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Would America elect a socialist to be President ? (Original Post) PosterChild Aug 2015 OP
Good thing there's no socialist running for the job. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #1
Um huh, right... PosterChild Aug 2015 #2
No worries, good buddy. We got this. HappyPlace Aug 2015 #4
Hum,.. cognitive dissonance ? nt PosterChild Aug 2015 #7
Hum....self diagnosis? daleanime Aug 2015 #17
Oh snap! HappyPlace Aug 2015 #24
Nice! beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #19
Read the wapo article about ... PosterChild Aug 2015 #25
Thank you for your concern. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #42
Didn't you know? Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #60
Last time I checked, they allow a Republican to run as well... brooklynite Aug 2015 #101
He heh, yes they sure did! HappyPlace Aug 2015 #102
Most people seem to understand that. I am surprised you don't. nt Live and Learn Aug 2015 #69
So, "labels" trump "policy" for you? NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #86
Enough with the trump already! redwitch Aug 2015 #91
Lables are important to people . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #93
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #119
Labels that are applied by others . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #122
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #124
In the case of sanders . ... PosterChild Aug 2015 #125
It was also assumed America wouldn't elect a black guy. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2015 #3
Not true . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #6
Depends on the socialist Armstead Aug 2015 #5
Don't think so... PosterChild Aug 2015 #9
Did you read what I said? Armstead Aug 2015 #15
There us a difference . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #30
The GOP routinely calls Hillary a socialist DJ13 Aug 2015 #56
Sure, but bernie... PosterChild Aug 2015 #95
Obama is the most frightful socialist of all time. He's still in office. Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #67
but it didn't and doesn't stick ericson00 Aug 2015 #10
The way you describe Presient Obama he sounds like a conservative Armstead Aug 2015 #12
was my statement inaccurate? ericson00 Aug 2015 #14
Conservative means a lot more than that Armstead Aug 2015 #18
Spoken like a true conservadem. Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #70
RE and doesn't call himself a socialist PosterChild Aug 2015 #16
What do you mean when you use the word "socialist"? JDPriestly Aug 2015 #28
What does the words mean... PosterChild Aug 2015 #43
Bernie thinks it means Sweden or Norway. I think it means Germany or Austria or France. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #51
Great! We will have a gop candidate ... PosterChild Aug 2015 #88
Bernie is simply the smartest guy in the room. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #97
Bernie may be the smartest man* in the room... PosterChild Aug 2015 #112
I don't mind witty retorts. Most DUers know I am a woman. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #117
+100 ! (Nm) PosterChild Aug 2015 #121
I know a whole lot of young people OnionPatch Aug 2015 #99
Because electing people owned by corporations has worked out so well for us. onecaliberal Aug 2015 #8
No, because .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #11
I guess you should stop using the socialist roads onecaliberal Aug 2015 #13
Yes, the roads... PosterChild Aug 2015 #20
And schools, and various agencies that keep our water and food and medications safe. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #131
You are right, We have nothing to fear. .... PosterChild Aug 2015 #137
Wbetber that happens or no depends on whether droves of Democrats stay home as they did JDPriestly Aug 2015 #138
The roads that were mostly built by private companies, right? FrodosPet Aug 2015 #80
Oh good Christ...That's a right wing talking point if ever I heard one Armstead Aug 2015 #21
I'm going to stop feeding it. onecaliberal Aug 2015 #27
I think you're rght. I'll just cross the bridge. Armstead Aug 2015 #31
Ditto. onecaliberal Aug 2015 #32
Stale, reheated John Bircher paranoia, right here on DU. arcane1 Aug 2015 #37
No, simply a concern for the electability . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #48
Post removed Post removed Aug 2015 #23
Thus us an over the top slur... PosterChild Aug 2015 #33
Nothing over the top PowerToThePeople Aug 2015 #38
LOL. A real fail ( nt) PosterChild Aug 2015 #45
It's not true.. and, says everything about you and absolutely nothing about your target. Cha Aug 2015 #77
Turns out you were wrong. I seriously wonder if you know what "fascism" is. George II Aug 2015 #87
That's why I call it corporatist. arcane1 Aug 2015 #40
Results. hrmjustin Aug 2015 #53
Ha! Good.. throwing around that word "fascism" as if he knew what it meant. Just bc BS is Cha Aug 2015 #78
