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Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:39 PM

 

Why I DON'T support Bernie for President

This is a long post, but hopefully very specific about the reasons Bernie does not have my support. I am not a political newbie. I have been paying attention to and been involved in politics all of my adult life. I understand the issues. IOW, I am a highly informed voter.

Here are the reasons I do not support Bernie:

1. He talks a lot about the problems, but his policy prescriptions are either wrong, completely missing, or not viable/passable.

I actually want to start calling him Captain Obvious, because he seems to be stuck on telling us what the problems are over and over and over again. Millions upon millions of people in this country already know what the problems are. Every other progressive candidate sees the same thing and has spoken out about it. He is not a hero to me because he can see the obvious.

And there are some things he clearly doesn’t see that others do, or has been very much a Johnny come lately on issues, such as institutional racism.

His policy prescriptions are wrong in many cases, IMO. For instance, free college for “qualified” students is not something that will truly help PoC (and is not designed to). Their K-12 schools are horribly underfunded. First we must fix that problem or his free college pitch is just another pander to middle class white kids. And he wants to pay for it off the backs off fees that impact 401K and pension funds. That’s ridiculous. HRC’s and Obama’s proposals for free community college are much more viable.

HRC gets it. We need to find a way to beef up schools in urban areas with programs like head start and better funding. They should not take funding away from failing schools, they should increase it. Bernie seems oblivious to this.

Break up the banks? Reinstate Glass Steagall? Why? How will that help anything? It wasn’t commercial banks that failed. It was investment banks NOT tied to commercial banks and mortgage companies that failed. And thank god the commercial banks COULD absorb the investment banks or it would have been worse. The problem isn’t Glass Steagall; the problem is lax regulation of investment banks and others involved in the housing industry.

No wonder HRC won’t commit to reinstating Glass Steagall. It’s a fun talking point for rallies and will raise cheers from people who don’t understand the issue, but it won’t fix the problem.

On the TPP, as I have stated before, reasonable people can disagree on that. One of the best things about it is that it allows workers in other countries to organize into unions. That one thing could actually be the key to leveling the playing field. I don’t have anything against a candidate that is against trade agreements, but I at least expect him to articulate why, and what it would take to for him to be in favor of a trade agreement. We live in a global economy – that’s just a fact of life he seems to ignore. He doesn’t seem to have an alternative solution, and he sure as hell doesn’t seem capable of talking to people like they are adults on the issue like HRC does.

Nothing made Bernie look so inept and like an old out of touch white guy than Netroots nation. When challenged by BLM he went right back to the dumb economic equality talking point. You know why? Because that is what Bernie truly believes. Those that worked with him back in the days all his supporters like to rally around to prove he is some sort of civil rights champion have said that even back then he was convinced racial injustice was really rooted in classism. And he is completely wrong about that. So completely wrong.

I am not a PoC, but I am a lesbian. I spent my first 20 years in the closet so that I could have a shot at economic equality. And it worked. But when I came out of the closet 15 years ago after I was economically successful I did not find some sort of civil rights nirvana awaiting me. I still couldn’t marry my partner. I still had to raise a child whose parents could not marry. I still had to deal with discrimination day in and day out. My son was still bullied in school because he had two Moms. ANY GLBT person that has economic security can tell you that economic security does not confer civil rights. Despite what a lot of straight white privileged people seem to believe. It’s just bullshit. And I do not want a president that is so clueless on such an important issue.

HRC has voiced support for and championed policy proposals that actually impact the symptoms of racial injustice and has for a long time. Bernie is finally on board (at least mouthing the words after much pressure has been applied), but again, his Netroots nation performance was a dead giveaway that he doesn’t get it.

2. He has a very long record of accomplishing nothing. He has been in congress for 25 years with almost nothing to show for it, and certainly nothing that addresses the current issues we face. And I resent that he is introducing lots of legislation now that he knows is not passable, simply as fodder for his campaign. The senate staffers he has working on these issues are being paid with tax payer funds, all of which is being wasted.

Clearly he is unable to build the kind of coalitions that are needed to get things done. I know this from personal experience. It isn’t just BLM he ignores. Once I had made it career wise (economically) I did quite a bit of volunteer work for liberal policy advocacy groups at a fairly high level in DC. Bernie was nowhere to be found. Sure, he votes the right way, but he is completely uninterested in understanding the challenges faced by many of us – at least not interested enough to talk to us. It was absolutely no surprise to me that he wasn’t keen on talking to BLM. To me, it fits his MO exactly. An old white guy who thinks he knows best, and doesn’t need to hear from anyone else.

You know who can build coalitions? HRC. She has spent her life doing just that. Not being able to play well with others is a no go for me when it comes to a presidential candidate. Our issues are just too important.

3. He is not a Democrat. In fact he has spent 25 years dissing Democrats, even to the point of calling for a primary on Obama in 2012 (as I make sure to remind every PoC I meet that mentions the presidential campaign).

Don’t give me this “he’s running as a Democrat” baloney. See item #2. He isn’t going to be able to build a coalition with Dems in congress because he has scorned them for decades.

4. Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists. This is not in any way specific to DU. I see it all over the internet. On Facebook, Twitter, comments on liberal blogs – just everywhere. It’s impossible for Bernie to be unaware of some of the really clueless and sometimes overtly racist things his supporters say hundreds of times a day. As far as I can tell, he has not said a word about it. He is either oblivious or content to let it slide.

Even if you don’t put that on him, at some point a person is known by the company they keep, or the crowd that supports them. I can’t even imagine throwing my voice into that mix by supporting him. I don’t think I have ever been more disheartened as a progressive than I have been in watching the comments of Bernie supporters over the last few months. In fact, even the 2004 blaming of the gays for Kerry’s loss wasn’t as disheartening as Bernie’s supporters are saying now. Just no. I will not join them.

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davidpdx Aug 2015 #567
Gothmog Aug 2015 #569
Babel_17 Aug 2015 #581
Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #583
brer cat Aug 2015 #571
Marrah_G Aug 2015 #575
Sunlei Aug 2015 #576
Ikonoklast Aug 2015 #577
GoneFishin Aug 2015 #580
Ikonoklast Aug 2015 #587
GoneFishin Aug 2015 #589
yurbud Aug 2015 #578
Armstead Aug 2015 #592
ellisonz Aug 2015 #600
Ken Burch Aug 2015 #620
Mike Nelson Aug 2015 #627
PosterChild Aug 2015 #638
SunSeeker Aug 2015 #641
BlueCaliDem Aug 2015 #657
Jamaal510 Aug 2015 #666
BlueCaliDem Aug 2015 #670
dreamnightwind Aug 2015 #658
slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #662
Capt. Obvious Aug 2015 #669
LineLineNew Reply .
MoveIt Aug 2015 #682
Capt. Obvious Aug 2015 #684
Puzzledtraveller Aug 2015 #672

Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:40 PM

1. maggie, welcome back

 

i have missed your voice. now, lets read what you have to say.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:41 PM

2. Thank you!

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 11:53 AM

588. I am Native American...

and we respect our elders, and would never cut an allies free speech in order to get a point across! Many black people are embarrassed of this Black Lives Matter sub group's tactics.
So am I a Native American privileged supremacist liberal because I'm pissed @ what these two women did to Bernie Sanders in Seattle?
Actually, these two women are lucky as I was going to take a two hour drive to Seattle to hear him @ Westlake but decided against it when I heard Taylor Swift & a Mariner's game was also going on.

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Response to Rockyj (Reply #588)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 01:12 PM

591. " these two women are lucky as I was going to take a two hour drive "

 

why are these two women lucky? what are you implying you would do, that these two young women are LUCKY you did not take the time and effort to go listen to the speech?

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Response to Rockyj (Reply #588)

Wed Aug 19, 2015, 12:08 AM

644. So you're okay

with Sanders' vote for the bill that sold out the Apache Nation by handing their sacred land at Oak Flat over to a foreign mining company for the ultimate benefit of the MIC? What kind of Native American regards such a man as an "ally?"



And before you ask, I'm Tsalagi.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 27, 2015, 09:43 PM

683. stick her back in the fridge

 

Didn't even last 10 days before another icing...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=106348&sub=trans

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Response to short circuit (Reply #683)

Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:31 AM

685. Wow. Those are bullshit hides.

That's the clearest example of alert stalking I've ever seen. Just wow.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #685)

Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:35 AM

686. +1000. Tota;;y bu;;shit hides. Brought to you by the Milk and Cookies for Bernie

brigade. He who must be coddled! It's beyond sickening at this point.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #685)

Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:34 AM

687. Not really

But then again, whenever I get hides it's due to the conspiracy of alert stalking and not my own behavior.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:42 PM

3. "Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists." n/t

 

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:45 PM

4. "Elitists"!!!


Hmmmm...

Where have I heard THAT before...?

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:51 PM

8. Perhaps from Bernie's own supporters?

 

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:55 PM

14. One guys opinion is not 'many of his supporters are racists'. n/t

 

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:58 PM

19. yes. when i came back on the board, after kicked off, my comment is... you are welcome.

