Berniebros, where was your "Liberal" hero when The Clintons

[MannyGoldstein]

were making same-sex marriage possible with DOMA?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-10-26/hillary-clinton-accused-of-revising-history-on-defense-of-marriage-act

I'll tell you where: Sanders was trying to stop loving same-sex marriages by voting against DOMA!

It's as plain as day! While Hillary's been a life-long supporter of equal rights for all Americans since 2013, Bernie has held life-long positions his entire life! What's up with that?

[Skidmore]

1. Where were the Republicans? Hmmm?

You probably have a better handle on that than those who were liberals back then.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Oh? Was DOMA voted on around 1980?

I guess I had my dates confused, sorry!

[Skidmore]

9. You cannot divorce yourself from the politics and events that

lead up it. The work of Falwell and his "moral majority" was turned into Republican platform and they ran with it. They ran it into the freaking ground. They fomented hatred and prejudice and are still whipping those attitudes.

You are confused and not about dates.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Whoosh!

Damned goal posts almost hit my head flying by.

You made a pretty specific assertion. If you can admit it was wrong, I'm happy to have a discussion.

[Skidmore]

13. Why should I deny the historical climate of those

times and the events that contributed to them? It's convenient to ignore the greater societal climate, I guess.

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Again, that's not your original assertion

We can't have a discussion if you simply jump subjects without acknowledging you were wrong.

[Skidmore]

17. About what?

I made my point. DOMA did not happen in a vacuum. It did not spring fully formed from Zeus' forehead.

[merrily]

27. Reagan's model was Goldwater. If Hillary can divorce herself from having campaigned for

Goldwater, Manny can--and has--divorced himself from voting for Reagan.

Campaigning and attending Republican National Conventions trumps a single vote. Not as though Manny cast the deciding vote in his state for Reagan anyway.

Seriously, this riff is old in every possible way and boring. Give it a rest.

[sabrina 1]

53. And yet, Bernie didn't let any of that influence his decision to vote against it!

[merrily]

25. Manny's 35 year old vote has been done to death. We all know about it and his threads get hundreds

of recs anyway. Get some new material. This is dead boring. Has been for a long time.

Either that, or let's revisit Hillary's attendance at several Republican nominating conventions.

[MannyGoldstein]

35. Idunno. Perhaps one of the greatest war crimes of the 20th century

And certainly much worse than a member of Congress voting for the Iraq war.

[merrily]

36. +1 I didn't want to mix metaphors, tho', so I stayed with the old, old Republican news theme.

[peacebird]

2. Love you, Manny!

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Back at you!

[JaneyVee]

3. Bernie voted against SSM and on...

DOMA he said SSM is a state's rights issue. Yet his supporters act like he's Lady Gaga on lgbt rights: http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/10/05/bernie_sanders_on_marriage_equality_he_s_no_longtime_champion.html

[beam me up scottie]

5. Wait, wut? When did he vote against same sex marriage?

And that article has been debunked, the blogger lied about the video, here's the transcript:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

He was against the feds OVERTURNING states who passed same sex legislation.

[JaneyVee]

19. Yeah ok.

[Scootaloo]

61. Once again, you post false information, and refuse to correct

[beerandjesus]

39. Well hey, he probably meant Mississippi, and just misspoke...

...because he was busy thinking about how the woman he was talking with ought to be making him a sandwich. Amirite?

[beam me up scottie]

47. Exactly!

The REAL anti-lgbt, sexist, anti-immigration, Palestinian-hating, Bibi-loving Bernie has been outed on DU!

Alert the media!

[DhhD]

6. Now that the Supreme Court has made a new ruling, adjustment must be made under the law.

President Obama changed his mind. From time to time, Old Progressives and Independents become Democrats. Obama said that he was a New Democrat.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. The Presidential candidate you backed until recently

voted against same-sex marriage? Can you please refresh my memory as to when that was?

[beam me up scottie]

8. Now her supporters are helping to rewrite history!

See Bernie really voted FOR DOMA... yeah, that's it!

It's true because I say it is!

Someone revise Wikipedia!

[MannyGoldstein]

10. It was actually DOGMA

The Defense Of Gay Marriage Act. And Sanders voted against it!

Own it, Bernie bros!

[beam me up scottie]

11. This is just like Texas!

We can just write whatever we want in the textbooks and it becomes fact!

Dinosaur saddle discovered in the Badlands!

Bush and Cheney went to prison!

[hifiguy]

44. And the monkey who was appointed POTUS

by the Extreme Kort is going to be carved on Mount Rushmore!

[merrily]

23. What's your point? ALL Democrats who voted for it in 1996 said it was a states' rights issue, incl.

Ted Kennedy, considered by many to have been the most liberal Democrat in either House at the time.

Seems to have been some kind of agreement or strategy on their part.

In any event, how does that make him worse than Hillary, who stood up in the Senate and said same gender marriage dishonored her marriage struggle or whatever.

