Did you know you can support Sanders and BLM at the same time?

[joshcryer]

Because you can.

You can support Sanders' civil rights activism all his life and support his legislative efforts to those ends. You can support Sanders marching with MLK, doing sit ins, getting arrested for civil rights causes, and that's great. You can support and even champion Sanders economic message.

But you can also support the movement that points out that 7 times more unarmed black men are killed than any other peoples, you can support the movement that points out the fact that incarnation rates overwhelmingly target black men, you can support the movement that points out the fact that black people have higher incidents of poverty.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

I live in a visceral pain in my gut, politically, like I did when Dean lost the nomination, when I hear that Sanders is somehow against this sort of thing, and people arguing against BLM, for whatever reason. Granted, a lot of it is emotional. A lot of people are trying to split up BLM to different groups. The pro-Sanders or anti-Sanders groups.

As far as I see it Sanders was only targeted because, unlike every other Democratic candidate, he makes himself readily available, he's there, you can see him in public speeches or rallies relatively easy. This makes him, and I know its controversial to other Sanders supporters, a prime target. This doesn't bother me. It encourages me, because Sanders puts himself out there.

Clinton hides behind either $2,700 fundraisers or very specifically defined talks in high schools or middile schools or whatever, where no one, not a freaking single non-vetted soul is going to be within 20 feet of her. With the secret service not far behind. (And our pathetic media doesn't talk about this nature of her public appearances one iota.)

I wholeheartedly disagree with the actions of Seatle BLM members, and am on record saying their actions disgusted me, but that is over with, it's done. What happened happened, and what followed followed. Sanders had tens of thousands show up to the next events (online and in person). Sanders isn't going away. BLM didn't crash him nor was its intent. It wanted to make the news, that's all. That's really all militant action can do.

I'm left in complete disarray, because I'm not in the bubble, I know Sanders' campaign is doing extremely well. I believe Sanders has a better shot than any (I won't lie or be disillusioned and say he's a shoe in but I will repudiate anyone who says he can't win).

I'm telling you now, from someone who supports Sanders and BLM at the same time, it sucks to be of this mindset. Would it be that I could bash BLM because of some militant actions by a few (which were not denounced by BLM leaders). I can't.

BLM matters just like Occupy. And BLM isn't solely against Sanders. BLM is against not being heard by the establishment which they overwhelmingly support in elections. That's it. Accept that BLM wants its voice heard by the party which it feels has left them behind despite their votes, and you'll truly feel what they are about.

[onehandle]

1. Not here. nt

[ibegurpard]

2. Yeah nice try

[gollygee]

3. I support both!

[HooptieWagon]

4. BLM doesn't want white support.

So I'm fine with ignoring them. Sanders wants to stop police on black violence, I agree with his position. If BLM wants to tackle the issue on their own, then best of luck to them. If BLM leaders are merely using the issue as an excuse for confrontation and personal self-promotion, then Karma will catch up to them.

[joshcryer]

6. Wrong.

BLM doesn't want "whitesplaining."

[gollygee]

9. +1

[Stellar]

40. +10

[Kali]

55. this

[Romulox]

57. Aren't *you* white? nt

[joshcryer]

76. I'm not the one saying "black lives matter, but..."

I can disagree with what a couple of BLM advocates did without it tainting the entire movement. People want to taint the entire movement of BLM. I've seen it here on DU of all places.

[Romulox]

94. Right. But you ARE speaking for People of Color. And you are not a Person of Color.

That's not appropriate.

[joshcryer]

105. I'm clearly speaking for myself...

...I thought.

And other Sanders and BLM supporters.

[JI7]

7. isn't sanders press sec part of blm

[HooptieWagon]

12. I believe she's a supporter, not a member.

[George II]

37. Are you talking about the press secretary he hired only a day ago?

[virtualobserver]

63. here comes the diminishment squad......

[whatchamacallit]

71. You know how the game is played

"Sanders doesn't get it, isn't connecting or reaching out..." Followed by "Poser!, too little too late, so transparent..." Rinse, repeat...

[artislife]

72. Yes after 3 weeks of vetting.

Man, you do have persistence, I must hand it to you for that quality.

[George II]

73. Five months into his campaign and he finally decides to hire a press secretary. Hmmm.

[cascadiance]

80. And how much later will it take Hillary to make a similar move?

Or does that not really matter in her case for some reason?

[joshcryer]

85. Clinton must know it must happen before her next rally.

So she's not even announcing a rally I bet until she has something cohesive.