 

you are welcome i put myself out there even with the attacks, hides, and kicked off.

i love this guy. he says exactly what i feel.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #19)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:26 PM

44. Yep - agreed!

 

He is spot on. If more Bernie supporters were like him it would be nice.

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:45 PM

80. +1 ...

 

"If I stepped to you telling you that guy over there is your best friend and if you don't get in his van, right now, then you don't understand what is best for you ... I'm pretty sure if I stepped to you like that, you wouldn't want to speak to me or that guy, ever again!"

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #80)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:05 PM

120. I also liked that line

How are you doing?

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #120)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:15 PM

135. Yeah ...

 

But, here again, people seem to turn off their real life experiences.

I'm doing GREAT ... working insane hours ... But great!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #135)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:18 PM

146. I have been busy also at work

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #146)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:28 PM

164. Busy is far better than unemployed due to lack of work! n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #80)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:37 PM

179. Really? That spoke to you?


How about this...

"hey that guy, he's been helping you for 50 years, but he never made a big deal about it. All those other people telling you he is "not enough" and making it sound like he doesn't even care -- well I think he does. You should talk to him and find out for yourself. But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say"






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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #179)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:52 PM

205. Yes ... That spoke to me ...

 

"hey that guy, he's been helping you for 50 years, but he never made a big deal about it. All those other people telling you he is "not enough" and making it sound like he doesn't even care -- well I think he does. You should talk to him and find out for yourself. But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say"


That was good ... right up to the:

But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say


part.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #205)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:19 PM

464. Boom!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #464)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:37 PM

528. Is that your head exploding?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #528)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:39 PM

529. No, not me.

Yet I thank you for your concern.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #205)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 05:38 PM

601. "We're GONNA SHUT YOU DOWN!!!"

 

I wouldn't know what to say if two people jumped in front of m and started shouting that kind of crap in my face either.

I think most people would be non-plussed by that, including Hilary and O'Malley.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #601)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 05:50 PM

604. I'm not talking about Bernie or BLM. n/t

 

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #179)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:08 PM

391. The only thing wrong with that is that he has NOT "been helping you for 50 years"

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Response to George II (Reply #391)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:30 PM

419. Exactly.

He's been invisible as far as the LGBT rights movement is concerned. First Nations seem not to exist for him except as a bullet on his bucket list. (But he did vote for the defense spending bill that handed over sacred Apache lands to a foreign mining corporation. Maybe the Apache need to follow the Navajo example and apply the McCain solution.) Women's healthcare? Negotiable, if he's talking to a largely male audience.

No skin in the game.

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Response to okasha (Reply #419)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:09 PM

508. I thought he was one of the 1st

mayors in the country to sign off on a Pride parade... i think he even declared a gay pride day, 1985 or something as mayor of Burlington. Helped fund many local initiatives in the 80's for LGBT youth in Vermont. My understanding is he also has a had a long-standing positive relationship with the first peoples in the NorthEast.



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Response to druidity33 (Reply #508)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 01:00 AM

544. That's nice.

Burlington is a sprawling metropolis of 43,000 people, and a "gay pride day or something" is pretty underwhelming.

The First Nations population of Vermont is less than half of 1%, maybe 300 people. It's a homogenized milk-white state.

I'd be far more impressed if Sanders had done something more recent and more visible. Oh, wait, he has. He voted to turn over the Apache's sacred land at Oak Flat, AZ, to Resolution Mining, Inc.

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Response to okasha (Reply #544)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 06:17 AM

561. It was 1983...

here's a link:

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/06/30/32-years-before-scotus-decision-sanders-backed-gay-pride-march

and yeah.... that IS nice.

Any other candidate supporting gay rights in 1983?

As for First Peoples, you know Vermont is contiguous with a few other states. I happen to know he has visited the Cattaraugus res before and has met with their elders. He has helped win recognition for smaller tribes in the area as well...




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Response to druidity33 (Reply #508)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 07:48 PM

632. I thought he was one of the 1st

 

mayors in the country to sign off on a Pride parade... i think he even declared a gay pride day, 1985 or something as mayor of Burlington.


He was.

He does.

Just because some people don't know what they are talking about....

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Response to okasha (Reply #419)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:45 PM

531. You should read what he was saying 40 yeas ago about gay rights.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #531)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 12:48 AM

543. That's nice.

Unfortunately, decriminalizing homosexuality is hardly a clarion call for LGBT civil rights, still less for equal marriage. That's doubly true when it's only one of a list of unrelated items, including adultery, drugs, abortion and "etc," whatever "etc." might be.

If this is what is being claimed as "supporting gay marriage for 40 years," the claim is, er, BS.

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Response to okasha (Reply #543)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 07:52 PM

633. Unfortunately, decriminalizing homosexuality is hardly a clarion call for LGBT civil rights,

 

It was back then.


He is WAY ahead of Clinton on civil rights.


Too bad you are wrong.... so often...

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #633)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 11:55 PM

643. Nope.

He carefully buried his whispered call for decriminalizing homosexuality in a list of other behaviors deemed "immoral."

The clarion call was sounded at Stonewall several years earlier, and when Anita Bryant began her witch hunt, followed by the HIV/AIDS epidemic, we LGBT's were pretty much on our own. Bernie was nowhere to be seen or heard. A short letter to a minor paper in a remote state gets no points.

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Response to George II (Reply #391)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:41 PM

530. I guess it depends on the definition of "you"

This alternet piece covers some of the major Civil Rights stances over 50 years which includes standing up for black, brown, LGBT, and women's issues.

http://web.alternet.org/election-2016/20-examples-bernie-sanders-powerful-record-civil-and-human-rights-1950s

Here are the first 4:
Here are 20 ways Sanders has stood up for civil and minority rights, starting in the early 1950s up to the present year.

1. Raising Money For Korean Orphans: International solidarity was an unusual concept for any American to have in the 1950s, let alone a high school student. But one of Sanders' first campaigns was to run for class president at James Madison High School in New York City. His platform was based around raising scholarship funds for Korean war orphans. Although he lost, the person who did win the campaign decided to endorse Sanders' campaign, and scholarships were created.

2. Being Arrested For Desegregation: As a student at the University of Chicago, Sanders was active in both the Congress on Racial Equality (CORE) and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). In 1962, he was arrested for protesting segregation in public schools in Chicago; the police came to call him an outside agitator, as he went around putting up flyers around the city detailing police brutality.

3. Marching In March On Washington:Sanders joined the mega-rally called by the leaders of the civil rights movement, a formative event of his youth.

4. Calling For Full Gay Equality: 40 years ago, Sanders started his political life by running with a radical third party in Vermont called the Liberty Union Party. As a part of the platform, he called for abolishing all laws related to discrimination against homosexuality.

If you read the article you see more examples that show a pattern of supporting civil rights long before it became safer to do so.

And here is a video where Bernie speaks about his ideas on racial justice the night BEFORE the Netroots Nation protesters.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #530)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 07:26 AM

566. Why bother trying to argue with people like that when they give you the

fuck you attitude. It's amusing that they squeal like children when anything is said about Hillary Clinton and then they do the same. Hypocrites.............

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #566)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 06:00 PM

610. The results are in.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

What a truly nasty post. Posts were hidden in this thread that were far less offensive than this.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Aug 18, 2015, 02:57 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If this post gets hidden, it won't be because of me, regardless of whether or not previous posts in this thread have been hidden.

It's politics, and there is a tendency to get a little passionate at times.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is nasty, but aikoaiko is, in fact, responding to posters who are devising tests for Bernie that are not possible for him to pass as they do not give two bits about the facts. Whether George II, okasha or others like it or not, Senator Sanders has been supporting civil rights since Hillary, in a youthful indiscretion, was a Goldwater girl. LEAVE IT.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to cloudbase (Reply #610)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 09:43 PM

639. Thanks for posting that

Not surprising at all.

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:53 PM

97. Now, HE is a supporter Senator Sanders would be proud to have in his court, imo...

He 'gets it'!

Thanks for posting this, it is a must-watch, imo.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #97)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:12 PM

130. +1. but then, i have heard the same from a handful of sanders supporters on du, i respect so

 

i may hold other positions and i am gonna express those other opinions. respectfully. but the best, is sanders supporters that disagree with me, even strongly. respectfully. in just a handful of months the primary is gonna be over. there are a lot of sanders supporters i have respected, admired, valued and appreciated for a decade. i would hate to lose that over a couple months of disagreement.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #130)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:17 PM

145. Senator Sanders has some wonderful, respectful supporters here for sure...

Unfortunately for them, they are too often drowned out by others whose behavior is detrimental to both the candidate and the campaign. Hopefully it will die down sooner rather than later.

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:28 PM

162. Jay Smooth on HRC's last run: "If you were going to make you would have by now"






to be continued, indeed.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #162)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:49 PM

475. What does that video have to do with the legitimate concerns sonderwoman raised?

It seems you casually dismissed her as she was unworthy of serious attention. It is that air of easy condescension and effortless dehumanization that has brought us to where we are now.

Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man' beckons.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #475)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:58 PM

481. I thought this is the subthread where we post stupid JaySmooth videos because she did.





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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:52 PM

319. "Someone needs to defend Bernie Sanders... FROM HIS OWN SUPPORTERS"

FUCK. YES!!!!!!!!

Adding this dude to the long, long, LOOOOOOOOONG line of people who see the damage these people are doing and have had an absolute GUT FULL.

Sanders needs to get a hold on these people yesterday. They are a poison to his campaign and are really starting to overshadow his message entirely.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #319)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:06 PM

388. No fucking shit. I have sat here watching so called supporters of my guy, Bernie,

act in such a counterproductive way, and after this is pointed out to them OVER AND OVER again, they DOUBLE DOWN!

Jesus.

H.

Christ.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #388)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:31 PM

420. "and after this is pointed out to them OVER AND OVER again, they DOUBLE DOWN!"

Yep. It is HYSTERICAL!!!!!!

And they actually think that shutting everybody up that calls them out is the solution, instead of actually STOPPING this insane, counter productive and straight up deranged behavior. In their heads, everybody is out to get them and to get Bernie. And they refuse to believe or to understand that right now, the worse thing Sanders has going for him... is THEM.

The repeated calling out of their destructive behaivor by liberals, progressives, black, white and everything in between is just "some pro-Hillary talking point" (according to the more clueless among them) that they have decided they don't have to listen to as they continue to haunt the steps of everybody who disagrees with them ESPECIALLY if the person doing so is blessed with melanin. But we're not supposed to notice that, I guess.

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:57 PM

323. Oh my God!! He actually said "What have you done for me lately??!"He must have read my OP

in the AA forum a few months ago!!!

SonderWoman, I would be so appreciative if you posted this video in the AA forum. It would be a welcome addition there. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1187

Wonder if the crowd that still refers to the fairly universal castigation of Sanders unhinged and unproductive supporters as "talking points" still believes that they are? Oh, who am I kidding. Of COURSE they do!!

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:04 PM

329. He is right. The supporters remind of that bumper sticker I see Oh Lord save me from your followers

His supporters have turned me off completely and I won't be back for a second look.
The BLM action from Sanders came too late and his supporters are not people I would want to be associated with.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #329)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 05:45 PM

602. Bernie's supporters prevent you from voting in your own interests?

 



--imm

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:10 PM

461. Uh huh, but Hillary's folks are just as open minded as they come

Anytime some Hillary supporter accuses a Bernie supporter of being racist, the appropriate response is this:

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:46 PM

5. He's great at identifying obvious problems, not so great at...

 

Providing any solutions to fix those problems other than taxing people. Which is probably why he hasn't released any policy documents.

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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:38 PM

305. Bill Clinton was in the White House for 8 years. Hillary was with him.

They offered no solutions for these problems either. In fact, their tenure in the White House worsened a lot of situations.

And then after their tenure in the White House, they further shined up to people like Pete Peterson, major foe of Social Security. Bernie wants to raise the cap to pay for strengthening and expanding Social Security. As a retired person who has a lot of friends who are retired, I can tell you that 401(K)s are not where it is at for insuring the survival of people past the retirement age. Social Security is. It is reliable and although it pays very little, it means survival to the large majority of us. For many older people, it is their only income. And as world trade expands and swallows up the best paying jobs in America, the pittance that Social Security pays its recipients is going to mean the difference between food on the table or an empty stomach for many, many seniors. Hillary is weak on Social Security. Watch her response to Obama when he suggested raising the cap in the 2008 debates. She is way out of touch with the reality of seniors in America. Sanders is not out of touch.

Hillary does not get the big bucks for speaking to wealthy and corporate America for nothing. She is talking to the investor class for those big bucks. They know what they are buying when they pay her. I want someone who owes me favors, not someone who owes favors to Goldman Sachs.

I want Bernie Sanders. And so do a number of Americans like me.

Democrats in Congress need to learn on which side their voters' bread is buttered (and had better worry about whether it is being buttered). They need to stop worrying about Wall Street and the corporations and start worrying about Main Street and the American people.

It is not the job of us the voters, the people, to vote for a president that members of Congress and our party leaders like. It is the job of the members of Congress and the leaders of our party to support the president we like and elect.

Let's get our shoes on the right feet here. Congress serves us, not the corproations. That is, the members of Congress who want to be re-elected serve us and not them, not the corporations and the party elite.

Free college tuition.

As for the damage that a tax to fund college would do to 401(K)s? That is the concern only of people who have 401(K)s. The damage that greedy managers of 401(K) accounts do to your 401(K) should be of greater concern than the cost of a few pennies of tax per trade to fund your kids' college educations.

In the sum of things, it is probably cheaper to pay the tax and get free college. Someone needs to do the math, but be my guest. I like the idea of taxing Wall Street trades to fund free college for the next generation.

Many wealthy people take the money they make on Wall Street and set up trusts to fund their grandchildren's education. Why don't we do that as a nation? Isn't that what investment is about, putting money aside to fund a better future? So people who have money in the stock market take home a little less in order to put money in trust for other people's hard-working talented children. What is wrong with that idea? I really like it.

401(K)s are the domain of people making way over the minimum wage or even the average or median wage and a tax on them should be imposed to help pay for college.

We need higher capital gains taxes, not lower ones.

Here is the system we now have.

After high school (whether completed or not), young people go to university, technical schools, junior colleges, the military, straight to work or remain unemployed on the streets.

Most of those who attend post-secondary schools whether university, technical, or some sort of college graduate in debt. The interest rate varies from maybe 3% to 7 1/2 or 8 1/2 % (what I paid for one of my post graduate degrees). The debt adds up. If your parents aren't wealthy or at least middle class and you become a doctor, you graduate with enormous debt. If you graduate to become a teacher, your debt is very great compared to the income you will likely earn. Same for nurses, for technical jobs, same for all professions, all lines of work.

The weight of that college tuition, trade school tuition, post-high school tuition is weighing down our economy. It is preventing young people from being able to take jobs that help society but don't pay premium salaries. It is preventing young people from being able to have children and buy houses and live their lives.

Meanwhile the already rich are doing very well. As the interest paid on student loans flows into the general fund with tax revenue, Congress has voted to lower the taxes on the very, very rich. In effect, students whose families cannot afford to send them to college, are being asked to fund tax breaks for corporations and the very rich. I'm agin' that. I'm ain' it and there is no excuse for it.

Bernie tells us what the unemployment rates are for young people. Around 50% for young Americans who are identified as Black. That is horrendous. The justice issues that are killing POC and destroying their lives need to be dealt with as the most urgent and most serious of our issues, but the economic issues that lead to masses of Black people, especially men, who are homeless and jobless, hopeless and prison-bound are long-term issues that need to be dealt with.

The Clintons were in the White House for 8 years. Bill Clinton set up a commission to study race issues. Why has so little, next to nothing, changed when of the past 22-23 years, Third Way Democrats who claim to prioritize social issues have been in the White House? Why are we still talking about police brutality when we have a Black president in the White House?

Maybe it is because we have not dealt with the long-range economic issues and have not really tackled the tough social issues.

I do not deny that the social issues are very important. Bernie acknowledges that. There is nothing new in saying that. The justice system needs to be changed to insure that our police do not profile people based on race and do not think or feel that they have a license to harass, jail or kill people based on race or neighborhood.

LGBT issues are being dealt with as society changes its attitude toward LGBTs. That is not the problem of the moment. That will take a little time, but not much. The anti-LGBT crowd is literally dying out as I write. But the LGBT marriage issue was based on the precedent that marriage is a fundamental right and not on whether being LGBT triggers discrimination issues, whether LGBT status is immutable, is part of our birthright. There is a lot of work to do on that. But Bernie was in favor of recognizing the equal rights against discrimination for LGBT people long before Hillary broached the topic. And again, what did the Clintons do about LGBT rights during their time in the White House? Wasn't it during those years that the Defense of Marriage Act passed?

We have undergone an enormous technological revolution. It is comparable to the revolution we underwent in the late 19th century, the industrial revolution.

As then, the new technologies, the new production methods worked havoc on old labor/management and other economic relationships. As then, it took a social revolution, then the populist movement, to deal with the new technological reality and the effect on that technological revolution on families, on the workplace, on society as a whole.

Bernie is calling for that social revolution. Will it improve the lives of LGBT people, of people of color, the world, when it achieves its goals? Yes. It will.

As I posted elsewhere, I really don't get out a lot, but in the last few weeks, I have talked at length with 3 or 4 people of the limited number of people with whom I have talked who are scared, really scared of losing their jobs and their livelihoods. Two of the three are relatively young and have children. The third is an upper middle-aged single woman moving toward the end of her working career but not yet ready either financially or in any other way, to retire. (At this time, that, I believe is when you are most likely to lose a job. I don't have numbers on it, but I think the people in their late 40s through early 60s are most vulnerable to being fired right now. It is absolutely shameful that that is so.)

