Has it occurred to you that are at war?

[sadoldgirl]

No,not our silly word wars here.

The whole ME is blowing up, and whoever is elected
to the WH may have a lot to say about it. I still think
that Bernie is the candidate with the least interest in
war, even though he agrees with Obama's plan to keep
more troops in Afgsn.
All of the repugs will keep the wars not only going, but
will intensify them.
HRC's plans for Libya were a disaster, and she proposed
a No-Fly zone for Syria even though Putin's planes soar
right over there. She also was in favor of supplying the
Western Ukraine with weapons, and now approves of
boots on the ground in Syria.
This bothers me. Do all presidents believe in the
American Empire? Or is it possible that the MIC and
CIA have so much power that no president can refuse
their wishes? I would assume that HRC would know, if
that were the case, which may explain her more
aggressive attitude.

My reason for asking this is that I really believe that
Obama wanted the US out of wars, yet could not do
it. Your opinions, please.

[jfern]

1. She wants boots in the ground now

Even though she opposed them at the debate. She's become even more of a hawk right before our very eyes.

[rhett o rick]

22. Yeah but you gotta admit she is tough.

[Armstead]

2. We fucked up by going into Iraq. We made their war our war.

Prsonally, I'd rather not see a President who has consistently supported the policies that fucked things up sent in to fix them.

[polly7]

54. Iraq wasn't at war. nt.

[elleng]

3. O'Malley talks foreign policy in West Des Moines.

'Democratic presidential candidate Martin O'Malley said Saturday he wants to see the U.S. engage in more collaborative foreign policy, likely to include forming new allies.

The former Maryland governor's words on foreign affairs, including advocacy for a two-state solution for the ongoing Israel-Palestinian conflict, came as answers to audience questions at a meet-and-greet at Inspired Grounds Cafe in West Des Moines.

"What is in the best interest of Israel's security and the Palestinian people, and the United States of America, is a two-state solution. And however elusive it may seem to us, however many smart people say the time has passed for that sort of reconciliation or that long-term solution, I continue to believe that it is our best hope," O'Malley said.

O'Malley also said he envisions a national security strategy focused on monitoring multiple rising threats before the country is "backed into a corner of whether to put troops on the ground or not."

"I believe we need a foreign policy of engagement and collaboration with like-minded people around the world. That's going to require new alliances," O'Malley said. "NATO has served us well. We have commitments to NATO, we must honor our commitments to NATO, but there are also other alliances that need to be formed in order to manage events like failed nation states and the rise of sort of these genocidal groups like ISIL."

Some of these new alliances could be in Africa and the South China Sea, O'Malley told reporters after the meet-and-greet.

O'Malley voiced optimism and excitement about the presidential election, though he has remained in third place behind front-runner Hillary Clinton and U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders.

"I think people are relieved to know that they don't have a binary choice, but they have three options," O'Malley said.

In addition to answering audience questions, O'Malley touted his record as mayor of Baltimore, where he lowered incarceration rates and invested public dollars in education, and his actions as governor, including abolishing the Maryland's death penalty, passing the state's DREAM act to help immigrants afford college, legalizing same-sex marriage in Maryland and reforming the state's gun laws to ban combat assault weapons.

"These were actions, not words," O'Malley said.'

About the event

Setting: Meet-and-greet at Inspired Grounds Cafe in West Des Moines.

Crowd: At least 70 people, crowded in the coffeehouse.

Reaction: Audience frequently applauded or cheered as O'Malley spoke, and audience members asked many questions.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2015/10/31/martin-omalley-talks-foreign-policy-west-des-moines/74945606/

[mak3cats]

41. I support Bernie, and O'Malley second...

...and if I were an O'Malley supporter first, I'd be even angrier than I am now about "MY" candidate's exposure in the media.

elleng - I have to say that you do your preferred candidate proud, better than I do my own (at least on DU). I salute you!

[elleng]

42. Thank you, mak3cats,

I appreciate it, and I am very angry about the media (and sometimes about DU's failure to respond.)

[CrispyQ]

56. One pundit said that HRC has sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

She did it with their help, though. The media is just one cog in the mess that is our electoral system.

[elleng]

62. Exactly, without the media's perpetual spin to 'excitement,'

we all might be able to have informed conversations.

