NBC's Chuck Todd: Bernie Sanders Was 'There' On Same-Sex Marriage 20 Years Ago - Politifact

[WillyT]

NBC's Chuck Todd: Bernie Sanders was 'there' on same-sex marriage 20 years ago
By Jon Greenberg - Politifact
Tuesday, September 29th, 2015 at 5:00 p.m.


Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., speaks at the University of Chicago on September 28, 2015. (Getty)

<snip>

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and his presidential campaign serve as an almost constant reminder that Hillary Clinton has not always taken the lead on issues near and dear to the more liberal members of the Democratic Party. She only recently declared that she opposed the Keystone XL pipeline that would link oil from the tar sand fields of Canada to refineries on the Gulf Coast. On same-sex marriage, Clinton’s views evolved.

As PolitiFact has described, in 1999, Clinton both supported the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defined marriage as between a man and woman, and legal recognition of civil unions. By 2007, she opposed DOMA, but fell short of backing same-sex marriage. Then in 2013, she came out in favor of same-sex marriage pure and simple.

Chuck Todd, the host of NBC’s Meet the Press, focused on same-sex marriage during an interview with Clinton on Sept. 27, 2015.

"Bernie Sanders has been where you are on these issues," Todd said. "Bernie Sanders was there when it came to marriage 20 years ago. Do you think one of the reasons he's doing well right now is some progressives think, ‘Well, you know what? He was there when it wasn't popular.’"

Clinton said Sanders could speak for himself and used the question to attack Republicans.

Here, we wanted to look at whether Sanders supported same-sex marriage two decades ago.

What we found was long-standing support for gay rights in general, a voting record consistent with same-sex marriage, but not much in the way of public statements on behalf of same-sex marriage itself:

<snip>

More: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/29/chuck-todd/nbcs-chuck-todd-bernie-sanders-there-same-sex-marr/

[DURHAM D]

1. Todd is wrong about "marriage" and Bernie 20 years ago. nt

[LiberalArkie]

2. Bernie indeed never said "Marriage", but did say strike down the laws dealing with sexual behavior

back in 1972. That I think closer to the subject than anyone else. All I have is what he wrote in 1973 so I don't know if he mentioned marriage in 1995. I can't think of anyone who was thinking of gay marriage back then, civil unions yes but not marriage.

[DURHAM D]

6. Correct.

DU and Media have created a romanticized version of what he was talking about. Just look down thread.

jftr - When HRC and other organizations called him for help on legislation or fund raising or attending a banquet he almost never bothered to respond. It wasn't his thing.

[LiberalArkie]

11. I think that if the concept of "Gay Marriage" had been asked he would have been ok with it.

Everything he has stood for over the years has always been equality, equal rights no matter if you are black/white male/female gay/straight.

[Luminous Animal]

14. He voted FOR Barnie Franks's amendment to that bigoted bill DOMA (which Hillary supported)

and stated so during her 2000 Senate campaign), that would allow the issue of marriage equality to be left up to individual states. This was an amendment to mitigate the damage of DOMA. This was in 1996 when 68% of the electoral was against marriage equality.

Here is your candidate in 2004. It is disgusting and mimics every rightwing preacher I've ever heard on the subject of marriage equality.

[6chars]

116. that's not pretty

hadn't seen it before, but in so many words she is saying that somehow same sex marriage diminishes her own efforts to maintain a traditional marriage in the face of infidelity. i am surprised that is what she took away from that experience. fortunately she has changed her view on this.

[merrily]

122. The claim that Sanders was less concerned about equal marriage than Hillary is shameful bullshit.

[merrily]

121. Thank you. She supported DOMA, made that speech and did not come out for equal marriage until 2013,

but somehow she was more on the side of equal marriage before the guy who voted against DOMA.

That claim is shameful.

[sabrina 1]

101. From the minute it became an issue he supported it. And even more impressive, 20 years BEFORE THAT,

when it was extremely unpopular, he marched for gays in Vt, where was Hillary back then do you know?

His record on Civil Rights for Gays and Minorities and Women is one of the best, going way back to when it was not popular to do so, which is why we are seeing the old Rovian tactic of TRYING, though not very successfully, to attack him on HIS strengths, because there candidate's record is so poor on these issues.

People are just laughing now at the attempt to actually change facts, as if that were even possible in the Information Age.

Bottom line, Bernie on Civil Rights for all Americans, is one of the best we've ever seen in a candidate for the WH. THAT is a fact, and one of the reasons I support him.

[merrily]

120. When was HRC legislating for equal marriage again? She did not come out for it until 2013.

She made a speech on the Senate floor against it.


Doing what Sanders advocated for in 1972, abolishing laws about homosexuality, would in fact have resulted in equal marriage and even gay activists organizations were not advocating for equal marriage by name in 1972.

[WillyT]

3. Really ???

From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/128056624

[sheshe2]

10. Willy, would you clarify a bit,

You just linked to DU poster that posted the same thing you did.

Where is the link to the article? The article itself? Where is it Willy? You just posted an unsupported statement.

Link please.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Not Good Enough Willy?

