2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary Clinton Won the CNN Debate With a Surprisingly Spectacular Performance
Hillary Clinton arrived in Las Vegas as the overwhelming front-runner for the Democratic nomination, and she was destined to leave as the favorite, too. Instead of turning in the safe and solid performance she needed, though, Clinton was closer to spectacular on Tuesday night.
She was confident early and poised throughout. More surprisingly—and perhaps more importantly—she also drew first blood on Bernie Sanders, who was put on the defensive early when CNN moderator Anderson Cooper pressed him to explain the biggest blemish on his otherwise progressive resume: His 2005 vote to shield gun makers and dealers from lawsuits. With Sanders struggling, Cooper turned to Clinton to ask if her rival is “tough enough on guns.” Hillary, who earlier this month cleverly made repealing that same law a centerpiece of her gun reform proposal, didn’t hesitate. “No,” she said, “not at all.” Toward the end of the debate she was even able to put some focus on the historic nature of her candidacy and to take some shots at the GOP, two themes that would certainly be central to any general election campaign.
Bernie had his own strong moments during the debate, but he never quite recovered from his early stumble—particularly in front of a boisterous Democratic crowd that seemed to favor his establishment rival. Hillary’s lesser-known challengers, meanwhile, struggled to keep their sights set squarely on Clinton: Former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley went after Sanders, former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chaffee took a shot at former Virginia Sen. Jim Webb, and Webb spent way too much of his limited speaking time complaining … about his limited speaking time.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/13/hillary_clinton_won_the_cnn_debate_with_a_surprising_performance.html
DSB's note:
I would be remiss if I didn't note the fact that all our stellar candidates acquitted themselves admirably and how impressed I am and was by Senator Sanders' passion and advocacy.
It was a great night to be a Democrat.
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msrizzo
(796 posts)Substance and very little, if any, posturing. Although I favor Hillary, the debate made me feel that any of those three would make a great president. We needed that at this point in the campaign.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Yallow
(1,926 posts)Hillary did a great job?
She's a Progressive?
Really Hillary?
And you were demanding the Pigs on Wall Street be prosecuted when?
You occupied what?
You opposed what outsourcing friendly trade bills?
If you are a Progressive, I am a Conservative.
Gimmee a break.
CNN says you won because they know you will have to pay for far more ads if nominated than Bernie will, and your Wall Street buddies will have to pony up $$$$$$.
It's as simple as that. You won't hear that anywhere in the MSM. They are looking for $$$ and you are simply a cash cow.
Hillary did a good job during the debate pretending my family's interests are her top priority, while Goldman Sachs is her biggest buddy.
Sorry Hil. I have a brain.
Bernie all the way.....
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Polls and focus groups give it to Bernie.
But, this is to be expected.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,856 posts)As a dispassionate observer candor compels me to write that all our stellar candidates acquitted themselves admirably and it would be unwise to hold one out as a winner. I will leave that to the pundits.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The M$M are embarrassing themselves.
beaglelover
(4,466 posts)It WAS a great night to be a democrat.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I agree with the last part of your post though. A great night indeed, I'm still not over it yet! What a big difference between the Repub debate and ours. Night and Day!
artislife
(9,497 posts)Because when Bernie defended Hillary, he seemed pretty Presidential....Presidential like President Obama. Getting to the heart of the matter and being gracious. Heck, if he became President, I could see him asking me to pay for her debt and offering her a job in his administration....not sos but maybe something with the focus on women.
I didn't see any of that graciousness from her.
lame54
(39,773 posts)And can see it was Hillary's night
Yallow
(1,926 posts)She has been practicing for 25 years.....
Unfortunately for her, most Americans realize it is Bernie who is truly on the side of their non billionaire families.
Not Hillary.
And I like Hillary, and respect her family.
When she says the pigs (criminals) on Wall Street belong in prison, I will respect her even more.
(crickets chirping)
And she said the economy is rigged when?
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Of course, if you're talking about the party elite and not the average Democratic voter, you're probably correct.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And the clue is that she not only won but did it in spectacular fashion. That seems to be the pattern when spinning it, to overstate it so that knocking it down to just winning is still a win.
And yes this is expected.