[MrMickeysMom]

4. We can't afford to have candidates anymore that morph with "change we can believe in"...

... because WE.STOPPED.BELIEVING.THEM. I wanted to believe them, but they stopped believing in me, and even more in the principles of a democracy, or what it means to balance unfettered capitalism with socialism, which was the way to balance the past. That's all gone now.

And, this big damned mess... it is simply due to everything that has been reversed since post WWII control of the MIC, loosing any hope of a fair campaign finance system, peppered heavily with de-regulation of Wall Street and corporate control over the message by having 6 corporations control everything we see, read and hear in so called, "news".

All that tends to produce the kind of candidate that the 0.1% wants. All of that results in trying to control the message of Bernie Sanders, who cannot be bought.

Neither can his supporters, who won't be fooled again.

[redstateblues]

8. Meet the new boss- Bernie

same as the old boss. If you are going to quote the "Who" go all the way. Bernie is a lifelong politician- he's a good guy but he is no savior. He is as ambitious as any other politician.

[MrMickeysMom]

12. Put your reference where your fingers are redstateblues...

Lots of good guys out there, there are, but kindly explain the ambitious as any other politician, because I don't buy that at all.

Anyone running of office has to have thick skin and get passed the "game" to have consistently won office and have done as much as he has consistently. Relate that ambitiousness to other like offices.

[delrem]

40. conclusion: let's go with Trump!

congrats on your argument.

[Fred Sanders]

5. The world is about to end in flames and gore and it is all Obama and Clinton's fault....so obvious!

Doom and gloom mentality that attacks the Democratic Party's leaders is not a liberal mentality or a Democratic Party one either, is my thought.

[sadoldgirl]

7. Obviously you did not take my last question

seriously, and I cannot help you there.

[Fred Sanders]

9. Did not take the whole piece seriously, actually, not just the last of the questions.

[Docreed2003]

23. As someone with actual skin in the game...

I can't support a democrat or a republican who foolishly pushes us to the point of another war in the Middle East. This administration was foolish in their actions in Syria and continue to be so and they were downright boneheaded in Lybia. The ME is currently a powder keg. I have no desire to go back there to care for shattered bodies and destroyed limbs. I've had too many days in the desert where I couldn't get the smell of blood off my hands from operating for hours in a tent in 120 degree heat. I can still smell it some days. Any action that puts more boots on the ground should be debated and analyzed very carefully because, in the current situation, there is the potential for a massive conflict. You can dismiss this with snark as doom and gloom but I choose to be more realistic. I have to be, because it affects me and my family. I will not support any politician, no matter their label, who pushes for a needless war. Do you have skin in the game? Do you understand what it's like to have the constant threat of deployment hanging over your head? Have you seen the effects of war up close and personal to the point that it affects you daily, even years after deployment? If not, then take your snark and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. I refuse to blindly support a politician just because they carry the label of Democrat.

[Fred Sanders]

27. Elite commandos volunteer for the role, don't they? Don't most soldiers?

The sun shines just fine in my not gloom and doom world, thanks for the concern!

[Docreed2003]

30. Then no you don't have a clue...

Yes "elite" forces will be the first on the ground. And then what? We've seen this script before. More troops will follow. Glad things are so sunny in your world that you can support putting boots on the ground and not have one ounce of concern for how it will affect your daily life. Your callousness is duly noted. If the powers that be continue to push us closer to war and the day comes where thousands of troops are in conflict, I hope you look back on your post and see how incredibly fucking pretentious and cold hearted you sound. Enjoy your sun, some of us don't have the same privilege. The least you could have done is acknowledge my original response and the impact that more war means to service members and their families.

[Live and Learn]

34. +10,000 nt

[JonLeibowitz]

43. +100,000. And thank you very much for your service. n/t

[Fairgo]

46. I appreciate your passion

You are talking to the wrong end of the horse.

Comfortably soft people who think war is a sport and politics is a game can say the most banal things and expect applause. They are numb with privilege and befuddled with their own entitlements. They truly have no idea how bad it can get. I hope they never find out. I hope you stay safe and far from the battlefield. We need your boots on this ground...and we need all those others back, now. There is so much building to be done here.

[Fred Sanders]

49. I understand war and it's horrors, but what war would there be without soldiers?

One of the great problems with America is how quickly it rushes to war everywhere in the world, while at home every sporting and major event is proceeded by a worship of war to soften up the national psyche for the next one. And soften up the minds of civilian volunteers to become soldiers by basically bribing them and hiding the tru horrors under mountains of cash and glitzy nationalistic propaganda.