People are scared for their work because their work means survival. And their work, no matter how much they complain about it, gives meaning to their lives.

The TPP is going to displace yet another large slice of the workforce. And, no, I disagree with the OP. We do not have to go there. We do not have to agree to the kind of plundering of our economy that international trade now brings with it. We can have international trade without plunder. The international trade we now have is being and has been negotiated by corporations and their purchased spokespeople in Congress and in the administration.

Bernie has other plans for the inevitable move toward an international economy. I am solidly with Bernie on this issue. No to the TPP courts. Americans do not realize what those courts will mean to our nation. National parks anyone? I can readily envision scenarios under which corporations could force us to pay manifold just to be able to keep our national parks from them. And that is just one of many horrors that the TPP and even the existing international courts could impose on us. We do not want or need the TPP. We should not accept the imposition of TPP courts.

We cannot at this time afford to expand out involvement in international trade. That is not my opinion. One glance at our balance of trade deficit tells us that, no, we are not competing and we cannot compete at this time.

What do we need to compete in the global economy?

A better educated, better trained workforce?

A national strategy to compete that is decided upon through truly democratic means?

A government that is not bought out by corporations and Wall Street and big hedge funds?

I answer yes to these four key questions. So does Bernie.

Bill and Hillary Clinton had their four years. Bill signed NAFTA, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the Welfare Reform Act and a draconian bill on crime that has resulted in our having the largest percentage of prisoners of any country in the world.

The passage of NAFTA brought with it some sort of re-education legislation. Obviously, considering, as Bernie points out, that real unemployment is high in our country, that re-education legislation did not accomplish much. We do not need to allow corporations to sell more of our jobs to the lowest bidder. We need to stay away from agreements that give us no case-by-case right to turn down offers of free trade, to refuse to trade if the trade does not serve our national interests. What a bunch of hogwash the corporations are selling us when they speak to us of free trade.

And then we get to environmental issues. Had the Clinton administration done its job, we would have far more solar panels, a lot more alternative energy than we have today. The Clintons are not the answer when it comes to environmental issues. Hillary even refuses to offer her opinion or answer a question about the XL pipeline near one of our most important aquifers. On that basis alone, she is unqualified to be the Democratic nominee for president.

Considering the record of the first Clinton administration, I certainly do not trust either of the Clintons with the leadership and representation of the US right now. No thanks.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #305)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:48 PM

316. Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #316)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:48 PM

367. because the PUMAS claim she was co-president

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #367)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:06 PM

389. you are gonna have to start using puma for sander supporters. i have not seen one clinton supporter

 

say that they would not vote for sanders. i have seen many sanders supporters claim, state, insist and argue they will NEVER vote for clinton.

that would make those sander supporters.... your PUMAs.

point the finger the other way, dude.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #389)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:08 PM

393. Ding Ding Ding, you get the cookie for today

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #389)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:13 PM

396. But the hillarians invented that term for themselves. as for your first sentence,

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #396)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:15 PM

401. doesnt matter. it was a small group and had to do with a whole lot of other. you applying it to

 

anyone supporting clinton is a fail. it was about not voting obama. shoe is on the other foot. so we will just use the term by the definition as it applies to sanders supporters.

you a puma?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #401)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:41 PM

424. The PUMAs were an inconsequential handful of chest-thumpers who didn't live up to their threat...

...and neither with the "I'll never vote for Hillary" brigaed.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #424)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:45 PM

428. personally, i didnt pay attention in '08. supporting obama. doctorj though likes using it repeatedly

 

to insult ALL clinton supporters and i call bullshit. it would be sander supporters wearing that label in 2016,, if he really sees fit to continue throwing it around as if he is insulting a whole camp of supporters.

i am really clueless why he thinks he is being clever. i have been seeing him use it for a couple months. with hides. yet no desire to stop throwing it all kinds of people.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #428)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:52 PM

439. You don't remember them?

 

I still have nightmares....

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Response to artislife (Reply #439)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:54 PM

442. no. i did not pay much attention to the drama and trauma of your puma that shakes you in your boots

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #442)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:09 PM

458. Oh I thought you followed the election nt

 

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Response to artislife (Reply #458)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:10 PM

460. i did. puma was insignificant.

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #396)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:22 PM

408. Hillarians lol

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #389)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 02:23 AM

556. Oh please, like we'd vote for Scott Walker? Come on, too much is at risk, as usual for Dems.

 

I will gladly vote for Hillary, but right now I lend my support for Sanders. We're not stupid.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #556)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 03:18 AM

559. Good for you. Reason. I love it. Most of the sanders supporters feel

 

The same as you exactly for your reasons. I am omalley and not looking like he has a chance. I will enthusiastically support whatever dem. unfortunately too many sanders supporters declare they refuse to vote clinton. I agree with your assessment of that thinking

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #316)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:55 PM

478. "two for the price of one" was their calling card.



I see a lot of HRC supporters talking about her experiences as FLOTUS as part of her overall credentials for POTUS. You can't have it both ways and try to distance her from those years, too.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #316)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:26 PM

487. Because the OP talks about why the author supports Hillary rather than Bernie.

Hillary Clinton claims as experience her time in the White House.

Well, the Clinton administration may have been better than a Republican administration would have been -- but not by much.

We had a dot.com boom and then the bust came just about when Bush came into office. Bush made it millions of times worse than it needed to be, but we were already having economic problems thanks to Bill Clinton's and Greenspan's allowing the economy to run amok during Clinton's administration.

Booms feel great. It's like not taking your blood pressure meds if you have high blood pressure. You think you have a lot of energy. In fact that energy is taxing your heart. That was the problem with the dot-com boom. Thanks to the repeal of Glass-Steagall that slight recession and the Bush response to it and to the excesses in the markets threw our entire economy out of balance.

Bill Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall. The photo of the signing is a picture of greed.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #316)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:15 PM

511. That's all you got out of that? nt.



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Response to SonderWoman (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:17 PM

345. Very good point.

Yes he can identify obvious problems, but I find myself tempted to call him a "Johnny One Note."

GRANTED - many of his declarations on the economy make some pretty good sense, but just boiling every problem down to economics simply doesn't cover it. I seriously doubt that the greatest job with the best pay and benefits and even job security would NOT help a Black mother whose precious teenage son came home to her in a box, thanks to police brutality or gun violence.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:48 PM

6. Weak sauce. Might as well just call him "too extreme!!11!!!" nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:54 PM

13. I don't believe I listed "too extreme" as a reason

 

So why don't you just deal with the actual reasons I articulated?

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:56 PM

16. It was the gravamen of your post. As another poster mentioned, "you got yours, so...meh." nt

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:06 PM

28. I wouldn't pay too much attention

And as far as your question, you'll be waiting a while.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:45 PM

363. Your glaring denial that Bernie is a Democrat

 

He may not be a Democrat, but he sure as hell espouses true Democratic values.

Clinton is just a weathervane and will end up losing the primary after people realize that Bernie is a better candidate.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #363)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:52 PM

370. Then why does he have zero support

 

From the Dem caucus in his run for president? Sorry, you don't get to diss a group for 25 years and then expect support from them.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #370)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:55 PM

375. Ever seen the Congressional approval

 

Let Congress back a loser, and then realize that they are making a mistake after the debates. They will then change their endorsement to the right candidate.

Right now, Congress does not want to piss off the all-powerful Clinton/DLC/Third Way machine. I say primary them and replace them with one of the progressives that have signed on to the Bernie campaign - that will HELP the people, not the corporations.





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Response to MaggieD (Reply #370)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:53 PM

440. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Clinton's come to Jesus meeting with the Dems a few weeks back.

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Response to frylock (Reply #440)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:17 PM

485. LOL ... How effective would that meeting have been ...

 

If those Democrats had thought Bernie had a prayer of winning the Democratic nomination?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #485)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:46 PM

496. I suspect there will be a lot of praying after that first debate..

probably some soul searching as well.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #370)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:28 PM

489. What is particularly telling is the lack of endorsements out of the Progressive Caucus. n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #489)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:54 PM

499. Considering that Bernie is the founder of that caucus

 

tells me that those who are "progressives" are not really progressives but play one on TV.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #499)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:12 PM

510. LOL ... Really?

 

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

The Progressive Caucus isn't really Progressive?



This is bordering on tragic!

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Response to Romulox (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:07 PM

123. Has Sanders got any of his key proposals enacted into law?

Becoming POTUS would not give Sanders any sort of magic wand to accopmplish his agenda

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #123)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:23 PM

155. We know one major law Hillary helped enact: the Iraq War Resolution. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #155)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:37 PM

304. Keystone, banks,

I wonder where she is on the Iran agreement.