It's only August 2015 - what will the rhetoric be early next year? They'll be throwing around... George II Aug 2015 #89
And, all in BS's name.. doesn't do their candidate any favors. Cha Aug 2015 #109
And here I thought Joseph McCarthy was dead PowerToThePeople Aug 2015 #22
If you ask peple in the abstract whether they willl vote for a socialist, they will say no. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #26
Actually , the label matters . . PosterChild Aug 2015 #34
We shall see. I'm volunteering for Bernie. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #54
Nope MohRokTah Aug 2015 #29
+100 ! (Nm) PosterChild Aug 2015 #35
Then you need not waste one more precious moment of your life mentioning him. arcane1 Aug 2015 #36
I believe.. PosterChild Aug 2015 #39
Cool story n/t arcane1 Aug 2015 #44
Not only cool, PosterChild Aug 2015 #46
55% thought Obama was a socialist jfern Aug 2015 #41
Think if he came out . ,, PosterChild Aug 2015 #47
We're all essentially socialists. Garrett78 Aug 2015 #75
The ignorant massess are actually right.... PosterChild Aug 2015 #83
Socialism is all around us and we'd be screwed without it. Garrett78 Aug 2015 #90
Why yes jfern Aug 2015 #130
Pointless shite whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #49
Funny when the Bernie haters can't even get information correct... SoapBox Aug 2015 #50
Um....no...he has called himself a socialist.... revmclaren Aug 2015 #57
"Bernie haters..".. right.. 'cause there are no "Hillary haters".. BS supporters are pure and would Cha Aug 2015 #79
The average voter . .. PosterChild Aug 2015 #110
Is a Socialist running? Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #52
Yes... revmclaren Aug 2015 #58
You're new. Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #59
Sorry, wrong again... Here since 2012 revmclaren Aug 2015 #62
2012! Oooooh! Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #65
I know...think of all the missed recs!!! revmclaren Aug 2015 #68
Whatever we say in arguing about what Bernie should or should not be called, PatrickforO Aug 2015 #55
The MSM and the repubs will eat him alive revmclaren Aug 2015 #61
You are so right. moobu2 Aug 2015 #63
Yep /nt/ PosterChild Aug 2015 #84
Well off to bed... revmclaren Aug 2015 #64
I think so, yes. lovemydog Aug 2015 #66
"Bernie's not a 'socialist'".... PosterChild Aug 2015 #139
I hope we find out. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2015 #71
I'm a Hillary supporter, but I don't think slamming socialism is really a winning tactic. Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #72
"Preserve the reforms of the Obama administration"... AOR Aug 2015 #73
I'm sure all four of you left at the Bell are going to Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #82
So you're bashing the Bell now also... ? AOR Aug 2015 #98
Haha. Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #100
Is "be the change you wish to see"... AOR Aug 2015 #104
You guys wrote your own pamphlet years ago. Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #106
Wow...I think I will take the last word... AOR Aug 2015 #108
still not sold on Bernie MFM008 Aug 2015 #74
Were there similar articles 8 years ago? left-of-center2012 Aug 2015 #76
Eight years ago? Heck... PosterChild Aug 2015 #136
Socialist!: beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #81
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2015 #85
Who asked? George II Aug 2015 #92
FDR x3 Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #94
Yes. LWolf Aug 2015 #96
I would rather be thanked . ... PosterChild Aug 2015 #113
It's getting desperate. Voting for criminal capitalists hasn't served the public's interest. NCjack Aug 2015 #103
People are learning the difference between "socialist" & "democratic socialist." senz Aug 2015 #105
You can run a serious campaign for president,.... PosterChild Aug 2015 #115
My Democratic Party Chair was attacked as a socialist for merely attending Sanders event Gothmog Aug 2015 #107
FDR got elected 4 times RobertEarl Aug 2015 #111
Was FDR a... PosterChild Aug 2015 #114
Well, sure. He proved it too. RobertEarl Aug 2015 #116
I didn't ask... PosterChild Aug 2015 #118
I don't buy it. Chan790 Aug 2015 #120
Trendsetter? Or ... PosterChild Aug 2015 #123
We don't have any socialists running at the moment Hydra Aug 2015 #126
I find the favorability of ratings of "socialism" to be strikingly high. David__77 Aug 2015 #127
We have socialism in the United States Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #128
Yes, it's right up there... PosterChild Aug 2015 #133
What is so frightening about it? Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #129
Nothing is frightening, unless... PosterChild Aug 2015 #135
Last time I looked, I am part of America, and I will vote for a Democratic Socialist. djean111 Aug 2015 #132
And as a liberal individualist... PosterChild Aug 2015 #134
I vote for Democrats, not socialists ericson00 Aug 2015 #140
+100 ! (Nm) PosterChild Aug 2015 #141

