2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Sanders Promises To Do Everything He Can To STOP TPP On The Senate Floor
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is promising that he will do everything he can in the Senate to stop TPP from being approved. In a statement the Democratic presidential candidate said:
Wall Street and other big corporations have won again. It is time for the rest of us to stop letting multi-national corporations rig the system to pad their profits at our expense.
This agreement follows failed trade deals with Mexico, China and other low-wage countries that have cost millions of jobs and shuttered tens of thousands of factories across the United States.
In the Senate, I will do all that I can to defeat this agreement. We need trade policies that benefit American workers and consumers, not just the CEOs of large multi-national corporations.
It is going to be difficult for Sen. Sanders and TPP opponents to stop approval of the deal. President Obama supports the agreement, and he said that every word will be available for public review before he signs it, “Once negotiators have finalized the text of this partnership, Congress and the American people will have months to read every word before I sign it.” Obama’s promise means that the American people have an opportunity to read the agreement for themselves and pressure Democrats to reject it. TPP could also become a major point of division between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders on the campaign trail.
From what is known at this time, TPP looks like another bad trade deal for American workers. Democrats have been burned by trade deals past and are at best skeptical of TPP.
cont'
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/10/05/bernie-sanders-promises-stop-tpp-senate-floor.html
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DCBob
(24,689 posts)No means nothing and status quo continues with all its problems. I suspect Hillary will come out pro-TPP. It will be a bit risky but I think she will side with the President.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)
jfern
(5,204 posts)But in reality her triangulation is why her trustworthy levels are so low.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)But I'm sure her advisers have also let her know how risky this could be to her nomination chances.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)That is the biggest reason I am not voting for her, at least not in the primaries.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Is its substantially negative implications in combatting climate change:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/10/05/3709061/tpp-agreement-reached-environmental-concerns-remain/
That's what confuses me about Obama: he recently comes out strong in supporting significant measures to combat climate change, but at the same time gives the ok to Shell to drill in the arctic (which fortunately yielded nothing resulting in Shell abandoning the effort), and pushing the TPP, which also runs counter to reversing course on the climate.
He either doesn't get/see the interconnections, or still has some "debts" to pay to the oligarchy.
What we should be working towards is the antithesis of the TPP: a model where consumer goods are produced locally by local workers for the local economy...more jobs for communities and less carbon and pollution by not manufacturing goods in countries with weak environmental laws and not shipping things all over the planet.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)and actually like my bank. Not everything is the enemy.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Oh wait, nothing is made here anymore. Let's blame Obama.
senz
(11,945 posts)You want to blame somebody, blame Reagan and Clinton.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Is that what you are saying by omitting him from you worst two or does Clinton fit your Bernie agenda?
senz
(11,945 posts)I wasn't talking about "the worst two;" I was addressing your remark about job loss. Sounds like you're more interested in verbal fisticuffs than giving this subject any thought. Now I don't know if you're one of those fake ids that comes in and snarks or if this is just the way you are. Assuming the latter, I would advise you to research subjects related to this discussion. It may not be as much fun as empty verbal fisticuffs, but it could deepen your mind and enhance your well-bring.
My "Bernie agenda" is promoting whatever benefits the American people. You might try that, too.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)and compare it to Clinton and Obama. Insults aside I have my opinion and only one id.
senz
(11,945 posts)Bush, for all his obvious faults, was not responsible for outsourcing. Which is what your comment addressed.
This isn't about "which president was worse," this about deregulation that allowed corporations to outsource jobs. Again, read up on it.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Armstead
(47,803 posts)And a handful of corproatins have chosen to be evil more than good and we have allowd handful of banks to become too big, and inherently evil.
There are good people within these institutions, and the institutions also do some good things.
But on balance we have allowed greed and institutional and personal egomania to become the default positions, and drive out the good in favor of the bad -- to the determent of individuals, the economy, the government and society overall.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)This is nothing more than grandstanding from a politician. Seen it before.
There's probably a better chance of stopping it in the House.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Yeah, the Republican-dominated House is very interested in stopping the TPP. And I'll be the next Pope!
There was a reason we were fighting so hard over the TPA bill. You're now catching up.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)TPA passed the Senate with 60 votes.
There are 435 members of the House and 100 members in the Senate. If you were familiar with basic math, you'd understand that the bill had a tougher time passing the House.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)So that they could go back and claim they voted against it. But they waited to 218 to cast their "no" vote, indicating they were all set to vote "yes" if it needed to pass.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)They were in the House, looking at the vote tally. For a long time. They had ample time to vote "No" before it hit 218.
So what were they waiting for?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Why do I need to waste my time being your personal Google when a reply or two later you will just say "But you don't really know why they waited!!!"
Feel free to provide any reason for those Reps to hold their "No" vote until there were 218 "Yea".
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Official "no" votes were actually "yes" votes in a world where TPA had an easier time passinig the House than the Senate, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the official vote tallies.
