2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy Denmark isn’t the utopian fantasy Bernie Sanders describes
I would like to share a Washington Post article I just read with the title above.
According to this article, Denmark isn't the heaven on earth Bernie would have us believe.
Since it is obvious that many you don't bother to read the articles which are linked here, I spent a little time pulling some some of the choicer tidbits:
...you still see racial stereotypes in the media here (in Denmark) — the kind of thing which would be unthinkable in the U.S.
....they also record the highest rates of violence towards women
(Denmark) regularly beats the U.S. and virtually every other country on earth in terms of its per capita ecological footprint.
(Denmark's) economy has always benefited from its arms industry, which is one of the world’s largest.
(The Dane's) economy depends far too much on one industry (oil), they’ve taken their foot off the gas in terms of their work ethic
...the quality of the free education and health care is substandard. .... they have the lowest life expectancy in the region, and the highest rates of death from cancer.
And there is broad consensus that the economic model of a public sector and welfare state on this scale is unsustainable. The Danes’ dirty secret is that its public sector has been propped up by — now dwindling — oil revenues
Denmark has the highest direct and indirect taxes in the world, and you don’t need to be a high earner to make it into the top tax bracket of 56% (to which you must add 25% value-added tax, the highest energy taxes in the world, car import duty of 180%, and so on).
Here is the link to the full article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/03/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-bernie-sanders-describes/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_wb-denmark-330pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
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HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I'm glad I live in the United States, where things are run by large corporations, and we don't depend on nasty business like the arms industry!
aidbo
(2,328 posts)
left on green only
(1,484 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(24,675 posts)Mine lasted about 5 minutes after I arrived at work and opened the bag.
Now that I'm retired, I don't drive past that excellent bakery.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)has obviously become an overnight cottage industry, like.. who knew?
Rather amazing really. Now Denmark is E-V-I-L ..... O-o-o-w!
BTW - I don't actually recall Bernie ever saying Denmark was heaven on earth, but
that it has done a few things right, and nations should be able to learn from one another.
Perhaps Denmark can take our example in some above-noted areas, and make their
own improvements.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Michael Booth is an English food and travel writer and journalist who writes regularly for a variety of newspapers and magazines including the Independent on Sunday, Condé Nast Traveller, Monocle[1] and Time Out, among many other publications at home and abroad.[2] He has a wife, Lissen, and two children, Asger and Emil.[3]
In June 2010 Michael Booth won the Guild of Food Writers/Kate Whiteman Award for work in food and travel. His book on Japanese cooking, Sushi and Beyond: What the Japanese Know About Cooking, was adapted into a Japanese television anime series which began airing in April 2015.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Booth
No wonder the op didn't want us to read the article, they're basing their whole premise (Bernie is wrong, Denmark isn't heaven - it sucks!) on a book written by a food critic and travel guide.
Oh and the book he wrote? Look who else loves it, from Amazon:
“A rollicking travelogue . . . [and] a welcome rejoinder to those who cling to the idea of the Nordic region as a promised land.” ―Financial Times
“Sorry, liberals, Scandinavian countries aren't utopias.” ―The New York Post
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)You mean we don't have to invade Denmark after all, to save it from itself?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Amateurs.
BooScout
(10,410 posts)I think he may know a thing or two about living in a heavily socialized system....and the author is also British .....another nation with Socialism much more prevalent than the US.
The author is also spot on with his assessment. Denmark is not the utopia it is portrayed as....no European countries are. They have their faults and problems just like the US. They are not necessarily a cure all to all that ails America.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The op never answered my question.
And thanks for parroting the right wing talking point that liberals think Scandinavian countries are uptopias, you never disappoint.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/scandinavian-miracle-denmark-finland-iceland-norway-sweden
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The desperation is hilarious.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)I love also Norway, Sweden and Finland.
Bernin4U
(812 posts)Say it ain't so!
Them Danes must all be on drugs to rate their country as 10/10 for Life Satisfaction, when it's obviously so crappy.
Got anything on Bernie that doesn't require breaking out the Straw Man?
Cha
(318,793 posts)
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)I read that somewhere.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Do you have a link to where he said that, I must have missed it.
