2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA Question for You All
Do you believe it is possible to have the country we want?
I do. I think America can be whatever we decide it to be. Most of us don't like the way things are, but it appears most also believe we don't have a choice. That we can only tweak things a little, here and there, as opposed to achieving actual progress in a comprehensive way. Incremental change is fine, but we can do better. So much better.
To my mind, we have 4-8 months to render the old model obsolete, or least start the process. If we don't, we will have to resort to the same old tired status quo, making very slow progress in baby steps. Political dramas, kabuki theater and tribal fighting are not what I want for America. I'm sick of the reality tv aspect of politics.
The whole point of being a progressive is to bring about progress. Inter-tribal fighting with republicans is not progress. It's the same dance we've been dancing for many years.
Hillary is running on anti-republican sentiment and counting on tribalism to get her elected. She needs division to win.
Bernie is running on the issues that affect the people and counting on us to help him - to help us.
The choice is clear.
So, I ask again. Do you honestly believe we can have the country we want? (not a rhetorical question)
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)elleng
(130,895 posts)Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)He still hasn't demonstrated that he's not a 'go along to get along' type of democrat. I want a democrat but not one that still adheres to the notion of some magical middle. I don't want a centrist.
elleng
(130,895 posts)Read about his LENGTHY list of accomplishments:
Martin O'Malley:
1. Ended death penalty in Maryland
2. Prevented fracking in Maryland and put regulations in the way to prevent next GOP Gov Hogan fom easily allowing fracking.
3. Provided health insurance for 380,000
4. Reduced infant mortality to an all time low.
5. Provided meals to thousands of hungry children and moved toward a goal for eradicating childhood hunger.
6. Enacted a $10.10 living wage and a $11. minimum wage for State workers.
7. Supporter the Dream Act
8. Cut income taxes for 86% of Marylanders (raised taxes on the rich).
9. Reformed Marylands tax code to make it more progressive.
10. Enacted some of the nations most comprehensive reforms to protect homeowners from foreclosure.
Mother Jones magazine called him the best candidate on environmental issues.
Article here:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/12/martin-omalley-longshot-presidential-candidate-and-real-climate-hawk
AND he has ACTUAL proposed policies and PLANS:
15 Goals to Rebuild the American Dream
https://martinomalley.com/category/15-goals/
Addiction treatment and prevention
https://martinomalley.com/policy/addiction-treatment-and-prevention/
Criminal Justice Reform
https://martinomalley.com/policy/criminal-justice/
Making College Debt Free for all Americans
https://martinomalley.com/policy/make-college-debt-free/
Holding Wall Street Accountable
https://14d2r744okfe40r1ug1oqm6y-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/OMalley-Wall-Street-Reform.pdf
Expanding Social Security
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/expanding-social-security/
Homeland Security
https://martinomalley.com/vision/homeland-security/
Immigration
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/immigration/
National Service
https://martinomalley.com/national-service/
Environment
https://martinomalley.com/climate/iowa/
https://martinomalley.com/climate/
https://martinomalley.com/climate/agenda/
Foreign Policy
https://martinomalley.com/policy/truman-national-security/
Gun Reform
https://martinomalley.com/policy/preventing-and-reducing-gun-violence/
Trade Policy
https://martinomalley.com/policy/trade-policy/
Campaign Finance Reform (Restoring our American Democracy)
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/restoring-our-american-democracy/
Why We Need a Constitutional Amendment to Secure the Right to Vote:
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/news/right-to-vote/
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)He's my second choice.
I prefer Bernie because he seems more likely to oppose the Washington establishment and big business - he's clearly not part of the insider beltway clique.
I haven't seen that from O'Malley at all, my politics are considerably further left than the dems. That said, O'Malley on climate change is excellent. Can he face the Koch machine?
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)All that and he's never held office in Washington DC. Who knew?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I neither like not trust Clinton. The best I can say about her is that she's not a Republican, which, yeah, is just enough for me in the GE. But I'd rather have a person I want to vote for than a person I have to vote for.
Uncle Joe
(58,361 posts)Thanks for the thread, Rebkeh.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.
