Third Way Progressives, Screwing the Plebs

[bravenak]

Third way Progressive Democrats, Not Awesome

Are you third way on racial and social justice? Do you find yourself bargaining with the social freedom and equality of Blacks, Women, LGBTs, or any other marginalized group in favor of your own economic security and upward mobility? Do you place economic justice above social and racial justice? Do you say with your mouth that you care about it all but only ever focus on the economic side of things?

If you answered 'Yes' to these questions, congratulations, you are a Third Way Democrat on social justice. Your position on social justice places you to the right of most democrats in many ways. As economic equality cannot be achieved with the oppressive structural racism and sexism, your position is that your economic primacy is more important than achieving fairness for all. You are willing to allow the oppressed and downtrodden to continue living in a disaster zone, quietly ignored, as you promise them dreams of a few bucks for themselves and a lotta bucks for yourself if only they are not divisive. Divisive to third way social justice democrats means bringing up the unfairness inherent in the system and the fact that they would benefit much more than you from 'economic equality'.

What is economic equality that lacks fairness and equal distribution? It is called 'The Status Quo'. So, if you find yourself calling black folks race baiters or naggers or SS victims and women loud and obnoxious for bringing up sexism, you are a right wing third way democrat.

So, this primary season, please don't be a third way anti human selfish third way democrat, be a progressive in truth, move left! Our future depends on righting the wrongs of Ronald Reagan and all of the people who voted for him and destroyed this nation!!!

[randys1]

1. Holy Shits Batman!

This was brilliant

As economic equality cannot be achieved with the oppressive structural racism and sexism, your position is that your economic primacy is more important than achieving fairness for all.

I officially adopt you, you nagger you.

[bravenak]

3. Hey Dad!! Send money for 'books'!!

[randys1]

5. OK, I am good for a book or two.

[bravenak]

6. Love you

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Have you been talking toBabyGirl 1SBM? ...

I get that, exact, call every Tuesday!

[bravenak]

14. The kids in my class were planning to call their parents for money.

They are so cute!!! They wanna go to the museum of all places and hang out afterwards.

[leftofcool]

25. See what happens when you want your baby girl to go to college?

She wants money for books. Go figure! Been there done that!

[Bread and Circus]

30. What is a nagger?

Nevermind, I think I can tell what it means from the context of the OP.

Nagger = complainer? I think maybe? Someone who nags?

[randys1]

33. A white person called a Black person a "race nagger" on DU, because the Black person

was discussing racism in America.

So since then we refer to certain white folks here at DU with that term...or in my case it was joking with an African American

[Boudica the Lyoness]

438. How do you know they were white?

And how did you know the other person was black?

Did we run a DNA?

How much African DNA does it take these days to be of ONLY African desent? And how much European DNA does it take to be white? Can't wait to hear your answer so I can sort my family out by 'race'. According to some thought here they will treated different according to their 'race'.

Actually we always call ourselves part of the human RACE in our family. We're more evolved I guess. Try it some time, you may sleep better at night.

[jberryhill]

193. It is a punchline of a premise to a South Park episode

And apparently some people think it is "clever".

[djean111]

2. No one is saying you are wrong, you are most certainly correct.

Some of us just do not think Hillary is going to get those things done.

That does not mean we don't think those things should be done.

[bravenak]

4. Thank you

[DisgustipatedinCA]

229. To be clear, I just stated that her argument was wrong.

And it is. She says those who want economic equality are supporting the status quo. That's not a true statement, and it's the basis of the bunk OP. It's yet another iteration of someone on the center telling people to her left that they're actually to her right. I'm not having any of it.

[Autumn]

7. If St Ronnie ever runs again I certainly would never vote for him.

The question I have is who will look out for the social freedom and equality of Blacks, Women, LGBTs, or any other marginalized group and advance social and racial justice? No one who is running will do it all so I can only vote for the one with a record that I trust. Welcome back.

[bravenak]

11. I hate Ronnie more than any other president in living memory.

It bees like that sometimes.

Hey!! Who will look out for us? The same who has always been doing it, OURSELVES. Hillary is lackluster but she hires us for her staff and positions of power. She is great on women and children issues, I am woman and I have children...

Bernie... Cannot see how having him would help me at all. I can never get a straight answer on how he would get ANYTHING done, except vague answers of 'millions in the streets'. Not happnin.
He also is third way on social justice and believes social equality will come through econimic equality and failed to gain full understanding of how we are shut out and limited in the economic culture, refused jobs, our prison populations means our fair share will not be as big as YOUR fair share. The white share will always be fairer. Just like Animal Farm. Animals like me are less than animals like you therefore DESERVE and RECIEVE less, regardless of talent or skill. Bernie is to the right of me on both economic and social justice because of his misunderstandings on the significance of race when discussing economics.

People seem to love fdr too but he ALSO was a right wing thrid wayer on race and social justice in trading off the economic well being of black domestics and black veterans of the millitary from the New Deal. We have been done wrong and Bernie is similar to fdr imo.

[Autumn]

18. I am a Latina woman and I have children and Grandchildren. Hillary does nothing for me.

No one in my circle will ever be hired as a member of her staff so for me she's not someone I am vested in at all. I have no trust in her.

[bravenak]

22. I have no trust in anybody running. No reason to.

[Autumn]

26. As a Latina and experiencing it first hand I feel that

economic and social inequality are intertwined. The one I would like to see running isn't going to run so I will happily vote for the one out of the two who best looks out for my interests and that I can trust to be consistent. That's all there is to do.

[bravenak]

29. They are interwined.

But as a black I know my descendants will never get to BE white one day and assimilate. The same thing FDR pulled on us negroes will happen again unless we rid ourselves of the attitude that equality for blacks is a bargaining chip.

[Autumn]

34. All rights are being used as a bargaining chip and they will be used until we change the system.

I don't like it, it pisses me off. I see Hispanics selling us out, politicians playing games with women's and children's lives and the lives of our military men and women and all we can do is fight it. One step at a time.

[bravenak]

42. Ours have been used most and we are THE MOST TIRED OF IT.

Right? We have been done wrong every step of the way. By all!!! Even Bernie voted for the crime bill that incarcerated so many of my people. He traded us too and used us as a bargaining chip in the 90s, why should we trust him now? Hillary didn't have a vote to screw us with. She would have, but she didn't. He DID, and he wasn't married to Bill. He chose to throw us under the bus.

[Autumn]

82. For profit prisons became the norm under the War on Drugs by the Reagan administration.

They have grown and grown. Why have democrats not put an end to them? In 1994 Hillary was saying we needed need more prisons, more and tougher prison sentences For profit prisons are big business and big campaign donors. Lobbyists for two major prison companies are serving as top fundraisers for Hillary. Do you honestly believe that she's going to jeopardize those funds? There's an old saying, You dance with the one who brung ya. They brought her to the dance. Good luck with Hillary.

[bravenak]

85. Yes. I hate all reagan voters and do not forgive them.

Hillary has money. She can get more. Not worried that she has need to pad her pockets at my expense. And she is to the left of him on social justice and women's rights.

[Autumn]

90. Well I have absolutely have no problem voting for Bernie.

I'm not worried at all that he will "pad his pockets at my expense". Nor will he sell out my needs for campaign contributions. Have a nice evening.

[bravenak]

92. I'm glad.

Have a good one!

[bvar22]

57. You are WAY off on FDR.

I would like to direct you to the State of the Union address in 1944:

FDR Economic Bill of Rights

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be[font size=3] established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font][/font][/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice [font size=3]for all our citizens.[/font]

[/font][/font][p/font]

THIS is the FIRST mention by a president of either party to make Racial Equality
a platform issue and goal for the Democratic Party.

I challenge YOU to post an official statement making Racial Equality a goal for the Democratic Party that pre-dates FDR's 1944 State of the Union address.


FDR also approved the creation of a squadron of Black Fighter Pilots (Tuskegee Airmen).
The pilots of this squadron went to Officers Training, and all of them were made OFFICERS. While the squadron was initially segregated , this was the FIRST TIME Black Americans had the opportunity to become OFFICERS in the US Military.
They had to be saluted, and called "Sir".
They were also provided with the latest, brand new, state of the Art fighter planes,
and were very successful, demonstrating intelligence, courage, and competence.
This was a HUGE step forward, and enabled Truman to later desegregate the US Military.
All on FDR's watch.


It is logically impossible to resolve your statements with actual HISTORY.

Please don't overlook my challenge/dare for you to produce an earlier statement of Racial Equality as a goal for the Democratic Party.

[bravenak]

69. Why should I care about rhetoric?

He left many of us Out of the new deal. And refused to try to pass anti lynching legislation.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n4/v70n4p49.html

[bvar22]

96. I'm NOT arguing "rhetoric",

I have posted documented HISTORY.

FDR was a direct link in the chain.
From there, Truman picked up the baton and desegregated the entire military,
and LBJ picked up the baton and passed the Civil Rights Act of1964.
Direct Connections.

I see you dodged my challenge.
I expected that from you because I have read your other posts.

I challenge YOU to post an official statement from the Democratic Party making Racial Equality a goal for the Democratic Party that pre-dates FDR's 1944 State of the Union address.

Until YOU respond to my challenge,
I have no use for your distortions and right wing innuendo.
Put up...or shut up.

[bravenak]

97. I posted a link showing my point. He left us out. I proved my point.

[TheKentuckian]

109. Not really. My grandfather got veterans benefits, he got Social Security, he worked for decades at

Naval Ordinance, he got a pension that was way more than the Social Security.
This is a black man born in the 19th Century I'm talking about and a life long admirer of FDR.

All that came out of the New Deal. Time to stop pretending every black person was an ag worker or a domestic servant in order to tear at liberalism to prop up the shitty economic royalists.

[bravenak]

112. My grandmother was a domestic. A maid. She was lived out and lived in poverty.

[TheKentuckian]

120. I'm sorry that was her and many people's lot to be hosed but it is not the whole picture.

The Turd Way and it's precursors weren't the answer and they have no cure now or tomorrow either.

[bravenak]

123. I know. I don't get all hero worshippy of any politician. Even Obama. He can handle criticism.

There are two third ways, left on SJ right on EJ (clinton), left on EJ and right on SJ (Sanders). Both need to move left, towards ME.

[TheKentuckian]

199. I think you are way, way wrong on Sanders. His record doesn't even hint at such

nor does his life over decades.

Has his emphasis been on economics? Sure and not unreasonable in context since we are 35 or 40 years deep in an era where the entire establishment be it both parties, churches, business of course, the media ALL of it have gone with the bogus gospels of W.I.N, deregulation, trickle down, free trade, and all of the nonsense of St. Ronnie are fully embraced fucking SOMEBODY needed to before a whole area of truth and justice was blotted from the face of the nation but there is no honest argument of disregard much less opposition of social issues from Sanders.

It is a dishonest and to be honest a nonsensical smear because the truth is the man is more often than not ahead of the curve. There is absolutely no equivalence in the economic (and military and law enforcement and civil liberties and environmental stewardship and the drug war among other things that aren't just economics or even tangential to them) positions of the DLC/Turd Way and Sanders' record on almost any "social issue" you have.

What in the world are these "Third Way" social positions Bernie Sanders holds and has spent his career advancing? He voted de-funding ACORN, I think that is a strong telltale indicator that this might be somebody on the right side of social policy when a lot a lot that have a lot more innocence assumed especially when in truth the argument is almost always focus not policy when others are dicey on both totally cut and run on a huge self inflicted wound to the Democratic Party, another kneecapping of the black community's ability to participate and have even a theoretical opportunity to have representation and impact on the process, and to even the concept of democracy in general.

Just one more recent important example of a lifetime of being on the right side of justice.

I find the most common rationale for the affinity for the Turd Way scammers to not only be far from compelling but also scary and wrong-headed because the reaction to these so called "connections to the community" should be to close the shutters, get the kids in the house, and lock the door because they come to glad hand the low level pols and big time preachers in order to show us the great respect of coming through to sell some throat cutting poison pill scam that is going to, on the whole, kick our ass the worse like that piece of shit crime bill, welfare deform, and the even more dangerous education deform.

Just because someone comes to smile in your face personally when they fuck you doesn't mean they respect you and it sure doesn't change that there is some fucking going on.

My vote in the black community is that the Turd Way comes with the jive and con they be respected and trusted no more than a touring carnival and more like the traveling snake oil salesman at very best.

That explanation is like far too little butter spread over way too much bread for me. Well...more like lite margarine but you get the point.

If one is a big gun controller which is not reflective of my black associates, friends, and family we own at a fair clip higher than the white folks though they end up with more because there are more of them then you have some concerns though I'd say well overstated since he is still probably more restrictive than the American median.

Other than that for those that are focused there, the argument that Sanders hasn't been upper tier on most issues the most consistently is very weak, seemingly willfully misleading, and not backed up by word or deed.

The problem isn't enmity or indifference to social policy it is about the spotlight on economics, civil liberties, and the environment but especially the economics that appear to be the problem. I just see no coherent policy content to the critique to think otherwise and no good can come of it.
Feathering the nest and ceding all power to the vulture class isn't helping women, black, brown, children, and sure as fuck not poor people who are disproportionately likely to be the previously mentioned groups it is completely irrational as far as I can discern.

[Scuba]

370. What caused you to conclude Bernie is "right" on social justice?

[bvar22]

388. Way off again.

There is only ONE 3rd Way...and it is the Republican Lites and Democratic War Mongers, Republican Enablers, and protectors of Wall Street. Thy are actually reborn Reagan Trickle Downers who are afraid to raise taxes on the very Wealthy,
OR help the people at the bottom.

It is absurd to even attempt to hang the "3rd Way label" on anybody from the Progressive Caucus. The "3rd Way" label is OWNED by the Clintons and their machine.

"3rd Way" is a Republican-Lite organization specifically designed and funded to help conservative Democrats. It is foolish to try to stick that label on Liberal Democrats.

The DLC morphed into the 3rd Way when the name "DLC" picked up too many negatives,
but it is the same people who have been selling off the Common Wealth, privatizing everything in sight, destroying our Public Schools and stealing their money, support foreign WARS and bloated defense budgets, and torpedoing things that would help the Working Class like The Public Option.


I am uncertain if you motive is to intentionally distort what the 3rd Way really is,
and a failed attempt to tarnish good Liberal Democrats with this odious label....
or just a knowledge deficit of the history of the Democratic Party.


Do you know that the "3rd" way is an official organization that grew out of the DLC
which was partially funded by the Koch Brothers who had two voting members on the Executive Council of the DLC?

[bravenak]

391. No. I flipped the term and bastardized it just like some from the 'far left' have done

by labeling anything they do not like as 'third way'. As mine is simply the reverse of the original intended meaning, I see no reason why my bastardized entry into the American Lexicon is any less valid than yours. As a writer, I use words and make associations between ideas. I have issue with those left on economics but right on social justice, just as much as you have for those right on economics left on social justice. To me they are fake progressives who are simply interesed in their own econimic equality and care not that like animal farm, some animals are more equal than others.

Now that you understand that I am perfectly able to provide my own colloquial usage of the word, and that I will not be swayed by social justice rightists into changing my definition, you can relax and go search for questionable posts from your own side, like the stockholm syndrome posts and such.

