If I tell you a pear is an apple does that make it true?

[rbrnmw]

Last edited Mon Nov 2, 2015, 09:44 AM - Edit history (2)

We all know it doesn't. Saying that Hillary Clinton is hated almost everyone and most politicians fear her doesn't make it true. Throwing good Democrats and Civil Rights Leaders under the bus by saying they are endorsing Hillary because they are threatened or they are selfish doesn't make that true either.

EDITED I CHANGED IT FROM EVERYONE

If you haven't personally engaged in this I am not talking to you.

[NanceGreggs]

1. There are people here ...

... who honestly believe that if you say something enough times, it becomes the truth.

It's the same tactic FOX-News has used successfully since its inception.

[rbrnmw]

2. Yes I am seeing that more and more

It just looks really bad. I have seen this stuff for years thrown at the Clintons mostly by republicans.

[riversedge]

26. And now so many-not all--

not only throw crap -vile crap many times around like Republicans, they make stuff up like Republicans.

[rbrnmw]

27. It says more about them than they realize

[Electric Monk]

28. You are projecting. You are doing exactly what you are complaining about. See reply #8.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251756190#post8

[liberal N proud]

77. If I didn't know better, I would think we had a bunch of Republicans on board

But then I don't know that do I.

But if I were judging people based on how they act, I could easily believe it.

[willvotesdem]

78. Look in the mirror. eom

[oasis]

3. E-mails gone. Biden gone. Bengazi panel gone. They've nothing

left so they have to manufacture crap.

[rbrnmw]

4. It's sad because we are not their enemy

I just don't understand the hate.

[oasis]

11. In their fervor to boost their candidate, they tuned out Hillary's

documented history of positive contributions. It then became easier to demonize her.

I don't believe so many began their campaign for Bernie with hatred in their hearts for Hillary.

The Kerry/Dean DU wars and the Obama/Hillary wars were nasty, but nothing like I've seen here these past months.

[rbrnmw]

12. It hurts

When I see my friends trying to reach out and them get a timeout for their effort. I don't think all of them really support either candidate. They are here to cause ruckus.

[oasis]

14. I'd say some in their number never voted for a Democrat, ever. (eom)

[rbrnmw]

15. Some have said that they never voted

[cui bono]

35. Sorry, but this subthread is full of bs.

You want to see hatred? And I mean HATRED, not criticism, pure unadulterated hatred, go to hillaryclintonsupporters.com. Of course unless you're an insider you can't see it any more. But there have been plenty of screencaps of the vile hatred spewed on that site by people who also post here and boy were they ugly. And the hate was directed at both Bernie and DUers. It had nothing to do with policy, just pure hatred of another human being.

I have seen NOTHING close to that from Bernie supporters. I know not of a site that was set up for the sole purpose of spewing hate towards Hillary and her supporters.

Scroll through the Hillary group and the Bernie group and try to tell me honestly which group has the most negative OPs in there directed at their opponent or the opponent's supporters. I can tell you which group that would be. The Hillary group has an OP that is about Bernie supporters being "unhinged".

So spare us the bullshit that Bernie supporters are haters. That is pure projection.

And unfortunately for Hillary, she just has so much negative baggage, be it lying, nasty negative campaigns, bad votes or just a bad rap from the GOP that there is much to criticize. No need to demonize her, just stating the truth is pretty bad. You want to see demonization, look at all the shit that Hillary supporters are making up and trying to have stick about Bernie. All the fake outrage just to try to bring him down, to try to find that "Dean Scream" they can use against him.

Me, I don't hate Hillary. I distrust her and I don't like her and she is way to centrist/corporatist for my tastes. She also is not a leader in that she follows along on issues rather than be at the forefront of the fight. She's not the best candidate and if she is elected we can kiss our democracy goodbye because all the world trade deals will pass, effectively nullifying our and other countries' constitution and then corporations will rule the world. That has NOTHING to do with hatred. It has to do with love of democracy and fighting for the people over corporations.

