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Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:03 PM

 

I Would Like To Put A Question Forward... How Does One Legislate Social Justice ???

And I'm in earnest here... because unless I'm missing something... I don't have a clue.

Using the mechanisms of government, you can foist new laws and paradigms on people, but you cannot legislate their Hearts and minds.

We fought a Civil War, had Jim Crow... and have the current racism we see still continuing today.

Brown vs. Board of Education and all the rest could alleviate some of the pain, but it could not eliminate the cancer of Racism.

Maybe that's why Bernie keeps going to the well of Economic Justice... I don't know.

But what exactly is Hillary Clinton... AS A POLICY MATTER... A MATTER OF LAW... proposing ?

Again... I really do not know.

Hate Crimes ???



Any help would be appreciated.



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Reply I Would Like To Put A Question Forward... How Does One Legislate Social Justice ??? (Original post)
WillyT Aug 2015 OP
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #1
WillyT Aug 2015 #2
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #13
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #3
WillyT Aug 2015 #5
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #9
mythology Aug 2015 #10
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #11
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #12
Sancho Aug 2015 #79
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #89
aspirant Aug 2015 #105
Sancho Aug 2015 #108
aspirant Aug 2015 #121
Sancho Aug 2015 #134
aspirant Aug 2015 #136
Sancho Aug 2015 #137
aspirant Aug 2015 #138
Sancho Aug 2015 #139
aspirant Aug 2015 #140
Sancho Aug 2015 #144
aspirant Aug 2015 #145
jwirr Aug 2015 #143
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #14
uponit7771 Aug 2015 #52
aspirant Aug 2015 #106
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #124
aspirant Aug 2015 #126
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #142
aspirant Aug 2015 #148
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #149
Prism Aug 2015 #4
WillyT Aug 2015 #6
procon Aug 2015 #7
aspirant Aug 2015 #107
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #8
bravenak Aug 2015 #15
Aerows Aug 2015 #18
bravenak Aug 2015 #19
Aerows Aug 2015 #20
bravenak Aug 2015 #21
Aerows Aug 2015 #22
bravenak Aug 2015 #23
Aerows Aug 2015 #24
bravenak Aug 2015 #26
Aerows Aug 2015 #29
bravenak Aug 2015 #33
Aerows Aug 2015 #34
bravenak Aug 2015 #35
Aerows Aug 2015 #37
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
bravenak Aug 2015 #38
Aerows Aug 2015 #42
bravenak Aug 2015 #44
Aerows Aug 2015 #47
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #49
bravenak Aug 2015 #50
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #57
bravenak Aug 2015 #96
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #97
bravenak Aug 2015 #98
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #99
bravenak Aug 2015 #100
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #109
bravenak Aug 2015 #110
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #113
bravenak Aug 2015 #114
aspirant Aug 2015 #111
bravenak Aug 2015 #118
aspirant Aug 2015 #123
bravenak Aug 2015 #127
aspirant Aug 2015 #130
bravenak Aug 2015 #132
aspirant Aug 2015 #133
bravenak Aug 2015 #135
jwirr Aug 2015 #146
uponit7771 Aug 2015 #53
aspirant Aug 2015 #112
bravenak Aug 2015 #119
aspirant Aug 2015 #122
bravenak Aug 2015 #128
WillyT Aug 2015 #68
bravenak Aug 2015 #94
Aerows Aug 2015 #17
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #70
Aerows Aug 2015 #76
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #80
Aerows Aug 2015 #83
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #85
Aerows Aug 2015 #87
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #92
Aerows Aug 2015 #95
aspirant Aug 2015 #115
Aerows Aug 2015 #120
aspirant Aug 2015 #125
WillyT Aug 2015 #131
WillyT Aug 2015 #71
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #73
aspirant Aug 2015 #116
kenfrequed Aug 2015 #65
aspirant Aug 2015 #117
Zorra Aug 2015 #129
Aerows Aug 2015 #16
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #25
NCTraveler Aug 2015 #59
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #62
NCTraveler Aug 2015 #64
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #66
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #90
Scootaloo Aug 2015 #93
jeepers Aug 2015 #27
JI7 Aug 2015 #28
jeepers Aug 2015 #36
bravenak Aug 2015 #39
JI7 Aug 2015 #43
bravenak Aug 2015 #45
JI7 Aug 2015 #48
jeepers Aug 2015 #51
uponit7771 Aug 2015 #55
jeepers Aug 2015 #46
bravenak Aug 2015 #104
jwirr Aug 2015 #147
JI7 Aug 2015 #40
uponit7771 Aug 2015 #54
HooptieWagon Aug 2015 #30
JI7 Aug 2015 #31
Maedhros Aug 2015 #32
Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #41
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #72
Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #75
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #77
Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #86
Maedhros Aug 2015 #88
NCTraveler Aug 2015 #56
Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #61
WillyT Aug 2015 #63
Adrahil Aug 2015 #58
BOSNYCDC Aug 2015 #60
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #67
BOSNYCDC Aug 2015 #69
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #74
ismnotwasm Aug 2015 #78
DonCoquixote Aug 2015 #81
Sheepshank Aug 2015 #84
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2015 #82
AOR Aug 2015 #103
Corruption Inc Aug 2015 #91
cantbeserious Aug 2015 #101
guillaumeb Aug 2015 #102
raouldukelives Aug 2015 #141

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:05 PM

1. Well even using the microphone of the presidency

Can be powerful.

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Response to ibegurpard (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:12 PM

2. Great Point !!! - The Bully Pulpit Can Be Quite Powerful...

 

But what law could one pass ???


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Response to WillyT (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:32 PM

13. The bully pulpit used public opinion and it works only if the other side

gives a fuck about public opinion.


Republicans don't care because hyperpartisanship immunizes them from the opinion.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:18 PM

3. Pass legislation, and use the justice deoartment

To prosecute those who fail to follow them.


Legislation sets up standards. Leave morality to individuals.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:46 PM

5. When Was The Last Time That Happened ???

 


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Response to WillyT (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:34 PM

9. Off the top of my head:

The voting rights acts, medicare & medicaid?

Social security? Expanding social security?

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:51 PM

10. I would argue that it also happened when we dialed back the sentencing disparities

 

between crack and powder cocaine. I think it also happens when cops wear body cameras. It happens when states like Illinois stop using the death penalty. It happens when states and cities approve higher minimum wages.

These are relatively smaller gains than the voting rights act, but they are still gains. Yes obviously particularly body cameras are a work in progress as the ass in Cincinnati shows, but that guy is likely to spend at least a significant portion of the rest of his life in jail. Eventually that will have an impact in saving the lives of others.

Yes a higher minimum wage is primarily economic justice, but it intertwines with social justice in that people with higher incomes have lower incidences of crime, their kids are more likely to finish school/go to college, they are more likely to be able to do the things those of us higher on the income scale can take for granted.

Our system is set up to be slow, but it does eventually start to work as more people are persuaded that social justice does matter.

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Response to mythology (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:08 PM

11. Good points. NYS and Maryland both have banished the DP.

But yes, you are correct that this can happen on state and local levels as well.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:29 PM

12. Yes. this is right

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:42 PM

79. I would include..

Special Education (PL94-142)
Disability Act
Title IX
Women's right to vote
18 year old vote
Peace Corps
Americorps
FMLA
Almost passed the Equal Rights Amendment

just off the top of my head...

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Response to Sancho (Reply #79)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:17 PM

89. Excellent additions!

thanks for adding that!

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Response to Sancho (Reply #79)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:04 PM

105. Does racism still exist?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #105)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:11 PM

108. That has nothing to do with the OP...how do you legislate social justice....

there are many, many examples of legislation aimed at social justice, and Bernie is wrong because many of those acts do not have anything to do economic justice or Wall Street.