You just posted an unsupported statement.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251461135

[sabrina 1]

103. Lol! Thanks BMUS!

[beam me up scottie]

105. Glass houses and all that. :)

[sabrina 1]

108. Yes, glasshouses! Lol!

[LiberalArkie]

12. I ten to like that article.

[Historic NY]

87. Where does it say gay marriage...

gay wasn't even the term in vogue then or he would have used it. One could say from what you posted he was in favor of bestiality, incest, etc...

[merrily]

123. Please see Reply 120 and don't play brand new.

[beam me up scottie]

150. Good catch, I see a new meme being created.

[merrily]

153. Thanks, bmus.

[Historic NY]

151. None of what you posted was more than supposition....

as if you had a way back time machine. Any chanceto advance it then died with Baker v Nelson.

[merrily]

152. It was much more than supposition. I'm sorry you apparently were unable to follow it.

Way back machine? You seem desperate to post anything, even if you embarrass yourself. Sad.

[WillyT]

4. See... Here's You're Problem... Bernie Sanders Has Held The Same Viewes For About 40 Years...

He doesn't need to "evolve"...

He was way ahead of most of us.

[Luminous Animal]

5. "Todd’s claim is accurate. We rate it True."

While Hillary was waxing poetic about wanting to keep the communities of LBGTQ folks as second class citizens, Bernie is on record of expanding civil rights.

Sanders had a couple of key opportunities to vote as DOMA moved through the House. As the bill was headed for a final vote, Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., offered an amendment that would allow each state to set its own definition of marriage. Sanders joined about 100 lawmakers in supporting Frank’s amendment, far short of the total needed.

On DOMA itself, Sanders was part of a smaller group of opponents, just 67. The bill passed and President Bill Clinton signed it in September.

Hillary in 2004

[sabrina 1]

106. Hillary was still not evolved on Gay Marriage just two years ago. By then of course, it was fairly

safe to evolve.

Which is why I support Sanders, he never gave a damn whether something was politically safe or not, if it was the right thing to do, he did it.

Sick to death of those now desperately struggling to change the record. It's just not going to happen, no matter how hard they try. I do feel sorry for them in the senses that Hillary is a very difficult candidate to defend, because it isn't just one, or two issues, it is so many on which she was just flat out wrong.

So people have to turn themselves into pretzels trying to defend her.

And the other, far more despicable tactic, is to try to change Bernie's record, again not possible.

[merrily]

124. Obama came out for equal marriage (again) in 2012 WHILE RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

[Prism]

133. That's what gets me.

President Obama risked something for us. Hillary Clinton risked nothing.

That matters to me.

[neverforget]

19. Well I'm convinced with your supporting evidence.

[merrily]

125. Please also see Reply 120. Sanders also okayed and marched in the first gay rights

parade in Vermont while Mayor of Burlington.

A lot of shameful bullshit on this thread.

[neverforget]

134. They're attacking where he's strong to make it seem as though

it's a negative. It sure is s bunch of bullshit.

[merrily]

135. Equal marriage is perhaps the last thing about which Hillary should attack anyone.

I don't know any Democrat who was standing for "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" until 2013.

[beam me up scottie]

7. I'll just leave these here:

32 Years Before Marriage Equality, Bernie Sanders Fought For Gay Rights



But these are only very recent developments. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton may be champions of same-sex marriage now, but you don’t have to go far back to find a time when they weren’t. And hey, we’re happy to have their evolved support.

Not only did Sanders vote against the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996 which defined marriage as between one man and one woman, signed into law by then-president Bill Clinton — an unpopular position then — a look back at Sanders’ political career shows consistent support of the gay rights movement. Even when it was more than just unpopular, it was downright controversial.

“In our democratic society, it is the responsibility of government to safeguard civil liberties and civil rights — especially the freedom of speech and expression,” Sanders wrote later in a memo. “In a free society, we must all be committed to the mutual respect of each others lifestyle.”

...

“It is my very strong view that a society which proclaims human freedom as its goal, as the United States does, must work unceasingly to end discrimination against all people. I am happy to say that this past year, in Burlington, we have made some important progress by adopting an ordinance which prohibits discrimination in housing. This law will give legal protection not only to welfare recipients, and families with children, the elderly and the handicapped — but to the gay community as well.”

http://www.queerty.com/32-years-before-marriage-equality-bernie-sanders-fought-for-gay-rights-20150719

On LGBT Rights, Bernie Leads and Hillary Follows

Of course, Clinton has since evolved on LGBT rights, as many have. That's wonderful. But the problem is, she only came out in support of marriage equality after it was not politically risky to do so. In fact, by 2013 - the year Clinton announced her full support for marriage equality - Democratic support for same-sex marriage was the norm, not the exception.

On such an important moral issue that affects my life and the lives of thousands of other Americans, making decisions in this manner is rather despicable. Additionally, Clinton's habit of doing what polls deem politically popular is the reason why so many voters find her inauthentic. Now, if Clinton were the only option for the Democratic presidential nomination, I would understand why we should support her despite these flaws.

But she isn't the only option.

Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the longest-serving Independent in the history of Congress, is also running for the nomination. And unlike Clinton, his record on LGBT rights is historically excellent.

Sanders voted against DOMA, one of the few members of Congress to do so, at a time when such a stance was not politically popular. Four years after DOMA passed, Sanders helped champion Vermont's decision in 2000 to become the first state to legalize same-sex civil unions. This set a national precedent for LGBT equality achieved via legislative means. In 2009, when Vermont became the first state to allow marriage equality through legislative action rather than a court ruling, Sanders expressed his support once again. Truly, Sanders has been a real leader on LGBT rights, even if this leadership isn't recognized in the way that Clinton's current support is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-novak/on-lgbt-rights-bernie-lea_b_7662682.html

Bernie Sanders Was for Full Gay Equality 40 Years Ago

Today’s Supreme Court decision was a monumental moment in American history, as it guaranteed the right for gays and lesbians to get married and established full marriage equality.

Many politicians offered their words of support, including President Obama and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.

Yet it is important to remember that Obama and Clinton both opposed marriage equality as late as early 2012. It is a testament to the work of thousands of activists over decades that the political class was pulled towards supporting equality.

There is however one prominent politician who did not wait so long to call for full gay equality: Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT)

In a letter he published in the early 1970’s, when he was a candidate for governor of Vermont from the Liberty Union Party, Sanders invoked freedom to call for the abolition of all laws related to homosexuality:

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/bernie-sanders-was-full-gay-equality-40-years-ago

Sanders: I was ahead of the curve on gay rights

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said Saturday he has been waiting for the nation to catch up to his support for same-sex marriage.

Sanders’ remarks come a day after Friday’s landmark 5-4 Supreme Court ruling legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide.

He argued he was well ahead of the historic decision, unlike Hillary Clinton, his main rival for the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination.

...

Sanders at the time served in the House of Representatives, which voted 342-67 in favor of DOMA. The Senate voted 85-14 in favor, before former President Bill Clinton signed it into law.

“That was an anti-gay marriage piece of legislation,” he added of the law that defined marriage at the federal level as the coupling of one man and one woman.

Sanders on Saturday praised Americans for creating greater opportunities for same-sex couples. Friday’s Supreme Court ruling, he charged, was not possible without national pressure for gay rights.

“No one here should think for one second this starts with the Supreme Court,” Sanders said.

“It starts at the grassroots level in all 50 states,” he said. “The American people want to end discrimination in all its forms.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/246370-sanders-i-was-ahead-of-the-curve-on-gay-rights

Bernie Sanders was decades ahead of the country on gay rights and ending the war on drugs

Most Americans now support legally allowing gay and lesbian relationships, same-sex marriage, and personal marijuana use after decades of shifting public opinion. But one Democratic candidate for president, Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, was calling for many of these changes decades ago.

In a 1972 letter to a local newspaper — which was recently resurfaced by Chelsea Summers at the New Republic — Sanders wrote that he supported abolishing "all laws dealing with abortion, drugs, sexual behavior (adultery, homosexuality, etc.)" as part of his campaign for Vermont governor:

These stances were far removed from public opinion at the time, according to Gallup surveys on marijuana and gay and lesbian rights. In 1972, 81 percent of Americans said marijuana should be illegal — which suggests even more would favor the prohibition of more dangerous drugs like cocaine and heroin. In 1977, the earliest year of polling data, 43 percent of Americans said gay and lesbian relations between consenting adults should not be legal, while 43 percent said they should be legal.

...

But it took decades for the American public to come around to majority support on these issues: It wasn't until 2013 that a majority of Americans supported marijuana legalization, the early 2000s that most consistently responded in favor of legal gay and lesbian relations, and 2011 that a majority first reported backing same-sex marriage rights.

Sanders has carried many of these positions to this day. He was one of the few federal lawmakers to vote against the Defense of Marriage Act, the federal ban on same-sex marriages, in the 1990s. And while he told Time's Jay Newton-Small in March that he has no current stance on marijuana legalization (but backs medical marijuana), he characterized the war on drugs as costly and destructive.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/7/8905905/sanders-drugs-gay-rights

Bernie Sanders' Views On Gay Marriage Show He's Been A Supporter For A Long Time

Now that he's officially announced he will seek the Democratic nomination for president and challenge Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders will be talking about his positions on major issues on the campaign trail, and one very big issue he has championed for years is gay marriage. Sanders, unlike some of his potential Republican opponents, seems like he would not turn down an invitation to a gay wedding (and he might actually get invited to one).

In 1996, then-Representative Sanders voted against the Defense of Marriage Act, which barred recognition of gay marriage at the federal level (DOMA was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2013). Sanders' and his home state of Vermont were the first to legalize same-sex unions in 2000, at first recognizing them as civil unions. Gay marriage has been legal in Vermont since 2009, and as The New York Times reported, Vermont was the first state to pass legislation in support of same-sex marriage, rather than in reaction to a court ruling.

On Tuesday, as the Supreme Court took up the issue of gay marriage, Sanders issued a statement on his website reaffirming his support, saying gay Americans in every state should be allowed to marry.