[Scuba]

42. /\_/\_This right here_/\_/\

[rbrnmw]

47. I have never done anything like that personally

[frylock]

69. So of course that means that it isn't happening.

[oasis]

64. First of all, your rant about the Hillary support site is misguided.

I haven't searched for a mission statement over there, and I don't know if they have one. I do believe, however, the site was created out of a necessity for Hillary supporters to get away from the overall venom spewed here at DU.

It seems to be a sanctuary for like minded posters to engage in uninterrupted, free flowing discussion without the threat of hides.

Although many of the posts over there refer to bad experiences here at DU, I've never seen anything that even closely resembles what you have described in your post.

As for the post you are referring to on this thread, it's clear that I am merely attempting to explain to the poster why there is such animosity toward Hillary. I am in no way building up the "hate" perception, but deflecting away from it.

You will never find one post where I have unfairly criticized Bernie, but you will see many in which I have expressed my respect and admiration for him.

[frylock]

71. Uninterrupted, free flowing discussion of what?

It ain't issues.

[oasis]

81. Why should you care about what is discussed at that site or any

other forum as long as it doesn't concern you?

[Doctor_J]

67. I too don't get the hate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=744715

And don't forget an entire site devoted to hating Sanders and his voters.

[Aerows]

75. Exactly.

None of that is about issues. I swear, it's like the two minutes hate. It is absolutely soul-draining.

[Cha]

99. And, I was in all of them. Once it was over I moved on after a grace period.

They can't promote their candidate on facts.. they must not be real sure of him.

[oasis]

101. Sadly, some suffer from self imposed tunnel vision. In their quest

for a flawless messiah, they refuse to look at the big picture.

[eridani]

9. Who in fucking hell EVER gave a shit about Benghazi or emails?

Just about everyone is with Bernie on that, not caring about the damned emails.

[oasis]

13. Just about everyone? So you deny seeing OP after OP about

Hillary's e-mails plastered all over DU GD-P for months and months?

[riversedge]

63. Denial runs so deep.

[oasis]

65. Yup, just as deep as this patch of crickets I'm sitting in from my post.

[rbrnmw]

16. Well some did care they posted nasty op's about them

[frylock]

72. I am an IT professional, and I care about the mail server.

[eridani]

98. But the problems with the server are widespread in government IT systems

Her email problems are hardly unique.

[frylock]

102. So then anybody in govt should be able to set up their own mail server?

Why didn't Hillary take the lead on getting the IT infrastructure upgraded at State?

[eridani]

103. She should have. So should a lot of other people n/t

[frylock]

104. What are your credentials in the industry?

[eridani]

105. I don't have any. The problem seems to be government officials not having any, and not being

--willing to engage in some sort of concerted effort to change the system. I haven't heard of any consistent across the board policies.

[frylock]

106. So you've never worked as a sys admin, don't understand the basics of IT security or best practice..

yet feel qualified to determine that Hillary using her own mail server is okay? So what exactly are you basing that upon, other than hatred of Republicans?

[eridani]

107. I'm saying that the problem is not UNIQUE to Clinton n/t

[frylock]

108. Yes, it is..

Clinton is the only SoS to ever use her own mail server exclusively for State business.

[eridani]

109. But what about the rest of the government apart from the State Department? n/t

[frylock]

110. I am not aware of any other government employees who have set up their own mail server..

did you have someone specific in mind?

[eridani]

111. Thought that it was not all that unusual n/t

[frylock]

112. Powell had two systems set up in his office, but used the govt system to conduct State business..

I don't think Rice used email at all.

[eridani]

113. As far as we know he only used the govt system for business--that's what he says, anyway

He also said that Iraq had WMD. At any rate, aren't there very serious security issues and lack of standard protocols in other areas besides the State Department?

[jfern]

20. IBD/TIPP has her at just 48% without all that

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. One poll?

you are clinging to one poll result?

