Forget about polls. A far better indication of how well Bernie's doing

[MannyGoldstein]

is the volume of insane poo thrown at him by "friendlies".

Bernie's not a Democrat!

Bernie guns!

Bernie's a racist!

You can be sure: if Sanders wasn't being extremely effective, this crap-geyser would not be spraying with such force against a person who is so obviously righteous and decent.

Hey, guess what: Bernie has fought for the 99% for his entire career. He's pro-union and anti-war, in word and in deed. The same can't be said for a certain other candidate, no number of ludicrous attacks on Sanders will change that.

[boston bean]

1. If that is an indicator of how well someone is doing,

Hillary has shot out of the stratosphere, there will be no catching her!

[vt_native]

3. Here's the difference

The criticisms of HRC are based on her record and her statements and her career.

The criticisms of Bernie are not.

[boston bean]

5. yeah.. LOL

[thesquanderer]

19. I rarely agree with you, BB, but you're right on this one.

I've seen some really absurd attacks on HRC, too. Each side has its nutty zealots. One might argue about the number or proportion of such posts, but there's no doubt that they occur on both sides.

[pinebox]

69. You can laugh but it's true

That's why she's criticized. She's a corporate owned candidate and the proof is overwhelming.
Not what America needs, someone who puts corporate interests over people.

[boston bean]

76. yeah, right that's why I laughed. LOL

[pinebox]

83. It's amazing how you Hillary supporters

ignore the glaring facts that your candidate is owned by the 1%. It is what it is but she's no progressive. Heck, not much difference between her and John Huntsman.

Yet you supporters try to rebrand her thinking she's Christ's second coming. She's not. She doesn't offer people much hope and if you paid any attention to what just happened on Tuesday when every middle of the road Dem got their asses handed to them, that should be a message. Try running an actual progressive and winning an election. For once.

What's it going to take dude for you guys to wake up.

[boston bean]

86. uh huh. LOL

[pinebox]

91. Uh huh

That's all you got?
Yup when confronted with reality it's typical...

[boston bean]

92. uh huh. LOL

[pinebox]

95. Care to discuss issues

or are you going to be copy and paste robot?

[Populist_Prole]

113. "uh huh" what?

Uh huh I don't care 'cause I'm a fanboy?

Uh huh I'm a republican concern troll?

Uh huh I'm a wealthy limousine liberal that's hoping for social issue crumbs?

[Live and Learn]

154. She voted for the Iraq War. Are you going to laugh that off too? nt

[Moonwalk]

135. I don't think that's all any Hillary supporter has. I think they're just tired...

...of presenting counter-arguments to someone who doesn't want to hear them or believe them.

Let me ask you this. If you were given facts from a highly reputable source that countered all you've said about Hillary, all you believe about her, and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if elected president she'd get you nearly everything you want (single-payer, taxes on the rich, etc.)....Would you believe those facts? Would it change your mind one iota about Hillary? If not, then why should a Hillary supporter bother arguing with you?

There are plenty of threads here where Hillary supporters, believing Bernie supporters as open to a conversation, presented facts and points discussing each one of the things you named. They admitted to where Hillary had dropped the ball and done badly, but also countered with information on where she was being slandered, correcting inaccuracies, etc. I've seen them. Haven't you? And yet, time and again, someone like you puts up the same list of Hillary's failings, as if those counter arguments don't exist and have never been presented, and draws a line in the sand demanding that the Hillary supporter argue with them or admit that Bernie is better.

Which essentially translates to "Stick around and try to argue with me. I want the chance to keep kicking Hillary, and kicking you for supporting her, until you cry uncle and admit I'm right and put a Bernie sticker on your car." Which always confuses me. Do you really think this is the best way to convert voters to your side?

If you believe Hillary is the devil, and Bernie is a saint, and nothing any Hillary supporter says will change your mind, then, yes, this is all you're going to get from the Hillary supporter. To try and give you more would just be a waste of the supporter's time and yours.

[JDPriestly]

163. The chart in post #83 compares Hillary's and Bernie's records.

Do you have a chart or any information that proves that chart is a lie

The evidence is, in my opinion, overwhelming that Hillary is a weak candidate compared to Hillary -- on the issues alone.

