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Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:32 AM

 

Can Bernie supporters comprehend why someone would prefer Hillary over Bernie?

So, we have a post here again attacking Hillary and condescendingly claiming that Hillary supporters can't fathom why some people prefer Bernie, and then we hear the burned out line, yet again, about Hillary being "Third Way" or "DLC" or whatever.

BUNK ! First, and I will say it yet again, Bernie Sanders would be disgusted with these anti-Hillary posts. He has refused to engage in these attacks, and his supporters should follow his example.

Next, just because someone is a Hillary supporter it doesn't mean he or she doesn't like Bernie. There is nowhere near the kind of nasty attacking of Bernie going from the Hillary side around here. Not close. It seems every other post is another Hillary attack. Shameful, and Sanders would be disgusted with it.

Hillary supporters overwhelmingly like Bernie and agree with him to a large extent on most issues. In fact, Bernie and Hillary have MANY points of agreement on policy. And we of course can understand why some people so strongly support Bernie. He is strong on the issues, very sincere, authentic, and passionate. Yes, WE GET IT. Again, we like and admire him too and agree to a large extent with him on the issues. But there are good REASONS why we support Hillary as a first choice.

So, to assist with the comprehension that has been called into question, here is why I support Hillary as a first choice over Bernie, much as I also like Bernie.

* She is brilliant and VERY well-qualified for the job.

* She is PROGRESSIVE and the "Third Way" label is hyperbole. She's not a purist, but she sure as hell is no "Republican".

* Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist and this nation is not ready to elect a self-described socialist. Period. Anyone who can't see this is dismissing our political history and our political culture today. I really like Bernie, his passion, and most of his policy ideas. But he is simply TOO far to the left to win the general American presidential election. The American general electorate simply will not accept him. The Republicans will scream "SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST" from the rooftops for months on end, day after day, and Sanders would be slaughtered. It is just that simple. If he aspired to the presidency, he should have NEVER labeled HIMSELF a "socialist." Just ain't gonna happen. This is why VERY FEW organizations and politicians are endorsing him and why virtually every political statistician gives him a VERY low likelihood of winning the primary let alone the general election. I really like him, but he just can't win. And win we MUST. Could you imagine "President Trump" or ANY of those clowns in that office?

*****NOW, if by some chance Sanders did win the nomination, of course I would strongly campaign for him and vote for him. But I just don't see it happening. So THIS is why I and so many of us in the party support Hillary as a first choice.

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Reply Can Bernie supporters comprehend why someone would prefer Hillary over Bernie? (Original post)
RBInMaine Oct 2015 OP
gwheezie Oct 2015 #1
Fred Sanders Oct 2015 #5
JackInGreen Oct 2015 #226
NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #8
RBInMaine Oct 2015 #27
NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #34
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #84
NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #90
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #94
NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #103
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #111
Gothmog Oct 2015 #203
Gothmog Oct 2015 #204
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #108
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #137
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #145
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #152
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #159
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #192
Live and Learn Oct 2015 #180
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #185
Live and Learn Oct 2015 #190
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #191
Live and Learn Oct 2015 #193
NorthCarolina Oct 2015 #207
Thor_MN Oct 2015 #208
Thespian2 Oct 2015 #98
Armstead Oct 2015 #58
Autumn Oct 2015 #71
iwillalwayswonderwhy Oct 2015 #61
liberalmike27 Oct 2015 #77
pangaia Oct 2015 #93
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #117
pangaia Oct 2015 #149
SusanCalvin Oct 2015 #157
cascadiance Oct 2015 #165
Bubzer Oct 2015 #166
cascadiance Oct 2015 #169
frylock Oct 2015 #183
Chan790 Oct 2015 #225
treestar Oct 2015 #97
Bohunk68 Oct 2015 #23
gwheezie Oct 2015 #37
Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #53
66 dmhlt Oct 2015 #73
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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:35 AM

1. I'm voting for HRC in my primary

I'm not an idiot.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:39 AM

5. Sanders supporters are not that...please reconsider your words. For shame.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 09:15 AM

226. Thanks Fred

'Preciate it

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:43 AM

8. So, anyone with an opinion different from your is "an idiot".

 

Gotcha...good to know.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:14 AM

27. Political wishful thinking, yes. Idiocy, no. See this link:

 

Can you make a strong argument to the contrary? Can you please explain HOW a self-described "socialist" could win? Please. Let's be real here. We have a long CAPITALIST and FREE MARKET tradition. We, on balance, want sufficient government but not TOO MUCH government. THAT is the American CULTURE. Sanders' self-proclaimed "socialist" status would give the R's and endless arsenal of attack. It would be relentless.

See the attached poll numbers, and this is BEFORE the MASSIVE Republican attack machine that would be launched against Sanders.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx


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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:20 AM

34. Well, just a week or so ago

 

Hillary camp was arguing that he can never compete because he wouldn't be able to raise the amount of money needed for an effective campaign, and then he DID. Now we're going to move the goal posts yet again? Sorry, but I simply don't buy into the spin that a Democratic Socialist can't win. Sounds like a Fox argument to me, and i don't buy into their spin either.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #34)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:22 AM

84. "Democratic Socialist"

Thank you for using the correct term.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:27 AM

90. Thanks.

 

I generally find that honesty is the best policy, especially in politics.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #90)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:32 AM

94. I like "FDR Democrat" as well.

Seriously, no matter what it's labeled, when people hear Bernie they like him.

That being said, I hope people here are taking the high road, as Bernie does. I don't really know if the allegation in the OP is correct, since I don't pay attention that closely.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #94)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:41 AM

103. I believe Bernie can also obtain some crossover vote from Republicans.

 

Something that is simply unobtainable by the Clinton campaign. Truth of the matter is, Bernie is by far the strongest candidate the Democrats have to offer in the general. Non partisan critical thinkers have likely already realized this.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #103)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:44 AM

111. Can't imagine an R voting for Hillary, true. nt

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #103)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:56 PM

203. The GOP does not support socialism

The republicans who are supporting Sanders are doing so to hurt the Clinton campaign

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #203)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:59 PM

204. Good OP-I am supporting Hillary Clinton because I simply do not think that Sanders is electable

I have asked repeatedly for an explanation as to how Sanders would compete in a general election contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate will likely spend another billion and I have yet to receive a satisfactory explanation. Some of the explanations involve magic thinking about the a magical Democratic blue was and others claim that money no longer matters in politics.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:43 AM

108. Is there a difference to the average voting person?

 

I would say that at present, there isn't. Unless the difference is made clear to the average person that shows up to vote, the only operative word is the second one. If Sanders does not want to be tarred and feathered by the GOP as a "Socialist", he is going to need to make the distinction known by methods more effective that just saying "I'm a DEMOCRATIC Socialist".



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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #108)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:13 AM

137. He is. It's called "stating his positions."

And they're starting to be more widely heard.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #137)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:22 AM

145. You are missing the point.

 

Unless he can make the public understand the difference between "Socialist" and "Democratic Socialist", he will be branded by the GOP, if he gets the nomination, as a "Socialist".

It totally ineffective to do what you said in the post I replied to first. Placing the burden on others to learn the difference does not inform. To the average person, all they hear is "Socialist".

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #145)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:34 AM

152. You think the Sanders campaign is

"Placing the burden on others to learn"?

Ooooookaaaaaay.....

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #152)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:50 AM

159. No, you placed the burden on others to find out what Democratic Socialist means.

 

You requested that the proper term "Democratic Socialist" be used. You were polite about it, but if that is all that is being done, it doesn't matter to the average person, he will be a "Socialist".

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #159)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:26 PM

192. Oh, you mean me personally.

I plead guilty in this case, but I thought you meant the official campaign.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #108)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:51 PM

180. I can answer that since I have been out on the streets supporting Bernie.

A relatively few people even ask about him being a socialist. Of those, the majority are very happy with him once you explain his views.

I have had many conservatives express how much they like Bernie. It all comes down to his authenticity, honesty and integrity, traits hard to find in most politicians.

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #180)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:02 PM

185. Thank you for your efforts.

 

Sanders has yet to be challenged by the GOP. If he gets the nomination, that will be when the difference between being a Socialist and a Democratic Socialist will become important. If the response is to simply state "I'm a Democratic Socialist", the average person will only hear "I'm a Socialist".

Hell, most conservatives already believe that Democrats are Socialists. All "I'm a Democratic Socialist" accomplishes is confirming their beliefs.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #185)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:10 PM

190. Bernie is quite adept at explaining the difference himself.

Once the media is forced to give him exposure, I don't think it will be a problem at all.

The people that will continue to refer to him as a socialist will be the people that were never going to vote for him anyway, similar to those that continue to call Obama a Muslim.

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #190)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:17 PM

191. My point is that he needs to.

 

I'd like to believe that there won't be any problem at all, but I must not have as much faith as you.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #191)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:28 PM

193. He is doing his best (quite well, actually) in person and through social media.

The media blackout will not be able to continue for long with the masses he is attracting.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #185)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:12 PM

207. I believe you ascribe far to much dislike for the term "socialist" in today's society.

 

Bernie has already done a great job of diffusing this as an issue simply by owning it. The media will of course push it, but fewer and fewer will hear their plea or buy their snake-oil.

This isn't the 1990's anymore.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #207)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:33 PM

208. I believe you conflate my opinions with the average person's.

 

I have no problems with Sanders's positions or his statement that he is a Democratic Socialist.

I, however, don't elect the President by myself. So the votes of the everyone else do come into play. And my opinion is, if Sanders gets the nomination, the media will be deluged with "Socialist agenda", red scare rhetoric.

So we are at an impasse, you have your beliefs that people have changed, I have my beliefs that they haven't.

If Sanders is nominated, I hope you are right.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #34)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:37 AM

98. Thanks

Anyone still saying that BERNIE can't possibly win is distracted by their own willingness to support a member in good standing of the 1%...by the 1%...for the 1%...screw the 99%...

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:47 AM

58. Sanders is not looking to dismantle capitalism. He's basically a staunch libeal/progressive

 

He does believe in "radical" concepts like regulation, progressive taxation, strengthening public services and making higher education and vocation affordable, treating veterans, tjings like that. Basically left-of-center mainstream liberalism -- what the Democratic Party claims to stand for.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #58)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:06 AM

71. I never imagined I would live to see those basic principles become radical.

As human beings we should be happy to see that those things are done, no questions asked. And yet we have democrats that consider them unnecessary or unattainable.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:51 AM

61. Because maybe, just maybe, it is time to make a real change

I don't believe he can't possibly win. We may have reached a tipping point where we as a country are ready. I don't think business as usual is working out for most people. The status quo is hurting too many. When I was 18, I got a job and could afford an apartment. My adult children struggle. Things are much worse for them then they were for me. They've never in seen the point in voting, cause no matter who gets elected, it never makes any real difference in their struggles.