Soldiers are being used as a pawns by an imperialistic nation in a massive and endless well funded sea to sea propaganda campaign that started 70 years ago and never ended - a campaign that institutionalizes war death and reduces it to marching bands and songs before sporting events that glorify war. Sometimes the Pentagon even pays for their war machine to be publically glorified!

And then when the soldiers are sent in to do their job, which involves getting shot at as well as doing the shooting, and the horrors of war are revealed, it is like the soldiers that come home barely existed.....I do not glorify soldiers or what they do, because that is psychological manipulation for glorifying war. I do glorify soldiers that come home and reject their service to war more than those that are proud of it.

"Thank you for your service". And what exactly was that service? Being the spear for America's endless war is as glorious as war itself.

[beam me up scottie]

31. So it's okay to send them to die in vain because they volunteered to serve their country?

What is wrong with you?

[Martin Eden]

48. Exactly. n/t

[Scootaloo]

36. Well, don't go wasting your beautiful mind thinking about body bags then

[artislife]

38. Pretty flippant there. nt

[Katashi_itto]

47. As a vet, I find you pathetic.

[riderinthestorm]

29. +10000 nt

[Docreed2003]

32. Thanks!

[sadoldgirl]

33. Thank you for posting.

Unfortunately most of us do not have the slightest
idea of what it is like to suffer during and from these
wars. We are allowed to sit in a cocoon protected by
the M$M as well as the politicians.
I wished you and your fellow sufferers would make this
into a very good OP.

There is an old word:
Old men decide, and young men die.

Thanks again.

[Docreed2003]

39. Thank you...

I actually wrote a diary on dailykos a couple years ago about my experience in Afghanistan. Maybe I'll dig it up for Veterans Day and post it here

[rhett o rick]

25. The doom and gloom that many Americans are facing today is the fault of Conservative politics.

Obama promised Hope and Change but he turned out to be almost as Conservative as Clinton.

Our only hope for change is Sanders. HRC will give us 8 more years of growing poverty levels.

[Scootaloo]

35. First, the OP said nothing of the sort.

Second, you can't stand there and reprimand people for daring to say something about The Leaders Of The Party and claim to be some sort of gatekeeper of liberalism. These two things don't go together.

[sadoldgirl]

6. Hi, elleng, I apologize for omitting O'Malley.

Here is the thing though.Neither he nor Bernie
know the power of the Mic /CIA in terms that
HRC does a) from the WH b) as SOS. It is quite possible
that she knows that whoever gets to the WH
will not be given a choice. That is the credit I have
to give her.

BTW, since I read up quite a bit about the I/P
conflict, I think that O'Malley is not only giving
the same statement as the government, but that
he also wears pink glasses.

Israel has decided to take it all, and no Western
power will be able to stop it. The only hope I see
is to insist on equal rights for all, who live there.

Thanks for your post!

[elleng]

15. Thanks for the post, sadoldgirl.

DU really needs to get into policy weeds, and seems to have failed to do so recently.

You're right, hrc knows a lot from the inside, but what appear to be her inherent inclinations are dangerous, imo.

Bibi seems to be pissing off many, in the international community, and the right Dem president should take advantage of that:

"What is in the best interest of Israel's security and the Palestinian people, and the United States of America, is a two-state solution. And however elusive it may seem to us, however many smart people say the time has passed for that sort of reconciliation or that long-term solution, I continue to believe that it is our best hope," O'Malley said."

"I believe we need a foreign policy of engagement and collaboration with like-minded people around the world. That's going to require new alliances," O'Malley said.

[JonLeibowitz]

44. +1, thank you for debating issues, not feelings.

It's like the complement to "Actions, not words", don't you think

I hope to have future discussions with you about the issues.

G'night!

[elleng]

61. You're welcome, Jon;

it's what I do.

Yes, many future discussions, and I'm often at this Group, where a lot of info is available: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1281

[Cali_Democrat]

10. The whole Middle East is not blowing up.

Hyperbole.

[Docreed2003]

24. It's a powder keg...

Waiting to go off. To dismiss that is foolish

[polly7]

53. It was already set off with the invasion of Iraq. nt.

[polly7]

52. Really????

MILLIONS AND MILLIONS have either been killed in horrible ways or maimed and scarred for life - physically and mentally, been made refugees in countries now being infiltrated by IS and their 'ally' supported barbarism ...... are suffering horrible, hopeless lives as refugees and dying by the thousands trying to escape.