[AlbertCat]

30. ALL Democrats who voted for it in 1996 said it was a states' rights issue

And Independents!

[ibegurpard]

16. I am real dumb

I had no idea they were doing it for my own good. I wish they had tried to straightsplain it to me back then so I could have understood it better...

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Bernie was voting No on DOMA along with 118 House Democrats and 1 Republican Mr Gunderson

In the Senate, 14 Democrats voted No on DOMA, not one Republican cast a No vote. The 14 Democratic Senators who voted in agreement with Bernie:
Akaka (D-HI), Boxer (D-CA), Feingold (D-WI), Feinstein (D-CA), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Kerry (D-MA), Moseley-Braun (D-IL), Moynihan (D-NY), Pell (D-RI), Robb (D-VA), Simon (D-IL), Wyden (D-OR).

"Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun:
“I hope that every person on this floor who is going to look at and vote on this bill considers for a moment what the judgment of history might be if 50 years from now their grandchildren look at their debates and look at their words in support of this mean-spirited legislation, and consider the judgment that will be cast upon them then.”

Rep. Nancy Pelosi:
“I rise in strong opposition to this ill-named “Defense of Marriage Act” and I do so on the basis of conscience, Constitution and constituency.”

[merrily]

22. Only 67 House Democrats voted against DOMA. 118 House Democrats voted for it.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/104-1996/h316

[pinebox]

21. This is all

[merrily]

29. Not quite all. Hillary, US Senate, 2004: marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman.

[Bubzer]

33. +1 for the added exposure.

Lots of people like to pretend that clip doesn't exist.
Thanks Merrily!

[merrily]

37. Thanks for the +1.

[Duppers]

40. Thanks from me too.

Their support for her is emotional and not based for historical facts.

[merrily]

45. Happy to oblige.

Emotional, economic, what the heck? They both start with e. Close enough for government work.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

― Upton Sinclair, I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked

[Duppers]

46. I went with emotional first since...

I assumed many supporters here aren't that wealthy.

( Speaking of Economic reasons... I got into a heated argument last night with two rich, old fart rethugs at a restaurant's bar. I've never gone toe to toe with strangers like that before but the g.d. bartender brought up the subject, assuming all present were anti-Bernie.

It was clear from the getgo that they (not the barkeep) weren't the dumb, emotional, or religious types of rethugs but the "we've got ours, fuck ALL those who don't" type. Admitted to making +$250 a year and resented having to pay ANY tax on their investment incomes.

I was getting louder and more redfaced by the min. so they suddenly changed to the subject to football and was rather surprised that a female could go toe to toe with them on that too. Wish they had let me keep up my political attack but even my hubs said I was getting too loud...and angry. Thought about all the things I should've said on the way home.)

[merrily]

49. You don't have to be wealthy to have an economic reason to do something.

In fact, if you are wealthy, you don't have a strictly economic reason to do something. Then, it becomes more about greed, ostentation, excess, etc. than money.

"we've got ours, fuck ALL those who don't"

I've seen quite a few posts like that right here at DU. As in, for example,"Bills that Clinton lobbied hard for and signed caused economic collapse in several nations." "My family did well."

Thought about all the things I should've said on the way home.

No regrets. In all likelihood, it would have been a waste of breath anyway.

"Deep breathley," as a friend's husband enjoys saying--for reasons best known to him, LOL.

[Duppers]

50. Economic/emotional as in "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"

John Steinbeck:

"Socialism never took hold in America because the poor see themselves not as exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

This quote came to mind.

[merrily]

58. What at least looks and feels like a say in one's destiny, aka a vote, goes a long way.

Plutocrats, media and "experts," academics, too, have tacitly colluded in the "look and feel" part,

[Kalidurga]

56. hubs said I was getting too loud...and angry...

yeah my kids accuse me of this all the time. I think it just means we aren't acting like prim and proper women.

[840high]

57. Yep

[hifiguy]

43. But, but, but

HE'S OLD!!! And BLACK PEOPLE JUSTIFIABLY DON'T LIKE HIM!

AND HE's JEWISH!!!!!! AND HE'S A SOCIALIST!!!!!!

HE'S A CREEPY, SCARY JEWISH SOCIALIST, JUST LIKE KARL MARX WITHOUT THE BEARD!!!!!!!!! HE CAN'T WIN!!!!!

I'M SERIES!

ZOMG!!!!!

[merrily]

24. Proud to be the 5th rec.

[WillyT]

26. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[Chan790]

28. Manny, do you remember where you were when Bill Clinton opened military service to LGBTQ people...

with his ground-breaking DADT policy?

(I swear to fuck I think Clintonites think we're stupid. Next they'll be arguing that Gramm-Leach-Bliley saved us from worse bank failures and welfare reform improved social services.)

I prefer to take the simpler tack:


These are moderate Republicans.

[AlbertCat]

31. being for Clinton....

.... gets more and more like a cult every day.