Your brilliance is unparalleled.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Why'd they hold their "No" vote until there were 218 "Yea" votes? Any reason at all to hold it. Feel free to use space aliens or unexplained localized time dilation.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)"No" votes were actually "yes" votes and basic math can be thrown out the window when you're talking about the TPA roll call vote in Congress because...well....just because.
Apparently "they" held their votes, but you can't actually tell me who "they" are.
Thank you again.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Why did they hold their "No" vote until there were 218 "Yea" votes?
Mass mind control?
Totally spaced out from smoking pot while they waited for the vote?
MADem
(135,425 posts)That is how it works during this time of year in election season. We're entering the "sound bite" phase--candidates start trying to hone their messages into bursts of blah-blah that last fifteen seconds or less, to be included in a 30 second commercial, usually in aid of a "compare and contrast" argument.
I haven't seen a breakdown of who comes down where on TPP in the legislature. Have they done a vote count yet? This is a party-line-crosser, so it's hard to know.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Since 2001, nearly 60,000 manufacturing plants in this country have been shut down, and we have lost almost 5 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. NAFTA alone led to the loss of almost three-quarters of a million jobs — the Permanent Normalized Trade Agreement with China cost America four times that number: almost 3 million jobs. These agreements are not the only reason why manufacturing in the United States has declined, but they are important factors.
The TPP would also give multinational corporations the ability to challenge laws passed in the United States that could negatively impact their “expected future profits.” Take, for example, a French waste management firm suing Egypt for over $100 million for increasing the minimum wage and improving labor laws. Egypt’s “crime” in this case is trying to improve life for their low-wage workers. Or Vattenfall, a Swedish energy company, has used this process to sue Germany for $5 billion over its decision to phase out nuclear power. Should the people of Germany have the right to make energy choices on their own or should these decisions be left in the hands of an unelected international tribunal?
We have an astounding and ever-growing trade deficit and we are binding ourselves with yet another trade agreement?
I get it. We are trying to buy friends.
But it won't work. You can't trust friends that you have to buy.
We don't have to have a trade agreement with a country in order to trade with it.
I'm for maintaining our dignity and our sovereignty as a country, trading with countries as we choose and not as some international body tells us to.
I'm sure Viet Nam will be happy to sell us products even if we don't sign the TPP.
I ask you genuinely: What in the world does the US, meaning ordinary, working Americans (as opposed to international corporations that now run the US) have to gain from YET ANOTHER trade agreement?
Please answer that question, because I don't see a bit of benefit.
MADem
(135,425 posts)My comments were about campaign strategy.
Don't read more into remarks than are actually there--it will save you time.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Considering Sanders has spent hours over the years talking to empty chambers in Congress and five CSpan watchers to challenge and try to educate about these awful "free trade" scams, it is demeaning to say that this is just creating a sound bite for a commercial.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The nasty petty smears are getting worse every day.
Desperate and pathetic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Maybe he should have tried a different tack.
"Educating people" by talking to empty chambers on C-Span isn't really the best way to let the word go forth.
It's a good way to get a sound bite for a campaign commercial, though.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)That was not ALL he did, and he has been totally consistent in this issue for decades.
If he gets a sound bite for a campaign commercial more power to him. One of the benefits of someone like Sanders into the race on that level is it is forcing issues into the larger ampaign and public dialogue that the corporate politicians would prefer to sweep under the rug.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)You know, the people -- who will be hurt by this deal? Nah, you probably don't know...
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Will she:
A. Go against everything she's ever espoused and denounce a trade agreement;
B. Support the agreement knowing that most of the Democratic base despises it;
C. Triangulate so that no one really understands, fully, her position one way or the other; or,
D. Try to ignore it for as long as she can?
Thats her MO.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)She will probably mention something about maintaining closer alliances with our Asian friends in an effort to restrain China. I think most voters will get that.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
tularetom
(23,664 posts)And amazingly, she will do all four in the same sentence.
But of course, she will do it in such a way that nobody will be able to pin her down.
And it will all depend on what the meaning of is, is.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)going way back, way back... It might go!... Goodbye! A home run!
randys1
(16,286 posts)Are any even undecided?
And either the Senate and/or Congress Pukes were 100% behind it.
Now about the DINO's that support it.....
zalinda
(5,621 posts)
hedda_foil
(16,985 posts)
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)she will not want to piss off her corporate donors, but she wont really want to say she supports it because its a loser with the people
she will hedge and if confronted at the debate, will change topics and try and throw in some meaningless applause line having nothing to do with tpp.
senz
(11,945 posts)She'll figure out what she can get away with.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)I wonder what's happening in parliaments of the other TPP signatories?
ZM90
(706 posts)We need massive worldwide protests against the TPP ASAP.
senz
(11,945 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)that's in question. Short run, they'll be willing to "try it out." But as with NAFTA, once corporate capture is in place, workers' votes won't affect business much if at all. And there goes the national standard of living. Up for some, down for us.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Maybe that's what they're waiting for, to see who they can endorse.