Racism is changing, just like LGBT attitudes. We don't have Jim Crow laws anymore. Blacks can marry whites where it used to be illegal.

Is the world perfect? No. Can legislation make a difference? Yes.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #108)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:08 PM

121. "Bernie is wrong" has nothing to do with this OP

Again, does your Social justice list fix racism or is more needed?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #121)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 03:18 AM

134. It seems silly to ask if more is needed to address social justice?

Of course there are are many targets, including racism that are part of an ongoing struggle. In a political forum about candidates, differences are inherent in the OP, or else it should be posted elsewhere.

One of the weaknesses of the "socialist" approach to improving life for Americans is an over reliance on economic changes with a hope it will fix other problems. It's sort of a reverse trickle down approach. I would prefer a broader view that focuses on everyone's equal right to participate (citizenship, voting, education, protected status, etc.). I think the economic problems are just one part of the puzzle that is hard to legislate, and sometimes overlooks more important issues.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #134)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 04:11 AM

136. "It seems silly" to present a list that allows racism to still exist

"One of the weaknesses of the "socialist" approach" with social justice legislation is that it doesn't work w/o economic justice.

"It's sort of a" real "trickle down approach" where some of the 99% still live in cardboard boxes.

Will your broader view cure racism?

So you are against economic justice for the AA community with a governmental Reparations program? Also against any economic government assistance programs with no racial or ethnic bias?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #136)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 07:20 AM

137. Who said that social justice does not change economics...

your logic is faulty. I did NOT say I was against economic justice for the AA community, or against government programs such as affirmative action or government assistance.

For example of an "ethnic basis", notice that NY and Maryland have tuition equity, so that an undocumented person (perhaps brought to the US as child), goes to HS and pays regular tuition to a state university. In Vermont, for example, they would be DISCRIMINATED against and have to pay out-of-state tuition therefore preventing them from the same ECONOMIC opportunity to an education. Maybe the legislative delegation from Vermont should do something about that!!! Do you know who to write and call to complain?

Martin and Hillary represented states that fixed that problem for example. Hillary first proposed a path to citizenship, eliminating barriers to voting (like automatic registration of everyone), salary transparency so that woman were paid equally, and the list goes on. Those are ideas that would be consistent with social justice, and also have an economic effect.

Yes, the broader social justice view works when it is turned into effective legislation. I believe that we elected an African American President for example!. The effect of social justice reforms in the last half of the 20th century made that possible. Other reforms like Title IX and various women's rights will make it possible to see the US with it's first woman President.

There is no "cure" for racism, discrimination, or bias; but there are certainly ways that legislation can make lives better and reduce systemic or organized racism.

Economics is a subset of social justice. Economic justice is not effective legislation with it comes to social justice. There may be some small effect if you put Wall Street CEOs in jail or passed a Robin Hood tax, or even paid reparations, but overall it would not be useful compared to giving 30 million people a path to citizenship, ensuring the right to vote for everyone, and providing equal opportunities for education starting with daycare, preschool, and kindergarten.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #137)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 09:08 AM

138. economic justice parallels social justice

"Clinton said. "By that I mean, there are some who say, 'Well racism is a result of economic inequality.' I don't believe that." So now you disagree with Hillary because you believe that economic AA Reparations and economic Govt racially and ethnically un-biased assistance programs help economic inequality and you are for them. Please inform Hillary as soon as possible.

"There is no "cure" for racism, discrimination, or bias" When will you and Hillary inform the AA community of this startling statement?

"economic justice is not effective legislation with it comes to social justice" Did you just flip-flop in the same post? Are you now against AA Reparations and govt economic un-biased assistance programs because they're not effective against racism?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #138)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 09:43 AM

139. You are simply wrong and you should study social justice...

Economics is clearly no more than a subset of social justice. There is no "cure" for racism like taking a pill or performing an operation.

Clinton correct. Racism is not a result of economic inequality. You also need to take a class in logic, because you continue to create false premises. None of the Democrats are against bank regulations or practical financial reform. That will have little effect on systematic social justice though.

Economic reforms by themselves have proven to be ineffective or inconsequential for social justice (and I gave you examples) for the most part. OTOH, socially driven legislation has made lasting changes in both the social and economic well-being of people in the US.
Hillary clearly believes in social justice, and her record over many years is solid.

Just like all legislation in the last hundred years, some laws have had unintended consequences, critics, and reformers. Jeb wants to privatize SS, some repubs want to do away with the Planned Parenthood. Those are social programs that target social justice, and they have economic and racial effects as part of their impact. Hillary was the first to recognize and speak out about planned parenthood, and also go after Jeb over his attacks on SS.

A new Glass-Steagall Act (proposed by Bernie) would have very little social impact on undocumented workers, the AA community, or even a large part of the working folks. There was growing economic inequality before the original G-S, and it was made worse after the repeal of G-S, but most people are still barely affected by the differences between G-S and the new Dodd-Frank legislation that replaced it.

Here a link to get you started:

http://gjs.appstate.edu/social-justice-and-human-rights/what-social-justice

What is social justice?

Social justice is defined as "... promoting a just society by challenging injustice and valuing diversity." It exists when "all people share a common humanity and therefore have a right to equitable treatment, support for their human rights, and a fair allocation of community resources." In conditions of social justice, people are "not be discriminated against, nor their welfare and well-being constrained or prejudiced on the basis of gender, sexuality, religion, political affiliations, age, race, belief, disability, location, social class, socioeconomic circumstances, or other characteristic of background or group membership" (Toowoomba Catholic Education, 2006).

Social justice is generally equated with the notion of equality or equal opportunity in society. Although equality is undeniably part of social justice, the meaning of social justice is actually much broader (Scherlen and Robinson, 2008). Further, "equal opportunity" and similar phrases such as "personal responsibility" have been used to diminish the prospective for realizing social justice by justifying enormous inequalities in modern society (Berry, 2005). The most recent theories of and scholarly statements about social justice illustrate the complex nature of the concept.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #139)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 10:21 AM

140. Your opinions aren't facts,

try understanding the difference between your fantasy and reality worlds because your not impressing me

When are you and Hillary going to inform the AA community that racism has no cure (eradicating from society), that they will suffer from racism for eternity?

Economic inequality: Are you for or against economic AA Reparations and govt non-racially biased assistance programs? Would these programs be worthless in your mind or do we tell the children this is just a subset?

If you and Hillary are against economic equality because it doesn't work, when will Hillary be proposing the elimination of all assistance programs? When you have social programs w/o funding, you have nothing.

SS "are social programs that target social justice" and the money(economic) is just an insignificant, dinky little subset. How does the social program allow seniors to survive w/o money?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #140)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:05 PM

144. Actually, what I'm posting is based on empirical evidence (facts)...

There is less racism today than existed with slavery during the civil war. There is less systematic racism today than there was in the 1950's. There is still racism. If the government, in parallel with other social forces, continue to make changes then we may reach a point where racism is very rare and mostly not tolerated by either the laws or people in general. We obviously haven't reached that point yet, and the BLM movement is a reaction to the fact that things are not good enough yet. It's real, and something that needs attention by our laws along with other institutions in society (churches, corporations, etc.).

There is nothing wrong with economic programming that attempt to correct many issues in society - unemployment, re-education, etc., etc. None of the Democratic candidates would eliminate supports, and most would propose various new programs or increases. Hillary is correct that NO economic support will have a substantial effect on social injustice in America. For example, reparations or minimum wages won't affect 30 million undocumented workers who aren't citizens. Also, free tuition won't do a bit of good for black students at premier state colleges like U. Florida and U. Texas because they admit about 95% white students if you eliminate athletes. Only SOCIAL changes that come as a result of SOCIALLY JUST laws will make a change in systemic injustice.