I do not understand how anyone can support Hillary after looking at the charts in #83.

[zeemike]

99. Hillary has one thing Bernie does not have.

A vagina, and that trumps all of that you posted.
That is a sad fact but that is how some people see it...a woman POTUS at all costs.
This is a game of firsts...and the first Jew is way down on that list.

[people]

131. Your post re Hillary and Bernie

I am a 100% Bernie supporter. HOWEVER, I do not like your crude reference to Hillary ("vagina&quot . It is not funny. This is not middle school. It is very demeaning and disrespectful to women in general, including to women who very much support Bernie Sanders.

[zeemike]

136. Well it was not intended to be disrespectful to women

But as a criticism of identity politics...which is disrespectful to the intellect of adults.

But welcome to DU.

[OnyxCollie]

146. I'm a single-issue voter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=763888

[hellraiser69]

169. I don't think

an agnostic Jew counts???? Why I love him,religion has no place in politics, in my humble opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

[kath]

104. Thanks for the post, pinebox. Lays it all out there.

[pinebox]

105. You're welcome and thanks!

[Enthusiast]

141. + a bazillion!

[senz]

162. Beautiful, pinebox. Thanks! (nt)

[Dawgs]

96. Prove it then.

If it's so funny you should be able to show how the criticism of her policy is so stupid.

Tell us why criticizing her voting for and SUPPORTING the worst war in American history is funny.

Tell us why she supported TPP and Keystone while SOS is funny.

Tell us why NOT repealing Glass-Steagal is a such bad idea that it's funny.

Tell us begin against against Single Payer is so laughable.

Go ahead.

[bravenak]

118. There's always a catch when it comes to that WOMAN.

[MannyGoldstein]

159. 'Cos Third-Way Progressive BernieBros hate women

Or they hate insane wars that result in millions of casualties and cost trillions of dollars.

But smart people like us know that it's really because they hate women.

[JDPriestly]

164. Please read Post # 83, and then tell me whether Hillary's stances are represented correctly in

that post and if so how in the world anyone can support Hillary based on the issues.

I do not understand how, based on the issues, anyone can support Hillary.

[retrowire]

16. bingo n/t

[bvf]

119. Wow!

"...Hillary has shot out of the stratosphere..."

Would that this were true.

Does NASA have a link?

[BeanMusical]

148. "Hillary has shot out of the stratosphere"

Oh, that explains a couple of things. Oxygen deprivation, ouch!

[randys1]

152. You beat me to it

[sheshe2]

158. +1000~

Luv ya.

[Yurovsky]

2. And look at the crowds...

Go to a Bernie event, and you see hope, you see passion, you see a real desire to make this country better for everyone.

Go to a pre-packaged, anti-septic Hillary event ... Oh wait, you can't unless you're already a big donor or a paid shill. Look at the crowds on video then... Reminds me of kids being forced to eat their brussel sprouts. Well, except for the 1% fat cats who are laughing at Madame a Secretary's "jokes". I guess it's easy to laugh when you know you can't lose. HRC or GOP, either way Wall Street and big money interests are safe from facing the music, and free to continue to shit on the 99%.

[Amimnoch]

8. That's why Obama faced Ron Paul in '08?

Nobody brought in the crowds like he did!

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Links showing Bernie-sized crowds for Paul?

Thanks in advance.

[Amimnoch]

17. Okay doakee

?

?w=600#Ron%20Paul%20Draws%20Crowd%20Of%20Over%205200%20Same%20Day%20Joe%20Biden%20Speaks%20to%20150%20Supporters%20In%20Wisconsin

#ron%20paul%20rally

More?

[MannyGoldstein]

21. Numbers please?

Thanks.

[Amimnoch]

36. Your search engine broke?

Just the first one on the first search:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/02/paul.convention/
10,320 tickets sold, and that's not even counting the packed numbers watching from the big screens outside for free.

[MannyGoldstein]

37. that's one third of Bernie's largest crowds.nt

[Amimnoch]

40. link to the 33k+ rally?