Sanders spent 3 weeks on his platform. It was almost certainly going to be released before his SC University speech (maybe it was going to even be released on the anniversary of Brown's murder).

If Clinton does not have some platform set out before her next rally she will be protested, because you can't screen for protesters in a big public event (like a stadium).

Clinton is playing it safer than any potential candidate I've ever seen. The whole "small roundtable" approach is super safe. No questions from journalists, talking to people vetted well in advance, many whom were on her 2008 campaign or who were at least associated with people on her 2008 campaign (and this is easy to prove, anyone can Google this; every single group she visits was at one point a huge 2008 supporter of hers; she and her team knows she's in good company).

[George II]

103. Check her campaign website

[George II]

102. I believe she's had a spokesperson since the beginning of her campaign....

.....and her campaign staff is over 30% minorities (before this hire Sanders' campaign staff was roughly 10% minority)

[cascadiance]

104. And this staff has had how many public forums where she has spoken to the masses...

... instead of just rich people at $2.7k a plate dinners? Really effective minority representation in terms of facilitating her communicating to the masses! Why aren't they having her speak to Netroots where BLM people were "listening"?...

[Comrade Grumpy]

98. You should find something useful to do with your time.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

119. You're delusional if you believe someone at the level of National Press Secretary...

was brought on in one day.

[Fred Sanders]

64. Some folks do not get it...it is not a matter of "support", it is a matter of education for some

who are on the verge of understanding the real damage being done by two hundred years and more of white advantages.

If folks can wake up to the reality that same sex marriage was a false and implanted mindset created by centuries of institutional mass indoctrination, and that can change so quickly, then so too can folks wake up as quickly to the manufactured mindset of white advantage.

Bravenak took a more direct route, I prefer the back roads but to the same goal.

Education.

[David__77]

77. Where do you get that from?

I've seen nothing to the effect of that. Even Black separatist groups, like African People's Socialist Party, welcome white support through allied organizations.

[HooptieWagon]

96. From their own mouths.

[David__77]

99. I know it's not your job to do so.

At the same time, would you be willing to direct me to a quote from this movement (someone in it) who says that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. I think you are one of the people I wrote this for

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027068496

Carefully read it.

[RiverLover]

5. Very well said.

Thanks for this perspective.

[daleanime]

8. +1

[CentralMass]

10. No thanks, I dont care for their tactics.

[joshcryer]

13. If you read my post you'd know I'm against the strategy.

It does not mean that I am against BLM. Those against BLM are not progressive, even with tactics we disagree with.

[CentralMass]

21. I recogonize the issue and support the cause, but not the group BLM who has hijacked it

for their own purposes.

[joshcryer]

35. BLM founders have denounced zero...

...actions by mainstream mentioned affiliates.

[SonderWoman]

11. I completely agree.

Also, if you listen to the interview with Marissa, people will realize that this wasn't about Bernie Sanders, it was about Bernie supporters. It was about Seattle. It was about Seattle being a liberal utopia, yet cops there are still out of control, schools are expelling black students at a rate of 10x more than white students. It was a wake up call that even in a very liberal city, liberal policies are failing the black community there. Basically, it was an opportunity to address the city of Seattle. It was more about accessibility to a large audience.

[HooptieWagon]

14. Behaving like jackasses to a large audience....

Their message to the audience was a big "fuck you". OK, now that we know where BLM stands, we can decide if supporting them is warranted.

[SonderWoman]

15. Listen to the interview.

She was onstage crying while people threw bottles at her and demanded she be tased and arrested.

[HooptieWagon]

16. I watched until she shoved Sanders. That's assault.

At that point, I don't give a shit about her or her agenda. I'm pretty sure the crowd felt the same, especially after she called them white supremacists.

[SonderWoman]

18. If you don't care then why should they support Bernie?

[HooptieWagon]

32. They can support whomever they want.

It seems that BLM is taking a NOI approach (if not partnership). They will probably discover that while support for the issue remains strong, support for them in particular will wane. That will include the AA community, in my estimation. The vast majority of people aren't seeking change by blowing up the system, but by achieving change through the system.
As much a leader as Malcolm X was, he had only a tiny fraction of the following MLK had. Even in the AA community. By definition, radicals don't represent the majority position.

[David__77]

78. On what do you base your assessment that "radicals" don't have a plurality of Black support?

It really does strike me that some white people want to feel soothed or assured that due to their voting habits they are not part of a problem.

