Bernie is not a Democrat. What gives his supporters the right to criticize the super-delegates

[hill2016]

Last edited Sun Nov 1, 2015, 12:52 AM - Edit history (1)

which have been part of the nomination process since 1984?

You can't change the rules this late in the game just because you don't like the results.


Some posts claim that he couldn't get on the ballot in Vermont as a Democrat.

Here's the last GE ballot from Vermont. Clearly shows someone running as a Democrat for the House of Representatives.

https://www.sec.state.vt.us/media/616758/2014-GE-Sample-Ballot.pdf


If I just join a society, do I as a newcomer and outsider have the right to criticize the election process? Or would I be taken more seriously if I have "paid my dues" and have some seniority?

[JackInGreen]

1. Link?

Or...wha?

I mean, are you thinking we should call the primary off or he should bow out because the super delegates have decide some....4+/5ish months away?

[jfern]

2. This is probably a recycled attack from 2008

They figured they'd pre-emptively use it again now.

[JackInGreen]

6. I'm thinkin

Of course they can't hit the man so they hit the crowd and hope to instigate confrontation, s'all good.

[beam me up scottie]

8. It's best to ignore the flamebait.

If you don't feed them they go away.

[JackInGreen]

10. True

My bad...been responding then hitting the back button all night.

[beam me up scottie]

13. I'm guilty of it too.

I picked your post so that hopefully others will see us discussing it and decide it's best to let this sink.

[yuiyoshida]

179. Yes correct!

The only way to make a fire worse, is to fan the flames.

[beam me up scottie]

213. Some ops don't deserve a reply.

And that goes for all sides.

After I respond to a few folks today I'll go back to following my own advice. Hopefully.

[yuiyoshida]

215. I would just rather

hide behind Skittles

[beam me up scottie]

216. Lol! Good plan!

[hill2016]

17. I'm thinking

that his supporters shouldn't complain about super delegates going to Hillary because it's part of the nomination process. Has been for 30 years.

[frylock]

28. Yeah, well tough shit.

[litlbilly]

109. my sentiments excactly.

[JackInGreen]

38. I havnt heard anyone say that they oughtent on thei

go to her if they choose (differences in opinion on their choice not withstanding ). I HAVE heard them/us/me complain that it's been played as 'election over we/win you loose, the primary is over' by many hillary supporters, or if not stated outright then alluded to as being case closed, inauguration planned.
Now, argue all you'd like bit I'm gonna let your thread be now, I regret giving it space. Happy Samhein

[Phlem]

45. holy fucking shit.

And we shouldn't complain about Kings and Queens cause that the way it's been done for ages!

Really!?

Because the stupid is really starting to hurt.

[Thinkingabout]

55. Have you decided who you are supporting? This would be the same, if you have made a decision

why can't they make a decision this early.

[djean111]

143. Because it renders the voting moot.

And if it happens, I will not be voting.

[Thinkingabout]

147. If giving an opinion about which candidate renders the voting moot, there will be very few

people who post here on DU who will vote. There are plenty here who voices their preference of a candidate, I have endorsed Clinton and I will be voting for her. The people who are going to be superdelegates are also eligible to vote. The superdelegates are going to be voting in the Convention. It will be the combination of the dedicated and super delegates. There are many more dedicated delegates. I do not want to squash opinions here or other places since it infringes on freedom of speech.

[BlueCaliDem]

178. Super-delegates are only useful in a close race between two presidential nominees.

This race will not be close. Not by a long shot.

Hillary has done it right this time: she's hedged her bets - just as Obama had done in 2008.

In 2008, their vote totals were extremely close. Extremely. IIRC, it was just a matter of 500,000 or so. That's when super delegates can matter.

I don't believe you have anything to worry about in this election.

[bravenak]

3. He cannot tell Democrats how to run their primaries. Not his place. He did not join OUR party.

[jfern]

9. He's been a member of the Democratic caucus for almost 25 years

And has supported every Democratic Presidential nominee for at least that long.

[bravenak]

12. That does not make him a member of the Democratic party.

[jfern]

14. Who cares? He's more of a Democrat than some 3rd way hawk.

[hill2016]

20. then

why isn't he part of the party?

Aren't the people in the party what makes the party not the people outside the party?

[jfern]

23. Well lets see

He's been a member of the Democratic caucus for almost 25 years. He's supported every Democratic nominee for that long, possibly longer. Vermont doesn't have party registration. He's been involved with Democratic primaries and caucuses, including helping Jesse Jackson win the 1988 Democratic caucus. What more is there for him to do?

[pinstikfartherin]

51. Apparently swear a blood oath.

That's right! You must swear an oath to Lord Jackass, sign your name in blood, and vow to never include someone who will not do the same...even if they support the same ideas. It's all in the handbook.

Seriously, this stance is that kind of stupid.

[LuvLoogie]

53. Sounds like shackin' up to me...

[hill2016]

61. run as a Democrat

Here's the last Vermont GE Ballot. Shows people actually running as Democrats.


https://www.sec.state.vt.us/media/616758/2014-GE-Sample-Ballot.pdf

[merrily]

123. In 2014. He's running as a Democrat in 2016.

[JonLeibowitz]

134. Bernie consistently wins the democratic nomination in Vermont

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Vermont,_2012#Democratic_primary

If he is good enough for Vermonters to repeatedly nominate him, that is good enough for me.

But then I never saw the point of party identity.

[merrily]

103. He is part of the party. When are you going to stop repeating the falsehood that he is not?

[MohRokTah]

26. Nope, really, he's not. He's nothing like being a Democrat.

Mostly because he's never been a Democrat.

[bravenak]

52. He is not a democrat

[merrily]

69. The DNC obviously thinks otherwise and seems to trump the unsupported opinion of some DUers

on that point.

[Sheepshank]

76. I don't believe I've read anywhere where the DNC says Bernie is a Dem

And how are DU persons promoting an unsupported opinion that Bernie isn't a Dem? The fact of the matter is that Bernie really isn't a Dem.

[merrily]

84. He would not have been in the debates for Democrats if the DNC did not consider him a Dem. They also

sent out a fundraising email the day he announced he was running for the Democratic nomination. He is described by eveyone as a candidate for the Democratic nomination. How do you NOT get that the DNC has recognized him as a Democrat?

And how are DU persons promoting an unsupported opinion that Bernie isn't a Dem?

\
HUH? How does anyone make any unsupported claim? By stating it or, in this case, posting it without supporting it, much as you, bravenak and the OP of this thread have.

Is this really the extent of your thought process?

[deutsey]

145. It's mind boggling that you even have to point out something so fricking obvious n/t

[merrily]

241. I know, right?

#Sanderssupporterssosaneitsapleasure.

[Sheepshank]

149. Courtesies and politeness isn't the same thing as announcing Bernie is a Democrat

That you can't the.l the difference is astounding.