Whole infrastructures have been destroyed, hospitals, schools, priceless artifacts, - LIVES. Children are being born deformed because of chemicals used in the 'war' and what's been left behind, had limbs blown off finding the cute little cluster bombs laying about, cancer rates have risen astronomically - thousands and thousands of children are living with PTSD and constant anxiety - with NO resources or help. Women who had previously been doctors, lawyers, teachers - now living under the terror of radicals in religion who rape and murder at will.

Country after country - Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria ......

Bet you're glad you don't live there, eh??

[JaneyVee]

11. There's probably no turning back now, yet.

I have a feeling the intel we the public don't know is much more complex or Obama would've ended them by now.

[sadoldgirl]

13. Yes, this is why I worry.

If the POTUS gets totally slanted info, which both
of these departments are capable of, then he would
make a different decision than s/he would otherwise.

[JaneyVee]

17. You can only rely on intel. And intel has...

The best interests of the soldiers in mind.

[Hydra]

19. *roflmao*

Yeah, best interests of the troops comes in at least third on most strategic intel reports.

[Mnpaul]

21. But we didn't rely on the intel

The actual intel on Iraq's WMDs was very slim. Few bothered to check it out. And we didn't have the best interests of the soldiers in mind when we sent them in on flimsy intel with Vietnam era equipment.

[riderinthestorm]

55. OMG?! You really believe the "intel" cares about the soldiers?!

I guess that's what a Hillary Clinton supporter has to believe in order to justify her support of our disastrous ME efforts. And her proclamations of further open ended involvement there.

HRC's positions on continuing the WOT and the WOD despite the obviously bogus "intel" about both, that even this rural farmer can see from the fields of IL, are probably THE biggest reasons I'll support Sanders.

SMH at HRC supporters blind loyalty. ..

[MrMickeysMom]

14. No doubt the same three dimensional chess game...

A very long-running game ... yep, yep, yeah, yeah, that's it, alright.

[Todays_Illusion]

16. I don't think the whole ME is blowing up and the real danger is not from nations

but the now largest in history private money creating disturbances faster than the governments can work out agreeable agreements.


I agree that Obama was and is sincere and about no wars, he inherited two, and pretending heis responsible for Syria, is bat shit insane if anyone even bothers to remember that 2013 push to get anice war going, and the President said:

"Let's ask Congress," the same war mongering Congress demanding war, did NOT even vote on the issue before they ran home to hide for summer vacation and campaign funding.

[pinstikfartherin]

18. I'm giving you a rec just because...

this is one of the very few threads not filled with a cesspool of hate in GDP (as of my post). Thank you.

As for your post...I think the war machine is powerful and that HRC has experienced that as SOS; however, I am not sure that her experience is something that is such a great thing. Obama most likely did want out of the ME but saw the reality of the cluster that it is after he'd been in office and had to make tough decisions. Do I think we could do and have done some things differently? Yes. This is why I do not support HRC on foreign policy. IMO, she would be more of the same, and I want some fresh thinking on how to tackle the ME. I fear that she would be likely to jump into more conflict in the ME rather than trying to find a balance in intervention.

The fact is that foreign policy is complicated. You can read all day long about the physical conflicts, ideological conflicts, and conflicts of interest in the ME and still not get the full picture. I don't know what the real answer is, but I just don't think that the same old song and dance is it.

[sadoldgirl]

26. Thank you for posting.

My fear is really that of a steadily ongoing war,
and the fact that out of the drafting situation, only
a small percentage of the population will suffer.
The rest will be allowed to ignore it due to our
miserable M$M. And the financial burden of our
country will be enormous.

[pinstikfartherin]

28. I think that's part of the problem.

We can ignore it, so we don't take it as seriously as we should. After so many years it's just become an accepted part of life and most people don't think of the costs, both human and financial, of our continued conflicts.

[Hydra]

20. I think thr MIC is unstoppable from inside the system

But I do not for a moment think President Obama was sincere about shutting the wars down. He signed on the dotted line for Poppy Bush to protect Bushco and keep everything going behind the scenes. He will be inducted into the 1% and his kids will be safe, just like Bill and Hillary did.

The cost to everyone else is and will continue to be horrendous.

[Samantha]

37. I believe Hillary is very hawkish because she feels a need to prove

that being a woman does not make her soft on national security.

