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The Iranians are not MY enemy. (Original Post) stone space Oct 2015 OP
My friend Naseem is flying back to Tehran tonight for an extended visit. NBachers Oct 2015 #1
Love it artislife Oct 2015 #17
Hillary really blew it with her response... Herman4747 Oct 2015 #2
I agree. Obama has been keeping us out of a war with Iran. cprise Oct 2015 #34
Hillary was referring to the government of the Islamic Republic, Hortensis Oct 2015 #38
If that is the case, is it too much to ask... Herman4747 Oct 2015 #83
Yes, it was a mistake that did leave her open to misinterpretation and attack. Hortensis Oct 2015 #85
more of the same... ? krkaufman Oct 2015 #94
WE also do well to show restraint and diplomacy, rather than reflexive hate-mongering, KRKaufman. Hortensis Oct 2015 #97
I thought she did fine up until then. Why couldn't she have said "the ayatollahs" or eridani Oct 2015 #89
Enemies list... krkaufman Oct 2015 #95
That was about JackInGreen Oct 2015 #3
I agree. Enthusiast Oct 2015 #6
The most disturbing to me were her references to god. That always Hortensis Oct 2015 #41
I'm Jewish, and had Iranian friends in college back in the 1980s. bullwinkle428 Oct 2015 #4
+1! Enthusiast Oct 2015 #7
I had the same reaction. cprise Oct 2015 #35
The Supreme Leader of Iran is an enemy to progressive values oberliner Oct 2015 #5
I was complaining about Israel once artislife Oct 2015 #20
Good point oberliner Oct 2015 #32
Oh, yes. Please do not blame me for Congressman Doug Collins, Hortensis Oct 2015 #48
It must hurt to see artislife Oct 2015 #51
Hi again, Cascadia. No, 'cause I'm from California originally. :) Hortensis Oct 2015 #61
Just as we should oppose war-mongering ultra-right leaders in Israel. Ikonoklast Oct 2015 #36
Right - for the people. But Iran's government is quite progressive Hortensis Oct 2015 #46
Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast Oct 2015 #8
Iran hasn't done shit to us but Hillary wants to police the world. JRLeft Oct 2015 #9
Well, leftynyc Oct 2015 #23
And we've committed mass murder. JRLeft Oct 2015 #26
And that has zero to do leftynyc Oct 2015 #27
This has everything to with our forever warring in the middle east and our constant siding JRLeft Oct 2015 #28
Your charge was that Iran leftynyc Oct 2015 #40
And I replied that it was for a reason. JRLeft Oct 2015 #43
And for some reason leftynyc Oct 2015 #44
Which country is waging war on multiple continents and countries and has been fighting wars it seems JRLeft Oct 2015 #45
Hey, you don't have to convince me leftynyc Oct 2015 #54
Dear "leftynyc" - FairWinds Oct 2015 #63
I am most certainly aware leftynyc Oct 2015 #66
The 'H' is for Hawk cprise Oct 2015 #37
I have zero desire leftynyc Oct 2015 #39
Your establishment heroes have conditioned you cprise Oct 2015 #50
LOL leftynyc Oct 2015 #56
LOL cprise Oct 2015 #59
Have you ever seen me leftynyc Oct 2015 #68
I think for most people, living in a torn-up country cprise Oct 2015 #74
We had no business getting involved leftynyc Oct 2015 #77
Actually, in terms of aid the Europeans far outshine us cprise Oct 2015 #79
Sorry leftynyc Oct 2015 #81
If the US wants its military fingers in all the pies, then cprise Oct 2015 #84
Context is everything. gregcrawford Oct 2015 #55
So let's see leftynyc Oct 2015 #57
Ummm... gregcrawford Oct 2015 #60