There is a reason they have never said the words. A very very good reason.

[merrily]

209. Courtesy, LOL! Please try to grasp Vermont voter registration law. It's relatively simple.

See Reply 16.

So is the concept that the DNC does not promote candidates on its website unless they are Democrats. Ditto allowing them participation the DNC's Presidential nomination process. I get that some poeple have difficulty admitting they've been so wrong for so long on this issue, but this is ridiculous.

[Sheepshank]

211. Bernie could have run on th Rep ticket too, right?

He asked the DNC, they said he could run on the Dem ticket. He could have run as an Indie. I don't understand how that makes him a Dem, regardless of how often and how rude and repetitive are those that keep tryong to tell me Bernie is a Dem.

I've yet to see Bernie ever state that he is a Dem, I've yet to see the DNC state he is a Dem.

[merrily]

214. Bernie never asked the DNC for permission to run as a Democrat, nor did he have to.

You just made that up. You're flailing, apparently out of some kind of highly misplaced hatred of Sanders. It's not a good look. For your own sake, stop.

[yuiyoshida]

183. I been told if you are voting for Bernie

you are probably not a real democrat, and if you are not a real democrat, what are you doing here? Oh...and I been told ASIANS don't vote. This has been a lovely fucking Presidential campaign on DU. Many times, I have felt like I should walk away from here, but some people would enjoy that too much. I am staying. Tough fortune cookies

[merrily]

231. Hmmm. Just posted this in reply to someone else.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026592890

Tough fortune cookies? Never heard that before. I love it!

According to some, none of the demographic groups that have been identified as supporting Bernie vote.

[yuiyoshida]

232. OH i didn't see that!!!

I voted!! I been told many times "Asians don't vote", I would love to find out who started that Meme, and I bet you they weren't Asian. The one that says "POC won't vote for Bernie bothers me..." who ever is running with that is mistaken, or delusional!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128068417

High fives Merrily!!

[merrily]

237. I am so sorry that you had to read a racist statement like that anywhere, let alone on DU.

Great thread. Thanks. I will post on it in a few minutes.

[merrily]

93. P.S. You might check the home page of democrats. org right now.

Suggests we we make the next President a Democrat, right next to a photo of the five debaters (only one of whom started his or her political career as a Democrat, btw).

[Sheepshank]

150. But where..anywhere have the words been used from DNC that Bernie is a Dem

You are skating all around it, all sort of hinting, all sorts of presumptions, but never producing the actual words. You won't find it for very good reason, they simply cannot pronounce something that isn't fact.

[dsc]

156. that is baldly false

O'Malley by any standard did so. I would also argue that Hillary but could see one technically counting her leading the high school GOP as beginning her political career. But again, O'Malley was a Democrat for his entire career by any definition of the word.

[merrily]

212. That is correct about O'Malley. Hillary was a Republican beyond high school though, even

by her own account, which I do not totally believe. Some of Hillary's finest moments seem occur in stories that she tells that no one can either prove or disprove. Or in stories that she tells that others easily disproved.

I will edit my post as to O'Malley. Just an observation: you could have said simply, "O"Malley did" and I would also have edited.

[VanillaRhapsody]

234. You might want to check the Sanders campaign wiki page

it doesn't call him a Democrat there either....

[Mnpaul]

88. So does DU

<----------- click on Democrats over there and what do you see?

third one down right under the President

[merrily]

95. Good point, but the DNC trumps even Skinner.

[Sheepshank]

151. Nope...only Bernie supporters try to press the meme that

Bernie is a dem.

As for his inclusion the the left side bar.... He is attempting to woo the Dem vote and the DNC has permitted him to run against other Dems. All of that presumably to avoid a run that would split the vote should he run as an indie. It's political strategy. Bernie has denigrated and insults Dems, but now wants their votes. Look it up, it's not that hard to find, if you really want real information rather than regurgitated falsities.

[Mnpaul]

154. Why don't you look this up

Bernie has a better record voting with the party than most other Dems. He has the best record in his time in the House and is near the top in the Senate.

I want someone to speak up and criticize politicians who vote for foolish policy. I don't want the Democratic party to become like the Republican party marching in lockstep with the party policy. If the party is promoting crap like chained CPI, I want somebody to stand up and say hell no.

[Sheepshank]

155. As a independent socialist it makes sense that Dem platform

Closely aligns with his platforms. It's expedient to vote Dem, rather that Republican that likely doesn't align closely with any of Bernie's ideologies. Still he is not a dem.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/08/bernie-democratic-party-ideologically

[Mnpaul]

161. Why are you avoiding the term "Democratic Socialist"

Which is what Bernie proclaims himself to be.

In the article you linked Colmes makes no sense either. If he scorns the party, why does he have one of the best records voting with it?

[Sheepshank]

162. I didn't avoid anything

For the purposes of this thread, I used Independent, because that is what he is.

[Mnpaul]

165. You used Independent Socialist

and I don't believe he has ever claimed that term

[Sheepshank]

174. He is an Independent and a Socialist

If it helps, pretend there is a comma between the words I used. I did not go to any pains to create a new political philosophy as you are attempting to suggest, even after I expalined once to you. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself ad nauseum to persons who deliberately chose to not understand. You have a good day now and harass some one else with your deliberate misunderstandings.

[merrily]

235. Democratic Socialist who used to run as an Independent does not conflate to

Independent Socialist. Ordinarily, I'd add "But you knew that." Given your other posts on this thread, though, I hesitate to assume anything about what you do not know.

[Sheepshank]

248. As I'd already mentioned, I'm not attempting to create a new political philosophy.

The fact of the matter is Bernie is an Independent and he is a Socialist. If it helps, you may put a little comma between Independent and Socialist, so you can better understand.

[merrily]

249. Apparently, you have your own definition of "fact." Bernie is a Democratic Socialist running for the

Democratic nomination for President as a Democrat, which is the only way anyone can run for the Democratic nomination for President.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=752861

Those are facts, as dictionaries define that word. The fairy tales you've been making up are not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=754846

[Sheepshank]

252. Bernie has Unequivocally stated he is NOT a DEMOCRAT

See quote on my post 251.

He has never, ever walked that back and the DNC has never said Bernie is a Democrat. I simple don't understand what is so difficult to understand why there is so much posturing trying to press an untruth. I think it must either be a reflexive reaction to be oppositional to any Clinton supporter....or, more likely, it's a defensive reaction to cover a weak position.

[Karma13612]

225. How about we give his specific chosen identity, for this election:

since you are calling others to be painfully accurate, and criticizing on all points, great and small, you will need to be careful in your wording as well.

He is running on the democratic ticket and refers to himself as a Democratic Socialist.

And I don't think Bernie denigrates 'Democrats'.