Just make up anything you want! It's all true.... and the space ship is just behind that comet....



I remember reading on here she was THE MOST QUALIFIED candidate for president.... EVER!

I asked "How so?"....crickets....

I suppose, since she's only won 2 elections ...for the same Senate seat for a state she'd never lived in before.... it must be that she was 1st Lady. She already knows where everything is in the White House!

[hifiguy]

42. It doesn't even deserve to be called a cult.

It's a goddamn fan club, like the Tiger Beat-reading Bieber fans. Or, to display its 1940s manifestation:

[Bubzer]

32. I see what you did there. K&R

[silenttigersong]

34. LOL

lets wait until the right wingers agree with it

[hifiguy]

41. Dunno, man.....

Home run after home run, Manny!

[JI7]

48. Paul Wellstone

[dflprincess]

52. Who repented the vote

After he listened to the people he had hurt. He made it while in a tight reelection campaign and it was his regret over that vote that made him vote no on the IWR even though he was told it would meant he'd lose the election in 2002 (it actually gave him a bump in the polls). As he said at the time he might lose but at least he'd be able to live with himself.

Apparently Clinton doesn't let her bad votes bother her.

[HassleCat]

51. I can't trust me

I have always been against DOMA and similar legislation. I think there's something mighty suspicious about that! I sure as hell would not vote for me. When I was in the military, an officer told me, "Your problem is, you have no moral turpitude." Let's demand moral turpitude from our elected officials! These principled stands on the issues must stop! Now!

[lovemydog]

54. Serious questions for you.

Is your main goal here to separate leftists from democrats? That seems to be the thrust of most of your posts. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's the impression I get.

The reason I ask is because my goal is to help unite leftists and democrats. I think we need them both to win elections and beat republicans. I'm a democratic socialist. I'm leaning toward voting for Bernie but haven't yet made up my mind. I agree with Bernie that we need a grass roots unified movement. It must include large numbers of people to win elections.

Why do I have the feeling that you have no interest in uniting these two groups so that together we can move the country in a much more progressive or leftist direction?

[Dem2]

55. I'm with you

I could have written same. It's a good question.

[lovemydog]

59. Well, it's nice someone replied.

Welcome here Dem2. Have fun!

[senz]

60. I get the impression that Manny is pointing out

that Hillary's attempt to justify her husband's having signed DOMA into law on the grounds that Bill was actually trying to protect gays is remarkably clumsy and dishonest.

I don't think he's trying to separate leftists from Democrats. I think he's trying to distinguish honesty from dishonesty. As simple as that.

Of course I could be wrong.

[lovemydog]

63. Right now Sanders, O'Malley and Clinton

are very strongly in favor of lbgt rights. The public's consciousness has shifted. There's no going back. We can and should keep expanding rights. I like focusing on the present and not criticizing people too much for their past. I think it's easy to call people liars and hypocrites but if you do that constantly it's tiresome and you just divide people. Maybe it's the buddhist in me.

Of course I could be wrong too. Thanks for your reply, senz.

[senz]

64. Yes, it is now "politic" to favor lgbt rights.

But this very important presidential election isn't about how nice and uncritical we well-trained children can be. It's about choosing the right person to lead the country.

Manny, like most Bernie supporters, is examining Clinton's character. Character. For some of us, that still matters.

Some of us are more interested in the preservation of the democratic system, fairness for the American people, and the future of this beautiful planet on which we all live than in being good little Buddhists.

[lovemydog]

65. Some of us?

I too am interested in the preservation of the democratic system. I don't need a lecture on who is 'more interested in the preservation of the democratic system.' My point is that everyone has skeletons and hypocrisy. Constantly attacking President Obama for seven years and then claiming everyone else is corrupt or anti-democratic if they don't vote for Sanders, while consistently attacking every ally the left has and will have is hardly my idea of demonstrating good character. Your mileage of course may vary.

[senz]

67. Manny's not running for President. Hillary is.

Manny is a private citizen expressing his views on politics. He has apologized for his 1980 stupidity. I can tell by your self-righteous tone that you've never done anything stupid in your life, but you're not above dragging up a fellow commenter's distant past and holding it against him. I'm not as perfect as you, but I hope I never resort to that.

And you can drop the "attacking President Obama" schtick because I've been a staunch supporter of Obama from the get-go. But I know this about those who do criticize the President and also support Bernie: they hold very firm values and principles. I'm not as "pure" as they because I consider the presidency an inherently compromised position due to the power of the oligarchy over all elected offices. I don't ask perfection of my president.

But we're in the middle of an election, and this election matters. Hillary shows herself to be a dishonest, venal (can be bought), unfeeling, uncaring, unprincipled, unethical person. Bernie is none of those. We have a choice.

And Hillary, in running, is up for examination. So please don't tell us to be polite and leave her alone. This is not the time for that.

[senz]

62. And let us not forget ...

Item #3 below.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. Out, damn'd spot! out, I say! Lady MacBeth K&R