[msanthrope]

87. This. nt

[HooptieWagon]

97. My reason is stated in the post, had you read it.

[David__77]

100. I understand.

Upon further reflection, I agree with you that among Black people, only a minority consciously hold "radical" positions such as revolutionary ones, nationalist ones, or groups such as NOI, for instance. I also think that those are often the most dynamic political currents among the Black community. In the 1960s, only a few tens of thousands (or so) were in the orbit of the Black Panther Party, I think, and still that party made a tremendous impact.

Perhaps George Washington Carver was more attuned to most Black people's cultural-political disposition that WEB DuBois - I don't know. And yet, I think DuBois has the more powerful, enduring legacy (again, my opinion).

What I don't think you're going to see is Black people en masse condemning someone for pointing out that police are killing Black people in the streets, wherever and however they choose to point that out. And I think that any conspiracy-theorizing (whether such conspiracy is true or not) regarding individuals' intentions in pointing these things out is completely unhelpful to liberals.

[TM99]

26. Please provide proof for this assertion.

In no video that has been aired has there been anyone throwing bottles or demanded she be tasered.

I have seen booing, heckling back after the insulting comments, and I have seen her physically assault a very gracious Sanders.

Or is this another one of the social media lies like the one yesterday that said Sanders supporters were biting them?

[HooptieWagon]

34. Yes. They eff'd up, now they're lying to justify it.

They were hoping to be dragged off the stage, so they could play the victim card. That didn't happen, so now they're inventing ficticious victimization.

[NCTraveler]

107. Listening to the audio was horrifying.

The things yelled at her were eye opening. It wasn't just one individual and the mic didn't have a far reach of people.

[gollygee]

20. This bears repeating

"It was about Seattle being a liberal white utopia, yet cops there are still out of control, schools are expelling black students at a rate of 10x more than white students. It was a wake up call that even in a very liberal city, liberal policies are failing the black community there."

We can't just say we're liberal and therefore we're allies. We have to do things that actually ally ourselves with people of color. We should think of "ally" as a verb rather than a noun. Do the work rather than just label ourselves.

[jwirr]

106. So we voted for President Obama because he promised hope and change. Was that not help?

Or at least a try for help?

I do not live in Ferguson MO so what can I do to help there? I can support voters rights so they are allowed to vote their useless city government out so they can hire their own police force and make changes. But other than that I cannot change what is happening there. I also cannot change what happens in the state of MO either. I do not live there.

I did elect a US Representative, two US Senators and a President that could do something about it but not alone. But as it turns out not much was accomplished for the black community. Or for any of us on the bottom.

What exactly do you expect from us and I am not asking to be educated about the problem of people of color - I am a white part of a community of color. My family all are people of color. I am asking for specific actions that I can do. Like Bernie I have always been a supporter of civil rights and the movement for social and economic justice but apparently that will never be enough. No matter what I do I will always be just a white supremacist liberal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Find what are the conditions in your town and join in the efforts to change it

I cannot do that, since I report on this, my role is to inform people. But locally a lot of white, latino and yes, AA, are working together to bring accountability to the police.

That is just one example.

You are right, you are not in Ferguson... but trust me, if you look under the scab locally, you will find something where you can help.

Also read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027068496

[jwirr]

111. Our community went through this long ago and we dealt with it. We have the white community and

the Native American community in the same community. We are not physically separated into races. We are also a small community and our police and their families are part of our community. I could I suppose go to the largest city in the area about 25 miles away and find some of the problems there but I still would not be in a position to do much about it.

On the police issue our situation is totally different than what is happening in the black communities now. For one thing we have two police forces. The town has a police force with both white and native officers and we also have a totally Native police force that deals with most of the Native population. We are very integrated and work together in our jobs. Many of us are mixed race families.

Economically since we built the hotel casino the tribe is one of the biggest employers in the community and our kids work in the community. We have enough money that we are as welcome in the stores as anyone else.

That is not to say that racism never happens but for the most part it is not institutional like it used to be. Now that we have jobs that pay something (compared to when we had no jobs) our children are encouraged to go to school and prepare for college. Most of them graduate and those who do not attend a Native class to help them achieve what the want to do. The Native Head Start school is the best in town and like the other one they accept all children regardless of race. And the best thing about the education is that now the teachers recognize that our children are capable of excellence just like the white kids. The school has Native artwork on the walls right beside the usual artwork. We try to make sure things are fair.

