No. It's not "hate". It's DISAPPOINTMENT.

[sibelian]

Last edited Sun Sep 13, 2015, 07:20 PM - Edit history (2)

It's DISAPPOINTING to be told that one's country's military influence is to be expanded and developed after over a decade of consequences from a disastrous, cruel and bullying intervention in the history of an innocent people.

It's DISAPPOINTING to be told that one is supposed to vote for someone based on what they are instead of what they intend to do.

It's DISAPPOINTING to hear people invent baseless perception problems of an honest candidate when they are alone in an entire system driven by phoniness and dishonesty.

It's DISAPPOINTING to see fellow lefties "play the game" that was originally invented by Republicans and patting themselves on the back for scoring points in a sickly, neurotic, anti-human process.

It's DISAPPOINTING to hear grown adults talk about whole demographics as if they are populated exclusively by mindless lumps of Play-Doh incapable of listening to anyone or anything that doesn't remind them of themselves.

It's DISAPPOINTING to make honest attempts to clear the way for better politics only to be confronted with a tsunami of babyish riffs on the theme of "you have whatever personality flaw I need to pretend you have to make my behaviour look reasonable to myself and your ideas dismissable as fantasy".

And above all (and I say this as s Scotsman in Edinburgh with no real right to say it to any of you good people...)

It's DISAPPOINTING, CRUELLY SO, to see the wonderful nation I have admired and respected for so long, the source of so much powerful thought and beautiful acheivement for decades (you may think you're a country of fascists and righties, hah! BULLSHIT - the Constitution, the Civil Rights Movement, Stonewall, the reconstruction of Europe post WWII, "One step for Man, a giant leap for Mankind", Iraq Vets Against the War (there is no similar movement of equivalent size and significance anywhere in Europe!), Chomsky... I could go on and on) abandon itself over and over again to exactly the same point-scoring, inward-looking, antidemocratic, prejudiced, class-and-character-based cynicism that its inhabitants crossed oceans to escape!!!

It's the same stupid, oppressive garbage that's plagued Europe for centuries. It's just better lit and on a bigger stage.

MORE screwy bank shenenigans. MORE wars. MORE faux politicians. MORE faux concern. MORE shadowy campaign finance. MORE posturing. MORE lies.

It's DISAPPOINTING.

[beam me up scottie]

1. Damn! Nailed it again, sibelian!

MORE screwy bank shenenigans. MORE wars. MORE faux politicians. MORE faux concern. MORE shadowy campaign finance. MORE posturing. MORE lies.

BRAVO!!!

[roguevalley]

19. this is an important statement for many reasons but also because it comes from other

shores and has distance in the emotion delivering it. Thank you, Sibelian. You did us all a solid.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Exactly!

sibelian knows we're not the fringe left who just hate Hillary and think Bernie's a messiah.

He gets it!

[840high]

56. ...^ that

[reformist2]

85. We need to reassert the concept of America as a land of bold, new, progressive, liberal, ideas.

Always changing. Never afraid to talk about new problems, and how the old ways aren't working anymore. And with conviction and level-headedness, not unreasonably. Passionate, but reasonable. This is what our politics used to be like, and can be again, once we rid ourselves of the corporate money stifling and smothering our political discourse.

[artislife]

2. That's it in a nutshell.

It is like watching a baby play peekaboo...they believe if they cover their eyes, you cannot see them.

[Autumn]

3. It's disappointing for someone I like to tell me she will let me know her position on something

that is important to me after she is elected. It's also insulting my intelligence but that a matter for a different discussion.

[sibelian]

7. I just can;t believe how everyone just accepts it now... not just in the US...

... it's become accepted in the UK as well. In fact, I think it's often worse in the UK. And in Australia...

Well, I guess I'm still smarting from Cameron and his bunch of cretinous, amoral wankers getting in again. But, hey. Jeremy's up and about and they're throwing everything they can at him.

Yes. It's long past time they treated us all with the common courtesy of informing us of their intentions as a bare minimum.

[roguevalley]

18. I wish I could rec this ten million times because this is the articulation of what most of us feel

about the mindlessness and personal nature of the opposition to Bernie. I wish I could hug you, I feel that strongly about this op.

