why he is doing what he is doing fits that reality as well as his stance on working us up to a $15.00 an hour minimum wage as well as the realities of a smaller and not as profitable of a campaign.

If we are discussing the 'right thing to do' then let's compare. A smaller campaign that pays several dollars higher than the current minimum wage by someone who is working tirelessly to not only raise the minimum wage but also correct other economic inequalities or a larger and infinitely wealthier campaign that still is using the unpaid interns financial trick which absolutely fits with that candidates overall neo-liberal economic policies where those at the top continue to benefit while those at the bottom do not. At least she is 'walking her talk' if people will open their eyes and see.

seaglass

(8,170 posts)
355. It is a deflection because we are talking about something Bernie could do to demonstrate his
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:28 AM
Aug 2015

commitment to a $15/hr wage even though it might be hard. It's OK, we will not agree on this. All candidates have their flaws, this is one of Bernie's.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
366. No it is not. This is not a flaw.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:08 AM
Aug 2015

It is being made to be one by opponents who want to ignore the actualities of the situation.

Those being paid $10.00 are interns for his campaign. His Senate interns get $12.00 when many don't get anything at all. Their jobs during a campaign season are temporary and will not last longer than a little over a year. Compared to every other campaign including Clinton's which do not pay interns at all, he is giving them this amount but also health benefits for the full time interns. What other staff he has are making significantly more than this, however, because his campaign is small as are its finances, he has a much smaller staff.

And his legislation does not call for $15.00 hour in 2015. It is a graduated process such that $15.00 is reached in 2020. By 2016, it would be $9.00. By 2017, it would be $10.50. So he is not only paying interns, which is rather unheard of, he is also paying them $2.00 more than the minimum wage. Interns are still in a position of learning as much as they are working. That is why there are so many issues with unpaid interns being basically slave labor. Sanders does not treat his interns in that way.

So he is walking his talk. This is inline with everything he says and is campaigning for. To try and make be a flaw is just specious bullshit.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
347. Is $10.10 a living wage?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:08 AM
Aug 2015

Is that enough to make it?

It's really interesting to see how quickly people principles go out the window.

I am a Sanders supporter, I've been one the whole time, I've actually voted for him before and got him elected to the Senate. It's so annoying to be told time and time again that I'm not one just because I question him... Questioning our politicians is not wrong its something we should do everyday.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
350. Question our politicians is fine.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:17 AM
Aug 2015

However, I ONLY see you questioning Sanders and not the other Democratic primary candidates. And you give Clinton a pass. Why is that?

The quicker we get a $15.00 minimum wage passed, the quicker the economic realities of a wage increase can be dealt with so that a living wage is possible.

I do know that $10.10 is a hell of a lot better than an unpaid intern.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
357. I don't support the other candidates!
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:42 AM
Aug 2015

And NONE of them are practicing what they preach, the one I want to do this the most is the guy I want to win.

Again you've made the argument that as long as it's better than the other candidates then it's okay... That is NOT the point of a livable wage, if that's was true Bernie could pay $7.50 that's still better than Hillary so it must be okay right? NO.

I want MY candidate to do better, I want him to be he best, and I want him to win. In order to do that he needs to deal with this issue, if it's posted here it's going to come as a bigger issue eventually.

What's holding him back? Does he really think $10.10 is livable?

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
362. No candidate is perfect.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:53 AM
Aug 2015

You must know that.

No one candidate will do it all better than all of the others.

I see no problems with his stance, this position, or anything else with regards to this issue.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
365. This is an incredibly important issue and as far as I can tell...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:07 AM
Aug 2015

central to Bernie's campaign. He can and should do better.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
367. He is doing better.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:09 AM
Aug 2015

Read my latest post to Seaglass. Stop pretending that he is not. He is miles ahead of all the other candidates on this issue, and he is walking his talk.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
369. No I mean better than $10.10...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:12 AM
Aug 2015

I'm not comparing him to another candidate, I'm asking if he thinks $10.10 is a livable wage? Does he?