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
1. Good thing there's no socialist running for the job.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:57 PM
Aug 2015

Nice try but we already heard this talking point a brazillion times.

Keep up.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
25. Read the wapo article about ...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:20 PM
Aug 2015

... the impotance of electability an how it's importance increases as the process proceeds .

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
60. Didn't you know?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:01 AM
Aug 2015

Perception only counts with the word "socialism" but not with the word "emails." Ya gotta keep up with these things, HP.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
86. So, "labels" trump "policy" for you?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:29 AM
Aug 2015

If Bernie is a socialist, then fuck it, I guess I'm a socialist too. I could care less if he called himself a pig-fucker....he'd still have my vote. I vote policy and record over silly "labels".

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
93. Lables are important to people . ..
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:40 AM
Aug 2015

.... because they are predictive of direction, intent and future policy decisions. Current policy positions on specific issues are important but incomplete. It is reasonable and entirely rational to judge a candidate on her idelogical tendencies, which are indicated by idelogical labels.

In fact, it would be unreasonable to ignore them. Especially pig-fucker.

Response to PosterChild (Reply #93)

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
122. Labels that are applied by others . ..
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 11:37 PM
Aug 2015

.... are less important than labels applied to one's self. Bernie is a self professed socialist , and presumably he means to say something meaningful about himself to others by so doing. That's why the label is important.

Setting that aside, labels applied to others, even though they may be smears, are important also. They are assertions about the intentions and future direction a candidate might take. That is a legitimate concern, perhaps more of a concern than specific policy positions on current issues. Labels are the linguistic vehicle we use to discuss these concerns.

Response to PosterChild (Reply #93)

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
125. In the case of sanders . ...
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 12:14 AM
Aug 2015

.. no one is demeaning him by placing a label upon him. He calls himself a socialist. It is entirely proper to refer to bernie as a socialist, since that is how he characterizes himself.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
6. Not true . ..
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:05 PM
Aug 2015

... "black" now polls at 92 - don't known what it was back 8 years ago, but I bet it was better than the "socialist " category .

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
5. Depends on the socialist
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:03 PM
Aug 2015

And the GOP portray President Obama and most otehr Dems as socialists anyway

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
9. Don't think so...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:08 PM
Aug 2015

.... the whole idea of idelogical labels is that it DOESN'T depend on their individual .

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
15. Did you read what I said?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:12 PM
Aug 2015

The GOP applies that ideological label on all individuals who happen to be Democrats.

Doesn't scare away people in droves, Only those who would not vote for a Dem anyway.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
30. There us a difference . ..
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:25 PM
Aug 2015

....between a slur and a label. In this case it is the candidate who is calling him self a socialist . It will be taken serriously.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
95. Sure, but bernie...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:50 AM
Aug 2015

....calls himself a socialist. People understand that the gop is sluring dems and discount it. They won't discount it when the candidate brags about it himself.

 

ericson00

(2,707 posts)
10. but it didn't and doesn't stick
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:08 PM
Aug 2015

and doesn't for good reason: not only does Obama not actually practice socialism, but he doesn't use the kind of Occupy rhetoric Bernie uses, he is not for gutting welfare reform, helped out our financial institutions, and doesn't call himself a socialist, nor did he. In 2008 it didn't stick not only because of most of the reasons I mentioned, but Wall Street didn't mind him.

 

ericson00

(2,707 posts)
14. was my statement inaccurate?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:11 PM
Aug 2015

I don't think so. Doesn't mean he was a conservative. A conservative thinks fetuses are alive and taxes on the rich should be lower to trickle down. Obama didn't.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
16. RE and doesn't call himself a socialist
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:13 PM
Aug 2015

No worries well have a candidate who does. The oposition won't even have to try,

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
28. What do you mean when you use the word "socialist"?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:22 PM
Aug 2015

What does that word mean to you?

And have you heard any of Bernie's speeches?

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
43. What does the words mean...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:47 PM
Aug 2015

...to them voting public ? My guessing is, "Venezuela". Or "North Korea".

In any case, you can run for presentation , or you can run to teach them true meaning if socialism . But you can't do both.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
51. Bernie thinks it means Sweden or Norway. I think it means Germany or Austria or France.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:29 AM
Aug 2015

Bernie makes very clear the ISSUES he is running on. Free college education (post-secondary state schools), single payer health care as in Western European countries (that I lived in), government investment in safer and better infrastructure, breaking up the too big to fail banks, a strong defense, but an audit of the military expenditures, etc. You can listen to his speeches and visit FeeltheBern.com to read about all his proposals.

I hope you do.

He is not pointing to Venezuela or North Korea.

When Americans hear what Bernie has to say, they agree with him.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
88. Great! We will have a gop candidate ...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:31 AM
Aug 2015

... who says Make America Great, and a Dem who says Make America France. Game over.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
97. Bernie is simply the smartest guy in the room.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:09 AM
Aug 2015

No matter the label he carries or that the media attaches to him.

See this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251555615

That links you to an article discussing Bernie's uncanny ability to foresee disasters before they occur.

The must-read article on his track record of prescience:

http://stupidpartymathvmyth.com/1/post/2015/06/bernard-bernie-sanders-the-political-foresight-champion.html

Bernie warning about entering into the Iraq War.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Proven right.

