I understand Hillary's taking big money

[cali]

and Super-Pac money on her behalf. I may not like it or be comfortable with it but the argument that it's needed to defeat the republican nominee is compelling.

However, I don't understand at all why she can't draw even a modest line in the sand and refuse to take money from certain sources like dark money and money bundled from the private fucking prison industry.

And sorry, but even the FEC admits they're toothless and that there is coordination between campaigns and Super-pacs.


https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/23/private-prison-lobbyists-raising-cash-hillary-clinton/

[morningfog]

1. The simple answer: she cares more about her power than anything.

[HFRN]

2. A page from Orwell's 'Animal Farm' written 70 years ago

describes the OP precisely 'it's not what it looks like'


The mystery of where the milk went to was soon cleared up. It was mixed
every day into the pigs' mash. The early apples were now ripening, and the grass
of the orchard was littered with windfalls. The animals had assumed as a matter
of course that these would be shared out equally; one day, however, the order
went forth that all the windfalls were to be collected and brought to the harness-
room for the use of the pigs. At this some of the other animals murmured, but
it was no use. All the pigs were in full agreement on this point, even Snowball
and Napoleon. Squealer was sent to make the necessary explanations to the
others.
`Comrades!' he cried. `You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing
this in a spirit of selshness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk
and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these things is
to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science,
comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the well-being of a pig.
We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organisation of this farm
depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your
sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. Do you know what would
happen if we pigs failed in our duty? Jones would come back! Yes, Jones would
come back! Surely, comrades,' cried Squealer almost pleadingly, skipping from
side to side and whisking his tail, `surely there is no one among you who wants
to see Jones come back?'
Now if there was one thing that the animals were completely certain of, it
was that they did not want Jones back. When it was put to them in this light,
they had no more to say. The importance of keeping the pigs in good health
was all too obvious. So it was agreed without further argument that the milk
and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when they ripened)
should be reserved for the pigs alone

from page 14

http://msxnet.org/orwell/print/animal_farm.pdf

[magicmama]

5. Must pick up the book. I recommend watching Judge Dredd..

Same message.

[HFRN]

7. here's the link to the .pdf of the book (Animal Farm by Orwell), right here

now you've got it

http://msxnet.org/orwell/print/animal_farm.pdf

[magicmama]

8. Thank you!

Emailed it to my phone for a leisurely reading.

[HFRN]

10. it's an easy, but uncomfortable read

you'll recognise a lot of it, some things never change

[bvar22]

17. I read those back in the 60s, along with 1984.

At the time, I enjoyed then as fanciful Science Fiction...or at the very most, repressive governments like East Berlin.

Little did I realize that our "Ruling Class" would use Orwell's work as a blueprint,
and I would be living in an Orwellian Security/Surveillance World in my later ages.

How did we let this happen?
we were WARNED.

I am ashamed of the World we are leaving for our children.


And NOW... for the 2 minutes of HATE for Bernie Sanders:

[haikugal]

18. I have similar thoughts, I read them all in high school as well... nt

[magicmama]

22. So did I. I also remember Watership Downs

where I recently went to a restaurant inspired by that book (100% vegan)

[haikugal]

28. I read that...probably should read it again.

How was the food? Sounds like a great place..

[magicmama]

30. Not a big fan of vegan foods,

but I have to admit, their pancakes were very good.

http://www.watercoursefoods.com/

[haikugal]

32. Well, my diet is tricky..no gluten AND no dairy but I can do vegan...lol

[magicmama]

34. Doc has me cutting carbs....

so rabbit food, here I come, I guess.

Do you have Native Foods in your area?

https://www.nativefoods.com/

[haikugal]

35. I wish...hell no!!

I live in a little Burg in PA and have to go to the next big town for anything real like that. Even so, it's less hassle and better quality for me to cook. The internet let's me enjoy life! Home delivery rules!

Carb cutting is easy really...once you get used to no spuds or rice...lol I tell my son that all the time! Good luck!

[mak3cats]

45. A very poignant part of Watership Down...

...was when the protagonist rabbit died, it said something like "he didn't need his body anymore, so he left it lying there and moved on." Not those words, of course, but that meaning.

Off topic, I know. But maybe we should remember this when the primaries are over and we need to pull together again.

[bvar22]

24. You know, back in the 60s, there was movement toward equality and economic justice.

LBJ, warts and all, did a lot to advance the programs started by FDR, and add some of his own.
There was HOPE.
We were making a DIFFERENCE: Civil Rights Act, Medicare, Great Society programs, the War on Poverty (very successful, I wonder why we don't re-institute it).
LBJ DID what Democrats are supposed to do.