As to your last point - I happen to be an older person - and more legislation that would target age discrimination would be welcome!!! Then SS would be less important. SS was never intended to allow seniors to survive, but it is VERY important to many working people. In fact, it is one of the most important programs the government has ever enacted. SS was not intended to create economic "equity", but it was intended to provide a safety net for starving older votes. SS does a good job as it was planned to do.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #144)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:41 PM

145. Opinions, opinions and more opinions

How many people were racists and in the 1950's what is the number and names now?

Specifically, what additional social changes w/o economic funding would eliminate Racism for the RACES (Black, White, Amerindian, Asian and Mixed groups). Remember that Hispanics are an Ethnic group.

If "Hillary is correct that NO economic support" will fix racism, it's time you and her let the people know that the both of you oppose AA Reparations and want to eliminate assistance programs to all ethnic and racial populations.

Show me the Data that U Texas and U Florida will never ever increase Black racial enrollment.

SS a racially unbiased social and economic program and w/o the money the program doesn't exist

"SS was never intended to allow seniors to survive, but it is VERY important to many working people." WHAT, when can we expect Hillary to use this in stump speeches?

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 03:48 PM

143. The question is about what laws we could pass regarding social justice. You suggest voting rights

acts and that is good - we need that bill made stronger than the first voting rights act and we need it to cover more states than it did. Another one is the bill that is in congress regarding a voting day holiday. Doing something about gerrymandering would help but I don't think we can do that. Likewise voter ID issues are states issues. We would need to make laws in each state.

However, all the other laws you suggested are economic justice laws dealing with economic issues.

The biggest social justice issue we are dealing with right now is police violence and mass incarcerations. Here there are things that the feds could UNdo to make a difference. They could stop the militarization of the police and repeal the tough on crime laws made in the 90s that have caused mass incarceration. They could also end the useless war on drugs. We not only need to make new laws we need to get rid of some.

As to making policy changes - can we make laws at the federal level that would disallow targeting by racial profiling and excess enforcement of the types of pithy little crimes that black people have been losing their lives for such as a broken taillight, jaywalking, selling cigs our of their own pack, running, looking at a toy gun in WalMart, playing with a toy gun in the park, etc.

But all of these issues stem from attitudes toward POC. What kind of law can we make that will change that? That is the problem this OP is asking about. In the Civil Rights movement MLK used religious laws to back his attack on attitudes. He challenged hate for what it was - a sin. The closest we have come to a law regarding this is a hate crime but it is so narrowly defined that it does not touch the situation we see today. I honestly do not know how we get at the answer to this question. First we will have to recognize how we are part of it and let the change start with us. But then where?

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Response to WillyT (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 10:36 PM

14. The ACA is also evidence of this...

it needs work, but it has improved the healthcare system, which is a social justice issue. Peopl of Color and other minorities are the among the poorly served before the ACA.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:25 AM

52. +1

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:06 PM

106. Is it economic justice too?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #106)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:23 PM

124. economic justice and social justice are two separate issues

Racism is not an economic issue.

The ACA improved the lives of people of color but did not address any aspect of racism, including white privilege.

I am tired of seeing these two important issues treated as the same thing.

No economic fix will solve both problems, and solutions to social justice will not solve economic justice issues.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #124)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:46 PM

126. "Racism is not an economic issue"

Last edited Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Therefore you are against the AA community receiving a govt Reparation program or any govt assistance program for minorities?

Do you believe racism exists in the Black, White, Asian, Native American and Mixed race communities?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #126)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:49 PM

142. Reparations are required, but do not solve the sociatal issues.

It does not stop the police from killing POP, it does not fix discrimination on the workplace, or the courts.

Giving them a check foes not give them equal rights.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #142)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:57 PM

148. Good, than you and Hillary

are for economic justice, AA reparations and expanding SS and expanding all assistance programs in parallel with and interdependent on social programs.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #148)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 06:44 PM

149. I don't support Clinton, and don't know what she thinks.

Equating Economic Justice and Social Justice is absolutely wrong because they are not the same.

Reparations, again, will not solve the problem with racism.

We need legislation, a good justice department, and a Supreme Court to deal with direct racism and White Privilege.

I don't make assumptions, do you support legislation to deal with rampant racism and to create an equal playing field so that overt racism and White Privilege is ended?

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:24 PM

4. Protect enfranchisement

 

And you can use the trifecta to accomplish it. The DoJ in the executive. New voting rights legislation in Congress. Protection of current voting rights with the right Supreme Court nominations.

Many problems in our country aren't because we don't have the right laws. Many of them exist and proliferate because there isn't vigorous enforcement. A President's will has quite a bit to do with that.

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Response to Prism (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:04 PM

6. I Agree... But I'm Trying To Take It To The Simplest Equation...

 

WHAT... do they propose ???

I've got bupkiss so far.


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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:19 PM

7. Aren't those things on her website?

I can't tell if you're just being facetious, and this probably won't be useful in that case, but I checked back at Clinton's website just yesterday and there are several issues up that would fall under a Social Justice heading.

Going forward, there are many positive results from legislation that has effectively changed the hearts and minds in our society, sometimes by dragging and screaming, but often as a reflection of our maturing views, and we are definitely not in the same frame of mind as we were is the past. Maybe it's not always as effective as it could be, and there are notable regional resistance, but even that is getting better as proved by the recent fall of the confederate flag. We can always do better and maybe its time to update and revamp the laws to impress those diehard hold outs that the law applies to them as well.

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Response to procon (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:11 PM

107. Which specific social justice laws would fix racism?

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 09:26 PM

8. First, tell me how you legislate economic justice?

 

What are your specifics? A law that says 'No more income inequality allowed'?

Second, why and in what ways would the methods for legislating a more just society differ when the form of justice is 'economic' and 'social'? Why, and in what ways.

Third and perhaps most importantly, I'd like to know why you use the word 'foist'. Your quote "you can foist new laws and paradigms on people, but you cannot legislate their Hearts and minds."

Definition of 'foist': to force someone to accept (something that is not good or not wanted)


So what you are saying is that any law which fosters social equity is 'not good or not wanted'. And you object to that. While pretending you can't think of a single example of social justice created by the law.


Foist, he says about Civil Rights, you have foisted this equality upon us, it is not good, it is not wanted.


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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:02 AM

15. +1

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #15)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:22 AM

18. This is crazy

 

Please point to direct quotes where he said any of the above claimed by the person in this subthread. Whom I like, btw, but I am in a difference of opinion with on this one.



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Response to Aerows (Reply #18)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:32 AM

19. I will explain.

 

WillYT, he has for months been posting op after op on how economic justice will solve racism and how racism is a direct result of economic injustice. This is a running issue. From time to time when he posts those lies, BNW comes in here and ask why he thinks that, and rarely to never recieves a reply.
Racism is not caused my poverty. The poverty is a direct resulty of American racism. We went from slavery to jim crow to this new jim crow and the only thing that has never changed is our skin color and American racism. Our rich suffer racism, our poor suffer, our children suffer it in school. They say money will fix that. Money did not help the Jews, imo. It made them a bigger target of racism.

When people say these academic lofty thing about money as the fix, thry are lying and don't even realize it. Because money will fix their problems, not ours. It is a selfish outlook and lazy as hell. Why should blacks be millionaires to fight something you never have to fight. Racism here stems fromsoavery and the dehumanizing of black people as a group in our society. We have done nothing to fix it. Money is not the fix. I'd rather be dead fucking broke than to be TREATED black. There is a disconnect that will not be fixed until some too smart dor their isn good liberals listen and respect the views of AA's. They have to believe we know more about racism than they do, no matter HOW many books they read. We live that life. They don't. A pocket full of gold won't stop a racist cop.