Bernie warning about the gambling on Wall Street and the crisis it would and did lead to:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4537613/bernie-sanders-predicts-wall-st-collapse

Note that this c-span video is dated 1998!

A couple of times in a century, we get the opportunity to elect a true leader, one who has the judgment and wisdom to excite us with new vision and guide us with wise caution. Bernie is that opportunity.

When Abraham Lincoln was elected president, the country was divided. As I understand it, although he did not favor slavery, he never intended to force slave states to abolish it. The argument was about the ability of slaveholders to pursue and capture slaves in the North. That is my understanding.

But the remarkable thing about Lincoln was that he had the moral courage and the intuition and the foresight to see that protecting the Union was our foremost priority and that slavery as an institution was too great a danger to our Union and to the rights of man and of the slaves to tolerate.

He was a leader, a wise man, a courageous man.

But to much of the country, his ideas were horrifying. To be an abolitionist was in the South akin to being a Communist in the US.

Bernie is not a Communist. He is a Democratic Socialist. There is a huge difference. Western Europe even when conservatives are in charge as in Germany, still provide free college tuition and single-payer healthcare to their people. They do not entangle their military in crazy adventures without thinking about how they will govern the countries after they have ventured into them.

Sanders is that kind of cautious Democratic Socialist. A lot of Americans will like his ideas.

He is 73 years old, an age at which even Jeb Bush thinks he is entitled to retire and enjoy his life. But he is willing to go on and serve his country and the American people. He has great wisdom, years of experience and a powerful bunch of courage and energy, and I sure do hope for the sake of our country, that we elect him in 2016.

He is the first and only presidential candidate who has inspired me to this degree in my life, and I myself am 72. I have never seen a candidate of the quality of Bernie Sanders.

We will be so lucky if we can elect him.

He is fiscally somewhat conservative in my view. He has served on the Budget Committee. He may be the ranking member. He said in his speech to the DLC that one of his first goals will be to order an audit of the military.

If you have ever talked with someone who handled military contracts or did military work, you will understand why that is a good idea. The process encourages spendthrift use of tax money. It is very likely that we can have the same or a better defense than we now have for less money. Bernie is not a spendthrift foolish person.

I think that electing him is the chance of the century for America.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
112. Bernie may be the smartest man* in the room...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:41 PM
Aug 2015

....but he sure made a bone-headed move by adopting and keeping the socialist label.

* With reference to "man", you left your self open to quite a few "witty retorts". Just saying

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
117. I don't mind witty retorts. Most DUers know I am a woman.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:52 PM
Aug 2015

One of my pet peeves with the English language is our failure to use terms, maybe even to have modern terms that are gender neutral.

Man, which is related to the word "mankind" and is similar to the word "Mann" in German which IS gender neutral. I could have used the word "person," but it seemed too unspecific, too general and impersonal to express my point.

I enjoy discussion and civil argument, so it is rather difficult to get me riled. So if someone wants to make a witty retort, I will probably laugh along.

Hey. No problem.

OnionPatch

(6,169 posts)
99. I know a whole lot of young people
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:34 PM
Aug 2015

who would love America to be more like France or other countries in Europe. It may not be enough for this election but the old zenophobes are dying off.

onecaliberal

(33,097 posts)
13. I guess you should stop using the socialist roads
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:11 PM
Aug 2015

Power grid. Basically all public infrastructure. I'm never going to agree with you. Ta ta...

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
20. Yes, the roads...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:16 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:01 AM - Edit history (3)

....we can't forget the roads!

Heck, the Roman Empire was socialist !! What with the roads and aqueducts they basically invented socialism !!

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
131. And schools, and various agencies that keep our water and food and medications safe.
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 02:52 AM
Aug 2015

And then there are agricultural subsidies and flood insurance and public transportation. Hey, the railroads that were built across the country on land granted by the federal government. Then there are the dams and the parks, and the list goes on and on.

When we citizens work together to improve our country and help provide for each other's needs, it's a good thing.

The things we do as individuals are also good, like starting families, working, starting and running businesses, organizing clubs, churches, charities. They are all good.

It isn't either or. It is a matter of the best way to organize a particular part of our lives at a particular time.

You need not fear. The Constitution protects our rights to private property and requires that the government pay just compensation if it takes property that belongs to us.

We have more to fear form the civil forfeiture laws and incursions on our civil rights, many of which are condoned by the courts or even passed into law by our legislatures than we do from the proposals that Bernie Sanders is recommending.

Socialism covers a lot of territory, and it is probably impossible to have government without having some very popular, beloved programs that could be defined as socialist.

It's really not an important issue.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
138. Wbetber that happens or no depends on whether droves of Democrats stay home as they did
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 11:08 AM
Aug 2015

in 2014 in races with Blue Dog and other conservative Democrats or whether we not only get Democrats to the polls but add new votes to the numbers that support Democrats.