R B Garr
(17,985 posts)I saw the CNN poll being spammed with Disagree votes before Clinton started speaking. So phony.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)it's time for a people's revolution. Bernie is the truth teller.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)The media that is trying to shape every aspect of what we see. Them, those guys. The ones just days ago, reported on the emails with glee.
Good lord, wake up!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)What I care is that the organization uses the best standards and practices of sociology in conducting its polling.
Online polls do no such thing.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)
U of M Dem
(154 posts)was sleeping through half the debate. O'Malley went after Hillary plenty, Bernie recovered from criticisms he fielded gracefully, and HRC demonstrated clear support for Neoliberalism despite erroneously re-labeling herself as a progressive. HRC was sharp but seemed to channel a High school mentality of snark with those "no" answers and she did not come across as stately. Bernie was the candidate who resonated with people consistently by appealing to the positive and to the common human morality. HRC had appeal, sure, but her highly polished, rehearsed, and robotic nature continues to rub people the wrong way next to Sanders candor.
Nitram
(27,758 posts)If it was Bernie, you'd probably consider a no answer honest, forthright and clear. "Robotic" in nature? Your biases is glaring to say the leasat. Sure, Clinton rubs YOU the wrong way. You are a true-blue Bernista to the death and intensely dislike Clinton. I suspect your biases colored your experience of the debate.
U of M Dem
(154 posts)I should not voice my opinion and/or it is irrelevant?
No thanks, I will not be subdued by that inane argument.
I could suggest that you refrane from opining as well but this line of thinking is inherently anti-debate and undemocratic.
I suggest that you refrane from prognosticating regarding others' behavior or opinions without at least knowing or understanding them.
Gamecock Lefty
(708 posts)Why he relabeled himself as a Democrat?
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,856 posts)Let us rise above the fray, be beacons of light in a sea of darkness, and celebrate our stellar field of candidates.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)And, I could say something snarky about your Ole Ball Coach, but I won't.
Go Vols!
cprise
(8,445 posts)And Clinton scolded Sanders for not being a capitalist -- she implied he is un-American. Looked like hypocrisy to me.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)She's doing great. Can't wait until the next debate.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)youthful. It was such a relief to see/hear all of them. It was such a striking difference from the republican debates filled with hostility and anger, and how best to screw most citizens. Also, the dem debate had substance as another poster said and I agree.
And, there was no craziness like seen in republican debates.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Should be handled, thanks CNN for great moderators. Hillary did very well, got some of her issues presented, she was great.
Etraker
(59 posts)She showed herself to be a politician and not a public servant. She can't give a non political answer. I will give the Marijuana answer she gave as an example and point to the fact that she voted for the war and the patriot act. She is no better than the rest of the political scum as far as I am concerned. If she gets the nomination I think I will sit this one out and I do not think I will be alone.
zglmoo
(9 posts)Setting out the election because your candidate don't get the nod is selfish and stupid. You just as well change to the R party and vote. Not voting is equal to giving the Rs a vote.
If there is not a true public servant in the race I am not voting. I am tired of voting for Politicians. She voted for the Iraq war and the patriot act. Enough said. If we can't put an honest person in as President I am quite willing to let nature take its course. If we keep putting politicians in we will eventually get the bloody revolution that history always brings. May as well quit slowing down the process.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... we think of these people they're going to disappoint us on some fronts but will do great on others
CTyankee
(68,216 posts)If a repub wins he gets to name some SCOTUS members and that could spell doom for the future of Roe v. Wade. I will NOT sacrifice the reproductive rights of my 3 granddaughters because I didn't get my pony. It's as simple as that.
Yallow
(1,926 posts)Did Hillary mention $15 an hour minimum wage?
I don't recall....
CTyankee
(68,216 posts)A $15 minimum wage is not a pony. It is a decent wage for hard work.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Which is what you are actually advocating.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 14, 2015, 10:33 AM - Edit history (1)
me off.
Bernie Sanders' definite "NO" to the question about continuing the NSA spying on Americans was excellent. Every telephone poll, our e-mails, etc. Bernie was right.
We are not free when we are constantly under surveillance, constantly being watched.
And the odd thing about all the surveillance is that in spite of it, we have all these mass murders, some of which are virtually announced ahead of time on the internet.
So if they are watching the internet and scanning our e-mails, what are they looking for?