Thanks!
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)The Chicago-boys Chile.
A team of free-market economists educated in American universities, called by the media the "Chicago Boys", helped the military regime to implement long-lasting neoliberal economic reforms. The regime not only re-privatized some previously expropriated property, but also extended its privatizations to pensions, education and health areas.
Didn't they take liberals into a sports stadium and slaughter them with machine gun fire?
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Which seems... I don't know... counterintuitive. (It's not just Scandinavia: suicide seems to afflict "happy" countries most. Maybe being around happy people makes it worse when you're not? Maybe there's a cultural expectation to say you're happy if you're asked?)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's definitely something that Christianity frowns on and I suspect Islam as well, being martyr is one thing outright taking your own life is another.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Plus, we skew the numbers with our insanely high gun availability, so it's hard to directly compare the US on that.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Probably actually a suicide...
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's odd, though: India has relatively easy gun access laws (compared to the rest of the non-US world) but gun suicide is relatively rare; hanging and poisoning are the majority. India is also extremely unusual in that women regularly commit suicide at a rate comparable to men (and in some years higher). AFAIK that's essentially unheard of elsewhere...
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)When asked the question as to how then can the Dane's be among the happiest on earth, the author replied.
No, it’s a nonsense and, in fact, they have dropped from the top spot in recent surveys, mostly because they are not as rich as they once were. The sad take-away from that is, money does, in fact, make you happy. I don’t think they ever were the "happiest" people in the world, but you could argue they have been the most "satisfied." They are good at appreciating the small things in life and making the most of what they have — a legacy, I think, of experiencing the rough hand of geopolitics in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Bernin4U
(812 posts)Which certainly explains why 90% of Americans are grumps.
The baffling thing is, why are they so afraid to do something about it?
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Go figure.
Eric J in MN
(35,639 posts)...is that Denmark has free universities and healthcare.
Nothing in the OP contradicts that.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Solero
(10 posts)Wouldn't be surprised if they were ranked above us. A lot of the European healthcare systems are.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)So why do you and Hillary object to taking lessons observed in other countries? I don't get that. You are saying it is better for millions to go entirely without rather than look to other countries and take their best ideas as our own? Seriously? Cultural isolationism?
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)According to her, the healthcare is substandard. But, she was only born and raised there so how would she know?
Eric J in MN
(35,639 posts)...or healthcare substandard?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)besides anecdote?
Infant mortality maybe? Whose got the better stat on even just that commonly accepted measure?
I'm genuinely curious
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)But I suspect none of this is true anyway. Their education and healthcare has to be substandard simply because Bernie said something positive about it.
Lancero
(3,276 posts)Because the US doesn't exactly set a high bar for either systems.
I don't doubt that Denmark has substandard healthcare and education, in comparison to some countries - But at the same time, the exact same thing applies to the US. We have substandard healthcare and education compared to some countries.
For education, Denmark IS substandard to Japan - http://www.edudemic.com/learning-curve-report-education/
But at the same time, our education system is substandard to Denmark.
For healthcare - These are older numbers, but the WHO has yet to do a more recent study - Denmark is substandard to France - http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
But at the same time, our healthcare system is substandard to Denmark.
Still though... If Denmark is substandard, and we're worse then they are, then what descriptor would be best for our systems? For me, Garbage jumps out immediately.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)Compare those stats to the US and get back to me.
Specious posts really don't belong here.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Denmark Belgium and Finland and they say he's full of shit in general, so....there's that.
Next summer guys, we're a'comin.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)Funny thing about statistics: they are contextual. More extremely patriarchal countries might have relatively low official rates of violence against women, with only the most egregious crimes actually reported, whereas countries like Denmark or Sweden have cultures of relative equality (note, not complete equality), where there are much higher rates of awareness and reporting. I'm not saying that violence against women is not a serious issues there: it certainly is, as it is worldwide. But official and even estimated rates are often the result of higher awareness and more social disapproval, and not merely an indication of naked facts. In countries where social approval of men "disciplining" their wives is high (in some places as high as 80%), many behaviors will be accepted as normal when in places like Denmark it will be deemed violence.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and said "I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people,"
To the OP, do you really object to looking at other places and learning from what they have done?
