This Is Very Disturbing

[The Doctor.]

I've been saying for a while that the PTB will 'allow' Obama' to have another term before the 'big' crash. When Mittens came up as their guy, I thought that "maybe they are trying to bang Obama out early because they are scared".

Holy SHIITE! I could not have been more wrong. Romney is a terrible candidate with an incompetent staff. I'm not sure if I'm happy about that yet.

Yes, undoubtedly, I want another 4 years of Obama rather than 2 months of RMoney. But it is frightening to see what is likely the most insidious and brilliant undermining of a Republican candidate by the PTB in order to keep a Democrat in the White House long enough to bolster the economy and give us a sense of certitude before the inevitable collapse.

Does Obama know what's happening?

Can he stop or even slow it?

Do any of you think I'm crazy?

I sure hope that's the case. But I've seen too much empirical evidence that demonstrates otherwise.

[get the red out]

1. I've worried about this myself

That they are throwing out a total loser now in Romney so that they can have four years to try to destroy the Democratic Party and rehabilitate the Bush name with Jeb as their next candidate.

[Sherman A1]

76. That was always the plan

Romney is a placeholder.

[hlthe2b]

2. What a positive & happy message first thing

in the AM

So all is lost? Belong to the 1% or prepare
For life on the streets?

[The Doctor.]

13. That's ridiculous.

No.


The point is that Rmoney was indeed forced down Republican throats. They've been programmed, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, to be extremists on social issues and morons on economic ones. Romney passes their non-existent economic filters, but fails their riotous social filter.... and that's the one that matters.

How could this immense disconnect happen other than by design?

Your derision is useless here. This isn't "The End of The World!", we'll leave that to climate change. No, this is the wrong assholes with too much power looking to break the back of America to create a plutopia.

[hlthe2b]

16. I'm not disagreeing with your Romney points. Re-read what you wrote about our situation, however.

Geebus, if that wasn't painting us facing "the end of the world", I hate to see you on a truly "negative" day.

I'm glad to hear you being a bit more upbeat, however.

[The Doctor.]

17. Fascism is coming to America.

It's coming on or shortly after 2017. I'm not talking about the dressed-up and disguised fascism we see today. No, this will be full-on, jack-booted home invasion, millions in prison camps, wingnut-world fascism.

Why?

Because for the sake of the ultra-wealthy it has to, and they're the ones with the power to make it happen.


And yes, I hope I'm wrong... but that is seldom the case.

[TheWraith]

26. Okay, I'll say it: yes, you are crazy. nt

[The Doctor.]

41. Yep, just like all those nut-jobs

that raised the alarms over climate change.

I've studied enough history, and paid enough attention to developments over the past 20 years to know to a certainty the road we're headed down.

But hey, if you're more comfortable believing everything is going to continue on just as it has ad infinitum, then who am I to tell you different?

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. Climate change is about science; your OP is about fiction

If you claim this comes from some version of history, then make your case with all the historical examples that make your claims "certain", and explain why other similar historical situations don't apply.

[Doctor_J]

28. "the wealthy" are just fine the way things are right now

why would they risk waking the Limbeciles?

[The Doctor.]

40. What you fail to understand is that things are NOT going to stay the way they are.

We are headed for inexorable collapse. The question isn't 'whether', nor is it really 'when', it is 'how bad will it be?'.

It is simply NOT possible to maintain our current consumption and standards of living. WHEN the collapse happens, and it will not be decades from now it will be mere years, the ultra-wealthy aren't interested in going to the gallows. No, what they will do is have their media tell the Limbeciles and Wingnuts it was the Liberals' fault. Then, after the dust clears, the all-to-happy-with-authoritarian-rule 'conservatives' will have a new feudal/fascist utopia to protect the uber-wealthy.

