2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary supporter: I hope she "bows out gracefully"
Im a Hillary Clinton fan. But I hope she bows out with graceby Mary Dejevsky * The Guardiqn * August 17, 2015
Hillary Clinton has a fundraising pot that is overflowing. She appears to be cruising to the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination: and then, if the stars align in her favour, on to a well-deserved place in history as the first female president of the United States.
Her supporters have wished it for so long, it seems almost impossible that it might not come to pass. And I would count myself among those supporters, ever since as a Washington-based correspondent I watched the lobbyists gang up to defeat her health plan, and observed how she toughed out the sordid revelations about her husband and that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
Clinton, as she showed then and has shown since, is not one to walk away. She embodies that all-American quip about the going getting tough and the tough getting going. But I just hope that there are those, somewhere in her entourage, who are even now begging her not to do it, and to bow out while there is still time to do so with grace.
Reality must be looked in the eye. Clinton is a hugely divisive figure, including within her own party and not primarily because she is a woman. There is the clan question. What does it say about the meritocratic credentials of the United States that two of the most favoured candidates for 2016 are closely related to recent presidents? Neither is to blame but in my book, this alone would be a reason for both Clinton and Jeb Bush to leave the field. It is also a reason why they may not be electable.
Then there is the Bill question. A large section of the Republican party hates the Clinton name with the same venom that many Britons reserve for Margaret Thatcher, blaming Bill, as they see it, for defiling the presidency. This should not affect Hillary Clintons support but it will limit her ability to appeal across parties. Nor do US voters need to be dragged all over again through the intricacies of the (loss-making) Whitewater land deal, the involvement of the Rose Law firm, or the suicide of a close aide, but they probably will. And if these Bill questions are not enough, there is another where she really does have some explaining to do: it concerns her involvement with his post-presidential charitable fundraising at a time when she held public office.
Clintons chief liability, though, is the baggage she carries of her own...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/17/hillary-clinton-white-house-too-much-baggage
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Brilliant analysis.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)mahina
(17,715 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)she is the overwhelming favorite among Democrats.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)believable poll I saw? Or the overwhelming favorite of the DNC that is flooding my mailbox with pleas for money just this week?
Polls continually show that she has support among the vast majority of Democratic voters, and the vast majority of demographics within the party.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I never in real life run into Democrats, and I do hang around a lot of them doing activism and attending clubs, who are very enthused about Hillary. Most don't like her at all. Of course, it might just be the conservative area I live in.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)I don't know why politicians waste their money on pollsters when they can just call you, and ask what the "people you hang out with" think.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)They should call me - I now live in a deeply red state and everyone I talk to can't wait to vote for Hillary. I thought at first they were putting me on but turns out they are sick of the men running the country. Go figure.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)You just painted her as Republican Lite which we all knew.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)And it's gonna happen DURHAM D.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I never in real life run into Democrats, and I do hang around a lot of them doing activism and attending clubs, who are very enthused about Hillary. Most don't like her at all. Of course, it might just be the conservative area I live in.
Right back at you...
What a reficulous post.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... the minute they read this "article" cited by the OP - and realize that those chemtrails really are the devilish work of the Clintons.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I thought you were a notch above the usual when you lost an argument.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)I just lost the argument? HRC is still way ahead in the polls. Exactly which argument am I - and the rest of her supporters - losing?
And yeah, the chemtrails reference was a "red herring" - a herring that just swam past you when you weren't looking.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... why that's even funnier than everything else you've posted in this thread.
Maybe someone will point it out to you eventually.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)And you STILL don't get the joke - major loss on your part there.
Sometimes it's just fish-in-a-barrel season, and it now seems to be upon us - red herrings and all!!!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Well, that's face saving I suppose.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... for a long time in this thread.
Sorry it's taking you so long to catch on. But I can understand why.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)and sir grain elevator were having, which is okay. That's what PMs are for. However, when you lose the argument and have to divert it to that kind of reference, you threw a red herring into the conversation because you didn't want to continue it.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... what argument you think was being debated here, or what you think I lost. Nor do I care.
But this thread has been amusing beyond all imagining. And it's people like you who keep the amusement coming on a regular basis.