I had HOPE in the 60s because we were all moving in the right direction.
We advanced the ball for Social and Economic JUSTICE ...for EVERYONE.

That hope has been crushed by the two Centrist Administrations (Clinton, Obama).
I am no longer optimistic. WE have LOST so much ground in the last 30 years.
The Working Class & Poor can't stand much more.


I see very dark clouds ahead.
Better preserve a lot of beans this summer and put in a lot of firewood.

[haikugal]

26. True.

Now add a climate crisis on top. We can pull through quite a lot if we pull together and try to get things turned around, for our kids and the planet, but I, like you think hard times are coming and the outcome is up for grabs.

We have to get Bernie and other real democrats in office and I think we have to step it up on the climate front as well. Otherwise we won't be able to grow those beans.

Bernie makes me hope in a way that Obama never did. I'm with him, come what may.

[HFRN]

21. I don't think they used Orwell's work as a blueprint

I think Orwell was just a keen observer of things he already saw, in his own time, such as the idealism of lenin & marx evolve into the brutality of Stalin, and the immediate post war rise of the USA hegemony in the western world, ie 'Oceana' with England being reduced to the role of 'Airstrip One', a place to launch future wars

I think he just used a little imagination and speculated 'what if this stuff I see now, kept on going?'

[artislife]

23. We even have the born again virgins!

That book has stayed with me.
~

I pulled a quote out earlier about the war with Eurasia...it seemed to really fit the goal post changes of the Hillary camp.

[haikugal]

37. It's enough to make you dizzy isn't it?

[GitRDun]

3. It's a reason to choose someone else..

She's got good points, but the private money is definitely on the bad list.

[mother earth]

4. Our party is, in the end, no different than the GOP. When you stand for something, you fucking walk

your talk. I'm so tired of party line bullshit. I'm over voting for the lesser of two evils. I want a true representative of the people, and guess what? The man walking his talk, is not taking their bloody, beholding money. I'm not going to apologize, I'm going to full on go for it. I'm over corporate candidates.

If you want to be a representative of the people, you can't represent big money, it is THAT plain & simple. It's time to stop apologizing for expecting to be represented, when in the end, they are BUYING influence.

No first is worth selling out, if it was a first worthy of our allegiance, there'd be no damned issue, but there is a huge issue. I'm done, I'm over it, it's time for others to listen to their own inner voice & go forth accordingly.

It truly is a disappointment, to say the least, I'm a lifelong dem. At least with the "guy" who's not taking their money, I will have no regrets.

[HFRN]

9. if you are obligated to sacrifice pricipal to have 'The First [fill in minority here]'

and say, have the normal pattern of 8 years or so alternate, then this is your future:

2016 - the First (corporate) Woman President!

2020 - same

2024-2032 - Republican

2032 - 2040 - The First (corporate) Gay President!

2040-2048 - Republican

and on and on

in other words, screwed

[Agschmid]

11. Unrec.

Our party has tons of differences from the GOP, and if you can't see it you aren't really paying attention.

Re-watch that GOP debate, and then tell me Democrats and Republicans are the same.

[HFRN]

12. oooooh, I've been 'unreced', using a ficticious feature

now you've done it

you hurt my feelings

[Agschmid]

14. Have a sandwich you'll feel better.

Usually when I'm hangry that takes care of it.

[HFRN]

15. what's it mean to be hangry? nt

[Agschmid]

16. It's a horrible combination of "hungry" and "angry"...

Everyone should avoid posting while "hangry" as you may post things you might regret later.

[zappaman]

25. A ham sandwich?

I had one for lunch yesterday.
With cheese of course!

[FSogol]

46. Ham and Cheese!

[bvar22]

29. Nothing importrant happens at "The Debates".

The last Presidential Debates in this country were held in the 80s,
'and hosted/moderated by the League of Women Voters.
THOSE were "debates".

The LWV refused to host any more debates:

Control of the presidential debates has been a ground of struggle for more than two decades. The role was filled by the nonpartisan League of Women Voters (LWV) civic organization in 1976, 1980 and 1984.

In 1987, the LWV withdrew from debate sponsorship, in protest of the major party candidates attempting to dictate nearly every aspect of how the debates were conducted. On October 2, 1988, the LWV's 14 trustees voted unanimously to pull out of the debates, and on October 3 they issued a press release:

"The League of Women Voters is withdrawing sponsorship of the presidential debates...because the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter. It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and answers to tough questions. The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_debates

This is worth repeating:
" It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and answers to tough questions. The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public."