What he does is criticize the blue-dog dems and DINO's and corporate dems, for what they are.

He doesn't denigrate the democratic electorate.

[Sheepshank]

251. Well if you don't think Bernie has denigrated Democrats

You clearly haven't done your own home work.
Here, let me get you started:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181

The long, troubled history of Bernie Sanders and the 'ideologically bankrupt' party whose White House nod he now seeks.

“I am extremely proud to be an independent,” he told the Associated Press seven months into his congressional career. “The fact that I am “I am extremely proud to be an independent,” he told the Associated Press seven months into his congressional career. “The fact that I am not a Democrat gives me the freedom to speak out on the floor of the House, to vote against both the Democratic and Republican proposals.”

He clarifies that he is NOT A DEMOCRAT

[treestar]

164. This one is just dumb, too

Bernie is not a Democrat so the idea he is more of a Democrat than the Democrats is inherently illogical.

I see this one repeated all the time - why do people think it's so effective? it's not. Pre-existing Democrats are never gong to buy the idea some Democrat is more of one than they are. Absurd to think this would get any traction.

[frylock]

30. Don't take the bait.

[VanillaRhapsody]

233. Caucussing WITH Democrats does not make you one....

and it certainly doesn't give you the right to complain how THEY run their party...

[merrily]

97. Where did Bernie tell Democrats how to run anything. And, yes, he did join, when he announced

for POTUS on the Democratic ticket.

You don't seem to understand how Vermont voter registration law works. See Reply 16 and sources cited in Reply 16.

[bravenak]

102. Someone on ignore must have replied. It kicked this post back up.

[polly7]

206. .................

[litlbilly]

110. Oh Booohooo. get over yourself. our party my ass

[bravenak]

111. I can't get over myself. I am too awesome. Thx.

[yuiyoshida]

186. Since you are my friend you are awesome!

Even if we disagree on candidates.. I will never let politics trump (God, I hate using that word) our friendship.

[bravenak]

239. Thank you!

[yuiyoshida]

240. :)

[m-lekktor]

189. lol

I'm glad to see you aren't suffering from low self esteem!

[bravenak]

238. Never!!!

I stopped that shit at 25.

[TheKentuckian]

259. He isn't, we are. Don't like it? That's unfortunate.

Please show my posts supporting super delegates.

[daleanime]

4. The same right all Americans enjoy....

I'm not a republican, but I have every right, indeed I would say the responsible, to criticize the clown car.

Or do you think Democrats should magically be excepted from the public?

[Armstead]

5. Nobody has a right to say anything if they don'lt support Clinton

Got it.

Sanders avoids being a spoiler by not running as a third party candidate, but by trying to bring some new input to the Democratic Party.

But since he is not a lifelong partisan, he has no right to speak.

Got it.

[redstateblues]

19. We all make our choices. Bernie chose to be

a Socialist. He's a good man but it's what he chose many years ago. If only Bernie Sanders supporters would follow his lead by not voting 3rd party but apparently many have chosen to take their balls and go home if Bernie doesn't win.

[Hydra]

54. I wasn't aware that being a socialist was a disqualifier for our party n/t

[merrily]

244. Passing that, Bernie is not a socialist.

[merrily]

242. Untrue. He chose to be a Democratic Socialist. But, you knew that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12806844

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12779483

[mythology]

7. I don't remember him saying anything about them

Some of his supporters here have complained, but those were some spurious conspiracies that in theory if Sanders wins the most delegates based on primary and caucus results, but the race is close enough that super delegates could vote for Clinton to overturn the race.

Sanders is a big boy, he understands the rules. He may not like all of them such as the number of debates, but he's also gotten a fair amount of attention for his positions and excited a lot of supporters. That's a good thing if the party can incorporate that into the party.

[Todays_Illusion]

11. I am a long time registered Democratic voter and I have as much right for a say as any Hillary

supporter.

[hill2016]

15. how long have you been

speaking out against the super delegates being part of the nomination process?

[merrily]

22. Irrelevant. Constitutional rights are not waived by passage of time.

How long have you been in favor of suppression of political speech and undemocratic institutions, including within your own political party?

[MohRokTah]

33. Show me where in the consitution it bans super delegates. eom

[merrily]

47. Read the OP again. And maybe try to follow a line of reasoning.

[Cali_Democrat]

141. You might want to read the Constitution

Political parties get to determine their own way of nominating somebody for President.

In fact, the constitution makes no mention of political parties.

Do some research.

[merrily]

217. Oooh, what a condescending suggestion! Especially for one so utterly misplaced!

Of course, the Constitution says nothing political parties because they did not exist when the Constitution was written. But, I'm puzzled. Where did I say that the Constitution mentioned political parties?

If you find a misstatement I've actually made about the Constitution anywhere on this board since I signed up, I'll give you a prize.

Meanwhile, please see Reply 47 because another poster already tried to pretend my post said things about the Constitution that my post did not say; and I declined his offer, much as I am declining yours to do the same thing.

[Cali_Democrat]

220. Political parties existed before the inception of the United States.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Educate yourself before you reply to a post and end up looking foolish.

[merrily]

221. The Constitution does not have extra territorial reach. And, again, please see Reply 47.

This article presents the historical development and role of political parties in United States politics, and outlines more extensively the significant modern political parties. Throughout most of its history, American politics have been dominated by a two-party system. However, the United States Constitution has always been silent on the issue of political parties; at the time it was signed in 1787, there were no parties in the nation. Indeed, no nation in the world had voter-based political parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States

[jeff47]

167. Since 1992, when I turned 18.

Now, am I allowed to have an opinion, or do you think "shut up and follow orders" will win my vote?

[Todays_Illusion]

219. You complaint is directed at Democratic supporters of Bernie Sanders not how long one

must have been officially registered as Democratic or member of a local Democratic org.

[merrily]

16. Bernie is a Democrat or he would be ineligible to run for the Democratic nomination.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128018753

Not sure when that false comment will stop being repeated on this board.

Passing that, I am a Democrat and I have been protesting super delegates as undemocratic since I first learned about them. The idea that my rights as a Democrat are somehow limited because I support Bernie for the Democratic nomination is nonsensical.

For that matter, my rights under the Constitution of the United State of America include the ability to criticize those parts of our electoral process that are undemocratic.

My goodness. What won't some people say anymore?

[hill2016]

24. hm...

what about this:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/about

Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

[merrily]

29. My prior post, which you seem to have ignored, addressed that.

If you feel free to ignore my posts, why in hell should I dignify yours?

[hill2016]

49. which previous post number

is that?

[Todays_Illusion]

222. I think we are attempting to reason with topic changing click bait conservative disruptors. Who seem

to outnumber traditional liberal Democratic on the Democratic Underground site.