[bvar22]

392. I see.

You didn't like reality,
so you replaced it with stuff you made up.
There IS only ONE 3rd Way, and to claim anything else is a distortion of reality.
I am not surprised that you would post something with no foundation in reality.

just saying....

[bravenak]

394. Oh no!!! My reality was ignored as I am black.

So I brought it to your attention. You can thank me later.

[cui bono]

396. Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in this thread

[Chitown Kev]

158. 1) The record was mixed

That so much of recent liberal and left discussion of the New Deal has been charged by the imperatives of current political debates has given it an unfortunate either/or quality. In reality, the New Deal was both racially discriminatory and a boon to many black Americans. Blacks benefited relatively less than whites from many social policy initiatives. Worse, postwar urban renewal–one of the main conduits of federal resources to the local level–actively intensified racial disadvantage as blacks and Puerto Ricans were displaced for federally supported redevelopment at a rate more than 500 percent greater than their share of the national population. But benefiting relatively less does not mean not benefiting. The Social Security exclusions were overturned, and black people did participate in the WPA, Federal Writers’ Project, CCC and other classic New Deal initiatives, as well as federal income relief. Moreover, the National Labor Relations Act facilitated the Congress of Industrial Organizations’ efforts, from which blacks also benefited substantially. Black Americans’ emergence as a significant constituency in the Democratic electoral coalition helped to alter the party’s center of gravity and was one of the factors–as was black presence in the union movement–contributing to the success of the postwar civil rights insurgency.

http://www.thenation.com/article/race-and-new-deal-coalition/

And even the biggest FDR defenders acknowledge that it was a very mixed record..

FDR's Four Freedoms speech did not even allude to racial equality, even though some black activists took up that challenge.

Remember: National Recovery Act (Administration) = Negro Removal Act

This is not a subject you want to get into a debate with ME about.

[bvar22]

184. His Four Freedoms may have not addressed this issue,

but his State of the Union Address in 1944 certainly DID enshrine Racial Equality and equal participation and opportunity in the Economic Rights of the New Deal for the first time in the history of the Democratic Party.

[Chitown Kev]

190. That didn't come until 1948

and the wonderful speech by Hubert Humphrey at Democratic Convention.

I'm looking at and reading the speech right now. For example

Several alleged reasons have prevented the enactment of legislation which would preserve for our soldiers and sailors and marines the fundamental prerogative of citizenship—the right to vote. No amount of legalistic argument can becloud this issue in the eyes of these ten million American citizens. Surely the signers of the Constitution did not intend a document which, even in wartime, would be construed to take away the franchise of any of those who are fighting to preserve the Constitution itself.

Our soldiers and sailors and marines know that the overwhelming majority of them will be deprived of the opportunity to vote, if the voting machinery is left exclusively to the States under existing State laws—and that there is no likelihood of these laws being changed in time to enable them to vote at the next election. The Army and Navy have reported that it will be impossible effectively to administer forty-eight different soldier voting laws. It is the duty of the Congress to remove this unjustifiable discrimination against the men and women in our armed forces- and to do it as quickly as possible.

FDR was not talking about black people and poll taxes right there. He wasn't even talking about black soldiers (esp. ones that were based and trained in the South).

If FDR's speech had done that, then Thomas Dewey and the Republicans would not have been so strong at enshrining racial equality (or at least what it meant at that time) in the 1944 Republican platform.

[jwirr]

136. As to being left out of the New Deal I am one of the people

who has been stating the the New Deal never reached either the ghettos or the reservations. But I don't think that was the intention of FDR or the New Deal as it was passed.

Most of the plans were activated at the state level and there is where it faltered and stopped short of those who needed it the worst. All people were supposed to have been included according to the bill but that is not how the bigots further down the line saw it. It also did not reach a lot of rural areas because in all of these areas the local people, especially the rich white leaders did not want it. Just like they do not want it now.

What was written was never followed threw on.

[bravenak]

138. I agree.

The nostalgia for that time burns my britches.

[Doctor_J]

189. fdr bashing has become standard practice for Clinton supporters on

democratic underground. A prime reason why the party is a shell of its former self.

[Chitown Kev]

192. Who's bashing FDR?

Even the Roosevelt Institute acknowledges it: moreover they honor the reason why:

As the leader of a political party that was heavily represented in Congress by racist Southern Democrats who supported segregation and even opposed the adoption of a federal anti-lynching law as an infringement of state’s rights, FDR had to choose his battles carefully and at times appears timorous in the face of racial injustice-especially when viewed from today. But this is the President who appointed a far greater number of blacks to positions of responsibility within his government than any of his predecessors, so much so in fact that this group became known as the “Black Cabinet” or “Black Brain Trust” in the press. FDR was also the first president to appoint an African American as a federal judge; to promote a black man to the rank of Brigadier General in the Army; and, incredible as it might seem, the first president to publicly call lynching murder — “a vile form of collective murder”-which W.E B. Dubois applauded as something that sadly was long overdue. Overall FDR’s administration tripled the number of Africa Americans working for the federal government, including thousands of black engineers, architects, lawyers, librarians, office managers, and other professionals, and under his leadership, and with the strong support of Eleanor Roosevelt, the Democrats included the first specific African American plank in the party platform at the 1936 convention.

The New Deal was not perfect. It could not and did not eliminate segregation, or the pernicious discrimination in employment, wages, and working condition that plagued so many African Americans during the difficult years of the 1930s. Moreover, in spite of the best efforts of federal officials like Harry Hopkins to forbid discriminatory practices among neighborhood relief agencies, such practices often continued at the local level, especially in the South. But in spite of these and other shortcomings, the willingness of the Roosevelt Administration to recognize the existence of a racial problem in American and to take steps at the federal level to ameliorate that problem, was, as Sitkoff notes, unprecedented. It made it clear that the federal government had a responsibility to ensure the civil rights of all Americans were protected; rendered civil rights a core part of the liberal agenda; and inspired a generation of African American leaders to continue to pressure not only the federal government, but also the federal courts, to strike down the laws that underpinned the widespread racial injustice that African Americans had endured since the promise of reconstruction.

http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/new-roosevelt/african-americans-and-new-deal-look-back-history

I repeat: FDR had a mixed record when it came to African American civil rights and I'm not even a Clinton supporter (in spite of her performance today, which I applaud)

[Doctor_J]

194. never mind. I should have trashed this thread.

The op has returned to du primarily to call Sen Sanders and his supporters racist. Time to update my ignore list.

[Chitown Kev]

196. As you wish...

I don't think that the OP even brought FDR up though, although I think that some white progressives might want to look a little more closely at his record

Among the latter was a cafeteria worker named James Thompson. This young man wrote a letter to the Pittsburgh Courier, troubled by the fact that he might be called upon to defend a nation in which he was treated like a second-class citizen. He suggested that African Americans espouse a 'double V' campaign. The symbol stood for victory at war over enemies 'from without,' and victory at home against the enemy of prejudice 'from within.' When other readers wrote to congratulate Thompson on his idea, the Courier launched a huge publicity campaign, complete with lapel pins and stickers, 'double V' hair styles and songs.

The campaign kept awareness of the injustices of segregation alive during the war. It also brought attention to Jim Crow-style segregation in the armed forces. The troops themselves were segregated, but black outfits were assigned white commanding officers. Even the military's blood supply for the wounded was segregated by race. White soldiers brutalized black soldiers, and race riots took place in camps where troops of both races resided. The military tried to suppress word of these events, with partial success; only the black press reported discrimination and discord within the troops.

Such controversial reporting, coupled with the double V campaign and the new international mobility and visibility of the few black war correspondents, made those in various branches of the government nervous. The power of the black press to influence public opinion and excite its readers never seemed more threatening. Concerned that the black press would actually discourage its readers from supporting the war (it didn't), the military banned black newspapers from its libraries. It confiscated black papers from newsboys, and burned the papers to keep them out of the hands of black soldiers.

J. Edgar Hoover saw the double V campaign as an act of sedition. With President Franklin D. Roosevelt's approval, he sought to indict black publishers for treason. Hearing of Hoover's intentions, John Sengstacke, who had replaced Robert S. Abbott as publisher of the Chicago Defender, insisted on meeting with Attorney General Francis Biddle. Sengstacke convinced Biddle that it was the black press's duty to print the truth, and that African Americans only sought their due rights and privileges as citizens. Biddle agreed to block the indictments so long as the black press did not escalate its criticism of the war. Without the cooperation of the Attorney General's office, Hoover's plan was foiled.

http://www.pbs.org/blackpress/educate_event/treason.html

[Boudica the Lyoness]

439. WHAT?

Be white? Speaking from experience a persons descendants can be of a different 'race'.
Assimilate? What kind of hellish world are you living in? It's not the one any of my family members are living in.

[JRLeft]

216. No politician can make major changes on his/her own, Bernie

wants a political revolution. He the voting block to pressure congress. This is how you get things done.

[ieoeja]

408. "Hillary is lackluster but she hires us for her staff and positions of power."

[bravenak]

410. Good quote? I loved her at the hearing though. She rose in my estimation.

[Chitown Kev]

146. Based on the records of the Democratic candidates

I don't trust any of them, quite frankly...which will mean that no matter who the nominee is, their feet needs to be kept to the fire.

[bravenak]

151. +1

[Autumn]

157. Yeah. Holding their feet to the fire has worked so well in the past n/t

[AOR]

183. Keeping the feet of "bougeois politicians to the fire"...

is a laughable premise of political impotence.

[Chitown Kev]

203. It worked (in large part)

with Obama and LGBT's.

BUt...LGBT's and LGBT organizations (even the odious Human Rights Campaign) did not focus solely on the President either.

[AOR]

223. Yes LGBT rights were an important victory...

this does not change the fact that many in the LGBT community are living in abject poverty under the economic exploitation of capitalist social relations. The bourgeois politicians will walk all day over a bed of hot coals before that is addressed.

[Chitown Kev]

228. That's very true

but don't think that equality in those specific realms don't have an economic impact for many LGBT's...they do...

[AOR]

234. Economic impact under capitalist social relations amounts to crumbs....

and the ability to take part in the bourgeois institutions and social stratification of the capitalist system. Hardly anything that could be considered a victory for the whole of any "minority" community.

[jeff47]

379. How did it work?

The recent major victories on LGBT rights were won in the courts. Obama was not involved.

[stonecutter357]

8. K&R!

[bravenak]

23. Thank you!!!

[marym625]

10. Exactly why I hate third-way bullshit

And that's exactly what one candidate, Hillary Clinton, is, a third-wayer. Corporate Socialism is good. Human socialism, bad. Equality only when it's politically convenient.

[bravenak]

12. I see bernie as third way on race.

[marym625]

16. Sorry, then you're not listening to him.

And Clinton just keeps proving she doesn't care. Taking money from the privatized prison corporations, wall street, big pharm, besides her words and her votes she has never said were bad or wrong, are some of the things that are terrible for minorities. Especially, people of color.

And I trust Black Lives Matter on their take, "Hillary doesn't get it. Bernie does."

We'll see more at the forum coming up.

[bravenak]

20. I have been listening to him.

For some they hear the economic message and it fires them up. Not me. I keep listening. Looking for the place where they fully understand my pov. He does not understand me. Not yet.

My listening to him is not the problem, it is his job to hear me and to pay attention. Not once has he told his supporter to lay off of folks resembling me. It is stressful to have hundreds of his army thousands even harassing my fellow blacks in various ways. He has been asked to comment on the issues between his fans and black americans and he has DECLINED to discuss it. Not important to him. The harassment of us is NOT important enough to discuss. Having been myself harassed by a self described bernie fan, this issue of him addressing issues that come up in a timely fashion is make or break. How does he respond to issues or harassment directed at african americans by his own base? He does not. That is indicative of a third ways stance or behaviour.

[sheshe2]

27. Correct~

My listening to him is not the problem, it is his job to hear me and to pay attention. Not once has he told his supporter to lay off of folks resembling me.

[marym625]

31. what? he has very much so discussed it.

We're not getting anywhere. This, in posts, is useless.

And a few people being dicks is hardly reason for him, or anyone, to tell all their supporters to stop it. Let me know when any candidate calls out shitty supporters, please. Because I see many supporters, of many candidates, being dicks.

[bravenak]

35. He has not discussed the harassment. I have no idea why you think he has. He declined.

The harassment BY His Fans is a no go issue. Everywhere that is not DU has discussed it.

[cui bono]

58. You cannot blame a candidate for what some people who support them do.

If I blamed Hillary for how her supporters behave, especially those who participate over in the Clinton Cave, I would seriously lose every single little iota of respect I have for her now and I would resent her and think she is the most hate-filled person I've ever seen.

But I don't think that about her. She can't control what her supporters do.

Now, truth be told, we know you have posted a smear piece on Sanders over on the Clinton Cave. It was discussed here when it was revealed. You have decided to hate Sanders for whatever reason and I think you are just trying to rationalize it by trying to blame him for a few of his supporters' actions. And all the while continuing to try to paint him and his supporters as not being for social justice. I guess nothing changed during your time out except you probably fueled the fire by hanging out over at CC.

[bravenak]

65. I damn sure can!! Why ever not? They are doing it in his name and pretending nothing happened!

I can blame the candidate for the environment in their grassroots.

Look at the tea party!! Some of them were not racist!! Many were not racist!! But if we found one sign with an Obama witch doctor poster we labeled them as RACIST!! Because they let those folks run wild and created an environment that felt racist. Should I have ignored the racist supporters of the tea party and just cared about the candidates? No! And I won't give Bernie that consideration.
After all, he voted for the crime bill that incarcerated millions of BLACKS!! How can I ever trust him again after he threw us under the bus?? It's hard to get over somebody trading you off and selling you and your people, who were ALREADY OPPRESSED to the Prison Industrial Complex!!!!!!

My feelings for Sanders are directly related to his and his supporters third way stance on social and economic justice and the number of race baiters and race naggers and SS victims I and my friends have been called. The bombardment of aa with negative posts, the harassment of Goldie Taylor, the Angry Black Lady, Elon James White, Rep John Lewis, and thousands of black americans on the internet.

I think instead of people worrying about what I post and where, they should start weeding the imposters and bad actors out of their own ranks, and things will improve. But when we have a poster yesterday calling me a shit eater (self described sanders fan, none of his other fans said anything nor do they usually check their own members since they are so busy checking us and 'correcting' people on sanders record), I do not see tolerance ever coming from bernie sander's grassroots towards full social justice or embracing black americans and their ideas instead of paternalistically deciding they know what black people need, cause they have a black friend or kid or husband so they fully get the black experience better than we do.

[cui bono]

73. Not the same thing at all. The Tea Party is not a person, it is a group.

As to your outrage about the vote you mentioned, when did that occur? While you were posting as a Bernie supporter? Before that?

Bernie nor his supporters as a whole are absolutely for social justice. You can continue to try to paint both as racially tone deaf or unaware or even racists and white supremacists, but it's just wrong. It's an old talking point that has already failed.

And then the hypocrisy, there it is. So you carry all this anger and hatred because of what people on the internet are posting and yet no one is supposed to worry about what you are posting? Really? Even when it is from a racist posted just to smear Sanders?

Get over yourself.

[bravenak]

75. You seem much more angry than I am.

[cui bono]

77. But I'm not.

As evidenced by my not posting angry rants and posting smear mongering pieces written by racists on sites that were created to spew hate at others and their chosen candidate.