Of course all citizens deserve equal rights. It’s time for the Supreme Court to catch up to the American people and legalize gay marriage.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/79951-bernie-sanders-views-on-gay-marriage-show-hes-been-a-supporter-for-a-long-time

Is Bernie Sanders the Most LGBT-Friendly Candidate?

Bernie Sanders, the longest-serving independent member of Congress, is officially seeking the Democratic nomination for president in 2016, the Vermont senator announced in an email to supporters this morning.

"People should not underestimate me," Sanders told the Associated Press in an interview that broke the news of his candidacy Wednesday night. "I've run outside of the two-party system, defeating Democrats and Republicans, taking on big-money candidates and, you know, I think the message that has resonated in Vermont is a message that can resonate all over this country."

The self-described "Democratic socialist" wants to challenge the business-as-usual trend of big money in politics that he says dominates the current candidates — including Hillary Clinton.

The thrust of Sanders's campaign thus far — like his political career as the mayor of Burlington, Vt., 16 years in the U.S. House of Representatives, and the past seven in the U.S. Senate — has focused on supporting working-class Americans through elevated taxes on the wealthy and correcting income inequality "which is now reaching obscene levels," he told the AP.

But Sanders has also been a steadfast and reliable supporter of LGBT equality, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act when it passed the Senate in 2013 and even calling on President Obama to evolve already and support marriage equality in 2011. He's a cosponsor of the federal LGBT-inclusive Student Non-Discrimination Act and has consistently voted against bills seeking to amend the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage, while cosponsoring a bill that would repeal the remaining portions of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act. Sanders has a perfect score of 100 percent on the Human Rights Campaign's latest Congressional Equality Index.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/election/2015/04/30/bernie-sanders-most-lgbt-friendly-candidate

[WillyT]

8. + 1,000,000,000 - What You Said !!!

[beam me up scottie]

9. Cheers, WillyT!

[restorefreedom]

16. damn, you're good! + 1000000 nt

[beam me up scottie]

18. I should be, they've been pulling this shit for months. :)

[restorefreedom]

20. yup. and months some more i think. nt

[zeemike]

29. And it will continue for months yet.

They have hitched their team to that distortion of facts and are going full tilt with it...Hillary is the champion and Bernie is not good enough.

[Phlem]

22. !!!!

[beam me up scottie]

24. .

[Dustlawyer]

27. This is what's known as a principled stand! He stood by his beliefs even though they were highly

un-popular because he felt it was the right thing to do. It was also a stand based firmly in the Constitution.
Someone should show this to Hillary so she would know what it looks like. I cannot imagine her taking a stand for something she believes in that 68% of Americans were against unless there was a VERY LARGE donation in it for her to make it worthwhile!

[beam me up scottie]

34. Yes, he didn't need to evolve on marriage equality.

His civil rights record is superior, all the spin in the world can't change the facts.

[840high]

57. Amen.

[merrily]

128. even for a large donation, she would not have supported something 68% of Americans were against.

By 2004, the Clintons had plenty of money. What they did not have was Hillary as the first woman President (also the first Presidential couple).

Members of the LGBT community are a healthy percentage of Democratic bundlers--and they had, shall we say, worked closely with the 2008 and 2012 Obama campaigns and with the Obama administration from 2008 to 2012. It's my theory--and yes, it's speculation--that they said to Obama in 2012, "Okay, we've been patient enough with Democrats who use us to run for President then enact DADT and DOMA and or invite Warren to speak at the most widely broadcast event in human history, then claim the CIC cannot do anything about DADT. Say something or do your own bundling."

I see no other reason he would not have waited until he was re-elected before taking a stance he had taken in 1994, but very clearly did not want to take in 2008 (or in 2012, or Warren would not have been the one to give the invocation in 2009).

[senz]

112. You're like a librarian of postworthy info about Bernie.

Thank you for saving these and sharing them where they can do the most good.

[beam me up scottie]

113. Thanks, senz.

I bookmark links in case I need them, after awhile they add up.

[6chars]

117. This should be an OP

Of course, be careful not to tell LGBT folks how to vote, or to assume that they "owe" him their votes just because of things he did 40 years ago.

[beam me up scottie]

149. Thanks, but I would never tell anyone how to vote.

I post the facts and let others decide for themselves.

[TM99]

118. Now that is one fine rebuttal!

Excellent and all true!

[merrily]

126. BMUS, you have a lot more patience for shameless bullshit smears than I do.

That's the good news. The bad news is that, no matter what gets posted or proven, they'll make the same claims tomorrow or the next day.

Sisyphus had more luck with his rock than Bernie's supporters have with their facts and links.

[beam me up scottie]

142. Thanks! I just keep posting the facts and watching them move the goalposts.

Never fails to amaze how far they're willing to go to ignore, deny, obfuscate, deflect and derail the discussion.

Trying to turn Bernie's strengths into weaknesses is always going to be an epic fail.