[Iggy]

65. If the predicted large Solar Flare hits us just right

How will the one percent continue their propaganda on tee vee and right wing radio with
no/fewer satellites? no internet? no cell phones? no electricity?

imagine if the system goes down for just two weeks... didn't a flare take out a section of
Canada's power grid not long ago?

but I mostly agree w/ The Doctor; especially on the timing. many progressives _assume_
we have 25-30 years to "fix" our major problems, we don't.

the center cannot hold. it's only going to take 1-2 large environmental/financial disasters
spaced close together time-wise to knock the house of cards down.

we are totally NOT prepared for the consequences of the predicted massive solar flare, or
another (predicted) earthqauke in the midwest per the 1800's... re: the New Madrid Fault. the last
time this mutha kicked off, the Mississippi River ran backward for one day

[The Doctor.]

66. We're long overdue for another Carrington event.

That happens, and WOW! Will civilization be brought to its knees!

Funny how it will be the people in the 3rd world who will wind up with the advantage.

The only real question is: Who will be in charge when it happens, and what will they do about it?

[Iggy]

67. "Who will be in charge?"

excellent question and this is my point-- with municipalities going bankrupt/severe lack
of revenue-- firing thousands of staff, planning/prep for a catastrophic event falls by the
wayside rather quickly.

It depends on where you live. urban areas would be chaotic. we only have what? a one week
supply of food on the grocery store shelves at any given time? what happens if the
deliveries stop??

[RKP5637]

31. I think we're in 'possibly' for very rough times for most Americans. Many will embrace

fascism as the solution to the nations' economic ills. Many Americans IMO are too ignorant to even understand the various 'isms,' let alone recognize the encroachment into their lives. I've often thought America might well end up, eventually, as some type of theocratic fascist dystopia for most of the country.

Money talks and has great power, the rest of us just talk. The balance of have / have nots has, of course, eroded significantly and there are few brakes anymore 'possibly' on a fascist state. Just Citizens United is one huge red flag!

There are some very powerful agendas afloat.

[patrice]

39. That's the way I see it. We're a side-show. This also explains why they hired a centrist, a good one

, in 2008.

[BBGC]

46. Don't think so. Wrong.

If anything, the elite will do what they always do - start a major war to thin the numbers.

Nazi style camps? I give it a .1% probability.

Major war? 80+% probability.

Multiple reasons why a major war trumps death camps for the elite. For one thing, the vast majority of the population will march happily off to war. (just give them an enemy to hate) Why risk a full on revolt of the population when you can have them eliminated on their own accord?

[The Doctor.]

50. A war will only incite the population further.

Bush's war woke many people up to the sham the elites have been pulling on us. But that's besides the point.

The fact is that we're going to crash BAD. And when it happens, people will want to know who to blame. The morons that watch Faux aren't quite stupid enough to believe Canada destroyed our economy and climate, so who will they blame?

DUH! The people they've been blaming all along... the liberals.

Why? It should be obvious. Liberals actually know who is running the nation into the ground and how. They know who the real architects of our demise are. The elites, in order to protect themselves, will tell their millions of moronic minions 'it's all the Liberal's fault!', and those idiots will believe it. What then? Starving, scared, angry, ignorant people who naturally resort to violence will fall upon their fellows with glee. In order to maintain some semblance of order, this won't be done Rwanda-style, at least not for long. There will have to be official dispensation from the government to form a force (or augment DHS) that will carry out the capture of the enemies of the plutocrats. Namely: us.

It can't go down any other way, barring a miracle.

[Voice for Peace]

53. it's already here but I think it will be on its way out, maybe even in our lifetimes.

I'm staying on the sunny side of the street.

[Iggy]

64. I forget, who is the author of:

"Life outside the corporate compound will be nasty, brutish and short".

[CreekDog]

79. What a paranoid rant

In the form of an improbable and impossible to keep secret conspiracy theory.

[KurtNYC]

3. my take is very different

the GOP may see Obama as unbeatable this year. They will let Romney spend his fortune and burn himself out but keep their powder dry for 2016.

Financial collapse always seems inevitable if you look at numbers. It is like a Escher drawing -- it seems impossible yet there it is decade after decade.