I just happen to think I'm not alone in my thinking. If I'm wrong, and Hillary gets the nomination, I will sigh, figure we as a country are just not ready to catch up with the rest of the world, and vote for her.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:15 AM

77. Could you

Sound more like a Republican. "Long standing free market tradition," and "too much government." Wow. Is this the DU?

I'll take Sanders. "Progressive?" What is that? Progress on what? Toward the right, ever toward the right, compromises between center-right, and far right, end up between the two.

We need a "liberal," and we need MORE government, if less government brings us this Oligarchy.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:29 AM

93. I don't know where to begin with this reply and your OP.

"Self-described socialist"
- OK. You REALLY need to stop using this phrase, you know? It really is getting old. This is what one hears from the money grubbing, empty talking heads.
" We have a long CAPITALIST and FREE MARKET tradition. "
-- humm You need to do a little research.

"See the attached poll numbers,..."
No.

"Hillary supporters overwhelmingly like Bernie and agree with him to a large extent on most issues..."
Well, of course they do.

" He is strong on the issues, very sincere, authentic, and passionate. "
Yup. Check that.

"The Republicans will scream "SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST" ...."
And.. what? Are you afraid of them?

" If he aspired to the presidency, he should have NEVER labeled HIMSELF a "socialist."
You see, he did NOT label himself something. THAT is the whole point!

"NOW, if by some chance Sanders did win the nomination, of course I would strongly campaign for him and vote for him..."
So, you let us do all the dirty work, and then jump on the train as it rushes by. .. Thanks for the help.

My own thought.... In my view, Clinton WANTS to be president. Sanders realizes somebody has to try to fix things.

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Response to pangaia (Reply #93)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:50 AM

117. "Sanders realizes somebody has to try to fix things."

Yep.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #117)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:28 AM

149. Clara-Jumi soon. :>))))

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Response to pangaia (Reply #149)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:44 AM

157. You lucky duck!

Please keep me posted on any US concerts.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:08 PM

165. With the corporatist propaganda from the likes of RW talk radio and both "bought" parties...

 

... it seems like we tend to forget great words from those who spoke strongly on these topics in many of our life times even.



I believe that Americans are waiting for the opportunity to be liberated from the nomenclature and labeling based on these words to avoid changes to their oligarchic system and put in place some real change now.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:09 PM

166. This poll was brought up a while ago and debunked. It only includes data from those who're 56+.

It's far from being a representative poll. Younger generations are significantly more open to Democratic Socialism.

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #166)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:19 PM

169. I wonder if they also threw the term in "communist" how that would be looked at in polling too...

 

I would suspect that it would be even worse than "socialist". And yet, it was "communist" money from dictator Joseph Stalin that helped create the Koch Brothers empire from Fred Koch's relationship with Joseph Stalin in earlier days that funds most Repubilcans' campaigns, and also has supported the DLC wing of the Democratic Party too, through the Koch Brothers' early participation in helping create the DLC.

Why isn't that brought up? Because it isn't constructive dealing with issues, and is similarly calling people names, which isn't useful in trying to break down the ISSUES of what people want dealt with by who they are voting in to office.

If communist as a label were put in this poll, it would show even more extreme reaction, but the pollmeister's goals are clear and that is to demonize the label of "socialism" to help strategically win out against people that are ultimately working for most Americans' welfare and not just those of the wealthy elite.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:54 PM

183. You know jack shit about getting Democrats elected.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #27)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 09:09 AM

225. Because every "He's not electable and he's about to show why; just watch." hurdle...

 

that people (Clinton supporters mostly) have come up with...he's overcome and usually resoundingly.

He'll never be a major factor because he's a Socialist. Then he was.
He'll never win a single state because he's a Socialist. Then he was was kicking Hillary's ass in both IA and NH.
He'll never be able to even come close to matching Hillary's capacity fundraising because he's a Socialist. Then he did.

There are more, I just think the point has been made.

All of this to deflect from the real concern of Clintonites...that you can't win in the GE with a candidate that most people in America have made up their mind on and a majority of Americans don't like her. (Get this...even now, all these months into the campaign...more Americans hate Hillary Clinton than have heard of Bernie Sanders.) People may not find voting for a Socialist appealing...but people generally find voting for someone they absolutely hate to a nearly-bottomless degree more unappealing.

The Gallup poll misses a big thing by over-relying on the value of labels...and it's a huge thing...when I lay out Sanders platform for social conservatives and evangelicals and libertarians...they say "Oh. Well...if he's a Socialist, then I guess I was wrong because I guess I'm a Socialist too. That all sounds a lot better to me than anything else anybody else is saying." That's the secret to why Hillary is having such problems...what he's running on is just a lot more appealing than any option being put forth by the establishment Democratic party. (or the establishment Republican party or the tea-party or the anti-establishment GOP like Donald Trump) A lot of those people that have for a long time have refused to vote Democratic are discovering that their problem isn't with progressive values...it's with establishment Democrats. If you can't win with Sanders, you probably can't win with anybody...and especially the widely-reviled Hillary Clinton.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:36 AM

97. that's what you are going to take from that?

Enjoy being offended.

I'm sure no BS people ever called anyone a Turd Wayer or the like.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:09 AM

23. It would seem that you did not read the entire post.

What you just did, is exactly what the post was all about.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:23 AM

37. Wow did you guys miss the point

It's been implied over and over that Hillary supporters are weak minded dupes or Republicans, I pointed out I'm not an idiot and I'm voting for her. Or I'm voting for Hillary, I'm not an idiot. Did you think I was calling YOU an idiot.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #37)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:39 AM

53. Yes you were nt

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #53)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:10 AM

73. Reading comprehension is clearly NOT your strong suit

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Response to 66 dmhlt (Reply #73)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:16 AM

79. Sure

 

She said she was not and idiot and was voting for Hillary, good for her. On the other side, she said anyone that votes for any other candidate IS and idiot. I can and do understand what she posted.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #79)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:21 AM

83. NO - you clearly can NOT! But I'll help you out:

This is the ENTIRETY of her post:

I'm voting for HRC in my primary

I'm not an idiot.


She did NOT say - as you mendaciously claim:
"... she said anyone that votes for any other candidate IS and idiot."

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Response to 66 dmhlt (Reply #83)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:25 AM

88. Oh come on.

Even I can clearly see the implication.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #88)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:12 PM

215. There was no "implication" at all. But since you claim ...

To be so great at mind reading, read mine!

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Response to 66 dmhlt (Reply #215)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:14 PM

216. Okey dokey. And you read mine.

I don't claim to be great at mind reading. Just reading. It's one of the ways we humans communicate.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #216)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 10:08 AM

229. And s/he made NO claim (overt or implied) that non-HRC supporters are idiots ...

"Just reading. It's one of the ways we humans communicate."

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Response to 66 dmhlt (Reply #229)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 05:23 PM

234. Well, I've extracted all the amusement I care to from this exchange. nt

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #37)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:38 AM

99. Yes they jumped on that chance to be offended

Somehow being the victim of something offensive is so valuable to some, they'd rather wring some offense out of your post than discuss BS and his chances of losing.

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Response to treestar (Reply #99)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:56 AM

122. Well, I guess it was too good a chance to pass up...! But seriously,

Anyone able to read can see the implication.

I'm not offended, just amused. Especially by the assertions that the post didn't imply (yeah, "imply" what it implied.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #122)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:35 AM

153. " Especially by the assertions that the post didn't imply (yeah, "imply") what it implied."

 

Yea, there is a lot of that going around DU.

Take the guy in this thread who is just so offended by that post.... Same guy who couldn't help but reply throughout his push poll OP what cowards Hillary supporters are.

I wish I could be amused by that shit, but I guess I'm just too old for that anymore.





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Response to JTFrog (Reply #153)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:42 AM

156. I don't generally remember posters.

I remember exactly two for negative reasons and a handful for positive. So interpersonal stuff like that goes right over my head. I'll never be a politician....!

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Response to treestar (Reply #99)


Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:38 AM

51. Wow that's civil

 

calling people here that support another candidate idiots. Very nice of you, not!

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:42 AM

104. I found it interesting that Bernie's appearance could be a factor to some.

Can a person's appearance actually affect their ability to get elected? I remember when Nixon and Kennedy appeared on TV for their debate. Nixon looked awful compared to the young handsome war hero Kennedy. Women flocked to Kennedy's side according to the news reports following the debates. Maybe this is not as a big a factor as it was once thought to be or then again maybe it still is. It has been shown that physical appearance can be a huge factor in the ability to succeed in business. Height is a major factor in that the taller person, in the case of men, are perceived as being more competent leaders. It is an unfortunate truth.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:40 PM

236. I feel the same way!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:35 AM

2. Great post. I agree with this completely.

I hope Bernie supporters read this, to understand where Hillary supporters are coming from. It would reduce some of the acrimony. We're all on the same side, we have the same goals, we just disagree about the best strategy and the best candidate for getting us there.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:51 AM

63. Settling is not a strategy

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Response to DanTex (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 08:16 AM

222. And I hope Hillary supporters read up on Third Way and what its done to the Democratic Party.

For example, this is a good article~

....Why are Democrats affiliated with a group which works so strenuously to gut Democratic programs?....

This is not an "inside baseball" story about politics. It's a battle for party control whose outcome could affect every household in the country. If this quarrel is to be remembered -- and it's incumbent upon genuine progressives to make sure that it is -- it should be remembered as an attempt by a the corporate class to retain control of the Democratic Party and limit the leftmost limits of political and economic debate.

To learn more & end being low-information, please read more here~
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/the-democrats-third-way-q_b_4410394.html


Also read~
http://bluemassgroup.com/2013/12/hillary-clinton-is-a-third-way-adherent/

And especially~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrats

*****************

Facts are NOT "burned out lines". And if we want to turn things around in this country, we HAVE to rid the party of the corporate third way who have taken it over.