Let me guess. She will straddle the fence, neither supporting it nor attacking it, until all the polling is done.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #155)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:46 PM

314. There was only one Congressional member who voted Nay on

AUMF, Authorization Use Military Force and that was Barbara Lee, this was the funding and authorization of military force. The IWR was instructions for Bush to follow but he ordered the inspectors out before the inspection was completed. Yes Bernie helped to enact the AUMF.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #314)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 12:38 AM

538. IWR aka AUMF = the same vote.

 

The IWR, formerly called the Authorization to use Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, is the same goddamn vote, yet you continue to disseminate the lie repeatedly here. Speaks volumes about both you and your candidate.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #123)

Wed Aug 19, 2015, 01:43 AM

648. I'll disagree with MaggieD on that, he's gotten some good amendments passed

In particular his FQHC expansion in ACA was a great piece of legislation.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:49 PM

7. Got it.

Once I had made it career wise (economically)


You already got yours.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #7)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:52 PM

10. Yeah, I "got mine" and waited another 15 years for a smattering of civil rights

 

And, IN ADDITION, I helped others up the ladder. I own a very progressive company that is rooted in the values of treating workers well.

But hey, just because you know nothing about me, and the work I have done for liberal causes, and the values that I live everyday (using my economic success), don't let that stop you from basically calling me a republican. That's just what Bernie supporters do. I get it. See item #4 in my post.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:54 PM

11. The important thing is to pull up that ladder! Let's defend the haves against the have nots! nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #11)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:09 PM

34. Excellent example of why Bernie supporters are such a turn off

 

I actually said just the opposite of what you are implying I said. But you have no qualms at all about ignoring that, and trying to pretend I said something different than I actually said. SMH.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #34)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:42 PM

75. You were never amenable to Bernie's message. Yours is a series of excuses for doing

what you intended to do all along.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #75)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:30 PM

168. How do you know?

 

And why is it seem like a good idea to so many Bernie supporters do diss people that don't support him? That is the hall mark of his campaign thanks to his supporters. And the first thing many people think of when his name is mentioned at this point. Clearly most of you don't seem to understand that.

I don't see HRC or O'Malley or supporters of any other candidate for the Dem nomination doing that. I don't understand why so many of you think its okay to attack supporters of other candidates. Not a winning strategy, as you will see with PoC and other minorities if he does manage to get the nomination.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #168)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:54 PM

211. HUH?

Weren't you just dissing Bernie and his supporters??????????

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Response to roomtomove (Reply #211)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:58 PM

222. I am stating what you apparently cannot see

 

The elitism and stank of white privilege that emanates from so many that cheer him is a total turn off. I have not personally attacked anyone. I am speaking up about a group think and how they strike me as the furthest thing from progressive I have seen since the 2004 election where so-called liberals threw LGBT people under the bus.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #222)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:00 PM

228. Hillary is one of the most privileged white people in America. As are many of her supporters. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #228)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:04 PM

235. And Sanders demographic is?

What exactly?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #228)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:06 PM

244. All white people are privileged

 

You apparently don't actually understand the concept of white privilege. A lot of his supporters don't seem to understand the concept.

Maybe this will help:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67904-how-to-explain-white-privilege-exists-7-common-arguments-debunked

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #244)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:28 PM

416. Maybe they just don't agree

 

Seems like every time one disagrees with another they are accused of not getting or obviously they didn't read it or there's an attack on reading comprehension

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #222)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 09:32 AM

574. I'm a Bernie supporter and so is my

my daughter, her wife, my disabled son and many of their friends. None of us are "so-called liberals". I was speaking out for equal rights long before 2004. I saw many on this very board who supported Clinton and than Obama, tell our gay brothers and sisters to sit down, shut up and wait when it came to equal rights (I still campaigned and voted for Obama). When it came to ACA and I spoke about my concerns. I was called names told it was too complicated for me to understand. Yes I was too naive and stupid to understand something I had been dealing with since 1991. I had been fighting insurance companies for over a decade to get health care for my fully insured child. I fought to get laws passed in California (1994) regarding fair claims practices and pre-exisisting clauses. Yet I was told to shut up and sit down on this board by Obama supporters (I still supported and voted for Obama a second time).

My point is you will find supporters no matter who they support state things that are mean and sometimes downright nasty. If this affects your support than so be it. I think it is possible to support Clinton without denigrating a man who has spent a life time working for the people not the corporations. I also think it is possible to support Sanders without denigrating Clinton. Pointing out policy difference and how they stood on issues is not bashing.

Statements like your's below is the same as what fox has been saying for years with their "some people say" meme. I have seen this from both camps, we are hurting both candidates and our party when we do this. One will be our nominee, we will all be needed to support and get out the vote to keep the White House.

"The elitism and stank of white privilege that emanates from so many that cheer him is a total turn of."

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Response to roomtomove (Reply #211)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:22 PM

270. Good one!!

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #168)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:00 PM

225. Because the notion that you gave up caring about inequality because of some rude tweets is absurd.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #225)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:14 PM

257. Huh? I have spent 15 years advocating for civil rights

 

Not just for myself as an LGBT person, but in somewhat understanding the problems other minorities face, which is actually much worse than that faced by LGBT people because of their ability to pass.

Most of my beloved "progressive" brethren just don't get what it is like to live a life as a second class citizen. And I get that many have no concept because they have not experienced it, but the problem is they can't even be bothered to sit down and think about what it would be like to live under racism and discrimination their whole life. And apparently think it's "impolite" for those under constant attack to speak up or interrupt. It is beyond fucking clueless, IMO.

So your comments/personal attack on me are absurd.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #257)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:35 PM

299. What a broad, sweeoping statement.

"Most of my beloved "progressive" brethren just don't get what it is like to live a life as a second class citizen."

I'm sure met a representative sample of all the progressives in the country.

Look, you say you were closeted for many years. You just assume other white people aren't closeted? There's plenty of second-class citizenry to go around: gender, economic, religious, physical, and psychological problems can all be closeted, and just about everyone I know is stuggling with something they think they need to keep secret in order to get a job or stay in the good graces of family. You are making broad generalizations, not extending the very acceptance you have wanted during your own struggles. Remember that often the loudest voices are from minority populations - and by minority, I'm speaking about a small sample of the populace, not gender, race, or religion. This is especially true on the Internet.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #299)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:40 PM

308. I call them as I see them

 

And what I see is a pervasive attempt by Bernie supporters to throw PoC under the bus just like so called liberals did to GLBT people back in 2004. Sorry you haven't noticed. You may want to look again. I am hardly the first one to point this out.

And by the way, my son attended the rally in Seattle. He was disgusted by the crowd. Apparently I raised him right.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #308)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:04 PM

330. Thanks for proving my point by making a broad assumption about me. n/t

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Response to intheflow (Reply #330)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:07 PM

333. All I said about YOU was that you weren't paying attention

 

It's up to you, personally, to decide if you are with the white privileged elitists that have been dissing BLM. I don't have any idea if you are part of that crowd, and said nothing to even hint that you are. I have no idea.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #308)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:40 PM

360. Your son should be disgusted at the protesters

 

for interrupting an important message.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #360)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:54 PM

498. Welcome back.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:53 PM

95. I'm with you.

I'd have to get a personal phone call from Sanders explaining why he is not like his supporters before I'd even consider him.

As for POC, Sanders' supporters have poisoned the well so badly with POC any chance he ever had of getting their votes is gone for good.

And before anyone retorts he is getting POC support, one or two POC at his rallys does not constitute growing support.

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Response to Gman (Reply #95)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:00 PM

108. Air Porcine Flight #B-3RNI3 Reporting that we're seeing other porcine flying

 

on any chance for Clinton to secure the nomination.

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Response to Gman (Reply #95)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:17 PM

142. Bernie is us, we are him.

He says what most Americans already believe. As for policies we recognize he has values which will determine those policies and those values are the same as ours. Hillary continues to look untrustworthy, not because of her positions on issues. we realize she can write policies but we fundamentally do not agree that her policies will help our people and as far as Glass-Streagall, Elizabeth Warren who also spoke out for the people wants to do this to avoid risk. We like Warren and we trust her more than Hillary. so when you tell us, Hillary is right on opposing re-instituting Glass-Streagall in a very complicated area, we trust Warren , an economic progressive is right and Hillary is wrong. As far as being a democrat, I am a lifelong democrat and I regularly diss democrats when I feel we do not support the people. Warren is trusted. Bernie is trusted. Sherrod Brown is trusted. Hillary when she takes a different position on the issues from these three trusted progressives, is of course not trusted.
I do not need you to tell me about Glass Streagall, the Keystone Pipeline, Cap and Trade, or the TransPacificPartnership, I already have trusted individuals who have told me.
You Hillary folks do not get it. The progressive revolution is on. The class struggle that Obama avoided is on. Main Stream Media does not want to televise it, but will when we win. we are fanatics for the people. Now why do you suppose Hillary supporters are so quiet? It certainly ain't good will or a fair fight they want. They want to silence the people and Hillary is seen negatively for her unwillingness to call for more debates? What are you people afraid of? Lets debate.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #142)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:38 PM

180. He is not ME by ANY means

 

I actually understand that economic justice does not equal social justice because I have lived it, and if I didn't know that his heart is in the right place I would really loathe him for that stubborn idea. As it is, I think he's just another clueless old white man. And not just on that issue, but on most issues. IMO.