[GoCubsGo]

8. Either that, or the fix is in.

I'm pretty shocked at how incompetent Romney and his campaign have been. And, it's hard to believe that nobody knew about his Bain dealings and tax issues. Or, did they actually think the Obama campaign wouldn't look into them? It doesn't make sense, although it doesn't appear they have the same sleazebags running the campaign that Dumbya had. Maybe they really are that incompetent and arrogant.

I think they are planning to steal Congress instead, and it will be a repeat of the second Clinton term, where they do everything to smear the President to the point where people don't want to vote Democrat.

[KurtNYC]

11. It can't be both -- the fix is in AND they are incompetent

People who are competent could play stupid but if they truly are incompetent they couldn't pull off some grand secret conspiracy.

Romney is no dirtier than the Bush clan and they have managed to get 3 terms. The whole thing is a big show that's why Romney and Bush have so much trouble speaking sometimes -- they can't keep track of all the lies and spin they are supposed to lay down. What the Repubs are doing is trying to get Romney to put out the bad stuff because they believe they can spin it all away. Romney is notused to be told what to do or second guessed. He is stubborn and arrogant.

They have a good reason to believe that they can get the American people to swallow huge lies. Consider their track record with these lies: Sadam has WMDs, 911 was not foreseeable, Bush beat Gore, Bush beat Kerry, Bush won Ohio in 2004, Iraq had WMDs afterall, and many more.

[patrice]

34. On the principle that there are different kinds of wealth & different kinds of income, all of whom

, above some level of critical mass, have similar problems since '08 Derivative Crash, couldn't this show be for those in the back rooms behind the back rooms, behind the back rooms, behind secret doors into invisible rooms, who are engaged in the resolution of/struggle for whatever is next because of that Derivative Crash?

As I said below, what's going on there amongst THOSE players at that level depends upon the size of that black hole ( one e.g. there's an article in the Financial Times today about investigation into ONLY 4 banks controlling $500 TRILLION in contracts http://liveweb.archive.org/http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2b585fa-d0ff-11e1-8957-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2114Co1KP ) and this theater is about them for them, because this is stuff that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of our league. We're ir-relevant. Romney and Obama are THEIR avatars (and there are probably others). They're trying to flush certain things out of each other's hands, in order to deal with their own situations, to strengthen their own hands by acquiring or disposing of certain other assets, all determined by $500+ trillion worth of bad "paper."

The first question is can they actually manage the true size of the losses and the second one is, if they CAN, exactly how, i.e. in what precise manner, and the third question is, if they CAN'T, if the whole thing is for real in free-fall, who gets with whom to do what else.

[HopeHoops]

10. Yeah, I agree. Nobody credible dared put their name in the GOP hat this year.

[bemildred]

4. Nah, that's not it. nt

[ClusterFreak]

5. Not sure even Machiavelli himself would have cooked up this scenario.

[The Doctor.]

18. Leo Strauss.

Study up.

[ClusterFreak]

22. And I guess I'd better do it by 2017, huh?

You hope you're wrong, I know.

But you seldom are.

Just ask you.

[The Doctor.]

25. No, curing your ignorance of the mindset that the people with all the power possess

will not stop the inevitable. It might, otoh, prepare you.

It will give you an understanding of how and why this is happening, and what to look for when everything goes to hell.

Here's what you seem oblivious to: They can't stop accumulating power. They are going to break this nation in that pursuit. If you really, really think about the situation we're in and the current circumstances, there is no other possible outcome for this nation barring a miracle.

And the people of this nation are too damn ignorant of history, as well as our current situation, to even understand what we have to avert.

If you were not one of them, you'd understand that time is almost up. You'd know that there IS a breaking point where society collapses. You'd know how close we are to that point. You'd know what the people who've been accumulating power by sucking the middle class dry must do. AND you'd realize how startlingly obvious it is that they are indeed doing it.