This is what Hillary supporters need to really down load.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:36 AM

3. Why would you strongly campaign for Sanders in the general if he can't possibly win?

 

Seems pointless.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:46 AM

10. Frankly

 

I believe the percentage of Hillary supporters that would support a Bernie Sanders in the General is far, far smaller than the percentage of Bernie supporters that would ultimately support Hillary in the general. Conservatives and 'centrists' simply fear the Democratic "SOCIALIST". Claims that they will are just lip service because they are pretty confident their machine will deal Bernie out of the equation.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:00 AM

17. I believe ALL HRC supporters would back Bernie in the general to fight what

another GOP president would do with our country. He'd pick up all the left-leaning independents too, who'd be afraid of being dragged further backwards along a destructive course by a deeply conservative administration.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:10 AM

24. Comments

 

like this one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=643414

from hillary supporters leads me to believe otherwise. When one uses GOP type talking points in their arguments, I don't really see that mindset ever supporting to a Democratic Socialist point of view for any reason.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:20 AM

32. I think you're making way too much of a little toss-in. We all tend to assume

others think like we do because that's what we understand, but that's not the case. Those who are super-passionate about Bernie and seem to have a corollary need to be very hostile toward his opponent should not assume that those who support HRC must thus be very hostile toward her opponent. That's just not the case.

In fact, that's why so many of us keep saying we like a lot of Bernie's positions and would support him if he won the primary. You can believe it. It's true.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:25 AM

41. That post pretty much validates my thinking that many Clinton supporters

 

are in reality republicans. Not most of them, probably, but many. If you look carefully at where Sanders and Clinton differ on the issues, it isn't difficult to discern that many Clintonites want the insurance companies between you and your doctor. They want TPP. They want education to be a commodity instead of a right. And they want endless war. So in response to the question in the op, my answer would be, "not really".

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:33 AM

46. My sentiments exactly.

 

Well stated, great post. Thanks.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:28 AM

91. +1

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:28 AM

92. If not "want," exactly

At least don't see them as the major evils they are.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #92)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:43 AM

109. right. They are willing to accept all of those in exchange for

 

abortion rights. I'm pretty sure she won't flip flop on that one. But I also don't think the owning class will allow the republicans to overturn roe v wade and risk mobilizing the pro choice masses.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #109)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:47 AM

115. Even while Roe v Wade becomes moot.

At least for people without money. But people with money have always been able to get abortions. Or anything else they wanted, for that matter.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #109)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:18 AM

142. Except with the insidious RWers, you keep abortion rights but . . . end up

with no hospitals or clinics where abortions are performed. That effectively ends abortions except for the rich, who can swan off to Mexico or Canada. We end up with all these "rights" but no way to actually access them. Big whoop.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:40 PM

198. No, they disagree about the logistics

The ACA is better than nothing. We want single payer, but are glad we got the ACA at least.

They don't think the TPP is some huge disaster. Maybe it will be good for the economy. Can you not debate on that issue instead of making it about the posters' alleged intent?

No they do not want endless war. There is no justification for saying Hillary supports that. They don't agree with you that Hillary supports that.

It's as logical as saying the BS supporters want the Republicans to win. Maybe they are the Republicans. This is so useless.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:54 PM

238. And apparently many BS supporters wear tin foil hats...

We know they aren't Democrats because their candidate is not a Democrat and is running against one.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:45 AM

113. exactly, people would try even against the odds

it's ridiculous to think we would have to give up because we argued Hillary was more electable before the nomination. Like our help would not be needed against Republicans. Too funny. And they could turn that about on themselves, who have declared many times Hillary could not win the general.

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Response to treestar (Reply #113)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:46 PM

179. Umhm. Except odds for the 2016 White House are in our favor. It's ours to hold.

As for the GOP, in primary seasons they attack whichever candidate they most DON'T want to face in the general, hoping for a weaker opponent. That's HRC as of right now, of course.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:42 PM

237. I don't have to. I live in a blue state so I can just skip the top line! Nt

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:43 AM

57. Yep, their confidences is in the machine.

And I suppose they have a point...money is power and can pull the strings to control things...but people are wising up to the game and that spells trouble for them.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:35 AM

95. Yeah, but

"Confidence in the machine" to do *what*? I have confidence in it to Hoover yet more money to the top, for one thing.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #95)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:43 AM

110. Well perhaps some of them will be recipients of that suction.

So they love the machine.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:48 AM

11. GLAD you asked, as I knew someone would. HERE is why I would still campaign BIGTIME for Sanders:

 

1) I am loyal to the party and its ideals and would NEVER go down without a fight, first and foremost. He would be our nominee, and I would still pull out all stops. The CAUSE is bigger than ME, win or lose. It's a matter of principle.

2) Even though he would most likely lose in the end, he would still draw big crowds and it would be one hell of a FUN fight. Gloves right off and FUN to participate in. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !! Oh yeah, I'd be right in the thick of it win or lose. I will give this to Bernie, he IS a FIGHTER and I LOVE that!

3) Next, he WOULD still excite the left wing BASE and would draw them out which would help all our candidates up and down the ticket. Again, there is a bigger picture.

So, thanks again, and these are why I would still get right into it HARD with Bernie at the top of the ticket. It would still be FUN AS HELL and I sure as hell wouldn't be on the sidelines.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:49 AM

60. Let's turn it around. Here is why I will support Hillary in the general, if she is the nominee.

I'm supporting Bernie. Here is roughly what I wrote a few days ago to a fellow Berniac who said she or he would go third party, probably Green, if Bernie is not the nominee:

1) Hillary is not just a lesser evil. She is a fighter who will oppose Republican actions to take from the poor and give to the rich, and will do what she can to advance many of the issues we are fighting for. And she has plenty of experience with Republican dirty tricks and rule-or-ruin opposition -- she won't be fooled by that.

2) You should vote for her even if you live in a safe blue state. A big margin means "political capital" with which she will be all the more able to work effectively for our shared goals. We also need to look down-ticket and give support to Congressional and State candidates who will fight for our goals -- without a wholehearted support of the top of the ticket, this is more difficult. The "message" sent by a third-party vote will not move the Democratic Party to the left -- look how that worked in 2000! Even if the Supremes had not illegally stolen the election, there is no sign that the Green insurgency moved the party left in any way.

3) Just because Bernie doesn't win the nomination doesn't mean that the political revolution is over and ends in defeat. Quite the contrary -- it means we have more battles to fight before we win. Those battles will be fought within the Democratic party. Leaving it would be defeat.

4) Hillary is responsive to changes in popular sentiment, as witness her "evolution" on LGBT rights. This is often held against her, but I submit that it is a reason to support her if she is the candidate, especially for those of us who now support Bernie. A massive movement of Bernie supporters to support her candidacy would leave her with two messages:First, that this is a group that can give her victory, and second, that our opinions are increasingly widely held. That will move her in our direction. A desertion of the party in the case of Hillary's nomination would have the opposite effect: it would encourage her to look for her winning margin in the center. You may call that hypocrisy, but I call it politics.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:59 AM

69. Thanks. That makes sense.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:23 AM

85. "He Can't Win,"

And "He'd lose in the end," are both media fed memes, designed to get you to give up, and vote the way the millionaire talking heads want you to vote.

I see Hillary voters in two ways. One, they're people who believe in the social issues, gays, freedom of religion, a little gun control, and immigration. But they're doing pretty well financially, at least as of now. They've got a job, it likely has nothing to do with blue-collar manufacturing, or perhaps the need of a job in that field, and isn't affected by the wage deflation of exporting that whole sector. You know, the well-off Democrat.

Sanders voters are the ones who've had their jobs exported, who've suffered from a depressed minimum, the bottom falling out, the part time jobs, and the ever spiraling costs of living in this life. We want a real Democrat, we want a "liberal" not a "progressive." Progressive is such a non-directional word. Bill Clinton "progressed" away from welfare, Democrats seem willing to "progress" away from Social Security, raising the age high enough, I'll assume, so more and more will pay their tax dollars in, but die before they ever get it.

The other way they support her is "she's a woman, and it's time for a woman." Apparently it doesn't matter whether she's a Katrina Vanderhoovel, or a Margaret Thatcher type.

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Response to liberalmike27 (Reply #85)

Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:42 PM

239. Dividing the left mentally up into "us" and "them" may satisfy something inside you,

but your notions are wrong. Extremism and black-and-white views of the world do not correlate with economic wellbeing but are mainly personality driven at all economic levels. Please note also that arguing that Bernie mainly appeals to those who are not doing well is not only mistaken but hardly works to his benefit.

Populist resentment may finally energize long-disengaged citizens into in an angry "where's MINE?" but that's hardly a PRINCIPLED movement. I'm a Democrat who has ALWAYS supported Bernie's principles. Nothing to do with my own income.

In any case, a divisive attitude within our own camp is destructive of what Bernie voters say they want to accomplish. Remember why we COUNT votes? The sensible, balanced voters who answered just above this not only have one foot on the ground, but both, and are worth reading thoughtfully.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:39 AM

100. Huh? In the unlikely event he wins as Democratic nominee

you don't want or need any help from fellow Democrats who supported another candidate?

Now you're just being like some exclusive club - that doesn't win elections.

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Response to treestar (Reply #100)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:42 AM

107. I think you misunderstood me.

 

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Response to Vattel (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:44 AM

112. Letting the GOP win would be pointless.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #112)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:54 AM

120. RBI said that Sanders couldn't possibly win the GE but that he or she would campaign on his behalf

 

if he got the democratic nomination. I asked RBI why he or she would take the time to campaign for a candidate that can't win. RBI gave a very good answer.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #120)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:58 AM

125. One would do so because giving up is not an option in the General.

I'm not sure why that would be confusing to some one posting on a political forum.

If that was the only path to keeping a Republican nut job out of the White House, a logical person would take it.

See .. my question is why would a Sanders supporter stay home if Hillary ends up being the nominee. They claim to be the best liberals, focused on helping those in need. But they'd sit back and let the GOP win without putting up a fight to the end?

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #125)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:03 AM

129. if sanders can't win, and he is the democratic nominee,

 

then there is no path to keeping a Republican out of the Whitehouse.

edited to add: I am not saying that Sanders can't win. That was RBI's claim.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #129)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:06 AM

131. You are explaining why you would give up.

You can believe something can't be done, and yet still try to do it.

Or, I guess we could be like some of Bernie's supporters, and take our ball and go home if things don't go our way.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #131)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:15 AM

141. After reading RBI's response, I would keep fighting even if I knew the Repub would win.

 

Again, RBI said that he or she would campaign for Bernie even while thinking that he can't possibly win. I asked why? RBI gave several very reasonable reasons why in response to my question.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #141)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:18 AM

143. Yes, you keep fighting anyway.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #143)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:44 PM

177. cool. we agree

 

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Response to Vattel (Reply #177)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:01 PM

200. The goal is to put as many dems in office as we can.

Even if they are not your favorite dem.

And we do not stop fighting.

Glad we agree.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:37 AM

4. You should put this paragraph you wrote in a frame:

" In fact, Bernie and Hillary have MANY points of agreement on policy. And we of course can understand why people mainly on the left wing so strongly support Bernie. He is strong on the issues, very sincere, authentic, and passionate. Yes, WE GET IT. Again, we like and admire him too and agree to a large extent with him on the issues. But there are REASONS why we support Hillary as a first choice."