Again, rah, rah, that he is articulating the problems (just like every other Dem candidate). But his policy proposals show he has no clue. IMO, he is fooling a lot of under informed people. And even if he did have a clue he has shown he has no ability to build a homogenous coalition needed to make change.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #142)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:28 PM

356. Nah,

You're not gonna change my mind and vice versa.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:58 PM

448. Of course, Clinton was always leading the fight for your civil rights.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:52 PM

9. Very well articulated.

And I agree on all points.

Were BS the nominee, I would vote for him ONLY to keep the WH out of Republican hands, and for no other reason.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:42 PM

76. you say this about Bernie which implies he has no specifics:

I actually want to start calling him Captain Obvious, because he seems to be stuck on telling us what the problems are over and over and over again.

Then you say this about HRC without specifics:

HRC gets it. We need to find a way to beef up schools in urban areas with programs like head start and better funding. They should not take funding away from failing schools, they should increase it. Bernie seems oblivious to this.

I think bernie is aware of it. How does she get it? Where are her details? Odd OP to me,

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #76)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:47 PM

85. I think you've replied to me by mistake ...

... and meant to reply to the OP.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #76)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:41 PM

184. The post was already quite long....

 

But anyone who truly follows politics knows that HRC has incorporated very specific policy proposals on issues of race into her platform since she was in the WH with Bill. That's why she has so much support from the black community.

I know it's popular to say that black voters are just uninformed, but that is not true. It's just a back handed way of calling them stupid (see video above) for supporting her.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:54 PM

12. i agree with number 1.

 

he is totally obtuse to the unlevel playing field and shows repeatedly in the plans he has come up with.

and clintons economic speech.plan had me researching the whole glass steagal. uninformed, i just went along with sanders. informed changed the whole picture.

went right back to the dumb economic equality talking point. You know why? Because that is what Bernie truly believes.


i agree. and even now, to this day, asked about his campaign his first and only inclination is to say he is reaching out to working and middle class. ie, whites.

all his supporters like to rally around to prove he is some sort of civil rights champion have said that even back then he was convinced racial injustice was really rooted in classism.


yes. there is the difference of people that do not hear what he is saying, and those of us that DO listen to sanders and believe what he is saying.

2. i agree with this and it is very important and should be important to all of us. i too have concluded that he does not listens, he tells. clinton the opposite. listens, processes and speaks. omalley also.

3. again, i agree. an independent using the democratic party. in 1990 he made a deal with democratic party not to run a viable candidate so he could win, and he would give the democrats his vote. is that being bought?

4. he is reaching out to working class and middle class of the democratic, republican, independent, teabaggin', populist and libertarian parties. ya... not really the democratic base.

i agree with your post. very much exactly where i am sitting.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:54 PM

477. Anytime you'd like to discuss the finer points of glass steagal...

I'll be happy to show you in great detail the amount of damage its repeal has done. Clinton just pulled the band aid off, it had already been defanged long before he got to it. We need it back in its entirety.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:55 PM

15. Opinions differ.

 

I like Bernie. I like it because he's a Socialist and not the usual run of ambitious politicians. He's not locked in to nice safe Politics-as-usual and may well do some things to change the corrupt system that is now politics in America. Maybe/Maybe not.

I don't see Hillary as likely to do anything to change the system she now wants the job of supervising.

I'll vote for Bernie.

I won't vote for Hillary.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #15)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:27 PM

47. I agree.

I suspect Hillary is talking to the polls. Bernie has been living this. He's talking from the heart. I trust him to do his best.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:57 PM

17. Pathetic and disgusting.

 

It's shit like this that make me feel sad for this country.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #17)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:03 PM

25. Shit like what?

An opinion?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:39 PM

70. LOL ... Stop it! ...

 

I had to dry off my keyboard before I was able to type again.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #70)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:36 PM

176. Heh!

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:57 PM

18. He has been an activist and supporter of causes for his whole adult life.

 

He is attempting to transition into a leader. That is the "trust me" aspect of his change that many are having a hard time swallowing. The most interesting aspect is that he is campaigning as an activist. I think it is risky but we all get to watch and see how it will go.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #18)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:08 PM

33. This is true

He is steadfast, and we shall see

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:00 PM

20. I suspect that Bernie just isn't conservative (or Republican) enough for you.

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Response to Broward (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:21 PM

40. You suspect wrong

 

I have never voted for a republican in my life. And I am as liberal as they come. Being liberal doesn't require me to vote for Bernie. I have articulated exactly why I don't support him, and none of them has to do with wanting conservative policy enacted.

In fact, I think a vote for Bernie pretty much ensures we make NO progress on liberal issues.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #40)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:48 PM

317. Huh.

"I think a vote for Bernie pretty much ensures we make NO progress on liberal issues." - I don't see how anyone could say that about either Hillary or Bernie with any sense of reasonability. Neither individual is even close to being on-par with the GOP...and that's about what it would take to make no progress on liberal issues. Regardless of who makes it to the Whitehouse, it'll take support to get anything done. Bernie rightly stated that you could have the best president ever in office, and they will never accomplish much without the support of the American people.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #40)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:55 PM

322. you display a sad and scary lack of economic knowledge

especially about the banking industry.

That's OK. Many people are ignorant about many subjects. But they don't make baseless claims like you did.

When Clinton helped destroy our economy with his deregulation of Wall, he set into motion a series of events that continue to harm us. Banks used to have limitations that prevented fraud, scandal, and theft. Glass Steagall's demise was one of several factors that have led to the destruction of the middle class. It barred any one bank from acting as a commercial bank, as well as an investment bank,even as an insurance company. Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, signed into law by Bill Clinton, allowed commercial AND investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to become one. Even worse, that law prevented the SEC from regulating or even investigation bank holding companies.

The AIG fiasco is a prime example of the mess Bill created (which Hillary supports). Briefly, in most cases of insurance, an insurer underwrites and rates its risk, say on house fire losses. It knows that one out of 100 houses will burn down in any year. So, it charges its 100 customers enough to pay for that loss, plus overhead, salaries, profit, etc. THAT money is set aside as a "reserve." When the loss comes, the insurer has enough money stored away to pay for the loss.

Except when AIG insured the gambling on mortgages that was concocted by the likes of GOLD, man Sucks, and other financial giants (made huge by Bill), it NEVER SET ASIDE A SINGLE PENNY FOR RESERVES. Goldman got to say, "Hey, these are insured investments. We have AIG insuring them." AIG got to make incredibly huge profits on this line of business, since it paid nothing into a reserve. AND AIG never bothered to reinsure their own exposure. (Reinsurnace is a way of spreading risk, with other companies buying up part of the risk for a share of the profits) So when the first loss came in, AIG was out in excess of 150 BILLION with no cover, no assets, and no ability to pay. The US came in and bailed them out to the tune of $187 BILLION of taxpayer dollars, meaning that AIG kept its ill-gotten gains, Morgan Stanley was repaid from dollar 1, as was GoldMan Sucks for gambling huge on stuff they knew was going to fail.

All of that fiasco was due to Bill signing that statute into law. And Hillary supported it then, and supports it now. Bernie was one of the lone voices predicting this mess. He was chastised for not being "modern enough" about the world of finance.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #322)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:05 PM

331. I'm not the one who doesn't understand, clearly

 

Glass Steagall hadn't been enforced since 1978. You are the one that does not understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #331)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:14 PM

341. do you understand the term

"deregulation?"

Do you understand the bill that Clinton signed into law, and its impact on America? Obviously not. But, as I said, ignorance is bliss, especially in your list of Bernoise.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #341)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:17 PM

344. I look at facts

 

And the facts make it very clear that the repeal of Glass Steagall had nothing to do with the 2008 meltdown. Lehman, not a commercial bank; Country Wide mortgage, not a bank; AIG, not a bank; Merrill Lynch, not a commercial bank; Morgan Stanley, not a commercial bank.

Get it yet?

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #344)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:42 PM

425. Be patient, this is very hard to explain to people... the investment firms BECAME banks so they...

... could get bailout money.

Fargo, Citi, BOA wasn't the central problem, they were part of it but not the lion share

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #344)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:19 PM

512. Did you actually read what he wrote? LOL...you need to inform yourself it seems, this isn't solely

about Glass-Steagall, and he explained it very well. Maybe try a re-read?

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #331)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:24 PM

353. but the clenis went back in time and killed the law

kind of like the terminator.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #40)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:42 PM

362. And you think Hillary, who is to the right of, well, everyone else running for the Democratic

nomination will make more progress on liberal issues.

The Hillary Clinton who voted for war with Iraq.

The Hilary Clinton who is now and always has been at best a Centrist, at worst Third Way Democrat, or Republican Lite.



I personally believe that if Hillary Clinton was a man running on her same record, he would get eaten alive here.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #362)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:12 PM

395. that is incorrect. she is not right of everyone else running dem.