One of the big reasons that this is working for us is that this is a town that DID learn from the 60s. That DID move to make these changes and have continued to do these things. We all rub elbows. I have found few people who think they are somehow better than someone else.

What all of us do about problems such as the ones in Ferguson MO is work damned hard to see that they do not happen in our community.

In this case you are wrong - we lifted the scabs long ago. We are just making sure they do not come back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Glad to hear it

but then help others, and the internet makes it very possible. And I just used police brutality as an example, There are so many other issues. Brutality is just the obvious right now.

[jwirr]

113. I know I have been trying to explain how economic justice did help our community. The casinos

was the thing that really helped us turn the page here. And my family do try to help others when we find someone who can be helped. We even send money to a young boy in Tanzania. He is so very poor but he is going to school and he is lucky enough that his mother works at the school and they get to live there along with his grandmother.

Anyhow that is pretty much why I asked what things we could do. I was thinking about lobbying for some bill. My granddaughter just informed me that she is working to have the government regulate treatment centers on the reservation better than they do now - I am going to lobby for that. She works on President Obama's advisory committee for Indian Health and went to all the reservations to teach them how to use the ACA.

We are really a very involved family. It just comes naturally. My dad was a fantastic man who cared about everyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Currently we are having a fight over a casino

Personally I do not think it is going to do much good for this particular tribe, but that is location, location, location, The other tribes have benefited for the most part. One had to close theirs, again bad location.

I think you and I are in far more agreement than it would appear otherwise.

[jwirr]

115. One important thing about the casino - we run our own we do not let someone else make the

decisions. That is how a lot of casinos got into trouble. The profits went to the managers not the tribes. And yes the location is very important - it has to be close to at least one city. We are between Duluth and Minneapolis. That is why some tribes have not benefited - they do not have the location.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Which is the second problem

they are letting an outside company do this.

I remember asking the Chief (he passed recently) about that... he was a tad cagey.

The Casino is near a Mexican city, and San Diego, but the access is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

[jwirr]

117. Doesn't sound good to me. I do hope it works for them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Me too

[Mnpaul]

122. I really admire what the Mdewakanton Sioux are doing with Mystic Lake

they went that route as well. They are providing jobs for everyone, setting a good example for stewardship of the environment through recycling and helping out other tribes across the midwest with cash assistance. Thanks to them, all our state patrol cars have emergency defibrillators.

[jwirr]

123. Yes, I see it as finally becoming a real part of the communities and that is good for both white and

Native. For so many years the government and the white communities treated Natives as if they were naughty children who had to be disciplined. No more. Running the casinos and even helping the entire community out has given the proof that this was never true.

I don't know about the rez close to you but one of the most beautiful effects has been what is now happening to our children. The schools and the athletic programs are no longer sidelining them as if they are of no consequences. Our kids are seen as children who are going to succed in life if they are given the chance. I have seen children taking part in programs that were almost always white events. They are graduating, going on to college, playing on high school teams and in the band. I now have 11 great grandchildren who are playing in sports this summer. They are getting great grades in school and they love their teachers. They are the ones we are doing all of this for.

[gollygee]

120. I would point you in this direction

http://www.showingupforracialjustice.org

You will always be a white liberal (I hope! Unless you start supporting Rick Perry or someone!) but white supremacist liberals is a phrase that was used to describe white communities that consider themselves liberal but ignore systemic racism, thereby supporting white supremacy. If you and your community aren't doing that, you aren't white supremacist liberals.

[jwirr]

124. Believe it or not I know that. I am not in an area that has any marches. Although I think what the

Minneapolis BLM did was great.

I spend my time lobbying for things I believe in and wish there was something concrete other than protesting that could be done. We need some things presented to congress that can be worked on - like voters rights reform with teeth, like Bernie's Vote Holiday bill and request for funding for body cameras for all police. Those are the things that people like me know how to do. I am working on Native American issues right now.

I will be honest with you and tell you why I was so upset to be pushed aside as if I had never done anything in this fight. And I am sure many other white people felt this way. I am the only white member of my family. I have worked for the issues that impact them since the 60s and I often speak for them. In fact my grandson actually brings his Asian girlfriend to me so that I can explain the tribal system and culture to her when she has questions.

When I heard the word white supremacist liberals seemingly applied across the board I felt like I had been stripped of all meaning. Absolutely worthless to any cause even to my family. And I think that is how many activists here felt.