And yes, the use of the word foist stood out to me too. I should have the same rights. We need new civil right legislation.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:43 AM

20. All good points

 

-BUT- (sorry I have a big ole but here) lifting people out of poverty is an important step to improving education, opportunities and creating a strong healthy populace.

You can't learn if you are drowning in poverty to the point where you are a child with no books at home.

You *cannot* tell me that lifting minimum wage to $15/hour would not help folks trying to raise their family.

Since I am not black, you know more about the situation of African Americans than I do.

What I do think is that raising wages to the point where people can actually get by on is imperative.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:51 AM

21. Yes. Lifting them out of poverty is integral.

 

But that is true of everybody.

But when as a black oerson you are more likely to go to jail, you don't get that 15 bucks an hour, then you won't get hired. All of the economic gains are limited by the terrible social justice issues we have. Our portion will not be fair since our mother are more likely to be raising us singly since our fathers are in jail. We pay more traffic fines and fees because cops follow us to get us to make a mistake. Every portion of our lives has a dark shadow. So when they say that money will solve it, we say we won't even get our fair share of the money. We never do. In order for us to fully participate, we need legislation addressing the sentencing duspartties, they way we are followed and harassed, addressing the fact the forty percent if prisoners are black, addressing the all white juries and judges and prosecutors. If we don't get that first, we won't get our full share. Because there are so many ways to leave so many of us out.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #21)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:00 AM

22. African Americans getting locked up

 

or worse, being executed in the street is a mountain I don't know how to move.

I absolutely agree that we are locking decent human beings up for things that aren't even crimes and harm no one is WAY disproportionally geared toward African Americans.

What do we do about it? You are a great person, BravenAK. The world would be very much lessened if you got stowed away in prison or executed in the street. The fact that you even have to worry about that, or that your children will have that fate is a bone-deep sorrow.

You have done quite a bit to elevate the discussion on racism here, and for that, I am grateful. I'm also depressed because if I stay in my little white bubble, I don't have to see it. Didn't see it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #22)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:05 AM

23. We need legislation and to end the drug war.

 

Move that money into drug treatment and helping addicts get back on their feet. We need to primary liberal drug warriors and tell them why. We need legislation making it a criminal offense to profile and target people. We need voting rights restore immediately upon release from prison. We need diversion programs where we train and pay drug offenders to work on our infrastructure. Or make them Bankers, they'll be more honest than the ones we have.

We need to get loud and talk about race to people who never have to talk about it. We need to reduce sentences and we need to end private prisons with legislation. And we need to get on juries.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:09 AM

24. ^ THIS!!!! ^

 

I absolutely agree. I will admit, I'm kind of socially awkward at times, so I'm not sure how I could talk to people about race. I'm pretty much the poster child for white female.

What I can do is start lobbying to have our damn schools have enough money so that there isn't a child in this country that doesn't have books.

That disturbs the shit out of me.

I do volunteer, and I've built computers for impoverished kids in the area. I'm not well suited, though, for front line confrontation

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Response to Aerows (Reply #24)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:17 AM

26. Don't worry. I'll do the confrontations. I was MADE for yelling and standing on chairs.

 

Taking cares of the children are just as important. I remember when I finally got to a school with a good library. I soent the next two yers reading every single book one by one. Even nancy drew and the hardy boys. Love book. During tough time I depended on them for survival.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:24 AM

29. <--- was not made to stand on chairs and yell

 

I'm a behind the scenes sort.

My house could pass as a library. That or a server room. It suits me just fine, though.

I did run 3 miles today, though, in preparation for a 5K run I'm nerdy, but not *all* nerdy.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #29)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:31 AM

33. 3 damn miles? Jesus. I'd be dead.

 

I exercise my MOUTH more than anything else.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #33)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:36 AM

34. You would be surprised

 

the things you get up to when you quit smoking. I've resorted to running to keep from throttling irritating people. I have plenty of people that fall into that category. I can run, and then come back into a situation and have a much calmed temper, and it carries over in the day.

Also:

Quit smoking - become a lunatic for a while as you come off of them.

That said, I'm GLAD I made it this far, and a 5K is a fun run. I'm not training to win, just to finish and enjoy it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #34)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:41 AM

35. I know I need to quit. But they comfort me when people piss me off. Which is constantly.

 

But I do wanna get back in better shape.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #35)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:48 AM

37. Quitting smoking doesn't have to be so bad...

 

... okay, yes it sucks.

I'm not even going to bullshit you.

It's worth it, though. You save a ton of money, and have a bunch of energy that you didn't know you had.

And then relatives notice you are running on the side of the road and inquire if you are okay, and you say, uh, yeah? Ignore relatives that stop you on the side of the road because you aren't in bad running gear that makes you look like an 80's Loverboy band reject. Appeasing such relatives just because they were unaware that normal people also run is fruitless.

Le sigh.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #37)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:51 AM

38. .

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #38)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:57 AM

42. That was a big

 

ole verbal emesis wasn't it?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #42)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:59 AM

44. I cannot believe the stuff you come up with sometimes.

 

I be over here scaring my kids laughing all loud.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #44)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:02 AM

47. Don't you wish

 

I am just telling a tall tale and not recounting an *actual* incident?

Jesus. Some folks in my family think women shouldn't exercise. I shit you not.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:29 AM

49. See, bravenak, here's the thing.

 

I know how a politician can enact progressive taxation. I know how those tax monies can be re-invested into communities. i know that improved economic standing does a world of good for the internal dynamics of a community. i know that funding schools strengthens the next generation and helps keep them secure in their standards, and able to progress further. I've seen all these things done before. I can look at history and see it getting done before my time. i can even see examples of it from eras predating modern political theory. Wealth redistribution from the top to the bottom revitalizes and protects entire communities. It's a simple fucking fact, proven often enough that the only people who deny it are the same sort of people who think snowballs prove climate change is a hoax.

These are observable, practicable, repeatable, proven systems and actions. They can't cure everything admittedly, but they can have a damn big effect.

And your counter? "it's simple! We just cure racism!"

Well. Okay, yeah, that sounds great. No doubt. Once racism is cured, i have no doubt all sorts of amazing, great changes will take place for the betterment of everyone. it's just that, well, see... I have no concept of how a politician might achieve this. In fact I'm almost certain it's impossible. There have been plenty of attempts on this front, and they've done plenty of good on hteir own... but they haven't cured a damn thing. Racism remains rampant and overtly influential, apparently impervious to prior legislative attempts to take it on.

So. we all know that it is possible to enact progressive economics, the variety of means that exist to do so, and hte positive effects that come from doing so.

Now as of 4/30/15, you and so many others have been claiming that this is compeltely wrong, that progresive economics is in hte way of social progress, and that it is possible to put people of color on equal footing with whites without ever talking about a single dollar ever.

You and a handfull of others are the ones demanding the overturn of well over a century of tried anh true progressive philosophy. You're going to have to prove the thesis you favor.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #49)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:41 AM

50. Damn Scoot, let's do this.

 

We know all of that. But all those benefits you describe get handed out inequitably because of the rampant racism in our nation which is getting worse not better.

We pay more in fines and feel and spend YEARS in jail, not getting any of the benefits that you describe. Our men are in jail and our women earn much less than white women already, and they raise their kids alone or go look for ANOTHER babydaddy to help. You know I'm the only woman besides ONE cousin with the same father for both my children? Why? I lived in oceanview and got sex ed every damn year and then some. My school had new books and I was in the gifted program. Fucking white privilege for black people is what I have. But I still had a gun pulled on me at a traffic stop for no goddamn reason.