The "Debates" are a scripted Campaign Show for the easily entertained who don't ask questions.

[Agschmid]

33. I would argue that the last Republican "debate" highlighted some KEY differences between parties...

Anyone who doesn't see those isn't paying attention, or has some other motive.

[bvar22]

36. Words don't make a difference.

POLICY makes a difference.
We "hear" promises of POLICY,
but get very little.

Lets look at 2008:

*We were promised during the debates that NAFTA would be "immediately renegotiated"... never happened,
never even tried.

*We were promised that "when I'm President, EFCA (card check) will be the LAW of the Land...... never happened... never even tried.

*We were promised a POLICY that mandated food sellers to label their food for GMO contaminants and country of Origin....never happened.... never even tried.

*We were promised (Obama) that Social Security would be fixed by a POLICY of Raising-the-Cap..... never happened...never even tried.

I could go on (and on), but you should get the picture by now.


You will know them by their works,
not by their promises or excuses.

[Agschmid]

38. Yes.

And you'll know a Republican when they attempt to use the military/police/FBI whatever to stop abortions.

I can't even believe I have to argue Republicans vs. Democrats here, there ARE clear differences!

[bvar22]

40. You are having an argument with yourself.

Where have I said there were no clear differences between Republicans and Democrats?
Please link to the post.

All I did was post a quote from the League of Women Voters, a group I highly respect.
So, do you have a problem with the League of Women Voters?

[Agschmid]

42. I won't be linking to anything...

Please check the subthread, that was the topic on hand. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

[mother earth]

48. While there are vast differences between the parties, what is becoming completely obvious is that

these differences are slight after election...we simply aren't being represented. I love our democratic principles, I WANT them delivered upon. We just can't simply get there while we are experiencing purchased democracy by the billionaire class.

The pro-choice debate is another issue, altogether, you & I and everyone else know how the GOP uses divisive issues, I'm talking about the so called trade deals, the big money interests that allows for too big to fails/jails. Where are all the banksters who have been held responsible for their clearly criminal activity, i.e., HSBC. We can no longer afford to ignore these HUGE problems, prison profit, just like war profits, everything, it is all on the backs of the working class.

To quote Warren Buffet, clearly this is class warfare, and we are losing.

[uponit7771]

53. Congress was not overtly gerrymandered by dems and its not dems putting

..up road blocks to voting.

We dont have a representative government now because of republicans not both parties

[mother earth]

54. You forgot the biggest road block of all, big money buying elections Tx to SCOTUS, there is a HUGE

problem, & neither side is tackling it. Sure we are facing republican roadblocks, but Campaign Finance Reform or even safeguarding the voting machines, has not been tackled. Both sides are taking superPAC money, democracy is for sale. You know it & I know it.

[uponit7771]

55. Neither are tackling it because republicans are standing in the way, I don't think both parties

.... are equal on this issue.

Dems aren't perfect but they're not the root of the problem here IMHO...

Dems are taking PAC money so they're not bringing a knife to a gun fight

[mother earth]

56. The can force the issue, it is a bipartisan agreement to go with it. nt

[uponit7771]

59. This nebulous kinetic energy that Obama and the DNC is supposed to have that is supposed

... to "make" the GOP love America more than their ideals doesn't exist.

The only thing practical the DNC hasn't done is make sure people outside of the left know where they stand on the issue...

They're not going to make the gerrymandered GOP congress do anything

[mother earth]

58. People like you will excuse it away & that too is shameful. It is exactly why it continues.

It's mind boggling.

[uponit7771]

60. Declaring both parties aren't alike isn't excusing anything away. The biggest excuse I see is people

... expecting one man or a relative few people to change something this entrenched and backed by a lot of money.

Seems like it'd be more available to support a veto proof progressive congress who is for overturning CU...

[mother earth]

57. Big money supports BOTH parties, if not, it is easy, campaign finance reform...until then this

conversation is about complicity, to deny that is to deny the truth of the matter. If one party denies the money, don't worry, BOTH will hop on board, it is a selling point for their so called populism...they are accepting it, except for Bernie.

[haikugal]

39. That's when I knew we were in deep dodo....seriously wrong.

Thanks for the memory....

[Hortensis]

13. Yes, we are, big time! We just have to deal with the same realities. BTW, HRC has @$68 mil,

@$48 million raised by her campaign (@90% $100 or less), and @$20 million from SuperPACs/PACs.

Bush has @$120 million, $11+ million raised by him and over $100 million from SuperPACs/PACs.

This is from the NY Times as of August 1.


The big money is averaging heavily right, as usual, even though they are hedging their bets by donating both directions, also as usual. The figures show where Big Money feels investments will pay off best.