Really? leftynyc Oct 2015 #67
Iran is an religious extremist state. Oneironaut Oct 2015 #75
Compared to Saudi Arabia, they look like Sweden. eom cprise Oct 2015 #80
sometimes the hypocrisy dwarfs all reddread Oct 2015 #93
The Iranian people aren't our enemy. MynameisBlarney Oct 2015 #10
Thank you for the sanity JayhawkSD Oct 2015 #11
If HRC wants to fight the Iranian enemy . . FairWinds Oct 2015 #12
We have done some truly awful crap to Iran, but our leaders never speak of it. Dustlawyer Oct 2015 #13
Just the position we would expect Thespian2 Oct 2015 #14
I have Iranian friends too treestar Oct 2015 #15
Stone space Iwillnevergiveup Oct 2015 #16
The Iranian people certainly aren't my enemy, but the Ayatollahs certainly aren't my friends. tritsofme Oct 2015 #18
What acts of genocide have they committed? Martin Eden Oct 2015 #21
The government executes people for being gay. The Iranian government is the enemy of some Iranian Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #31
Are you Martin Eden Oct 2015 #47
The Iranians should be our natural allies ... much more than the Saudis Martin Eden Oct 2015 #19
Most people don't realize how the Shah artislife Oct 2015 #24
Ignorance of history is a major impediment to progress in the United States Martin Eden Oct 2015 #25
So much this, Iran would have been an entirely different nation now. Ikonoklast Oct 2015 #42
You think Iran would be a secular socialist democracy? oberliner Oct 2015 #49
The direction they were possibly heading before the coup, my best guess. Ikonoklast Oct 2015 #52
What about Fadayan-e Islam? oberliner Oct 2015 #58
The coup ensured their eventual success. cprise Oct 2015 #64
They might have been successful anyway oberliner Oct 2015 #65
So its better to establish imperial control from the cprise Oct 2015 #69
Of course not oberliner Oct 2015 #73
The Iranian people are very pro-western on average I think Dem2 Oct 2015 #22
Iran may never be 'aligned' to the West cprise Oct 2015 #76
But but Rafale Oct 2015 #29
And neither are the 55 million Americans who are registered Republicans, Hillary. canoeist52 Oct 2015 #30
It was a bizarre response from the candidates who said Iran our biggest threat d_legendary1 Oct 2015 #33
I sure hope we don't invade Iran, just cause the Saudis want us to, or just cause the Isrealis want MasonDreams Oct 2015 #53
rec'd FlatBaroque Oct 2015 #62
I know a lot of Iranian Americans Report1212 Oct 2015 #70
She was throwing a bone to the right with that statement AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #71
Agreed. Nor do I desire to piss off any group who disagrees with me. Fearless Oct 2015 #72
Anyone with a brain knows she meant the government of Iran patsimp Oct 2015 #78
What I don't get is that she says this AND claims a hefty share of the credit for the Iran deal karynnj Oct 2015 #82
The people Gonzalo Oct 2015 #86
knr nt slipslidingaway Oct 2015 #87
Hillary voted to allow the Bush administration to go to war with Iran jfern Oct 2015 #88
This is actually a bullshit lie. tritsofme Oct 2015 #90
I suppose you're going to argue that the Iraq war resolution didn't matter either? jfern Oct 2015 #91
No, the 2002 AUMF is a public law. The other is a sense of the Senate resolution, tritsofme Oct 2015 #92
Iranians are an awesome people! Their government sucks though. Ours sucks too, but not as much. Vattel Oct 2015 #96