[appalachiablue]

42. R & R. Great post. Very pleased with Corbyn's win. What's your view of the next election

in Scotland? I like old Britain and studied there a bit before the Thatcher, Cameron et al conservative destruction.

[sibelian]

53. Have to say I'm really not sure.

If Labour finally get their act together and stop going through the motions in Scotland they're in with a chance... They were booted out almost entirely through their palable sense of entitlement. I don't think even they realised how long they'd been relying on Scottish seats. But we're a funny lot, us haggis-shaggers. The great sea change to the SNP wasn't entirely an anomalous thing, normally we're quite predictable and then WHOOSH we just rip everything up and start again. It's not the first time this has happened. I saw it coming. It's very strange that Labour didn't.

They seriously need to clean up their act in Holyrood. No more games.

I thinkthe SNP is now here to stay. I don't think anyone will be able to deny that. What's interesting is that the two poles are going to be Labour and the SNP fighting over who gets to be more lefty! How often do you see THAT in a small European nation? I'm fair chuffed!

Labour will regain some of it's ground next election, inevitably. If Corbyn avoids being patronising, which is very likely, there will be a chunk of Scottish Labour seats again. The independence question remains unsettled but it can't trundle on forever, if there's another 'no' vote soonish (within a decade), I think it'll probably be put to rest for a long time. There does exist the possibility that we will actually vote yes... That would be very strange, now. The landscape's changed so quickly in Scotland over the last two years it's very hard to say what would follow. Even just before the referendum things were very different from the way they are now. It was a really courteous, friendly referendum, all things considered... I don't think the next one would be. We're getting polarised.

However, the SNP has protected us from fracking, tuition fees etc, people are getting quiteattached to them. They aren't going anywhere.

I'll be voting for them next time.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. The one sentence that should spring from the page:

"It's the same stupid, oppressive garbage that's plagued Europe for centuries. It's just better lit and on a bigger stage. "

[sibelian]

5. THAT'S what gets to me.

I think a lot of American lefties have fallen into the habit of considering their country be be somehow backwards and inherently right wing in terms of political analysis, activity and acheivement in comparison with the various Old Countries. Loads of people in the UK think the same thing. It's utter baldersash! Huge amounts of powerful modern left wing analysis comes from the States!

I believe that America is an amazing country. America has been a beacon for liberalism across the world since its beginning. And I feel so awful that American politicians have allowed their campaign processes to be corrupted with the worst of Europe's habits.

European politics is revolting! Oh, sure, we get to live in a generally more socialist bubble, but we are hideously complacent and most people in advanced European democracies have no idea that Europe as a political area is every bit as anomalous as the rest of the planet. We're just as complicit in our own corrupt systems as everyone else, we just have this idea that ours is somehow under control because we have opinions about it and a slightly above average propensity for satire.

America has shown the way countless times, and I firmly believe that it can and will do so again.

[Baitball Blogger]

13. We are going through a lot of growing pains that would be totally unnecessary

if we were students of history.

All you have to do is read up on the influence the English church had on government affairs to understand that Theocracy increased the level of misery during the early centuries. People keep referring to the Spanish Inquisition as if it was an outlier. The reality is, that people were being tortured and deprived of life and livelihood in the Anglo isles as well.

Lordie, we talk about our American colonists as if they were escaping a Totalitarian government that was devoid of religious influence. Quite the opposite. It was a form of government that SUPPORTED ONE FORM OF RELIGION AND DID NOT TOLERATE OTHERS. Shocking that Republicans would want to repeat that disastrous era.

But, I get it. If you want absolute power, the easiest way is to reign over the crazies. Then, release the crazies on the population to throw the country into chaos in order to cut down on organized dissent that can challenge the higher ups.

I so get it. Brilliant move throughout the ages. The fact that the same thing is happening in the era of the internet is not a good reflection about the ability of humanity to productively adapt.