Our kids still get suspended and treated like shit. This is one of the biggest crimes in America, going down in history. It is more important to me than any amount of money that even poor black people with no education get treated fairly. Tired of the lectures by folks who do not deal with the day in day out racism giving me lectures on how much the stuff that will help them will help me even though we both know how many of mine will get left out. We should all benefit. We cannot all benefit with the jails filled with negroes. They need their share too. Until that gets realized we are at an impasse.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #50)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:47 AM

57. Yup, we both agree that racism in the US is overt and high-impact

 

But we're not debating the omnipresence of racism.

We're talking about political solutions to problems.

I've got political solutions to economic problems. And I have proof that addressing those economic problems makes long strides towards fixing several social problems. Not all, of course not, but some is obviously better than none.

Your counter is two-part. First, you tell me it's all meaningless until we cure racism. Well, okay. But how do we do that? Why hasn't it been done? Why isn't it being done? And how do efforts towards economic solutions to problems stymie this achievement? And where was this argument before April 30th, 2015?

Second, you tell me having cash won't stop a cop from trying to kill you. You're right! Of course, having rights and legal protections won't stop that, either, as you have clearly experienced. You had legal rights and protections at that traffic stop. Sandra Bland had those rights and protections at her traffic stop, too. So did Zachary Hammond, a 19 year old white man who was gunned down in the back during a traffic stop. The problem here isn't a lack of rights, a lack of protections, but rather the fact that police are simply free to ignore those rights and protections as they want.

You also made this argument:
Money did not help the Jews, imo. It made them a bigger target of racism.


There's a flip side to this argument - southern reconstruction. After the civil War, lots of laws and regulations were made to make black people the legal equals of white people, in nearly every way that could be imagined. it was pretty radical stuff, especially given the times. And you know what, by god it was working. Freed blacks were entering politics, building communities and schools, even going to Washington. They could bring - and win! - suits agaisnt whites, all this stuff that was unheard of at the time, and which in some cases might seem kind of fanciful even today (like police defending blacks against whites, what's up with that?)

One thing that was not done, however, was wealth redistribution. For two hundred years, enslaved Africans had been creatign wealth for their owners. After the war, those owners got to keep every cent of it, all the property, all the land, everything. Black people were left to bootstrap.

So after the occupation ended, what happened? Well, at that moment whites and blacks were legally equal and economically inequal. What happened? White people translated that wealth into political power, and used it to strip all those rights and protections and laws. In less than two years, everything was gone, and the south had entered the Jim Crow era, with a steamign helping of reenslavement (oh, "sharecropping"

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #57)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 06:15 PM

96. We should make more laws then. And enforce them.

 

Because money alone won't do diddly. And when we hear that WE gotta have money to protect us in ways nobody else does just because we are black. It makes me want to burnit all to the ground.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #96)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:11 PM

97. How do you pass a law to cure racism?

 

What sort of enforcement would be needed for that? How would enforcement be done? And how is it that even thinking about economics stymie this utopia? And why has this only been the case for three months?

I'm not against these notions, mind. So long as i know how it's supposed to work. If it's possible to simply legislate away racism, I'm on board, but i need someone to tell me how the hell that happens and why it hasn't been done yet. If stapling my mouth shut about economic issues is the key to social progress, fine, I'll shush - so long as i have a clear proof that my silence on the subject is actually going to help.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #97)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:28 PM

98. You pass laws to prevent institutional racism.

 

You cannot fix minds but you can fix laws.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #98)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:33 PM

99. Can you give me an example of this sort of law?

 

'Cause, pardon me if I'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure existing law already covers most of it. Like I said to Bluenorthwest, it's not a case of not having legal rights, more it's a case of those rights not being enforced, right? if what's already on hte books isn't being inforced, putting more stuff into said books isn't likely to help.

It seems to me that demanding federal investigations into local law enforcement and courts would be much more productive.

And I'm still not seeing how pressing for economic justice halts any of this.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #99)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:41 PM

100. We need laws that say you go to jail for profiling.

 

We need laws that say you MUST record every stop. Or go to jail.
We need laws that say you cannot profit from imprisoning people. Or you go to jail.
We need laws that say of a department's stats indicate profiling, the guilty ones go to jail.
We need laws that say you cannot have all white jurys for black people anymore, or all white prosecutors and judges, they have proven they cannot be fair.
We need laws saying that if it is shown that black children are treated unfairly at school, everybody gets fired..
We need fair housing. More laws and better enforcement.
We need to funnel the money spent to lock people up into rehab and revitalizing our communities.
We need new low income housing built.
We need to end the drug war.

If we can't get stuff like that, what's the point.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:19 PM

109. And I question hte ability to enforce such laws

 

You got to jail for profiling. Alright. I know that it can be proven that a department is profiling, by comparing stops against demographics and such. But how does that go down to the individual level?? How do you prove, before a court of law, that profiling has taken place by an individual officer? it comes down to trying to prove what a police officer is thinking, which is damn hard for anyone - and of course our system runs by innocent until proven guilty, (yes, there is many an asterisk there, I know) so the courts give the cop the benefit of the doubt on this one. shy of the cop being on video telling the person he stopped that he stopped them for being brown, such a law will get more press than results.

Speaking of the way our courts treat cops. Send them to jail? Oh, yes, I know it SHOULD happen. In fact legally it has to - police are not above the law, after all, and should face the same punishment of any other citizen for committing a crime. but they don't. because there are nearly no judges who will convict a cop, much less actually put them behind bars.

Cannot profit from imprisoning people? Oh, THAT'S ambition. You know that one goes all the way up right? it's not called "the prison industry" to be cute, and the people who profit from it are our "esteemed leaders." You think congress is going ot pass a law that would result in most congresspersons getting arrested and jailed? i would welcome it, but you and I both know it's not going to happen.

a law against all-white juries sounds like a damn fine idea. At minimum, a law that says Juries cannot be mono-gender or monoracial is needed. Ideally, full demographic considerations would be a factor. Though I'm not quite sure how that would work, without leaving defendants from very small demographics (like native Americans in Alabama, or well, black people in Alaska) still screwed.

Fair housing? Low income housing? School fixes? Community revitalization? Wasn't this the sort of stuff you were just writing off as that terrible scourge of "economic justice"? The stuff that won't help black people at all? Is it just that economics are bad when "white liberals" (Snarl! Sneer! Spit!) like WillyT or myself bring it up, or what?

Ending the drug war? I'm all on board for that one. Apparently though, our Sensible Leaders are not.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #109)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:28 PM

110. You asked me what I thought, I told you what I think.

 

Many of these things are demands of the activists and some are mine.
I do think we can outlaw the orison industry if we want to. We pay for it. We elect the congress and the senate. We can harass them at primary time by interrupting their speeches. Seems to be effective. I wish I was in the lower 48 right now so I could interrupt something. Ticket prices are goid right now but school starts soon, so, meh, I'll keep writing evil messages to the entire senate like Andy Dufresne.

Yes, I think if we have the cameras legislated we can SEE who is doing the profiling on video and yes, we need to make laws that put they ass in jail. The courts need to be able to be sued as well.

I guess of we mandate not monochromatic juries for colored people they will have to look for jurors to place for trial. I'd be willing to do jury duty more often if it helped more people get a fair trial. Many people will. Maybe gay people can help us out on the jury pool. They seem to like us.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #110)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:33 PM

113. I did, and you did. Just trying to keep the conversation going, bravenak

 

Stiff penalties for turning off the cameras sounds great to me. There's still a lot of other things that need to be done there, but that's definitely a good start.