If it isn't criminals like these mass murderers, then is it our political opinions?
What is going on with that?
Bernie answered that so well. For me, that alone won the debate for Bernie.
Hillary's answer about the NSA surveillance and the Patriot Act was particularly pandering and disgusting. That was for me the low point of the debate.
And I hate to mention this negative issue, because overall the debate was great for the Democratic Party. Hillary spoke of her work for the Children's Defense Fund when she got out of law school, but I cannot understand a lawyer who even did a bit of criminal work according to one of the books about her, defending the NSA's overbroad surveillance program. It is hard for me to understand how she can justify it. Get a warrant. That's the law. That's in the Constitution. If you don't have a warrant, you don't look at my private e-mails. And if you don't define them as private for purposes of the 4th Amendment, I ask you why do you think we have passwords (hate them myself) to get access to our own e-mails. A password is a lock. If I haven't given you the key, dear NSA, then you should not be reading them. (Not that my e-mails are of any interest to anyone anyway but it is a question of the principle.)
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)cprise
(8,445 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)You aren't supposed to have listened to "the words".
You are supposed to look at how well she looked in her office, how nicely her make up was, how she stood at the podium, how calm she appeared and how soothing her voice was.
So she didn't come off as she had in the past and that is considered a win, because it is a Khardasian driven world according to MSM.
They are the ones who are driving it.
If my candidate is not the final, I will support the dems, 100%. WE CANNOT allow the republicants to get the white house.
geardaddy
(25,392 posts)
SmittynMo
(3,544 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
Darb
(2,807 posts)you.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Good debate. Her numbers will rise.
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)she won't pivot to doing the work of her corporate masters once elected, as Obama and Bill did?
I don't think so. While it seemed Bernie proved he understands the broken system that get nothing done for Main Street and working Americans.
At some point the boxing glove might have to be put on by either Bernie or O'Malley with respect to Bill Clinton's presidency reegarding deregulating banking, NAFTA, most favored trading partner with China.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Meaning she can choose to agree with what she likes and disavow what she does not like.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Not by anyone else.
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)And Trump is offering his "critique"--which is friggin hilarious.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I do believe winner declarations are subjective. I find that frustrating. 
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Plus, is she using Obama's debate style which works better for a mid-westerner than Bill's. There were times when it could have been the POTUS up there.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Stated well by Chaffee,. and not picked up in the after debate media commentary at all, yet was a significant moment in the debate.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Good to see her not afraid to get a bit aggressive. While I think that Bernie's polices are better for America, and that he CAN win if nominated, it's comforting to see that her debating skills are reasonably sharp if she's the nominee. ANY of the five on stage are better than any cretin (apologies to cretins) that the Republicans might run.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)I was mightily impressed last night 
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)I am tired of the establishment in politics. I want truth, 99% being on top, no more kids going hungry, I want no more Oligarchy to rein.
Hillary is establishment, PAC enabled, Wall Street's bud, will change her stance at the drop of a hat and says what she needs to because winning is what her and Bill are gonna do this time by golly.
Bernie is the real deal, the FDR, the honest one who cares for the people. Hillary is royalty who will cater to the corporations, has been on the board of Monsanto, is in bed with Wall Street and was very political in her answers last night. She relished in saying "no" to Bernie regarding his strength on gun legislation which was absolutely false. She puffed her body language like a rooster crowing. Bernie wants all the things that should be done about guns. She will try to put him down every chance she gets. She knows the MSM is for her. You could tell she knows the fix is in for her to win.
I do not want another Clinton another royal elected by billionaires. As Bernie says only the mass of people can change the continuing ownership of our government back to the people. It's time to take back our country. It's now or never I'm afraid.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)she's STILL Hillary and for me what she's says versus what she will do is, has and will be a problem for me. I simply don't believe what she's saying now because I've SEEN this over and over and over BEFORE!
Despite what Obama has achieved, what I feel and see about him has changed DRAMATICALLY!
JMHO
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Between that, her Iraq War and Patriot Act votes, and her slimy marijuana and Snowden replies... How can *anyone* believe this Human Weathervane?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
stonecutter357
(13,045 posts) Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Occasionally, when she laughed, it seemed she was cackling at the misfortune of others. Also, her make-up was so heavy that it made her appear like she was trying to hide her age. It's also obvious that she will pivot right back to the GOP as soon as the primaries are over.