But IF it passes, it is even MORE necessary that we have a President who will be the one to have control over it for the next six years, who will NOT use that power to further harm America's working class.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Gotta get the endorsement announced before people get a chance to see what they're endorsing.
senz
(11,945 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)After the NAFTA disaster...HOW?
I'm looking at YOU, Mrs. Clinton...
Broward
(1,976 posts)responding that our major differences are with the Republicans. Well, on some issues the corporate Dems are indistinguishable from
the Repubs. To exclusively direct our ire at the Repubs only serves to protect the current power structure. The ongoing sellout of the corporatist Dems must be challenged if we want to achieve any meaningful change.
senz
(11,945 posts)No other candidate represents our interests as well, and few other elected representatives can make that claim, either.
This issue is about the People vs. the Corporations. It takes tremendous courage and will to stand up for the people and against the corporations in such an intense, high profile case as this. Bernie has both qualities, in buckets.
He needs our support. WE need our support.
This one really matters.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We don't need these trade agreements.
We especially do not need the trade courts.
Let a company that wants to address unfairness in our markets come into our country and face our judicial system.
Democracy is more important than "free" trade.
Bernie Sanders says we Americans have lost 5 million decent-paying industrial jobs and 60,000 industrial plants just SINCE 2001.
The source on those numbers is an e-mail I received from Bernie this morning.
Then there is our trade deficit:
The U.S. Census Bureau reported that the annual U.S. trade deficit in goods and services increased from $476.4 billion in 2013 to $505.0 billion in 2014, an increase of $28.6 billion (6.0 percent). This reflected a $6.5 billion (2.9 percent) increase in the services trade surplus and a $35.2 billion (5.0 percent) increase in the goods trade deficit.
However, the small increase in the goods trade deficit masked important structural shifts in U.S. goods trade. Although the U.S. goods trade deficit in petroleum goods declined by $43.7 billion (18.8 percent), the U.S. trade deficit in nonpetroleum goods increased by $77.5 billion (17.0 percent). The increased trade deficit in nonpetroleum goods is largely explained by the increase in the U.S. trade deficit in manufactured products, shown in Figure A.
http://www.epi.org/publication/increased-u-s-trade-deficit-in-2014-warns-against-signing-trade-deal-without-currency-manipulation-protections/
We do not benefit overall from these free trade agreements. International corporations that don't pay their fair share of taxes in the world, much less in the US, do.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Go Bernie!
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)We make our voices heard and it does have an impact. And we have Senator Sanders to take our voices, unify them, and amplify the message.
They can hear us now. 
antigop
(12,778 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Come to think of it, that's probably Corporate America's greatest fear.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Or he can do what he's doing. Grandstand.
senz
(11,945 posts)because the TPP will end up harming the American people. That's not grandstanding; that's statesmanship. Bernie Sanders is a much needed voice of truth in our government. And in case you haven't noticed, people are coming out by the tens of thousands to hear him speak the truth. No other candidate draws such large, enthusiastic audiences.
But go ahead and make your snide remarks. They let us know who you are.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)You still have to get those millennials off their cell phones long enough to go stand in line at the voting booth.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I suppose it makes no difference if a relatively unknown candidate is speakingto rooms of 30 people or one who draws thousands thorughout the country?
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Let's just ignore all bad legislation that's backed by the power elite, and let them ram through whatever they want with no opposition or publicity.
Great. No more grandstanding. That would be a real step forward for democracy.
artislife
(9,497 posts)She is pro TPP and everyone remembers how screwed the workers were after NAFTA.
And once people realize what is in the friggin bill....
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
However, he won't get much support from his Corporate owned colleagues.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts) beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Since Clinton has steadfastly refused to take any position at all on it.
shireen
(8,340 posts)about why he opposes it? He or Elizabeth Warren? I trust their judgement, but I want to learn more about it. I checked his campaign web site but did not find anything.
randome
(34,845 posts)The vast majority of the benefits of the TPP will not accrue to America but to other countries, bringing their standards of living and of safety up, which is to everyone's benefit.
The alternative is to let these countries match China's standards, instead.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]
Nitram
(27,749 posts)I, too, would like to hear more factual discussion of the pros and cons of the TPP. So far it has sounded a bit hysterical and very light on actual facts. Sounds to me a lot of assumptions are being made without much to back them up.
NonMetro
(631 posts)I've listened to him for years. This guy knows his stuff - and he's right 99% of the time, too! Go Bernie!
Nitram
(27,749 posts)But you know what they say. Love is blind.
A bit snarky on your part, don't ya' think?
Nitram
(27,749 posts)"Bernie Sanders Is On The Leading Edge On Everything, All The Time!...and he's right 99% of the time, too! Go Bernie!"
Sounds like someone in love.
NonMetro
(631 posts)But Sanders is not wrong very often, and he's hit the nail on the head when it comes to the TPP, IMO.