[Electric Monk]

5. Everyone? Nah, just a little more than half of Americans hold her in a negative light

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/02/new-poll-shows-negatives-adding-up-for-hillary-clinton-and-donald-trump/

The survey found that 53 percent of Americans now see Mrs. Clinton unfavorably, nearly matching the nadir she reached in April 2008 during her first presidential bid. Although 45 percent still view Mrs. Clinton favorably, the bulk of her support comes from blacks and Hispanics, while whites are taking a dimmer view of her candidacy.

That's not everyone, but it's way more than nobody.

[rbrnmw]

6. That was during the email fracas

and before that Gowdy witch hunt.

[cui bono]

33. So do you have a way of turning back time?

If not, that doesn't matter does it?

[Electric Monk]

34. "nearly matching the nadir she reached in April 2008 during her first presidential bid" nt

[Dem2]

7. Favorability polls?

Why are we attacking our candidate by emphasizing their lower-than-optimal favorability ratings? This is a terrible thing to do on a Democratic site.

[Bernin4U]

25. "Attacking," seriously?

As much as Clinton supporters love to taunt their poll numbers, pointing out the poll that's possibly the most important at this point, is attacking?

Her unfavorability is quite likely her biggest weakness. The actual numbers are certainly debatable, but the importance is not.

If I'm trying to win at something, the first thing I'll do is consider my biggest weakness, and try to determine how to minimize it, if not turn it into a strength. For ex, if you're somewhat of a beginner at playing something, don't be afraid to look like one. Exaggerate it, even. Let your opponent let their guard down, then show them what you've really got.

A lot of ways to deal with a weakness, but pretending it doesn't exist is not one of them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. What are President Obama's favorabilities

since he is arguably the only candidate that COULD beat her if it were possible...

[Scuba]

43. "Our candidate"? She's not "our candidate". She's a candidate, and not a very good one either.

[rbrnmw]

24. Have you seen the lastest polls?

HILLARY IS LOOKING GOOD!!!!!!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. and what are President Obama's "negatives"

right now?

[Fumesucker]

8. You are doing exactly what you are complaining about

No one has said *everyone* hates Hillary, that's obviously not true so your post is hyperbole.

[eridani]

10. It's the MIC that I hate

I'd like her better if she saw a problem with it. Iranians are not my enemy.

[Aerows]

17. Uh, well

Absolutely the wrong question to ask someone like me.

[rbrnmw]

18. Ok you got me there

[Aerows]

19. Biology and critters

is kind of my hobby.

[rbrnmw]

21. Cool

[Aerows]

22. I suppose that on occasion

I can get a tad too scientific. I hope it made you laugh, though

[rbrnmw]

23. It did indeed make me laugh thanks

[lovemydog]

29. I'd like to add a few things too:

President Obama is a progressive. In my opinion he's the best progressive President in the history of the United States.

Hillary Clinton is a progressive and is very popular among progressives.

Martin O'Malley is a progressive and his policy proposals, which are in writing at his web site, are more progressive than Hillary Clinton's on some matters, and more progressive than Bernie Sanders' on some matter too.

Bernie Sanders is a progressive, to the left on economic matters of Clinton. He's a democratic socialist, not a Socialist with a capital S.

Even Bernie Sanders, who in his stated positions on economic matters is to the left of Hillary Clinton, is probably in the mainstream of liberal thought in Western Europe.

Some people will be voting in the primaries not just on a candidate's stated positions. They also may be voting on how much they think that person can accomplish for progressive causes. That is okay.

I'm still undecided. I think all three of these candidates would make an outstanding President, especially with a much more liberal Congress.

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. actually you are wrong...Democratic Socialists

by their own definition are Socialists that believe in elected governance....

They oppose ALL Capitalism....unlike Socialist Democrats....who believe in a balance between Labor and Capital (but I never heard Sanders call himself that term)

[lovemydog]

89. I call myself a democratic socialist. I don't oppose ALL capitalism.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist. I have never heard him say he opposes ALL capitalism.