[merrily]

145. You're more than welcome. I am not so willing as I used to be to provide links, etc.

[DianeK]

154. Thank you so much..

for posting this...this should put to rest this tired old arguement..Bernie has been representing me for years..first as a representative and then as my senator..i remember back in the very early days before he held any office and my mom and dad's door was one of the many many doors he knocked on in his pursuit to serve the people..we happen to love Bernie up here and I will tell you this..when parade time came around one year, Jim Jeffords was in that parade..I live in a very republican part of the state..there was polite applause for jeffords...but when bernie showed up in the same parade a little ways behind jeffords there was thunderous response great animation

[beam me up scottie]

155. You're welcome, fellow Vermonter!

I had the pleasure of meeting Bernie too, he's the real deal.

We know who has always had our back in Vermont, now it's time to share him with the rest of the country.


And Jim Jeffords should also be commended for his courageousness, leaving his party after decades wasn't easy, and his "friends" in Washington made life hell for him after he defected.

[DianeK]

156. I could not agree more about Jim Jeffords

Those years leading up to that were so difficult for him!

[beam me up scottie]

157. When he abandoned his party it was quite a statement.

To say it sent shock waves through Washington is an understatement.

They were OUTRAGED by his betrayal.

And Vermonters were never so proud of their Senator.

[Omaha Steve]

13. "constant reminder that Hillary Clinton has not always taken the lead on issues"

K&R!

[restorefreedom]

17. looks like chuckie toaster pastries

is starting to feel the bern


boooyah!!!

[BlueWaveDem]

21. Hillary Clinton has done more for lgbt rights today alone than Bernie has in 30 years.

Literally, today alone: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/at-clinton-global-initiative-annual-meeting-hrc-to-launch-groundbreaking-global-corporate-coalition-to-advance-lgbt-equality-in-workplaces-worldwide-300150972.html

[Phlem]

23. !!!

[kenfrequed]

25. By doing what?

Gathering a bunch of corporations together to get them to promise not to discriminate against gays in the workplace? Precisely how enforceable is this? Is this anything more than campaign window dressing by corporations that are already major contributors looking to rainbow-wash their brands and aide Hillary in expunging her proto-evolutionary statements well available on YouTube?

And how many of these corporations use international sweatshop labor in places where it would be utterly improbable and unlikely for them to even be monitored for any of their practices?

This is PR and that is all.

[BlueWaveDem]

28. Bernie's not out there on the front lines.

Hillary is out there making global change. She's a global citizen making profound changes in the global community. Whether it's going to China 20 years ago and making them squirm as she discusses women's rights to their governments faces, to fighting AIDS in Africa today, to advocating lgbt rights to a global audience, organizing massive fundraisers to fund medical research in 3rd world countries, etc. What has Bernie done with his 30 years in public office, cast a few votes?

[Phlem]

30. Oh my, the double down.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Bernie was casting votes for marriage equality instead opposing it like Hillary.

And this is one of those speeches she made:

[BlueWaveDem]

35. Which votes are you referring to?

And casting votes isn't the same as "fighting for" something. When has he fought for something, or actually organized a massive action? Hillary is a global citizen who goes to foreign soil and gives governments global demands.

[beam me up scottie]

39. So her fierce opposition to marriage equality was "fighting for" what?

Did you even watch the video?

"I believe marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman. I have had occasion in my life to defend marriage, to stand up for marriage, to believe in the hard work and challenge of marriage. So I take umbrage at anyone who might suggest that those of us who worry about amending the Constitution are less committed to the sanctity of marriage, or to the fundamental bedrock principle that it exists between a man and a woman, going back into the midst of history as one of the founding, foundational institutions of history and humanity and civilization, and that its primary, principal role during those millennia has been the raising and socializing of children for the society into which they are to become adults."

[BlueWaveDem]

42. She is free to believe whatever she chooses.

There is a difference between ones own personal belief's and how they would legislate. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I sure would fight like hell to keep it Constitutionally protected.

Same way I feel about religion; build all the churches you want, just keep it out of my government.

[beam me up scottie]

43. She fought against lgbt civil rights, do you not get that?

She believed they shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexuals because of her religion.

That is no different than fighting against reproductive rights because of religious beliefs.

[BlueWaveDem]

46. Which votes are you referring to?

You can't tell me her non-votes were her "fighting against" while also claiming Bernie's votes was him "fighting for".

[beam me up scottie]

48. I said she fought against marriage equality, what part of my post is incorrect?

[BlueWaveDem]

49. I updated my previous post. Reread.

[beam me up scottie]

52. Which part of my post is incorrect? Did she or did she not oppose marriage equality?

Did she or did she not say she would have voted for DOMA if she had been in the Senate in 1996?

[BlueWaveDem]

62. Did she vote for it?

[beam me up scottie]

64. Which part of my post is incorrect? Be specific.

[merrily]

138. My, my, my.

Votes vs. speeches vs other actions Make up your mind.


Hillary's 2004 speech on the Senate floor against equal marriage doesn't matter, as long as she didn't vote on it (because DOMA was already law when she got to the Senate), but she makes a speech overseas and that's somehow an accomplishment that surpasses everything Bernie did for equal LGBT rights?

[kenfrequed]

33. We have always been at war with eastasia.

Seriously, the doublethink required to buy into your post is stunning.