When he pays it, it sure seems like he thinks it is.

Do you think $10.10 is livable?

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
392. You are asking the wrong question.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:17 AM
Aug 2015

Why?

Because interns are not standard workers. They are young students typically. They are not taking a short term campaign job to make money to pay their student loans, to save for a house, or to support a family. Hell, in almost all instances, interns do not get paid. They are taking these positions to support a campaign AND to learn about how campaigns work. Those employees that are in the position of working full time and this is the primary job only are getting much much more than the minimum wage.

As long as you continue to pretend that interns are equal to other types of employees and that this situation is no different than working at Walmart or McDonald's, then you can continue to feign moral outrage and some supposed hypocrisy.

If you accept the reality of the differences including context, then you will see that not only is Sanders far ahead of the curve, but he is indeed walking his talk. He is treating temporary, interns better than any other candidate in either party. Period.

Puglover

(16,380 posts)
370. No shit.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:17 AM
Aug 2015

Every time I read that codswallop I am happy I am not drinking coffee.

I support Sanders but every single post I make is attacking his supporters and designed to demoralize them. Or praising every move Hillary makes.

It just does not get any more bizarre. And that is the kindest thing I can say.,



Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
401. You mean when I say "I support Sanders but expect more"
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:53 AM
Aug 2015

You mean when I say "I am going to vote for him in the primary"...

What's ridiculous is that every time I say who I support I get TORN down by other supporters. It pretty much happens every time I do it.

What rediculous is the people who say the support things and then when it's proven its not happening, it ain't no thang.

Puglover

(16,380 posts)
404. I am not being snarky honestly.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:58 AM
Aug 2015

But speaking for myself when DOZENS of people comment on a behavior of mine or something I may be doing I do take the time to look at myself and consider the possibility that they might just have a point.

But that's just me.

Done here.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
411. So because people tell me I don't support Sanders...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:55 PM
Aug 2015

I shouldn't?

Ha, unfortunately for them I have more credibility than that.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
164. much less an actual certifiable Sanders supporter who can be identified
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:32 PM
Aug 2015

positively .. which means the entire thing can be easily fabricated,
using anonymous handles, you know, like on DU.

We all know Hill wouldn't personally do this intentionally, but who
knows what her "supporters" might do?

kacekwl

(6,986 posts)
166. I"m a Bernie supporter all the way
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:35 PM
Aug 2015

but also a firm believer of letting your record and policy positions speak for you . Nothing against pointing out how your position differs with the other candidate and what your strengths are. We should save the trashing for the party we want to defeat not tear our side apart completely. Fine line .

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
179. Who are these "self righteous assholes" you're talking about?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:53 PM
Aug 2015

Every Bernie Sanders supporter I've met doesn't seem to exhibit such traits. Are we supposed to be addressing them as an entity here on DU?

I don't get it. It's making a statement that is guaranteed to be a no-win, since the harm in your OP is sure come those supporting the one candidate who remains true to ideals. He talks frankly about the issues all the way down the line.

So, when another camp comes into the running, what in your eyes constitutes assholery behavior?

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
193. I must have missed when the HRC supports called Black Lives Matter a Koch conspiracy
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:12 AM
Aug 2015

and took to social media to try to discredit leftist activists working to stop an epidemic of police killings of people of color because they didn't stay in their place at Netroots. #redefineprogressive and #earnthisdamnvoteorlose arose in direct response to that type of behavior.

jalan48

(13,785 posts)
202. I'm sure there are people saying all kinds of things, on both sides.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:17 AM
Aug 2015

This thread is aimed at the Sanders supporters as a whole which seems a bit far fetched you know?

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
214. I believe it specifies not all but rather a significant presence
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:24 AM
Aug 2015

Enough to establish a clear impression and alienate voters.