NBachers

(16,515 posts)
1. My friend Naseem is flying back to Tehran tonight for an extended visit.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 07:48 AM
Oct 2015

I told her to carry a message: Not all Americans are hateful ignorant fools who want to bomb her country.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
38. Hillary was referring to the government of the Islamic Republic,
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:37 AM
Oct 2015

in particular its right-wing hard liners and religious extremists. Not all the Iranian people who'd get rid of them in a heartbeat if they could.

Personally, I don't see any difference at all between the kind of religious extremists in America and those in Iran who believe they have the right to murder many, many millions of people for their god.

Because of their hostility and aggression toward "others" and their tendency to always look for and find trouble, strong social and religious conservatives are potentially very dangerous and capable of great evil. W is a social and religious conservative, and because we elected him president nearly a half million people died from war-related causes in Iraq. That's only the deaths from a totally unjustified war.

Unfortunately, conservative extremists have way too much power right now in both countries for safety. Most of the GOP candidates are social conservatives, some extreme. We must keep them from getting yet more power or else.

 

Herman4747

(1,825 posts)
83. If that is the case, is it too much to ask...
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 02:21 PM
Oct 2015

...for someone allegedly so very clever and sharp, to use the phrase "Iranian government" instead of "Iranians"?
You know, I daresay that at least some of the Iranian people with whom you and I sympathize with may well come to learn what Hillary said, and not reach the inference you find quite obvious.
By the way, for what it is worth, I am someone who remains believing that Hillary is our best shot at keeping the Republicans out of the Presidency.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
85. Yes, it was a mistake that did leave her open to misinterpretation and attack.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 05:55 PM
Oct 2015

Obviously, in both public AND private, our secretaries of states should ALWAYS be very specific when discussing 196 countries and many more regions -- "the government of Ecuador is asking..." Not "the Ecuadorans," which could be interpreted as an insult by...well, anyone who wanted to.

krkaufman

(13,399 posts)
94. more of the same... ?
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 07:32 PM
Oct 2015

Sure, that's obvious, but how is it any better? How soon before she's referring to an "Axis of Evil"?

Is it too much to ask that the prospective leader of the free world show some restraint and diplomacy, rather than the same old reflexive hate-mongering we've been getting from the Right for decades? With the Iranian nuclear deal just signed, are we supposed to cheer Hillary's undermining of the deal arranged by Obama & Kerry?

Similarly, it may have played well to many in the crowd, but I didn't think Hillary's citing "the Republicans" as her prime enemies was productive, for other Democrats in the coming election or for her own prospects of attracting moderates in the coming election.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
89. I thought she did fine up until then. Why couldn't she have said "the ayatollahs" or
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 07:05 AM
Oct 2015

"the government"? But Iranians? That's just disgusting.

https://photosiran.wordpress.com/2015/06/20/irans-exceptional-reaction-to-911-attacks-candlelit-vigils-for-the-victims-and-60k-soccer-fans-respected-a-minutes-silence-2/

“Iran’s sympathetic response to the American tragedy has been exceptional for a country under US economic siege for two decades. Only hours after the Sept. 11 attack, President Muhammad Khatami condemned it, as did Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Other officials have sent sympathetic messages, including one from the mayor of Tehran to the mayor of New York – the first public official contact between Iran and the US since the 1979 Iranian revolution. […]

More important, 60,000 spectators observed a minute of silence during a soccer match in Iran’s Azadi Stadium, and hundreds of young Iranians held a candle-lit vigil in Tehran.”

?w=207&h=300

krkaufman

(13,399 posts)
95. Enemies list...
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 07:35 PM
Oct 2015

Or just not mention Iran.

What was most telling, I thought, from Hillary's extensive enemies list from the debate, other than that she seemed really comfortable rattling off a quick list of enemies, was who she didn't mention... Wall Street.

bullwinkle428

(20,608 posts)
4. I'm Jewish, and had Iranian friends in college back in the 1980s.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 08:02 AM
Oct 2015

The debate comment was nearly as disturbing as Jim Webb's reference to the Vietnamese guy in the trunk of his car!

K&R.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
5. The Supreme Leader of Iran is an enemy to progressive values
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 08:22 AM
Oct 2015

The people of Iran, on the other hand, are people like any other people in any other country.

Progressives should oppose the Supreme Leader of Iran as much as one would oppose any unelected religious fundamentalist who is the head of a government.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
20. I was complaining about Israel once
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:25 AM
Oct 2015

when I was newly adult and flexing my political muscles. My brother stopped me and said, "Love the people, hate the government. Do this with all people." It was a good lesson in remembering the humanity around this world. I practice this mostly with Southern States...I need to be reminded that even though some of their leaders pass some weird shit, the people are not them. They are individuals. They deserve to be treated as such.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
32. Good point
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:11 AM
Oct 2015

And even more salient when the leaders are not even elected by the people.