[Amimnoch]

64. likn?

[Amimnoch]

68. Funny, your great link shows 11K.

Again, where's this 33K crowd you tout?

Heck, right in the title of your link:

Bernie Sanders rally in Los Angeles drew 11,000 more people than the building could hold

Thank you, you've illustrated my point very well.. Bernie and Ron are very alike in their campaigns.

[ColesCountyDem]

75. 16,161

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Memorial_Sports_Arena#Seating_capacity

[Amimnoch]

85. Congrats, you caught me. I didn't read the whole thing.

you win at the internet!

So 17K + 11K, still doesn't hit your claim of 3times.

But you know what? I'm feeling generous today. Fine, Bernie is 3x as popular as Ron Paul was!

[pinebox]

73. Funny, 11k MORE than the building holds

Seating capacity of LA Memorial Arena? 16,100.
Bernie drawing overflow crowd of 11,000.

16,100 + 11,000 = 27,100.

[cannabis_flower]

80. He wasn't that far off

The link says 11,000 outside and later in the article it says the inside crowd was 17,000 inside - that makes 28,000. Which while it's not quite the claimed 33,000, is considerably more than the Ron Paul rally you mention .

[Ned_Devine]

128. The 33, 000 crowd was in my home state in the city of Boston.

My brother was there and he said it was incredible.

[JDPriestly]

167. How about 28,000 in Portland, Oregon for Bernie. Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/10/bernie-sanders-draws-28000-people-in-portland-his-campaign-says/

[SidDithers]

25. Well, this is awkward...nt

Sid

[workinclasszero]

45. Yup those huge rallies for President Paul really were the catalyst

that put him in the white house.

OH WAIT.....


Bernie's big rallies will have the same effect, no doubt LOL

[Amimnoch]

46. Don't forget his big internet polls.

Those are the polls that counted for Paul as well.

[workinclasszero]

51. Big rallies and internet polls

seem to go hand in hand, eh?

The Bernie, feel the bern/revolution/shockwave is looking just like the Paulite one.

[misterhighwasted]

71. You're right. I even recognize the faces in the Bernie crowd

..as the same ones in the Paulite crowd.
Hmm.. but they did change shirts.

[OilemFirchen]

61. Well, he was an agent for change.

Thanks to him, we have the Tea Party.

So... "populism".

[workinclasszero]

62. Change I can't believe in

[Amimnoch]

18. He also did extremely well in select internet based polls...

also sound familiar?

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Polled better than 30% on the average of all polls?

Links please?

Thanks.

[Amimnoch]

41. link please?

[arcane1]

123. And he eventually won the nomination, beating Clinton n/t

[brooklynite]

11. You know the problem with cliche statements? They get stale...

...Clinton does public events almost daily; anyone can sign up to attend. I've posted a number here. And the thing about them, is that you can actually interact with her, as opposed to simply cheering at a speech before 10,000 people.

[CajunBlazer]

101. Don't Mistake Passion for Votes

No doubt that Hillary supporters are less passionate about her candidacy than Bernie supporters about his, but that doesn't mean that Hillary voters aren't passionate enough to go to the polls in very large numbers.

It doesn't affect the final outcome if out of 50K highly motivated Bernie supporters, 30K attend one of his events while out of 100K Hillary supporters only 5K attend one of her events if all of those people end up voting. It is still going to be a 2 to 1 Hillary victory.

Passion only effects elections if the passionate people are successful in convincing others who aren't passionate to vote for their candidate. If passionate Sanders supporters were getting that done, it would have already shown up in the polls. Nationwide that isn't happening.

[treestar]

103. you are making sense

this is not allowed on DU!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

160. If crowds were an indicator

Walter Mondale would have been elected in 1984. I went to his appearance in Seattle and couldn't get close enough to see him.

[DanTex]

4. If Bernie is doing so well, why are Bernie fans so reluctant to simply agree to vote for

the Democratic nominee in the general? I mean, if y'all actually believed the online polls and the facebook likes and all the rest, and you really think Bernie is winning this thing, there wouldn't be any need to threaten to sit out the general, would there?

