2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI Took A Lot Of Heat Here When I Suggested HRC Should Enjoy Her Grandkid, Wealth, Etc...
A few months ago I asked why HRC would want to put up with the BullShit.
She's rich, Bill's rich, their daughter will be rich, and she has a new grand-child.
And of course I was called sexist, misogynistic, ageist... every ist known to humans.
What occurred to me though, was this was more about my not understanding ambition.
If it were me... I'd be on a tropical beach floating in Mai-Tai's...
Maybe phoning in my pet projects I'd like to support.
But she wants this... and I don't know why.
Yes, yes... every Senator looks in the mirror in the morning and sees a President. Yawn...
Yet... She had to know the BS that was coming her way... she had to know that people were aligning against her just for this point in history.
And with her IT guy signaling he's gonna plead the 5th...
R U F***ing KIDDING ME ???
I just don't get it... I really don't.
PatrickforO
(14,572 posts)semblance of a normal life, bear nearly superhuman levels of stress, so great that your hair turns white even if you're young.
Swim around in a media fishbowl and live under a media microscope.
I'm with you. If I had just a tiny fraction of Clinton's money, say $5 million, I'd be set for life. Maybe I'd write, volunteer, be active in my community.
But president???
Never.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,611 posts)It can make ordinarily sensible human beings do things that they might otherwise not do.
And Presidential Fever is ambition on steroids.
They say the only cure is..........well, you have to die to get over it.
HappyPlace
(568 posts)Kind of narrow, but I meant that too often they have a bully problem, what the power and should be prevented from serving.
I feel a little bit like that with both Clintons and many others who run for higher office: I'm suspect of their motives, I think they love the spotlight, and I think any of the good things they do are secondary to ulterior motives: the thirst for even more wealth and power.
I have no use for this type of politician, I don't trust them, I think that much ambition, express as it is and given the shenanigans that they get caught up in, are all disqualifiers.
The presidency is too important to be left to such people.
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)I wish sometimes that we could choose the Pres. and Congress through a lottery. They could each serve short terms, like around 4 years, and then we'd have another lottery. I got the idea from an old sci-fi book. I think it was written by Frederick Pohl.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)With apologies to Lord Acton.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)No one said that to Colin Powell, or BILL Clinton.
So yeah, that kind of thing DOES sound sexist as hell. Particularly since Clinton has ONE grandkid, what, you want her to babysit the thing all day...or what?
So maybe you should just stop prosecuting that Fail meme--it doesn't do you any favors.
She's got time to enjoy her grandkid AND serve the nation.
And what her "IT guy" does is his problem--she's said, repeatedly, she wants everyone to get it all out there, and she said earlier today she'd rather he didn't invoke that protection, but it's not up to her.
I would suggest that sounds like maybe HE didn't do his job right--not her.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Though the BS during her time as First Lady, then Senator of New York, and then Secretary of State...
How much more do people want... how much more does she want ???
Talk about enough is enough...
You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the crap coming her way.
MADem
(135,425 posts)did as First Lady on women and kids, on health care, on human rights around the world, all that "didn't count."
I just can't keep up here on DU! Now she gets credit for those eight years? Why, that plumps out her resume considerably--I'd say she's spectacularly qualified to serve us as POTUS.
Here's the thing--you are not her. It's not about money, it's about SERVICE.
She has the skills, she has the enthusiasm, she has the qualities to do a superb job. And we need a superb, energetic, KNOWLEDGEABLE leader who has danced on the world stage and knows her way around the players--not a finger pointer who tells everybody what they already know, but doesn't have a path to solutions.
I'll agree with you on one point--I wouldn't want the damn job either. There are too many assholes in the world, who are way too eager to tear her down because they don't like her husband and because they are scared shitless that a woman will do it better--and women often DO do it better--they're better negotiators, they multi-task with aplomb, they aren't overtaken by waves of "Fuck You" testosterone that ebb and surge in some older men, especially, making them poor choices to seek diplomatic solutions (some say that "man"opause is worse than the women's "men-on-pause" but it's pretty much impossible for one person to compare the two, so we'll just have to wait for more evidence on that score--in any event, she's old enough to know better, and young enough to still remember the why of it all--she's in a real sweet spot in terms of her age and stage of life).