Like i'm saying, it's the "enforcement" side of things. i have no doubt in the ability to pass laws, but actually making htem stick? That's where I turn into a jaded, cynical bastard.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #113)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:40 PM

114. With laws in place we can cripple the offenders with lawsuit to ensure change.

 

Turning off those cameras is the one thing that should be an automatic firing or arrest. It also help the police defend against bullshit charges of which there will be quite a few.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:30 PM

111. Why haven't these social and economic laws

been enacted in the last 7 years?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #111)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:46 PM

118. Why are you asking me? Bernie was in the senate, why didn't he propose them? Obama would have signed

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #118)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:17 PM

123. Why didn't Obama

huddle with Boehner and Mcturtle to get these laws presented and passed just like TPA?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #123)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:01 AM

127. Did you ask Obama to do that?nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #127)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:43 AM

130. No, did you? It's your list.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #130)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 01:53 AM

132. No. You just seems so concerned. Maybe you should stop questioning me.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #132)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 03:09 AM

133. Are you unconcerned about your proposed laws and changes?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #133)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 03:19 AM

135. Very. Just not concerned with answering to you.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:52 PM

146. This is absolutely the best list of what is needed I have seen on DU. Thank you.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:30 AM

53. +1, Chris Rock, "... there's not a white person in here who would want to be me and I'm rich"

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #53)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:32 PM

112. If anyone desires to be someone else,

they have a serious self-worth problem

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Response to aspirant (Reply #112)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:50 PM

119. I like fortune cookies too.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #119)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:14 PM

122. Does their message increase one's self-worth?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #122)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:01 AM

128. I thought you were reading from one of those little strip of paper.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:38 PM

68. Could You Possibly... Not Call Me A Liar ???

 

Mistaken, misapprehension, wrong-headed... But not a lie.

And I still think the debate is open for discussion.



DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251416946




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Response to WillyT (Reply #68)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 05:17 PM

94. Not talking about you on that.

 

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:19 AM

17. I have never known WillyT

 

to post with anything but good faith.

That out of the way, I see nowhere in WillyT's post that he supports social inequality. I see nowhere in WillyT's post where he states there is no difference between social and economic justice.

I could not see examples because there were none.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #17)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:41 PM

70. Notice I asked him respectful questions, including about his choice of words, none of which was

 

answered. This is just the most recent example of WillyT's quest to divide forms of justice into groups and declare that civil rights are not very important. When he posted this statement:
"IT IS THE MONEY... IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE MONEY...It has rarely been about anyone's civil rights...

The good news.... is that you fix income inequality... you make people happy...

And happy people tend to live more in harmony."

I took issue with that. In part because he posted that during the Indiana Religious Freedoms law debate and as Black Lives Matter was doing their activism.
I invite you to look at that thread from the end of March, then also at the virtually identical bait he posted in May. You be the judge.
"Can We Have An Open Honest Discussion About Progressives, Civil Rights, And Income Inequality ???
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026430750

"Can We Have A Toughtful/Respectful Discussion Of Civil Rights Versus Income Inequality ???"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026669120

So after all of that, yes, I do want to know why he is saying that social justice concepts are 'foisted' on people. I posted the definition of 'foisted' which means 'force something unwanted or bad'.
Note that I asked him.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #70)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:34 PM

76. I read both of the posts that you linked to

 

In both of them, WillyT posited that social justice issues are intrinsically linked with economic equality issues.

Do you disagree with that hypothesis?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #76)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:43 PM

80. Are you claiming that's all he said? Why don't you or WilyT answer one of my questions before

 

you start grilling me? Do you agree with the statement 'it's hardly ever about anyone's civil rights'? Yes or no? That statement is right there in his OP, dated with the week LGBT people were under attack in Indiana. Not about civil rights, it's about money. Do you agree?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #80)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:53 PM

83. See, here is where WillyT will have to address

 

his intentions with his post. From my point of view, he is saying that "social justice is intrinsically liked to economic justice" and I believe that is true. I see nowhere that he said "the only road to social justice is economic equality."

It's not an either/or. Would we have the right to marry if it weren't for gays and lesbians with enough money to hire a lawyer and fight for the right to marry? I don't think we would have gotten it this quickly. The arc of justice can be terribly slow, but financial advantage can certainly speed that process up.

We need to have legislation that eradicates the inequality in our social justice system - that is plain to anyone who is paying attention. We also need to address financial inequality, which I believe is also plain to anyone who is paying attention.

Nobody (to my knowledge) is saying it is a zero-sum with respect to these issues.

Do you disagree with that?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #83)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:05 PM

85. Allow me to try again:

 

Why don't you or WilyT answer one of my questions before you start grilling me? Do you agree with the statement 'it's hardly ever about anyone's civil rights'? Yes or no?

I have now asked you about that quote 3 times. In one of those threads, I asked WillyT about the jobs discrimination against LGBT people and he simply never answered then either. It's an old, tired game.
So you don't get to keep evading and just asking me questions. If you can't manage the first question, tell me what you thin of the word 'foist' in the context WillyT uses it. Words have meanings.

Do you think that marriage equality was 'foisted' on people?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #85)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:15 PM

87. I'm not WillyT

 

so I cannot comment on what WillyT intended or didn't intend with that choice of wording.

*I* do not think that marriage equality was "foisted" on people, but if you ask evangelicals, they will say that it was. As though anybody getting married affected them in the slightest, but holy rollers are a strange lot.

So yes, sometimes you do have to "foist" things legislatively that offend a subset of the population. I'm sure they felt the same way when miscegenation laws were overturned.

People got alarmed when de-segregation of schools was "foisted" on them, but it was a positive development despite the wailing and gnashing of the teeth at the time.

I hope my reply was candid and clear enough that you know where I am coming from.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #87)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:34 PM

92. But you rushed in to do it for him. These are questions he has evaded in thread after thread.

 

All he has to do is answer them. He's the one who keeps saying he wants to discuss these things. You claim he's super good will guy. But he says 'let's discuss' then he will not discuss. Good will? I don't think so.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #92)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 06:02 PM

95. I clicked on "My Posts"

 

I saw it was yellow. I looked to see who replied to a post of mine. It was you. I replied.

You asked me a question, and I answered as candidly and clearly as I could - brow beating me because I pointed out that I'm not WillyT and can only answer for myself isn't going to change that fact.

I think we have reached the limit of this particular discussion's usefulness between you and myself, because I can't tell you what is on anyone else's mind but mine, and hopefully, I answered you satisfactorily so that it is clear where I stand. Hopefully WillyT will answer you at some point.

Bluenorthwest, you and I agree far more often than we disagree.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #95)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:41 PM

115. Why hasn't he answered your question now?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #115)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:01 PM

120. Because I know WillyT tangentially on DU

 

Doesn't mean I know specifics of that person, just his posts.

Don't know what he looks like, never spoken with him, and have fuck all to do with him outside of DU posts? He makes good ones, by the way.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #120)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:27 PM

125. Referring to Bluenorthwest

and your question in posts #76 and #83

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 01:01 AM

131. You Don't Want To Discuss... You Want To Lecture And Hector...

 

That's why I Ignore you.

In the old fashioned sense.


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Response to Aerows (Reply #17)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:43 PM

71. :)

 






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Response to WillyT (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:59 PM

73. And yet you can't answer any of my questions, ever, in any of these threads you make.

 

Why did you use the word 'foist'? Simple question.

You can emoticon bully but you can't even answer direct questions. Speaks volumes about your confidence in your position.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #73)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:44 PM

116. An ignore list.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:13 PM

65. Uhm...

Increase the minimum wage

Reform the process for funding education to assure that poor and minority school districts get proper funding.

More federal spending on jobs programs and infrastructure projects that are required to meet certain legal obligations regarding being equal opportunity.

Reorient the federal prosecutors to target more white collar crime and less street crime.

More pardons for nonviolent drug offenders (like president Obama did)

Ending for-profit prisons and putting that money towards treatment and education.

I could list a lot more than that.... but I literally only had three minutes to give you right now.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #65)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:46 PM

117. This sounds like socio-economic justice.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:09 AM

129. Like this: Tax the rich into utter submission, and cut the defense budget, and use the revenue

to fund mass increases in public education, universal public healthcare, free daycare, free higher education, and government jobs programs for rebuilding our infrastructure, including public high speed rail and alternative energy systems.