Sam

[JonLeibowitz]

45. Interestingly, Jim Webb had the opposite concern

His argument in a discussion at the Council on Foreign Relations, was that Hillary would be more dangerous than Jeb (for example), because everyone is wary of Bush as a hawk. In contrast many still think of Democrats as doves. It was an interesting point.

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. Everyone on this board knows why the ME is imploding. It's because of the IRAQ INVASION.

Saddam Hussein was, no doubt, a brutal dictator, but he at least had control (as brutal as it was) over Iraq.

Saddam was SECULAR. He absolutely despised the religious fundamentalists and made damn sure they never got a foothold in his country because they would have gone after HIM because he was secular and they hated that. They would have ousted him and he knew it.

The ME was relatively stable, except for Israel /Palestine which, as long as I have lived, has NEVER been peaceful. So, what happens? 911 happens and Bin Laden from AFGHANISTAN and terrorists from SAUDI ARABIA are the known attackers. We go after them in Afghanistan, which was legitimate, but then the insane WARMONGERS, Cheney and his puppet, Bush, decide our OIL IS UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN'S SAND. Saddam had NOTHING to do with 911. Nothing.

Everyone knew they were seizing the moment to get their OIL that just happened to be under Iraq's sand. There were no WMD. There was no yellowcake uranium. There were no aluminum tubes to be used for make nuclear weapons. There were ZERO nuclear facilities. They were all LIES and everyone knew it.

Invading Iraq was the CAUSE of the entire ME imploding. Once Saddam was gone, the religious fundamentalist terrorists groups were able to take over and NOW WE HAVE ISIS!

I would bet if you asked what's left of the Iraqi citizens if they would prefer to have Saddam Hussein in power or do they prefer the LIVING HELL they're living now? Every damn one if them would choose Saddam Hussein!

EVERYTHING HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST RIGHT NOW IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE USA INVADING IRAQ. WHY DID WE INVADE IRAQ?

BECAUSE HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON VOTED FOR INVADING IRAQ!

Everyone knew that if you voted for that resolution, you were giving the INSANE WARMONGERS permission to invade Iraq and that's exactly what they did - so save your hollow excuses of "that was to be a "last resort"" because EVERYONE knew the game. EVERYONE knew they were going to invade, come hell or high water.

So, at the very least, HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON has VERY poor judgment and reading comprehension skills OR she didn't bother to take the time to do her homework before casting her MOST IMPORTANT VOTE OF HER LIFE which could kill millions of innocent Iraqis and thousands of our soldiers OR SHE'S JUST A WARMONGER and likes being an AUTHORITARIAN tough woman to prove her mettle. IMCPO, she's a WARMONGER. She wanted us involved in the Ukraine /Russia mess, "We came, we saw, he died *GIGGLE* GIGGLE* GIGGLE*" in Libya and took out ANOTHER SECULAR RULER and now she gave us ISIS.

The Middle East mess lays at the feet if every single person who voted for the IWR. THAT includes HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. She shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the codes!

[polly7]

57. Great post. nt.

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Thanks polly7.

It's unbelievable how many people choose to ignore Clinton's involvement in what's happening in the ME now. She had a hand in giving the world ISIS and there's no denying that fact. Now she wants MORE war. I'm sick of it and so are the majority of people in this country.

I prefer Bernie's approach. Negotiate. War is a LAST resort.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[HereSince1628]

51. Every administration wants leverage in international relationships...war and threat of war

makes -foreign- peoples desire our military support. Getting support from us is a bargaining advantage for the US.

So, it's no accident that the US has and maintains it's massively first-in-the-world arms advantage.

The violence in the ME is keeping Americans mostly in the dark about the use of the US Military "pivot to the East" to influence sweeping international trade agreements among nations whose commerce depends upon the South China Sea.

[Truprogressive85]

58. Dear Candidates

If you are not wiling to send your own children or grandchildren into battle stop sending other people's kids

Syria - Assad is not going anywhere
Libya - Civil war has already begin to break out, more refugees will be created
Yemen - The Saudis ( our"partners&quot are killing more civilians than so called rebels
Turkey - we support a guy who will do whatever to keep power
Egypt- Sisi is the new Mubarak ( with out support and aide), he is putting in jail, torturing opposition
Iraq - is basically f**** beyond repair unless we stay there for 100 years

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. War! It's the American Way! Wave flag here.