I think she's capable of real greatness. I think she should be given the opportunity to serve, and I'll work to get her elected in whatever way I can be useful.
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)Some believe a woman is not allowed to be ambitious. Wow.
You like music MADem.
Here.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I don't think either Hillary or Chelsea would be too happy if they knew you called Charlotte a "thing." (But don't worry, I won't tell.)
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think she'd rather be working on international issues than playing goo goo gaa gaa all day.
A lilttle of that stuff is fine, it keeps one human, but all doggone day? Naaah. It absolutely takes a village, so the thing to do is hand the kid off to one of the villagers and work on that jobs bill!
senz
(11,945 posts)SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)No one is saying this about Sanders even though he is wealthy enough to retire today and has taken many hits since entering the race. Things he wouldn't have to endure if he hadn't entered the race. But he is in it for the good of the country, not ambition. Yet we have enormous amounts of material showing him making deals with the party for decades, clearly outlining his ambition. But no. He is a man. That aspect is simply understood. But the little lady needs to go spend some time with her grandkids.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Surely those kids could use some good babysitting from "Gramps!" He can take them fishing and show them the joys of stamp collecting, too! Maybe spin a few yarns about how things were when he was boy....
Some folks just aren't even subtle, are they?
tularetom
(23,664 posts)And all the stuff that's going down now is chump change compared to what she'll be faced with if she is actually elected.
She appears to be going through the motions, like she's only running because some people expect her to. She isn't an extrovert like Bill Clinton or Obama, she's kind of a bookwormy loner, not comfortable in a crowd, not outgoing, not a bullshitter like Bill, not a quick thinker like Obama.
IMO, she's beginning to doubt that she really wants to do this.
And I don't think the country needs a POTUS that has any doubt.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)tularetom
(23,664 posts)Who would have a big enough ego to do that?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)You really nailed it and should be so very very proud.
MADem
(135,425 posts)any damn thing. Hell, he's lucky she knows how to exercise restraint--anyone else would have "pushed" HIM down a long flight of stairs!
These conversations are just so...I dunno....
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)that is just sad looking!
KoKo
(84,711 posts)if she's elected. Its Clinton Power. Two for the Price of One.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)like NAFTA, "welfare reform", "criminal justice reform," the Telecom Act, and "banking reform" may the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the FSM and Princess Celestia please, PLEASE deliver us from such a horrible fate. Haven't they destroyed enough?
senz
(11,945 posts)I heard years ago that after his second term was up, Bill wanted to get back to the White House, so he talked Hillary into it. If I'd been her, I'da thrown another lamp at him.
Yeah, she doesn't seem to have any real heart for the job. It's not a good situation for her or the country.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)A Republican consultant told a network newscaster that his job was to make sure Hillary Clinton is discredited before the 1996 campaign. Each day, anti-Hillary talking points go out to talk-show hosts. The rumor machine is cranking out bogus stories about her face (lifted), her sex life (either nonexistent or all too active) and her marriage (a sham). Many of the stories are attributed to the Secret Service in an attempt to give the tales credibility.
senz
(11,945 posts)I have always disliked the anti-Hillary smear campaigns, and during the Clinton presidency, I was one of her staunchest defenders. I can't stand the way Republicans treat Democratic First Ladies.
But that little chit-chat about Bill's wanting to get back into the WH sounded entirely possible. And no, it is nowhere near the reasons I don't prefer her for president, nor does it explain her tenuous, disconnected behavior of late, which is what we were talking about. I don't think she enjoys running for president. I she loved people, she might enjoy it better.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)You chose to employ it.
You're welcome to jump to conclusions about "all unflattering talk". I did no such thing.
MADem
(135,425 posts)So, whatever.
I don't think she has ANY doubts.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)If I were 74 years old, Bernie will be 75 if he wins the nomination, I too would be sitting home "retired" taking it easy with my grandchildren, my wife, and my friends. So whats your point? Sure she has money, but when someone wants serve their country, and Bernie is the same, why should they stop doing what they want to do?