[merrily]

223. They do not outnumber traditional Democrats on this site. Far from it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026592890*

What some refer to as "the Swarm" can give the impression that they outnumber is, but more empirical data does not bear that out.

They are not all conservatives, though, IMO, many do a darned good imitation!

I hasten to add that, since that poll was taken, a number of traditional Democrats have ceased posting here. I miss their intelligent posts, but it is what it is.

Glad to meet you!

[Todays_Illusion]

253. Hi thanks for the encouraging reply. nt

[hill2016]

63. here's the last Vermont ballot

shows people running as Democrats

https://www.sec.state.vt.us/media/616758/2014-GE-Sample-Ballot.pdf

Why didn't Sanders run as a Democrat before?

[merrily]

67. Running as a Democrat before is not required to run as a Democrat in 2016. Nor does

anything I posted say it was a requirement. He has been the Vermont Democratic nominee for Senate several times before, though.

You still don't get that your decision and criteria relative to who is or who is not a Democrat does nto trump the decision of the Democratic National Committee? Which part of that did you not understand?

Moreover, your original point was what gives Bernie's supporters a right to criticize.

You still don't get how wrong that OP is, either?

[hill2016]

71. as a newcomer and outsider

why do you think he should have any influence in how the DNC runs its nomination process?

[merrily]

90. Make up your mind. Is he a newcomer or an outsider? He can't be both.

[Scootaloo]

18. I am a Democrat. I can criticize whatever I damn well please.

As for Sanders, he has been welcomed onto the ticket by the chair of the DNC and the party at large. I would suggest you take it up with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, but evidently you don't believe in questioning the apparatus of the party on things.

Kind of a pickle you've got there for yourself.

[hill2016]

65. as an outsider

so he/his supporters shouldn't complain if the nomination process doesn't work in his favor.

[Scootaloo]

70. He's on the Democratic ballot with the blessing of the Democratic party, running as a Democrat

If this is a problem for you, complain to the democratic party about the Democratic party.

'Course that would require you to do something you are insisting other democrats are not allowed to do. Kind of par for the course, innit?

[Sheepshank]

152. On the Dem ticket...but not as a Dem since he has never declared himself to be a Dem

In fact he insulted Dems. So there is that, unless he evolved or something since those statements.

On second thoughts, he hasn't evolved from his earlier insults.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/08/bernie-democratic-party-ideologically

In an interview with Politico on the Senate subway, Sanders didn't walk away from his criticism of Democrats-although he insisted he has developed over his long career a strong relationship with the party in Vermont, in Washington and the nation. Asked whether he still believed the party is "ideologically bankrupt," Sanders answered by not answering the question.

[Scootaloo]

157. Again. Take it up with the party.

They're the ones who have welcomed him to the ballot and the campaign. if you really have a provblem, go whine about how the Democratic party is... what, betraying you?

[Sheepshank]

158. You are confusing two issues

1. You claim Bernie is a Dem because the DNC permitted him to run on the Dem ticket. They had political election reasons for that, as well you know. But the bottom line is that Bernie has never declared himself a Dem and the DNC has never verbalized that Bernie is a Dem.

And

2. You seem to think I care greatly that Bernie has been permitted to run on the Dem ticket.

You are wrong on both points.

[Scootaloo]

159. I'm telling you that the party has welcomed him onto the ballot

And that if you want to bitch about that, you need to take it up with the party.

But then according to the OP and yourself, bitching about the party isn't fucking allowed, is it?

[Sheepshank]

160. Why would I "bitch" about something to the DNC that I don't think is a big deal?

And why must you use such a sexist term to make a point?

[merrily]

245. If you don't think it's a big deal, why have you been posting about it for two days?

[Sheepshank]

246. Because regardless of the DNC's political maneuverings, Bernie isn't a Dem

And why are you following me around for 2 days? Why is it so important for you to argue every point I make?

[merrily]

247. Deflection fail. Either it's important enough to you or it isn't.

If it's important enough to post about for two days, it's important enough for one call.

[Jim Lane]

138. I agree but go further. I'm not a Westboro Baptist Church member but I criticize them, too.

WHATEVER I damn well please!

[pinebox]

21. Myth 4!

Myth 4: Bernie doesn’t deserve our support because he isn’t a Democrat.
Bernie Sanders is an Independent, but it’s a really stupid reason not to support him. Bernie Sanders has caucused with the Democrats his entire congressional career spanning 34 years. He was chosen to chair the Veterans Committee by the Democrats. But most importantly, Bernie Sanders actually is closer to the Democratic Party platform than any other candidate in the race. Some Democrats are D in name only (DINO’s), and act more like Republicans. The issues we stand for as Democrats are on par with the issues Bernie Sanders stands for. He is the embodiment of an FDR New Deal Democrat. The American Political Spectrum and how Dems have allowed their party to shift right http://plus.google.com/+OleOlson/posts/jdRFsKh6vYN

[hill2016]

25. aren't

the people who are actually in the party the ones who define what the party is?

[pinebox]

34. nope

[MohRokTah]

36. Yep. eom

[Ed Suspicious]

57. Nope. eom

[merrily]

37. The people within the Party with actual authority to decide who is a Democrat have decided Bernie is

a Democrat. See Reply #16. You don't seem to respect their authority or their decision. Too bad.

[pinebox]

39. bingo.

[saltpoint]

87. Agree with this. eom

[yuiyoshida]

192. I second this

emotion

[merrily]

46. When he ran for the Senate, he was an Indy. Running for POTUS, he is a Democrat or he would

not be able to run for the Democratic nomination for POTUS. He switched and his switch has been recognized by everyone with actual authority within the Democratic Party to recognize it. In this respect, he is not different from Webb or Chafee, except that Sanders was never a Republican and always caucused with Democrats and only Democrats, unlike Chafee.

Please see Reply 16 for further info and links.

[saltpoint]

27. That would be the Constitution.

Sanders or anybody else can say whatever they want. He could criticize big money in politics, for example. Hillary Clinton could defend Planned Parenthood. Donald Trump could even threaten to build a bigot wall on the Mexican border. Elton John can draw the line at goat-fucking. You could even defend Super Delegates if you felt they deserved praise.

[NRaleighLiberal]

31. these flamebait OPs are great for building the ignore list. Otherwise, useless.

[JackInGreen]

42. Right?!

Done and done

[yuiyoshida]

191. I won't have an ignore list but

its funny how you start to see a pattern of information coming from the same members. I love everyone, even if there are some who hate me.

[NRaleighLiberal]

196. .

[yuiyoshida]

199. backatcha!

[sibelian]

32. Oh, who fucking GIVES a SHIT about fucking superdelegates

What have you got to contribute to how any of the candidates are going to the affect the lives of real fucking PEOPLE?

Superdelegates can go pound themselves up their asses.

Enough of this useless crap.