[MisterP]

28. Britain wasn't actually a *theocracy*--interestingly the Inquisition picked up in viciousness

because it was a tool of the Crown; Spain got what Henry VIII had seceded to obtain

religion's inevitably tied to policy even today and even in, say, the USSR

[Baitball Blogger]

36. As for England: That is not my understanding based on what I've learned from years of

participating on a British social website. I have even read drafts from English writers who were writing about that era. I wouldn't be able to tell you if the Crown used the Church, or the Church used the Crown, but I do know that England did have its moment in history when the Church had way too much influence in government affairs. It is something that we should make every effort to avoid.

[MisterP]

37. who're they citing? which kings and churches, even?

[Baitball Blogger]

39. Do a search for England Theocracy.

This a perfect social media question. In sum, there is plenty of debate and perspectives on the subject. It won't be difficult to find discussions where people have cited specific moments in England's history that will attest to the Church's influence in England.

Yes, we view England's history as a Monarch, but it had its historical moments where that power was tested by the church. And when I say theocracy, I won't even take the easy way out and say that it was technically a theocracy when Henry the VIII assigned himself as head of the church.

[MisterP]

40. actually Kim Davis would see herself much like these people, as a dissident fighting a state

overinvolved in theology and persecuting those not toeing a religious line; everyone wants to be the underdog

[mdbl]

78. They used each other when it was convenient

then fought when their base of influence and power was threatened. To me that sums up the historical church/monarchy relationship.

[chervilant]

57. On what do you base that assertion?

Various religious mythologies have been inextricably linked with certain European and Middle Eastern "governments" throughout history, and Elaine Pagels presents a rather succinct discussion of this in her exceptional books, particularly "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent."

[daleanime]

6. You really nail it, personally I would change just one word...

for me, I would say Disgusting instead of Disappointing. But that just might be my low blood sugar talking.

[SidDithers]

8. Sometimes...

And sometimes it is hate.

Sid

[rhett o rick]

59. I think that some are quick to scream "hate" to justify their self-righteous retributions. nm

[SidDithers]

63. Some of us are able to recognize hate when we see it...

while others, obviously, can't or won't.

Sid

[L0oniX]

9. Nailed!

[treestar]

10. Disappointment is more annoying than hatred

It smacks of thinking you are owed something by somebody. The word annoys me. Maybe because my father used it too much.

It's like you do all you can and then someone is "disappointed." I always identify with the person being judged that way.

[7962]

31. You'd rather someone hate you than be disappointed in you?

I dont think I can wrap myself around that.
Hatred can cause war, genocide, discrimination, etc. I doubt that disappointment can do that.

[treestar]

47. It can, but it usually doesn't

I "hate" George Bush but the odds of a genocide against white male Texans, or discrimination against them is likely. Nor is war.

I would say war over Obama/Bernie or genocide ain't happening and is not to be worried about

[7962]

49. And I wouldnt think any Obama or Bernie supporters hated the other.

[sarge43]

11. "....with no real right to say it..."

On the contrary, real friends tell their friends to stop screwing up.

It's not disappointment; it hurts like hell. We are capable of so much more than this crabbed, mean hatefulness.

Thank you and Alba gu brath.

[sibelian]

12. THANK you, sir.

Peace be upon you!

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

14. Anxious to see how many recs you get!

Thank you.

[azurnoir]

15. Thank you

you said it so well

[jalan48]

16. I think the Democratic Party is about to go through some serious changes.

Obama was able to keep the Party together with 'Hope and Change' but Hillary, if she wins doesn't have the same charisma. The veneer has worn off the Third Way ruse and Americans know Wall St, the big banks and international trade deals aren't the way to a brighter future. Either the Party moves left or millions will abandon it for something new. No, this isn't a "I won't vote for Hillary" statement. It's a simple fact that people like Debbie Schultz need to wake up to-people are fed up with politics as usual and it isn't going to last much longer.

[appalachiablue]

43. +1

[cheapdate]

17. Excellent post!

Staring at the circus pantomime that is American electoral politics and confronted with the masses of apathetic, disengaged, and incurious Americans who are roused to action only when it involves a fetus, or the threat of boys-kissing-boys, it's easy to be disappointed.