Don't you want the entire party to be united behind Bernie, who according to you is going to be the nominee? Don't you think it's dumb for someone to sit out the general election or vote third party simply because they are bitter that Hillary didn't get the nomination?

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Non sequitur and a straw man in one post.

Epic!

[DanTex]

7. Dodge.

[thesquanderer]

22. I don't think most BS supporters "really think Bernie is winning this thing."

Saying he has a serious chance, that they think he can pull it off, pointing out hopeful signs, etc., is one thing, but no one can look at the polls and not still see him as the underdog in this race. And of course, obviously, those particular people who say they will not vote for HRC if she's the nominee in November, by definition, believe there is a possibility that HRC will be the nominee in November. Nobody can be certain, but if anything, I see a lot more "certainty" on the HRC side than on the BS side.

(That said, manny is also right that you post was a non-sequitor having nothing to do with his post, and a strawman that knocked down a point he never claimed in the first place.)

[DanTex]

28. Actually, yes, people can look at the polls and not think he's an underdog. They do it all the time.

They believe the polls are corporatist-manipulated propaganda, and the "real people" like Bernie, as expressed by bumper stickers and Facebook likes.

Not all Bernie supporters are like that, of course. Just the irrational ones -- generally the same ones who won't vote for the nominee if it's anyone other than Bernie.

[tex-wyo-dem]

107. Okay, I'll entertain your straw man...

Sure, there are those Bernie supporters who say on an Internet discussion board that they will not vote for HRC if she wins the nomination. I guarantee you that there are those same people who support HRC who would be saying exactly the same thing if the tables were turned , as was exhibited in 2008. They say that now, but when it comes to voting day in Nov 2016, I'm sure most of those will hold there nose and vote for the nominee they swore they'd never vote for.

With that said, I will dawn my hazmat uniform and vote for Hillary if she is the nominee, but not without the full awareness that I am being played as the moneyed interest had planned: voting to prevent a GOP idiot from becoming POTUS.

The oligarchy wants one of two scenarios: 1) a republican POTUS who will bow down and give them everything they want without question, but will risk an outright revolt by the little people, or 2) an owned Democratic POTUS who will still give them mostly what they want, and throw a few bones to the little people to prevent revolt. Win, win for the oligarchy.

[zalinda]

130. This who vote pledge thing

is their excuse for why Hillary didn't win the GE. They'll cry that Bernie supporters wouldn't support Hillary........boo hoo. Except that not all Bernie supporters are dems, and they could care less about Hillary. In fact, probably more than you would like dislike her so much that they wouldn't punch a button for her, much less go out of their way to vote for her.

It's like this....the huge truck in front of you has stopped, no matter what you do, you are going to die. Do you step on the brake to prolong your agony or do you do nothing and just get it over with quickly?

Z

[Amimnoch]

9. Loved that movie!

[BrainDrain]

12. ohhhhhhhh...snarky...

oh...let all simply AGREE to be mindless Demo-robots and fall in line behind HRC!!! She's the ONE! SHE will WIN!!

The really STUPID part of this kind of straw argument is this....ask the same of a HRC supporter..and see what THEY say....go ahead...

I dare ya....

[DanTex]

20. How about let's all vote for the Democratic nominee in the general.

Not sure why Bernie fans have such a big problem with that. Particularly since they all seem so convinced that Bernie is winning, and that the polls are all wrong, in which case we're all going to be voting for Bernie in the general.

[Ed Suspicious]

26. No problem. I just wish we could give our candidates

message a fair airing without our brothers and sisters on the left crying unelectable, unicorn farming, socialist, gun nut.

[DanTex]

32. You don't think they are getting a fair airing? You think that certain arguments should be off

limits, for example, talking about electability or gun control? That would make it fairer?

[Amimnoch]

43. They want far, but when it's to their advantage.

Get with it!



When it's cherry picking 6 specific issues that our candidate evolved on over a 40+ year career (much the way bible thumpers pick out specific passages of the bible to decry homosexuality).. that's okay.