I talked with Nadin last night for a long time and she basically said what you have just said. So this morning the tribe sent me a packet that they want me to lobby on and I am back in business. Likewise I am waiting for the actual process of lawmaking regarding BLM issues to begin in DC so I can join with others to fight with BLM for the change that the whole country needs.

Thank you.

[gollygee]

125. I think protesting is concrete

And this is an area where white privilege can help the cause. Unfortunately, our white supremacist society does not respond to marches by people of color as much as it responds to marches that include white people. We need to join and support - not try to lead, not tell people of color how to do it, not explain what we think is best, but just show up and support. Our support can help a great deal.

[Armstead]

70. The assumption that thewhite progressives there have bad faith bothers me

Saying that the progressive community is oblivious is misplaced anger IMO. Misinformed and simplistic.

It a city struggling with an amped up version of gentrification due to economic forces that are putting the screws to people of all races, and most income levels (except those in the financially fortunate bubble).

The awful progressives are also in a city that raised its minimum wage far higher (and sooner) than most places. At least efforts are being made to deal with this stuff.

To be honest, I also suspect- many of those at the rally also feel powerlessness and anger. They may not have the direct experience of racism, and perhaps need a wake-up call to educate them about the true implications and systemic causes of racism.

But it is misinformed to attack them as all being apathetic limousine liberals and clueless "white supremacists" and attack them for forces that are also beyond their control.

[tk2kewl]

17. Stop making sense...

[hootinholler]

19. Yeah, well, I'm just a lilly white middle aged fat guy

What the fuck would I know?

When one candidate who has worked his entire career trying to prevent the injustice that is rampant in the US is being rejected for a candidate who has worked advocating positions that made things worse, it's kind of hard to get my head around that notion.

I am outraged by jack-booted storm trooper police.

I am outraged by the incarceration rates.

I am outraged by the war on the poor.

I knew the welfare queen was a fucking lie back then and I know it still is. I know first hand how it is to be poor and white. I can't imagine how much harder it must be to be poor and black.

But I can't say a fucking thing without being accused of whitesplainin! Being told if I don't understand by now I never will.

Why do people not understand that dialog requires 2 or more people, otherwise it's preaching, or worse.

[joshcryer]

23. Yeah, that's projection.

being rejected for a candidate who has worked advocating positions that made things worse

I know you're talking about Hillary Clinton. I'm not stupid. That's not what this post is about. Clinton will be protested, bank on it, BLM just hasn't had access. It may not be until after the first few debates, but it's going to happen. She's cut herself off. She's hidden.

Sanders has out himself out there, unlike Clinton.

[Stellar]

44. Hillary's secret service detail will make sure no one get near her like they did Bernie. nt

[jeff47]

65. Bullshit.

Clinton will be protested, bank on it, BLM just hasn't had access.

Bullshit.

Her events are not held on another planet. There are plenty of places Clinton could be protested without storming the stage.

[joshcryer]

75. There are zero Clinton rally's scheduled Jeff.

Zero. She hasn't had a rally in 2 months. The two largest public rally's she had was a campaign event in NYC and a speech at a womens event (if they infiltrated the NYC speech the SS would've had them wisked away within minutes, and the womens event was not the place to do it, the crowd would've been extremely hostile and there's no way they would've been allowed to pull a NetRoots Nation style protest).

I think it's important to note that BLM knows that they're getting criticism for "not attacking Hillary" so they will try something to show that they're equal opportunity. The question will be whether or not Clinton addresses it or has security get rid of them.

[jeff47]

79. There are fundraisers scheduled. It doesn't have to be a rally.

Roads still lead to fundraisers.

so they will try something to show that they're equal opportunity.

Yes, they did tonight. Apparently it involved being late so the Secret Service wouldn't let them in. Because nothing says emergency and urgency like showing up late.

Followed by claims that Clinton wanted them let in, but the Secret Service said no. Because we're apparently supposed to believe protectees have no say in their interactions with other people.

Followed by a private meeting, because somehow it's safer when the activists are right next to the protectee instead of across a room with Clinton on a stage.

Followed by BLM not allowing reporters into the meeting, because despite their plan to talk to Clinton in a crowded room full of media, they suddenly don't want a mountain of free publicity.

In other words, they "tried something", and the story stinks.

[joshcryer]

81. You want cameras and controversy.

Do you know how often G8 gets protested or how often TPP got protested? Nobody covered it but there were and are indeed protests outside of each and every one of those meetings.