Here it is:

To be fair, I’ve seen a few Clinton supporters do the same, but I think the ratio is about 10-to-1 in favor of Bernie, and since there are roughly five times as many Clinton supporters as Sanders supporters, in all, that

jalan48

(13,785 posts)
223. Well, I don't buy it personally.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:34 AM
Aug 2015

As I said above I think what is enraging we Sanders supporters is the fact that our political system is corrupt and Hillary and her followers don't seem to care. Former President Carter has referred to the US political system as a type of oligarchy bought by the highest bidders. Sanders seems to be the only one speaking about about it. Strong passions come out because of this. I wish Hillary had a bit more Elizabeth Warren in her and I think you'd see both of our camps a lot closer aligned.

Cha

(295,517 posts)
259. They weren't Hillary supporters but BS supporters who were so upset #BlackLivesMatter dared
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:37 AM
Aug 2015

to Protest @ NRN and interrupt Bernie.

They weren't Martin O'Malley supporters, either.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
263. and O'Malley was subject to the same protest
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:49 AM
Aug 2015

Yet somehow his supporters didn't decide to make it all about him (and them).

Cha

(295,517 posts)
266. Exactly, Martin O'Malley Supporters showed Class.. Too many BS supporters got ugly..
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:01 AM
Aug 2015

accusing Black Activists of being Koch plants.. really?

They're still referring to it on The Obama Diary.. Tweeting on Hillary's speech at the NULC

Nerdy Wonka ?@NerdyWonka
Hillary: "Anyone who asks for your vote should see things as they are, not as they want them to be"

Feel that SHADE, Bernie?
😂😂😂
3:03 AM - 31 Jul 2015

Nerdy Wonka ?@NerdyWonka

HRC: "Those of us who have not experienced racial inequities have a special burden. We need to practice some humility."

*Ahem* Bernie fans.

3:05 AM - 31 Jul 2015
32 32 Retweets
30 30 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2015/07/31/rise-and-shine-1068/

this site has had 30 million hits since October 2009.. they don't mess around. It's the Obama Coalition.. working together.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
402. I'm not sure who populates the site, Cha, after just visiting there...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:55 AM
Aug 2015

…but, this doesn't change your unfounded accusation as to the metrics on "too many BS supporters got ugly". As you put it, the Obama Diary site has had 30 million hits since Oct 2009 and "they don't mess around". So, then they are "working together" tells me that there are a lot of Obama centered politicos at this web site.

This explains NOTHING about the majority of Bernie Sanders supporters, which you have stated in the pejorative as "BS supporters". Nice...

Sometimes your acrid behavior here is worthy of pointing out. Especially when you quote something like, "those of us who have not experience racial inequities have a special burden." with a nod and wink to a group I am a part of, as "BS supporters".

I guess growing up in NYC as a Jewish immigrant might have been a little worse than my family's growing up in NYC as Italian immigrants. I have been passed along my ancestral tails that stemmed from their own inequities.

Do you not see that the majority of the historic Democratic supporters are very much you and me, regardless of our separate inequities?

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
181. Nope, not buying it.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:57 PM
Aug 2015

Starts with the 'pragmatic' angle and then falls on the Dean canard.

And then proceeds to the 'Bernie's shitty supporters' angle, complete with the obligatory Dean analogy, again.

This is nothing more than a recycled M$M hit piece, and a very transparent one at that.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
200. Yeah, I can folks are moving forward anyway
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:16 AM
Aug 2015

Now that they've thrown away the AA vote, they are working on alienating Hispanic voters. It's quite the strategy.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
352. Who has thrown away the African American vote?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:23 AM
Aug 2015

Certainly not Sanders.

You gave underscored my issue with the 'shitty supporters' bullshit.
Does one base a voting desicion on who is voting for a candidate or on what that candidate actually represents?
What I'm hearing from many in this thread is an insinuation that Clinton supporters, African Americans, and Hispanics will not vote for Sanders no matter what because....of a thin slice of Sanders 'supporters.' Really?
I know what the response is when the shoe is on the other foot: "so I guess you want Bush/Trump/Walker/the kkklown kkkar to win."