When I go to Bernie meetings, I see new faces, people who have never been active in politics, maybe not even voted, as well as a few who have worked on a campaign before.

Bernie is attracting new voters. I'm not even sure that the polls at this time are reflecting these potential voters who have previously shunned the Democratic Party.

If I recall, the candidates in 2014 who won, who excited voters enough to get out and vote were considered more to the left in great part. Al Franken kept his Senate seat. Others who strongly stand for traditional FDR policies, did better than those of the right, those who were too ready to compromise Democratic ideas with the Republican ones.

That can be interpreted two ways -- either that the electorate really leaned to the right or that the candidates on the "left" inspired voters to get to the polls because they felt that their vote could make a difference in Congress and their own lives.

I think the explanation is the latter. And when I meet with other Bernie supporters, I get the sense that they have decided that Bernie's ideas will improve their lives.

It's about time we catch up with other parts of the world on issues like family leave and universal health insurance and debtless post-secondary education, etc.

We are so far behind other countries.

Call is socialism. Call it common sense. What is in a name?

This is the age of computers. Computers do jobs we used to do. They do them for us, all of us. Why shouldn't we all benefit from the time saved, the money earned, when computers work instead of us?

Or should those who "own" the computers earn all the wages from these senseless automatons? It's a real question?

Because conservatives cannot on the one hand require women to birth as many babies as possible and on the other, replace the work the babies might one day do with machinery that costs very little to maintain and thereby force the moms and babies to live on less than it takes to just have a roof over their heads, food on their plates and the basic necessities of life. That is not going to work very long.

An ever growing human population, less work, and all the profits going to a relatively small group of people? Meanwhile those who earn the least are taxed at one of the highest rates when you consider total income?

That equation just does not work. And that is what conservatives, and to a lesser degree even Hillary are offering us.

Do you think the word "socialism" is really appropriate when you are talking about the world we have today in which corporations operate on the international level while working people are constrained to try to make a living in the confines of a nation?

I think the application of socialism as a theory traditionally was thought of as "nationalizing" production. That was the old idea. That is virtually impossible today because production is multi-national. The wheel is made in Mexico, the chassis in South Korea, the gears someplace else. How would anyone nationalize that production even if they wanted to.

Socialism today in my definition (since the traditional one would never work in today's economy) means sharing wealth so through taxation and the funding of government programs benefits everyone, keeps people alive, prepares them to contribute to society. That's what it means to me. And that is how it works in European and some other countries.

I might improve my definition in the future because I am thinking of it as I write it, but I do not think that anyone who uses the word socialism is thinking of the socialism of Marx or Lenin. The modern economy is not compatible with any such idea, and people have evolved beyond the limitations of communication and understanding of the world of the times those thinkers lived in.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
80. The roads that were mostly built by private companies, right?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 07:50 AM
Aug 2015

The ones paid for by taxing the fuel sold at privately owned gas stations, used mostly for the vehicles of privately owned companies of all types (as well as by the individuals receiving profits, paychecks, or pensions from these companies)?

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
21. Oh good Christ...That's a right wing talking point if ever I heard one
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:17 PM
Aug 2015

Ooooooo, don't trust those Scary Socialists.....oooooooo, they're going to steal out babies oooooo

That's Red Scare crap from the 50's. Most people, except hard core conservatives, are more receptive to a mild socialist -- actually an FDR Liberal -- like Sanders once they hear him speak. The rest are unwinnable anyway.

The public would never support Gay Marriage either.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
37. Stale, reheated John Bircher paranoia, right here on DU.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:38 PM
Aug 2015

I'm actually very encouraged to see it here. It means his campaign is having an impact

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
48. No, simply a concern for the electability . ..
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:04 AM
Aug 2015

.... of tge democratic candidate. What us paranoid about that? Let alone "bircher".

Response to PosterChild (Reply #11)

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
33. Thus us an over the top slur...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:28 PM
Aug 2015

Being a Hillary supporter and pointing out electability issues does not make one a fascist . This is an over the top slur.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
38. Nothing over the top
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:39 PM
Aug 2015

If you support the current status quo, you support fascism.

Sanders is against the status quo and therefore against fascism. He has my vote.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
53. Results.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:33 AM
Aug 2015

On Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:28 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Posterchild for fascism. n/t
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=554863

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Being a Hillary supporter and pointing out electability issues does not make one a fascist . This is an over the top slur.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:42 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Please make your point another way than calling another poster a poster child for fascism.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Slur.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Cha

(298,519 posts)
78. Ha! Good.. throwing around that word "fascism" as if he knew what it meant. Just bc BS is
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:37 AM
Aug 2015

a "Socialist".. does not mean everyone else is a fascist.