[restorefreedom]

42. how about we have a fair process

that is not rigged for one particular candidate? The party has no right to demand loyalty or votes from anyone. And any hope to request such a vote goes up in flames as soon as they start rigging the process for their preferred candidate.

[think]

27. Hillary sold out to Wall Street banks that wrecked our ecomomy, violated US laws repeatedly

Rigged markets, and bilked their clients for billions.

Hillary has decided it's ok to have lobbyists from those banks on her staff, it was ok to take over $3 million for speeches in 2013 alone from those banks and take millions more in donations to her campaign.

Why is it our fault Hillary decided to sell out to the likes of these banks with long unscrupulous histories?

Iceland refused to bail out banks that wrecked their economy. America bailed the banks out, let their CEOs become billionaires, and continue to violate US laws with impunity.

Enough is Enough!

[DanTex]

31. Blah blah blah.

So vote for someone else in the primary, then in the general, we all vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee.

And since you seem convinced that it's going to be Bernie, what's the problem?

[think]

33. blah blah blah. That's your reply? sad but not surprising....

[DanTex]

60. I get it, you don't like Hillary.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that if Bernie fans really think he's winning, they shouldn't have a problem with making sure we all vote for the Dem nominee in the general.

[think]

89. I don't like big banks screwing people and becoming bigger in the process. And I don't trust Hillary

to end their unscrupulous actions.

It has nothing to do with liking Hillary. It has everything to do with keeping our country safe from banks who have repeatedly violated US laws and utilize loopholes to skirt the law.

Right now the big banks are taking the derivative trade that was at the heart of the last great recession and moving them offshore to avoid regulation thanks to a loop hole in Dodd Frank. A loophole that was created with one sentence added to a 228 page amendment which was authored by Gary Gensler. The same Gary Gensler who is a former partner at Goldman Sachs and is now part of the Clinton campaign.

Vanishing Act

U.S. banks moved billions of dollars in trades beyond Washington’s reach

By Charles Levinson

Filed Aug. 21, 2015, 2 p.m. GMT

Part 2: The story of how Wall Street’s giants got around derivatives rules imposed by the CFTC after the financial crisis. The fix: tweaking contracts and shifting deals offshore.

NEW YORK – This spring, traders and analysts working deep in the global swaps markets began picking up peculiar readings: Hundreds of billions of dollars of trades by U.S. banks had seemingly vanished.

“We saw strange things in the data,” said Chris Barnes, a former swaps trader now with ClarusFT, a London-based data firm.

The vanishing of the trades was little noted outside a circle of specialists. But the implications were big. The missing transactions reflected an effort by some of the largest U.S. banks — including Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Bank of America, and Morgan Stanley — to get around new regulations on derivatives enacted in the wake of the financial crisis, say current and former financial regulators.

~Snip~

Gensler and his staff tucked a 17-word insert into a 228-page amendment to the Dodd-Frank bill. The addition seemed to assure banks that the new derivatives rules wouldn’t apply to their overseas trading operations. Bachus backed off. But the insert was craftily worded to leave wiggle room. If those activities “have a direct and significant connection with activities in, or effect on, commerce of the United States,” then the rules would apply, Gensler’s addition read.

http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-swaps/

More about Gensler:

Hillary Clinton Is Grooming A Former Goldman Banker To Become America's Next Treasury Secretary

By Tyler Durden on 04/17/2015 13:53 -0400

For years on end, many wondered how it is possible that Gary Gensler allowed Wall Street firms to manipulate, rig, and otherwise abuse the US commodity market which he, as head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from 2009 until 2014, was supposed to regulate.

Some, such as this website, suggested that what Gensler was doing was simply protecting his former colleagues from civil or criminal investigation and prosecution. After all Gensler is far better known for not only having worked at Goldman Sachs for 18 years most recently as co-head of finance, prior to joining the CFTC, but for becoming the youngest ever Goldman partner, at the tender age of 30.