I think that perhaps the biggest threat to America is her dumbing down. Fewer and fewer people read anything more challenging than the sports page or People magazine. Newspapers and bookstores are declining at a brisk pace. The American university system is steadily dropping any pretense of providing a well-rounded education in literature, history, philosophy and is becoming little more than vocational training. Public discourse has become so vulgar that fewer and fewer people could even recognize what tempered, reasoned debate even looks like.

I think statistically, only about 20% of Americans are politically engaged, and probably half of those are engaged for stupid and mistaken reasons.

[appalachiablue]

45. +1. Dumbing down to the extreme, loss of reading, almost total idot TV programming now unlike

earlier decades, corruption of liberal thinking in schools and universities and hatred of all things government. Mix in economic insecurity, minority scapegoating and pervasive Fox and hate media. What decline, but better day are ahead once we come out of the ultraconservative neoliberal pollution!

[Duval]

20. Disappointing as well as discouraging.

Well said sibelian. I'm a "Senior Citizen", have witnessed so many important milestones, some groans and moans also, but I have never seen my country so divided. It is my hope that our young people will rise up and help make changes. I am encouraged by Sanders' rise in the polls.

[elleng]

21. Thank you very much. You're right,

it is disappointing, and leads me to thoughts of inevitability and human nature.

[sibelian]

52. I think hope and optimisim and genuine progress are also inevitable, elleng...

Eventually everyone just gets sick of the bullshit! That happens over and over again, too.

I think the cycle's taken a long time to come around this time, but I have a tingly feeling...

[elleng]

65. Glad you have a tingly feeling, sibelian.

[merrily]

90. A lot of money and power has gone into making certain things seem like human nature,

inevitable and the only way forward: Either it's a certain way, or we all go rapidly to Hell in a gasoline-soaked handbasket.

It ain't necessarily so.

When we feel as though nothing we do or say makes a difference, including our vote or our pleas to our elected "representatives:"

http://www.britannica.com/topic/learned-helplessness

[dorkzilla]

23. K&R for illuminating the truth!!!

A thoughtful post! Thank you so much for taking the time to write and post this. Especially as a Scotsman...I’ve often wondered how it must look to your eyes since the principals espoused by our founding fathers had its roots in Soillseachadh na h-Alba, and the GOP has convinced their idiots that our Founding Fathers were a group of reverent God-worshipers who actually meant EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY SAID - that religion and government were completely separate things. But then again these are also the clowns that preach exactly the opposite of the person they claim to worship, Jesus Christ.

The professor at uni that taught a wonderful class about the Enlightenment was a Scotsman too (as was my Gran! Born in Campbelltown) and it was SUCH an amazing glass (because he was such an enthusiastic professor) that its one of the few classes that shaped my way of thinking and remains with me to this very day.

Thank you for this post. Wish I could K&R this all day.

[sibelian]

54. We've certainly got a history of pointing at authority figures and shouting:

"How the $%*£would YOU know, pal?!?!" lol

It's got it's advantages,being a bunch of belligerent tossers!!

[dorkzilla]

62. I generally tend to follow in that proud tradition!! nt

[MrMickeysMom]

24. It is THAT...

What's more disappointing is how short people's memories are.

You have more history, and probably a better system of education. We should take to heart and DO something about this disappointing state… because it's a STATE OF MIND.

Thanks, sibelian… You have every right to say it.

[Demeter]

25. Dear Sibelian, thank you for the compliment to the USA

I sincerely hope that in the coming years we live up to your expectations (and ours) and are worthy of your praise as we try to get the American dream back on track and moving forward.

AND

May it be in both our lifetimes!

[sibelian]

98. That is also my hope, Demeter.

Too many fucking smart-asses benefit from placing themselves above the American Dream.

They don't deserve to win.

[LWolf]

26. I can think of some other options.

Disappointing is better than "hate," but maybe not there yet. Here are some that pop to mind:

offensive
insulting
disheartening
discouraging
unmotivating
treacherous
depressing

[SalviaBlue]

27. K&R

[SixString]

29. Nailed it.

[snagglepuss]

30. An absolutely brilliant post. Although it nails the current situation, it transcends politics.

"you have whatever personality flaw I need to pretend you have to make my behaviour look reasonable to myself and your ideas dismissable as fantasy".