[frylock]

35. Who the fuck are you?

[merrily]

40. Bingo! Suddenly has more authority than the DNC to decide who is a Democrat! LOL!

[pinebox]

43. but....

[shenmue]

117. Anything less juvenile to say?

[frylock]

122. If you're defending the OP, I don't know that your judgment can be trusted..

to determine what is juvenile.

[Live and Learn]

41. I don't know, maybe the First Amendment.

By the way, he is running on the Democratic ticket so you really should cease your false narrative.

Lots of things we did in the past weren't correct. Super delegates aren't either.

Oh yeah, and by the way, according to some here using "Hill" is disrespectful.

[aidbo]

44. the right to criticize anything is my right as a U.S. American

[delrem]

48. wtf?????

from whence was this pulled?

We all know that Hillary Clinton is the only anointed Democrat.
We all know that she will command the super-delegates, just as she will command the DNC, the DLC, and the Party itself.
Nobody expects to "change the rules".
We're all watching.

[saltpoint]

50. Early on Hillary was a Goldwater girl.

We can't have Republicans running as Democrats, now can we.

If you decide Sanders is not a Democrat but an Independent, Hillary Clinton must abide by your same logic and withdraw from the race for the Democratic nomination.

[merrily]

62. Also went to a couple of Republican national conventions.

NONE of the five the Democratic candidates deemed eligible by the Democratic National Committee to run for the Democratic nomination for President in 2016 started his or her political career as a Democrat, not a one.

[saltpoint]

72. Yep. So by the original poster's own rules,

we have zero candidates running.

Fair's fair.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Where have you been???

I was just thinking about you the other day, my friend.

You were the first person to warmly welcome me to DU all those years ago.

[saltpoint]

79. Hey there. You

rock. You've rocked for a long time, in fact.

I'm not up to much because I'm in deep mourning over the demise of the Jeb! Bush campaign.

Not.

[beam me up scottie]

81. Yes, that was tragic.

And ---

[NanceGreggs]

73. So then Elizabeth Warren ...

... can never run as a Democrat either? (Ooops! Too late!)

"If you decide Sanders is not a Democrat but an Independent ..."

It's Bernie's decision, not the OP's or anyone else's. And his decision has been to NOT be a Democrat - and he has never denied that this IS his decision, and he stands by it.

It's always rather amazing to see BS supporters insisting he's a Democrat, when the man himself has staunchly insisted that he's not.

[saltpoint]

77. I think you know better than to make such

a specious argument.

He'll be on the ballot in New Hampshire as a Democrat.

That ought to stand as a clue to folks.

Warren was also a Republican. If Sanders is an Independent and by the OP's logic shouldn't criticize an operational feature of the Democratic Party then Hillary can't run at all, since she started out as a Republican. Doesn't seem like a real good plan to me.

I don't think Democratic primary voters would think it was either.

The OP's argument is shit-stirring and you know it.

[NanceGreggs]

89. HRC was a "Republican" ...

... when she was too young to register to vote. When she did register, she registered as a Democrat.

Running on the Democratic ticket does not make one a Democrat. BS himself has been adamant in stating that he is NOT a member of the Democratic Party.

Why you arguing with him? Does he not know his own mind?

[saltpoint]

99. Sorry, this is about candidacies. If Sanders is

on the ballot as a Democrat, Hillary Clinton can be on the ballot as a Democrat, too.

Why, hell, they can both run on whichever ticket will have them! See how it works?

George Wallace, back in his time, was a Democrat. Weighing the Democratic Party platform today, would you say he was more deserving of a place on our ballot than Clinton or Sanders or O'Malley?

Things shift. They shift necessarily. Events conspire to modify political purposes. That's true in the U.S. and everywhere else for some thousands of years.

The OP's argument is shit-stirring and you know it.

[NanceGreggs]

105. And I haven't replied to the OP.

I have replied to you.

And the point is that BS is not a member of the Party, by his own choice.

Whatever arguments can be made about the candidates' positions or policies is an open debate. But Bernie is NOT a member of the Democratic Party, and that is (by his own admission) a fact.

[saltpoint]

107. When you miss a point on purpose,

your purpose does not persuade.

Before Webb and Chafee dropped out there were five Democratic candidates on our debate stage.

Biden said he would not run, ending months of speculation.

Now there are three. Four if you count Lessig. Who's in effect invisible.

You are not replying to the OP because you know the OP's argument is shit-stirring. If you decided you wanted to take on the logic the OP is proposing, you would find yourself in need of supporting points to the argument.

As there aren't any, that would place you at a disadvantage.

[NanceGreggs]

112. I reply to posts ...

... as I choose, not as I am dictated to respond to.

Your argument was about BS being a Democrat. He's not. And you are the one who seems to not want to respond.

Bernie Sanders is NOT a member of the Democratic Party. That is the fact of the matter. THAT is what you chose to argue about, not me.

It seems that the facts have clearly placed you at a disadvantage.

If you have any links to show that BS has become a member of the Party, or has declared himself to BE a member of the Party, I will stand corrected.

[saltpoint]

113. Hard to say when your

critical thinking went awry, but they're clearly not present and accounted for.

You have no argument in support of the OP's position because the OP's position is shit-stirring.

Very disappointing that you should have both hands on the same spoon. You used to be a lot more fair in the arena of ideas.

[NanceGreggs]

120. As I said ...

... I didn't respond to the OP, and did not engage the OP in discussion.

I responded to you, and attempted to engage you in discussion.

You made statements about BS being a Democrat - I have pointed out that he is not.

So why do you keep bringing up the OP, instead of directly addressing my responses to YOU?

[saltpoint]

121. It would be my impression that the

fucking thread respond to an original post.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You can't cherry-pick points as if content were not related.

Or, in your case, I guess you're doing it anyway.

Your call.

[NanceGreggs]

125. Long time DU tradition ...

Sometimes people respond to the OP, sometimes people respond to posts within a thread.

I chose the latter. I responded to what YOU said, not what the OP said.

And I keep wondering why you keep trying to deflect from what YOU said, and what I responded to.

What points in YOUR posts have I "cherry-picked"? You said BS was a Democrat - I said he wasn't.

I've backed up my post with FACTS - where are yours?



PS: Saying "but what about the OP" is not a presentation of facts. It is a poor attempt to deflect from the obvious - you have NO facts to back up your assertion that BS is a Democrat.

[saltpoint]

126. Thanks for your input

this evening.

[NanceGreggs]

129. And yours.

I just never figured you for the "forget what I said because I have no facts to back it up - so let's talk about what the OP said instead" type.

[Cha]

131. Me either, Nance. So what Hillary was a Goldwater girl before she could vote? What in the world

does who she was in high school have to do with the OP?