But even when the leaders are elected by the people - they certainly don't reflect on all the people (such as in the Southern US).

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
51. It must hurt to see
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:05 AM
Oct 2015

some of the comments on this site against the south as a whole and letting those states sink into the abyss. On behalf of them, I extend my apologies and say we are all in this together and together we can create great things!

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
61. Hi again, Cascadia. No, 'cause I'm from California originally. :)
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:52 AM
Oct 2015

And, of course, the Pacific Northwest before that even.

I do wish those people could see a bunch of my neighbors at home. They can be really wonderful -- as long as they don't realize they're talking with a liberal. No, seriously, we've been "out" almost since we arrived and the conservative friends we've made can accept that just fine. Within reason. I would never repay their acceptance by trying to seduce their children away from the righteous path.

It really is a matter of principle and morality for many. Some friends are paying a fortune they really, really cannot afford (age-retired small farmers) for her health insurance through a private broker. I don't know how they're doing it. They won't purchase subsidized coverage through an exchange because it's against their principles. I felt obliged to tell her how much I pay, just so she'd know since they swallow Fox whole, but apologetically and only after assuring her that I really did respect their position.

And the others who can't forgive? Courteous nods and social smiles in passing. If none, I know that person's sure I'm one of Satan's demons. (No, I'm actually not joking, much.)

As for their general reputation outside the South, some don't deserve it but contribute to it anyway, and some are even worse. The whole region seems to be trapped in a kind of circular reasoning it's not aware of and has absolutely no interest in breaking out of. As for the Bible Belt influence, you know the old saying about religion bringing out both the good and bad in people. There's plenty of both on full view.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
36. Just as we should oppose war-mongering ultra-right leaders in Israel.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:34 AM
Oct 2015

Who pander to the fundamentalist idiots in order to retain power.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
46. Right - for the people. But Iran's government is quite progressive
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:50 AM
Oct 2015

in many ways, hardly surprising in a centralized theocratic republic -- even one so conservative. Iran is proof, in fact, that "progressive" does not mean liberal.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
23. Well,
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:30 AM
Oct 2015

Let's not pretend they've done absolutely nothing. They did attack our embassy and take hostages for over a year. They do finance hezbollah, hamas and islamic jihad who have attacked Americans (241 marines in Lebanon come immediately to mind). I have no beef with the Iranian people but to pretend they're actually in charge of anything is dishonest. The mullahs are in charge and any religious freaks, no matter the religion, are indeed my enemy.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
27. And that has zero to do
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:37 AM
Oct 2015

with Iran being peaceful little kittens spreading nothing but sunshine and unicorns but your deflection from my truthful post is noted.

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
28. This has everything to with our forever warring in the middle east and our constant siding
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:40 AM
Oct 2015

with Israel no matter what they do.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
40. Your charge was that Iran
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:39 AM
Oct 2015

has done absolutely nothing untoward in their entire history. That I proved your assertion was ignorant bullshit now has you whining about Israel. Are you sure you want to continue down this road?

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
44. And for some reason
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:45 AM
Oct 2015

felt you had to whine about Israel in the process? Hardly a convincing argument. Have any of our elected officials signed onto that odious bds cause yet? Has American opinion turned against Israel? Meanwhile, nobody trusts the mullahs in Iran except for the far left who nobody trusts with foreign policy - here is exhibit A as to why that is.

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
45. Which country is waging war on multiple continents and countries and has been fighting wars it seems
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:48 AM
Oct 2015

since it was created. You seem to be defending the MIC.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
54. Hey, you don't have to convince me
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:20 AM
Oct 2015

that we should let those in the middle east fight their own fucking battles. Not worth one American life. We used to need Saudi Arabia for oil but that isn't true any longer. Cut them loose and let the royals fight their own battles. Let the Sunni and Shia do the same. I'm hardly shilling for the MIC.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
63. Dear "leftynyc" -
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:53 AM
Oct 2015

Respectfully, I do not believe that you are aware of the sheer magnitude
of the US crimes against the people of Iran.