I think them getting late to the Clinton thing was an excuse, I think they didn't intend to get in there, because they were actively wearing BLM shirts and the SS wouldn't let them get in there. I think all the excuses were weak sauce. It was not a genuine public event. Anyone walking up is going to get vetted. An ID check would be all the SS needed to know they were BLM members.

I think the private meeting was these activists getting there, knowing that they're not going to get in, ceding because it's an exciting thing to get to meet with a high level presidential candidate. And I think Clinton probably talked sincerely with them and belayed their concerns about adding a platform.

Apparently the BLM people recorded their meeting with Clinton so that will probably come out in the following days. And that should go over quite swell here on DU.

[KittyWampus]

41. Oh, you can and do say lots on DU. And it all shows exactly how you feel about black activists.

[Ed Suspicious]

22. Bernie Sanders has heard and responded to their voice!

[joshcryer]

25. Sanders' platform was well into the making.

It wasn't Seattle that spurred it but Seattle maybe fired the trigger (due to the timing of it). Sanders has been on the lead since SC and before.

[Ed Suspicious]

27. Oh, I know. Many others struggle to deny that for purely partisan purposes.

[joshcryer]

29. And they're idiots.

Sanders will be at the University of South Carolina this week. The platform was well in the making. You don't build a platform in a single day due to psychotic protesters.

[betterdemsonly]

24. I support the causes they support. I don't support them and so long as they allow themselves to be

coopted by Palin supporters or as long as the shut down political speech.

[JackInGreen]

28. And will until I drop

the thing I'm not understanding is people conflate dislike of persons within a movement or objections to their actions with disapproval or negativity on an entire movement.
#blacklivesmatter
#feelthebern
#melkissmygrits

[joshcryer]

30. Shit internet identity politics.

edit: explaining what you're seeing.

[JackInGreen]

31. are you disagreeing

or objecting or restating? I'm not sure which.

[joshcryer]

33. Sorry, check my edit.

I agree, stupid ass internet identity politics screw everything up.

[JackInGreen]

36. No worries

Yepper.

[Cosmic Kitten]

38. Blasphemy! We get ONE ISSUE at a time!

None of this walking and chewing bubble gum
at the same time nonsense!

[Fred Sanders]

39. Clinton is not "hiding"! Where have you been? Once again having to dishonestly attack another to bolster your own horse...it is gratuitous.

[JackInGreen]

45. No...

That describes the cost per plate at her fundraiser. Her security. The size of her pricetag. The amount of time she spends in the hones of the elite pressing the flesh outside of public eyes.
THAT'S gratuitous.

[Fred Sanders]

47. And this kind of "logic" is exactly the same as Republicans once used to attack Candidate Obama. Complete nothings.

I ask again, why do those supporting a candidate have to attempt to attack others...it weakens them both, logically speaking?

Putting up one person or two from BLM or a couple of idiot posts from DU - where membership is free and open to 7 billion humans - as "representative" of anything in order to smear and attack anyone not in total agreement with the strategy and smear is Fox-like propaganda on DU - we have seen this play out before......from another Party.

[joshcryer]

49. You assume objective fact as an attack.

Sorry to be you. Facts are neutral.

[JackInGreen]

61. Facts do tend

To have a liberal bias don't they?

[Cosmic Kitten]

46. Ummm when was her last public rally?

Nah, she's not hiding
just keeping the unwashed masses
far enough away she can't smell or hear them

[joshcryer]

48. BS post her public rally schedule.

[Fred Sanders]

50. On August 10, 2015? Why? 450 days to Election Day! And everyone gets to do their own schedule,

still a free country.

[joshcryer]

51. Link please.

Not a one. Not one public rally before the first debate.

[Cosmic Kitten]

54. What were the details on that event?

Who, what, how many were there?

From the audio it sounds really lite?
Any crowd pics?

[Fred Sanders]

62. Logic is lacking..... like I said. Judging merit by number of debates or number of "rallies"... I rest my case.

[ibegurpard]

42. You can also support BLM

And disavow people and tactics that insult entire swaths of a population and target one particular individual.

[marble falls]

43. Absolutely yes. I support both.

[Live and Learn]

52. +1 This infighting on DU makes me very sad.

I support Sanders and Black Lives Matter.

[joshcryer]

53. The lines that were drawn in the past two days...

...literally sickened me. Literally. My appetite went to nothing. I have been chewing on beef jerky and water.