George II

(67,782 posts)
89. It's only August 2015 - what will the rhetoric be early next year? They'll be throwing around...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:33 AM
Aug 2015

...."fascism", "communism", and every other "ism" they can come up with in a few months.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
26. If you ask peple in the abstract whether they willl vote for a socialist, they will say no.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:20 PM
Aug 2015

If they listen to Bernie and you ask them whether they want what he wants, they will say yes.

Socialism is a word. It's like Christianity. It means different things to different people.

Bernie's platform which he states in every speech is what Americans want.

That's what matters, not what label he uses for himself.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
34. Actually , the label matters . .
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:32 PM
Aug 2015

.... more than you think. In fact it will ensure that most people will not even bother to understand his platform. The label tells them enough.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
54. We shall see. I'm volunteering for Bernie.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:34 AM
Aug 2015

A lot of professional people are. The middle class is in decline, and Bernie is the only one who is really responding to that concern or is believable when he talks about that problem.

CItizens United and the overbearing role of big money and corporations in the political process is a greater concern to Americans today, especially young Americans, than socialism.

China is a Communist country with a Communist government, but we trade with it all the time, and in spite of the Communist label, our billionaires invest a lot of their money and make a lot of their products there.

I don't think the socialist label is nearly the problem for Bernie that you would think that the Communist label and reality is for China.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
36. Then you need not waste one more precious moment of your life mentioning him.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:33 PM
Aug 2015

You don't get that time back, after all, and the outcome is the same even if you do nothing.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
39. I believe..
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:39 PM
Aug 2015

.... in helping others to increase their understanding and in educating them. And in learning , understanding and being educated myself . So I don't consider this to be a waste of time.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
83. The ignorant massess are actually right....
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:21 AM
Aug 2015

For instance, vegetables are all essentially vegetables, but broccoli is just not the same as avocados.

Humans are social animals and to survive and thrive we do have to cooperate and work together. As you sugest, all socio-economic systems are social in nature.

That, however, does not make them all socialist. Socialism is a distinct socioeconomic system that has characteristics and consequences different from other competing ideologies. It is entirely proper to distinguish it from the alternatives and towards judge it on it's merits in contrast to the alternatives.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
90. Socialism is all around us and we'd be screwed without it.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:34 AM
Aug 2015

The ignorant masses couldn't tell you what socialism is, so they sure as hell aren't in position to speak one way or the other about it.

As the Wikipedia pages reads, "Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy." Or, as the International Encyclopedia of Political Science puts it, "Socialist systems are those regimes based on the economic and political theory of socialism, which advocates public ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources."

The US isn't purely one -ism or another, but it's foolish to deny the great extent to which it is a socialist system.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
130. Why yes
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 01:48 AM
Aug 2015

I support public schools, public roads, public sidewalks, and public parks.

There goes that argument.

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
50. Funny when the Bernie haters can't even get information correct...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:26 AM
Aug 2015

DEMOCRATIC Socialist.

Not Socialist.

At least provide honest information.

revmclaren

(2,593 posts)
57. Um....no...he has called himself a socialist....
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:52 AM
Aug 2015

5. In a speech he gave at the National Committee for Independent Political Action in New York City on June 22, 1989, reprinted in the December 1989 issue of the socialist publication Monthly Review: “In Vermont, everybody knows that I am a socialist and that many people in our movement, not all, are socialists. And as often as not — and this is an interesting point that is the honest-to-God truth — what people will say is, ‘I don’t really know what socialism is, but if you’re not a Democrat or a Republican, you’re OK with me.’ That’s true. And I think there has been too much of a reluctance on the part of progressives and radicals to use the word ‘socialism.’”

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265#ixzz3kAy40T4x

Damn easy-to-use Google!!!!



Cha

(298,519 posts)
79. "Bernie haters..".. right.. 'cause there are no "Hillary haters".. BS supporters are pure and would
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:41 AM
Aug 2015

not entertain such thoughts.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
110. The average voter . ..
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:26 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

.... doesn't know or care what the difference between a "socialist" and a "democratic socialist" is. They aren't going to bother to find out and any attempt to explain it will just reinforce the message that he is a socialist.

And after reading the wiki article on "socialism" I've come to the conclusion that socialists don't know what the difference is either.

revmclaren

(2,593 posts)
62. Sorry, wrong again... Here since 2012
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:05 AM
Aug 2015

Part time poster...full time lurker.

But I'll forgive you for your mistake...this time!




But please... Discredit sanders own words....



revmclaren

(2,593 posts)
68. I know...think of all the missed recs!!!
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:14 AM
Aug 2015

Was too busy in the real world ... The Obama campaign and all..

Night night...