~Snip~

Actually no. Gensler was put in so that he would be a figurehead and to neutralize and undo all real attempts at change, those undertaken by his predecessor Brooksley Born, who was truly a focused on fixing America's runaway derivatives doomsday machine until she was shut down by the "committee to save the world" of Summers, Rubin and Greenspan.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-17/hillary-clinton-grooming-former-goldman-banker-become-americas-next-treasury-secreta

If I have to vote against the GOP Hillary probably gets my vote. She doesn't deserve it. Her actions don't merit it. And she won't be good for the American people. She'll just suck less than the GOP. Period.

[DanTex]

94. That's one good reason to vote for Democrats.

[litlbilly]

157. I dont, but, Ill hold my nose and vote for her if she's the nominee

[bahrbearian]

58. Blah Blah Blah

[JoePhilly]

67. Mic drop.

The thread should end with your reply.

[pinebox]

77. Easy Dan

because many Bernie supporters aren't Dems, they're Indy voters and Hillary is to the right of each and every issue pretty much.
She's a corporate candidate who's run of the mill. She's not well liked by anybody and that's why her favor-ability numbers are underwater.

[JTFrog]

109. "She's not well liked by anybody"

You should really get out more. There are millions of voters who really like Hillary. I guess you'll just have to find a way to deal with the reality that exists away from DU.

[cannabis_flower]

87. I'm not..

All of the Republicans views differ from mine in major ways and most of them are batshit crazy! I will vote for Hillary or Martin O'Malley if Bernie doesn't win the nomination.

[rhett o rick]

108. Some people are tired of being manipulated by the Oligarchy into choosing the lesser of evils.

And other people love the Oligarchy and readily fall into line. IMO it's the conservative side that likes to alert, lock, hide and witch hunt. Progressives are more interested in solving problems like 16 million American children living in poverty. The conservative side is more concerned with their backers making immoral profits.

[DanTex]

110. Solving problems, huh. Yeah, because that's exactly what letting the GOP win will accomplish.

[rhett o rick]

112. Nominating HRC is letting the Republicons win. Millions see that she and the REpublicons

agree on most issues. The enthusiasm for Sen Sanders is for a chance to break away from the 1% control of our government.

I am not sure that HRC has indicated that she is concerned about poverty but if she has, you can bet she won't ask her friends and sponsors of the 1% to help. She will push the cost on the already over burdened 99%.

HRC agrees with the Republicons on:

Continual war in the middle east

the Patriot Act and Domestic Spying

The college kids need to get a job to pay off their debts.

The TPP will enrichen the corporations at the expense of the 99%.

Fracking for oil profits takes precedence over clean drinking water for the 99%.

Not regulating her bankster friends.

Cutting (enhancing) SS and Medicare.

Subsidizing the private prison industry.

Toughening the war on drugs and laws against using weed.

[Live and Learn]

155. What I think is dumb is that you keep asking the same question over and over and over. nt

[magical thyme]

10. you forgot SSS...

Sander's Supporters Suck.

[tecelote]

13. Bumper Stickers. 5 to 1 or better.

People love Bernie. The media loves Hillary.

All Bernie needs is more exposure. He is the choice of any concerned American.

[Scuba]

14. Not just smearing Sanders, but adopting his policy positions at the same time.

[hellraiser69]

52. Just pretending to adopt

his policies. If she wins the primary, watch how fast she swings to the right. This is what the MSM says you have to do win the election. If I am wrong I will gladly vote for her

[Scuba]

54. You are, of course, correct. Her rhetoric now will not match her policies if she's elected.

[MisterP]

117. also his supporters--but suddenly the stories of people terrorized by mobs of Berniebros

and people afraid to stand next to each other if they were both dark-skinned at Sanders Nuremburg rallies have evaporated ...

[SidDithers]

24. By that metric, Hillary will win 50 states...nt

Sid

[bahrbearian]

59. With your vote Sid she can win Canada too!

[Art_from_Ark]

88. LOL!

[Dragonfli]

143. Show some sympathy for Sid, he just lost big time in the Canadian election

I imagine he is a bit depressed of late.
After all his Conservative hero lost at home, now he needs to win vicariously via a conservative in our primary to make him feel better.