The fact that Clinton is a first choice for most Democrats is a choice arrived at with zero malice directed at the second choice.

Who would Sanders current primary voters prefer as their second choice, and why?


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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:54 AM

15. Yes.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #15)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:15 AM

28. GREAT POINT. I hope people respond.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #28)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:24 AM

87. Hey, not all posts belong in frames. :)

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:41 AM

6. She denies being a progressive. Are you saying she's lying?

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:02 AM

18. You're wrong. In fact in the '08 debates she described herself as a "Modern Progressive."

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:23 AM

36. What's a "modern progressive"?

 

A right of center conservative who wants to feel better about themselves so they claim to be a "modern progressive"?

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:25 AM

40. "I've been accused of being a moderate. I plead guilty." -HRC

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:39 AM

52. Apparently "centrist" is the new "Modern Progressive",

 

and the "New Dem", and the "Neoliberal".

Out with the old and in with the "Neo"!

They have the equivalent meaning of "Old Conservative", "Old GOP", but sound way hipper.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #52)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:58 AM

68. Yep. Neauseating.

 

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #52)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:13 AM

76. ANOTHER thing us Bernie Supporters are horrible at!

 

Brand Awareness! How will we consume Hillary's Political product if we can't keep the branding straight!

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Response to MoveIt (Reply #76)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:15 AM

78. True, I don't really keep up with "Branding" because it changes so frequently,

 

who can keep up? I'm old fashioned I guess because I prefer honesty over Brand du Jour.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:08 AM

133. "Moderate" is not a dirty word.

I reside in a democratic union stronghold in NE Ohio, and many, many, of the voters here identify with the term. A lot of them despise Clinton as well, but not because she's not liberal enough. Believe it or not, they fall for media hype and see her as too liberal for their likes. They would laugh at the notion that she's on the political right.

The republicans are not likely to put up one of the far right whacks that currently dominate in the polls. Just like in every past primary since WWII, they will filter down to the most moderate candidate on the ballot. I look for John Kasich or Jeb Bush to survive the final cut, relatively common sense moderates both. The far right will howl that "the fix was in" as usual, then show up en masse to cast their vote... again, as usual.

She's very polarizing, so I'm not optimistic about how Ms Clinton will do against either, but I know that if the great middle who elect our presidents are faced with a choice between a perceived moderate republican and a far left candidate, they'll vote for the one who will do no harm and maintain the status quo.

No one will ever use the slogan "Let's Kick The Can Down The Road", but that position is what attracts the 60% in the middle aren't as enthusiastic about their party affiliation as liberals and Tea Party voters. People naturally tend to fear radical change.

I agree with nearly all of Bernie's position on issues, but that "Socialist" handle, whether warranted or not, is poison to American politics. As we know, most foolishly relate it to Communism.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #133)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:07 PM

189. Correction

 

was "poison to American politics"

Bernie owned it, and has obviously diffused it. If rally crowds and fundraising totals far exceeding what the beltway "experts" predicted are not a clue, then I don't know what else would suffice.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #189)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:49 PM

214. I'm not hearing the same enthusiasm you are.

Outside the bubble of DU people democrats I talk to universally consider Sanders a far left candidate. True, I'm not talking to college students in New England, but blue collar working class factory laborers. You could legitimately say that if they knew Bernie, they'd love Bernie, but all they hear is "socialist".

It'd be nice to think Bernie gave a few speeches and single handed changed the political complexion of the entire country overnight, but I think you overestimate his leverage. While he's doing well polling his backyard, it's yet to be seen how he'll do in the manufacturing MidWest, the South, flyover states, and the mining states in the West. I'm not as optimistic as you, but I appreciate your idealistic elan.

While I can't speak for the rest, he's not doing well here in NE Ohio where we traditionally vote two to one for democrats, and frankly, neither is Hillary.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #214)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 09:47 AM

227. ...

 

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #133)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:25 PM

217. Yeah, "moderate" is a dirty word, misinformed voters notwithstanding.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #217)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 02:39 AM

219. I'm not sure how to take that

I've always had a great deal of respect for you from the times in the photo group and enjoy your sense of compassion. I hope your enthusiasm for Sanders isn't causing you to become one who lashes out at those who aren't as liberal as yourself by labeling them ignorant.

The greatest number of voters in the country consider themselves somewhere near moderate, certainly most of those democrats I personally know. If Sanders people choose to alienate them with snide "smarter than thou" comments, it won't serve well for his chances in a national contest.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #219)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 06:02 AM

221. Hey, if Ohio voters think Hillary is "too liberal" then they're misinformed as ...

 

... she's not liberal at all. Voters who consider themselves "moderate" may in fact be quite liberal as numerous studies have shown, to wit ... http://billmoyers.com/2015/06/01/mainstream-bernie-sanders/



Finally, I did not call anyone ignorant so please don't put words in my mouth.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #221)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 10:51 AM

230. You didn't refer to me (et al) as "ignorant" for not sharing your view

You used the hair splitting word "misinformed". I guess that comes off as much less smug and condescending.

Good luck with that strategy to win people over to Bernie though. I stopped posting on DU a couple months ago because of the vile nature of Bernie supporter's comments in general, but this isn't the first time I've taken a hiatus from high handed liberal scorn here. The other time was during Kucinich's short time in the limelight in '08 when ideologues here felt they were enlightening us ignorant masses about how a Dept of Peace made Dennis a sure thing.

I believe I just began posting again a bit too soon this time. I'll waste no more of your time by responding.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #230)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 11:09 AM

232. "I'll waste no more of your time by responding." Bwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:16 AM

80. And there you have it. By using the qualifier of "Modern" she was stating she was not

a Progressive by the standard meaning of the word. It's an attempt to redefine the word to mean centrist/right-of-center and NOT progressive.

And yes, I understand why those who support Hillary do so: they prefer right-of-center economic policies along with their moderately progressive social policies. Obama himself admitted that his economic policies are mainstream 1980's Republican and Hillary is to the right of Obama. So if you thought economically Bob Dole and his ilk were correct if not a little too far to the left then you'll gravitate towards Hillary.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:15 AM

139. She's "evolved" on that too to now claim moderate centrist.



This is your candidate this year.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:43 AM

7. "Hillary supporters overwhelmingly like Bernie"

Count me as one of them. I have admired and respected him for years.

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Response to oasis (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:51 AM

62. Same here. He has a lot of admirers in the Hillary camp.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:43 AM

9. i can honestly look at all the candidates

on both sides, and understand why someone, somewhere, supports them. i think some have to be crazy to support jeb! or cruz or rubio, but they have their reasons. we all do.

as for the repubs screaming socialist, i am not concerned. they screamed it on 08 about a black guy with a funny name who many thought was a kenyan muslim and he did ok. besides, take away the word socialist and most people are actually on board with bernie's views.

besides, if you think the repubs don't have plenty to scream about hillary, you might be disappointed if she wins the nom, cuz they have plenty of material.

but to get back to the topic sentence, yes i can understand why someone would prefer hillary to bernie. there could be a number of reasons, as with any candidate. i do find it hard though, for people who consider themselves to be serious progressive to support a prowar, corporate friendly, tpp and free trade friendly candidate who is likely to do almost as much for the 1% as a republican. and no, not bashing. these are policy issues and good ones to be concerned about.

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Response to restorefreedom (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:06 AM

19. Being black is NOTHING like being a self-described "socialist" in our political culture.

 

Not 100% completely, but we have now pretty much gotten beyond racial, gender, and religious affiliation factors in our presidential politics with Catholic Kennedy, Black Obama, and MANY women who have run for the presidency and at least two as VEEP on the major party tickets (Ferarro and Palin). But a poltical "socialist"? Nowhere near yet. Ain't gonna happen in '16. See this:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:54 AM

65. many people are on board with democratic socialist ideas

but some people like to shout socialist! like they used to shout commie! but the word has lost its punch. and most people under 40 couldn't care less.

polls say a lot of things, or try to

this socialist meme is played. hasn't stopped bernie from serving in public office for 40 years, hasn't stopped him from being the, in short order, frontrunner for the dem nom, and it won't stop him from winning the presidency

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Response to restorefreedom (Reply #65)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:11 AM

74. +1

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:53 PM

211. So do you hate Social Security like you think everyone hates "socialist" the way you do?

 

Because Social Security IS a socialist part of our government, whether you like it or not! And I think a majority of Americans would NOT vote for someone who hates social security!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:50 AM

12. Bunk is right.

 

BUNK ! First, and I will say it yet again, Bernie Sanders would be disgusted with these anti-Hillary posts. He has refused to engage in these attacks, and his supporters should follow his example.


This is unmitigated bullshit.

Pointing out flaws, issues, and disagreeing with Clinton, are NOT anti-Hillary posts.

Sanders will not use 'negative campaigning' but he will still call her shit out and does so regularly.

Clinton has had ZERO problems with negative campaigning from passive aggressive Tweets to attack dog surrogates to dark SuperPAC's lying and smearing.

I am so fucking sick of the sanctimonious horse shit like this post is.

1) Clinton may be intelligent and yet she has shown numerous times that she does not think about the consequences of her actions. That makes her unqualified for the job of president.

2) No, Clinton is not a progressive. She is Third Way. She was a prominent member of the damned DLC! Why are the facts of history so lost on y'all! It is not a 'slur'. It is an actual descriptor of her politics. She is a neoliberal on economic issues. She is a hawk in foreign policy choices.

3) Sanders is not too far left. Poll after poll show that the mainstream and majority of Americans want what he is describing. If you don't want a President Trump, don't choose Clinton. The GOP wants to run against her because they know they can beat her. They can't beat Sanders.

You are right, Sanders may not win the nomination. Gods know the establishment is doing every fucking thing it can to stop him and his political revolution. It is one thing to market one like they did with Obama. It is quite another to actually have a real one.

I don't give a shit if you support Clinton. If I think it is a wrong choice, so what. I am not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me otherwise.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:08 AM

20. MANY of the attacks have been NASTY, mean, and rotten. And it's endless. Bernie would be disgusted.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #20)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:16 AM

29. Have you checked out the Hillary Supporters website -

I mean before they scrubbed it and added their silly little thread "say something nice about Bernie supporters".

Anyone participating in that site should be ashamed of themselves and have no business saying anything about the good folks supporting Bernie.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #20)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:42 AM

55. It is a candidate. It isn't your best friend.

 

They are not mean just because you and her other supporters don't like them.

They are not nasty just because you and her other supporters don't like them.

They are not rotten just because you and her other supporters don't like them.