 

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Response to Broward (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:53 PM

373. ding!

 

The PUMAS, dinos, New dems, and so on don't want healthcare, public schools, peace, Pentagon cuts, Medicare expansions, ss expansion, and a $15 minimum wage. They're brainwashed in a similar fashion to Fox nation.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #373)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:14 PM

398. whose your puma?

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #398)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:20 PM

406. that's the name that the hillarians made up for themselves eight years ago

 

I assumed it still applies

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #406)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:26 PM

414. so i ask, are you a puma? will you vote clinton if she wins.

 

PUMA ("People United Means Action" was a political action committee in the United States that opposed the Democratic Party leadership and the nomination of Sen. Barack Obama as the Democratic candidate for President in the 2008 presidential election.[1] PUMA began as an effort of supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton who believed that Clinton should have been the Democratic nominee.[2][3] According to PUMA, "We [were] protesting the 2008 Presidential election because we refuse to support a nominee who was selected by the leadership rather than elected by the voters."[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_United_Means_Action

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #414)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:27 PM

488. PUMA meant Party Unity My Ass. It was adopted by the Clintonians of 2008 who objected to

 

an inexperienced black man interrupting that year's coronation. The similarities are striking.

As for voting for Mrs. Clinton, I am leaning toward not. My state is safe anyway. Though I didn't like it, I could shrug off Ms. Johnson storming the stage and assaulting Senator Sanders and bringing a Medicare rally to a premature end, and calling all white liberals "white supremecists". Crackpots gonna crack pots, and sjw's gonna w. But then Mrs. Clinton didn't speak out against it (the way Sanders blasted Trump and the Repukes' sexism toward her). Then she made up a story about meeting with #blm. Then her supporters decided Bernie and his supporters really are white supremecists. I don't want anything to do with such low-lifes.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #488)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:02 PM

502. "I am leaning toward not." tehn you be the the puma, not all those you accuse of.....

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #502)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:45 PM

516. In another post in this thread, you explain that

 

your son switched from Sanders to Clinton in the hope that it might help him score with a female Clinton supporter. So as I said I am not that interested in being a part of her support group. OTOH if they have a falling out, maybe he'll return to voting with his brain instead of....

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #516)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:51 PM

519. wow. why dont you make it as insulting to the girl as you can? no surprise. score? da puma.

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #406)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:51 PM

436. Well since it now their party

 

they don't want that kind of talk messing up the numbers....move along, good doctor.

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Response to artislife (Reply #436)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:53 PM

441. a HANDFUL of people.... a handful, per a nation.

 

PUMA ("People United Means Action" was a political action committee in the United States that opposed the Democratic Party leadership and the nomination of Sen. Barack Obama as the Democratic candidate for President in the 2008 presidential election. PUMA began as an effort of supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton who believed that Clinton should have been the Democratic nominee. According to PUMA, "We protesting the 2008 Presidential election because we refuse to support a nominee who was selected by the leadership rather than elected by the voters."

yet.... you are now giving it to ANYONE who supports clinton? isnt that like, dishonest, and like, wrong?

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:00 PM

21. How about you give us some examples of all the racist remarks you see every day.

 

There should be thousands by now so let's see some of them.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:07 PM

31. There are and you can look them up yourself

Don't be shy

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #31)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:51 PM

92. Couldn't find any so I guess the OP was wrong.

 

Thanks for the advice.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #92)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:03 PM

114. you didn't look

 

and I know why. You are pretty obvious yourself.... Maggie Q, is telling the truth about what is the reality in the BS campaign......lip service, but as the guy in the video said, "what have you done of me lately"?

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #114)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:06 PM

121. I did look, so not obvious.

 

And why is it so hard for you, MaggieD, or anyone else to give me one example of a Bernie supporter making a racist remark? According to her it should be the easiest thing in the world. And, there hasn't been one.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #121)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:18 PM

147. Aug 9, Aug 1, go find it yourself.

 

all you that want others to do your work for you, those days are over. Get that through your entitled, privileged heads, okay..geez I as well as many here and in etherland are in total agreement as to the assertions you find so hard to believe. It does not surprise me, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Truly sad.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #147)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:29 PM

165. Yeah I won't look up stuff for them either

I wasn't even talking about DU--although there's tons here too. All over the Internet asses are being shown. When even Thom Hartman and Occupy speak out against it--you'd think people would listen. They don't.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #165)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:16 PM

261. Seems some have learned the lesson well ...

 

get called out about something posted ... deny it exists/existed and demand that the other person find it and show it to you so that you can deny that it says what it says ... each and every time you are called out on it.

Does that tactic sound familiar? It proved quite effective for a "Pillar of DU", as the caller outer will soon tire of the routine.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #261)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:27 PM

287. It's far too familier

As well as bloody ridiculous. I refuse to play. I will admit, the first time it was directed to me personally I was taken aback. Then I thought "Oh Hell no"

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #261)

Thu Aug 20, 2015, 06:16 PM

671. It's part of what makes DU so boring ....too familiar

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #147)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:42 PM

185. I think heaven just called you a bigot, or maybe just an out-of-touch liberal

Get that through your entitled, privileged heads


That's polite-speak for rich, entitled, (probably) white and oblivious to your own bigotry.

I sure would like to see less name calling and more issues discussed.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #185)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:57 PM

219. you don't speak for me

 

don't even try to. You would be an utter failure at speaking what I think.......and if you really knew what I think, you wouldn't even try. You'd embarrass yourself, miserably.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #219)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:23 PM

274. I am sure that is the case for pretty much everyone

I was not trying to speak for you. Just trying to interpret what you were so carefully trying not to say.

The OP made a substantive post. Unfortunately too many of the responses have devolved into personal attacks.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #274)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 05:28 PM

290. The poster says what they want to say.

Stop trying to speak for them

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #41)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:53 PM

94. Uh, that's one person and no proof that they are Bernie supporter.

 

You want to try again? And, I expect more than one.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #94)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:59 PM

107. That's what I thought

I could post 100 just like that and get the same response.

Not wasting my time with you. It is what it is.



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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #107)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:02 PM

113. Is that one poster a Bernie supporter?

 

If you have at least 10 (not 100) I would gladly that are actual supporters I would gladly agree. That should be easy, right?

Owned.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #113)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:05 PM

118. Good Lord

Note: favorite group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=150862

You're embarrassing yourself at this point.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #118)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:08 PM

126. So you can only come up with one and I'm embarrassing myself.

 

Not really good with facts and numbers, huh?

Explains everything we need to know.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #131)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:14 PM

134. Why should I be careful?

 

I have no problem with facts.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #134)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:15 PM

137. Yeah, we're done here. nt

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #137)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:17 PM

143. Yep. We are. n/t

 

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #107)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:50 PM

368. Exactly

 

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #41)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:59 PM

105. Now you KNOW how this is going to go ...

 

"... That's not racist?" ... Hell, if calling a Black person a "race-nagger" didn't make the grade nothing short of the N-word will.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #105)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:00 PM

111. Predictable as all get out

You called it correctly.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #105)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:19 PM

150. Except it didn't. n/t

 

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:23 PM

42. If you haven't noticed them then....

 

I have to believe you are either oblivious to them or do not want to see them. They are pervasive as many commenters and authors of articles about the situation have also noted.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #42)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:54 PM

100. So, you can't prove that you say happens all of the time.

 

That's not on me.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #100)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:51 PM

201. No, I refuse to play your games

 

I am also not going to spend time trying to prove to you that the sky is blue.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #42)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:59 PM

224. I know a guy............

eom

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:02 PM

22. Wouldn't this post be more aptly titled "Why I support Hillary Clinton"?

 

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:04 PM

26. Because she declared her blood oath to Hillary anyway

 

that means she must ignore every viable candidate, and attack supporters of said viable candidates.

When Clinton loses her primary, what is MaggieD going to do? go PUMA?

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #26)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:07 PM

30. Where did I do that?

 

I do like HRC, but at this point I am pretty much "any progressive EXCEPT Bernie."

I would support Warren, Gore, Biden, etc. But I would rather just not vote in the primary if Bernie was the only one on the ballot.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #30)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:26 PM

46. You still haven't said what's wrong with Bernie.

 

In other words, your rant was TL;DR

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #30)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:37 PM

64. You would support any candidate that isn't running.

Rather convenient that you don't mention any of the other candidates actually running for president. No love for O'malley at all?

I have to tell you that I support Bernie Sanders first and foremost and I will only vote for your candidate if there is no other reasonable choice. If it is either Hillary or a republican I will probably pull the lever for your candidate but I will likely end up having to drink quite a bit both before and after voting for her. I will not be enthusiastic about it. Not one little bit.


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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:58 PM

103. Which clearly shows her bias.

 

Completely ignoring O'Malley while naming people not running.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #103)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 10:28 AM

582. Pretty much

This whole post is just a rehash of the anti-bernie spin for the last three months. It is like a 'best-of' post only terrible.