PatrickforO

(14,619 posts)
55. Whatever we say in arguing about what Bernie should or should not be called,
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:39 AM
Aug 2015

his speech to the DNC today was RIGHT ON, and the points he makes are things most Americans agree with. Bernie is elevating the dialog, and I believe he can win, which is why I'm supporting him.

revmclaren

(2,593 posts)
61. The MSM and the repubs will eat him alive
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:02 AM
Aug 2015

Just for the one statement He made...HE MADE...and i found in 30 seconds of google search.

Imagine what they will find. If they have a real reason to fear him politically.

Just my opinion and his own statement forever on the Internet.

revmclaren

(2,593 posts)
64. Well off to bed...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:10 AM
Aug 2015

We 'newbies' have to get a lot of rest or our fragile little fingers may get tired...

Oh, and Hillary 2016 and all that...


lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
66. I think so, yes.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:12 AM
Aug 2015

If Sanders wins the democratic nomination I believe he will win the Presidency. When democrats enthusiastically vote in general elections we win.

Bernie's not a 'socialist' like some outdated stereotype of Boris Badinov & Natasha. He's a democratic socialist who caucuses with the democratic party. He's proposing a massive jobs program (paid for by a tax on Wall Street speculation), strengthening & expanding social security, publicly funded elections and health care for all.

He's calling for a grass roots movement to create a more participatory democracy. That's as American as apple pie.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
139. "Bernie's not a 'socialist'"....
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 12:48 PM
Aug 2015

..... then he shouldn't claim to be one. But I guess it's too late now . Oh well.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
72. I'm a Hillary supporter, but I don't think slamming socialism is really a winning tactic.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:18 AM
Aug 2015

Lots of people like socialist programs and progressive policies. Maybe there will be a socialist President some day. Probably not this year though. We will be lucky if we can preserve the reforms of the Obama administration in the face of the right-wing assault.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
73. "Preserve the reforms of the Obama administration"...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:40 AM
Aug 2015

and stumping for Hillary Clinton...yeah that's a real winning leftist platform and class analysis going on in that post Starry Messenger. I'm sure Bill Foster would be proud. It's amazing how "communists" don't consider the Neoliberal policies of Clinton and Obama as part of the right-wing assault on the working class. Opportunism and identity politics abound for the new breed of liberal "communists." Lmao

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
82. I'm sure all four of you left at the Bell are going to
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:22 AM
Aug 2015

start the revolution any day now. If you get any more leftist, you might be able to winnow it down to two. Kisses!

 

AOR

(692 posts)
98. So you're bashing the Bell now also... ?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:59 PM
Aug 2015

very interesting considering how much time you spent there espousing leftist credentials. I'm not a member of the Bell. I followed the writers there - including you - for many years though. Asked TA and Anax and a few others for permission to use some of their writing because it's that good and presents clarity. Probably the best forum on the net for leftist analysis in my opinion. Mileage may vary I guess. Maybe next you will tell me that the Bell is a right-wing front group posing as leftists. Heard that before many times from the people in your little DU circle of "Neoliberal radicals" that you are fully on board with.

As an observer I must admit that something was never quite right about the supposed "leftist activism" in some of your posts, because it wasn't leftist in any way, shape, or form. It was reactionary, "New Left", identity politics horseshit to the core and now you reveal in full glory where you actually stand. You've lost your way and it's very sad. Own it.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
100. Haha.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:24 PM
Aug 2015

Did more for socialism in the past week than you guys will do in the next decade. Please, take your confused myopia to someone else. I have no time for bitter sectarians.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
104. Is "be the change you wish to see"...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:27 PM
Aug 2015

the new rallying cry of the CPUSA Starry Messenger...? "New-Age communism" and identity politics as a political movement built around support of the savage Neoliberal policies of Barack Obama and the Clintons will build solidarity and free the struggling workers from savage economic exploitation and oppression...who knew ? Will there be a pamphlet available for the "bitter sectarians" so we can learn how it's done ?

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
106. You guys wrote your own pamphlet years ago.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:42 PM
Aug 2015


Arrogant white boy "leftists" are as common as grains of sand. Saddest thing is that you think your opinion is in any way original, or that sniping is "leftist analysis." I will leave the rest for the short-sighted barrel of straw that it is. You can have the last word if it makes you feel better.
 

AOR

(692 posts)
108. Wow...I think I will take the last word...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 07:40 PM
Aug 2015

Arrogant "white boy leftists"...that is unbelievable that you would bring race into this. Truly pathetic on your part as there are no more fierce defenders of racial equality than many of the writers at the Bell. That is beyond all words that you would sink to that. Who the hell goes investigating on who is white and who is black or whatever at the Bell while taking in the analysis. Do you know who is white or who is a person of color there unless it's mentioned ? How does it fucking matter ? Unbelievable that you would go there. Talk about short-sighted bullshit. Your whole political world revolves around personal identities. How fucking sad is that Starry Messenger.

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
76. Were there similar articles 8 years ago?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:26 AM
Aug 2015

Were there similar articles 8 years ago:
Would America elect an African-American to be President ?