Paging Beam Me Up Scottie! I need your post with the links by Clinton supporters which were mean, nasty and downright rotten (anti-Semitism, etc.). Thanks.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #20)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:02 PM

184. These posts are always bereft of examples..

link to some of those NASTY, mean, and rotten attacks kplzthx?

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Response to TM99 (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:35 AM

49. Oh, please--I think Sanders would disavow a large percentage of the posts being made in

his name. That's not "unmitigated bullshit" at all, it's the truth.

I think your little laundry list would be one of the first posts under his bus. especially your first two talking points. I think Sanders would agree that Clinton is eminently qualified for the POTUS job, and you show your lack of grasp with that silly and childish "DLC" canard (look 'em up--they've been dead for years--YEARS). Anyone using that old Boogieman hasn't updated their talking points list.

Further, if she is so horrible, why did HE TAKE MONEY FROM HER for his Senate campaign?

smh.

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Response to MADem (Reply #49)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:42 AM

106. One small point.

DLC is dead about the same as PNAC is dead. Plenty of people in high places still supporting the principles.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #106)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:00 AM

127. DLC (not DCL) is in boxes at the Clinton library. It's dead.

PNAC has "evolved" into FPI--same founders, same mission, same mindset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Policy_Initiative

FPI's Board of Directors consists of former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Eric S. Edelman, Dan Senor, Editor of The Weekly Standard William Kristol and Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Robert Kagan. The latter two were project directors of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century.

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Response to MADem (Reply #127)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:07 AM

132. Oops, sorry for typo. Still say it's about as dead as a zombie. nt

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #132)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:14 AM

138. The Obama wing runs the Democratic Party these days.

And most of the old DLC players are retired or no longer working in politics. Those that are still active have adjusted to "Chicago style."

Too much water under the bridge.

The next generation of Democratic leadership may be something else, entirely--but DLC's time is done. They were useful in getting us back into the game, but Obama's victory proved that the tack is in a different direction.

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Response to MADem (Reply #138)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:19 AM

144. "Different direction"....? Oooookaaaaay. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #127)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:44 PM

178. Just like Blackwater "no longer exists", and nor does Xe anymore, but Academi LLC does...

 

http://www.thewire.com/business/2012/08/time-blackwater-change-its-name-again/55532/

Likewise "Diebold" doesn't exist any more but "Premiere Election Systems" does...

http://crooksandliars.com/2007/08/17/diebold-scrubs-wikipedia-changes-name-of-voting-machine-subsidiary

And it goes on with other "bad names" of entities like "Clear Channel", which is now "IHeartRadio", etc.

DLC as a named entity no longer exists, but the entity in terms of people and mission still exists with "Third Way", and it is still trying to manipulate perception of terms like "progressive" with its creation of things like a term it described itself earlier in what of its name changes as the "Progressive Foundation" and what the DLC/Progressive Foundation/Third Way group has no created as a think tank of the "Progressive Policy Institute", which pushes things like the TPP, etc.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Progressive_Policy_Institute

We have to look past names and look at the substances of names and people's "labels". Most that look under the covers of Bernie see that what he describes as "democratic socialist" aligns with what they want for America's future. Many people haven't had time to pay attention in the past to look underneath labels, but more are doing so now as the country gets drug down more and more under corruption and manipulative policies.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:51 AM

118. Bingo!!!!

I don't give a shit if you support Clinton. If I think it is a wrong choice, so what. I am not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me otherwise.


RIGHT ON POINT!!! Thank you for saying it!!

#GotBerniesBack!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:51 AM

13. I can, if you don't hold the values for uplifting society as a whole that Bernie speaks of

 

then you most certainly would prefer a Hillary over a Bernie. That's not so hard to fathom. I consider myself fortunate in that my personal values are in sync with those espoused by the Sanders campaign though.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #13)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:09 AM

21. Your statement is the very hyperbole I mention in the OP. Your mind is LOCKED.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #21)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:12 AM

25. You're right. It's "LOCKED" on voting for the greater good. eom

 

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #25)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:20 AM

33. And Hillary IS PROGRESSIVE and is for the GREATER GOOD too. So, if you can UNlock for a minute:

 

* Debt free college

* HUGE investment in education, training, and small and medium business development

* Employee profit sharing

* Higher minimum wage

* Planned Parenthood / Women's Health / Right to choose

* Headstart/Early childhood education.

* Criminal Justice Reform

And the list goes on and on.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:51 AM

14. Today's right will be tomorrow's middle

if we keep sliding ever rightward with the corporate wing of the Dem party at the helm.

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Response to Broward (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:09 AM

22. Not possible, Broward. The nation's moving leftward again. Big pattern!

In the 1970s, the nation began moving strongly right, more conservative.
The middle and moderate right of the 1970s became today's hard right.
The moderate left of the 1970s became centrist, the strong left became mildly left.

Today, the nation shifting back again -- leftward. Big pattern!
The left (us) and the moderate conservatives (many now estranged from the remnant GOP as part of this shift and calling themselves independents) are moving back TOWARD where they were before. Not there yet but moving.
The remnant hard right is frozen in place -- as usual -- fighting with everything they have to hold onto power, but they're losing. (The GOP's lost 1/3 of its membership as a part of this move left.)

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:59 AM

16. Re "Bernie Sanders would be disgusted with these anti-Hillary posts":

How so? He launched his campaign with a big gulp of sludge from Clinton Cash and wasn't shy about it. And that was when he wasn't slamming Obama 24/7 for selling out the world by attempting to regulate international trade via TPP. Bernie is no better than any other pol in this regard and worse than many and I frankly don't see the necessity of this particular disclaimer which lends an air of sanctity that doesn't exist.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #16)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:35 AM

48. Fact free content from Hillary

 

and her supporters is what turns me off.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:26 AM

148. They are facts, they are free, they are here for all to see

. . . and the cassions keep rolling along!
------------------------



Bernie Sanders' Brutal Letter On Obama's Trade Pact Foreshadows 2016 Democratic Clash

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/bernie-sanders-michael-froman-tpp_n_6419874.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013



-----------------------
from: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6645149

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:12 AM

26. HRC Really?

 

Yes Bernie is a Democratic Socialist as am I. His record holds up against any Democrat. "She is Brilliant" ? What does that mean? I hear supporters rave about her 20 bills she supported and got passed in office. Have you ever check to see what they were? The majority were to rename a building in honor someone. Not exactly hard hitting legislation. Her money ties contradict a Progressive as much as the denials continue. IMHO and HRC administration is just more of the same old tired worn out crap! This country needs real change and the people are pissed off and ready for that change!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:19 AM

30. The OP just glosses over the "Third Way" issue without any arguements to support the denial.

She posits that Bernie's being a (Democratic) Socialist is why he has no endorsements, again with no analysis of than because he is a Socialist. How about his lack of political endorsements being because if he is elected those same politicians risk losing their ability to receive campaign (bribes) contributions since Bernie is pushing Publicly Funded Elections?

Hillary is polarizing to the Republicans to get them out in force to vote. Bernie is polarizing to the left, independents, and Republicans also fed up with corporate control over our government.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:20 AM

31. "SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST"

Maybe you should put this in all caps & in red letters as the title every time you write an OP. Interestingly, I am seeing this much more often from Hillary supporters than I am from anyone else.

The FOX news crowd think anyone left of Richard Nixon is a communist (and they have no clue what that means). They call Hillary a communist just as easily as Bernie. Read their forums if you doubt me. Piling on the red-baiting is not going to help you.

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Response to TBF (Reply #31)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:03 AM

70. Correct. The right *already* calls Obama a Socialist.

And they were calling him that even before the 2008 election.

i.e.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/03/like-socialism

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/19/mccain-decries-obamas-socialism/?page=all


Yes, BS is going to have to expend some energy continuing to explain "democratic socialist" and how his "socialist" label doesn't necessarily mean quite what some people thinks it means. And HRC is going to have her own loop of things she's going to have to keep explaining, and I think at least as much as BS, there will be a group of people who aren't going to buy her answers no matter what she says.

But heck, it didn't matter how much Obama explained, he was still black. And he still won.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:23 AM

35. No.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:24 AM

38. I could be happy with either candidate

But would prefer Bernie. I've done my best to stay out of the Hillary Bernie wars but do find myself becoming more and more uncomfortable with Hillary. That uncomfortable feeling has less to do with her actual policies but rather with how very choreographed, scripted, and controlled her every appearance is.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:24 AM

39. She has my vote.

The whole name-calling/hectoring schtick leaves me cold.

I think, if the default instinct is to shit on another candidate rather than explain how and why one's own choice is preferable, the touter is operating from a negative perspective and doesn't have a hope in hell of prevailing--and that's all I'm hearing.

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Response to MADem (Reply #39)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:58 AM

126. The whole name-calling/hectoring schtick leaves me cold--MADem

 

I love it.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:29 AM

42. Nope. It defies logic.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #42)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:33 AM

47. AND facts.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:31 AM

43. No, they cannot

And it is one of the greatest flaws in their thinking.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:32 AM

44. I have so many friends that tell me that they really like Bernie, but they are going to vote

for Hillary because Bernie can't win over Hillary. I tell them to vote for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the general. But the general consensus is "No, it would be throwing my vote away". I just have to scratch my head because that seems to assure that Hillary will beat Bernie.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:32 AM

45. Must be so annoying that Bernie's supporters just will not obey you!

 

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/09/421807-hillary-clinton-moderate-bernie-sanders-tone-speech/

But while speaking in Ohio last week, Clinton said:

“You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center. I plead guilty.”


Hillary is a Centrist. She changes her stances on social issues when convenient. But, you know, a politician cannot claim to love children and then vote NO on not using cluster bombs. Unless, of course, it is only American children she professes to care about.

You support Hillary. Others support Bernie, and have given their reasons why, many times.

The nasty posts back-and-forth have nothing to do with that.

You really need to accept that Bernie's supporters are not going to switch to supporting Hillary, switch to supporting more war, fracking, the TPP, cluster bombs, etc., just because you constantly order them to do so. But, I fear your mind is locked.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:36 AM

50. I'm sorry but voting for Hillary Clinton

is just the same as voting for Jeb Bush. Hillary isn't "progressive" by any stretch of the imagination and I don't even see how you can honestly make that comment. She's a war hawk as far as foreign policy and she and her husband have a tendency to look out for the very wealthy and support bad Republican legislation (NAFTA, Bill's "get tough on crime" bill, "workfare", etc.) domestically.

Your argument that Bernie couldn't win the general is silly. The left would rally around Bernie the way they would around any candidate running from the left, and numerous polls have shown that the word "socialist" doesn't carry the negative baggage that it used to - the younger generation isn't as afraid of it as the older generation (and I'll assume the majority of Hillary's supporters are probably older Democrats).