She has made speeches that really weren't all that bold and she has corporate friends. You don't get to flush all of her retrograde, regressive, and pro corporate positions down the goddamned memory hole with a little bit of PR.

Bernie Sanders has stood up for the powerless and the poor and the voiceless when the Clintons were triangulating with Newt Gingrich and passing DOMA, and NAFTA. Please try to sell this nonsense somewhere else.

[BlueWaveDem]

37. Show me his record.

And I'm not talking about his career of casting mostly meaningless votes, but real world action. Him commanding a global audience of governments and the people.

[kenfrequed]

40. Show me Secretary Clinton's record as soil conservation comissioner

Logically nonsensical.

Senator Sanders has been a mayor, a representative, and is a Senator.

He has not been a first lady, nor the head of some large corporate sponsored charity, nor has he been Secretary of state.

I measure his leadership on the issues of the day in the US in his capacities he has performed. I measure Secretary Clinton the same way. One of these two has been on the correct side of history almost every time and it is not Secretary Clinton.

I don't choose a president based on PR bullshit.

[BlueWaveDem]

45. But it's not PR when Bernie suddenly introduces legislation

That he didn't bother introducing 5 years ago when Democrats had majority?

Hillary walks the walk. She is a global citizen.

[kenfrequed]

47. She walks with her corporate friends.

I trust the person who stood up for people when it wasn't politically expedient.

[BlueWaveDem]

51. Bernie hasn't stood up, he cast votes.

Standing up is what Hillary does, actual massive global action that positively effects the global community.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Voting against laws that restrict the rights of lgbt people IS standing up for them.

[BlueWaveDem]

56. Fine. But it's still a far cry from the global action Hillary has done.

Again, this is today alone: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/at-clinton-global-initiative-annual-meeting-hrc-to-launch-groundbreaking-global-corporate-coalition-to-advance-lgbt-equality-in-workplaces-worldwide-300150972.html

Did you even know about this story before I posted? Of course not, but that's just a daily snippet in the life of Hillary's incredible global work that goes unnoticed.

My definition of "standing up" goes far beyond some votes cast.

[beam me up scottie]

58. My definition of "standing up" for lgbt rights is fighting for marriage equality, not against it.

Her speech today does not change her record of opposition to marriage equality, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

[BlueWaveDem]

61. Again, so her non-votes = fighting against, but Bernie's votes = fighting for?

Its ok to say something nice about Hillary.

[beam me up scottie]

63. Bernie's votes for ssm = fighting for it, her many speeches against ssm = fighting against it

[BlueWaveDem]

65. So when Bernie voted for the 1994 crime bill he was "fighting for it"?

Another vote Hillary didn't cast.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Red herring, the topic is marriage equality. Do you understand the facts now?

[BlueWaveDem]

78. Just trying to understand your logic:

?

[beam me up scottie]

79. Logic? You keep using that word...

[BlueWaveDem]

109. You can quit with the childish meme pics.

How original. It's like 2006 all over again.

[beam me up scottie]

111. Quit flinging those logical fallacies around like toys and I won't have to post them.

[merrily]

139. Logical fallacies, double standards, sweeping unsupported statements. Lot of variety!

Abbondanza!

[senz]

114. The ONLY reason she's doing that is b/c she's running for President.

She has no convictions. None. She just says what she thinks will get her the nomination.

Bernie speaks from the heart. He has held the same fine convictions for decades. This is who he actually is.

It's night and day. Real and fake.

[merrily]

136. LOLOL!

[d_legendary1]

26. You're right. Her push for DOMA and her belief in traditional marriage

set back the LGBT community back a few years. Or are you talking about the Supreme Court's ruling on striking down Doma, which put them back to being second class citizens?

Technically you're not wrong.

[BlueWaveDem]

32. That is 100% false rhetoric.

DOMA passed both houses with a veto proof majority. Meanwhile, Bill held no signing ceremony and allowed no photographers, stating DOMA was "divisive and unnecessary". He, along with key legislators, later advocated for its complete repeal.

The reality of it is incredibly different from your version.

[Duckhunter935]

36. did he sign it?

Did she vote for it?

Simple questions

[BlueWaveDem]

38. Do First Lady's typically vote on legislation?

[Duckhunter935]

68. "Hillary stated that she would have supported DOMA if she had been in the Senate in 1996:"

Supports DOMA, which Bill Clinton signed

Hillary stated categorically that she opposed legalizing same-sex marriage. She provided a clear explanation that to this day is the most quoted statement enunciating her position. “Marriage has historic, religious, and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman. But I also believe that people in committed gay marriages, as they believe them to be, should be given rights under the law that recognize and respect their relationship.“

Hillary said she backed her husband’s signing of the Defense of Marriage Act. She said what everyone wanted to know: Yes, if she had been in the Senate in 1996, she would have supported the law.
Source: God and Hillary Clinton, by Paul Kengor, p.189-190 , Jul 18, 2007

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Civil_Rights.htm

Thanks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=634131

[BlueWaveDem]

84. You are posting a rightwing source..

Find out Paul Kengor. She never said that.