Bernie also was somewhat disappointing. He didn't handle the democratic socialism question as well as he could, and once or twice he sounded less confident or more evasive than I would have hoped.
One thing is for darn sure, the election is being decided in the primary. The Republicans are coming off as flat-Earther know nothings, fascist wannabes and obnoxious gun-toting hillbillies.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,856 posts)I respectfully dissent. Bernie and Hillary acquitted themselves admirably and demonstrated for their supporters the qualities that attracted them in the first place.
As someone who prides himself on not seeing age, race, gender, orientation, et cetera I eschew lookism and really do not feel qualified to refute or embrace such observations.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)This was his first national debate. He answered the questions with the time allowed and did a good job. She was A political...he was real!
Martin Eden
(15,635 posts)If the metric is based on whose electoral chances were helped the most, it's possible that Hillary "won" the debate.
As always with the MSM, the horse race is the primary topic of discussion.
Intelligent voters, however, know how to differentiate rhetoric from substance. Was Hillary believable when she labeled herself a "progressive" or when she stated she had "hoped" TPP would be the "gold standard" when in fact she had said it was the gold standard of trade agreements?
Hillary Clinton turned in a fine media performance, but nothing she said earned any trust or confidence as far as I'm concerned.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)the ptb's agenda. She is not trustworthy and that's not just my opinion. Her comments last night were not those of someone sincere but those of someone who just has to win.
stonecutter357
(13,045 posts) workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Sorry Bernie fans...(not really)
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)They are, as the media likes to boast, "performances." There was nothing either surprising or spectacular about anyone's performance. Furthermore, there was no winner, even though CNN introduced it like it was the promo for a Vegas title fight, and the questions were confrontational. In a real debate, as in a title fight, a panel of judges determines a winner, not the side that shouts the loudest.
What made the democratic candidates stand out from the earlier republican performers was that they actually addressed significant national policy issues. Sadly, personality and body blows make for more entertaining news that policy.
SunSeeker
(58,285 posts)
moobu2
(4,822 posts)Csmajor5
(13 posts)you probably voted independent last election.
Logical
(22,457 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)eom
DCBob
(24,689 posts)They were hoping for a Hillary meltdown and a big night for Bernie. They are also touting the internet polls as some solace that what actually happened was somehow wrong. Funny.
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)Hillary dominated the vast majority of debates in 2008, although Obama did edge her in a few of them. She's easily our most skilled debater since her husband. A giraffe would win the Olympic limbo contest before Hillary could sleepwalk through a debate like Obama did in the first meeting with Romney.
There's such resistance to Hillary among the flank of the party that she'll never receive balanced appraisal from that group in a debate setting or elsewhere. It's more comically pathetic than anything else. You could source the identical words, themes, tone and gestures from another candidate in a Door Number One setting and be greeted with rave savior reviews. Pull back that curtain to reveal Hillary...suddenly it's scoffs.
I'm not saying I don't understand it. The same dynamic attaches to a general election to some degree, a not insignificant block who won't trust or consider Hillary. That's why I'll always contend we erred to massive degree in running Obama first and Hillary second. Reverse that order and it's a clear path to 16 consecutive years, a feat that hasn't unfolded since forever. Hillary would have cruised in such a Democratic friendly terrain like 2008, with Obama waiting unblemished in the wings for 2016. Now we're stuck with the less likable candidate trying to barely prevail in a 50/50 environment like 2016. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. There's nothing like fear and impatience as opposed to wide scope clarity.
Great Ali avatar, BTW. Two weeks ago I was in Louisville for a week while attending the closing of the Churchill Downs fall meet parlayed into opening weekend a few days later at nearby Keeneland, site of this year's Breeder's Cup. I fared so well with Apple stock and sports investing that now I mostly cruise around. Hard to believe at one time I knew all about this political stuff, the tipping point numbers of every state and race. Seems so far removed...
While in Louisville I spent nearly an entire day at the Muhammad Ali Museum downtown. Impressive joint. Several floors. Tons of info on Ali's life and career, including sit down video access to full tapes of 15 fights. I watched Cooper, Liston I, and Foreman.