So when was that vote you are so outraged about?

[bravenak]

81. Who this racist?

Is this about calling blacks 'race naggers' or 'race baiters' or saying they have stockholm syndrome? Yes that kinda trash almost made me stay away. I wish people would stop deflecting their own racism onto the black population and pretending that blacks are the real racists for bringing up matters of race. I agree.

[cui bono]

142. Is that what you posted?

That's not what I remember. Deflection doesn't change facts. You posted a smear against Sanders written by a racist. Many of us saw it. You are letting anger and hatred cloud your judgment. I don't know how you can even begin to translate it into smearing Bernie for no reason.

But I'll ask again, when was that Sanders vote that you are so outraged about that you can't ever forgive him for?

[bravenak]

143. Link? Link to my false smear?

Sanders voted in the 90s. But he never changes like hillary the evolver.
http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[cui bono]

144. So you are outraged about a vote that happened well before you were posting as a Bernie

supporter.

Why the change of heart on that? How could you support him if you can't forgive him over that vote?

You know the piece. People posted how disappointed they were that you would post that. I'm not allowed to post links to call out someone on DU (and I don't know if I could find it anyway, it's probably in one of the many threads about the Clinton Cave) and I don't know the link to it on the Clinton Cave and even if I did it's probably been hidden from the public now.

And bullshit on Bernie never changing. You know very well he changes. He listened to BLM and has changed.

Seriously, how can you possibly go from being a Bernie supporter to smearing him with such a vengeance? Unbelievable. Literally.

[bravenak]

145. Link to my false smear?

[cui bono]

147. Explained above, although since I rarely get hides and can afford one I tried to search...

the search is inactive now due to high traffic on the site.

But don't be coy, you know what I'm talking about.

[bravenak]

148. Let me get that link tho.

[cui bono]

149. Did you read my post?

[bravenak]

150. It didn't have that link....

[cui bono]

154. So you didn't read it. Okay.

[bravenak]

156. Oh, I did. It was rude.

[cui bono]

161. LOL!

[cui bono]

302. Here's that link...

I would have thought that the Clinton Cave link destination had been hidden from view by now. Perhaps it will be very soon. Capped it for you just in case since you wanted to see it.

http://hillaryclintonsupporters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=615
[IMG][/IMG]

Here's an OP talking about who this racist - whose opinion piece you posted - is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251616648#op

[cui bono]

298. Here you go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251616648#post388
I'm sure that the Clinton Cave link destination has been hidden from view by now.

Oh, wait, look... it isn't:
http://hillaryclintonsupporters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=615
[IMG][/IMG]

Here's an OP talking about who this racist - whose opinion piece you posted - is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251616648#op

Here's another post mentioning you having posted that racist's opinion piece:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=616913

So I don't understand why you are posting opeds from a racist when that is a serious issue you have to deal with and especially when you are making it your big beef with Bernie. Now do you see why I keep telling you your anger is affecting your judgment? Perhaps you let your fellow Clinton Cavers egg you on. Like a mob mentality sort of thing.

It just really looks like you are a Hillary supporter or you are letting them play you.

[bravenak]

299. How was that a racist post?

[cui bono]

303. It's by a racist calling Bernie a racist. I didn't say your post in and of itself was racist.

But you are against racism yet you post a racist's oped piece because I guess any racist's opinion will do if it serves your goal of political gain.

It was a hit piece on Sanders, calling him a racist, which he absolutely is not. You know that. Just like the hit piece she posted on Obama. But that doesn't matter now does it?

Did you not bother to read this? You might want to so you know exactly what kind of filth you are spreading around and getting applauded for by those who spew hatred.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251616648#op

[bravenak]

305. Why have you not harassed the stockholm sybdrome guy or the race nagging guy?

[cui bono]

307. I don't know who the race nagging guy is.

As to WillyT I have voted to hide his posts in the past. I don't think I said anything in that OP you are referring to except to try to understand something better that someone else had posted in the thread. To be honest, I should have, I don't think that's the one I served on a jury for, might have been, I know there was one of his recently that I did vote to hide.

I have though, called out people with whom I agree in general but thought they were wrong in posting what they did. And I have defended Hillary several times on here from unfair attacks even though I greatly dislike and distrust her.

So why are you only targeting Sanders? And why are you hanging out on a site which had a sole purpose - until it was ridiculed and exposed to sunlight on here - of spewing hatred towards DU, DUers and Bernie?

Why did you post that racists' hit piece - smear piece - about Sanders?

[bravenak]

310. If my stuff upsets you enough to post this much, why not his?

[cui bono]

314. Ah... deflection. We're talking about you and your post here.

Why don't you want to answer the questions? I admitted I probably should have said something. But sometimes I'm not sure what to say or do.

Okay, your turn... refer to the post you were responding to for the questions.

Why would you post that racist's opinion when you are so against racism and are making that your 'thing' against Bernie? Why are you hanging around Clinton Cave where all that hatred is spewed, some of it by you?

Oh, and still need the time on that video where Bernie says what you claim he said...

[bravenak]

318. Here ya go. Do not see how you missed it.

But that’s not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing?

This is him discussing thE BLACK VOTE not all voters. It is still at the link.
http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/why-hillary-clinton-is-wisely-resisting-bernie-sanders-political-strategy/

Well, here’s what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that’s kind of natural. You’ve got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you’ve got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.
But that’s not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing?

[cui bono]

319. Yeah. I can see why a PoC might interpret that differently than a white person

but how is that offensive?

How your family is doing is based on a lot of things, one of them being "your color". Everyone's situation is based on their life's experience and that is determined by many things, and in this country, if you are a PoC, most likely primarily because of that. So voting based on how your family is doing encompasses that.

He's not saying to deny it or ignore it or go against it.

Anyway, I have to go to bed, so if I don't respond that's probably why.

I hope you reconsider your involvement at the Clinton Cave. It really is a cesspool of hatred and I think you are getting too caught up in it. I think you are better than that.

[bravenak]

320. To us it felt cold and dismissive of our solidarity as an oppressed group.

My race is my family. We do not get to be individuals in america. We are grouped in, so we make do.

[cui bono]

321. But again, you can't throw away a lifetime of fighting for civil rights and racial equality

on parsing some words from one interview. That really is just silly.

[bravenak]

322. See, you say lifetime, I say, in spurts and really mostly in college.

I did not see him out taking controversal stances or loudly fighting for black liberation. I see him as moderate.

[cui bono]

324. Okay, so now answer this. Why are you not railing against Hillary?

She has a prison problem. PoC are incarcerated at a much larger rate than whites. Where is the outrage? Either it's an issue or it's just about Bernie in which case you are playing political football with a very serious issue.

She is no better and most likely worse than Bernie on racial justice. Where is her platform on racial justice spelled out? She was worse with BLM than Bernie was, where is the outrage?

With that... I have to go to bed.

[jfern]

327. Yes, Bernie's racial justice platform is the best according to Campaign Zero

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/s/2016trackingtool.pdf

[bravenak]

330. I'll tell you why.

I spent the better part of the past year railing against hillary, bill, welfare reform, mass incarceration, etc.
Then this summer happened. And ever since Hillary has been evolving, Bernie has been evolving, but only one side's supporters have been documented as having harassed black individuals. Many bloggers complained. People on twitter complained. It was happening in person. And bernie's fans were so mean to me called me racist after racist after racist after racist, and many not calling me names, just piggybacked on others... The stupid letters. The other folks I know around who are politically active complained to me asking if it was happening to me. Yes. Not one politically active person I know in person who is black and a friend has not confided about harassment, at times just for simply leaving a pro hillary comment on a hillary article. They get called names. Got yelled at and called a name in person at an informal meeting at school and told terrible things. This is no good. No good.

When it is told to the source, he refused to discuss it with journalists. That made me upset. When told to his grass roots, they spend more time accusing me and others of having nefarious intentions and refuse to address the harassment. They never tell their own grassroots peers to knock it of, it becomes a feeding frenzy where they do not see me as a human, just a sounding board for all of their pent up frustration and lash out and call me names. They see nothing wrong with calling me names as they see themselves as in the right and correcting the record. If I called even one of them racist back?? It would be this big ass deal. They complain about being called white supremacist by a woman in seattle who was addressing seattle, but they are free to call the next black person they see racist with no qualms. They think we cannot be hurt. Our feelings do not matter. Insulting us and calling us names is like insulting a piece of furniture. We are not real to them. I read HUNDREDS of nasty posts about me while gone. I rarely saw a bernie fan step in. They piled on.

[cui bono]

334. Again, that's ridiculous. So you're going to vote for someone who's worse on racial issues

because someone on the internet got you upset.

And guess what? You were really nasty before you got your time out. You called Bernie supporters white supremacists and then you hung out at the Clinton Cave that the pure hatred spewing out of people there was astounding, and you participated in that. And now you come back here with a bullshit hit piece on Sanders making up a whole new thing you think is clever but doesn't make any sense at all, third way progressive. So I find it hard to feel sorry for you in regards to this whole problem you are having with anonymous internet users.

You have an agenda and it's showing. I guess I was wrong about you. I thought you were better than the Cavers but you are not even fighting for your cause, you are just fighting against Bernie and his supporters.

[bravenak]

335. Sorry for me? Lolololol! Other way around.

Have a blessed existance.

[jfern]

325. The wording was poor

Here, I'll take a stab at wording and improving the message.

I think it's great that despite the hundreds of years of racism against blacks, we finally elected a black President. It was definitely a cause for celebration.

But in terms of turnout in these midterms, what ultimately matters is the issues and how your family is doing. We have lost a lot of working class voters since 3rd wayers took over the party.

What we need to do is appeal to working class voters to win them back into the party.
And of course even though we have a black President, we must continue the fight for racial justice.

[bravenak]

332. Ok.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

204. Hardly. I've seen the bile you spew at another site.

You've sure come a long way since you were a "Samders supporter".

[delrem]

211. result of my jury service. I was #5

On Thu Oct 22, 2015, 11:34 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hardly. I've seen the bile you spew at another site.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=714846

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I've seen the bile you spew at another site" -- this is an ugly and hateful personal attack that has nothing to do with the discussion. Please hide it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 22, 2015, 11:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Personal attack? Where? I don't see it. Leave it alone.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is true. I don't hide truth.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: We do not allow Conservative Cave trolls; why should we allow, or tolerate, or be civil to Clinton Cavers? They're equally disruptive and have similar aims of disrupting DU as a whole. The whole lot of them should be called out, ostracized and never allowed to forget that they support/ed a racist, trashy, extremist hate-site. Voting to leave this thread for truth purposes.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[DisgustipatedinCA]

214. Jesus...the hair-trigger alerters must be out tonight.

Thanks for letting me know.

[delrem]

217. Without DU I wouldn't even know about David Brock.

DU is a way that I use to keep myself aware.
It's the last place I'd look to find an unaware person!

[marym625]

79. please link me to his "third way social and racial issues"

And where he had declined to discuss racial and social issues.

[bravenak]

86. He places economic justic above racial justice. Always has.

Has not changed in fifty years. No evolving or weathervaning.

He thinks that racial issues can be solved by money. See how he brings up jobs in the hood and free college when we discuss police violence and structural racism? Not the same thing. He doesn't get that we have defacto separate but equal in out schools and black schools do not get kids to the level of college by graduation. College cannot help the mike crowns nor can a job. College won't help you when employers pass on your app because yr name is ETHNIC. His solutions to racism are economic.

[marym625]

103. please link me to his "third way social and racial issues"

[bravenak]

104. FINE!

http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[marym625]

107. if you and I can't do this without getting mad, then let's not

So you tell me if you want me to respond to this

[bravenak]

110. Look at the quote where he says that people shouldn't vote based on their own race. That is wrong.

Look where he describes the issues in the community in solely economic terms. That is his position. I'm not really mad at you. Just sad that a person on another thread who I thought was my friend decided to insult and ridicule me and I really liked her alot. Made me cry

[Armstead]

113. A complete distortion of Sander's point

Using the logic that we should all vote by color, then I should vote white everytime, and if Ben Carson is the GOP nominee every African American should vote for him. All white people should have voted their color in 2012 and gone for Romney intead of President Obama.

And I'm too busy to get sucked into this meaningless vortex, so this is my only post on the subject.

[bravenak]

114. He was clear on his points and the video is at the link.

[marym625]

122. I'm sorry that happened.

I haven't seen it. I don't spend anywhere near as much time here as I used to. Too much divisiveness. Too much hate. Too much bullshit. And fewer and fewer of the writers I always loved.

When he said this, I said it was just not smart. He was called on it. He listened. He evolved. Again, Nettie has even stated, since her meeting with him, he gets it.

This is not policy. It's not a bill. What he has introduced is, including prison reform. His push to demilitarize police.

Anyway, my roast is done and I have to mash the potatoes.

I'm really sorry about whatever happened

[bravenak]

125. Enjoy your dinner!!!

I'll get over the other thing. But damn! I really really LIKED her.

[jfern]

171. Voting on race and not positions will destroy the Democratic party

[bravenak]

175. Then you do not want the black vote?

[jfern]

180. I thought you meant voting on race rather than positions on the issues

I vote for whoever has the better positions on the issues. Actually come to think of it I've usually voted for the black candidate over the white candidate.

[JRLeft]

301. Explain how will Hillary help us as black people, when she shills for Wall Street?

[bravenak]

306. Why would you think I think ANYBODY is gonna do a damn thing unless we force them?

Couldn't even get one to discuss race until he got mic jacked at netroots. The other. Whatevs. At least her people don't call my black ass racist day after day after day after day....

[JRLeft]

308. Now we finally agree on something, only a movement will force them.

We cannot be co-opted by any campaign we must maintain pressure.

[bravenak]

309. Yep.

[TheKentuckian]

213. Of course they shouldn't! Why the hell should rational and decent people vote based on race?

Should white people vote based on their race?

You are seriously trying to be mad because Sanders doesn't advocate voting based skin color, gender, orientation, or religion?

I don't get this? Women should just reflexively support an Ernst or a Palin? Black people should vote Herman Cain or Ben Carson? Gay people should line up for who ever the Log Cabin can come up with?

Of course not, this school of thought is irresponsible and the road to entropy not out out of it.

[Art_from_Ark]

233. Hear hear!

[SMC22307]

232. You'll be voting for Ben Carson, then, should he win the Republican nomination? (n/t)

[bravenak]

244. He is republican. I vote FOR my race.

Many wealthy blacks vote for democrats to increase their own taxes to help other blacks. Many black conservative christians vote against their religious beliefs FOR their own group. We are not all on welfare. Not even me!!!! We vote as a GROUP in our own best interests because of our history as the SLAVE CLASS and our current position as the unwanted class.

[cui bono]

235. Where does he say that? I listened twice and didn't hear it. Can you give me the time in the video?

[bravenak]

245. Just watch it again.

[cui bono]

248. Oh, so he doesn't say it. I see.

[bravenak]

251. Oh, so i need to give you the link, watch it for you, note the time.

Where is that link YOU promised ME? Guess that won't happen? I'll tell you when you get that link for me.

[cui bono]

272. You made the assertion. I told you I watched it twice and read the transcript underneath.

It's not in there. I actually would love to hear it because you are not the first person using this against him and I'd like to hear it in context because based on who is quoting it I suspect it is being twisted.