Only you can cure your ignorance. I can't get through derision and smileys to someone who is content to remain oblivious.

[ClusterFreak]

30. If I wasn't "one of them".

Well, if I am...then, then I must be realllly rich and realllly powerful.

How did I miss that? Boy is my face red.

Leo said this would happen. Why didn't I listen?

Say goodnight, Gracie.

[The Doctor.]

37. Having trouble with comprehension?

Brush up on your reading comprehension skills please.

It's impossible to communicate with someone who has trouble reading let alone one who wishes to remain ignorant.


Your face would be red if you were paying any attention.

[ClusterFreak]

47. Comprehend this, Doc....

[The Doctor.]

49. You care so little,

that you put the effort into putting 187 smileys in your post.

Talk about oblivious. You should stop making a fool of yourself. But don't let me tell you what to do.

[ClusterFreak]

61. You put the effort...

...into counting 187 smilies in my post.

So who's the fool here again?

[The Doctor.]

62. Lol.... learn to do math.

I counted 28.

Funny, I knew this was one of your possible responses, I'd just hoped you weren't that uneducated.

[ClusterFreak]

72. Well dude this was fun.

But the more I engage in massively bizarre conversations with people who's pretzel logic is so hopelessly twisted, it eventually becomes suffocating. We have indeed reached that stage of critical mass. A little further upthread I would suggest.

Good day to you sir. And perhaps as an MD - with all apologies to fans of 'Seinfeld' - from now on you might consider breaking the Prozacs in half.

[The Doctor.]

73. I suppose if someone is ignorant of how math works,

They would consider it 'pretzel logic' as well.

My prescription: Take two classes in the morning, and some independent study at night. It might not straighten the ignorance out right away, but the cumulative effects should do you some good.

[ClusterFreak]

78. You said I posted 187 smilies.

Then you said it was 28. There is no math involved here. Only two statements asserting two completely different things, both made by you.

I can't believe I've wasted the last couple of days engaging you on this forum. For that, I blame myself and my own stubbornness. Still, I stand by everything I have said.

Goodbye forever, go find some other foil for your nonsensical assertions.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Your entire premise is that Republicans are brilliant stategists able to predict a distant future

in a universe of variables. Personally, I see Republicans at this point as barely able to tie their own shoes. I'm not fond of the 'our opponents have magical powers and super intuition' memes.

[The Doctor.]

14. Not even close.

It's not 'Republicans' who have 'strategized' anything.

It is the very small handful of people that are looking at the perfect storm after 2016 and thinking, "Okay, how do we keep power here?"

If I had billions of dollars, a stake in government, and familial preservation instincts, it's exactly what I'd be doing.

[ClusterFreak]

23. I have to disagree.

I really think you are giving them far too much credit.

Tie their own shoes. Gimme a break.

[patrice]

7. Depends upon how much inertia is in that '08 derivative black hole, doesn't it, but maybe even

that doesn't matter, 'cause it's already past the point of no return, so now since there's not so much that can be done about that, it really is just a matter of whose side anyone wants to be on in this thing: with free people, or serfs to royalty.

[rusty fender]

9. At least 2 people who were right about the last crash

think that another one is inevitable. Thom Hartmann thinks it will happen in about 2 years, while Nouriel Roubini predicts that it will happen in 2013.

[patrice]

35. Thom Hartmann was doing interviews about the size of the thing from day 1. That's a crucial question

He had guests who said something less than $100 Trillion up to $700 Trillion.

If you look around (I haven't for a while) it's pretty hard to find anyone attempting to put a figure on that.

Just for starters: This was posted here at DU today, about an investigation of 4 banks related to the LIBOR financial scandal, which has of course been going on for quite some time, 4 banks controlling $500 Trillion in contracts:

http://liveweb.archive.org/http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2b585fa-d0ff-11e1-8957-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2114Co1KP

[progressivebydesign]

12. You're over-thinking things.

they did NOT put up the worst candidate possible, just as they thought McCain/Palin would win.