Again, this is another badly veiled M$M hit piece and some around here are gobbling it up.
It's pretty sad.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
182. Thing one.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 11:57 PM
Aug 2015

The Dean "scream" was manufactured by the M$M. Go watch the video for yourself. One downtick for credibility there. Returning to read the rest of the OP, probably tomorrow.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
316. Shooks knows damn well that "scream" was manufactured by Corporate Media.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:54 AM
Aug 2015

Links are shared down-thread as to just how credible this guy is. I had never heard of him, but evidently he has quite the online reputation, and it *ain't* pretty (incompetent, dishonest, manipulative, etc.).

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
196. This post will not achieve hundreds of recommendations.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 AM
Aug 2015

25 recommendations. I believe this is evidence that your logic is faulty.

Would you entertain the possibility that you might be wrong?

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
212. No post that doesn't exalt Sanders and his supporters
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 AM
Aug 2015

and vilify Hillary receives many recs here. That is a function of the composition of this site. I know this will come as a shock to you, but recs are not an indicator of truth. The views of the majority of DUers are no more than than their opinions, and this site is as far removed from the make up of America as a whole or the Democratic Party as could possibly exist.

There have been many articles making this same point, over and over again. But they are all wrong. In the meantime, Sanders supporters are managing to alienate entire segments of the population in record time. I would have thought that 5 point drop in the polls (over a 20 percent fall) in the course of a week following the post- Netroots onslaught might have told you something.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
232. And yet you waste a lot of time here
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:41 AM
Aug 2015

Slinging shit on Hillary ' s behalf. Must be some reason for that right?

 

captainarizona

(363 posts)
213. banned from bernie thread
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:24 AM
Aug 2015

I got banned from the bernie thread by simply saying he needs to attract minority democrat voters!

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
302. Yeah right. You don't have to make stuff up to kick it. They don't do that there.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:25 AM
Aug 2015

I'm not even banned. They give out warnings.

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
216. Progressive Unicorn Brigade? wow.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:26 AM
Aug 2015

never heard of Milt Shook. I guess he doesn't like lefties whoever he is.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
324. "Look! It’s A Bird! It’s A Plane! Oh wait… It’s Just Milt Shook"
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:20 AM
Aug 2015


There aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with all the idiotic, internecine Twitter wars.

Focus, people, focus!

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
311. "Milt Shook was caught lying many times during his usenet days."
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:42 AM
Aug 2015
Milt Shook’s analysis is ... “Jonah Goldberg level stupid."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139988818/Milt-Shook-Is-A-Documented-Moron


I'm not sure, but he may be related to or affiliated with that immasmartypants chick, Nancy LeTourneau (the "former" fundie Christian conservative and current "pragmatic progressive" who likes to lecture libruls). It's all divisive, Spandan-type garbage.

All three can kiss my tight white ass.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
330. "he may be related to or affiliated with that immasmartypants chick, Nancy LeTourneau"
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:49 AM
Aug 2015

I think you're on to something!



Scruffy1

(3,235 posts)
227. I've been called a lot of things, Progressive Unicorn Battalion is pretty good.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:38 AM
Aug 2015

This whole smarmy post is just pathetic to me. Sounds like something Fox noise would come up with. Just the jargon "hard left" was enough to tip me off. So someone is hoping Bernie supporters will ignore Hillary's flaws and play nice. I think I'll star a chapter of the progressive unicorn battalion. If we keep going the way we have been my grand kids are toast.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
239. Two hundred people going back and forth on DU is going to STOP Bernie Sanders?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:01 AM
Aug 2015

You ascribe an importance to DU that doesn't exist.

Man you guys post some of the funniest stuff... some of you should write for SNL; then maybe IT would be funny again.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
274. Nope...I ascribed to the idea that the Bernie supporters on DU are not the only ones....
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:16 AM
Aug 2015

And as it turns out, several separate sites indicated up thread are also noting the same behavioral patterns. DU Bernie supporters are not the only ones.

neverforget

(9,433 posts)
312. "Progressive Unity Brigade" "self righteous assholes"
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:47 AM
Aug 2015


And here's some high level projection: "Telling, or even implying, that everyone who doesn’t support Sanders is stupid and clueless and not a “real progressive” because they don’t get sexually aroused whenever they see a Sanders bumper sticker is not the way to win. Consider the plight of Hillary Clinton in 2008."