So yes, you should give me the time in the video where he says it. I'll find you your link when I can search on DU. Perhaps now that the hearing is over they've opened it back up.

Nope, still no searching on DU:

DU Home » Latest Threads » Error

Sorry, this function is disabled due to the site currently experiencing high traffic. Please try again later.

[cui bono]

311. So at what point in the video does he say that?

This is the transcript from underneath the video. I just don't see it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You also come from a state, I believe, that is about 95 percent white as well. And we have a great racial divide in this country as well. And it — a poll out this week showed how this might be affecting you and your potential race right now. It asked for support among non-whites. This was a “Wall Street Journal”/NBC News poll. It said Clinton has 91 percent, Bernie Sanders just three. How do you close that gap?

SANDERS: Well, I’ll tell you how you do that, George. You know, as somebody who has been involved in the civil rights movement for my entire adult life. I was arrested when I was a student protesting segregation of schools in Chicago, fought against segregated housing in Chicago, marched with Martin Luther King Jr. in the great march on Washington.

I have a long history in fighting for civil rights. I understand that many people in the African-American community may not understand that. But I think the issues that we are dealing with, combating 51 percent African-American youth unemployment, talking about the need that public colleges and universities should be tuition free, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, creating millions of jobs by rebuilding our infrastructure. These are issues that should apply to every American.

But to be honest with you, given the disparity that we’re seeing in income and wealth in this country, it applies even more to the African-American community and to the Hispanic community. And what we are going to do is make a major outreach effort to those communities, let people know my background, let people know my record, and I think we’re going to do just fine in those communities.

[bravenak]

313. I'm paying attention now. Repeat what you want to know.

[cui bono]

315. You said he said people shouldn't vote based on their race or something similar.

[bravenak]

317. Ah! I'll find it, thanks.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

202. LOL! Jagannathan, Charugundla, Gupta, Cho, Cohen,

just a few examples of the very *ETHNIC* names of some of my coworkers over the years. What sort of *ETHNIC* names are you referring to?

[jfern]

206. He made it very clear that Sandra Bland would be alive if she was white

So quit lying about Bernie

[cui bono]

253. He got arrested in the 60's because he was protesting for civil rights.

FFS bravenak, what is your problem? You are in deep denial for some reason. You really hate Bernie and you have no rational explanation for it. Why don't you take this shit back to CC where it belongs.

[bravenak]

256. The 60s was a long time ago. He voted for mass incarceration after he marched and sat in.

So either he regressed or he played politics with our lives, or he traded us off for something else, but regardless, he did vote for mass incarceration.

[cui bono]

269. He's been fighting racial injustice since then. He has a strong platform on racial justice.

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-black-rights/

Are you this unhappy with other candidate's racial policies? Hillary perhaps? She doesn't seem to have a platform on racial justice at all. She sequestered BLM at her event and then spoke to them in an extremely condescending manner. Are you posting about all of this? You seem to think she is good on racial justice. You know about her race baiting campaign against Obama, right? And her ties to prison money? And Wall Street? She's bad on both fronts, so do you have a lot of OPs railing against her as well?

Oh, can I have a link to the legislation you are talking about and the voting record?

[bravenak]

277. I am not happy with any candidates record on race.

NONE OF THEM. Had one side not been so damn cruel to me, I'd be using my anti Hillary rhetoric. But alas, got called so many racist and race baiters and race naggers... Felt the Bern real bad. It made me decide that they were just as to the right as they say she is, but on race instead of economics. And I see it everytime a pile on of one lone black occurs and they get called racist by tens or hundreds of nice white progressive People who may not understand the implication or history of the action they are taking to protect theur candidate from and and all criticism. Saw it with John Lewis, angry black lady, elon, myself over and over, 1sbm, the entire aa group being trolled non stop... Bernie has been asked to address it and refused. That ended my affection for him.

[cui bono]

283. I'm truly sorry about any racism you experience. It's a horrific thing.

You are reacting by taking it out on someone who has been fighting for you for decades though and that makes no sense at all.

What is Bernie supposed to address?

Why are you not making Hillary address her race baiting campaign? Why are you not holding her up to apologize for that? She actually did that herself.

You have separate standards which shows you are misdirecting your anger and you are doing so at your own peril. If you are angry at DUers or other Sanders supporters then take it there. Sanders can't control other people. Like I said before, if I let Hillary supporters dictate how I felt about her the Clinton Cavers would have taken away the little respect I have for her, but that's just ridiculous.

If you are getting this worked up over people on the internet you should really take a break. Just fight it in real life. That's more important anyway. You can't take the internet that seriously. People are going to say shit they would never say to your face.

And as to the AA group being trolled. Well, the AA group became a secondary Hillary group and allowed a ton of anti-Bernie/supporters OPs to stand in there, so there's no standards there at this point in time. Shitty hosting allowed Hillary supporters to come in and turn it into Bernie smear mongering. If you think people aren't going to go stand up to that you'd be wrong. Defending someone against out and out lies is not trolling.

But you are dead wrong about Bernie. Is he perfect? Nope. But he IS fighting for racial justice and HAS BEEN FOR DECADES.

[bravenak]

287. See... Here's the thing.

Your idea of fighting for me is not my idea. I do not see it that way. I did not see him sticking out his neck in a controversial way at anytime during my life, my mom was born in 61 so she was a kid when he marched. Living memory is important to living humans.

People get more worked up over me than I do about them as evidenced by the letters of harassment sent to my home by a self described fan of Bernie's. That was not appreciated. At all. They also claimed to be a duer and to outnumber me. This is the toxicity I am worried about. Somebody felt that it was perfectly fine to do that because of the environment of racial insensitivity here. That envoronment is not a only here. I was recently yelled at at a meeting on campus of college democrats for not appreciating all bernie has done for me and told he has done more for me than any black person alive. That was not online. He had to be asked to leave and he was big and scary and told me white folks don't have to support you (bad word) anyway. That is a right wing attitude.

If people are getting so worked up over Bernie, that they treat black folks thus... I will do anything in my tiny broke ass black welfare power to stop him from being the leader. I think to have this happening in a way where so many black folks complian about nearly identical racist or nasty of just ugly incidents, then Bernie has to put up or shut up. If he for an end to racism, not paying lip service, he needs to clean up the incidents and possible jerks or racially insensitive folks in his own ranks. If he cannot make the environment comfortable for blacks in his own grass roots, he can do NOTHING with this nation on race.

[cui bono]

292. Yeah, but he got arrested protesting for civil rights. You can't take that away from him

try as you might.

That letter - which quite frankly I do not know is real or not - could have been sent by anyone claiming to be a Sanders supporter. Or the whole thing could have been fabricated. Because this is the internet. You can't believe everything you read or see on it.

So yeah, you are misdirecting your anger completely. It is so irrational to blame Bernie for what you are blaming him. It's quite ludicrous actually.

There are plenty of blacks who are comfortable supporting Bernie. Fact of the matter is, this whole racial meme against Bernie has been going on for months now and you are one of the few who just has to try to keep making it a thing.

He's not racist. His record shows that.

He has a strong racial justice platform for this campaign.
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-black-rights/

He has fought for racial equality for DECADES.

BLM activists think he "gets it" more than Hillary does.

You directing your anger towards him and trying to smear him on racial grounds is simply unfounded. You would honestly be doing yourself a favor by staying away from DU and especially from the Clinton Cave. I think that place just pushed you to a whole other level. I honestly don't know why I'm trying to have a reasonable exchange with someone who would participate in a place that spews hatred of all kinds like that place does.

But I did want to find out more info about that vote you keep referring to. If you'd like to provide it I will look into it. If not, then I'll have to assume it's not what you say it is.

[bravenak]

294. Um hmm.

[cui bono]

316. So no information about this vote that has you so incensed?

[bravenak]

323. You seem to be much madder than I am.

I left and went to drawing class for three hours and came back in a great mood because it was a pass fail assignment and mine was barely passing.

[cui bono]

326. So... no information then? Was there really a vote that pissed you off?

I've asked you several times for the information and still nothing.

I actually want the info so I can look into it and see the voting record and what exactly was in the bill.

[bravenak]

333. Many things pissed me off.

[cui bono]

336. Okay, so this vote apparently never happened since you can't provide a link.

Further proof that my suspicions are correct.

Never should have wasted my time in this thread. All you care about is smearing Bernie and his supporters.

[bravenak]

337. Most times people smear themselves.

[jfern]

338. I think this was about the 1994 crime bill

Most Democrats, including I think most members of the Congressional Black Caucus voted for it. Bernie did speak out about some of the bad parts, but it would have been better if he had voted nay. It was one of those conglomerate bills, so he was voting for some better parts.

There were votes on amendments to have more prisons and prevent challenges to the death penalty based upon racial disparities. Bernie voted against those, but they passed.

Hillary lobbied members of Congress to vote for it.

[cui bono]

387. Thank you. So Hillary is no better than Bernie on this.

So again, it appears it's just simply irrational hatred of Bernie or irrational transference of hatred of anonymous internet users to Bernie.

Okay, confirms again that there's no point in engaging with that poster any more.

[bravenak]

36. Few? Few? Thousands of them! Thousands! His army....

[cui bono]

53. +1

[Number23]

67. And Black Lives Matter never said "Hillary doesn't get it. Bernie does"

If anything, they said that Bernie EVENTUALLY got there "in the end" which made it sound that it took alot of explaining and engagement to get him to understand where the group is coming from. This is clearly an issue where most white politicians in America will come up short on. That's just the truth of the matter. And the idea that Hillary is better or worse on this than any of the rest of them is bunk.

I am so damn sick of the dishonesty around here on BLM. Just fucking sick of it.

[bravenak]

72. I think people are getting too emotionally involved in the candidate and seeing themselves in him.

Other people just pretend things did not happen.

[marym625]

101. here's the exact quote

“You saying that you know that you’re white, you know that you have power, and you know that you are wealthy is not the same as seeing it and knowing that the way that police interact with you is completely different than how they will ever interact with us,” Elzie said. “I felt like Bernie understood that.”

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/56180c44e4b0e66ad4c7d9fa?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

The "you" is Hillary Clinton. Or doesn't Johnette count?

[heads up]

119. Thank you, that's what I was thinking.

I wonder if there's a response coming.

[Number23]

131. The "response" is there since you seem so incredibly interested.

[Number23]

130. Even if you want to take that quote as saying Hillary doesn't get it

It's also clear as day that BLM activists realize MOST white Americans don't get it. And it also clear says that she DID "get it" in the end.

Everything in your quote bolsters my point. Particularly:

Mckesson said Clinton, like many Americans, also seemed to struggle with the notion that “police don’t actually always make people feel safe” and that Americans don’t all share the same conception of the police.

If anything your link says "she got there." It also repeatedly says that BLM activists felt "heard" and that it "was a productive conversation." I know you desperately need to believe otherwise, but it doesn't seem she was any worse or better than Bernie during his private interactions with them as well.

[marym625]

176. she also said.

It took her awhile to get there, but she got there. So I’m hopeful that she will continue to have this educational conversation with herself to acknowledge her privilege,” Elzie said. Sanders was much quicker to acknowledge his position in the world, she noted.

She hopeful about Clinton and Bernie was much quicker to acknowledge.

I believe both candidates are trying. It's just harder for Hillary.

Done with this. You don't want discussion, you want to pontificate. Similar to your previous position on another minority group.

[Number23]

212. You didn't have to "start" any of this considering that I didn't engage you in the first place

As I never do.

And you don't want discussion either. You want "yup yups" on your position as if you're the only person that saw or heard what happened.

And if you think it's "harder for Hillary" that's on you. I would wager that judging by her support, the vast majority of people of color obviously disagree with you.

[Puglover]

376. Mary really.

You simply MUST remember. This discussion board has certain rules that cannot be violated. There are posters that you can respond to and certain posters that you CANNOT respond too. Really dear. Keep up.

I swear to God it's performance art.

And I have gotten COUNTLESS PM's agreeing with me.

[marym625]

378. I did miss that in the rules! Damn!

I'll check the list before I try to engage again. Silly me

[Puglover]

380. ....

[ismnotwasm]

382. +1000

[Number23]

424. I love how folks some folks act like they are the only ones who read things around here!

The amount of denial and hilarious attempts at changing history is mind boggling if entirely unsurprising.

As is the unnecessary and beyond tired attempt at "the pile on" from the unnecessary and beyond tired usual suspects complete with mentions about ABUNDANT PMs. As if anybody could even pretend to give the first shit.

[AgingAmerican]

165. That is just weird

[bravenak]

166. Yep

Left on economics right on social justice. She is left on social justice, righter than him on economics. Both third way. Never put your full trust in a politician. They are politicians.

[AgingAmerican]

173. Weird

I'm not even gonna bother with this one

[jfern]

205. That's total bullshit

He's got much more a racial justice platform than the other candidates according to Campaign Zero.

[artislife]

186. Don't be a third way on environment either!

The planet is fucked up. I think Bernie realizes that the most. He isn't third way with Monsanto, either. Control the food, control the people.

[betsuni]

13. This is great!

I'm looking through the stuff here and it's like shopping in a thrift store full of junk, then I see this post -- something valuable that I can get a lot of use out of. Thank you.

[bravenak]

15. Awesome!!! I'm glad to see you!

[betsuni]

19. Very happy you're back!

[Skidmore]

17. K&R Absolutely.

Economic equality and social justice are both sides of the same coin.

Well said.

[bravenak]

21. Yep!!

Won't get social justice from money. Can't get economic justice with the racism. Cannot subordinate the social to the economic.

[Prism]

24. Do you understand why average white racists fear blacks?

I don't think you do. I really don't.

Economic and social inequality are interconnected. When a white shopkeeper follows around a black consumer, you're witnessing more than racism. You're witnessing a mindset. The shopkeeper assumes the black patron is poor. Who steals? Poor people. When the shopkeeper sees a black person, he thinks "Poor person who will steal."

And that attitude shows how the two attitudes are interconnected. Remember when Oprah got all screwed up in Paris? The headline was, "Snooty shop is racist!" What was the unspoken headline? "Snooty shop thinks black woman could not possibly have money!"

It's a tragedy that social and economic justice are being separated with such an insistent crobar in our political discourse when racist attitudes are so often mirrored by white people who just damn assume all black people are poor.

Why is that? Do you think that assumption would exist like this in a system of economic equality?

I don't believe "A rising tide lifts all boats." It does to an extent, but some boats have damn heavier anchors. But pretending that economic justice has little to nothing to do with social justice is either dishonest or ignorant. The situation is married, and pretending there's an open relationship just plain doesn't work.

[bravenak]

28. The shopkeeper does not think poor he thinks nigg@r.

I know this from experience of being searched (stealing! Yeah right!) in a store while a homeless white dude was shoving merchandise down his pants. I know it from having a gun pulled on me at a traffic stop for resembling a Six foot two black man, bald head (i'm five two, female, and have a bunch of fucking hair), I know it from living black.

I dare not tell you the gay experience or why fuckers treat you the way they do or ascribe their motivations to some shit like 'protecting the children' or 'they worry about their children'. That would be bullshit. They are bigots and need no reason except bigotry.