Nice job putting in the email thingy!
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Glad that's settled...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)eom
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Wait, doesn't work either,. Stallone probably has a copyright on that.
One of my favorites...
Okay, I got nuthin'
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)JI7
(89,248 posts)Why he stayed in the Senate until he died ?
Bernie sanders is older than Hillary and he would be able to retire into a nice lIfe.
Which candidate isn't going to get someone to go after them.
I'm not seeing your point in any of this.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)The last years of my life, would not be as a 82 year old yelling on the phone to his stock broker, "Sell, sell, sell !!!"
I want the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of my labor before I die.
And I too, wanted to elect the first woman President of the United States.
She told me she was not interested...
JI7
(89,248 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)IOW - She has served plenty...
Same with Ted Kennedy... hell his whole family resisted him in doing it...
So what is it... an addiction ???
I really don't know.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)why would she want more?
Even if you knew it was all kabuki theater, it would be difficult to have shit thrown at you every day for 30 plus years (I'm thinking of FL of Arkansas too). At some point you might say, "Enough already!"
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)She's worth many millions and more rolls in seven figures a year. She was far, far richer when she first came to office than either of the Clintons were. Warren has also been a US Senator and if seeking the Presidency she too would be seeking more as an already very accomplished person.
So you were totally eager to see a person who did no public service for 30 years as a Republican taking huge fees from big corporations as a consultant, who amassed a large fortune, switched Parties, became a Senator run for higher office in her sixties. But Hillary fails because of wealth and having been a Senator and you go about mentioning that she should enjoy her grand children? Elizabeth Warren has three grandchildren.
So it is certainly that old Double Standard. That which is virtue in one is sin in the other. It's the mark of the conservative animal.
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)Excellent post, Bluenorthwest.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)with. And has put up with for many years.
Most of us would have given up long ago if we had been put through this.
We are not saying she has to quit. Just asking why she is willing to face it.
I personally think it has to do with wanting to be the first woman president. To go down in history.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)She has no responsibility to be the first woman President.
It will come.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)It's OK if you're a grape smuggler...?
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)there is more to it. Let's forget for a moment all
her admirers, and look at what is happening to
the country, and who wants to keep the status quo.
Those are the powers pushing and supporting her.
When the repugs quietly say they would be satisfied
with either HRC or Jebbie, then you know, who and
what is pulling the strings behind the scenes, imo.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)He wants this too.
HE could retire.
HE could be on a beach enjoying cocktails.
and I am sure He has to know the BS that will be thrown his way as well.
Bernie has seven grandchildren. Why does he want to put up with this BullShit?
MADem
(135,425 posts)They don't get the same degree of scrutiny...the women have to do the same thing, backwards, and in high heels, you see! Twice as good to get half the credit....
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)imagine for one moment if SoS was found to have had a child out of wedlock
just saying that as a purely hypothetical thought
The double standards really irritate me. I have my issues with HRC from a purely political POV, but OP's like this are just wrong.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)because he hasn't been endlessly investigated for the last 22 years. Hillary has been. We'll have Whitewater 2.0 for as long as she's politically active and the country will suffer for it. When does the good of the country become more important than Hillary being the first female president?
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I addressed what the OP wrote about.
You brought a red herring (IOW, nothing the OP mentioned) into the discussion.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Sanders is trying to change things. Hillarys running to be president - big difference.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...which none of our nominees are immune from.
Funny that now folks are reduced to pointing to the politically-motivated attacks (most sponsored and furthered by big money conservatives) as some disqualifier. Doesn't occur to you that none of these scandals have produced anything more than innuendo and smears?
It's all certainly tailor-made for her opponents - not very inspiring to see the right-wing attacks leveraged by Democratic opponents. Pretty soon we'll have our own franchise of smears to call our own.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)She had perfectly good reasons for declining to do so, ones I respect.
I think Bernie looked around after that and said, "someone's gotta do it, and I don't see anyone else stepping up, so I guess I'd better get moving."