Then Bernie will win.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The country you get is always a compromise with the country everybody else wants. That's the very definition of a Democratic Republic.
azmom
(5,208 posts)We are an oligarchy. This is why we need a revolution to put someone in charge that is not part of the oligarchy. Bernie says he doesn't want money from millionaires and billionaires because that is not who he will serve. He wants to bring back democracy.
I still vote. I still campaign for the candidates of my choice.
For this to be an oligarchy, the voting must end.
azmom
(5,208 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)One name.
Eric Cantor.
azmom
(5,208 posts)In the study, Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups and Average Citizens, researchers compared 1,800 different U.S. policies that were put in place by politicians between 1981 and 2002 to the type of policies preferred by the average and wealthy American, or special interest groups.
Researchers then concluded that U.S. policies are formed more by special interest groups than by politicians properly representing the will of the general people, including the lower-income class.
The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence, the study found.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)I had seen it before and lost track of it, and the linked study in the article is amazingly well written and researched. Should be required reading.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS1537592714001595a.pdf&code=e40d65fc61c134913e3ad43a422129d3
Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page
TBF
(32,060 posts)we have every reason to be suspicious given the Bush "victory" over Gore.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)eom
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.
Then Bernie will win.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)And unfortunately, on issues of wealth and power, they have had too much help from Democrats over the years.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)We are nowhere near the country the Republicans want.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)the rich keep getting richer, corporations get fatter and happier and bigger without sharing their success with the majority of their employees, we have moved steadily down the path to privatization, regressive taxes and deregulation, we have unfettered "free trade," voting rights have been cut back...
Kind of seems like Ronald Reagan's fantasy come true.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Children are not being forced to say prayers each school day.
Black people can still vote.
Mexicans are not being rounded up and put into concentration camps. Neither are Muslims.
Biblical law is not the law of the land.
Homosexuals are not being rounded up for death camps.
Nope, we are nowhere near where the Republicans want this country to be.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)What kind of country do we want?
And I believe that is what makes America great.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Democracy.
Where we don't agree is this: for whom is the government supposed to work?
azmom
(5,208 posts)To it's citizens. They have all sold us out to enrich themselves and their cronies. Bernie getting elected with small donations, and getting us involved will bring about tremendous changes.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)Do you, personally, believe we can? I asked 'If,' not 'What.'
My answer to "what kind," though, is this:
We are currently trying to decide if we are country in which we are "all in it together" or are we a country of individuals looking out for #1?
The problem is we can no longer be both, we can try but we will continue to fail.
So, the question that follows is, 'who.' We have to decide who we are going to be.
I'm an "all in it together" kind of person.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)The status quo and not as bad as are not a choice I will consider.
I believe we (as in the 99% of the people I know) can have the country we (as in the 99% of the people I know) want. I think the political revolution Bernie Sanders is promoting would be a giant leap toward that goal.
I'm with Bernie all the way.
TBF
(32,060 posts)that they may allow us to pick from least objectionable candidates.
So, I'm supporting Bernie just in case there's a chance.
We'll see if he makes it through the primary process.
OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)loading your questions so that the only answer is supposed to be Bernie. I love Bernie and absolutely will support him if he wins the nomination. But I don't wish to be a party to your veiled campaign against Hillary.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)I will vote democrat in the GE, regardless of who it is. Hillary would be good in many ways but I want better than good, I want great.
I presumed "we" progressives want progress, yes. No shame in that.
No, I was not loading the question. To provide the reasoning behind my personal answer is not the same as leaving only one answer available to everyone else.
But I was getting at a point, which is essentially the politics vs governance question we need to address.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and I don't why it would be so."presumptuous" to attribute a.common vision to a group of democrats.
OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)As Bernie refuses to criticize Hillary, his supporters seem all too eager and will do so by any means necessary. Yes, most of us have a common vision, but some of us have a little moss on our backs and recognize reality.
left lowrider
(97 posts)We see a lot of people praising Hillary for "winning" the inter-tribal fighting with Republicans . . . but engaging in it all is actually a "loss" for the people of this country. We have real issues to solve in this country and the solutions are pretty well known. But in order to get there we need to ask the public to engage politics seriously- not as a soap opera with fake outrage and well timed tears or a sports game with winners and losers.