The biggest thing hurting Hillary at this point is that she is simply not a likable person - she doesn't inspire people, she's fake, and she's changed her position on too many things to make anyone think she has a moral center. She simply says what is polling high at the time (and this is in cases of war, gay marriage, etc.).

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:41 AM

54. HRC - First Political Leanings - Republican - Now - Republican Lite

eom

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:42 AM

56. You`re really, really persistent with this anti-Bernie stuff.

Hillary supporters are very lucky to have you speak for them and point out all the problems with Bernie. Some of these pro-Bernie, anti-war, feed-the-poor Democrats are really way out there on the fringe, aren`t they?

I remember replying to you before and asking you to Google what a "Democratic Socialist" is, because that is what Bernie calls himself. You might even be able to find the video/speech where he explained the difference. That way you wouldn`t have to waste your time trying to smear him with the plain old "Socialist" label. You could concentrate your efforts on explaining Hillary`s Iraq War vote or her ties to Corporate Headquarters so more people might want to vote for her.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:49 AM

59. Pick an issue where Hillary holds a better position.

Just one.

At all?

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:52 AM

64. Sometimes we have to look at electability

even more than our hard-line 'principles'. I learned my lesson in '10 when Charlie Crist was the spoiler in Florida. I knew Kendrick Meek would never win because the Dem Party support was almost non-existent. But rather than vote for the very popular, very electable Crist, I stood by the Democrat. So you can thank me and my principles for Marco Rubio.

Although both Hillary and Bernie are human and therefore flawed, both would be good presidents. As always (but it seems more this go-round than ever before) either one is a brazillion times better than the alternative. I will be voting for the Democratic candidate. Period. The nastiness should only be directed toward the other side --the repugnant party.

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #64)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:49 AM

158. Got it....

But Bernie was never a Republican (Charlie Crist/Hillary Clinton) that turned into a Democrat later on...... #JustSaying

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #158)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:23 PM

171. I hardly think being a Republican

as a young person, nearly 50 years ago, disqualifies Hillary any more than being a lifelong Socialist disqualifies Bernie, maybe even less so. Crist is another story.

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #171)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:30 PM

173. Well you voted for Charlie....

Also, as a Progressive, I've no problem in the least voting for a "Lifelong Socialist" before voting for any former Republican from just last week or 50 years ago. #JustSaying....

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #173)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 06:59 PM

212. No. I guess I wasn't clear. I voted for Meek.

I chose principle over elect-ability. I voted for the sure loser instead of the newly declared 'Democrat' - Crist. And we got Rubio. And I have no idea of your age, but I'm up there in years and I've changed a lot since high school/early college. So that's one area I'll cut Hillary (or anyone) some slack.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:55 AM

66. Nope. I cannot. The differences are so fundamental.

If this were a hold your nose race, Clinton vs Biden, I might be able to see voting for her. Bernie or O'Malley provide clear alternatives in political philosophy and approach.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:56 AM

67. ER, check the walls of you own house to make sure they'e not made of glass

 

"condescendingly claiming" "burned out line"" nowhere near the kind of nasty attacking of Bernie going from the Hillary side around here" "self-described socialist and this nation is not ready to elect a self-described socialist. Period." "TOO far to the left" "Sanders would be slaughtered" "he just can't win"


When such hyperbolie is flung at us, we're not going to respond with, "Yes you're right. We should just give it up and support Clinton, and ignore what we believe has happened to the country and what is needed to fix it."

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:09 AM

72. "Just ain't gonna happen."

This is what baffles me. I hear over and over again that Bernie can't win because he's a socialist. But I never see any support for the assertion.

Here's why I think Bernie will get the votes if he gets to the general:

* Bernie has a history of getting Republican votes -- not a majority of Republican votes, but enough to give him a majority overall. That's how he keeps getting elected in Vermont.

* Bernie has more potential than anyone else to get people who usually don't vote at all to vote for him. People stay home because they see the same-old-same-old. Then they look at Bernie and they see the potential for real change.

* Bernie's ideas are in line with those of most American voters. Given the chance to hear him, voters will understand that.

* Bernie, more than anyone else, will be good for the American people at a time when our needs are great; people will vote for him because they can see that. Bernie has explained that by socialism he means a system like that of the Scandanavian countries, a system run for the people's benefit, a system at least as democratic as the one we have now. That means better things across the board, for all the people. If prosperity is a zero-sum game, who pays for that improvement? The banks and corporations, who have been getting more and more of the wealth as they have gained more and more control of the system.

I'd bet my last dime that you're right that if Bernie is nominated the other side will scream, "'SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST' from the rooftops for months on end, day after day." And if Hillary is nominated, they will scream, "Benghazi. Email. Benghazi. Email." Those issues have been debunked? So effing what? Most Republican voters probably don't know that, and if they do know it, they will forget. The Republicans who control the message will find something ugly and untrue to scream about the Democratic nominee no matter who that is. (And I include socialist in the category untrue because of the way they use the word. Yes, Bernie is a socialist, but he's not what they try to conjure up in people's minds when they scream it.)

My fear is that we'll miss a rare chance, perhaps our last chance, to elect someone who is not beholden to banks and large corporations, who works for the people. We'll miss it just because many Democrats believe he can't win, because he's a socialist.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:11 AM

75. Sanders is not a socialist

even if he calls himself one. Of course that word socialist has been hijacked and re-branded that almost anyone can claim it today. If Sanders was true to his stated beliefs and ran on the Socialist party I would vote for him. As someone who pretends to be something, why would I want to vote for someone that couldn't get things done? I will take ex-governors or secretary of states as the liars that represent me any day over one that cannot even be true to his own beliefs.

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Response to MyNameGoesHere (Reply #75)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:32 PM

194. But manny here argue that Obama is a republican, because he compared some policies to theirs ONCE.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:18 AM

81. I almost agree with you.

Absolutely, she is well-qualified, and she is no Republican, as your first two asterisks indicate. I can even add more reasons someone may prefer HRC, as I mentioned in another thread... I understand why people may feel she might be better at working with Congress, and I understand that people may prefer her foreign policy experience. She may not be as liberal as BS, but not every Dem is as liberal as BS either... I don't think all the Reagan Democrats have passed away. So yeah, despite being a BS supporter, sure, I can understand why people can prefer HRC.

The place I really part ways with you is the third asterisk. I addressed the "socialist" thing in post #70. But your bigger point here is really electability, which comes up in many threads, in many ways. I recently addressed that in one of those other threads, and I will repeat here:

-----

I think it will be very tough for him to win the nomination, but if he does, I think he has the better chance of winning the general.

Some related thoughts...

... all the national polls are pointless, because president's aren't selected by majority vote (just ask Al Gore). You have to look at the states, and specifically, the states that are in play. (i.e. no Republican will take New York away from either Hillary or Bernie.) It's really way too early and there's been too little state-specific polling, but along those lines, this article is interesting:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/22/poll-crucial-swing-states-shows-sanders-electable-clinton.html

... The right is more anti-Hillary than they are anti-Bernie, they've been stoking hillary-hate for decades, they can't possibly whip up that much hate for Bernie in a matter of months. There is a group who will be motivated to come out just to vote against Hillary, regardless of who the Republican candidate is. Sanders won't have that strike against him.

... The right, like the left, has a contingent that is just sick of "business as usual" (hence the popularity of Trump/Carson/Fiorina). Assuming the Republicans end up nominating a more conventional candidate, some of these voters may stay home rather than vote for either a Bush (or similar) or a Clinton, but may just consider voting for Bernie as a kind of poke in the eye to the establishment. And there are libertarian-style people on the right who may be drawn to Sanders on things like the patriot act, foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping and the like. He certainly isn't their ideal candidate, but "half a Paul" may be better than none, if the alternative is a mainstream Republican. Republicans do sometimes vote for Democrats (and vice versa)... you can't assume they are all a lost cause. I think Bernie can potentially get more of them than Hillary can. He supposedly got 25% of the republican vote in Vermont.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/09/18/bernie_sanders_i_got_25_of_the_republican_vote_in_vermont.html

(And I'm sure Hillary got Republican votes in New York, too.)

... There are so many other variables that will alter the landscape between now and the GE. For example, maybe you'd see a Sanders candidacy more positively with the right running mate (Elizabeth Warren?), or against a given opponent. I think it's awfully early for anyone to be saying he'd have "no chance in hell."

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:18 AM

82. I think the red-baiting against Obama has ironically defanged the term "socialist"

The Tea Party has screamed "socialist" at Obama, a corporate Democrat, for so long without any understanding of what the term has meant historically that less informed mainstream Repubs and Democrats, raised or born during Cold War, who used to recoil at the term tend to tune it out.

I mean, when you repeatedly scream that someone with obvious pro-Wall Street policies, who steadfastly protected the free market in health care, a "socialist," many people who don't really understand the term are actually _softened_ to it. I mean, if THAT's socialism, then they don't care.

Some in the Republican party have gone more to the right because of this red-baiting against Obama and now associate anything left of rapacious unregulated capitalism with "socialism" and "communism"--but they're nuts anyway. We were never going to reach them.

Everyone else is beginning to think, "meh." It's kind of like the evolution of people around women's rights over the past 50 years. When woman-haters kept screaming "bitch" or "lesbian" or "slut" at strong women as if that's an insult (my constant experience in the 1980s--if you spoke up you had to be discredited with one of the three standard epithets), finally enough people said, so what if a woman's strong or if a woman loves other women or a woman has sexual agency? Why is that an insult? The screaming of the extremists finally backfired. The culture changed around them and what they think is an insult is either meaningless or has turned into a compliment.

And so it goes with "socialist." It's not the conversation-stopping epithet it was even 10 years ago. We can paradoxically thank the right wing crazies for some of that.

Less informed independents and more open-minded Republicans may think, well, they tell me Obama's a socialist, but I like and trust Bernie a whole lot more than Obama or Hillary, and he's actually talking about returning our lives to the prosperity of my parents and grandparents' generation, so let's try his kind of socialism.

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Response to zazen (Reply #82)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:06 PM

187. The nuts just throw out "communist", "fascist", "nazi", "socialist" to describe Obama...

 

... in just a name calling exercise where it is pretty obvious that they don't understand what the meaning behind those terms are, only that they can just call people these names to try and engender hate towards that person amongst their fellows that have the same hate, that is more driven out of their own racist core than anything else.

Look how so many of them in the very same posters they hold up (sorry for the offensive nature of some of these here), just to try and criticize someone that they don't like when they have no substantive words they can say against him.