[merrily]

226. Several untrue statements in your post, NanceGreggs.

[Blue_In_AK]

91. Hey, it's Old Crusoe!

How ya doing? Haven't seen you in ages.

[saltpoint]

92. Blue, howdy-do and all

good tidings right back atcha.

Doin' fine. But as indicated earlier, I just haven't been myself since the Jeb! campaign began swirling the drain.

And this after he took the trouble to get those smart-guy glasses.

[Blue_In_AK]

94. I know.

It is such a pity.

[saltpoint]

100. Evidently Jeb! though he had this one in the bag.

He's finding out that things have changed a bit.

It's hard out there for a privileged rich plutocrat.

[Dr. Strange]

166. saltpoint!

What a pleasant post-Halloween surprise!

[saltpoint]

171. Dr. Strange! In the flesh.

Or in the cyber-flesh, as it were.

Howdy-do and warm tidings.

And say, that Jim Morrison guy sure does write some heavy lyrics, am I right?

[Dr. Strange]

172. Morrison did indeed write some heavy lyrics.

Including those to "People Are Strange".

I wonder if that song might make a cameo in the Doctor Strange movie?

[saltpoint]

173. Good question. I am looking

forward to that film. Wasn't sure who they'd cast as the good doctor, but on balance, I think they made a good call.

Good to see you knockin' around these parts, Doctor.

[highprincipleswork]

56. So you like super-delegates? Isn't that special? The whole process is exceedingly special.

The whole process, especially this year, to select our best representative is really very special, and especially undemocratic. But some seem to like that. Perhaps it's because their candidate is the best-known, their candidate is ahead.

Have they looked at the DNC fund-raising lately? Have they viewed election results in recent years? Not a lot to crow about.

I suppose Debbie Wasserman Schultz thinks it's just fine. Others may feel it's just fine. They may even celebrate.

Hiding your head in the sand while many of those around you are disaffected or downright fighting mad is a strategy that works for a while. I just don't think it's a very good strategy in the long run.

Yes, we need more debates and a more democratic process to select the truly best candidate. Failing that, we don't have a unified party. We don't really have a unified anything. But those who are betting in a certain direction are certainly celebrating early.

Well, I guess they'd just get the big corporations to come and pick up the bill. That will really tie the bow up real nicely.

[hill2016]

66. the

best candidate is the one leading in the polls today.

What you really want is to change the nomination process to help your favored candidate.

[merrily]

75. Nope. It an undemocratic process and should be changed, but you pretend otherwise to help your

favored candidate.

[highprincipleswork]

133. truly can't appreciate the consciousness of the usual Clinton fan

Besides the fact that it's all so obvious that she will be willing to sell out any of a number of cherished New Deal institutions that keep so many of the truly disadvantaged and the just moderately disadvantaged and the once middle class in something like a decent life, and that she's all too wiling to go to war, can you not see how the very system that supports her and sustains her is not very "democratic" or reflective of the true will of the people? Can you not see that limiting the public access of other candidates, while fiendishly clever and politically, strategically sound, also cuts off the Democratic Party potentially from those who see their candidates marginalized.

Look, Bernie may never get the kind of following that warrants a nomination. But a truly team-playing, confident candidate would say, sure, give them the debates they say they need. We're going to win this thing anyway.

But no. The cagey game continues. The cagey game is not a very high principled game, however. It will never get you the kind of enthusiasm that has been seen in the Bernie camp. And it's mostly because we've all been here before, and seen how the cagey game is a set-up, a hoax, a mirage.

Bernie is a Democratic candidate such as we see very seldom, who puts principle first, and they are principles that Hillary has spent months copying and imitating. In short, they are popular ones.

It's just that he will stand up for them, and she will do what is politically expedient.

I am sickened by the process, and what we choose to settle for, and how the game is already so rigged with big money and super Pacs and super delegates and everything that is wrong and can never lead to something right.

Ronald Reagan scared us all so much so many years ago, and there just hasn't hardly been a truly decent day since.

[PowerToThePeople]

58. The first amendment.

[Agnosticsherbet]

59. The right to complain falls under the ninth amendment

Complaining, however, doesn't mean they are right.

[merrily]

68. First, Ninth and Tenth.

[DJ13]

60. Sniff sniff

[MADem]

64. They can criticize all they want.

It won't do them any good. The party is a political organization. People who work within the party, contribute their time, energy and resources to it, and work within the structure of the party have influence within it. People who come in from outside can't elbow their way to the front of the line and change the rules.

That's life. They're free to gripe, but they'll need to put their shoulders to the wheel for awhile before they are listened to, and when they demonstrate a little loyalty, they'll get a little loyalty.

That's how "parties" work.

[bkkyosemite]

83. Delegates and their involvement in the process

is a problem and undemocratic.

[MADem]

85. It's a problem to you. It's not a problem to me and most long-term Democrats. nt

[Truprogressive85]

78. Interesting

David Duke and George Wallace once had D's by their names

Were they better than Sen.Sandes because they were democrats on paper ?

[Pauldg47]

80. Can he still run as a independant and if so, could this benefit him?

[MADem]

86. I don't think so.

Too many states have sore loser laws.

[merrily]

106. Anyone, including Hillary, can still run as an independent if state law (state by state) allows him

or her on the ballot, but what does that have to do with my right to criticize super delegates, which is what the OP challenged?

As far as Bernie changing the Party, the OP provided not a lick of evidence on that score.

[RandySF]

82. K&R

[Kalidurga]

96. I am not worried about it.

If Bernie gets more popular votes in the primaries and the caucuses. I would like to see the super delegates usurp the people's choice.

[zalinda]

98. A question

Why should Bernie waste all the money on the dem primary, when if he ran as an indie, he could save all his money for the GE. What is he getting from the dems? The party big wigs are sidelining him as much as possible. First with the number, timing and quality of debates, and then not even helping to sign up voters at his rallys. What have they done for him? All I see are smears, blood oaths and contempt coming from the dem party, who obviously want to crown Hillary.

Bernie could have run as an indie, and probably should have, as he keeps attracting more and more people. But, he promised the dem party that he wouldn't, so as not to split the party, and to provide coat tails for down ticket candidates.

After this election, I'm sure any populist will think twice with connecting with the dem party. The Internet is changing the way politics is done. Soon, TV ads will be a think of the past. With anyone being able to show a video on their phone or tablet, people are being seen. Just like some music groups are avoiding the name brand recording companies, politicians will soon see that kowtowing to the DNC or RNC, is not worth the price.

Z

[merrily]

101. Good points and this crap is turning young people off the Democratic Party as well.

[mindwalker_i]

114. I've often thought that it would be good if people ran on their ideas

... rather than on their brand. Seeing people around here (fortunately, not too many) claim that Hillary is the best because she's had the magical (D) to the right of her name the longest reinforces that idea. Furthermore, it's becoming very clear that people are supporting someone who doesn't have the ideals that are needed, badly, in the country right now because of brand, and this is not good for us.