What is the basis upon which you claim Bernie said it was Utopian?
Where in this article is any information about Norway or Sweden? Bernie did not even say 'Denmark' he said 'countries like Denmark, Norway and Sweden'.
So is Hillary now officially against looking at the world and learning from other nations in their success and in their failures? Is that an official campaign position now? To lie about Bernie, DOMA and remain ignorant to the world around us is what you are advocating, but is your candidate also saying these things?
Refusing to look at other societies to learn from them is just flat out box of rocks stupid.
Vinca
(53,926 posts)I hope Bernie keeps any opinion of Twizzlers to himself.
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)....FREEDOM PASTRIES! (Danish) (which in Denmark are actually called wienerbr0d (wienese bread)
and
FREEDOM BUILDING BLOCKS (Lego)
heh
(sarcasm...why yes i do believe i might have spiced this dish with that)
Armstead
(47,803 posts)http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/scandinavian-miracle-denmark-finland-iceland-norway-sweden
Eric J in MN
(35,639 posts)NT
BooScout
(10,410 posts)It gives a pretty fair and accurate assessment of Denmark and other similar countries.
I don't ever see Americans accepting the tax rates of Denmark and other heavily socialized countries no matter what the trade-off is.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)I encourage that so that you don't embarrass yourself.
BooScout
(10,410 posts)I lived for over 40 years in the States and over 10 years now in the UK.....so I am probably more familiar than most Americans with living in a country with many more policies and programs that arise under Socialism. Thanks for the warning about me not embarrassing myself though.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)...and attempts to make one believe people in US are better off. They aren't. UK is barely EU let alone Northern Europe. But go on with your Thatcheristic view. Clinton/Reagan 2016.
BooScout
(10,410 posts)Of living in the EU for over a decade and being pretty familiar with the systems in use. I don't know where you come up with the UK is barely EU. It's been in the EU a long while now and it one of its most powerful members. Barely in indeed.
There is no denying the high income tax rates in these countries. Neither can one deny the high VATs....in Denmark it's 25%.....then you have fuel tax, cigarette tax, alcohol tax, etc....import tax on cars, etc......all sorts of ways you are taxed.
There are some very good aspects of some of the socialized programs, don't get me wrong.....but neither is it some sort of utopia....and there are a lot of faults.
I find it amusing that so many Americans are advocating for the European systems and the Europeans often advocate for the American way of doing things. There's been a push on here for privatizing.....the NHS, Royal Mail ( already done and done so at a huge cost and loss to the government )....they privatized the train system....now there are occaisional calls to re-nationalise. It's like a vicious cycle....everyone always wants to seem to switch to an entirely new system instead of fixing what is broken or damaged in the system they already have.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Comparing UK to Denmark just doesn't seem right. And where I have not lived abroad, I have known many from Scandinavia. They all complain about taxes, like everyone else in the world. But they expressed satisfaction with the accomplishment, and bewilderment at the US.
It's all anecdotal, but as I remarked, digging into the details of the article and fact checking them leads one to realize it's a hit-piece from a crank. When I came back to the thread, I saw posts indicating the authors background.
Critical thinking is encouraged. Bernie has cited Denmark. The author points out that Danes don't live as long as Swedes. What was left out was that Americans don't live as long as Danes. Minor detail. And that was just the start.
I have researched the facts and, unlike most of Americans ....have lived under both systems. The author of the article has lived in Denmark 10 years himself..... I would speculate he is very familiar with their system.
Fwiw.....Americans life expectancy is probably lower because so many people shoot each other. If Americans want to adopt a good idea that other countries have.....they should look at Gun laws and controls that other countries have.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)And you are right to question the difference in life expectancy. And your point about people shooting one another may well be a significant factor. Everyone is armed in Switzerland without the result we get in the US. So we have to be intellectually honest and keep that in mind.
Let me add infant mortality. The US is at the bottom of industrialized countries in that regard. So that, too, biases life expectancy lower.