They want to win, the chose the least putrid (in their minds) candidate, according to the primaries. People voted for him.. not by much, but they did. THey fully expect to win. There is no secret controversy or coming crash.

Really, really, over-thinking in a big way. My weirdo right wing Glenn Beck fan neighbors think that there is a crash coming, and they are 200 M&Ms short of a full bag.

[The Doctor.]

15. No, they NEEDED a 'scary black man'

In order to crystalize the divide in this nation.

They can't 'divide and conquer' unless they have a few million ignorant morons willing to take up arms against their own countrymen, now can they?

[Fredjust]

19. So...

the question is, what do we do about it? Is there a way to disenfranchise Republican voters? Scare them away from the polls? Try to get a majority in Congress so we can gerrymander districts in such a way that they will never be elected again?

[The Doctor.]

20. Funny you should put it that way.

The answer is 'no'. "We" do not want to 'disenfranchise Republican voters' or gerrymander districts so they 'will never be elected again'.

This might be a little difficult to get for you, as transparent as you are, but 'We' want a Democratic Republic, not a one party system.

When the people aren't exposed to the enormous amount of BullShit that the 'right' spews, they tend to have more common sense.

[Fredjust]

32. Mouse in your pocket?

I admit, it is difficult for me to get? There is nothing the Repugnicans have that is good for the country. When they're not being ignorant sheep, they're mean-spirited, selfish, misogynist, rascist tea-baggers.

I can see a future in a multi-party system, but the Repugnicans are NOT in it. Why would you even want them to have a chance to roll back the dial to the 1800's? They're everything that's wrong with this country! They stole two elections, and do everything in their power to undermine our president. I don't see any tactics to remove them from power, permanently, as not being fair game.

[The Doctor.]

38. Why do I bother?

You're talking past the point.

No, disenfranchising voters is the wrong way to go about it. The End is the Offspring of the means. We'd just wind up with the same crap under a different name.

We need to break the hold of big money over our government.

Good luck with that.

[Fredjust]

43. The ends...

justify the means in my book, especially if the means is removing all right wing voices from politics.

[qwlauren35]

55. If We Repeal Citizens United?

That might be a start.

But I accept your premise. However, if I can't stop it, I'm not going to worry about it. It might be nice of you to tell us if there's anything we can do to be prepared for it, instead of just spreading doom and gloom.

[patrice]

36. They don't care how bad Romney is. Even the ones who hate what he's done will vote for him.nt

[Bake]

21. OMG! We might win!

How horrible! It's the end of the world!

Bake

[Doctor_J]

24. You seem like a "glass half empty" sort of guy

[The Doctor.]

27. When there is a hurricane coming,

you don't pretend it's a zephyr.

[southernyankeebelle]

29. Sorry I am still trying to figure what you mean by "PTB".

[The Doctor.]

42. You must not have been around here for very long.

"Powers That Be".

Lots of people would like to believe that people with huge amounts of wealth and power would never, ever manipulate their resources to influence the course of events in this nation.

Those people are part of the reason that those with huge amounts of wealth and power get away with manipulating their resources to influence the nation.

[southernyankeebelle]

48. I'm old. I have never seen those initials before. I just wanted to know because it was the

second time I'd seen it today. Thank you. Your never to old to learn. I always heard of VIP (Very Important Person).

[phleshdef]

69. Then why don't you just type out "Powers that Be" instead of some pretentious acronymn?

I've been around here for years now and I've never seen that used.

[The Doctor.]

74. How many years?

The farthest back the search would let me go was 2008:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6866300&mesg_id=6866520

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5500285&mesg_id=5501313

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5173222&mesg_id=5173296

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=600377&mesg_id=600418

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9599213&mesg_id=9600714

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9689625&mesg_id=9692494

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4501206&mesg_id=4501805

There are hundreds of examples.


But now you know. Cool, huh?

[phleshdef]

77. 6.5 years as a forum member, but I was lurking for a few years before that.