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
414. they're focused only on personality: therefore they can only believe that people only support
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:29 PM
Aug 2015

Sanders because he makes them wet the seat

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
321. PUMAs cost Hillary the 2008 primary? Seriously?
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:06 AM
Aug 2015

I guarangoddamntee that the vast majority of voters, including primary voters, had NEVER heard of PUMAs, let alone allowed their votes to be influenced by them. It's pretty fucking dumb to allow your vote to be influenced by a candidate's supporters. I mean, Milt Shook is a pro-Hillary asshole who just called me a PUB (adorable!), but that will have zero bearing on whether I vote for her. Jesus, people, I hope you take your votes more seriously.

Brilliant analysis as always, Milt!

“Milt Shook Is A Documented Moron”

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
419. Judging by the 40 recs, I'd say DU agrees.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:52 PM
Aug 2015

They try SO hard -- SmartyPants, Spandan, Milt, et al. -- and are ALWAYS run out of DU-Town on a rail. But BOGers, and a select few others, bring them back. Lather, rinse, repeat.

These bullshit OPs are good for one thing ----> . Actually, it's pretty sad that some think Shook offers up hard-hitting analysis.

"I'm a PUBBER, he's a PUBBER, she's a PUBBER, we're a PUBBER, wouldn't you like to be a PUBBER, too?!"

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
331. Uh whatever
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:50 AM
Aug 2015

It's an internet thing. Dean's followers did not sink him - perhaps it was the media's replaying of the infamous scream, perhaps it was something else - As I recall, personally I didn't like the fact that he sealed some of his records for an unprecedented 10 years just before leaving office to run for president. Just didn't sit well with me. At any rate, there is no evidence that his supporters did him in by being too fervent. Having fervent supporters is usually a good thing for a political candidate.

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
343. Seriously
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:03 AM
Aug 2015

Reading through this thread, you guys couldn't have demonstrated the point any better if you tried.

"Short bus?" Really?

Keep it up....

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
344. Anyone who votes for a candidate...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:03 AM
Aug 2015

based on their perception of supporters has some seriously fucked up priorities in my opinion.

I think Hillary will win because policy is not the priority for most voters, IMHO. That's not good, and it's why we'll continue ending up with third way for a long time to come.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
407. If you have the time, reading some of the posts upthread
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:11 PM
Aug 2015

may give you some insight into they pain and hurt being caused, and on going. It has been eye opening for me and something I could never have anticipated when I posted the blog.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
363. There is so much wrong with this missive
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:54 AM
Aug 2015

I'm going to answer it the same way I've answered all of the Blind Hillary supporters:

buy bye.

<flush>

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
364. The hypocrisy here is strong.
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:07 AM
Aug 2015
known on this blog as PUBs, or the Progressive Unicorn Brigade who think that whatever or whoever they support is wonderful and perfect and will make the entire world a great big rainbow full of singing and peace and all that crap. That part is fine; I have no problem with idealism. It’s a little sappy at times, but it’s harmless. What’s not harmless is that these followers have a tendency to belittle and smack down those who aren’t as enthusiastic as they are. They are preachy and whiny and they feel like the only way they can win is to tear down the other candidates running against them, which is the opposite of true.


Bernie Sanders could win the nomination, but not as long as his biggest and loudest supporters are self-righteous assholes.

This right here is a pretty ugly attack. And the OP directs it in a broadbrush attack right here of other DUers.

I honestly thought it was a DU phenomena. The over the top insulting, belittling, swarming any Hillary post.

Try to find a thread about Sanders that doesn't have the DU Hillary brigade swarming it to insult and belittle.

And while there is plenty of "outrage" about attacks on HRC, those same people outraged are attacking Sanders, and posting plenty of threads about Sanders in order to do so.