[Ichingcarpenter]

56. I agree with your summation

thanks for coherent explanation.

I support BLM but not the two political arsonists in Seattle who interrupted a social security medicaid rally anything but only out there for themselves

[blackspade]

58. Right on.

I feel the same way.

[jeff47]

59. Did you know you can support BLM's cause and oppose BLM's tactics at the same time?

Clinton hides behind either $2,700 fundraisers or very specifically defined talks

Are there no roads leading to these events? Because if there are, that might be a place for BLM to protest or otherwise draw attention to their cause. BLM does not seem to be interested in doing that.

Sure, they'll get less coverage that storming a stage and refusing to allow anyone else to speak. But that is not the same as claiming it is impossible to protest other candidates.

Or even better, protest people who can actually do something now. #BlackLivesMatterButDontChangeAnythingFor16Months is not nearly as good a hashtag.

[joshcryer]

82. No.

Only BLM can decide what tactics are appropriate or not. I can disagree with some tactics, but if I were to say that those tactics "weren't BLM" I would be lying or disingenuous unless BLM specifically denounce those tactics. I can say I was bothered, disgusted, or even angered by certain tactics, but I can't disavow it after calming down and realizing that those tactics were used and it was over with within a few minutes.

Let me know the next time a G8 or TPP event gets news coverage. You have to be loud and boisterous at a public event with news media present to pull it off. And you have to draw controversy. Code Pink, Pussy Riot, they know this.

It sucks but that's just how life is. The "lesser" must make a racket to be heard. That fucking sucks.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. Reminds me of the old days when the clean air and clean water people used to duke it out.....

Last edited Tue Aug 11, 2015, 11:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Someone would come forward and say, "I'm fighting for clean air!"

Someone who wants clean water would say, "Oh, so you're fine with our water being polluted??!!"

About then someone would join in who wanted to save the forests.

.....then the whales.

Meanwhile the companies that were doing the damage?

[Kali]

66. I feel the same

I don't even have that much problem with the disruption of the Seattle event. I do cringe when people - especially prominent posters here - switch candidates "because of the supporters" because I plan to vote for the Democratic candidate in the general, no matter who it is.

Is switching "because of the supporters" really the example you want to set? Because all candidates are going to have factions that come across as obnoxious/racist/elitist/whathaveyou and at the general you want to get everybody back in the fold. I worry that using supporters' behavior as a criteria for choosing may backfire.

There are assholes in EVERY group. Sometimes anybody can be one. Black Americans have been ignored, oppressed, KILLED and taken for granted for too long. I believe Bernie Sanders would actually be the better candidate to address some of this. I am also trying to hear what is being said BY THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY LIVING BLACK AMERICAN LIVES.

[joshcryer]

84. The "switchers" are beyond pathetic.

"Switching" from Sanders to Clinton or switching from being pro-BLM to being anti-BLM are ridiculous (and yes both have posted here). (And yes some BLM people are full anti-Sanders but they have their own reasons due to supporter harassment, some have even admitted it was irrational, because the supporters shouldn't sway them, but on Twitter it's pretty damn toxic. That platform is a cesspool of harassment.)

At this point I don't think Marissa is an "asshole" though I disagree with her tactics, I think she was a young passionate somewhat misguided person who just let it loose. That's to be expected when you take a breather and step back and just evaluate what happened in a more compassionate, less toxic lens.

[mmonk]

67. I do. I have marched against recent deaths of Black youth at hands of the authorities.

And then I come here when I'm through and receive my label as a white supremacist.

[JDPriestly]

68. BLM wants to be heard. We Sanders supporters are listening and agreeing with it.

You should have heard the ovation for BLM last night in the Stadium at the Los Angeles Bernie event. No where do Sanders supporters more support his BLM stance than in Los Angeles, where we rank maybe even above New York in terms of our multiculturalism and our diversity and mutual acceptance. We still have a ways to go, but even with all our problems including police and justice violence toward Black people, Los Angeles and California have no really strong racial or ethnic majority. And that, already puts us necessarily on a path to more racial justice. Not claiming we are even near there yet.

Demonstrations are fine, but respecting and nurturing democracy and listening to and respecting each other is the most important, highest value in our civic lives. And when a demonstration completely silences political voices and interferes with democracy in our civic lives, then they are not good.

Any group can take over a meeting and shut it down. That silences voices and destroys a bit of the democratic process. We have the right to speak. We have the right to demonstrate. But the speaking and the demonstrating have to take turns so that each side can be heard and judged on its merits.