I would much rather support what is best rather than what is (D).

[merrily]

116. IMO, the Clintons and their DLC have had a very detrimental impact on the D brand. Her branding is

her logo, for which she no doubt paid royally and which represented the best collective judgment of her and her campaign and close supporters.

I remember all the laughter for hours on this site the day it was introduced. Good times.

[mindwalker_i]

127. And her logo is dominated by a big, red arrow

pointing to the right. That's particularly accurate.

This whole argument is religious in that Hillary's supporters are saying the equivalent of, "You don't love Jesus!" They have their faith, which is in all things Democrat and overrides that The Democrat (tm) is not the one that will do the country the most good. In fact, there's a big possibility that she'll do a lot of harm, like Obama has done by pushing the TPP (technically, "will probably do&quot .

Faith leads people to do stupid things.

[merrily]

130. Yes, and that did account for a good portion of the laughter mentioned in my prior post.

Very corporate style branding logo, with a big red arrow pointing right.


After years of prepping for this run and paying good money for a logo.

As I said, most of us laughed for a good while that day.

I don't know about faith, etc. I think people are acting in their perceived self-interest.

[merrily]

104. You edit does not save your OP. A candidate and his supporters are not a single entity or person.

Newcomer or not--and even that is debatable, please quote something from Bernie Sanders that shows his attempt to change the Democratic Party.

When you are finished, explain how the date Bernie became a Democrat affects the date of my membership in the Democratic Party or the date any of his supporters became members of the Democratic Party.

And then, explain how any of that affects anyone's right to criticize as undemocratic any part of the process by which any party selects its candidate for POTUS.

[SoapBox]

108. Guess you conveniently forgot that he has ALWAYS caucused with Democrats.

Remember that part?

And about all those that have been around since 1984? Well we are certainly seeing their Entrentched Establishment, big money, big power, Wall Street supporting, Billionaire liking, War Machine solidarity!

It's time to end that crap.

[shenmue]

118. No, he hasn't. He voted against the Brady Bill five times.

Most Democrats were for it.

[ucrdem]

124. +1

Dunno where the memes are coming from but the level of (self) deception surrounding this point is kind of, well, SCARY

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. We have the right as citizens to question the fitness of candidates for the presidency.

Hillary's fitness to hold that office, or any office, is questionable.

We also have the right to question the political methods used to sustain a corrupt system.

[yuiyoshida]

190. Why does it seem some democrats are insisting on

democrats taking a blood oath to the party, and never question anything? I thought it this was a "Democratic" party, not a fascist one. Leave the fanatical fascism to the Republican party!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

195. Some Democrats seem to see The Party as a sort of cult with worshippers and high priests.

That requires vows, oaths, and offerings.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche

[yuiyoshida]

198. love that quote

Thanks

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

201. Do itashimashte.

When I was in Japan in ancient times (early '60s) a lady friend told me how to remember that phrase. "Don't touch my mustache".

[Old Crow]

119. The entire frame of mind of this post is repulsive.

"No one who disagrees with my position has the right to criticise things I don't think should be criticized."

I think that about sums it up.

Honestly: You have got to be kidding me.

[ibegurpard]

128. I can criticize whoever the fuck I want to criticize

Eom

[Gore1FL]

132. The "Bernie is not a Democrat" argument is tired and stupid.

His supporters have a right to criticize super delegates for a number of reasons.

These include but are not limited to:
* In the United States people are allowed to express opinions.
* Many of Bernie Sanders supporters are card-carrying Democrats.
* Bernie Sanders is participating in the process and should have as big a voice as anyone else.

If you think seniority as a Democrat counts, vote for Hillary. that has little to do with Super Delegates, however.

[Fearless]

135. Bwahahahaha! Best joke I've heard this morning!

[DonCoquixote]

136. If a candidate wants your votes

than you have paid your dues. If they do not want your votes, you can ignore them, and they you.

It is also very funny that a certain former Senator first demanded that Florida broke the rules back in 2008, so we should have out votes flushed, until lo and behold, she won them, and then tired to make a civil war because of Florida.

Granted, if I had the power, I would make a federal office to oversee federal elections, especially as I am very aware of how my Florida is, was and will be a state marinated in ballot stuffing and ballot burning, as well as heavy amounts as white males with guns trying to scare anyone else away from voting.

[Scuba]

137. Hey, if a pro-war, pro-Wall Street, pro-fracking, pro-H1B Visas woman can run as a Democrat ...

... so can Bernie Sanders.

[eridani]

140. Sanders supports the Dem platform much more than many with the official D after the name n/t

[mhatrw]

142. Let's see. Because they are not democratic?

[deutsey]

144. Wow...DU has gone completely off the rails

I submit this post as Exhibit A.

[demwing]

146. And what will you do to stop us?

Complain? What gives you the right to complain?

[99Forever]

148. Oh KEWL. A fucking reeking stinkbait thread from Camp Weathervane.

Think I'll throw this POS into the trash where it belongs, then come back and put the OP on ignore, here it belongs.

[GoneFishin]

153. The spin cycle is set on "nuts". From "Bernie is a warhawk" to "Bernie is not a Democrat"

in one day.

Impressive.

[treestar]

163. True all the ranting about how the Democratic Party is not

rolling up the red carpets enough for Bernie is incredibly entitled.

[jeff47]

170. No, entitled is demanding Democrats shut up and blindly follow. (nt)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

168. My birth gives me the right to criticize anything I want to criticize. Next.

[jeff47]

169. I am a Democrat. I have been officially a Democrat since I turned 18.

Last edited Sun Nov 1, 2015, 08:02 PM - Edit history (2)

And your claim is I'm not allowed to complain about my party's process designed to override my vote. Which I have complained about since I was 18.

Fuck that.

[yuiyoshida]

197. This! Jeff

This

[AgingAmerican]

175. Sanders is more of a Democrat than Hillary will ever be

Which explains why she mimics everything he says.

[HassleCat]

176. I have the right, thank you

I am a lifelong Democrat, worked for various Democratic candidates, organized campaign events at all levels, circulated nominating petitions, gave money to the party, and so on. I have never liked the idea of superdelegates, and have criticized them since I first learned of them. We call ourselves the "Democratic" party, yet employ this highly undemocratic method of choosing our presidential candidate. It's not just "a Bernie thing."

[LoveIsNow]

177. Perhaps that we are members of the Democratic party???

I have been since there first time I registered shortly before my 18th birthday.

It's my party, why can't I criticize it?

Or am I no longer a Democrat because I support an independent who has been affiliated with our party for over a quarter century?

[kenfrequed]

180. Uhm because most of his supporters ARE democrats!

I go to my caucuses every year and I have never liked the idea of superdelegates.