Besides, anybody stereotyping blacks as poor is a bigot and prejudiced. That pre judgement is based on the RACE of the peron and is Prifiling in a racist way. Oprah weres nice clothes ahd thousands of dollars in jewelry and her hair costs thousands. No way somebody can look at that well groomed BILLIONAIRE and think they cannot afford SHIT.

Think about it. If you wanna discuss racism more, I have time just pm if you wanna do it private.

My boat is not a boat. I have a table to float on while others have rafts boats ships and destroyers.

[Prism]

46. Of course it is bigoted

Racism and economic bigotry are not the same things. They are simply intertwined things.

In your example. You have you and a homeless white person who is stealing. The shop keeper figures you're the suspect who warrants watching and harrassing. He looks at you and thinks, "Ni**er". That is both racist and economic bigotry. There are shades along that spectrum. I know, I grew up white. I understand how they think. They figure there's "Ni--ers" and then there's, "That nice colored couple who lives around the block." What differentiates a "Ni--er" and a "nice colored couple" in those white minds? Economics. And even then, as I know you know, the racism still exists towards the middle class blacks. They're "that colored couple" down the street. But they're, you know, "ok", because they adhere to the middle class social norms.

Think about many stops during DWB. What is a resting assumption involved in a lot of these? "There's no way a black person could afford to drive a car this nice. It must be stolen." Is that pure racism? Or is it racism combined with the assumption black people must be poor?

I'm not denying a racist component. Not at all. Not in the slightest. It's stupid to deny racism in this country. It's too ingrained to do so.

But to think economic justice will have little to no effect, that it's not nearly as important as social justice, is tunnel-visioned, IMO. It's to deny or at least fail to acknowledge that the economic degradation of people of color doesn't play a role in how they are treated in our system. And, despite the country's racial advances, it's very difficult to chicken and egg among many white minds the source of the bigotry. You ask many white people if they're racist, they'll of course reply, "God no!" And yet, they still make economic assumptions that fall along racial lines. Black shoppers, black drivers, they must be up to something.

That's not encompassing. In a nation with our racist history, it could never be. But it's significant in picking apart what's going on. There are plenty - too many - instances than one can boil down to pure, unadulterated racism. But there are many more - I'd argue the majority - that boil down to white people being taught and inculcated with the thought that black people are also poor people and must be treated accordingly.

[bravenak]

47. Social justice is more important

[Prism]

56. Why?

Why more important and not just as important?

[cascadiance]

55. I briefly worked as a store detective during my college years and did witness this sort of racism...

I worked with a few people that had been working in this larger department store for a while, and a couple of women store detectives had cops as husbands that probably shared their mind sets. They weren't really bad people for the most part, but it did bother me when they told me to watch black people more, and also to watch middle eastern or Indian women with big purses as those women were more likely to use those big purses to put stuff in to. I could see the logic of saying, hey watch people (women of course primarily) with big purses, as perhaps that might be a more likely place to stuff things with, but to characterize it mostly as a person of color's problem (whether it was AA or middle eastern) wasn't good for me. I used to live in the middle east, and knew a lot of people good and bad from there, some of them my best friends.

I looked at all people and caught a white couple putting an Atari game in a baby crib box, and another young white guy being a bit obvious of putting a number of pizza boxes right next to a bunch of record albums, which sure enough he stuffed the record albums in to later in a certain part of the store. Management liked me looking for that BEHAVIOR of potential thieves, which didn't focus on a person's skin color as being more likely to commit the crime.

I guess looking back on it, those people seemed nice, and I also used to work along side other POC security people in that store, some of them personal friends of Magic Johnson and Jay Vincent who were high school students and later college students in that area then (met Jay Vincent once when he was talking to them then). So, I can see how this cultural attitude, perhaps where some of them aren't even aware when they carry it, can infect a lot of people who are responsible for law enforcement type of activities. Perhaps more of us when seeing this, even when young junior people starting on such jobs, should ask why the racial stereotypes are being pushed to look at for determining if someone is a likely suspect to watch, etc.

I think that just like POC completely have my sympathy in not wanting this kind of racial stereotyping and excess law enforcement scrutiny thrown at them just because of their skin color or other characteristics they might have, I also think it is important that we also judge everyone for what they do, and not by their racial, religious, sexual preference, etc. characteristics. POC obviously have a bigger problem in that area to deal with, but I don't think it helps if a lot of white supporters of Bernie Sanders, who WANT to help fix these problems are lumped together and criticized for others' behaviors as well.

I shared some personal experiences right here so hopefully you can see my mind set and how I felt about encountering such things that are much more damaging to POC but which I also took exception too, to see how I feel about those issues personally, and also to help you understand that I don't think my supporting Bernie Sanders in any way diminishes trying to help BLM achieve their goals as well as all Americans being lifted out of the messes they are in currently with the way this country is screwing everyone now that isn't in the wealthy class. We all need to work together and try to help each other with these issues, not remain divided and say that each of our issues are the only ones that count and should be worked on.

[bravenak]

164. Thank you. This was really good and illustrates the problem perfectly.

[Bread and Circus]

32. The OP is a bunch of straw man arguments and false choices. Sorry.

[bravenak]

39. Third way progressives tend to minimize things and not notice their own failures.

I tried to illustrate that but at times people project their own issues onto others.

[randys1]

40. So the OP life experiences are invalidated, got it.

[Skidmore]

48. This attitudes is exactly why I

decided not to support Sanders. Lip service and understanding the issues are not the same things. Lives are not academic exercises. Living on the receiving end of racism and bigotry is not part of a false choice. It is very real, and it harms and kills real people.

[Number23]

71. Is she getting a bit too uppity??

And FYI the reason that the word "uppity" is usually used in reference to the disadvantaged ie black people is because the idea is that members of oppressed minority groups are so inherently inferior that when we dare to get educated, own nice things, live in nice homes, speak for ourselves, demand our rights etc. that we are being "uppity" which means reaching too far beyond our stations. We are "uppity" because we don't know our place which is apparently at the bottom of the pile.

The demographic that Sanders appeals to would be the complete ANTITHESIS of the downtrodden so referring to their behavior as "uppity" shows a lack of historical understanding of not only that word, but the cultural implications behind it.

[sufrommich]

185. Your jury results:

she getting a bit too uppity??
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=714115

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Enough of accusing other DUers of being racist. The poster being addressed is one of the most polite and respectful on DU and has been nothing but in this thread. DUers should be able to discuss the issues without trying to intimidate others using false accusations.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:26 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Both this post and the one it refers to are blatantly racist and the posters should both be banned. Unfortunately we are only reviewing one of the posts but the other should be alerted on too to drive out racism.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There was no accusation made toward DUers.Stop alert stalking.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Instead of trying to hide a post that makes you uncomfortable, how about giving it some thought and maybe learning something?
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm not seeing an accusation of racism per say but an education on the use of "uppity" and how that could be construed. Suggesting someone is speaking out of place because of their CLASS doesn't immediately mean they are calling that person out as a racist.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Only looks hurtful because the sentence is poorly constructed, but I do not think the objective was hurtful.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Number23]

225. Wow. Some people work hard as hell to pretend that someone called them racist, don't they??

Makes you wonder why...

And is going on with Juror #1??!

[betsuni]

295. I imagine juror #1 busily sweeping any mention of racism under the rug.

"Oh dear, this will not do. Tut tut. I'll hide the mess under the colorblind carpet for the time being until I can get the vacuum. How vulgar to even mention such a thing!"

[Cha]

290. THIS> "I'm not seeing an accusation of racism per say but an education on the use of "uppity" and..

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm not seeing an accusation of racism per say but an education on the use of "uppity" and how that could be construed. Suggesting someone is speaking out of place because of their CLASS doesn't immediately mean they are calling that person out as a racist.

poor alerter

Thank you, su~

[Bread and Circus]

200. By your definition you didn't use "uppity" correctly. Yesterday I did, and in the correct way.

So go look my post up.

However, here you are condescending if that makes you happy.

I am not sure who alerted your post but I am happy your post wasn't hidden as it just reveals the irrationality of your position.

I am the demographic that Sanders appeals too... a progressive who votes Democratic... we seek to help the downtrodden... that's kind of the whole point of being a progressive.

[Number23]

227. Me and apparently everyone here but you understands what the word "uppity" means

In its (relatively) current use which means people in a lower station acting beyond their station.

And you used it in reference to Sanders supporters who, by virtue of every measurement taken, are primarily white, educated and upper middle class. Nothing "downtrodden" about this group.

Or, even more hilariously, if you meant it in its old(er) form, it means "self-important or arrogant" and the fact that you used that to describe Sanders supporters is actually quite hilarious.

So no, either you didn't use it right at all or you were unwittingly putting yourself and your fellow Sanders supporters down. So either way it's still pretty adorable.

[Chitown Kev]

160. and you, sir/mam, are quite appropriately named.

[JaneyVee]

37. I love you.

[bravenak]

38. Thank you. Love you too and down with third way progressive attitudes!!

[JaneyVee]

41. SANDERS OR BUST!

Must be nice to have the luxury and privilege of not caring if a Republican picks the next 2-4 SCOTUS justices. Some of us do not have such luxury.

[bravenak]

43. Yeah. I don't want back alley abortions becomming fashionable.

[Vattel]

44. Racial inequality in educational and economic opportunity is way more important an issue than

police brutality against POC. Both can be addressed simultaneously, but the former is responsible for way more deaths among POC than the latter.

[bravenak]

45. Why do you get to decide what is more important for blacks? Vattel... You know how that sounds...

[JRLeft]

49. Are you black? I am.

[bravenak]

51. OF COURSE I'M BLACK!! The blackest person here.

[JRLeft]

134. OK, I feel it.

[Vattel]

54. Hey, it's not my fault that so many more people die from racial inequality in opportunity than

police brutality.

[Skidmore]

60. Perhaps so, but you do own your attitudes and prejudices.

They are yours alone.

[Vattel]

61. Tell that to all the victims of racial inequality in educational and ecomnomic opportunity,

the ones that are still alive anyways.

[Skidmore]

50. How can a dead child be educated?

Tell me what classroom Tamir Rice is attending this school year?

[bravenak]

52. Boom!

[Vattel]

59. I didn't say that racist cops are not a problem, did I?

But the numbers of people who ultimately die from poor healthcare and other causes due to economic inequality dwarfs the number of people like Rice who die at the hands of a messed up cop.

[Skidmore]

62. The same racist attitudes bury

black people alive in prisons after being profiled based on the skin color. How many black children are punished by virtue of the fact that they are perceived of as being older than they are just because they are black? There is plenty of racism to go around and that is the point. Economic equality cannot succeed without addressing social justice as well.

[Vattel]

64. Unfortunately, there are plenty of racial injustices in our society and many are victims.

I think we can agree on that.

[TheKentuckian]

230. What about the vast majority that aren't killed, fuck em? The blue gang does a drive by

and so to hell with the rest of the kids?

BRILLIANT!

[Skidmore]

344. Economic equality cannot succeed without addressing social justice as well. nt

[TheKentuckian]

369. True but what about the majority of black and brown kids that live in the meanwhile? Fuck em, right?

Is my daughter a living privileged little no account to be disregarded and held in contempt until such a time that some racist fuck murders her?

Do only ended black lives matter or what?

[Skidmore]

372. How you get this from my comments is beyond me.

My family is mixed as well. My husband is black, and I have all sorts of family members in my extended family who are black or biracial. We have endured a range of both social and economic injustices, some which were life threatening. Economic success do not erase social injustice and it simply does not translate into equality. I have seen it over and over again. Both need to occur. Black lives matter.

[TheKentuckian]

375. Seems pretty obvious when your response to a question about education is

"Tell me what classroom Tamir Rice is attending this school year?".

The truth is most of these kids aren't going to be killed but their lives can still be made a desperate world of shit and unless we provide for them the odds ratchet up continuously toward just such an end.

[mmonk]

63. This line is the greatest lie of the campaign so far and of the Democratic Party

concerning Sanders supporters. Because we are pushing for economic justice doesn't mean we aren't for racial justice or put it on the backburner. We don't divide everybody up into groups but stand for justice for all in every category and have led no one into this crazy idea we aren't or could care less about racial or social justice. This is what is making it so hard for me to remain here or in this party much longer. To be honest, I probably won't. I need to fight for survival for my sons. Have a nice evening. This either or shit is just that, either or but not us nor reality, just politics.

[bravenak]

66. Nope. All true.

I watched that side go full right wing towards black lives matter.

[mmonk]

70. You only see what you want to see.

What do you tell the PoC who support Bernie? Same shit?

[bravenak]

74. I tell them GOOD LUCK!!

And remind them that he sold us out in voting for mass incarceration, why trust him? They listen.

[mmonk]

89. But I'm not.

My family has paid the neoliberal price and we ain't gonna pay it no more.

[bravenak]

91. My family has paid the racial price for generations. That ends now!

[mmonk]

105. Good. Bernie Sanders is not for racial injustice nor neither am I.

I was an Obama delegate. But I'm through here. If anyone wants to talk with substance, I'll come back. But I really don't think its possible at this point.

[bravenak]

106. Have a wonderful day.

http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[mmonk]

364. You too.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter-civil-rights-movement/

[jfern]

201. Bernie supporters still think black lives matter

[Fearless]

68. And yet you're voting for HIllary?

[bravenak]

76. Well, she WILL be the nominee and I AM a democrat.

[Fearless]

78. So you're voting for a third way progressive?

[bravenak]

84. Both are apparently third way.

Both are to the right of me on SJ and EJ but one is to the right of the other on economic issues, but not by much, the other is to the right of her on Social Justice and womens and children's rights. So I choose the one who is the leftist on social justice and women's rights.

[Fearless]

108. Can you cite a specific example where both are to the right of you?

[bravenak]

111. Bernie on (blacks?)voting based on their own race.

His position is also that economics will fix the racial problems.
http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[Fearless]

236. Neither of those statements are true.

[bravenak]

237. Yes.

[jfern]

240. So when Bernie said Sandra Bland would be alive if she was white

How was he saying that economics would fix all the issues?

[bravenak]

246. That was way way recent. That is RHETORIC.

[jfern]

250. Bernie has always known that economics isn't the only problem

He got interested in politics because of his father's family being killed in the Holocaust. Being richer wouldn't have prevented that.

[bravenak]

252. Well, he certainly pushes economic solutions to racial problems.

I am not impressed.

[jfern]

257. His racial justice platform has the best rating from Campaign Zero of any canddiate

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55ad38b1e4b0185f0285195f/t/55dd2754e4b07a7e52f9fd58/1440556884214/2016trackingtool.pdf

These aren't economic solutions to racial problems.

[bravenak]

260. That's nice. I am still not impressed with the manner in which he refused to discuss

the harassment of black journalists and others african americans by his grassroots. When he does address that, I'll ease up. Not until then.

[jfern]

270. I hope people of both sides can move on from the events of 3 months ago

When Bernie said "I plead guilty — I should have been more sensitive” about his handling of BLM, I think that was a cue to his supporters that a new approach is needed. Bernie certainly wouldn't approve of them continuing to harass black people.

[bravenak]

279. He needs to address the harassment. It continues to this day.

[jfern]

286. What specifically are you asking him to address?

I mean every candidate has supporters harassing supporters of other candidates. There's nothing unique there. A lot of people on the internet just get into flamewars or whatever.