So thanks for that !!!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Good night.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Reality based folks are so amazing.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... you've got to post pretty early in the morning to get a chemtrail past them.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)They might get the truth. Instead of scanning their spread sheets and collecting their fees, they might figure out the people they are polling are about as useful as focus groups. I really don't understand why any company or otherwise wastes money on those. I used to do them for the money and lunch. I told them whatever they wanted to know.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)No point in wasting money on that new-fangled scientific stuff and all. Better to call on "someone in the know", such as yourself, to find out what's really going on.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I doubt if any honest, real scientists would agree.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)...
WTF DU.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Even though it has a missing part it is more accurate than the author of this OP.
PS - You can take that to the grain elevator.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)It is money in the bank so why are you laughing?
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)sign if they do the same for Hillary?
I'd love it if Hillary turns your state blue
Cleita
(75,480 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)that Hilary will attract rich republicans and Bernie is more likely to attract libertarians...?
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)be someone is not old enough to vote.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)That has more to do with holding appointed office here in CT though...we have partisan quotas for appointed boards of state and municipal commissions. There was an open unaffiliated seat on my town economic development council so I re-registered as unaffiliated, waited 90 days to be eligible to hold office as an unaffiliated and applied.
Usually only the GOP pulls that trick...but I'm all in favor of co-opting successful tactics, regardless whose playbook they're out of. Now progressives control my local EDC.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It's as if they were written by two different people; the second not reading what the first wrote before responding. You could actually start an argument with yourself.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)Or are you talking about a poll in New Hampshire, that state next door to Vermont with FOUR electoral votes?
I could certainly find it believable that Bernie would get those votes.
MADem
(135,425 posts)poll of NH voters (who are pretty much white people and there are a ton of independent voters there--it's a good litmus test for GOP candidates but it's not as predictive for Democrats). Of course, the Herald thought Romney was a shoe-in, and Scott Brown would handily defeat Elizabeth Warren.
So much for their prognostication skills. I wouldn't extrapolate much from that. I also think they may have been pushing the MOE envelope to draw that conclusion.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Is the one that says what you want.
If you ask nicely, maybe you can get unskewthepolls.com from the guy who was convinced Romney was winning.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The problem with the e-mails is not that they exist, but what they show about the State Department under Hillary, how closely linked to multinational corporations she is.
What good does it do to have a foundation that tries to help people in underdeveloped countries if at the same time you are supporting policies and strategizing to wrest from people in a poor country, control of their natural resources like oil and gas.
See this video from ReakNews -- both parts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017286974
And the article in the Guardian is saying what I have been saying. Hillary is not going to get any cross-over votes or any new converts to the Democratic Party. Ot should I say very, very few of them.
Fact is, that the Republicans have stirred up propaganda whether true or false makes no difference against her for years now. She will have a tough time overcoming that fact.
The numbers of foreign countries and very wealthy people who have donated to the Clinton foundation also will at some point raise questions about the perception of conflicts of interest. The Clinton Foundation no doubt does wonderful work, but Hillary should have decided whether to raise funds for her Foundation or run for president. She should not be pursuing both at the same time. She may believe that she owes her foundation donors no favors, but do they? And what happens if she doesn't deliver what they expect?
Hillary really should not be running. I agree with that.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)In fact, it's best not to at all.
Glad you got rid of the no fracking button. Made you look like a hypocrite.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)did you mean to reply to someone else?
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)She wouldn't concede the primary last time she ran even when there were no more contests to be had. It's all about her without a thought or care for the party or the country.
NEW YORK Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton Tuesday refused to bow out of the Democratic race Tuesday, hoping to maintain leverage as Barack Obama clinched the delegates needed to secure the party's nomination. Clinton told supporters in a rally at Baruch College that she would consult party leaders in coming days on how to move forward, but that, "I will be making no decisions tonight."
"A lot of people are asking, 'What does Hillary want?'" Clinton said. "I want what I have always fought for: I want the nearly 18 million people who voted for me to be respected and heard." Clinton told the crowd she would consult in the coming days with advisers about the fate of her moribund candidacy. But her remarks came hours after she told congressional colleagues she would be open to joining Obama as his running mate.
<<snip>>
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24953561/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-refuses-concede-nomination
Obama wins Democratic nomination, Hillary ignores reality
As the odds get longer and longer, the obvious question is: Why doesn't Hillary Clinton gracefully concede defeat and throw her support behind her party's defacto nominee, Barack Obama? As my colleague at Salon, Walter Shapiro puts it: "What motivates her? Is it ambition, pride, feminism, vindication, public service or ideology? Or is it some combination of all of them?"