From 1953 to 1979 nearly every Iranian family experienced torture at
the hands of the US & Israeli trained & equipped SAVAK.

If some other country did that to us, we would turn it into a parking lot
at the very first opportunity.

The Iranians have actually been amazingly forgiving toward us . .

Veterans For Peace

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
66. I am most certainly aware
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:06 PM
Oct 2015

And for the same reasons I don't hate today's Germans even though 80 people in my family died in the camps while many more have been damaged in their souls, it's time for the Iranians to look forward. Or not. It's their choice.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
39. I have zero desire
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:37 AM
Oct 2015

to send any troops to Iran so I have no idea why you're making that ridiculous charge other than you don't like me pointing out that Iran is not the liberal paradise some here would choose to believe. Let's ask the gays they hang from cranes what they think.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
50. Your establishment heroes have conditioned you
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:03 AM
Oct 2015

to use civil rights issues as emotional fuel for the war machine. The same propaganda (though often true, and mixed in with some big lies) comes out whenever the empire wants to raze yet another country to the ground.

Establishment types wouldn't trust "far left" assessments (like Chomsky's) of the ME because they're incapable of escaping the empire's narratives. They belong to an anti-intellectual movement based on Infotainment (the lie machine) and high consumption (the reason to be content with the lies). In their minds, Iran did threaten to wipe Israel off the map, etc. etc.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
56. LOL
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:24 AM
Oct 2015

What a bunch of unmitigated bullshit. So we should forget those inconvenient FACTS about civil rights issues because they make you feel icky for trying to pretend that Iran is some peaceful paradise? When those same "intellectuals" go after middle eastern civil rights with the same zest they do for our own country (which is hardly ever), they may get some attention. Their hypocrisy is the reason they have no credibility. And Iran is still threatening to wipe Israel off the map - bullshit from those who whine about a misstranslation notwithstanding.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
59. LOL
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:39 AM
Oct 2015

I don't see you fulminating about abuses in India (caste system, just banned homosexuality) or Saudi Arabia or UAE or any number of convenient allies.

What is unmitigated bullshit is foreign policy that flouts international law because we have to assume Western moral superiority based on a history where even discussing Columbus is fraught with politically-enforced ignorance.

Talk about hypocrisy and bias. No one can compete.

"And Iran is still threatening to wipe Israel off the map"

Koo-koo-ka-choo!

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
68. Have you ever seen me
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:10 PM
Oct 2015

take up for India or Saudi Arabia or the UAE and any other country that has civil rights records that would make a thinking person vomit all day? The answer to that is a resounding NO. Would I, as a woman, a friend to the gay community and a Jew, rather live in Western country than any one of those you mentioned? You bet your sweet ass I would.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
74. I think for most people, living in a torn-up country
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:48 PM
Oct 2015

full of strife is a hell of its own kind, especially if you're a minority or a woman. These countries where we are toppling governments will suffer immensely for generations.

What's more, if I were a heterosexual woman I would prefer to live in Iran than Saudi Arabia.

The humanist adage about the greatest good for the greatest number of people must count for something. If that value is excluded, or pitted against the value of diversity, then something is wrong with the general perspective (obviously, it works both ways).

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
77. We had no business getting involved
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:56 PM
Oct 2015

in Iran in 1953 or in Iraq in 2003. You'll never see me defend our military adventures but I also don't ignore all the good that this country and its citizens do. We're often the first country to give aid when disaster strikes, Americans are incredibly generous people. There isn't a country on the planet that has zero history that can't be questioned and condemned (well, maybe Canada but I'm sure someone will be along to tell me I'm wrong about that and I probably am). But pretending like the US is the scourge of the universe is so incredibly counter productive, I just can't engage.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
79. Actually, in terms of aid the Europeans far outshine us
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 01:54 PM
Oct 2015

especially since most US aid deals have stipulations that earmark large chunks for military spending. Of course, the Europeans are connected to a vast continent (really continentS) and don't want waves of refugees pouring over their borders.