Bernie Sanders hasn't spent the last 30, 20, 10, or 3 years laying awake at night and trying to figure out how he was going to become POtUS.
msongs
(67,405 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)She did not...
Hell... I was for Elizabeth Warren before Bernie Sanders.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)and never, in all the friday's with Bernie that I have listened to on Thom Hartman do I ever recall him saying he wished Elizabeth Warren would run.
IF I am wrong, I am willing to be wrong, but I don't think he ever even insinuated such a thing.
He wanted to run, and he wanted to make sure he has the support to run before he made that choice. Make no mistake, he wanted to run.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)I just assumed that if she wouldn't, he would.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)Appreciated.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)I don't think that he really wants to do the hard work.
Yet he is leading his pack.
rpannier
(24,329 posts)Because everyone else is a loser
What other choice did he have?
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I am responding to the OP.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)He wouldn't be running if he didn't want it...
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The legacy of being the first woman president, and a strong one at that.
President Obama is pretty open about wanting some sort of legacy, but he seems picky. Hillary, if she wins, becomes the George Washington of the new era.
Like it or not, that has to be hard to turn away from.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)her policies, we still should vote for her because
of her gender?
I don't mind a strong woman, but certainly one,
who is supporting illegal wars.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)I want the best person for the job, not the appropriate next gender or race "barrier" candidate.
I just think it's sad that the idea of a legacy is even a part of the pomp of the position- it may be the highest office, but they are still a public servant, and should act as such.
demmiblue
(36,845 posts)Well, not kind of, pretty much totally.
And I don't support Clinton.
and
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)You are a man, how could you get it?
Some women just want to make this a better place for children and their future. I just do not understand your concern to make an OP out of this. What concerns me, is your concern about this. Do women need to sit back and be silent?
MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)OP decides to double down. And you worry about the shit coming Clinton's way?
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)And the 5th Amendment is a right we all enjoy, exactly so as to make life a little more challenging or the Trey Gowdys and Ken Starrs of the world.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I'm kidding of course.
Cheers!
tblue37
(65,340 posts)I think she also believes he needs to be president to do some of the things she wants to get done--but she has made so many compromises and deals along the way, that she has probably boxed herself into an ugly corner.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)your lack of understanding of "public service."
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)I think is is about mansplain'in.
A woman should know her place. It's a mans world after all. Yikes! Men telling us what our ambitions should be. Next they will be telling us how to regulate our bodies.
Oh, wait, they already are.
oasis
(49,381 posts)Moses, Joan of Arc,Davy Crockett, Francis of Asissi, Ghandi, RFK, and even Bernie Sanders.
Many more have had visions that go beyond materialism and personal comfort.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
..concerning her bottomless ambition, and I'm not sure DU is the venue for such arm chair psychology, but as a lifelong Democrat I'll wade in:
I think the Monica/Bill stuff was unbearable, because of the relentless public humiliation that went on for years. Even after he was out of office. It was pretty horrifying and went on and on. And on. And was always public. Did I mention humiliating? Anyway, I think it changed her, kind of killed off something. It's partly why she always sounds so fake. She's lost the usual ability to actually feel anything. And she determined to set right their legacy in historyto get them back into the WH-- and to give the finger to all those persecutors. This Shakespearean drama is understandable but not good for the county.
Not going to get into a debate with anyone about this, but it's my theory.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And she deals with it ALL the time- not just in the form of witch hunting, but as someone put it at Obama's inauguration: "Look, Bill's getting really familiar with that female who is not his wife..." other person: "...That's just Bill!"
On a deeper level though, the Clintons have been adopted into "The Family," and not just any part of it- into Bushco. Who knows if they were well meaning before they signed their souls to set their children up in the 1%, but we know where they are now.
The Family. How could I forget?
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Please stop this.
You know what I am talking about.
senz
(11,945 posts)But don't tell me; I prefer to keep my illusions about people.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Doesn't that normally explain political ambition?
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Public service.
Do you read replies to your posts?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)which is easily solved and some people needs to get past. Women are not going to stay home and barefooted, we are very functional in the work force, get past this foolishness.