There are very few actual facts in the thing when you analyze it.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #582)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 10:36 AM

584. It helps in one major way

 

But only if you place the people who recommended this thread on ignore. Fixes DU right up.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:06 PM

27. No, because I am in the "anybody but Bernie" column now

 

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:39 PM

68. so if he does become the candidate are you saying you won't vote or you'll for some other party?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:53 PM

372. If Bernie does win.

 

Expect the Clinton supporters to do a repeat of 2008.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #372)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:18 PM

402. and what would that be. a handful not vote sanders? do not expect it. not a single clinton

 

supporter has stated they would not vote sanders. many sanders supporters has insisted, argued they refuse to vote clinton. let elsewhere for your failed supposition.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #402)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:20 PM

407. Failed supposition? Here's why.

 

Bernie attracts people from all political spectrum - many of them Independents or Republicans who are changing their party status to Democratic to vote for Bernie- and if Bernie doesn't win, then Clinton won't be able to keep the new Democratic voters because they changed for change, not for tired old status quo.

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #407)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:28 PM

417. so? oh my. we will lose the repugs teabagger and libertarians.

 

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #372)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 02:02 AM

551. I suspect you are right. That was pretty ugly. nt

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:08 PM

124. I looked up your rec's.

 

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:14 PM

133. I do so applaud your candor

 

and truth. The usual suspects are doing their tried and untrue best to besmirch, distract, diminish and lie concerning your truthful OP, it's been bad here. They are getting good people banned for saying less than you have about their 'super' candidate. I surmise a lot of libertarians, tea party minions and the rest of the extreme RW ilk are drifting into his camp, especially since they are so confused themselves. The level of vicious, racist vitriol brought against anti-BS folks here and on the internet forums and social gatherings is amazing.

Thank you for a fresh new voice being added to the growing camp of people who are critical thinkers, for themselves, not aligned with the lock step BS crowd. IF, big if, he is the GE candidate of my party he will have my vote, the same goes for HRC or any darkhorse that might rise from the ashes of this candidates flameout and crash.

Again, I applaud you....

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #133)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:07 PM

334. Thanks heaven05, your posts are always enlightening to me. n/t

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:44 PM

187. now..

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:02 PM

23. I wasn't so much against Sanders as I was for Hillary

She has my unqualified support.

Sanders, now, I have so much disgust at his social-media followers, that I project onto him. I try not to do this so I can remain objective.
With two exceptions, my RL friends who support Sanders are politically naive, and now even they are re-thinking support because of the atrocious behavior of so many followers.

It is an ugly,ugly situation. DU is only one thing, unmoderated free-for-alls out in Internet land are far worse.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:28 PM

51. You cite part of the problem "unqualified support" for Hillary. Since when does any free-thinker

give Unqualified Support to anybody. I thought most of the locked-in-step were in the other party.

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Response to erronis (Reply #51)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:05 PM

119. ...

 

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Response to erronis (Reply #51)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:31 PM

170. Yawn.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:13 PM

132. You demand qualification for Bern, but no qualification necessary for Hill? Weird.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #132)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:32 PM

172. What are you talking about, exactly?

You think I get my political information from DemocraticUnderground?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:27 PM

161. Sounds a bit short sited...

 

What is it about Bernies social media supporters? Are they all in uniform attack mode?

That they are sceptical to anyone taking the dough from Wall Street?

As far as internet goes, it's an ugly world onto itself. Projecting that over to Bernie is...as i said a bit short sited. And then others come and accuse his supporters for being racist, and "elitist", it seems that balance has been restored after all that "Hillary bashing".

But there is one thing to take into consideration. Most people are sick and tired of political monarchies. And to make Bernie into some Manchurian Candidate, is wrong. Anyone who's ever seen the big bicture over the last 30-40 years have seen that more and more democrats have gone away from the FDR plattform, have grown spineless, or just plain bought like the republicans.
Many considers Hillary to be a corporate democrat who only AFTER Sanders threw himself into the campaign that she started to speak meekly about the same things as Bernie. She does not sound sincere. She doesn't have open rallies.
Her other weakness is her lack of will to answer questions straight. She doesn't speak with people or listen to them. She speaks over them.
She is like the strict principal whom everybody is a bit afraid of. Bernie is like the cool teacher that everybody loves. If anything, he also reminds me of my deseased grandfather who passed away when I was freezing and alone at Christmas in Ireland. I trust wisdom, honesty and courage.
(Pardon for the emotiona digression)

And he is not establishment. And he is right on line with the Roosevelts regarding economical policies.

If I may come with a few words of foreshadowing; the future of your country lies withing the democratic primaries.
It will be your choice. Will you go for more money in politics, or will you go for a fundamental reform before you do anything else?



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Response to Bohemianwriter (Reply #161)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:34 PM

174. Say What?

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Response to Bohemianwriter (Reply #161)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:11 PM

523. She is a Washington insider, status quo preserving, $2700/plate candidate. If you have $2700

to spend on a meal then she probably is your candidate.

Bernie is my first and only choice. I am sick of focus group obsessed candidates. Answer the questions, and answer them candidly, or shut the hell up.

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #523)

Thu Aug 20, 2015, 06:54 AM

663. If I had 2700 on hand...

 

I'd go on a holiday tomorrow.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:38 PM

515. unqualified support from the Dictionary

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/unqualified

complete and total, without any doubts


Synonyms and related words
Complete and thorough:thorough, total, pure...

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:02 PM

24. Electioneering junk. nt

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Response to ladjf (Reply #24)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:29 PM

52. Agree. And this pollution is what they want to do. Stuff the airwaves with their junk.

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Response to erronis (Reply #52)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:49 PM

89. I really don't blame them. I just wanted to voice my opinion about

the material.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:07 PM

29. Thank you for sharing your opinion

 

I enjoy reading a wide array of viewpoints as opposed to an echo chamber.

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:08 PM

32. Gosh Maggie, how do you rationalize support for legitimizing Brunei as a favored partner even as

 

Brunei intensifies their anti gay laws to include death by stoning? That's a big part of why I oppose the TPP.
To be more accurate, Brunei is one of the nations that originated the TPP in 2005. The Sultan wants the economic benefits of globalization. At the same time, the Sultan has passed ultra conservative religious based laws for the public which he says will serve to insulate their culture from this globalization he wants to profit from. So these laws oppress and punish a variety of people, women and gay persons of course facing the worst of it, but no one getting a good deal on this save for the Sultan and his family, exempt from the laws and exclusively entitled to the profits as absolute monarchs.
Very hard to support an agreement when one party to that agreement says that in order to live with it they have to execute their gay people by stoning. Can reasonable people, as you say, disagree on this? I am not so sure about that.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:21 PM

39. Helping Brunei become a more civilized country will do more than doing nothing. Sorry.

 

No one agrees Brunei's behavior is acceptable. But shunning them won't help a bit. Probably makes it worse. What we know of the agreement requires improvements in human rights. Is it enough in this case -- probably not, but it's better than nothing.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:27 PM

48. Brunei is a very wealthy country now, with many holding in the United States.

 

They are currently not being shunned at all. This agreement simply adds legitimacy to a relationship that really should be sanctioned not rewarded.
It is offensive that you speak in such vague terms about human lives. Hyperbole and dismissal. 'Shunning them'. Jesus. You clearly know nothing about the place, the laws or the agreement. Fuck all,

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #48)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:33 PM

58. My guess is, if Brunei were not an issue, you'd come up with something else to oppose TPP and

 

Obama. Jesus.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #58)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 10:41 AM

585. Stoning gay people to death is not a valid issue to you? Jesus. I countered your view and now you

 

have no response so you just attack me? That demonstrates strongly that you are unable to defend the inhumanity of this agreement.

I also notice the OP is too fearful of the subject to respond to my question. Her silence is very definitive of her weak grasp on the politics.

That makes two of you supporting horrors you can't even attempt to rationalize.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:44 PM

78. "a guy who has lots of ivory is less likely to hurt Stampy than a guy whose ivory supplies are low.”

?w=512&h=384

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Response to MaggieD (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:09 PM

35. He won't be nominated.

Trust me.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:28 PM

49. Thats what they said about a guy named...

 

Obama.

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Response to V0ltairesGh0st (Reply #49)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:38 PM

67. LOL. Maybe u were thinking that but in 2004, most peeps

were like me, if he runs I will vote for him. PBO had a lot of buzz going into the 2008 primaries - lots of buzz. And he had the FLAVA.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #67)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:15 PM

138. Bernie has no buzz. These are not the droids you're looking for.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #138)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 07:42 PM

630. Obernie wan kenobi , you are our only hope

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Response to onehandle (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:28 PM

50. I'm a clairvoyant - Clinton won't win - but Bernie will win it all.

 

Clinton's path to nomination ends after Super Tuesday, with no viability AGAIN

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #50)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:32 PM

171. Even I am willing to make some wages on a Bernie win ;-)

 

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Response to Picking Dem (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 06:52 AM

562. ROFL

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Response to onehandle (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:55 PM