For me, I believe in a mixed economy. I just feel we can swing the pendulum more to the left (particularly vis a vis health care and jobs programs and education) and achieve outstanding results. I'm also interested in working with democrats and people toward the more moderate portion of the U.S. political spectrum because I feel we need this coalition to achieve success. I know that we live in a capitalistic system, that's not going away any time soon. I also know there are elements of socialism too in some of our domestic policies, and I'd like to see the socialistic elements expand to improve the 99% more, particularly in terms of more aggressive progressive taxation.

If you've read a lot of my posts here, VanillaRhapsody, you'll see that my primary interest is in building coalitions and maintaining strong camaraderie among leftists like myself and more mainstream democrats. I've never been overly critical of President Obama and I'm not overly critical of Clinton, O'Malley or Sanders.

I don't think there's anywhere in the world where one can oppose 'ALL' capitalism and not come off like an unrealistic moron, except maybe in some tribal society or a commune completely off the grid or something.

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. You might ....but unless you oppose all Capitalism

You'd be wrong.....now Socialist Democrats believe in balance between Capital and Labor. That might better describe you then ...

I think Bernie knows what a Social Democracy is....U think he knows the difference.....I guve him credit for that. Why Don't you?

Why didnt Bernie say he is a Socialist Democrat now that he is running on that parties Primary? I will tell you why....because I am right and yes he does know the difference.

[VanillaRhapsody]

92. And my proof

Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving welfare state provisions, collective bargaining arrangements, regulation of the economy in the general interest, redistribution ...

[VanillaRhapsody]

93. And what do THEY say.....

Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy (usually multi-party representative democracy) with social ownership of the means of production.

[lovemydog]

95. Who is THEY?

[VanillaRhapsody]

96. Democratic Socialists.....

Democratic socialism is usually distinguished from both the Soviet model of a centralized economy and social democracy.[2] A distinction is also made between democratic socialism and social democracy in that the former is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while the latter is not.[3] However, "democratic socialism" is sometimes improperly used as a synonym for social democracy, where "social democracy" usually refers to support for political democracy, regulation of the capitalist economy, and a welfare state.[4

[lovemydog]

97. That's from the first sentence of a wikipedia article on upper case

Democratic Socialists. As the rest of the article describes, there are many different flavors. There are lower case democratic socialists who also work with the democratic party. Like caucusing with them or running with them. Some are also registered democrats.

[Kalidurga]

30. Calling Hillary a progressive that will work tirelessly...

for well needed reform doesn't make that true either. I have yet to see a good debate from the pro Hillary people on what she will likely propose to do with the mountain of problems that we still have from conservatives beeping things up.

[Scootaloo]

31. Polls show she has rather high unfavorability.

Sorry.

[Aerows]

40. I am absolutely not sure

which Democratic candidate, in my lifetime, that I would want to vote for in the GE less than Hillary Clinton.

I'm pretty certain there are forms of physical torture that would be less painful.

I would do it, but I would do it with malice.

We need someone like Bernie to vote FOR, or O'Malley to vote for.

I do not want to know what fortitude I will have to conjure up to vote for Hillary in the GE.

DWS can dance on all of the failed Democratic graves she has created while pretending to be one.

I am one.

[cui bono]

32. Here's some more for you...

Calling Hillary liberal or progressive doesn't make it true.

Saying Bernie is sexist or made a sexist remark to Hillary doesn't make it true.

Saying Hillary is better on social justice issues than Bernie doesn't make it true.

Saying Bernie can't win in the general doesn't make it true.


There's a whole bunch more you missed but I think you get the point.

[Bernin4U]

36. And notice the lack of need to turn it into a straw man

by adding words like "all" or "everyone".

[Mike__M]

38. Saying those things doesn't make them true, but

if you and your friends have enough money to smear around, you can influence a lot of people to repeat the falsehoods and pretend they're true.