[bravenak]

288. The harassment. It happens in person too. Constantly.

[jfern]

291. That's too bad that it happens so much

But this is a primary election, and things can get a bit ugly on both sides. Someone people are just going to get too carried away regardless of what their candidate they support would want to them do or even would tell them to do. Not every supporter is going to be a great representative for their candidate. But you're voting for the candidate, not their worst supporters. And trust me, there are certainly some bad Hillary supporters out there. There are some threads around here about minorities who were told they must be white or not really support Bernie.

[bravenak]

293. No. This is not a shit happens situation.

After 400 years of 'it's just something black folks have to deal with and get over' I am not having that trite response and even thinking about getting over it. Nope. We do that Every time. About 99 percent comes from one side of tge democratic pool, the rest comes from Republicans, should we just ignore their rhetoric too and say it's just politics? NO!

How you run your campaign show how you will run your administration. If you are not proactive or yiu ignote your grass roots harassing an already downtrodden population, that population should not REWARD you and your supporters for the harassment and lack of assistance or unwelcoming atmosphere.

How much support has he gain in the black demographic since summer? Went from five to like fifteen percent right? At five he had LOW name recognition, his recognition is up over 80 percent now and those black numbers are not moving. Why? Because of this summer and the fact that it continues. Hilkary ran a racist campaign. She lost. Think about ut.

[jfern]

296. I think the context of the harassment is important to figure out exactly what's going on

I mean are they harassing you because you're black or not supporting Bernie or what? There are people attacking Bernie supporters A LOT, so just being attacked is nothing special in a primary. I know there was that letter you received, but that was only 1 person. Also another thing is that a lot of Bernie supporters are young and passionate so might get carried away a little more easily than an older and dispassionate supporter.

If tons of Bernie supporters were harassing every black person they met, there's no way he'd have even 15% support. And while I'm sure he's got some bad apples in his supporters, Bernie is not running a racist campaign. Random supporters are not part of his campaign and have nothing to do with how his administration would be. I'm sure there are a fair amount of blacks supporting Bernie because of his racial justice platform. Anyways, most whites don't support Bernie either, so it's not like his problems with support are limited to race.

[bravenak]

297. Okay.

I had it explained to me. They feel that we owe him for marching.

[jfern]

300. Well, they're wrong

You should carefully examine the candidates and make up your own mind.

I don't know what these people said, but what they should have said was that Bernie has a long history of caring about civil rights, see this link.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/22/20_examples_of_bernie_sanders_powerful_record_on_civil_and_human_rights_partner/

Of course he needed to change his message and update his platform to address BLM's concerns.

[bravenak]

304. I did. I feel he lacks the executive skillas as I addressed in my peter principle article.

I am closest to him on economics and more comfortable with Hillary on Social Justice because of the atmosphere in her grass roots. If O'malley could win tho, I would vote o'malley. Like him best.
He has the most experience with blacks. Yes. Even with broken windows i like him best. I hate crime too.
He can care all he wants but he did not build up relationships with a whole bunch of blacks while in congress or the senate, not relationship good enough to get endorsements. Blacks are strategic voters. None of the candidates will EVER get us out like Obama. The bernie grass roots is mostly against Obama, makes us uncomfortable. He wanted to primary Obama. Makes us uncomfortable. Then the netroots. Uncomfortable. Seattle. Uncomfortable. The harassments of hillary's endorsers. John Lewis. I watched hundred if not a couple thousand (hyperbole on the thousands) posts from bernie fans LECTURING John Lewis, a black civil rights activist who is way way way more apart of our history and civil rights, ON CIVIL RIGHTS. Many seemed to think Bernie was the REAL activist when compared to John Lewis. It upsets us when more credit is given to a white person who JOINED a struggle already in progress for a little while than a man who walked the walked for years and is a piece of living history. John Lewis did more fighting for my rights than Bernie. As did my mama. Giving him so much credit and accolades feels like diet history.

When a group of people see you as less than them you probably avoid joining that group.

[jfern]

312. He's got 0 endorsements from whites in congress

So I wouldn't read too much into the fact that only 1 black in congress endorsed him.

I think most Bernie supporters voted for Obama in the primaries. I did. The problems many liberals have with Obama are that he's been been too moderate on the issues, not his skin color. I think Bernie just wanted someone to give him token opposition in the primary, not to defeat him.

Obviously John Lewis is a much bigger civil rights hero than Bernie and anyone lecturing him on civil rights is a moron. But there are bad apples on both sides. That hillary clinton supporters site certainly seemed to have some crazy Hillary supporters. You shouldn't let the worst supporter on one side on the Internet determine your vote.

[bravenak]

339. Sorry but, only one side has this issue this season

[jfern]

340. No Hillary supporter has harassed a Bernie supporter? Don't make me laugh.

That Hillary supporter cave has plenty of bad apples. A lot of her supporters seem to just attack all Bernie supporters.

[bravenak]

342. I am speaking of harassing oppressed minorities.

[jfern]

345. Sounds like this Bernie supporter experienced some racism

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128058673#post204

Also I remember that someone had mentioned someone was said to not really be black because they supported Bernie.

[bravenak]

347. Yes. She and I discussed that. You should have seen the asian privilege thread.

Terrible. You found one. I already named several and all the black aa duers and much of black twitter...

The ratio is amazing. 1:20,000 or so.

Which group should I choose? The one with one nasty racist case confirmed or the other with i really have no idea how many confirmed cases.

[jfern]

348. Here's another interesting thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251618474

Not all of Hillary's "hard working whites" are exactly enlightened.

And there's plenty of harassment that isn't based upon the specifics of the identity.

[bravenak]

349. That's two.

[bravenak]

350. You do realize that I believe this stuff can come from either side right?

Just that one side has way more of it right?

[jfern]

351. Well, there are probably more young passionate Bernie supporters on the Internet

But if you also count non racial harassment, I think it's much more even. There are a lot of attacks on Bernie supporters from sites like that Hillary supporter site.

[bravenak]

352. That Hillary site accepted me when I was feeling low. They treat me with kindness at all times.

[jfern]

353. Well, they certainly don't treat Bernie supporters with kindness

If you can't see how ridiculous they are being to Bernie supporters then I don't know what to say. Bashing Bernie supporters is a terrible strategy. A lot of us are already not feeling particularly inclined to vote for Hillary in the general election, and having months of non stop attacks on us claiming that we don't care about blacks or what not is not going to help.

A lot of attacks from Hillary supporters are similar to that they had against Obama. He's not electable. He's the Messiah. He doesn't have the right experience. Blah blah blah. Well, 8 years ago, I ignored all these lame attacks, voted Obama, and he won.

Most Bernie supporters DO care about black lives, and Bernie has a better racial justice platform. He's also much better on other issues than her. Like not starting endless dumb wars in the middle east. The death penalty. Not just pretending to be a liberal on certain issues for a primary. And various economic issues, and some other issues. False attacks against us is not going to make us want to pull the lever for Hillary.

[bravenak]

354. Look how they are treated. Do you not see the nasty posts by your own side?

If they do care, they should check their friends on their behaiviour to make the vibe welcoming. Kinda like how hillary supporters did for me when I was at loose ends having been kicked to the curb by my group.

[jfern]

355. What posts are these?

Like every post on that Hillary group seemed way over the top. Maybe occasionally a Bernie supporter posts something bad, but that's really nowhere near the same frequency.

[bravenak]

356. Lol! Goodnight.

I just cannot take the oblivious way some people seems to move through the universe. I must have honesty and frankness in discussion or it drives me mad. At times there are those who play roles of innocence or purity and make believe. I understand. But it is what it is and no one who was a witness to events or knows the demographics of this site means hillary supporters are out numbered by about 10:1 would believe that the bulk of harassment has come from them. That is amazing.

[jfern]

357. That Hillary supporter site was posting a lot of crazy shit

I guess they felt DU was too restrictive for the crazy things they wanted to say. But it seemed like almost post there was nuts. Anyways if there are really 10 times more Bernie supporters here, then I think we can at least agree that the percentage of Hillary supporters who post crazy stuff is higher than the percentage of Bernie supporters.

[bravenak]

358. People here were posting likewise about me personally. Is this a cesspool?

We do not agree. I see you found no issue with the stockholm syndrome post, i take it? The race nagger post? All the posts calling black folks racist? No? Didn't seem crazy to you? Not 'racist'?

[jfern]

359. Wrong

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251687330#post136

And yet I never see a Hillary supporter telling other Hillary supporters to knock it off when they attack all Bernie supporters.

[bravenak]

360. Good! Now you know what types of posts to monitor.

Monitor those. Not the posts over at the Hillary site. It is futile to care about those posts cause there are always worse here. You have seen them, I have seen them, everybody see's them. They are ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Go to dailykos and monitor those. Many of a similary type to that link. Go around and read them, site to site. Then... Pretend you are black and new to politics or just a GE voter not a political analyst, read them again, allow yourself to feel offended, feel all of the emotions. Then think about how many folks vote based on emotional response to stimuli. Abortion voters who vote to close planned parenthood. The religious right. Blacks who have an emotional response to racism in republicanism but are conservative christians (we talked about the predominance of conservative religion in the black community before). Hispanics emotionally responding to anti immigrant rhetoric. Keep thinking about who votes based on what.

Once you finish yiu will be left with a small smal, minority that votes based on pure policy.


Then you can stop being black and assess what the problems are and find solutions. I have solutions. I once said 'stfu'. People were angry. They did not stfu. Now here we are.

[bravenak]

361. I forgot to mention.

Hillary supporters do not have to do anything to win, just tread water. Your job is harder. You have to lure her voters away.

[jfern]

363. Yes, Bernie has a steep uphill path

The primary odds are against him.
Although he seems to poll a bit better than her in the general election.

[AgingAmerican]

386. And that's the crux of her whole position

Her whole position is based on provable falsehoods. This is how Republican's think. This is what cognitive dissonance looks like.

[cui bono]

390. But yours is.

[AOR]

80. Welcome back bravenak...

"It was one class - the oppressed, and that other class - the oppressor. And it's got to be a universal fact. Those that don't admit to that are those that don't want to get involved in a revolution, because they know as long as they're dealing with a race thing, they'll never be involved in a revolution."

"We never negated the fact that there was racism in America, but we said that the by-product, what comes off of capitalism, that happens to be racism. That capitalism comes first and next is racism. That when they brought slaves over here, it was to make money. So first the idea came that we want to make money, then the slaves came in order to make that money. That means, through historical fact, that racism had to come from capitalism. It had to be capitalism first and racism was a byproduct of that."

"We have to understand very clearly that there's a man in our community called a capitalist. Sometimes he's black and sometimes he's white. But that man has to be driven out of our community, because anybody who comes into the community to make profit off the people by exploiting them can be defined as a capitalist."

"We got to face some facts. That the masses are poor, that the masses belong to what you call the lower class, and when I talk about the masses, I'm talking about the white masses, I'm talking about the black masses, and the brown masses, and the yellow masses, too. We've got to face the fact that some people say you fight fire best with fire, but we say you put fire out best with water. We say you don't fight racism with racism. We're gonna fight racism with solidarity. We say you don't fight capitalism with no black capitalism; you fight capitalism with socialism."

--Fred Hampton excerpts from-- Power Anywhere Where There's People

[bravenak]

88. Hey!!

See I see it as separate cause only we have been the slave class. Think about that in yr class system...
Oppressors, the nobility, the mid class, the plebs, the slave class. That is our caste system before the civil war.

[AOR]

182. How you been...good I hope...

Slavery existed long before the African slave trade begin bravenak. Institutionalized racism not so much. Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome ect. It was always about class, power, and the dough. Institutionalized racism arose along with capitalist commodity production. Institutionalized racism along with slavery another tool in the ruling class assholes playbook. Either way you look at it doesn't diminish the Black struggle in any way.

[bravenak]

188. Yeah. But I like to focus on domestic slavery since it affects our society still.

[TheKentuckian]

371. Yeah, like they came and took us in chains just to be mean to black people.

Then genocided the native populations just to be dicks.

Then they exploited Asian folks like slaves many who use our railroad lines as a headstone to get their jollies as well.

You better bet your ass that greed was and is a primary driver of oppression in this country.

[bravenak]

385. Greed plus evil and selfish.

[TheKentuckian]

83. Strawman temper tantrum because the fiscal conservative/social liberal shit won't fly anymore, huh?

Too bad. We need justice...full stop. I'm not picking and choosing and the overwhelming majority trying to make it be a false choice are watching their bread they want to enjoy and stack.

I've ever been and never will be third way on Social Justice but that doesn't mean accepting the traditional Turd Way nonsense AT ALL.
No I'm not trading me and my daughter's future and opportunity to get some placating lip service as we continue to get no justice be it economic, social, or legal.
No, I'm not fixing to help the corporate rightest to keep getting their preferred flavor of delusional and cruel conservatism because they aren't shitty bigots.

It is lip service because yes they very much are so tied together no matter what the comfortable and well off want to pretend there is no real and honest unbundling practicable.

Justice is justice there can be only one, it is in very short supply, and phony Turd Wayesque division doesn't generate not one iota more of the precious stuff.

They've been playing this game for decades now and we are stuffing their prisons public and private, destroying our families, murdering us in cold blood on the streets, and starving us of opportunities the whole way.

This tact is stupid, self destructive, and a completely false dilemma designed solely to excuse economic deprivation and use the people on the bottom of the pile as human shields with a shitty smiley face on it to get over and generate more injustice for all.

The entire premise is nonsense.

[bravenak]

87. Your headline is insulting

[TheKentuckian]

99. There is only one justice. The response is earned by anyone trying to parse it to make it acceptable

to deprive folks of it because maybe some other folks get a sample...supposedly though the ones doing the parsing campaign have been a big part of why justice is in such short supply all around.

I'd find the whole point being made to be insulting if it wasn't so cartoonish, false, and nonsensical.

I've got no clue what you are insulted about because what else could you have possibly meant?

[bravenak]

102. There is no justice without equality. The slave class mentality for blacks where they

subordinate their own racial justice, 400 years in the wait, to the economic justice of others who get a lotta bit to our little bit and tell us to comfort ourselves with that while our children are living in defacto separate-but-equal and our men are jailed in the concrete plantations of the mic and our women work to the bone or sacrifice their dignity to feed the child whose daddy cannot get a job to pay support with because of his name and it's 'ethnic' sound and therefore ends up shot in the back running from po pos.

[TheKentuckian]

115. I already said just that. I also said that there is no justice in desperation and want.

I also said there is no justice without practicable legal recourse. There is no justice without political power. There is no justice without knowledge.

Justice is justice and no aspect will do without the others in my experience and observations.

It is all the same thing and the the divisions are not only artificial but intellectually bankrupt and corrosive to the entire basic concept.

[bravenak]

116. I said it first, so there!

[TheKentuckian]

121. Good. I just wish you could say it all.

[bravenak]

127. Me too! Too much homework this week. Sadly. And boring stuff at that!

[bvar22]

100. Nailed It!

This post is nothing more than the cheap, grade school Fallacy of presenting a binary (either/or).
It is more than possible to be and do BOTH.
Of course, the OP neglected to discuss that as a possibility.