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
136. Eight years ago? Heck...
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 10:04 AM
Aug 2015

....There have been socialist candidates running for president continously since before the turn of the 20th century. Well over a hundred years. And believe me, they've seen better days.

This isn't a new thing.

Response to PosterChild (Original post)

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
94. FDR x3
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:46 AM
Aug 2015

The GOP will call anyone who wins the nominee a "Socialist". We may as well have a nominee who knows how to own it.




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/22/barack-obama/obama-roosevelt-socialist-communist/

^snip^

"FDR was called a socialist and a communist."
— Barack Obama on Monday, September 21st, 2009 in interview on "Late Night with David Letterman"


The president was accused of being "a socialist, not a Democrat." His plan was described as "undisguised state socialism." One critic, who controlled some powerful media outlets, suggested that communists had infiltrated the president's administration.

Those are some of the attacks that Franklin Delano Roosevelt faced in the 1930s — attacks cited recently by President Barack Obama to emphasize that he's not unique.










LWolf

(46,179 posts)
96. Yes.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:52 AM
Aug 2015

Thanks for bringing this right-wing talking point to DU. It's not like anyone else has thought to do so.

Bernie attracts a broad spectrum of voters. It's one of his strengths as a candidate. He's polling well against the republican candidates. But thanks for your concern.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
113. I would rather be thanked . ...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:55 PM
Aug 2015

... for my concern than for bringing up "right wing talking points ". My concern is the electability of the Democratic candidate . That's a legitimate concern , not a "right wing talking point".

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
105. People are learning the difference between "socialist" & "democratic socialist."
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:33 PM
Aug 2015

Bet you'd like to keep 'em in the dark on that.

Sure you would.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
115. You can run a serious campaign for president,....
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:07 PM
Aug 2015

.... or you can teach them the differences between "socialism " and "democratic socialism ". But you can't do both .

In all honesty you can't do the latter at all because no one is really interested .

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
111. FDR got elected 4 times
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:30 PM
Aug 2015

So, yeah.

Kinda not too smart of a question, eh, PosterChild?

You probably should hurry up and delete it before you become too famous?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
116. Well, sure. He proved it too.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 10:08 PM
Aug 2015

What seems to go right over your head is the fact that the best things our government does are socialist things. To be in denial of that is really kinda weird. Thinkaboutit.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
120. I don't buy it.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 11:17 PM
Aug 2015

I feel compelled to point out that as late as early 2007, more than 80% of poll respondents said they'd never see a black president in their lifetimes and a majority (I think it was 53%) said they would not vote for a black candidate. We see similar data as recently as 2010 for women.

Trendsetters always poll worse than they perform in the ballot box down the road.

Really though, that's an interesting one...if the GOP clown car is really out-of-gas and a majority of Americans won't vote for a woman or a socialist...then who exactly is going to get elected out of a race comprised only of candidates that people won't vote for?

A lot of people that say they wouldn't vote for a woman or a socialist are going to vote for a woman or a socialist if they're the Democratic nominee...just like they voted for a black man with a foreign-sounding name.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
123. Trendsetter? Or ...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 11:50 PM
Aug 2015

.... washed up ideological dead end? Face it, socialist parties and candidates have been a round for a long, long, long time. Like, since the 19th century. This isn't anything new. If people had any inclination towards a socialist president we would have had one well before now.

By my count, FDR ran against four different socialist candidates . We know who won.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
126. We don't have any socialists running at the moment
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 12:33 AM
Aug 2015

But funny enough, people are asking questions...are their other religions than Capitalism? Are they more merciful?

The red scarers should be VERY nervous about that development...

David__77

(23,728 posts)
127. I find the favorability of ratings of "socialism" to be strikingly high.
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 01:19 AM
Aug 2015

A slight majority of Democrats respondents rated "socialism" favorably.

I would be among those, while at the same time, I have no useful definition of socialism. I understand it and "humanism"to be interchangeable. I do not think that the word "socialist" or "socialism" has too much usefulness. Some people said a lot about Obama being a socialist, FDR being a socialist, etc.

I don't see an issue here - not one for me. The idea of electing all sorts of "types" appears to be problematic in some respect. I'll vote for who I support.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
133. Yes, it's right up there...
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 09:42 AM
Aug 2015

.... with "athiest" - just 4 points behind! Practically within the margin of error! With great ratings like that, maybe we should run a socialistic atheist! We'd sweep the election!

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
132. Last time I looked, I am part of America, and I will vote for a Democratic Socialist.
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 06:43 AM
Aug 2015

Why do you ask?

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
134. And as a liberal individualist...
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 09:48 AM
Aug 2015

... I think you should do as you please! Go for it! Have fun! Take a stand! Make a difference !

Just don't expect to win the election.

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