[Vinca]

181. We can criticize and complain whatever we want. This isn't a coronation.

You might recall delegates jumping like rats off a sinking ship in 2008 and supporting Obama after it was clear he would be the winner of the primary season.

[Uncle Joe]

182. The First Amendment.

Thanks for the thread, hill2106.

[cherokeeprogressive]

184. The First Fucking Amendment gives me the right to criticize whomever the fuck I want.

Next question.

[BlueCaliDem]

185. Despite what he tells his supporters and constituents, Bernie IS a Democrat - according to his

legislative record.

He's voted 98% of the time with Democrats, beating ConservaDems like Manchin (69%) and Webb (89%). Ninety-eight percent. Oh yes. Bernie is a Democrat, all right...and only slightly less hawkish than Hillary Clinton on national security. He's actually quite strong on national security and he'd make an excellent Commander in Chief.
But make no mistake - he's a Democrat.

IN THE 1980s, as Burlington’s mayor, Sanders mounted a challenge to the Democrats and Republicans, maintaining a consistent anti-imperialist position in solidarity with the Nicaraguan Revolution and trying to implement pro-worker policies.

But that was long ago. Now Sanders is independent in name only–he in fact supports the Democratic Party.

As his long-time antagonist and now ally, Democratic National Committee Chair Howard Dean, said on the NBC’s Meet the Press, “He is basically a liberal Democrat, and he is a Democrat at that–he runs as an Independent because he doesn’t like the structure and money that gets involved…The bottom line is that Bernie Sanders votes with the Democrats 98 percent of the time.” Ironically, that’s more often than most Democrats vote with the Democrats.

Sanders’ voting record is also not so very left wing; one study found that 38 other congressional representatives had a more progressive voting record.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/11/15/a-socialist-in-the-senate/

However, being a strong CiC is not his appeal with his supporters. His appeal is his liberal views on domestic policy - something he'll need friends in Congress to make happen. That's where I have a problem with him.

Sanders has precious few friends in Congress. That's where, I believe, he's very, very weak as a Democratic presidential candidate. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, is strong on both national security and domestic policy (as far as being able to get things done for the country), and that's why I support her and will vote for her.

[LWolf]

187. Simple answer. We are. Democrats. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

188. The First Amendment.

Maybe you should go look that up.

[bowens43]

193. What gives us the right? Are you fucking kidding?

oh wait , you are a hillary supporter.....never mind.

[davidn3600]

194. I say...fuck seniority.

That's the type of shit that is essentially the problem.

Too much elitism in D.C. Both Republicans and Democrats across this country would agree with this.

[yuiyoshida]

200. I remember a time when DU had "Unrec"

UNrec

DROPS THE FLAMEBAIT CARD on this thread

[jberryhill]

202. Yes, my goodness, the system that gave us Mondale/Ferraro

Yeah, she turned out to be one swell peach.

Like Joe Lieberman... thank goodness that guy didn't get near an important office.

[FarPoint]

203. The Superdelegates...

Bernie can never swoon them....ever. Sanders in this race only helps give the appearance of competition and helps elevate fruitful discussion of progressive issues. Otherwise, it's Checkmate, game over for Sanders.

[Zen Democrat]

204. Because the bulk of his supporters are Democrats.

[madfloridian]

205. Well...if he's not a Democrat, are we as his supporters considered part of the party?

[merrily]

227. Of course we are. And he is a Democrat, so there is no need to go further.

The opening post is an epic fail.

[Autumn]

207. Because we are Democrats and we can.

[LettuceSea]

208. 'pay your dues' is a real turn off

Just keeping it real, that turns more people off and closes the tent. It's not 1964 where everyone "gets in line" regardless of their personal motivations.

If that's the line you guys are going to take, it'll be an ugly general election.

[m-lekktor]

210. you Hillary people are unfuckingbelievable!

[RandySF]

218. K&R

[postatomic]

224. A simple litmus test

How many elected Democrats or members of the DNC are there that are campaigning for Senator Sanders? While you're thinking of a good snark consider this; Hillary has more endorsements from his own Progressive Caucus than he does.

I hope that the "He's more of a Democrat than Hillary" is just something his supporters came up with. But, I"m not so sure it's just his supporters. Either way, it is burning a major bridge. Definitely not a good way to win friends and influence people.

For whatever reason Senator Sanders has decided to run as an outsider. It's not about the Democratic Party or the DNC. It's about Sanders and nothing but Sanders. I think it's extremely disingenuous to his supporters.

[merrily]

243. That is not the litmus test for who is a Democrat. And Sanders is running as Democrat.

Nader ran as an outsider. Sanders did not. Simple difference.

[postatomic]

254. Who brought up Nader?

Nader wasn't an outsider, he was with the Green Party. He was an active member of that Party. The difference is not so simple.

Outsider: One who is isolated or detached from the activities or concerns of his or her own community.

It is very much a legitimate litmus test. If everyone in the political party that you say you represent turns their back on you .... that is a very good litmus test. It represents your place in that particular political party. And Sanders seems quite content with his role as an outsider.

See? Not a simple difference.

[merrily]

255. He ran when he was not with the Green Party, too. And, no, it's not a litmus test for deciding who

is or is not a Democrat. I'm a Democrat and the DNC never heard of me--except when it comes times to solicit donations. The litmus test is whether your home state recognizes you as a Democrat.

Who is a Democrat and who is a candidate for the nomination for POTUS of the Democratic Party is not a matter of board bs. It's not poetry that is up for personal interpretation, either. There are correct answers and incorrect answers, some of them as a matter of law.

[postatomic]

257. Are you running for office?

Nader again?!? Okay. Whatever.

Typically even those with low poll numbers will get the backing and support from other Democrats in office to help them. I'll stand by original comments. There is something wrong when you are running for PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES and the Party you attach yourself to ignores you. Doesn't help you. Doesn't campaign for you. I think it's a pretty fair litmus test.

But, we're going nowhere fast here. So I'll return to the sanity of the 3-Dimensional world.

[merrily]

258. Nothing in your post has to do with who is a Democrat and who isn't, but no worries!

[Babel_17]

228. Because the supporters are Democrats?

As Democrats they can comment on the system? Am I close?

[Mike Nelson]

229. I thought he had switched...

...or had firm plans to... someone here answered questions about this issue.

[orpupilofnature57]

230. Because their machinists and nothing more, part of the reason we're here .

[Capt. Obvious]

236. So many people taking the bait

[John Poet]

250. Something called "The First Amendment". Heard of it?

So maybe you Hillary supporters don't believe in
"free speech for non-Hillary supporters"?

[Fawke Em]

256. As an American, I have the right to criticize any elected official.

The Constitution, specifically the First Amendment, "gives" me that right.