[beam me up scottie]

88. She supported DOMA in 1996:

Clinton spokeman Phil Singer adds, "Sen. Clinton backed the Defense of Marriage Act because it enabled us to fend off right wing attacks like the Federal Marriage Amendment by keeping marriage as the purview of the states. She believes DOMA served an important purpose in that respect. Marriage should be left up to the states.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2007/06/hillary-repudiates-doma-001627#ixzz3nCBpYf8S

[BlueWaveDem]

91. Quote says nothing about supporting DOMA.

I wouldn't personally have an abortion, but I want it kept Constitutionally legal.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Clinton spokeman Phil Singer adds, "Sen. Clinton backed the Defense of Marriage Act"

Clinton spokeman Phil Singer adds, "Sen. Clinton backed the Defense of Marriage Act because it enabled us to fend off right wing attacks like the Federal Marriage Amendment by keeping marriage as the purview of the states. She believes DOMA served an important purpose in that respect. Marriage should be left up to the states.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2007/06/hillary-repudiates-doma-001627#ixzz3nCC9rGyi

[BlueWaveDem]

95. Get some rest. You're double posting.

Good night.

PS: Its ok to recognize Hillary's impressive global work, particularly if you truly believe Bernie can stand on his own record and merits.

[beam me up scottie]

96. It's good that you finally acknowledge her record of opposition to marriage equality.

[BlueWaveDem]

99. Never cast a vote.

But Bernie did vote on the 1994 crime bill. And guns.

[beam me up scottie]

100. Red herrings.

[merrily]

140. She never had to cast a vote. DOMA was already in effect.

[d_legendary1]

41. Whatever you say buddy!

"I believe marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman. I have had occasion in my life to defend marriage, to stand up for marriage, to believe in the hard work and challenge of marriage. So I take umbrage at anyone who might suggest that those of us who worry about amending the Constitution are less committed to the sanctity of marriage, or to the fundamental bedrock principle that it exists between a man and a woman, going back into the midst of history as one of the founding, foundational institutions of history and humanity and civilization, and that its primary, principal role during those millennia has been the raising and socializing of children for the society into which they are to become adults."

The full version is here.

"Every State reserves the right to refuse to recognize a marriage performed in another State if that marriage would violate the State's public policy. Indeed, the Supreme Court has long held that no State can be forced to recognize any marriage. That is what the case law has held. But just to make sure there were no loopholes in that case law, the Congress passed and the President signed the Defense of Marriage Act, known as DOMA...The DOMA law that was enacted already protects States from having to recognize same-sex
marriage licenses issued in other States."

[BlueWaveDem]

44. That wasn't during DOMA.

Why are you shifting goal posts. You were wrong and got called out on it so you post a video that still doesn't prove your original comment?

[beam me up scottie]

50. Hillary stated that she would have supported DOMA if she had been in the Senate in 1996:

Supports DOMA, which Bill Clinton signed

Hillary stated categorically that she opposed legalizing same-sex marriage. She provided a clear explanation that to this day is the most quoted statement enunciating her position. “Marriage has historic, religious, and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman. But I also believe that people in committed gay marriages, as they believe them to be, should be given rights under the law that recognize and respect their relationship.“

Hillary said she backed her husband’s signing of the Defense of Marriage Act. She said what everyone wanted to know: Yes, if she had been in the Senate in 1996, she would have supported the law.
Source: God and Hillary Clinton, by Paul Kengor, p.189-190 , Jul 18, 2007

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Civil_Rights.htm

[BlueWaveDem]

54. She never said that. You REALLY might want to check the source.

[beam me up scottie]

55. ontheissues.org is accurate, your denial is not a refutation of the facts.

Hillary Clinton attacks Terry Gross's Gay Marriage questions on NPR today (and fails..)

Clinton said in January 2000 that marriage does not include gay unions: "Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman." She said she would have voted for the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), but again said she supported partnership benefits for same-sex couples. Gay groups expressed disappointment in her position.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/12/1306530/-Hillary-Clinton-attacks-Terry-Gross-s-Gay-Marriage-questions-on-NPR-today-and-fails#

[840high]

59. ....x10+

[beam me up scottie]

60. Ay yi yi.

[BlueWaveDem]

67. No. She never said that.

The source is a rightwing nut job, and Dkos author fell for it.

[beam me up scottie]

69. ontheissues.org is an unbiased source and Terry Gross didn't fall for anything.

[BlueWaveDem]

71. Can you tell me where in the video

Hillary says she would have voted for DOMA?

[beam me up scottie]

72. Since she supported DOMA in 1996 why would she have voted against it?

[BlueWaveDem]

76. You realize your source is a rightwing nut job

This is your source:




And now you realize you were wrong so you are bringing up hypotheticals.

[beam me up scottie]

77. AGAIN I quoted Hillary's own words in 1996:

“My preference is that we do all we can to strengthen traditional marriages, and that the people engaged in parenting children be committed to one another and to the child. We also have to be realistic and know there are others who can do a good job, as well, of raising children,”

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/When-Hillary-Clinton-looked-to-boost-traditional-5559679.php

[BlueWaveDem]

80. You said she said she would vote for DOMA.

She didn't. And, she didn't.