[JNelson6563]

33. I disagree.

I think the Rethugs are so clueless they think their rank and file still marches in lockstep when it really matters. I'm sure they fully expected everyone would just get in line when expected and that would be that.

The powers you speak of are giving hundreds of millions to elect Romney. Do you really believe that is all just an elaborate front? They are just pretending to be supporting Obama's opponent?

The big money is expecting to own the airwaves (more than they usually do) and scare enough people with fuzzy black & white photos of the black President coupled with a scary voice-over in commercials that air 24/7.

They are banking on there being enough people who hate Obama to elect anyone they put forth. The got W in twice didn't they?

What they don't get is their base is now fractured, many having left the world of lucidity, and they no longer have the unwavering unity they once enjoyed. They had it so long they came to expect to always have it.

Frankly I think it's delightful to see them reap what they've sown. They started this with all their hate-mongering...now their test subjects have gone off the reservation and are beyond their control. They will throw more money at this they've ever had to before and they will lose and it will sting.

Julie

[The Doctor.]

44. I hope you're right.

[Jennicut]

71. And Romney won the nomination because every other Repub was even worse.

Romney actually has matched up with Obama the best. I really dislike conspiracy theories without proof. Reminds me too much of the Ron Paul people and Alex Jones.

[BBGC]

45. Yes, you are crazy..... Take a look around my friend

Americans have the memory of a gold fish.

Take a look at how many fools (both republicans AND democrats) think that the recession started under the presidents watch. Most of these people aren't biased, they literally have forgotten when it started.

Therefore, I am not worried in the slightest if during a 2nd Obama term a full on world wide great depression hits. A few years later, most of the people in this country will think it started 6 months prior.

[lonestarnot]

51. Whut are you talking about? ROFLMAO.

forgotten when it started.

[BootinUp]

54. "memory of a goldfish"

[lonestarnot]

52. I can't figure out why, but your thread, take a look at it.

I think I have alerted on four posts. Am I allowed to say that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. It is NEVER worth losing the presidency, because of the Supreme Court

4 more years as president means the chance to Justice Ginsberg, and possible Breyer; while forcing Scalia to hang on another 4 years in the hope he gets a Repub president in 2016. With Roberts looking as though he could sometimes be a swing vote as well as Kennedy, a plutocracy needs control of the SC more than ever to make like comfortable for themselves. Changes in the SC last for decades - you can't pass up the opportunity to make them.

The ability to direct war, and to appoint the Attorney General, who has a big influence on what gets prosecuted, is also vital for any group wanting to control the country. To give all this up, just for - what? "The inevitable collapse"? "The big crash"? Rich people don't benefit from a collapse - they benefit from control of a controllable economy.

You're not crazy - you're just repeating the same old "they're lulling us into a false sense of security" crap that gets trotted out every 4 years.

If you are truly disturbed by it, then perhaps you are crazy. I think more likely you just need a little drama and argument in your life.

[chknltl]

58. Care to join me in Wonderland Doctor?

I have never posted this anywhere, haven't even put it together well in my own mind yet but your OP inspires me to get your thoughts on this. (no offense taken if you think I am having an acid flashback, ok.)

What if there isn't a real PTB out there with a grand scheme that we follow. What if instead, this is a natural process, an ongoing dance between two partners: democracy and capitalism. I am visualizing both dancers in this as living, breathing but not sentient beings.

Both flow through their dance, using each other to achieve their needs, yet both block each other. Both desiring to lead both unhappy to follow.

(further down the rabbit hole....)
A more closer inspection of the dancer capitalism, reveals it to be a seething mass of conflicting 'emotions', each seeking the same goal: growth. These emotions would be known as the pharmaceutical industry, the energy industry, the military industrial complex, the gun industry the banking industry and etc. Each emotion determined to grow only itself. Of course there are a great many other industries within this dancer some are trying to grow but most are just trying to survive the growth of the others. Some, like the textile industry are almost gone.