This is like a gift from the cosmos as it explains the dynamics of a very painful personal situation that has been profoundly destructive. Wow.




"I say this as a Scotsman in Edinburgh." Be still my beating heart. Having just recently devoured all of Ian Rankin's books, anything and anyone associated to Edinburgh is the object of my adoration . Is it Haggis, hills or heather that makes you Scots so insightful and articulate? Inquiring minds want to know.

[sibelian]

51. Oh, it makes me FURIOUS when people play that game.

Last edited Mon Sep 14, 2015, 03:25 PM - Edit history (1)

And it's so easy to identify, if the personality flaw only mysteriously turns up and has any meaning when the person accusing you of it wants something out of you.... if others who have no vested interest in benefitting from your attempting to mitigate against the imaginary flaw can't see it... UGH.

Manipulative nonsense!

As for me being insightful, well.... thank you! But I think my life has probably just been too hand-to-mouth for too long to have any patience with people who want to use me as a lightning conductor...

We can be a bit belligerent over here in Haggisland...

[cantbeserious]

32. On Point And Very Well Said

eom

[pscot]

33. That is a damned fine OP

[MuseRider]

34. Given the way this country

seeks to be the all to every other country on earth in both bad ways and good ways I think you have every right to talk about this and say what you say. Also being a long member here gives you the right to express your observations.

In some ways this was encouraging. I have talked to people, friends who live in other countries, and most of them look at me and ask me WTF are we thinking? Well, I don't know because not much of what has happened since I became aware has been anything I would have thought a grand plan, a few things yes. The things you expressed were good. They were big but isolated. None of that would happen now without a huge, years long fight. Still, we do forget. It is easy to forget in the mess we find ourselves in.

Anyway, it is very sad how it looks here and how it feels here. Thanks for the reminder of what we could be, what we have been but wow, it is going to take a miracle and many years to move there now. Unless......we all work together to assure a political revolution to rebuild this nation. I think we as a country would change rapidly once people began to feel useful, make a decent wage with time to not worry so much and relax, learned to work together for the good of the community (small to large). Once that starts the change will follow quicker. I sure hope so, we have a lot of correcting to do.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Excellent post!

Maybe they'll listen to you with your distant/better perspective because they sure as hell don't listen to us.

Thank you! It's always nice to hear what other people think about this country and its politics.

Bernie is trying to clear the way for better politics and make this country what it's suppose to be. To have the Third way DINO club trying to stop him is disheartening, to say the least. This is our chance and probably our last chance to reverse the damage caused by 40 years of Tinkle-On politics/policies.

[Uncle Joe]

38. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, sibelian.

[Live and Learn]

41. Exactly! nt

[Hatchling]

44. K&R!

You rock!

[WillyT]

46. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Enthusiast]

48. This post deserves hundreds of recommendations! K&R!

[CharlotteVale]

50. K&R

[TheJames]

55. OH, HELL YEAH,

And its enraging to someone who grew up here!!!!!

[840high]

58. Very strong K/R

[rhett o rick]

60. Well said. nm

[MannyGoldstein]

61. I may never post again

'cause this says it all, and say it so well.

Thank you.

[nolabels]

84. Oh, please, make it a promise

[MannyGoldstein]

86. Thank you.

I now have purpose for posting again.

[nolabels]

87. Remember, that the perfect world has always been imagined by an imperfect person

I never have a real reason for posting, but you know what the say, 'when if feels good then.......'

[sibelian]

93. Don't you DARE stop posting.

You're one of the reasons I came back!

[MannyGoldstein]

95. I guess those accents only make you people *sound* smart

But thank you.

[MerryBlooms]

64. Beaut! Happy to rec and kick.

[hifiguy]

66. Terrific post!

[liberal_at_heart]

67. I've been disappointed for over twenty years now. Maybe if some people perceive our

criticism as hate it is because we are so damn frustrated by how long we have had to endure these disappointments. I will admit I am frustrated and yes sometimes even angry. I am tired of waiting decade after decade for economic justice. I do not accept the label of hate though. I do not hate Hillary. I just will not vote for her. My vote will go to someone I believe will fight for economic justice and I just don't believe Hillary is that person.