US aid usually embodies this thought:

"We like this crop of leaders. Here is a coupon you can spend with our military contractors so you can remain leaders."

As for pretending the US establishment is a "scourge": Most of the global South is starting to destabilize to such an extent that there is no end in sight to the refugee crises we're seeing now. This has happened while the US was the self-appointed "world policeman", what is called the "uni-polar world order". This is happening on our watch and it has a lot to do with our preference for arming religious extremists.

So, yes, the US establishment is a scourge. It has even turned our colleges into a debt-generating scam on a scale that makes educators in other countries drop their jaws in shock.


Its also worth mentioning that Hillary Clinton has consistently preferred intervention and escalation in the ME. She also is pro-intervention in Central America. Maybe you think that is a path to peace and prosperity, but I don't.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
81. Sorry
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 01:57 PM
Oct 2015

I can't engage with someone who blames all the world's ills on the US. It's not honest and I have no desire to waste my time.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
84. If the US wants its military fingers in all the pies, then
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 03:35 PM
Oct 2015

it has to accept commensurate responsibility AND blame for all of its power projection.

Establishment apologists lack all sense of proportion. That is dishonesty.

http://qz.com/374138/these-are-all-the-countries-where-the-us-has-a-military-presence/

It really ought to count the NATO countries foreign bases, too, as NATO countries usually cooperate with US military goals.

US foreign aid is only 0.19% of GNI, less than 1% of the federal budget: http://borgenproject.org/foreign-aid/
This page says the public perception is way out of line from the reality.

gregcrawford

(2,382 posts)
55. Context is everything.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:24 AM
Oct 2015

That was in no way a "deflection." Not only did the CIA - unarguably the most destructive agency in our government - oblige the British by deposing Mossedegh, they installed the murderous dictator, Shah Reza Pahlavi, to brutalize the populace into submission with the SAVAK, so that what was to become BP could steal oil that rightfully belonged to the Iranian people.

These events are not unrelated actions in a vacuum; the ascent of Khomeini and the attack on the embassy were a direct result of that despicable intervention and the decades of savagery that followed it. If the Allen Dulles and his bright, shiny new CIA had kept their blood-soaked snout out of it, it is likely none of this would have happened, and we would have had a steadfast ally in Iran, incidentally, the only Caucasian nation in a predominantly Arab region.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
57. So let's see
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:27 AM
Oct 2015

Iran still having a legitimate beef with what we did with the Shah is acceptable. But Israel should forget all about the holocaust and the reason they even have a country because people are tired of feeling guilty about it. That about cover the hypocrisy?

gregcrawford

(2,382 posts)
60. Ummm...
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:41 AM
Oct 2015

...when did Israel become part of this conversation? Now THAT'S deflection!

The response was not about Iran still having a legitimate beef, it was about the continuum that resulted in the current adversarial relationship between Iran and the U.S.

Oneironaut

(5,157 posts)
75. Iran is an religious extremist state.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:53 PM
Oct 2015

Given the opportunity, they would support a terrorist attack (including nuclear) for religious regions. The leadership is full of malevolent religious nut jobs.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
93. sometimes the hypocrisy dwarfs all
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 06:34 PM
Oct 2015

takes a mean and evil creature to overlook mean and evil creatures.

 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
11. Thank you for the sanity
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 08:54 AM
Oct 2015

Iran poses no threat to us. There is no credible proof that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, and even if it had one it still would not pose a threat to us. Like another commenter here, that was probably the creepiest moment of the night for me.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
12. If HRC wants to fight the Iranian enemy . .
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 08:59 AM
Oct 2015

How about if she sends daughter Chelsea in with the first wave of marines?

Good catch to call her out on this.