[rbrnmw]

46. You mean like the Republicans did

from the second they stepped on the national stage.

[Mike__M]

80. Yes, very much like that

And I'll even

leave some space

between the lines

here to make it easier

to read between them.

[Lil Missy]

37. Only on DU. n/t

[Aerows]

39. Unless you are talking to the people at the dry cleaners

while you are getting your oil changed, or waiting for your take out and have a chance to talk to actual people.

Try it. Bernie is catching on, that's true - O'Malley is speeding up as well, Hillary Clinton is an icon of a bunch of negative things.

I'm sorry, I can't rewrite history, I can't turn back the clock on positions that she has absolutely asserted.

I'm not big on political amnesia - that has historically given us some candidates with too many anchors to get elected.

[rbrnmw]

45. The Republicans had 30 years to brainwash

The American electorate into believing lies about the Clintons. Maybe Hillary is her own person.

[Aerows]

68. Here's the thing

As her own person, she has taken some really crappy positions. Normal, everyday people are tired of war. Normal, everyday people are against another trade agreement that exports jobs to another country.

It has absolutely nothing, for me, to do with Republicans poisoning the Clinton well. We have GOT to do something differently than we have been doing. Hillary Clinton herself said "I haven't had to drive a car since 1996."

She is more than capable of screwing up all by herself with haughty statements like that. Flirting with the idea of raising the retirement age for Social Security is another issue. Then there is the huge reluctance to raise the SS cap which would keep SS solvent for 85 years.

Do you understand where I am coming from? This isn't about Republicans. This is about Hillary Clinton.

[frylock]

73. Saw a woman at the flu shot clinic this weekend with a Sander 2016 shirt.

#feelthebern

[Motown_Johnny]

41. Nobody said everyone, and the fact that you can't tell the truth

about the argument proves you are wrong.

If you were right, you would not need to misrepresent our side of the argument.



Gosh, another dishonest post from a Hillary supporter. Why am I not shocked?

[rbrnmw]

44. I editd it

[Fumesucker]

48. Doesn't change the fact that you engaged in exactly what you were complaining about

There is a word for that.

[Motown_Johnny]

90. Thanks, now please edit the word "hate" because that also is dishonest.

People do not trust her. She has huge unfavorable numbers too.


I appreciate your trying to not be dishonest but you can't support your point of view honestly simply because you are wrong.



Remember this?






How about this?






I'm sorry but you really are wrong on this one. Her negatives make her a terrible choice for a Presidential nominee.

[Motown_Johnny]

94. Also.....

I took this photo about 45 minutes after you edited your OP. I know the quality is poor and I apologize for that. I was using my phone and was 2 cars back. The Hillary sticker says "Hillary For Prison 2016".

I see just about the same number of these kind of stickers as I do the "Ready For Hillary" stickers.





Their base can't wait to vote against her. Our base cares very little for someone who is only progressive when she wants to win a nomination. We all know she will run back to the middle if she does become the nominee. The far right will still want to vote against her and our base will be even less motivated to support her.

She really should not be our nominee.

[LWolf]

49. It's a good thing

I've never said those things, then.

[rbrnmw]

50. No but a lot of threads have

[Admiral Loinpresser]

51. Do you have a link

for such alleged statements?

[rbrnmw]

54. Do a search

[Admiral Loinpresser]

58. No thank you.

The burden of proof is on the affirmative for the proposition.

[rbrnmw]

59. I have to go to work

I will post some later

[Admiral Loinpresser]

60. No problem.

Have a good one.

[rbrnmw]

61. You too

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Is this about Hillary trying to revise the history of DOMA into the history of a pear?

Because no matter how much she says it was a defensive move it was actually was an open act of bigotry. Some who seem to have forgotten were clear at the time:

Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.): “Why do you want to destroy the love they hold in their hearts? Why do you want to crush their hopes, their dreams, their unions, their aspirations? We are talking about human beings, people like you.”