[beam me up scottie]

81. She was against same sex marriage in 1996. Prove that quote is false.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Why would she have voted against DOMA when she spoke out in favour of it at the time?

Explain that one to me.

1996: “My preference is that we do all we can to strengthen traditional marriages, and that the people engaged in parenting children be committed to one another and to the child. We also have to be realistic and know there are others who can do a good job, as well, of raising children,” Mrs. Clinton told The San Francisco Examiner.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/04/16/hillary-clintons-changing-views-on-gay-marriage/

[BlueWaveDem]

73. You don't see how crazy this is getting?

You are now going after her for votes she didn't even make, just hypotheticals.

[beam me up scottie]

74. She supported DOMA in 1996. Period.

1996: “My preference is that we do all we can to strengthen traditional marriages, and that the people engaged in parenting children be committed to one another and to the child. We also have to be realistic and know there are others who can do a good job, as well, of raising children,” Mrs. Clinton told The San Francisco Examiner.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/04/16/hillary-clintons-changing-views-on-gay-marriage/

[BlueWaveDem]

82. And Bernie voted FOR 1994 crime bill.

Hillary didn't vote for DOMA or that crime bill.

[beam me up scottie]

83. .

[BlueWaveDem]

85. Not clicking on blind links.

Good night.

[beam me up scottie]

86. Not a blind link, look again, you'll LOVE it!

[BlueWaveDem]

89. You basically lost this debate to yourself.

All I did was present to you both sides of your own logic and you argued against both.

[beam me up scottie]

90. Hillary spokesman "Sen. Clinton backed the Defense of Marriage Act"

Clinton spokeman Phil Singer adds, "Sen. Clinton backed the Defense of Marriage Act because it enabled us to fend off right wing attacks like the Federal Marriage Amendment by keeping marriage as the purview of the states. She believes DOMA served an important purpose in that respect. Marriage should be left up to the states.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2007/06/hillary-repudiates-doma-001627#ixzz3nCC9rGyi

[BlueWaveDem]

93. Seems like it worked.

No Constitutional ban on ssm.

[beam me up scottie]

94. She didn't evolve until 2013. She was against it before she was for it.

[BlueWaveDem]

97. She cast no votes against ssm.

That's the reality.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Reality: her own words prove she was opposed to same sex marriage.

[BlueWaveDem]

102. I'm personally against abortion, but I wouldn't want it banned.

The world isn't so black and white. She never cast a vote against ssm, despite whatever her personal belief is.

[beam me up scottie]

104. She was against same sex marriage. Where's the grey area?

[BlueWaveDem]

107. Personal beliefs vs. Public votes

One can have personal beliefs yet understand it is their own personal beliefs.

Like Mario Cuomo, who was against abortion himself but understood why it shouldn't be banned. Gray area. Balance.

[beam me up scottie]

110. In what bizarro world would she have voted against DOMA when she backed it?

[BlueWaveDem]

132. A spokesman? No thanks. So according to your own logic

Bernie "fought for" the 1994 crime bill and "fought for" the gun industry, but Hillary "fought against" ssm even though she never cast a vote against it?

[beam me up scottie]

143. Red Herring, false analogy, another epic fail.

But keep digging, this is hillaryous.

[beam me up scottie]

75. She was against marriage equality in 2004.

[merrily]

141. Your accusing others of shifting goal posts is too ironic for words.

[d_legendary1]

144. My point is that HRC has not fought for gay rights

until it became an opportunity for her to become POTUS. Hell, even her husband back in 1999 called her a homophobe thanks to some recordings recently released.

Bubba: "You know I’ve had much more contact in my life with gay people than Hillary has...I think she’s really a little put off by some of this stuff...(On DOMA) I thought it was right at the time, and I’m not sure that it is."

She did nothing for gay rights other than some speeches and some photo ops. Why are you pretending that she's been championing for such rights when her history clearly show the opposite?

[olddots]

115. thousands would believe you

[merrily]

127. Because a speech in 2015 trumps everything before that? Even 43 years of advocacy when no one

in politics was doing that, even gay politicians. Poster, please.

[djean111]

119. Trying to paint Hillary as more pro-LGBT rights than Bernie is really ridiculous.

REALLY ridiculous. All any thinking person would have to see is Hillary saying marriage is a sacred bond between and man and a woman. Very recently. And I will never believe that her "evolving" is anything more than political expedience. Never.

[merrily]

130. +1

[merrily]

129. Thanks, Willy T for a great OP and to Bernie's supporters on this thread. As for some others,

your attempted smears of a brave advocate for LGBT equality for 43 fucking years reek of shameful bs.

[WillyT]

131. You Are Welcome... And Man... That Is One Tenacious New Hire...

[LondonReign2]

137. Isn't it, though?

[merrily]

146. If only quantity meant quality!

[beam me up scottie]

147. Kicking cuz now we're being told Bernie only cares about economic issues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

148. It looks like he skipped the "evolution" phase. Unlike another candidate.