[mother earth]

49. The people's principles are vastly different, but because big money gets into the mix with

the candidates, they are the ones being represented. I was wrong to say there is no difference, the people, meaning the working class dems vs. the working class gop ARE quite different. But that gets completely lost, when big money owns the race. We are not being represented, so in the long run, our principles get lost, only big money matters. Yeah, they are hedging their bets, because they know, absolutely, their money is buying influence.

[azmom]

19. You are not the only one.

[mother earth]

50. I think we are all waking up to it, en masse. nt

[840high]

43. Voting for Bernie will give me

peace. For the first time in a long time I will not be voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

[mother earth]

51. That's how I'm looking at it. What choice do we have? We really are in Oligarchy, this is not "the

republic for which it stands", soon I imagine the states will be renamed with their corporate owner names.

[onecaliberal]

6. This is why I think those who want the cops and

Criminal justice reformed are just kidding themselves. She isn't going to go after her corporate donors.

[seveneyes]

20. She'll pay it back a thousand fold if elected

I've heard it called the tax free DNC-k fund.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

27. It has been the thing to do

Until now no candidate worried about it. Local councilmen and women eating out of the hand of land developers taking all the money they could get their hands on. It never changes.

[Historic NY]

31. Hypocrisy much.........in the end it boils down to money.

WASHINGTON – Sen. Bernie Sanders' opposition to super PACs and the unlimited money they spend has done nothing to stop such independent political action committees from forming in support of his bid for the Democratic presidential nomination.

One committee, "Bet on Bernie 2016," even arranged for Sanders' photo to appear — without his knowledge, the Vermont senator says — on an electronic billboard last month in New York City's Times Square.

"I have not sanctioned any super PAC," Sanders, an independent, said in an interview. "A major problem of our campaign finance system is that anybody can start a super PAC on behalf of anybody and can say anything. And this is what makes our current campaign finance situation totally absurd."

A Bet on Bernie news release says the PAC is seeking volunteers to participate in telethons, raise money and boost Sanders on social media. The committee is a hybrid PAC that has one account for making donations to Sanders and another super-PAC-style account for making independent expenditures in support of him.

"We want to raise 50 million bucks but, you know, we're getting pledges, and Hollywood just jumped into this," said Bet on Bernie's chairman, Cary Peterson.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/30/sanders-unable-superpacs/28184005/

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2015/07/16/supporter-creates-super-pac-for-bernie-sanders-who-hates-super-pacs/TTiyTWZkp7W09L0cwdmk4I/story.html

Dissent in Bernie Sanders’ camp

An adviser to Bernie Sanders has been quietly urging the candidate to hone in even more on getting big money out of politics. Now, he’s aggravated some in the Vermont senator’s inner circle by announcing he will explore his own White House bid.

Larry Lessig, founder of the pro-campaign finance reform group Mayday PAC, announced in a video Tuesday he is exploring a bid centered on campaign finance and voting rights reforms — a month after he wrote a detailed memo to the Sanders campaign, explaining how to more effectively talk about getting money out of politics and making the senator’s bid more credible.

“Citizen equality can’t just be one issue on a list. It has to be the first issue — the one change that makes all other changes believable,” Lessig wrote in the memo, obtained by POLITICO. “For the first time in forever, the Wall Street Journal reports this issue is at the top of voters’ mind. You need to be the leader who makes it top of your platform as well.”

Lessig had been informally advising the Vermont independent on campaign finance, corruption and voting rights reform. The two have been discussing these issues in recent months, including a July call that was followed up with the memo. The Harvard professor’s entry into the presidential race would mean more competition for the small-dollar Democratic donors whom Sanders has tapped to fuel his campaign.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-larry-lessig-2016-campaign-121280.html#ixzz3idmEGiq7

[cali]

41. not. such a ridiculous comparison.

[cascadiance]

52. Americans want a choice that isn't PAC funded...

[KoKo]

44. It's a puzzle isn't it. My feeling is that she does it because she can....

Her Campaign Advisors tell her what she needs to do and she does it. And, then there's BILL in the background.

[Bjorn Against]

47. I always have to laugh at those who think there is no coordination between Super PACs and candidates

Sure it may be illegal, but it is a law that is extremely easy to break without getting caught. It is not exactly difficult to talk to people and pass information back and forth, as long as they take reasonable precautions to avoid being recorded no one is going to be able to prove illegal coordination. I do not believe for a second that the people who give the huge dark money donations to the Super PACs hide their identities from the candidate, if they want payback I am sure they find a way to let the candidate know who to pay back.