My next question is why isn't Bernie home playing with his grandchildren? He has had grandchildren longer than Hillary, perhaps he should take you advice and go home and play with them.
SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)The thought you pose is truly offensive and short-sighted.
Can you link to the post where you have questions Jeb's ambition considering the illegal activity being discussed about him? To be clear, where you questioned his ambition alone, not his character. How about the ambition of any man in politics who has the media and whole opposing party working against him. Once again, ambition, not character.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Better to live fifty years on your feet than one hundred years on your knees.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)SonderWoman
(1,169 posts)So it does seem a bit sexist/misogynistic that you would suggest only the woman stay home. Hope that clears it up.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Here I'll help you since you seem to be new at this.
Bernie Sanders Among Least Wealthy Senators
http://digital.vpr.net/post/bernie-sanders-among-least-wealthy-senators
-
Sanders had an estimated net worth of $330,000 in 2013, according to financial disclosures filed with the U.S. Senate and analyzed by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, a watchdog group that tracks money in politics. But that's a relative pittance on Capitol Hill, where the median net worth for a member of Congress topped $1 million in 2013, according to the Center's analysis. In the Senate, Sanders is downright poor: the median there was about $2.8 million.
"Congress is a special, elite set," said the Viveca Novak, the Center's editorial and communications director. "Most members of Congress are millionaires."
And Sanders is pretty poor by senatorial standards, Novak said: Based on his 2013 financial disclosure forms, the independent ranked as the 86th richest member of his chamber.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/07/08/421151627/sanders-among-the-least-wealthy-presidential-candidates
Do you need more? Try to remember that Google can be your friend.
SonderWoman
(1,169 posts)And that doesn't include his platinum healthcare benefits and pension.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)compared to clintons 21 mill it is not rich
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)I'm surprised that so many need lessons on how to Google. I hear the lessons are free at one's local library.
brooklynite
(94,520 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Can't say that about any other candidate.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)...by the way, 'bs' is coming for any Democratic nominee.
The scandal stuff you and most opponents have been throwing at her will shrivel away into a big shrug; more importantly, distracting from the policy questions and concerns she's actually vulnerable on.
This post reflects what most ambitious women get when they dare to push past obstacles and reach for the top rung of the professional or political ladder. Each and every one of the candidates can be asked this question; most notably, of the 70-plus year-old Senator from Vermont. She doesn't have any less of a valid reason for running than this man who's been entrenched in Washington politics for decades.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Has it ever occured to you that a woman is more than just "woman?" That there are differences between and among women? That what we reject in Hillary has nothing to do with her gender?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Why would a woman, a woman who has been first lady, a woman who has been a senator, a woman who has been Secretary of State ... why oh why would she ever in a million years want to put herself through all the hassle of becoming President.
It just makes NO sense!!!
senz
(11,945 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It would not be right to suggest that Warren, having earned many millions as as corporate consultant, an author, a professor and a United States Senator might want to retire and enjoy her wealth and grandchildren.
I offer that speaking of the differences between them is not the same as ragging on one of them for traits they both share. I offer that 'old rich grandma' is not really proper criticism, particularly when it is leveled only at one elder wealthy grandma and not to the others.
Having a political rival does not absolve a person of basic decency and a need for equity.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)She's addicted to it by now, Willy.
Like Richard Nixon was, she is obsessed with holding the office for the sake of holding the office and nothing more. There's no big plan or goal, she won't answer any direct questions, it's just an all-consuming obsession with the office at this point and a titanic sense of entitlement to it. Just like Nixon in that respect.
Whatever underlying goal she may have once had, if she ever had one at all, has long been forgotten. Why else would she spend so much time buddying around with some of the vilest people on earth (Kissinger, Blankfein, Murdoch to name just three)? There's nothing left of her but blind, naked ambition for its own sake.
No Clinton has ever had any core principle than self-advancement by any means necessary.
And that is why we need Bernie so badly.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)When you're rich as all get out, what else is there left?
To go down in the history books. To be remembered for centuries, even millennia.
She wants to be 'the first female President' to assure her place in history.