[Starry Messenger]

93. You are made of awesome and diamonds.

The DU should think twice about exiling you again, since you've returned for a belt match and are knocking them down left and right.

[bravenak]

94. These memes need to go.

You are so funny!

[ucrdem]

95. Glad you're back bravenak

[bravenak]

98. Thank you!!!

[ChiciB1]

117. IMO, You NAILED THIS! Why This Country Has Been UNABLE To See This

is so disgustingly ignorant it makes me grind my teeth and pull my hair out!

If we don't WAKE UP and Get Our S--T Together, we go the way of ROME!

Thank you for your post!

[bravenak]

118. Thank you!!

We need to be full left!! On economic and social justice! Otherwise, 'status quo'.

[blackspade]

124. FUCK YES! K&R!

Excellent OP.

I would also like to add that racial and social justice will kill capitalism and with it massive amounts of economic inequality.
It's time to put the horse before the cart.

[bravenak]

126. Yay!!!!

[heads up]

128. Why

Why is there the assumption that Hillary is better that Bernie for POC? Doesn't she represent the private prison industry, in a worldwide sense?

Isn't the OP describing Third Way Hillary, not Bernie?

Who will be 'Worse than Obama' for POC, Hillary or Bernie?

[bravenak]

129. Did my op make that assumption? Not really.

Just described another version of third way. Right on social justice left on economic justice vs left on social justice right on economic justice. But seeing as their exonomics are not very far apart, she is better.

http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[heads up]

132. Sorry

I got confused. I don't think they're 'not that far apart' on economic issues though. I wonder when was the last time Hillary shook the hand of a poor person, and would she?

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/620603824441458688

[bravenak]

133. Hillary touches poor black children. But not in a weird way. Lolololol! This is funny.

[heads up]

139. She's

She's...feeding.

[cui bono]

328. You don't know anything about either candidate if you think they are not very far apart

on economics.

I see now my suspicions are correct. You never were a real Bernie supporter, and most likely you are a Hillary supporter.

You are now attempting to resurrect the old meme of social justice vs. economic justice and it didn't fly before and it sure as hell isn't flying now. ESPECIALLY if you present such an ignorant idea that Sanders and Clinton are not very far apart on economics. That is simply ludicrous.

What a sham.

Sanders is MUCH better on economics AND he is better on social justice.

[jfern]

329. True that

I think guns are the only issue that Hillary isn't to the right of Bernie on. I can't think of another. He's even got a better record on abortion than her. She was open to banning partial birth abortion in 2000, although did vote against the ban in 2003.

[bravenak]

331. CT

[ieoeja]

414. That is *not* "another version of Third Way".

It is part and parcel of "the" version of Third Way. The Third Way have always had a stated strategy on social justice issues: triangulate. The conversation with pre-DLC Democrats went something like the following:

Abandoning leftwing economic issues will let us destroy the Republicans' advantage in fund-raising. But that will hurt us with the working and middle class. We are already hurting with White people in that group because of our support for minority civil rights. If we temper that support, we may get some Reagan Democrats to return to the fold. So don't just say, "I support a women's right to choose," instead say, "I believe abortion should be safe and rare". You have to add in the "rare" part so they think, "you don't really like abortion". We call this "triangulation".

And for Christ's sake, get those damn Gays to stop pushing for same gender marriage. There is a reason the Republicans are the ones always talking about it. Don't they understand pragmatic politics?

THAT is the argument they put forward to convince Democrats to change strategy. It was not some great secret conspiracy. These things were discussed openly and often throughout the '90s.


And as President of the DLC Hillary was front and foremost in making the above argument. I would direct you to her open letter debate with Saul Alinsky, but that was long ago. Her more recent experience with the DLC, her racist 2008 campaign, the fact that she still equivocates on social justice issues in a mixed or predominately Conservative crowd all prove that she still offers only lukewarm support of civil rights.

Conversely, when the Third Way emerged onto the scene, Bernie led the fight against them. And not just on economic issues. In fact, his earliest forays against the Third Way were predominately on social justice issues. The economic betrayal took some time to become more evident.


This thread would be excellent if not for that one glaring error.

[bravenak]

415. Yes yes. Except that I like the way I put it.

[DemocraticWing]

135. That's why I don't like homophobic Clinton Centrist Democrats.

[bravenak]

137. Same reason I don't like paternalistic anti social justice only money matters democrats.

[DemocraticWing]

140. I understand why they exist.

In academia they're the Marxists, who always view things through class and nothing else. It's a dumb, simplistic view of the world in my opinion. Those people support Bernie Sanders because he's the most economically left-wing person running, just like many of the demonized "SJW" millennials support him for being the most left-wing on social issues.

I don't regard Sanders as somebody who holds the Marxist view of class reductionism, although you can see the tinges of it in his rhetoric, probably based on something he learned at UChicago long ago. But I also think that, especially as the child of Jewish immigrants, he has a keen sense that things are much deeper than economics sometimes. Lots of people get a raw deal just because people don't like their race, religion, sexuality, or gender. Maybe he doesn't get it. Maybe everything is a lost cause. Maybe I'm just idealistic and want to think he's the closest thing to my personal views in politics anymore.

I also don't think economic justice is a less important issue. Having been poor my whole life, I'm fearful that one day everything will intersect into a crisis where I'm fired for being gay and subsequently starve at the hands of Reaganomics.

[bravenak]

141. I get it. But once you are black and poor and then black and NOT poor.

You know you'd pick poor over black many many times. Like just driving down the street is safer for a poor white than a middle class black. Or poor white kids are suspended and arrested far less often than middle class black kids. Or that public housing for poor whites is brand new or not housing projects and concrete jungles. Or or or...

Can't hide black, cannot be a nondescript black, we are not the boy or girl nextdoor or 'all america kids', or troubled youth (we are thugs, gangbangers, throwaways). Or lgbt are murdered more often especially our trans. So many reasons to prefer being a poor white than a poor black.

[Prism]

152. Can't hide LGBT either

Again, I insist, you just don't know. I don't think you've ever bothered to know.

So, which of us gets to research LGBT youth? How they can't walk down the street, how they can't interact with law enforcement, how their complaints are mocked or laughed at, how they have a disproportionate rate of suicide?

Do you want to discuss that, or do you want to pretend your situation is singular?

Lemme know when. You kind of dodged me upthread.

[bravenak]

153. I insist that I do not know.

I can hide my bisexuality, some can hide their gayness from the public, but black is in yr face. No hiding. Ever.

Look at ptsd in black youth, arrest rates, abuse rates, lead poisoning rates....

[Prism]

169. So gay rights aren't as bad because they can hide?

Annnnd . . . there it is.

Thank you. I was wondering. Now I know.

[bravenak]

170. Why would you say that? That's crazy talk.

[Prism]

177. You said quite enough

"I can hide my bisexuality, some can hide their gayness from the public, but black is in yr face. No hiding. Ever. "

Thank you. You are in line with a decade of bigotry on DU, and you've just revealed it.

It's a bit of a relief. I don't have to work to uncover it. You're just straight up about it.

Seriously, thank you.

The fact you can't figure out how wrong that is is exactly my point. You have zero idea. And your friends ain't going to be able to let you know why. They'll probably defend you. By all means, throw that spotlight on it. Does us both a favor.

[heads up]

210. Are

So are you two doing a 'my road is harder than yours' thing here? If that's the case I have to say bravenak has a point. It's not like police jump out of their cars to shoot white gay guys like they do 11 year old black kids.

[jfern]

215. It really depends on where and when which group has the worst time

For example, Bernie's father's family was especially the wrong place at the wrong time. That's what got Bernie so interested in politics.

[heads up]

220. Yuh

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Perus-Indigenous-Women-Demand-Justice-for-Forced-Sterilization-20151022-0005.html

[jfern]

221. Wow, that's pretty recent

The Mexican government has waged war against Native Americans in the last couple of decades as well.

[heads up]

222. I know

Forced sterilization of 320,000 people from 1996 t0 2000. Crazy.

[bravenak]

346. I said SOME

[leftofcool]

362. Are you serious?

Sorry buddy, you can't hide being Black, anywhere! Get it?

[irisblue]

197. Alert Results

On Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I insist that I do not know.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=714533

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Sorry, but saying that LGBT people can avoid being oppressed by hiding in the closet is the very picture of homophobia. It's what Rand Paul caught flack for saying just last week. It has no place on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 22, 2015, 11:08 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think that's what the poster is saying.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While the original post may have been ill informed, I did not feel it violated an open discussion platform according to DU rules
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I have to agree with the alerter. People of Color are easy targets for bigots. LBGT people can't always "hide", and what about our POC LGBT brothers
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[heads up]

155. I still

I still don't get how anyone can think Hillary's going to do any more to stop that than Bernie. Both will come up with a 'plan', obviously, but who has more credibility to follow through?

[bravenak]

159. Neither will do more than the other.

[heads up]

162. Probably true.

But maybe not. It's not going to be the one who works for the private Prison Industry, and tells us that POC need to have some cops around so they can feel safe. Right, huh?

[bravenak]

172. Or votes for the crime bill and to sheild gun manufacturers, amirite?

[heads up]

181. Sure.

Maybe, I'm not sure the 'shield gun manufacturers' thing has a lot to do with institutionalized racism, though, I'm trying to make sense of that?

[TheKentuckian]

365. The crime bill pushed and supported friends of the black community, the Clintons?

Horrible vote but he has way fewer of them than about anybody including some with more benefit of the doubt having to be granted, many of whom also either voted for the piece of warm purple place shit or would have had then been there for more likely than not.

The gun manufacturer bill has nothing to do with this at all, your free to not like it all you want but unless you're going to go with all black gun owners hate black people the logic is going to break down pretty fast and I say it does instantly the thought that I should be able grift Faberware because someone stabs me with a knife they made.

I get many of the more fire breathing gun control really, really, really wanted to try nuisance lawsuit manufacturers into oblivion but the whole idea makes no sense except to end around passing actual legislation and/or a constitutional amendment but not everyone agrees with the tactic at all it is a weird litmus test for where one stands with black people probably because it is all someone wants to attack really has to hang their hat on.

The case made here is weaker than weak.

[cui bono]

395. The crime bill that Hillary voted for and lobbied Congress about?

[bravenak]

398. So, no standing on principle? I guess that's fighting for us for fifty years!!! Except on prison..

[cui bono]

400. No, I guess you don't stand on principle. You show that all over this thread.

You've really lost the plot. Entirely.

[bravenak]

403. Nor does he apparently. I do not pretend to not change in fifty years.

[AOR]

187. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about in regards to Marx...

or "Marxists supporting Sanders." Tell me what you think of capitalism and I'll tell you what side you're on in regards to Social and Economic Justice. Probably one of the most ignorant posts I've seen in my short stay here.

[DemocraticWing]

218. Capitalism is a cancer on society.

I'm not going to recount decades of academic infighting, but yes many Marxists sometimes fail to grasp the whole picture. That doesn't necessarily mean their voices aren't worth hearing, nor does it condemn all of Marxism. It certainly doesn't condemn Marx's writing.

[AOR]

231. It is a caricature that many have created in their mind...

that classical Marxists fail to grasp the whole picture. Those "leftists and Marxists" who don't grasp the whole picture that Social and Economic justice can't be separated are not Marxists to begin with. That would indeed include the new breed of "Cultural Marxists" and the "New Leftists" in which identity politics takes precedence over class struggle and class analysis and who are as clueless as the CPUSA and the DSA who think the "road to Socialism" runs through the Democratic Party.

"Class reductionist" are the words of reactionary "leftists" unable to deal with the objective material realities of scientific socialism and historical materialism. And yes Tim Wise and those of his ilk are reactionary assholes in case you needed any further explanation.

Also...proclaiming that capitalism is a cancer on society (which in fact it is) and unwaveringly knowing and stating which side one stands on (in the relationship between labor and capital and ruling class vs working class) are entirely two different things. One represents a feel-good slogan the other represents class struggle.

[Dem2]

163. Well done.

Many of the responses are very interesting.

[bravenak]

168. Very.

[BooScout]

167. K and R!

[bravenak]

174. Hey Boo!

[BooScout]

178. Hey my friend!

Love you!

[still_one]

179. Glad you are back bravenak, you were missed.

[liberal_at_heart]

191. If Prism's OP response to this thread is locked then this one should be too.

This is a disgusting OP.

[Prism]

198. It's cool

The jury results were actually hilarious. One juror thought I was being homophobic, one thought I was a newbie, and another thought I was hit and run posting even though I responded multiple times in thread. It cracked me up quite a bit. People don't read too much.

And I'm glad the OP has revealed her homophobic side by claiming gay people can just hide from discrimination.

Blew her own damn foot off there.

[Puglover]

377. Nothing new.

Her pals have pushed this shit for years. Some folks were tombstoned for it. Now it seems to be just fine.

Thanks for shining a light on it.

Frankly I take none, NONE of them seriously. It's laughable.

[Bonobo]

195. My concern is politicians using social issues as a feel-good talking point to continue to ignore

-and even facilitate -the growing economic inequality that disproportionately affects people of color in so many ways.

[bravenak]

238. They all do it. All of them. All.

[Bonobo]

242. Yes, but even then, there IS some variation of sincerity among people.

I do not and cannot trust power-seeking people. The only way I can imagine deciding whether a person is trustworthy is to look back at their history and see how they behaved when they were not being watched and not seeking to gain something.

[bravenak]

243. Then do not ever trust anybody running for prez. That is power seeking behaivior.

I'm looking at BOTH records. Both are not anything to be excited about for a black woman. Bernie voted FOR mass incarceration, Hillary promoted it. Both guilty.

[Bonobo]

249. Yeah, well there is running and there is racing feverishly...

Just my personal opinion of course, but my radar reads Hillary as a pursuer of money, wealth and fame far above Bernie's ambition.

BTW, Sanders opposed the Violent Crime Prevention Act of 1991 during his first year in the U.S. House of Representatives -and though he voted for the final version of the one in 1994, I think it had more to do with his opposition to the death penalty.

[bravenak]

254. Well, dude voted for it.

Hillary wants to be president. Bernie wants to be president. They are both to my right. I have no reason to trust either. I also believe he may have been against affirmative action but I'm not sure so don't quote me yet, I have to check on it.

[Bonobo]

268. I won't argue you over your choice.

It's clear to me that you're smart as hell, well educated on the issues, know your own mind and are as left as I am.

Vote as you see fit. I respect your choice whatever that may turn out to be.

[bravenak]

271. Guess what. I'm completely ambivilent.

Had the one side not been so damn mean to me I'd be arguing my anti Hillary points. You know this.

[jfern]

273. We're sorry about what happened after the BLM protests

[Bonobo]

275. Yup, I know it.

I tried to explain that in the OP I wrote. It was all about defensiveness and so I understand it but don't condone i one bit.

[bravenak]

278. I know, boo. Alot of his supporters found it hard to watch.

[Bonobo]

284. Sad.

Regretful. Disappointed.

Words fail.

[bravenak]

255. Scratch that. Wasn't him opposing affirmative action. Somebody else.

[Luminous Animal]

207. I get it. You want us to vote for Hillary.

[jfern]

208. Of course

It would be nice if she went about it a more honest way instead of lying about Bernie and his supporters.