But why is infant mortality so high.......? It's the inequality.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)w0nderer
(1,937 posts)Scandinavians count
a lot into their 'tax'
added onto what you already get in tax
take a look at it
your paycheck with tax
then pull the healthcare
401k
dental
vision
sickday pay
insurance against the case of becoming invalid or long term sick
paid kid leave
where'd your percentage end up?
I know my ex wife made $40 000 and she ended up over 50% easy once we did the math the scandinavian way
altho the paycheck said 20% or so
as for fair and accurate assessment, i read it too, it had a couple of points, how much time did you spend there out of curiosity?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)A steaming pile from a food critic looking to trash Senator Sanders for something he never said.
The ripe smell of neoliberal desperation is filling the air.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)What a stupid article.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Denmark United States
Poverty rate: 13.4% vs 15.1%
Average wage: $40,000/yr vs $49,500/yr
Homicides per 100,000 0.8 vs 4.7
Life expectancy: 79.25 vs 78.88
Similar poverty rates, similar incomes, and life expectancies. But US citizens are 6 times more likely to be killed than are Danes.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)http://www.epi.org/publication/ib339-us-poverty-higher-safety-net-weaker/
Average monthly wage (converted from Euros to $): 2564.41 ($30,772/yr) for the US; 3303.25 ($39,639/yr.) for Denmark. Roughly the opposite of what you got.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
UN figures for homicides and life expectancy agree with yours.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)From the article:
Denmark has the highest direct and indirect taxes in the world, and you don’t need to be a high earner to make it into the top tax bracket of 56% (to which you must add 25% value-added tax, the highest energy taxes in the world, car import duty of 180%, and so on).
A typical person in in the US making $31K a year pays somewhere around 19% of his or her income in federal and state taxes, medicare and social security = about $6,000, and considerably less with dependents. I would bet good money that by the time the typical Dane making about $40K a year pays all of his or her taxes, he or she will take home considerably less.
More importantly like some of the oil rich Arab countries, the Danish system is able to shower its citizens with great benefits not only because it collect more taxes on average than any other country in the world, but also because of its taxes on the oil produced in the country and just off shore bring in a large percentage of the country's revenue.
The world's supply of oil is growing ever larger while the Danish stockpiles are growing ever smaller. Not only will Denmark be able to produce less and less oil over time, they will get far less per gallon than they did previously. Sooner or later the Danes are either going to have increase taxes or reduce benefits. That's why many economists, including some Danish economists, believe that their system is unsustainable.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)The Dane probably comes home with 5 or 6 thousand less.
But the medical, education, vacation, shorter work week, child leave, unemployment, and retirement benefits...according to the Danes I know...are well worth that. But these were also people who weren't consumption oriented and who believed in an equitable society.
As to the oil production and economy...that seems less clear.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-02/denmark-at-crossroad-of-oil-turmoil-decides-plunge-is-positive
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)paid family leave - male and female, health care, shorter work weeks etc.
Their taxes actually do go to paying those very tangible things that US workers pay much, much more for individually, with poorer results.
So yeah at the end of each work week, both households have roughly the same amount of $$ in their pocket but US workers are getting shitty health and day care, no family leave time etc etc.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)....used for social programs in Denmark not only comes from their highest in the world taxes, but also from their very high oil income. They are unusually dependent on one industry which is known for its volatility. They are highly dependent on one industry which most people on this board would just as well see become as extinct as the dinosaurs and which responsible people around the globe are working to marginalize.
All of this is happening as the world's known stockpiles of oil is growing. The oil industry on which the Danes are so dependent is facing twin problems. Lessening demand as the people of the earth get serious about global warming and ever growing supply. And this is all happening while Danish stockpiles of oil are diminishing. Denmark is going to end up pumping less oil and getting less per barrel for every barrel they pump.
Government revenues from oil is going to decrease substantially. Denmark already has very high taxes so its capacity to raise still more taxes is limited. They recently passed a tax on retirement benefits which has helped some, but further tax increases are probably not realistic. Already they are new EU limits on percentage of government debt.
Bottom line: There is concern, even in Denmark, as to whether the present Danish social system is sustainable and that the entire Danish system could come tumbling down.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)or that they've chosen to get their services and benefits through taxation rather than everyone paying individually (which means that a substantial minority will always fall through the poverty cracks).