Hypocrisy.

See, here’s the thing people need to realize about primaries; they’re not actually elections. You’re not choosing the president; you’re choosing the Democrat best able to beat whichever Republican emerges from that Klown Kar.

1. Yes, they are.

2. I'm choosing the Democrat who would make the best president. We obviously have different priorities. Some are in it to lose by "winning" with a candidate who loses the issues for the party and the nation. I'm not. Politics, including elections, are not about political parties for me. They are about issues. You win on issues when you nominate and elect a candidate who will hold his or her ground, giving up nothing and working to take steps forward.

3. Clinton and Sanders can both handle the Klown Kar; Sanders can probably do a better job, since he is NOT polarizing and pulls in many blocks of voters who generally don't vote or don't vote for Democrats.

It looks like some Clinton backers, recognizing that their candidate IS polarizing, are going to polarize Sanders supporters as a block in their efforts to shove us back under the bus or purge us.

Hypocrisy squared.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
374. I disagree with some things here, but the main one is.."
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:37 AM
Aug 2015

You’re not choosing the president; you’re choosing the Democrat best able to beat whichever Republican emerges from that Klown Kar."

The entire point of the entire Bernie movement is that the Democrats for to long have been going around just putting up candidates that are only there "to try and beat the Republicans." That's not what we are saying. We are saying that YES we are picking the person we believe is best suited to run the country with the interests of the population and not of Wall Street and theirs big money donors.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
405. If you aren't thinking about beating the Republicans....
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:00 PM
Aug 2015

you are doing American electoral politics wrong. Noble defeats are still defeats.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
448. This is true...
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 03:10 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 07:13 PM - Edit history (1)

I tend to be to idealist, but this is our primary. Whomever the Dems decide to put up I will inevitably support, but until then I'll can see no reason to not support Bernie of Hilary. I also think that the Dems are scared of Bernie themselves. Just look at Chris Matthews completely unfair evaluation of what a Democratic Socialist really is....For shame Chris. The powers that be do not want the true voice of the people heard, or they would all be talking like Bernie.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
415. plus that argument makes sense only with candidates whose rhetoric attracts listeners
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:37 PM
Aug 2015

instead of having to dragline press along with a rope, pretending to have a "small crowd strategy," and has to have all the decks in the party stacked in her favor

ion_theory

(235 posts)
449. Plus his "small crowd strategy" basically means ACTUAL AMERICANS, and not there donors interests.
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 03:13 PM
Aug 2015

Actually I take that back, Bernie is only listening to the people donating to him.....average citizens.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
412. "All Democrats are on the same team." Total bullshit...
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:55 PM
Aug 2015

That's the old "divide and conquer" tactic that keeps corporations in charge of the gov't and the people from having any power.

It's not Dems vs Repukes - it's the people vs corporations and their puppets in both parties.

Gothmog

(143,630 posts)
421. A Sanders supporter told me that I was a bad parent for being the father of two daughters
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:00 PM
Aug 2015

A Sanders supporter attacked me and called me a bad father because I am the father of two daughters who are voting for Hillary Clinton. There was no logic to this attack but to this poster you are a bad parent if you and your children are voting for Clinton

Vinca

(50,150 posts)
430. If you swapped the names in your post,
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:53 PM
Aug 2015

Bernie for Hillary and Hillary for Bernie, it would sound more like what's been happening. Sadly, DU is like this during the primaries. I remember being battered and abused as an Obama supporter. Now I'm battered and abused as a Bernie supporter. In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

Response to Sheepshank (Original post)

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
439. It would appear you posted without reading the blog all the way through or the thread
Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:51 PM
Aug 2015

The interesting thing is that there are several sites outside of DU that are saying the same thing ......there have been links.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
450. Yeah.....these people
Mon Aug 3, 2015, 03:14 PM
Aug 2015

Awful, vile, elitists.

Yuck

?t=117





Do I have to put the sarcasm smilie in the post?
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