And she also needs to take ownership of her role in Honduras and Libya, both of which
are now SERIOUSLY messed up substantially due to US interventions.

Veterans For Peace

Dustlawyer

(10,474 posts)
13. We have done some truly awful crap to Iran, but our leaders never speak of it.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:07 AM
Oct 2015

If we actually support Iran the people will bring their government around. Let's try some of that instead of troops, weapons, and threats! Our supposed ally Saudi Arabia, their people hate us. They were the ones behind 9/11!

treestar

(82,354 posts)
15. I have Iranian friends too
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:13 AM
Oct 2015

I don't think that precludes their nation from doing wrong. Most of them live here anyway. And we not allowed back there for a long period of time for the sin of having lived here.

tritsofme

(16,670 posts)
18. The Iranian people certainly aren't my enemy, but the Ayatollahs certainly aren't my friends.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:21 AM
Oct 2015

They are a theocratic and genocidal regime.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
31. The government executes people for being gay. The Iranian government is the enemy of some Iranian
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:11 AM
Oct 2015

people. I am an ally to the Iranian people who are oppressed by their government. Are you?

Martin Eden

(12,525 posts)
47. Are you
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:51 AM
Oct 2015

... going to come down off your high horse?

I asked a straightforward question, and of course I condemn any persecution or execution of human beings based on sexual orientation or consensual acts between adults. I am no ally of the theocrats who ultimately rule Iran.

Whether or not what's happening in Iran is accurately termed "genocide" is a question I have not seen raised before. I assumed you were referring to threats against Israel.

Martin Eden

(12,525 posts)
19. The Iranians should be our natural allies ... much more than the Saudis
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:25 AM
Oct 2015

Iran is the Islamic Middle Eastern country with a history of democracy ... which we sabotaged in 1953 when we helped engineer a coup to ovetrthrow their democratically elected government, installing the repressive rule of the Shah.

The Islamic Revolution a quarter century later was an unintended consequence of our own actions, and yet Iran today still has a larger measure of democracy than the autocracy in Saudi Arabia ruled by the royal asses we kiss for oil and military bases. The Saudis impose a fundamentalist version of Islam on their people (especially women) and fund Wahabbi madrasahs throughout the Islamic world.

Iran has a very large population of young people who value personal liberty & democracy and are enthralled with Western culture & fashion. Time is on our side, unless we commit another atrocity against the Iranian people they will not forget or forgive.

Democratic leaders who are strong and smart would better serve the interests of our country and of the world if they stop using Iran as a bogeyman for justifying the excesses and disastrous policies that only serve the interests of the military industrial complex and of politicians who manipulate the American people through fear.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
24. Most people don't realize how the Shah
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:31 AM
Oct 2015

came into power. They may remember that the Shah fell from grace and the revolution in th 70s. The Middle East has had some outside influence for want of many things for the West. I had a history teacher who had us look at waterways and their importance through history. Why having Israel and a friendlies in governments in Egypt and Iran was pretty important economically. It gave me a wider perspective than just oil or religion as the only components to our interests.

Martin Eden

(12,525 posts)
25. Ignorance of history is a major impediment to progress in the United States
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:34 AM
Oct 2015

But rest assured, the Iranian people and many throughout the world (especially the Middle East) know how the Shah came to power.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
42. So much this, Iran would have been an entirely different nation now.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:41 AM
Oct 2015

A secular socialist democracy is my guess, but oil companies find it easier to use our military to install dictators for them.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
52. The direction they were possibly heading before the coup, my best guess.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:10 AM
Oct 2015

Nationalizing oil was the first step.

Conjecture, certainly, but not without some basis.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
65. They might have been successful anyway
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:02 PM
Oct 2015

There were some pretty harsh restrictions being imposed by the government prior to the coup and a return to Islamic values was an appeal that was growing throughout the region.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
73. Of course not
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:33 PM
Oct 2015

I was responding to the poster who said that they thought it was likely Iran would have had a secular socialist democracy had it not been for the coup.

I think that it is equally likely that they would have had an Islamic republic similar to what they have today.