I agree with the purposes of BLM. I do not agree with any group, whether it is BLM or the KKK or women's liberation, or anti-abortion, ending participation in the democratic process by silencing a speaker and not allowing that speaker to speak at his or her own event. Only if someone is advocating violence should they be silenced. Otherwise, we should each speak in our turn.

[joshcryer]

83. "whether it is BLM or the KKK ... or anti-abortion"

Do I need to respond how you are putting these groups on the same level? Do I?

There was and is nothing "democratic" about a planned speaker at an event. Obama made this abundantly clear when he was heckled by a trans person who infiltrated a White House LGBT event (he wasn't doing enough apparently):

Unfortunately Sanders didn't have security around the podium (either his own security of the event sponsors; that same thing happened at Netroots Nation). I think Sanders was in a no-win situation though because once they get up to the podium it gets complicated to get rid of them.

You can't disrupt a democratic process, see Occupy's Open Mic events. No-one dared it.

[Vattel]

91. I like your OP a lot, but the dismissive "he wasn't doing enough apparently" makes me angry.

Obama is the chief executive and INS is a part of the executive branch. Gutierrez was there because conditions for LGBTQ prisoners in INS detention centers were horribly unsafe. She was justifiably demanding that a horrible injustice perpetrated by the executive branch of the federal government be addressed, and her demands were addressed to the person in charge of the executive branch.

Maybe your remark was not intended to be dismissive and, if that's the case, my apologies.

[joshcryer]

92. Sorry, that was tongue in cheek.

I apologize for saying "not doing enough apparently." The heckler had legitimate concerns. She made herself known and got removed for it and it sucked. It always sucks when people get removed and their concerns aren't addressed immediately.

I was trying to make a point that (apologies to you) if you go to an event you're likely to be removed if you're disruptive. Those kinds of events are not "democratic" as the other poster posed. They're inherently non-democratic. The events are for the speakers, not the audience.

I admit I could have used better wording there. Perhaps "he was lacking in LGBT efforts."

[Vattel]

93. Thanks.

[davidpdx]

69. Well put Josh

I tried to post the other night about this and I am glad you wrote this because it was a hell of a lot better than what I was able to convey.

[99th_Monkey]

74. K&R nt

[msanthrope]

86. Well reasoned and true. DU should self-eliminate those who force a choice.

I know I owe you a very long PM back in response to your wonderful pm to me. At some point things will calm down and I'll be able to reflect upon it. Thank you Josh

[joshcryer]

88. That second paragraph in my PM evolved.

Because what I said was and is being addressed as far as I feel (see the recent efforts to those ends by the subject matter). But everything else is the same. Just a heads up if you feel like responding (I don't require a response).

Thanks for being you msanthrope (I didn't delve into your recent stuff happening with you here but I back you up on that other issue, I know you and your ex meant well and I know you're a good person, so know I was / am backing you on that, even if I didn't get involved in those discussions).

[aikoaiko]

89. I think so too but apparently BLM thinks I'm a white supremacist liberal.

Because I would have preferred hear to let Bernie speak.

[joshcryer]

90. Nope.

In the terrible language of the academia, the "white supremacists" were the ones who didn't clap when Marissa spoke.

I know that language is extreme, and I don't like using such language because it's off-putting, but that's the truth. When Marissa spoke a good 1/3rd of the people clapped for her. They were the people who weren't terribly wrought by her talking.

And to be clear, Marissa pissed me off, and if I let my emotions get to me I might've been the people not clapping or jeering. I wasn't there so I can't say I was the better person.

It was a protest, that's all. We have to realize and recognize that. Take a breather, step back.

I feel bad for Sanders because it was a no win situation, he didn't want to have her forcefully removed, so he was the bigger person and just left the event (mind you, it was not his own event, so by leaving he was allowing other speakers to take over, if it was his own event I would have expected him to forcefully remove the instigaters, because unlike other posters, I believe that events are for the speakers, not disruptors).

[Romulox]

95. josh, this post is ridiculous. You are not a Person of Color, and don't speak for them. nt

[m-lekktor]

101. BLM doesn't want my support. I will just be indifferent to them. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. I think I also wrote this for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027068496

[kenfrequed]

121. And I do.

I support both.

[Comrade Grumpy]

126. I'll continue to work for racial justice despite my problems with some of BLM's tactics.

The cause is just even if, in my opinion, some of the leadership is destructive.