Because each emotion seeks growth and some do grow the largest ones have the most control over this dancer capitalism, steering it in directions which optimize the emotions growth. This dancer appears to be drunk because no single emotion has full dominance through the dance.

An examination of the other dancer reveals a differing seething mass of emotions, these would be made up of collectives of the citizenry. Each collective emotion with an individual agenda of growth as well! These emotions are nebulous collectives of the citizenry that correspond to real life emotions: Fear, love, greed, compassion, hate, and etc. These real life emotions influence how we individuals within the electorate vote, and in doing so we join into the larger emotional collectives. And like the dancer capitalism, democracy dances drunk because no single emotion currently holds absolute control either.

Ok backing away from this fantasy vision, Doc, can you see my animation of these two forces?

When I view things from this perspective, I see the PTB as being lesser in control and more controlled. True they do what they think best for themselves but that very thinking strongly influenced by the higher power, capitalism or democracy.

In this visualization, it falls to the competing emotions within the current lead dancer capitalism to come up with a candidate for BOTH sides. The other dancer, democracy is not leading the dance, but its own competing emotions contribute to the candidate on both sides as well.

Sorry, I have yet to formulate this better in my mind but this is as good a place as any to get an opinion on what I am formulating. It disagrees with any conventional wisdom of course and as I see it it disagrees with the basis of your predictions within your OP but it 'feels' right.

Color me an optimist I can not see We the People giving up on either dancer capitalism or democracy. We are the ones who made them dance drunkenly through the corridors of our history and will keep that dance going into our future. Although I doubt that either man would agree with how I got to there, I suspect that Thom Hartmann and Dr. Ravi Batra would both concur with my assesment and predictions....

[The Doctor.]

63. I've considered that as well.

Indeed, it is both.

In this 'dance', unfortunately, it is inevitable that individuals will rise to echelons of control while the democratic 'side' will never have individuals with concentrated power.

We could talk about where the entities begin and end within and about individuals, but you're on the right track. Trust me.... we're both right.

[chknltl]

68. cool, thanks.

I have often heard unregulated capitalism refered to as a cancer within our democracy. It is not much of a leap to see other complex processes as living entities, imo, and re-evaluate them from that perspective. Thanks for your opinion and thanks for not thinking me too awful nuts for thinking this way.

[cbrer]

59. You may be crazy, but that's not the point.

Evidence abounds of systemic economic collapse for sure. However I would leave a little more leeway for alternate scenarios other than the one you paint.

Among other identifiable traits, Americans have a sense of indomitability. As many citizens that are aware of the massive screwing the middle class is taking, perhaps, as 1% policies become more and more outrageous, a tipping point of sorts will be reached where citizens revolt.

Don't get me wrong. This could easily devolve into social chaos. One that would leave the weak and vulnerable at risk.

And when the military and police forces are factored in, the variables tumble of their own weight.

It's simply unknowable which way she'll blow, but I believe the storm's a'comin!

[cbrer]

60. PS- L. Strauss is scary!

[Terrillary]

70. I'm surprised everyday

at how Mitt Romney has moved forward in the polls. The guy lies all day everyday about everything. The RWN's called John Kerry a flip flopper, Mittens has flipped and flopped like a fish out of water over issue after issue.

Some extremely right wing republicans that I know are settling for Romney, but they will vote for him regardless of how wrong he is for our country as long as he's not Obama. The e mails I receive daily with blanant lies about Obama are astonishing.

Some how FAUX news has a way of brain washing their listeners. Or are stupid people easier to brain wash?

Many of the same Catholics I know that are supporting Romney believed that being a Mormon was being part of a cult. Now they have made a complete turn around. Mormonism is a good Christian religion.

BTW, I don't think you're crazy, I see and hear this stuff everyday. Scares me.

Did you see that latest commercial put out by the Catholic Church regarding the election?

I think we can reduce the debt by taxing the churches that are supposed to stay out of politics.

[Jack Sprat]

75. What is a PTB?