The Islamic revolution was already brewing before there was a coup and there was general dissatisfaction with the government at that time coming from several different quarters, independent of US/UK intervention.

And there was also a general Islamic awakening/revival that was growing throughout the region.

Dem2

(8,164 posts)
22. The Iranian people are very pro-western on average I think
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:29 AM
Oct 2015

It's their 'government' that's shit. It's similar to a situation where right-wing religious nutcases took over the US government and wouldn't allow the majority to assert itself in elections.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
76. Iran may never be 'aligned' to the West
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:56 PM
Oct 2015

integrated economically or otherwise, without having some puppet government installed.

The population likes western things and ideas, but they also know the western establishment is biased against them. The western heavies prefer to use Sunnis, who are more numerous than Shias and also have a theological bent that's conducive to imperialism.

Rafale

(291 posts)
29. But but
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 09:41 AM
Oct 2015

We need to steal their oil, right? Or maybe just control it to better control the global market supply?

Follow the money. Guess who's contributing to $ec Clinton'$ campaign.

canoeist52

(2,282 posts)
30. And neither are the 55 million Americans who are registered Republicans, Hillary.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:05 AM
Oct 2015

My enemy is unregulated greed which is on a path to killing life on earth, as we know it.

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
33. It was a bizarre response from the candidates who said Iran our biggest threat
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:28 AM
Oct 2015

For a second there I thought I was watching the Republican debates again (I watched that circus...I'm the one!). The good news is that only lasted a few seconds and the rest of the debate was insightful.

MasonDreams

(754 posts)
53. I sure hope we don't invade Iran, just cause the Saudis want us to, or just cause the Isrealis want
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 11:20 AM
Oct 2015

us to, or just cause the military industrial complex wants us to, or just cause the oil industry wants us to, or just cause the republicans want us to, or just cause some folks, who like to blame their problems on others, want to. It was 120F in Iraq this past summer, let us please please invade Antarctica!!! Farmland for the Future!!!

Report1212

(661 posts)
70. I know a lot of Iranian Americans
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:13 PM
Oct 2015

Who oppose Iran's form of government but were pissed off at Hillary's comment. We are trying to get more reforms, not demonize them

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
72. Agreed. Nor do I desire to piss off any group who disagrees with me.
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:16 PM
Oct 2015

You never know what common ground you can find if you treat others with respect, even, if not especially, if they don't.

karynnj

(59,335 posts)
82. What I don't get is that she says this AND claims a hefty share of the credit for the Iran deal
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 02:15 PM
Oct 2015

Ask yourself this, "Would Obama's better second term Secretary of State have listed "the Iranians" as the people he is proudest of calling him an enemy?" Not only did she fail to single out ONE group, but many conflict with other claims of her team. (ie "Republicans" when she claims that she can work better with Republicans than Bernie.) How do you win over any Republicans disenchanted with whomever is their choice if you are on the record as proudest that "Republicans" don't like you?

jfern

(5,204 posts)
88. Hillary voted to allow the Bush administration to go to war with Iran
Thu Oct 15, 2015, 10:07 PM
Oct 2015

This was 5 years after she voted to allow them to go to war with Iraq. Hillary can not be trusted on this issue, and is completely unfit for the Presidency.

tritsofme

(16,670 posts)
90. This is actually a bullshit lie.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 12:31 PM
Oct 2015

Not surprised people are still pushing it though.

Assuming you are referring to Kyl-Lieberman, it had as much legal significance as the Senate voting to congratulate the National Spelling Bee champion.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
91. I suppose you're going to argue that the Iraq war resolution didn't matter either?
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 04:38 PM
Oct 2015

You're just apologizing for warmongering.

tritsofme

(16,670 posts)
92. No, the 2002 AUMF is a public law. The other is a sense of the Senate resolution,
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 06:22 PM
Oct 2015

Containing no force of law. As I said, similar to the Senate congratulating the National Spelling Bee Award winner. No reason to spread lies.

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