[betsuni]

62. I agree. Saying something does not make it true. How many times does this have to be said.

A lot. Pieces of things in the shape of a pear:

[NurseJackie]

66. It's only true to the person who doesn't know the difference between a pear and an apple.

Last edited Mon Nov 2, 2015, 02:47 PM - Edit history (1)

If that person has no idea what a pear is, or what an apple is, and you tell them that the pear is the apple, then they have no reason to believe otherwise.

This type of trick will only work on the a certain type of ill-informed person, or someone who's willing to blindly accept anything that anyone tells them, or … a child.

From all appearances, it's easy to see that the type of message you're referring needs to have a specific audience. People who post that type of message are trying to convince (trick) a specific type of ill-informed voter, or incurious voter, or voters with a naive and child-like ability to trust anonymous strangers.

[rbrnmw]

76. Yes that's what happens

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. There are no facts, only interpretations. Friedrich Nietzsche

[99Forever]

74. Strawman much?

[NCTraveler]

79. The things I have seen here that a very small groups believe to be true.

1) Sanders isn't an ally to women and minorities.
2) Social justice is a wedge issue.
3) Maddow and Lewis are bought and paid for.
4) Hillary Clinton is a sexist.
4) More bullshit after more bullshit.

Fact is, if social justice isn't your thing, lots of things could become comparable simply out of ignorance.
If economic equality isn't your thing, lots of things could become comparable simply out of ignorance.

The best part is how much confidence is borne from ignorance. It's very interesting.

[NurseJackie]

82. They know Bernie's campaign is in trouble, and this is an effort to maximize their support by

going after the gullible, easily fooled, and low-information voter. Although that type of voter does exist, in both parties, they don't exist in sufficient numbers to make a big enough difference for Bernie. People have already made up their minds in sufficient numbers that lets us know that it ain't gonna be Bernie.

I say, let them continue with this absurd charade.

Yes, it may get them some additional gullible voters, but in the end, the intelligent and observant "fence sitters" who are still "undecided" will see these pitiful lies for what they are. In doing so, they'll realize that Bernie has not run an effective campaign, and Bernie's followers are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

By their own lies, they'll drive more voters to Hillary, in numbers that far exceed the votes they're getting from scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[NCTraveler]

83. I completely agree with your overall assessment.

So it begs the question: Why are a small group of Hillary supporters doing the same? I got really pissed at a couple of posts recently that were clear attempts to connect Sanders to sexism. I will tell you this as a woman. Sanders is one of my greatest allies and I don't take kindly to having him smeared by association on this issue. Not only do I not take kindly to it, people need to stop fucking with my allies in this area. He has numerous seriously shady votes and rhetoric to question. He has no networking skills at all and absolutely no political clout. These are things up for fair discussion. As for women, he is a great advocate. Shit, even the association was weak. I get why Sanders supporters are doing it. It's the actions of we who support an unchallenged frontrunner that I don't get.

[NurseJackie]

85. Honestly, I hadn't noticed. But …

… it may be due to the same short-sighted strategy. Or to poke-prod-needle and antagonize Bernie supporters. It's hard to tell.

[NCTraveler]

87. "Or to poke-prod-needle and antagonize Bernie supporters."

You need go no further. That kind of covers it.

But those not supporting Sanders for progressive reasons are outing themselves left and right. That group needs no prodding. The rest of the Sanders supporters are great people overall. Just like we are.

[bowens43]

84. Saying it doesnt make it false either......

[randome]

86. Or they could have Stockholm Syndrome.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Cha]

100. Free Bravenak and all African Americans from the horrible Stockholm Syndrome!

[daleanime]

88. Doesn't make it false either....

if were more balanced, the endorsements would be more believable. But when it's everybody? When have you known democrats to march in lock step? Not very often.

And as for hated, when the polling agrees with my first hand experience, still have meet anyone in person who's exited to be supporting Hillary, why should I think it's wrong?