[Luminous Animal]

209. We are horrible human beings. We are white supremacist

[bravenak]

267. Who called you a white supremacist?

[aikoaiko]

219. What actions has HRC taken that lead you to describe her as left of Bernie on Racial Justice?

[bravenak]

247. Hiring more blacks.

[SMC22307]

261. What, on her campaign?

How about nationwide... have any data to back up your assertion?

[bravenak]

262. When she was secretary of state and on her senate staff.

The info is public. Compare the blacks on her senate staff to his staff and you'll see.

[SMC22307]

264. You're making the assertion, the onus is on you.

I'm not your trained monkey.

[bravenak]

266. Then do not bother looking. No me importa. I do not care. It is not important to me.

[SMC22307]

282. Works for me. (n/t)

[ieoeja]

416. Irony alert: economic argument used to prove Hillary better on SJ. n/t

[bravenak]

417. For us, hiring is social justice. Our applications often get tossed cause of RACISM.

How many blacks did Bernie have on his senate staff?

[ieoeja]

418. I don't know. How many? n/t

[bravenak]

420. I cannot find the answer.

[aikoaiko]

435. I can see why that is important.

I'm not sure that necessarily makes one more progressive on social/racial justice issues, but it is a good thing.

After all Paula Deen hired a lot of black folk in her business, but I wouldn't call her very progressive on racial issues.

Welcome back.

[bravenak]

436. I know what you mean about Paula.

I prefer my southern racist to my northern or western racist. It's in your face with southerns, you know where you stand. That insidious stuff is worse. You know what it is, they know what it is, but it is couched in mealy mouthed language and pretenses of humor.

I just like to know that a leader tries to be inclusive and have diversity without having to be forced into it or forced to even notice you exist and have needs. I know a Hillary admin will have women, blacks, hispanics, asians, arabs, pacific islanders, native americans, etc, all people who deserve a chance to prove their abilities and achieve positions of prominence to provide good role model for children AND adults in their own cultural communities.

[aikoaiko]

437. I agree.

As much as I still want Bernie to win the nomination, I agree that HRC will be conscious about hiring a diverse administration and generally be supportive of racial justice as she knows it.

[SMC22307]

224. The majority of DU is anti-Third Way,

so who, exactly, is this OP directed toward? Is it toward the small group of DUers who mock their fellow DUers for even mentioning "Third Way"? Or maybe toward the even smaller group that doesn't believe thirdway/fresh thinking is even a thing?

Just a hunch, but trying to convince the American voter that their "economic primacy" shouldn't be as important as other issues is a big ol' loser. #economicprimacymatters. Trust me on that one.

[bravenak]

241. This is directed at those who are left on economics and right on social justice as in ignoring it.

If it is not you, it does not apply.

[SMC22307]

258. Ignoring social justice = right on social justice is pretty loopy logic.

Seems you're targeting the malleable middle, the sensible centrists... those who don't pay attention, those who don't take a strong stand on any issues. Generally speaking, the right- and left-wing pay attention and have strong opinions.

"Third Way progressives" do not exist.

[bravenak]

259. They do exist now. I bastardized the term just like others have.

[SMC22307]

263. And the term will be rejected...

just like your assertion that blacks are under online assault by Sanders supporters.

[bravenak]

265. My assertion??? It has been DOCUMENTED.

He has been asked to speak on it and refused. Lololololololol!!! Cannot believe we are pretending it never happened. Lolololol!!!!

I remember you calling me backward b girl.

[SMC22307]

276. Yeah, I don't remember calling you that...

but I don't believe your letter story. Just being honest. Any updates by the way, find out who the culprit was? It's all too convenient -- letter, Clinton Cave, etc.

Assholes abound all over social media -- supporters of all candidates. Why should one Bernard Sanders be singled out? I wouldn't expect Hillary to "speak on" some of the garbage posted at the Clinton Cave. Sanders supporters have been called elitist, racist, useless white supremacists, etc., should I demand that Hillary speak on it, then act perpetually offended when she doesn't?

[bravenak]

280. I have no idea. Prolly the (redacted) pretending to be me at the cave.

[SMC22307]

285. "Chick"? Careful, someone might consider that sexist and alert. (n/t)

[bravenak]

289. Maybe i should put quotations around it?

[cui bono]

399. Wow! But you didn't deny that this is your post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=715319

[bravenak]

402. Why would I? See my chubby face? That's me right now as I look today.

Be kinda stupid for me to pretend that is not my face. It is. My post too. There is nothing wrong with my posting a link. It is not a crime. Or is it? Can black women post links just like white people? No.

[cui bono]

427. omg...

The reason I asked is you said someone was pretending to be you over there. Now you say that it's really you. Just wanted to know.

NOTHING was said about race or your ability to post whatever you want wherever you want. Like I said, just clarifying if you are posting at the Clinton Cave or if someone is pretending to be you.

[bravenak]

428. They were pretending to be me at the actual Cave. The Conservative Cave.

[cui bono]

429. Oh, okay. Except the post you replied to clearl mentioned the Clinton Cave.

Last edited Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

226. Your argument is fatally flawed.

It's predicated on economic equality being the status quo. This is an untrue assertion, and your argument is of no
merit. Next.

[bravenak]

239. My argument is sound.

[Cha]

274. No, my heart is with #BLM and LGBTQ~ As President Obama said today..

“I think everybody understands all lives matter,” Obama said during a panel discussion at the White House. “I think the reason that the organizers use the phrase ‘Black Lives Matter’ was not because they were suggesting nobody else’s lives mattered. Rather, what they were suggesting was there is a specific problem that is happening in the African American community that’s not happening in other communities. And that is a legitimate issue that we’ve got to address.”

Yeah!

Obama praises Black Lives Matter movement for raising policing issues

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/22/obama-black-lives-matter-movement-policing

[img][/img]
Mediaite ?@Mediaite
DNC Approves #BlackLivesMatter Presidential Town Hall http://bit.ly/1QTW6BE
8:13 AM - 21 Oct 2015
31 31 Retweets 18 18 favorites

snip//

[quote]The Democratic National Committee has given its blessing to a presidential town hall held by leaders of the #BlackLivesMatter protest movement.

Tuesday, a website associated with #BlackLivesMatter movement posted a petition demanding the DNC create an additional debate to focus only on issues of importance to the black community: “It is not enough to poll the Presidential candidates on whether or not they think ‘Black lives matter’ or ‘All lives matter’ – we deserve substantive responses – including and in addition to criminal justice reform, what will the presidential candidates do to ensure that Black lives matter?”

DNC officials, and particularly chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, have long resisted calls to schedule additional debates. But the DNC met the activists halfway, offering to host a town hall instead.[/quote]
http://theobamadiary.com/2015/10/21/up-next-president-obama-hosts-a-community-forum/#comment-1426761

Now we can have some Nation wide conversations about #BlackLivesMatter

IRS to Recognize Same-Sex Marriages Anywhere in U.S.

[img][/img]
[img][/img] NBC News
✔ ?@NBCNews
IRS to recognize same-sex marriages anywhere in U.S. http://nbcnews.to/1ksATo1
1:36 PM - 21 Oct 2015 128 128 Retweets
156 156 favorites

snip//

[quote]The IRS will recognize same-sex marriages for tax purposes nationwide — even if they took place in any of the states that still haven't legalized them — the U.S. Treasury said Wednesday.

The Treasury's announcement of proposed regulations to "interpret the terms 'husband' and 'wife' to include same-sex spouses" essentially formalizes the inevitable after the Supreme Court's landmark ruling in June legalizing same-sex marriages.

Before the court handed down its decision, 13 states — most of them in the Deep South — maintained laws prohibiting same-sex weddings. IRS regulations already allowed the agency to accept returns from same-sex couples identifying themselves as married, but only from the 37 states and other U.S. territories that had legalized the unions. [/quote]
snip//

[quote]"These regulations provide additional clarity on how the federal government will treat same-sex couples for tax purposes in light of the Supreme Court's historic decision on same-sex marriage," Treasury Secretary Jack Lew said in a statement. [/quote]

Thank you, SCOTUS and Treasury Sec Jack Lew~

Thank you for your vital OP, brave, calling attention to the crucial issues at the very heart of our country.

[bravenak]

281. Great stuff Cha!!

[Skidmore]

373. K&R

Standing there with you.'

Mahalo.

[Cha]

374. ..

[mhatrw]

341. Why can't progressives want both social and economic justice?

How in the hell are these two goals in any way at odds with one another or with true progressive ideals?

[bravenak]

343. If they do, then how are they like the people I described in my op?

[mmonk]

366. Some are content on separating the two but I think it is wrongheaded.

Last edited Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:10 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm not alone in that opinion.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter-civil-rights-movement/

[jeff47]

383. Because then it wouldn't be the wedge issue the OP is looking for. (nt)

[raouldukelives]

367. Racism in America is trickle down.

Some invest in Wall St and some take seriously the idea of democracy for all people.

That the only thing that ever really trickled down from Reaganomics was the hate & ethics of the wealthiest and the worlds corporate elite.

I also truly believe the last thing corporations want is a more informed electorate hence the attacks on public education.

The elimination of public schools and the boom of charters. The changing of history textbooks to fit the parameters of what those trickle down racists believe, or want others to believe.

Bush once said when asked about his legacy "Let history be the judge." I think he knew very well just what he meant when he said that. Let the new and improved corporate history that will be written be the judge.

[99Forever]

368. There is no such animal as a Turd Way progressive.

What pure unmitigated nonsense.

I used to respect the person who posted this OP.

Now?

Not at all.

[ismnotwasm]

381. K&R

And on edit, after reading through the thread I see that even after all that has gone on before, and all that is to come, people still aren't truly listening. Doing the equivalent of Patting the head of Social Justice and saying "of COURSE we support Social and Racial justice--let me tell you how it's done" isn't listening. It's reactive, as well as counter-productive.

Good OP Bravenek. I hope people will start to think, instead of defend--especially when they are not sure what it is they are defending.

[bravenak]

393. I find it strange that one side is allowed to bastardize the term third way, but they will

not except my entry into the american lexicon.

[mmonk]

397. It's not a bastardization. It's a serious policy difference.

The Third Way is and always has been about economics and nothing else.

[bravenak]

401. I am making it about social justice. My voice will be heard. My complaints as well.

I hate right on social justice democrats just as much as you hate right on economics democrats. Why am I not allowed to speak out? I am well versed in the use of language. I have a smattering of french (can read, not speak), german (speak and read), spanish (speak and read), Italian (READ ONLY), and portuguese (read and barely speak), not to mention my facility with the english language. I know that the common use often subsumes the intended or denotated usage.
I have done a thing we call 'changing the game' or 'flipping the script'.

[ismnotwasm]

404. And good for you for doing it

It needs to be said, it needs to be heard, and one's candidate of choice shouldn't interfere with listening to your message.

[bravenak]

406. Exactly. Denying reality puts people in a difficult position to progress.

[mmonk]

405. Nobody is keeping you from speaking out (except maybe those who judge

and hide posts and the rules about taking a time out, but I guess those are the rules). I just happen to disagree the two can be separated and succeed based on history. We can disagree. I'll just stand my ground against accusations we don't care about Black Lives Matter. Nothing more or nothing less than that I suppose.

[bravenak]

407. This is not only about BLM. We need a paradigm shift.

[ismnotwasm]

409. And that is what those of us entrenched have to work to see

When we don't pay a psychic price, we tend to not make the effort to see and understand--we cling to the familier explanations, the comfortable half-truths, the deep down, ingrained hard to root out belief in stereotypes.

When faced with a force for true change--far deeper than economics-- although economics comes along right behind-- a real power shift, those who don't have to contemplate privilege and power are easily misled as to what "change" entails. We take the easier road, the one more traveled.

A cop out.

[bravenak]

412. Perfectly stated.

I realized that I have that problem when it comes to certain issues, clinging to familiar explainations, BUT, I have lived a hard ass life, you know exactly what I mean more than most people here, since you have experience with my type. The things I have seen... Done..Experienced.
Often I notice many people here much older than I that are very immature and selfish in thought. I almost wanna have them swap bodies with a poor black teen in detroit for a month to open their eyes. They know nothing but Marx and bullshitting and lying to themselves about their own importance. Their deep belief in their own goodness stunts them.

[ismnotwasm]

419. Agree--I'll tell you my life story someday

It includes things that I don't tell my middle class co-workers because they have zero frame of reference, and not enough emotional intelligence or empathy to understand. They're decent people, but unaware. The fact that have made it as far as I have, even survived what I have, does includes the fact that I'm white and a beneficiary of privilege. Plain and simple.

[bravenak]

421. The only reason I made it was similar to you.

I ACT and SPEAK white according to many. People want to help the 'good blacks' like myself. We need to trade stories one night. I'm gonna write a memoir thingy one day.

I find myself slip in conversation and say things that shock people and I always am a bit surprised that they have never heard anything like it except in books. What easy nice lives. I wish.

[ismnotwasm]

432. Heh! Me too

And occasionally I do it in purpose..

[mmonk]

411. I do not view the Third Way as a paradigm shift.

That's my position in a nut shell or short version.

[bravenak]

413. Nor do i. I also do not believe thateconomic justice will ever come to blacks in this

Nation of institutionalized racism. The white share will be more fair until we solve the race issues. Period. As I watch the resistance to the idea that we need our fair share, not just the crumbs we get for our portion, I notice the most avid of the anti third way on economics people do not care that blacks will not get a fair portion, they just want their bigger portion. They refuse to care about racism because if that got solved, they would not get that EXTRA portion that is stolen from us to be distrubuted to them. They are MY oligarchy.

[mmonk]

422. That is fine bravenak. I don't want to belabor the point.

For my view and how it affects the AA community, I will suggest though reading some of the Jacobin website. A good day to you. See you soon.

[AgingAmerican]

384. This is what Cognitive Dissonance looks like

Cognitive dissonance is the psychological discomfort a person experiences when that person's beliefs don't align with what they see around them. To rectify the two in their mind, they make up conspiracies and strawmen.

Ugly, isn't it?

[mmonk]

389. .

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/race-relations-civil-war-tuskegee-populism/

[PotatoChip]

423. I'm for both social and economic justice. Just like my candidate.

[bravenak]

431. Awesome attitude!

[SidDithers]

425. DU rec...

Going by the number of counter-threads that have spawned in reply to this one, you've seriously rustled some jimmies

Sid

[wendylaroux]

426. she is a professional jimmy rustler

as are you

wen

[bravenak]

430. I thought they'd love to agree with me on anti leftist attutudes.

Unfortunate that they can't see the forest for the trees. (I'm the trees)

[Warren Stupidity]

433. So is this how you've convinced yourself to support a center-right more of the same establishment

candidate?

Well done.

[bravenak]

434. Oh no warren!

I was convinced by the viciousness of the response to BLM. There was much racism extended towards the activists and much harassment of black individuals from self described bernie fans. As his other supporters seemed to ignore the bahaivior or blame the victims, those who were not already involved in the pile on, of course, and Bernie refused to discuss the ongoing treatment of black individuals with journalists I decided that there are many issue within his grassroots.

The fact that there seems to be much placing of economic security of themselves above the wellbeing and equal status of blacks left me cold. Following my own letter of harassment, I decided to investigate the mentality that leads to the mass harassment and paternalism towards blacks and this is my conclusion. All animals are equal, but animals like yourself are more equal.