I KNOW these are offensive. But I think it is important that we see how they characterize someone they don't like when they don't know how to substantively criticize him. That is what is reflected by those who throw up the "socialist" moniker as a reason to not vote for someone like Bernie. It's the same mind set. More and more people are discovering that "socialism" isn't the bad term we've come to think of it as. Do we have a lot of pressure to attack one of our big socialist programs in "social security" to be renamed to something like "capitalist security" so that it can be looked on as not being a communist conspiracy? Too many people know the substance of "social security" being something that they and their family depends on as they get older, and that is why it doesn't get attacked in the same way.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:24 AM

86. There's a reason why the right are so intent on demonizing socialism.

 

Because socialism is a very powerful idea that scares the hell out of them.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:26 AM

89. K&R!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:35 AM

96. Tired of status quo

 

Corporatist moderate republican democrat light candidates, policies and governing. I'm all in for Bernie. This nation, in the past, has been far more socialist than now. In fact free college used to be a reality. Now the budgets main priorities are : war, tax cuts and as a result - debt. I don't see Hillary bringing robust change. Yes, Obama has been better than Mitt, but honestly on a whole host of issues important to me, the distinction between the two isn't broad enough. I'm ready for someone to really shake things up and turn in a new direction. Hillary doesn't represent that perspective in the least. She will likely not get my vote. I'm done with the cycle : vote for crap candidate better than their crap candidate. Hope for best. Rinse, repeat. Bernie.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:40 AM

101. I don't

 

Nope.

I've asked why before why people support Hillary & you know what I got? *crickets*
Not one single Hillary supporters answered my question. Not a one.



Bernie would be disgusted with these attacks and we should follow in his tracks? I suppose then it's fair to say that you should be wishy washy on your opinions too because Hillary is, eh? (I kid but you can see what I did there)

Hillary isn't progressive, at all. Nope. In fact Hillary even called herself a moderate and this is one thing that annoys the living hell out of us Bernie supporters! Quit painting her for something she isn't! A progressive doesn't vote to send us to war, doesn't defend the sanctity of marriage, DADT, and doesn't have former KXL lobbyists working for her. A progressive isn't against a $15/hr national minimum wage with saying that it's "too much". HILLARY IS NOT A PROGRESSIVE! http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/politics/hillary-clinton-democrat-progressive/ Progressive's don't say that "undocumented children of migrants need to be sent home".

Your points about Bernie are pretty off and you speak the Republican talking point of how Bernie is a "socialist" when in fact he's a Social Democrat. It's only American's which have a problem with this label while the rest of the world doesn't. You say "they'll scream "socialist!" yet you fail to realize that Republicans absolutely HATE Hillary with a passion that's been build on decades of aggression. Even Republican pundits say that Bernie would be harder to beat than Hillary because of this. Hillary would ensure the GOP base shows up to vote in order to make sure she's not elected. Do you have any idea the kind of crap we'd see in DC f by some chance she was elected? It would be one giant Benghazi hearing her entire career and it would make the gridlock now with what we have with Obama seem like a Saturday night at the disco.

"We must win, we must do this, can you imagine Trump?" No. I'm sick of this lesser of 2 evils bullshit and so are many others. No. To me and many others, they're basically in the same camp. I won't vote for her. She doesn't represent my morals or my values and I firmly believe in someone who has conviction when they sleep, not someone who wakes up one morning and changes their mind like flipping pancakes.

You scream Republicans would be in fear yet guess what? Bernie crosses over with them! Hillary will NEVER have support like that.
https://twitter.com/GOPforSanders
https://www.facebook.com/republicansforbernie?fref=ts




We need THIS!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:41 AM

102. No!!!

And it's Bernie or nothing! If not Bernie, this will be an election the Presidential Candidate box will be skipped for the first time, and the rest of the Ballot will be checked or circled accordingly. (P/S/ -- There are many folks planning to do the same if Bernie is not the nominee. Not voting against Hillary but, not voting for her either).

#GotBerniesBack!!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:42 AM

105. There does seem to be a lot of vitriol toward Hillary by telephone Sanders supporters

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #105)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:52 AM

119. Do you know why that is?

 

Because we view Hillary as the establishment is why. Many Bernie supporters are 2 things--Warren Wing democrats and indy voters.

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Response to pinebox (Reply #119)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:31 PM

174. If supporters are a reflection of the candidate then I can't support them

As an undeclared I get turned off by such aggressions as I have seen by Sanders supporters.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #174)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:07 PM

188. We'll do it without you..

thanks for playing.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #174)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:54 PM

202. You should be declared

 

because there is only one real candidate who stands with people right now and it's not Hillary. You get turned off but you need to realize this is both conviction & passion. We're sick of our democracy being sold to the highest bidder where corporations are the ruler of the free world.

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Response to pinebox (Reply #202)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:53 PM

210. I think I will wait and see

Make observations, comment where appropriate or I desire input and then support the nominee.

There is nothing that says I have to declare. I could wait until I am in the voting booth for that matter. It is my choice.

I recall other candidates in previous elections that were the end all be all and there was no stopping them until there was. I will take my politicians with a grain of sand and see who is on top as we head into the general.

I only know at this point which candidates I will not vote for and they are all Republican.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:46 AM

114. Hai

HAi

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:48 AM

116. K & R, very good post.

Speaking for myself and others I know, Hillary supporters are Democrats to the bone, we will also support the DNC nominee, to not vote would be supporting the GOP, to vote for other than the DNC nominee would be voting against the principles we hold near and dear. We see what having a Republican president and Republican congress produced, stay at home and not vote, hell no, I will not hand the Republicans a victory.

I doubt everyone posting on this site is Democrats, and of course they love to smear Hillary, pushing for staying home and not voting, stating you will not vote for Hillary is Republican.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #116)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:12 AM

136. If Hillary is the Nominee.....

-If she is the nominee. Will vote the REST of the Ballot, skip completely voting for President.
-That is a VALID choice and many will follow it.
-It is not "Republican" its called FREE CHOICE/FREE WILL.
-We are not obligated to follow the party into a river if they say jump, nor are will required to walk in lock step for their DLC Nominee. ---Chew on THOSE FACTS!

But, Bernie's is doing quite well right now. That crowd of 32,000 last night in Boston was quite impressive. What is Hillary's largest crowd size by the way? Never mind.....

The People are feeling Bernie and the more they Learn, more they like.

We already know Hillary quite well and no thanks to Establishment/Wall Street/I "so-called" care about a Progressive issue here and there/But I'm a War Hawk Politics. ENOUGH of that BS!

Thus, as in 2008 when a little known Senator came for almost nowhere to beat the PUMA Hillary push, got more than a feeling a Senator from Vermont (a little more known that the Senator from Illinois was) will do the same.

#GotBerniesBack

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #136)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:39 AM

154. Pllaying right into the republican hand, this is what they want.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #154)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:41 AM

155. This Line is Tired....

As the Clinton's attempt as a Family POTUS Dynasty.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:55 AM

121. There is a loud segment of Bernie supporters who are always disgruntled.

Its not the majority of Sanders supporters.

Here on DU, its the same sub-set of folks who run what I call the "DU's Combustible Hair Club".

They've complained about Obama from day one. They read between the lines and can always find Obama's evil intent. They demanded a primary challenge against Obama in 2012. A giant waste of time. They've predicted doom and gloom over and over and over during his Presidency. And they've been wrong over and over. Obama's term is coming to and end. Hilary's positions are similar to Obama's, so now they've turned their scorn in her direction. They were sure Warren was going to run and would have preferred her to Sanders. Their support for Bernie is convenient. Day in, day out, they sit on high making pronouncements regarding who the "real liberals" are. They are sure that you and I, and anyone we might support, does not measure up to the standards they maintain for themselves. They are DU's self-proclaimed High Priests of liberalism. And they sit in judgement over the rest of us. Just ask them.

And I will again observe that these folks have tended to be wrong over and over.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #121)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:01 PM

162. Just as....

You are wrong that Bernie Supporters are Disappointed Obama leftovers. Not disappointed with Obama in the least. There has been policy disagreements but that is expected with any POTUS. Overall, strongly believe Obama's heart was in the right place BUT, he had to work with a GOP/Split Congress all but two out of this eight years so he got what he could.

Never will be disappointed in the first African-American President ever and proudly voted for him in 2008/2012.

But, still not voting for Hillary. Did not in 2008, won't in 2016 either. #GotBerniesBack!!

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #162)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:02 PM

163. I did not say all ... I said a "loud segment".

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:58 AM

123. Because they are delusional, dishonest, or both.

 

* Bernie Sanders is NOT a Self-described Socialist. He is a Democratic Socialist. So, this statement that you made proves that you are either dishonest, delusional or both.

*Hillary Clinton describes herself as a Moderate, she is not a Progressive. Another false statement which prove that you are dishonest, delusional or both.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/politics/hillary-clinton-democrat-progressive/

^snip^

"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."



*Brilliant is a matter of opinion. Unless you can provide an IQ test for her, then you are just presenting your impression of her as fact. It isn't.

*Her main qualifications are:

-Being First Lady, which even she is not running on anymore. Last time around she was so desperate to find some justification for running on being First Lady that she falsely claimed to have had to run with her head down because of snipers. Maybe you think she is Brilliant but I would think that this is evidence to the contrary.

-Being Secretary of State. We have not had a former Sec. of State as President since 1861, and he is considered one of the worst. Sec. of State is where politicians go to end their careers, not to forward it. When was the last time a former Sec. of State ran for President? You can't answer that because of how extremely rare that is. Maybe she will be the exception, but it seems that having been Sec. of State is not widely accepted by the American people as a qualification for being President.

-Being Senator. Yes, she won 2 (count them 1...2...) elections in her entire life. Both were in a high population Blue state. Most any well funded (D) could have won those elections. As a Senator, she was a war hawk. Her most notable accomplishment in those 8 years was her vote and the 19 minute speech in favor of authorizing the use of force in Iraq, but that is not the only thing she did that made her a hawk. She also co-introduced legislation to increase the size of the Army. Besides that, her time in the Senate is pretty mundane. Average at best. Her speech in favor of the war in Iraq overshadows everything else.



I'm very sorry, but the idealized version of Hillary Clinton which you have is not real. She was not a great Senator, by any definition. Her time spent as First Lady is not a qualification for being President and no former Sec. of State has been President for over a hundred and fifty years either. I admit that being SoS may help her, but only because she has almost nothing else to run on.


*****Now, if she wins the nomination I will vote for her. I will vote for every (D) on the ticket, as always. Yes, I will show up, as always. I won't be happy that she is our nominee but my vote will count exactly the same as someone who holds some fanciful vision of Hillary as a conquering hero. I sure hope she doesn't go off the rails and make some crazy statement equal to, or even worse than, the sniper thing. She just isn't worth the risk.