The decision, Peter Keating, former senior writer for politics at George who now covers sports business for ESPN, suggests is "how much she wants to hurt Obama. And when she equated 'white Americans' with 'hard-working Americans' in attacking Obama last week, she signaled that she's still willing to campaign destructively. As long as Hillary is playing with her knife collection, she can make Obama bleed."
<<snip>>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/13/hillary-agonistes-why-doe_n_101618.html
sheshe2
(83,954 posts)Declaring himself a Democrat?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)plus years.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)But seriously, when do you think Bernie will actually become a member of the Party he wants to support his political ambitions?
He wants our support, our money, and our votes. Do you think he'll ever think we're worthy of his being one of us?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)Sorry to break in here.
What the hell does this mean?????
Hillary is divisive because she is a woman? Did I read that right? WTF!
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Clinton is a hugely divisive figure, including within her own party and not primarily because she is a woman.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)here's the official DNC front page:https://www.democrats.org/
sheshe2
(83,954 posts)He can say he is a socialist democrat all he wants, yet he is in fact an Independent and always was.
Wanted to primary President Obama for 2012. Hmmm, outstanding Democrat, oh wait he is not.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)is running under has accepted him as a candidate?
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)he has it figured out. Trust me all the other candidates, both Republican and Democratic, would be on this like wildfire if it was a real issue. Well, maybe the Donald might try some asshole stuff.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)he has it figured out.
So when is he changing to the party he is running for!
Hint....Democratic Candidate!!!!!!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)Voters no.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Are you sure?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)The parties control how their candidates are nominated. In fact political parties aren't even mentioned in the Constitution.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And even when we get to the GE, in our American system one vote on person doesn't really exist.
Cha
(297,802 posts)The writer of the article couldn't be much of a "Hillary fan".. if she's talking about her "bowing out gracefully"... Now! What a silly thing to say. She has no clue what's going to happen between now and the GE Election.. she obviously has no clue what a fighter Hillary is.. but, oh yeah.. she's "a fan".. LOL
Hillary isn't going anywhere except to the White House on her own volition. And, yes I have no crystal ball either.. but, I know she won't quit.
I swear.. the swill people come up with to make a deadline.
Yet
KnR what you said!!!!!!
Hugs Cha
Cha
(297,802 posts)the feeling. Night Owls, baby!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)Send me that link that he has switched parties. Link please, that he is now a registered Democrat.
TIA
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)He is not a registered Democrat.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)[youtube]
[/youtube]Cleita
(75,480 posts)Cha
(297,802 posts)Democracy and President Obama kept asking her to be his SOS and she finally relented.. and the rest is history.
I think it's given her invaluable experience for her future job as President.
Thank you!
and BS on the other hand wanted to primary a sitting President from his supposed party.
Cha
(297,802 posts)BS fans would alert and with "85% Bernie supporters on DU".. there's a very good chance I would get a hide.
So suffice to say.. I **** **** *** **** *****!
KMOD
(7,906 posts)and I have to say, I agree 100% .
Cha
(297,802 posts)hedda_foil
(16,375 posts)I spend altogether too much time on DU and read a lot of political/news sources, but I've never encountered this before.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)Let's hope, this time around, when Bernie wins
the nomination, things will be different.
still_one
(92,454 posts)disavows being a Democrat, then why should we as Democrats have him forced on us", of course it is a gross misrepresentation of the facts, so I guess it is only fair to start a thread quoting someone I never heard of saying that "As a Hillary supporter, I hope Hillary bows out with grace"
bullshit meets bullshit
excellent
What we need is more Donald Trump threads while we are at it
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Cha
(297,802 posts)Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I too hope she bows out with grace but I can't fathom it. She certainly won't anytime soon, she is leading.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)I dont for a second believe this author ever supported Hilllary. She makes some good points though.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)When I see a "I used to support Bernie but" statement and this is just as dumb. People that are paying attention enough to be hanging out here and have made a choice already aren't going to jump ship that easily.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... but this is absolutely, hands-down, without qualification and/or hesitation, one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen posted on this site.
I'm not saying it's the lamest attempt at serious political analysis - but it's definitely in the Top Ten.
"Reality must be looked at in the eye." And the reality is that HRC is still the Dem frontrunner, and that's not about to change.
That now-famous "baggage" she carries is the support of millions of voters - and, Jesus Hussein Christ, I hope she can handle the load, because it's pretty damned heavy.
I don't know who's dumber - the author of this bullshit, or the people who buy it.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)both.
CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)After the intern episode -- he should "step down" I heard more than once but it didn't seem to affect him at all.
As for Hillary ... *sigh*
delrem
(9,688 posts)kind of piece, mirroring the all too many OPs on DU that begin "I'm a Bernie supporter, but ....", which anyone who actually supports Bernie Sanders know are fucking trolls.
A difference is the amazing deference the article gives to Hillary Clinton in the opening paragraphs. Empty fawning.
The article doesn't examine any *issue* that Hillary Clinton actually handled, in government. It just vaguely points at the plethora of sex and money scandals associated with the name. Which, yah, is an issue all right. But e.g. Bernie Sanders supporters don't support Bernie because of Clinton scandals. They support Bernie on the fucking ISSUES.
So I wouldn't even throw Dejevsky a bone for this piece.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)especially after Bernie's self inflicted wounds at the hands of BLM. However, that does not mean that Hillary's friends do not need to tell her to stop acting like the person whose words seem chosen to offend the least amount of people and give the least amount of information. I actually blame her apparatchiks more than her, but the fact that they cost her the election in 2008 makes we wonder if Hillary learned anything.
AS far as her History though, this author proves that the British still have problem understanding us. If the GOP tries to play their 90's greatest hits package, they will find that people just do not care. It does not hurt that George Bush left a stink that still foul the air, and that the Koches cannot help but be painted as the arrogant aristocrats they are. If the GOP starts shooting with spent ammo, we have fresh ammo. If trump goes down, then Hillary can use the GOP's own base. Yes they hate her, but they hate the GOP too, especially as their machines also weed out popular candidates in favor of the person who acts centrist and will not trouble any power brokers. Multiply this by two if, despite being a mediocre campaigner, Jeb emerges.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I saw a lot of despicable race-baiting trolling of "white progressive" Bernie supporters on DU, saying that we're racists. But that's hardly proof of anything except the leadership of the Hillary Clinton faction on DU, since all that trolling came from that faction. We were trolled "just because", as eg. from the start just because we want to discuss Bernie Sanders' platform of economic reform.
I mean, WTF is with people like you, who accuse people like that?
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)That addressed Black people's situation from the get go. He could have had people like Cornell West help him, but he got idngnanant and said he did not offer the apology to BLM himself.
delrem
(9,688 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)was all Bernie offered until BLm made him whip up a plan in a hurry, a plan that should have been prepped long before.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I. The Burial of the Dead
April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.
Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee
With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade,
And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten,
And drank coffee, and talked for an hour.
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
And when we were children, staying at the arch-dukes,
My cousins, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went.
In the mountains, there you feel free.
I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter.
What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow
Out of this stony rubbish? Son of man,
You cannot say, or guess, for you know only
A heap of broken images, where the sun beats,
And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief,
And the dry stone no sound of water. Only
There is shadow under this red rock,
(Come in under the shadow of this red rock),
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
T. S. Eliot
C Moon
(12,221 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Hekate
(90,865 posts)Cha
(297,802 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)On my side, it's been the "I'm a Bernie supporter, but..." followed by slander after slander. Esp. suggesting that Bernie Sanders and supporters are somehow racist and --- "eeeeyeugh! I can't associate with flat out white supremacists."
The best are by DUers who fly a Bernie avatar. Oh, they're GOOD! Of the good ones the most excellent are the ones that explain just how despicable Bernie Sanders supporters are.
So for sure I know how low this editorial comment goes.
More interesting yet, that kind of no-brainer sloppy thinking is run by "comment is free" at The Guardian.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)thinks.
Cha
(297,802 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)sheshe2
(83,954 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)was facing when he decided to run. even though i'm a bernie supporter i want her to stay in the race.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)She is a crap writer. She is no "fan" of Hillary's. She is a fan of Putin however.
"the suicide of a close aide" - yeah right Mary, keep on with the right-wing-nut-job bullshit.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)"i am a (name) supporter, but....."
that said, a couple of good points were raised
the country has bush/clinton fatigue
hillary has too much baggage to win a ge
a revolution is happening which she can't appropriately represent because of her corporate ties and support
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Godhumor
(6,437 posts)That would be an interesting speech, for sure.
obnoxiousdrunk
(2,910 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I should vote for a candidate who will not inspire hatred from Republicans, a candidate who carries no baggage the GOP can exploit. So I should vote for.... um... a Republican!
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)6chars
(3,967 posts)Until then