I rather like that nobody in Denmark will freeze to death because they can't pay their utility bill, worry about their bank account if they get cancer, have to choose between eating or buying medicine, or whether they can stay home with a newborn.
I wish we had the same and I'd happily pay more in taxes to ensure that.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)afford that socialist system if oil money were not supplying the a large percentage of the money to pay for their life styles. Heck, I too would love to have the government provide all of those benefits. That would be the ideal, but the real question is whether can Denmark continue to afford it when oil no longer contributes a large portion of their country's revenue.
That day is going to come sooner or later and then they will forced to increase their already huge tax burden or cut benefits. It will be interesting to see what they do.
More importantly, the real question is would that kind of socialist system work in this country even if it were affordable (which is obviously open to question)? The reason I don't think that it will ever be voted in during our life times is because many humans have a great deal of empathy only for others like themselves. I'm by no means saying that is a good trait; I'm just pointing out that it exists. In this the Danes have an advantage. While our population is a mixing pot, about 90% of Denmark's population are natives of the country. Of the 10% immigrate population (defined as people born in Denmark from migrant parents, or parents without Danish citizenship) a little less than a third had their original roots in neighboring Scandinavian countries. So when the average Dane looks around, about 93% of the people she sees are mostly people just like herself. And since the immigrates have a tendency to keep to themselves, she probably see more like near 100% of the people that are just like her.
I believe in such social situations, people are much more likely to have empathy for one another and therefore are much more likely to vote for social programs which have to be paid for with their tax dollars than is possible in our diverse population. I believe that this is one of the main reasons that Danish social system has widespread support in most of the Denmark's 8 political parties. That is certainly not the case here in this country where Republican and most centralist independents would totally oppose a socialist system and you couldn't even get the support of many Democrats.
Politics is famously, "the art of the possible". We have to work within our system to solve our problems of inequality or we will get nothing done.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)the U.S. has almost twice Denmarks infant mortality rate...
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)
Doesn't that mean that if you don't count the children who die as infants, the typical American will live far longer than his/her Danish counterpart? After all, children who die as infants really put a dent in life expectancy averages.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)i freely admit, I'm not an expert but it seems reasonable to assume infant mortality is included in the life expectancy numbers.
I know life expectancy and infant mortality are usually indicators of health care quality.
I just pulled the figure off the WHO website. I'd have to explore the calculation more deeply for a fuller answer.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Bernie just points out that there are some things that can be learned from Denmark. He has never called it Utopian.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I didn't write the article. I just found it interesting and posted it. I'll bet if I truly made a dishonest post, but praised Bernie in it, at best very few of the Sanders, if any, supporters would call me on it. I guess it is just human nature to view with disdain anything that challenges our deeply held view and appreciate anything that supports what we believe in.
Actually, rather than knocking Bernie, my motivation for posting the article was in support of one of my deeply held beliefs that anything - but especially political views - when taken to extremes normally produce unsatisfactory results. I am probably as strong a liberal as you are on all of the issues that matter. Where we probably differ is how we would go about addressing those issues.
People on the far left seem to forget that there are many others in their communities, states, or countries that have views different, and sometimes very different from their own and that those people also have votes. In such a situation one can not take an "it's my way or the highway" approach unless we are prepared to to be the ones leaving town.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)as a "Heaven on Earth". That misrepresentation is dishonest even if you didn't write it.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Someday, someone will have to explain to me why quoting Fox News is frowned up on here but quoting WaPo, "all austerity all the time", is perfectly fine. I'd think a paper whose slavish devotion to shredding Social Security would be taken with a ton of salt, but I guess I'm overly idealistic.
The people crowing over this or agreeing with a book they'd never heard of before clicking on this thread should maybe read up on the criticisms of it. Apparently, the food and travel writer couldn't be bothered to cite actual evidence to back up his claims. Now, I know that asking for evidence is verboten in today's blind faith-based political culture, the right has no monopoly on this trend, but given that the political left makes a pretense at caring about facts, it would be good to at least pretend to care.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)
moondust
(21,283 posts)
(Socialistic places not that good for billionaires.)