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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 10:58 AM

124. If you prefer.....

TPP, capital punishment, three strike laws, mandatory minimum sentences, IWR, fracking, SS cap for the wealthy, banksters, Wall Street deregulation, private prison industry, the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act ...... go ahead and vote for Hillary.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:01 AM

128. Hillary represents the policies of the past

Bernie has a new path

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:06 AM

130. No I cannot see ANY reason to vote for Hillary.

 

She is not brilliant and she is not qualified, she was a terrible failure as secretary of state, she did nothing as a senator. She is untrustworthy , she is self centered and egotistical. She will do anything or say anything to anyone at anytime if she thinks it will help her to get the power she feels entitled to.

There is no way she will win an election in this country. The republicans have been preparing for this for decades.


Besides that, is a win with hillary actually a win??? I think not. She is a right of center tool of corporations and the wealthy.

No thanks. If she gets the nomination it will be the first time since 1976 that I did not cast a vote for the Democratic nominee for president.

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #130)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:11 AM

135. I will, if necessary, vote for her in the general.

SCOTUS.

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #130)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:11 PM

168. to think everything in your first paragraph

requires being in a right wing bubble.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:10 AM

134. This using DLC as a perjorative is naive and ignorant

The fact is the DLC gave us the first Democratic zzz president in 12 years and only the second on 24 years. People had jobs. The future looked great for the first time.

People are completely ignorant to what it was like under Reagan/Bush. I think these people owe the DLC a debt of thanks. For most of them, their parents wouldn't have had jobs to start the family they were born into. But then, that's why so many are ignorant to any if this.

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Response to Gman (Reply #134)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:32 AM

151. Oh, I'm old enough to remember both.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #151)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:28 PM

172. The good tremendously outweighs any not so good

There's no comparison, really.

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Response to Gman (Reply #172)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:35 PM

197. Any D beats any R in my book, but...

Media consolidation and bankster deregulation are huge contributors to the mess we're in today.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #197)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 07:12 PM

213. And the D's are guilty of being in bed with them

But in the whole, any D is better than any R.

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Response to Gman (Reply #134)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 10:04 AM

228. Thanks. The Puritopians on this site

that see no difference between the administrations of Bill Clinton and George Bush are sadly misinformed.

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #228)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 12:59 PM

233. The vast majority of them weren't even born yet

So the world actually began when they discovered there was a world.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:15 AM

140. Enough already

There are some Bernie supporters and some Hillary supports that post attacks. Let's ignore the few that do that and have honest debates on who should be the candidate.

Everyone should stop sinking to the low level of attack posts, even commenting on them should be avoided.

Though the Republicans can yell Socialist at Bernie. That's about all they have on him.

They have a huge arsenal built up for fighting Hillary.

I'd rather Bernie got the nod, but if Hillary is the one that wins the primaries then I will vote for her.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:24 AM

146. Opinions differ on qualifications. I don't think Hillary is qualified.

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:25 AM

147. I Don't Pay Attention to All the Banter ...

back and forth between Hillary and Bernie supporters, but I have read enough of the posts here to feel like your post is a classic case of projection As Shep Smith said recently, "You might want to consult a mirror."

It strikes me that some Hillary supporters lash out at Bernie supporters simply because Bernie is currently winning and gaining momentum. Frankly, their behavior strikes me as desperate.

Can Bernie win the general election? He has surprised all of the experts and many of the rest of us to this point hasn't he?

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Response to KPN (Reply #147)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:45 PM

199. Really. (re ignoring banter)

I shouldn't have even taken the time to jump into this thread, as I'm sure there were more useful things I could have done with the time......

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:54 AM

160. Of course.

Because everyone is not like me. Everyone has their own needs and sensibilities. We are allowed this. It would be extremely boring otherwise. I have not even read the entire op nor anything passed post #1 because the problem we have is what tears us apart, the inability to let others be with their own choices. I may not agree with you but I try to respect your life and choices. I don't hate any of you but a day on DU makes me consider it. Sad. Time out is most appreciated. So we disagree, so what?

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:57 AM

161. It has something to do with why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch

 

Either that, or why it's called apple jacks if it doesn't taste like apples.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:03 PM

164. You were fine right up until you dived right into the anti-Bernie screed.

Nothing fires up a Bernie supporter like a claim that Bernie is unelectable, or that Hillary is inevitable. When someone, anyone starts out saying "I like Bernie but..." we stop listening, because we already know what's coming.

I generally reply with: remember that "commie pinko black Kenyan" who was too far to the left to win? And remember, America simply wasn't ready to elect a black man into office.

You claim republicans will scream socialist from the rooftops, and I agree, they will. And that will be their downfall. They have nothing else to scream. Socialism just isn't the dog whistle of yesteryear. Bernie also has a knack for dismantling fear of his democratic socialism... and his supporters haven't exactly been just sitting on the sidelines either.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:09 PM

167. No

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:23 PM

170. Quarter million dollar speech to CitiBank! Iraq War Vote!

 

Hillary has plenty of weak spots that will be shouted to the rooftops if she's the nominee.

Hillary can't get the Occupy Wall Streeters to line up to vote for her with her $250,000 speeches to banks. Hillary won't get the votes of some of the anti-war activists due to her Iraq War vote.

If I believed that Hillary would definitely win and Bernie will certainly lose, I could understand your position better. But, I don't.

Obama won with ENTHUSIASTIC support from young people. Young people lined up to vote for him, they persuaded their parents and grandparents to vote for him, they created campaign songs and videos for him, they worked the phones and knocked on doors for Obama.

Bernie Sanders has the young people enthusiastically behind him! They turn out to his rallies, they are creating art and music for Bernie, they are talking with their elders.

Ten percent of the population canceled their TV service in the last year. Most people don't watch TV commercials, even if they still have cable, they use their DVR. Refusing to support the candidate with enthusiastic support of young people so we can nominate someone who can raise a billion dollars for TV ads is a losing strategy, I believe.

I'd MUCH rather go into the GE with the support of excited young people instead of a billion dollars worth of TV ads.

If Democrats want to WIN, we'll nominate Bernie Sanders.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:41 PM

175. Socialism

Let me preface my remarks by saying I have read Marx, Rousseau, Heilbroner, Marcuse, Lenin, Michael Harrington, and Charles Lindblom, and I have no idea of what most people refer to when they call themselves or other socialists.

I like John Lennon's definition of socialism, "if socialism means the government should see to it that granny gets her teeth fixed then I'm a socialist."


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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:43 PM

176. No

eom

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:52 PM

181. Hillary is simply untrustworthy

 

So no, there is no reasonable excuse to support Hillary over Bernie. Either her supporters are innocently uninformed, willfully uninformed or unethical.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:54 PM

182. Sanders is as good as, or better than Clinton on EVERY issue..

so, no. And quit pissing your pants over what Republicans are going to call the Democratic nominee. Choosing a candidate based upon which one will be attacked less by the Republicans is just straight up chickenshit nonsense.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:05 PM

186. Honestly, no, I can't.

I didn't like her in 2008. I don't like her now.

I'm sure she's a nice enough person, but her ever-changing positions, her Iraqi war vote and the way she plays politics to benefit herself and not the country leave me cold.

BTW, I don't find her all that "brilliant," either. I was a new mother sitting at home breast feeding with no access to any intel and I knew the Iraqi war was wrong. If she was so brilliant, why didn't she?

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:33 PM

195. No, I cannot comprehend it

 

Would Hillary be disgusted by all the anti-Sanders posts? Or is she paying for them?

She is not a 'progressive' she is a self professed 'moderate' of the third way ilk.

She is what you say she isn't. Your OP is mostly McCarthyist spin. Do you still support her?

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:33 PM

196. You should thank Bernie for bringing some excitement to the party.

Last year everyone was resigned to a Bush vs Clinton GE and the majority of people were not very enthusiastic about the dynasties continuing either way. Now we have some energy and the millennials are coming out in droves. Independents and conservatives are also looking at Bernie. Bernie has been a game changer for the party.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:12 PM

201. Not really.

I would love to see a woman POTUS, but not at the sacrifice of my principles.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:10 PM

206. 100% for Bernie

The more I've learned of HRC over all the years she's been in our face...the more disgusted I've gotten.

No more Bush...No more Clinton...and especially No more Hillary.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:36 PM

209. Ok I will play

How about we refer to Hillary as a neo-liberal that represents inverted totalitarianism ,one step away from fascism. “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”
― Benito Mussolini

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:37 PM

218. I mean she was only one of the founders of the DLC, how in the world would someone think she is

Turd Way?

That is soooo kooky and far out.



I would think my tongue would slither up and throttle my by brain if it sent instructions to so vehemently refute decades of clear and observable reality.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 04:36 AM

220. The 63% prefer Sanders n/t

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 08:37 AM

223. No, I personally cannot fathom why any Democrat would prefer Hillary.

 

Enough so that I've adopted the working premise that every single Hillary supporter is a fake Democrat along with their fake Democratic candidate.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 08:55 AM

224. I was with you until the Socialist point

People said similar things about electing someone named "Barack Hussein Obama" to the White House in 2008.

With unregulated casino capitalism ravaging our society and the world, I think the time is ripe for a discussion of "Democratic Socialism" (which is what Sanders espouses) as a viable alternative to the crisis Reaganism has wrought. (For more on Democratic Socialism, see: http://www.dsausa.org/).

I think it's long past due to overcome our historical amnesia and recall that socialism was on the rise in America between the Gilded Age and World War I, with socialists elected to state legislatures and even to the US Congress. After WWI (and the Russian Revolution especially, which scared the hell out of capitalists in the US), there was a very repressive Red Scare in America that unleashed a violent reaction against socialism in America.

The Great Depression revived socialism and communism in the US and the threat of a Soviet-style revolution in the US (or a fascist takeover on the other extreme) was so real that FDR was able to convince enough of the wealthy elites to support the New Deal.

WWII, McCarthyism, and later COINTELPRO, the Corporatist reaction of the '70s and '80s, along with authoritarian Communism, has led to the near total demonization of socialist alternatives to unregulated capitalism. With capitalism's growing failure to deliver the goods and services people need, it's time to take the horns and pitchfork from socialism and explore those alternatives again.

Having said all that, I'm not a Hillary supporter, but if she gets the nomination I will vote for her.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 10:55 AM

231. Sure they just have different priorities and values then I do

 

They will vote their choice and I will vote mine

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Oct 5, 2015, 10:55 PM

235. FFS, another "Bernie can't win" post. LOL, can you say "desperate"? Nt

 

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