For starters.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:13 AM

16. If it takes you to 2013

 

to evolve on gay marriage, you are doing human rights wrong.



That is a major issue I have with Hillary Clinton. She's okay on a lot of issues, but that one got stuck in my craw.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:15 AM

25. You have to give them time to figure it out, WillyT

 

After all, the notion that social and economic justice stand in opposition only came into being on April 30, 2015.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:26 PM

59. Time to figure what out.

 

The numerous excellent replies before you made this one. Dismissal only distorts reality for the individual doing the dismissing. Reality being the direct answers the op has received before you posted "You have to give them time to figure it out,."

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #59)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:02 PM

62. There are replies, but none of them address WillyT's question, they just rephrase it

 

Question: "How does one legislate social justice?"
Replies: "By legislating it!"

The exceptions are ibegurpard, who makes a point about the "bully pulpit", and Bluenorthwest, who simply endeavors to change the subject.

There is nothing "figured out" there. At best, the replies are glib and naive. At worst - as is the case with bluenorthwest - they are hostile and intentionally disingenuous.

Seeing as how the "conflict" between social and economic justice is exactly ninety-seven days old, and is primarily being presented by people whose only agenda is to present it over and over and over again, and NOT to actually support it.... I figure I'm being generous in just allowing that such a young political theory might not have all its points in order yet.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #62)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:11 PM

64. Numerous replies address it directly. Nt.

 

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #64)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:16 PM

66. rephrasing and evading are not addressing.

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #62)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:20 PM

90. Recent changes in the laws have given millions the right to marry, expanded Social Security to

 

end an egregious injustice, the deprivation of same sex couples of the same benefits straight couples take for granted. The social injustice in that case created, directly created the economic inequality the OP claims to care deeply about. In the past, two widows gay and straight, straight gets benefits, inheritance and the gay widow gets zip, nothing. Instant income inequality resulting from social injustice, in fact dictated because of bigotry.
Fair Housing Act, recently kicked up a notch, is a useful law, it would be great to legislate changes which ended discrimination in housing against LGBT people. Also discrimination in employment. Those are cases in which legislation would protect people and allow them to function on an level playing field, offer recourse when justice is denied. As it is, in 29 States they just fire us for being gay and say so. A law could in fact change that.

Pass the ENDA, then we can talk about how civil rights are meaningless. How's that? Pass the fucking ENDA.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #90)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:38 PM

93. Enforcement of a law would change that. Which is my point

 

On the topic at hand, the rights are already there. The protections are already there. it's not an instance of a lack of legal rights, as is the case with the GLBT rights you just mentioned. The problem is violation of those rights. Non-enforcement of protective law.

Now, thankfully, enforcment of these LGBT rights is pretty on-the-ball rigth now. I worry if it will remain so ten, twenty years from now. Sixty? 'Cause that's what's screwing black people over, decades of legal neglect and little underhanded nips and tucks to circumvent their rights without actually overwriting or abolishing those rights.

Simply saying "write more laws!" is a glib, thoughtless "solution" to the problem. The laws are already there!. So, of course the reply to that is "enforce them!" Absolutely. Now, what's the plan for enforcing these laws, and why the fuck do we apparently have to wait until inauguration day, 2017, to see such enforcement?

Also, I do not recall anywhere I have ever said that civil rights are meaningless. Please do demonstrate to me where I have.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:20 AM

27. It is the perception of poverty that drives racism


You can enact laws to end social injustice but until you eliminate the perception that Black people are poor and powerless you will not eliminate the attitudes that foster social injustice.

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Response to jeepers (Reply #27)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:23 AM

28. i have seen more anger towards black people who are successful or have money than those who don't

many times.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:47 AM

36. The color of a mans skin does not matter

if the cop knows from the get go that the man is rich, black or white, he will be treated with great deference. If he is white and nothing else is known about him he will be treated with some measure of respect, but if he is black it is assumed that he is poor. He is a thug, a thief, a drug dealer, a welfare cheat, lazy and is given no respect.

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Response to jeepers (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:52 AM

39. Bullcrap. Chris Rick grts pulled over constantly.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:57 AM

43. and the experience of black people who move into wealthier (and more white) areas with nice houses

they know these people bought that house, have the nice car yet they will often face harrassment.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #43)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:00 AM

45. They get pulled over constantly. That is stressful.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:04 AM

48. the professor gates incident is the one i always think of

an educated black man with a respectable job and the cop KNEW all of that but can't handle a black man who may be "better" than him.

and add to that the president comments about how black and hispanics get treated unfairly and the media, right wing, and even those hwo claim to be dems and liberals attack him for causing division and we see why the president is not able to be so open when talking about race.

more recently was the attack on the pool kids .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #48)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:15 AM

51. I know Cambridge quite well

and I remember that incident. The cop was belligerent refusing to take the professors word that that was his house even refusing to believe when presented with evidence that it was professor Gates home. He couldn't believe that a black man owned such a home. Arrested Gates for being belligerent in his own living room as I remember

That is what I am saying. It goes beyond whether a man is rich or poor in fact but goes to the perception that black people are poor. That all black people are poor because (this is where you hurl insults at the black man) because he is lazy. He'd rather steal or go on welfare. I/m leaving that obscenity right there hoping you understand my meaning.


It is late
Hug the kids and
have a good night

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Response to jeepers (Reply #51)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:37 AM

55. McKinney blacks are like Joe Pool (Mira Logos\Grand Peninsula) blacks they have money and affluence

.. but that didn't stop officer Barrel Roll from treating all the black kids like shit.

There was a reason the PD acted so fast, cause the blacks there have money ...

That didn't STOP the cop from acting like an asshole from the get... not at all..

Money will help deal with things after the fact, it wont stop folk like officer Barrel Roll

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:02 AM

46. guilt by association Bravenak

Rock is black and black people are poor. He could be driving a Rolls and unless it says on a big sign on the back of the car "I am Chris Rock and I am worth 20 million dollars' he will be pulled over and accused of stealing the car because he is black and black people are poor and the poor steal.

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Response to jeepers (Reply #46)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:02 PM

104. Black people are not poor. Who told you that? Most of us are middle and working class.

 

White people get the Lion's share of welfare services. Why are so many blacks poor? I know! Racism. That's why. Racism causes the unequal distribution of resources.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #104)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:57 PM

147. Way back in the 50s when I first started lobbying the majority of people on welfare programs were

white people. Yet the stereotype has always been about black people. No one even listened to the facts.

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Response to jeepers (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:53 AM

40. this is just not true as experienced by many black people

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Response to JI7 (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:33 AM

54. +1, when there's a dichotomy people are afraid their world view will be challenged and their comfort

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:24 AM

30. It took Hillary until 2013 to support social justice for LBGT.

 

I'm sure she'll get around to supporting social justice for blacks when her focus groups tell her it's politically expedient.
As for economic justice, I'm not gonna hold my breath that will ever happen...she's paid too well by Wall St billionaire banksters to ever support that.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:26 AM

31. affirmative action would be one example

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:31 AM

32. To promote social justice, we must empower minority communities.

 

Economic opportunity empowers minority communities.

Thus, working toward economic equality promotes social justice.

Simultaneously, we must also address the police state and reform the justice system.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:54 AM

41. What I've come down to is that this can't be resolved on DU.

 

We could resolve it right away face to face.

Everybody should be treated fair and equal.

I'll just say something about discrimination in hiring. Employers have too much power to pick and chose who they hire.

Any person willing to work should immediately be offered a job.

We have an endless amount of social social need.

That's my socialist solution to employment discrimination. Automatic jobs.