[Hollingsworth]

68. It's more like worry for me.

There have been enough past disappointments, next phase is worry. I don't want a leader that is 'tough' and translates that toughness to military power. I want a tough candidate, like Bernie, tough against all odds and yet still making amazing headway recruiting people that are ready for something different.

[reflection]

69. Best rant I've heard in forever.

Bravo. Love it when someone crystallizes a point and then pounds it in your brain.

[marym625]

70. Bravo! or maybe Brava!

Wonderful. Beautiful. Thank you!

[sibelian]

71. Bravo in my case...

And thank YOU.

[marym625]

73. no, thank you

This is wonderful

[Thespian2]

72. K & R!!!

for stating the truth...

[Scootaloo]

74. Fucking amazing post. K&R

[mrdmk]

75. K & R, thank you for expressing your thoughts so brilliantly

It is very difficult come to a common workable solution when the affected do not know what the problem is. This could be said of any day-to-day task.

It seems to be chore to educate one self when given half-truths, half lies to out right non-sense.

[GitRDun]

76. DU would be a much better read if everyone who posts read this line before hitting the button

For me you can skip all of the rest.

It's DISAPPOINTING to hear grown adults talk about whole demographics as if they are populated exclusively by mindless lumps of Play-Doh incapable of listening to anyone or anything that doesn't remind them of themselves.

We all want the same things, a better life for our kids than we had. We all face many of the same day to day challenges. Yet somehow we manage to put a wall between each other over how to get there.

When we prescribe the intellectual road others must travel, are cruel when their path is not aligned with ours, value certainty over learning, we lose..we all lose.

[RealistComments]

77. Human nature doesn't change with geography

OP wrote "It's the same stupid, oppressive garbage that's plagued Europe for centuries."

Not a surprise, human nature doesn't change with geography.

Welcome to the real world.

[mdbl]

79. Money and propaganda

are the root causes of what you cite as disappointing. If those factors aren't changed, we can all just keep banging our heads on the table. At one time, I thought ideology and religion were major players, but have come to realize they are just tools of propagandists trying to acquire more wealth and power.

[sabrina 1]

80. You couldn't be more right, Sibelian. Don't judge the country by what you see

on internet forums though. Out in the real world, people are very different than what you see here. They are ANGRY and FRUSTRATED and those in power are working hard to hold on to what they stole from the people. So we see the talking points, the attempts to intimidate etc, they will try ANYTHING to stop the people from creating the movement necessary to send them back to where they came from and restore the power to the people that THEY have spent decades trying to take away.

[sibelian]

97. I believe you.

You're here, after all, aren't you?

(((sabrina 1)))

[haikugal]

81. That brought tears to my eyes...

I'm still moved. You touched the spot that is so tender, the wound that won't heal.

Of course your a Scottsman, a kinsman with a keen eye and generous heart.

Thank you!

[sibelian]

96. ... :O

(((haikugal)))

[davidpdx]

82. K & R

This just says it all. Sibelian speaks for me.

226th record was from me. I hope you make it to 250 in the next couple hours.

[sibelian]

91. I haven't, but I'm amazed anyway!

Fuck me!

[Skwmom]

83. I agree. n/t

[raouldukelives]

88. We exist in the most reality Wall St investors will allow.

All of our woes and most of the worlds woes can be laid at the feet of those who care more for money than being a decent steward to fellow human beings and our natural world.

They cannot even be honest with themselves about what they accomplish day in and day out. Laboring and investing in some of the most racist, conservative, sexist, deceitful, polluting and war mongering industries in the world and then having the gall to wonder why the world is the way it is.

[d_legendary1]

89. What's that one liner the right wingers always say:

Why do you hate America?




Well said. We've essentially become England back when it was conquering the world.

[sibelian]

92. IT's so AWFUL. It's so twisted and *genuinely* ironic!

Not the irony we're told we're supposed to see in dumb exchganges on message boards, truly historically ironic!

[d_legendary1]

94. Yup. We're supposed to be proud of our accomplishments

because America breeds winners...or something like that. It makes the phrase "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" much more meaningful.