At least Obama can keep his affairs in order (pun intended) enough to just avoid 90% of this stuff and keep the discussion somewhat serious.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)That is what I was getting at. Or trying to, anyway.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)The Boomers failed.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Particularly on a personal and local level. In how we behave toward others and how we live our day to day lives. There has always been tribalism, wealth inequality, violence, racism, sexism, homophobia. In every country throughout history.
On a political level, we need more voter participation and a strong grassroots movement toward more inclusive policies. Long term. Policies that are more humane, more fair and more just than what we have now. I believe it's needed in every aspect: local, state and federal.
Every country faces massive challenges. History is struggle. Most advanced countries have mixed economies, with elements of capitalism and elements of socialism. The USA leans more toward the pure capitalist realm than any other industrialized country. I believe most people will benefit if we move more toward the democratic socialist realm on specific matters like health care, prison reform, tax policy and breaking up the big banks.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)On the money
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)will be very difficult...without the policies espoused by Senator Sanders, achieving the dream will be impossible...Who do you want nominating Supreme Court justices?
barbtries
(28,793 posts)wish i could say i did. peace? hmmm. doesn't seem as if that will ever happen. but i still believe in advocating for both. can't just give up.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)But Bernie supporters are a varied group, not all of them fit that description. I certainly don't. Not even close, I think we can afford to be idealistic prior to the primary election. After that, I concede that we must play the cards we are dealt. In the meantime, go big or go home.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Rebkeh ... this country as been evolving SLOWLY for over 200 years now.
The founders designed our government so that it would evolve slowly. They did not want a government that would run off half-cocked at every turn.
As for being progressive ... perhaps you have missed the Obama Presidency. We've actually made a great deal of progress against a tremendous amount of opposition. If you can't see that, then you do not understand this nation or its history.
We (on the left) can have the country we want ... but its not happening in the next 4-8 months, or even 4-8 years. We have to control the national elections ... then win the major states and their 2 senators ... then marginalize the many low population red districts who pick insane house members.
If you think this is all going to change by electing Bernie ... I'm sorry but it just is not happening. Its going to take much much more than that.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)Until the primary election, I should have been clearer. I thought it was implied.
So your answer to my question is no, apparently. Or, is it yes but with (over) caution?
Of course it will take more than one guy and one election - it will take years to progress to where we want to be, that's obvious. My point is that with Bernie, it's a start. A Sanders presidency would begin the change we need as he is not part of the establishment. Change from within the establishment, if it even exists, is not nearly enough. Let's not neglect this opportunity to make authentic progress, the window closes the day after the primary election results are in. If we want it, we can have it.
On the other hand, a Hillary presidency wouldn't change much of anything, not in that sense. She would make a few welcome alterations to social policy at most. She is, no matter what she says, more of the same - Wall St and corporations would continue to have disproportionate power. There is no reason to believe otherwise. The climate change issue - she would take on the Kochs? I find that very hard to believe. Private prisons? Big pharma? Neoliberalism is not progressive. If we are going to call for progress, why settle for Hillary when we can have Sanders?
How slow do you want to go, anyway? And why? I think we can pick up the pace, people literally are dying. It goes in fits and starts, ebbs and flows, sometimes it even leaps. We are primed for such a leap now - take it.
As for Obama, even though he wasn't exactly what I would have wanted, I proudly voted for him. Twice! And I would do it again because he was the right person at that particular time. We needed the hope, now let's get to change.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)I was beaten -- really beaten pretty badly -- for doing a science fair project on allele shifts in Drosophila, in 10th grade, because a keyword included in the précis was "evolution".
"We" will not have the country "we" want for a long time, because we're a relatively small part of the population here, and we are working in a political coalition that doesn't entirely trust "us". Not that "our" track record is much better than "theirs", when either of us are left in charge.
This is a messy, slow country, and it takes about a mile of push to get even an inch of results.