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Response to Cheese Sandwich (Reply #41)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:52 PM

72. Discrimination in hiring is legal, in 29 States it is perfectly legal to discriminate against LGBT

 

people in employment and in housing. This could of course be addressed by making such discrimination illegal and creating recourse for those who are discriminated against in violation of the law. This is what I ask the OP about every time he attacks civil rights issues on this board, he says it is all about economics, but some of those economic problems have social justice solutions.
Today he is asking again how passing laws could possibly make more justice. He knows it is legal to discriminate against LGBT. You do the math.

It's not two kinds of justice, it is simply justice. Those who seek to parse them out them are attempting to divide justice.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #72)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:20 PM

75. Well sure I'm all for anti-discrimination laws

 


I bet the OP is too.

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Response to Cheese Sandwich (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:37 PM

77. Well then why is the OP asking the question asked?

 

"How Does One Legislate Social Justice ???"

If the OP is 'all for anti discrimination laws' why is saying he has no idea how laws can foster social justice? You tell me.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #77)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:12 PM

86. Maybe inarticulate wording?

 

The title question was goofy. They tried to explain in the post, they are asking how can laws end racism in people's hearts and brains. And they also ask what are Mrs. Clinton's policies for racial justice issues.

There is a certain tone-deaf quality to the whole thing. But I've seen enough DU to know that nearly 100% of people on this site support anti-discrimination laws, OP included. I think that's a safe bet.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #77)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:17 PM

88. I think you and the OP are closer on this issue that you think.

 

In an earlier post you wrote:

It's not two kinds of justice, it is simply justice. Those who seek to parse them out them are attempting to divide justice.


The OP is addressing those who very definitely argue that there are two kinds of justice.

The case you bring forward - employment discrimination - is a great example. Employment is definitely an "economic justice" issue, with a "social justice" element (discrimination). It's not possible to legislate the "social" side of that, because it's not possible to legislate how people feel or think. But we can definitely - and should! - legislate the "economic" side (i.e. ENDA).

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:03 AM

56. I really appreciate your op here.

 

I didn't think this question needed to be asked on this board. It explains a lot of the posts I have read over the last couple of months. Some good answers already informing you of how. I'm sure many more will come down the pipes. I wasn't aware people were so in the dark on this.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #56)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:44 PM

61. +1000

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #56)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:07 PM

63. Thanks NCT... We Are So Used To Government Being About "The Power Of The Purse"...

 

that we often don't consider other options.

I've learned some things here... I hope it leads to better understanding.

BTW - It seems that Social Media has a better/more immediate chance of healing racial/social division, than legislation does. But that's another argument for another time.




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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:54 AM

58. You can PROMOTE social justice through legislation.

 

Voting rights laws
Anti-gerrymandering laws
Anti-discrimination laws
Pro-integration policies
affirmative action policies
civilian police conduct oversight boards (which include significant minority representation


those are just a few ways. The idea is to increase contact, and normalize social and economic interaction to reduce the "othering" of racial minorities.

These are actions specifically aimed to counter racial injustice, not just economic disadvantage. I suspect all our candidates support programs like these, though maybe for slightly different reasons.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:40 PM

60. Measurement and Accountability

 

Example: Health systems have to report quality data to CMS. They do not have to stratify those data by, say, race. We know health care inequities exist. No health system (with 1 or 2 exceptions I know of) measures those gaps. No one requires it. No one is accountable for making sure all patients regardless of economic status or race get the same high quality care with relative parity of health outcomes. Structural racism and injustice continues

Example: We have data that show children of color are more likely that white kids to be suspended or expelled for behavior that gets whites kids, say, a trip to the guidance counselor. Yet school funding is not tied to the narrowing of these disparities. No one is accountable and structural racism and injustice continues.

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Response to BOSNYCDC (Reply #60)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:27 PM

67. I didn't respond because I thought it was obvious...

 

you did well pointing out where things can start.

I think it's willful ignorance to pretend that social injustices cannot have a legislative component.

Thanks

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:23 PM

69. Thanks for that. Structural components of racism

 

Can be legislated to an extent

Not sure how to address good old fashioned interpersonal racism except to hope that predicted demographic shifts will make significant headway.

Of course, so long as the top 1% have all the $$, and so long as the top 1% remain predominantly white and out of touch.....

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:02 PM

74. It is willful ignorance.

 

It is obvious.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:40 PM

78. Oh pass a civil rights act

Give women the right to abortions, Make it illegal for men to rape their wives. You know, shit like that. Tons of stuff.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:45 PM

81. I humbly offer these ideas:

One: DEFEND existing affirmative action programs on the books and expand them. If the colleges could get away with not admitting black or brown people, they would.

Two: DEFEND AND RESTORE the VOTING RIGHTS ACT of 1964, even if you have to try to make it an AMENDMENT. State electoral boards are just employees of whatever Billionaire throws largess.

Three: Make all federal elections have a standard procedure, ran BY the feds. If the state boards want to run their gubernatorial and mayor races, fine, but the entire nations should not be held hostage because people in my state of Florida are already trying to steal the state. Oh hell yes I want the feds in Florida come 2016.

Four: Make receipt of federal funds contingent on a standard. Sorry Ferguson, you want those federal funds to buy military grade weaponry because your Police are scared of young Black boys, sorry, eh.

Five: make a CLEAR delineation of civilian and Military powers. Yes, there are gangs that are literally better armed and equipped than many militias, and NO, that is NOT sarcasm. But if the Zetas want to attack Los Angeles, that is where the National guard can step in, not force Police to do this act that switches from solider to the civilian patrol. In order to do this , you may need to:

BREAK UP THE DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, which has done nothing more than reduce the effeciency of many agencices, ala Fema during Hurricane Katrina.

Six: Repeal the Clinton era "reform": The Telecommunications act. The news cycle will never be able to tell the story as long as only a few people control the media. Fund local tv, and while I would include PBS in that, there should be a focus on community radio as well, because it is local. PBS is great, but they stay way too much in an ivory tower, catering to people whose idea of a different perspective is Anglophile Television.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #81)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:59 PM

84. Punitive laws enacted to keep a certain group in their place

 

repealed or changed....yes! An amazing start.... thanks

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 03:49 PM

82. Answer: When the legislators think it will help them attain or hold office.

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:55 PM

103. +1

 

for the healthy dose of cynicism and reality check. Opportunism and pandering abounds amongst the well-heeled "representatives of the people."

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Response to WillyT (Original post)


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:48 PM

101. Great Question - I Look Forward To An Answer As Well

eom

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:52 PM

102. Legislation is a different thing from achieving true change.

Stealing is illegal, but no amount of legislation will prevent some people from stealing.

The American Civil war ended 150 years ago, but it seems evident to me that some whites living in the American South have not stopped fighting that war. Those types of people might be unreachable and/or unchangeable.

The US Constitution mandates a separation of church and state, but that does not stop some in the GOP from attempting to impose a theocracy.

An interesting question.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Aug 6, 2015, 10:54 AM

141. Wondered that myself in the face of climate change.

I thought about this before in the context of other equality legislation like handicap accessible business laws but it is in the same vein, I think.

It requires laws and enforcement of laws, it requires inspectors who ensure it is being followed, it requires a strong, stable and well funded central government with taking care of the health, wealth and security of all citizens as a priority.

When I think of the coming climate apocalypse, I worry less about legislation and rights we have yet to acquire and more about the current ones we do have which will quickly vanish without those means of enforcement.

Whatever battles we wage today are for naught in the ever nearing future. A future that not only precludes us from creating more enlightenment and equality, but one that evaporates all sacrifices and gains made by those who came before us.

I am hoping for the best. I am preparing myself, in my meager ways, for the worst. I worry so much about those who will be lost and left to suffer, alone, in what we are bequeathing them.

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