[bahrbearian]

144. I can only reply with

[polly7]

151. He he ........

Yeah, there are a lot of disgruntled conservatives up here right now. I'm having fun watching them huff and puff. They were so confident before that Harper's slimy tactics and attack ads would work, despite all his crappy decisions and horrible record.

Always amazed that people are so sure everyone else forgets as easily as they seem to - or maybe none of his garbage ever bothered them in the first place and they're naive enough to think it shouldn't anyone else, either.

[DCBob]

29. Please provide quote where anyone claims..

-- Bernie loves guns
-- Bernie is a racist.

If anyone did say that they are either stupid or trolling. No reasonable person would ever say that about Bernie.

And of course you knew that already.

[Nitram]

34. Bernisata are very sensitive about perceived criticism of Bernie.

If a post suggests he should have voted to increase the liability of gun manufacturers they think it is the equivalent of calling Bernie a gun lover. If someone suggests he mishandled a Black Lives Matter protest, they assume that's the same as calling him a racist. I wish they were a little more sensitive about Bernistas when they blatantly call Clinton a corporatist, a liar and cheat.

[DCBob]

35. Yes indeed.

pathetic.

[workinclasszero]

47. Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut

Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut
He supported the most reprehensible pro-gun legislation in recent memory.
By Mark Joseph Stern

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html

[DCBob]

49. That doesnt mean he loves guns.

However, it does mean he is afraid to take on gun owners and the gun lobby.

[workinclasszero]

53. OK

But he empowers those that do.

[DCBob]

56. Agreed.

[senz]

161. But but Hillary supporters deny ever using that term, Gun Nut

And we know they never lie. Ergo, you can't really be a Hillary supporter.

Love that Clinton logic!

[JoePhilly]

70. Manny is playing the War on Christmas, card.

Just because it isn't happening doesn't mean he can't be pissed about it.

[Nitram]

30. If the measure of a candidate's strength is "the volume of insane poo thrown at him by "friendlies"

Then Clinton wins hands down, judging by the posts on DU.

[TBF]

39. I haven't noticed any threads about Lincoln Chafee and

few about Martin O'Malley. Because they are not threats.

[workinclasszero]

44. If I was a Bernie supporter, I'd forget about the polls too

Good plan.

[Orrex]

48. What Sanders' supporters bemoan as "the volume of insane poo..."

Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 10:26 AM - Edit history (1)

Is in fact a reflection of the entirely reasonable and expected concerns about his prospects if he miraculously wins the primary.

And if his supporters get upset about the "insane poo" now, then they're going to disintegrate if he somehow makes it onto the presidential ballot and they have to face the entirety of the GOP attack machine.

Right now Sanders enjoys the luxury of flying under the GOP's radar because they understandably see him as no threat at all. Rest assured that if the stars align and Republicans actually have to worry about him, they'll come out with guns blazing, and Sanders' supporters will long for the mild criticism that so rattled them during primary season.

Clinton has endured these attacks quite handily for decades; will Sanders fare as well?

[peacebird]

50. Exactly!

[Cosmic Kitten]

55. You are validated by the swam attacking this thread!

The dementors cant even refrain from
attacking a thread encouraging Bernistas.

They need to swoop in and *PROVE* Bernie
wasn't, couldn't, won't never ever win.

If there were no threat they wouldn't worry
what a fringe group of uber liberals post
about their sochulist champion, onsome
insignioficant esoteric librul website, in
the bowls of the interweb.

Bernie's no threat
That's why those people spend
their ENTIRE day
trying to convince us of just that!

[Snotcicles]

84. It is a lot easier to attack your opponent when they provide you with double the

material to use against themselves. When you have been on both sides of an issue either side can use it against you.
1. Is you are a flip flop to both sides on the issue.
2. You have been wrong at least once to both sides on the same issue.
When you don't waiver on an issue, you are only wrong, and to only one side, on the issue.

[c-ville rook]

57. I don't understand Hillary supporters in their extreme...

...because first Bernie let Hillary off the hook in the first debate versus going in for the kill. Unlike Hillary who is quite wiling to slander a potential -- if unlikely -- nominee of her own party (unlike Hillary who you don't have to slander to take issue with). Of course, no change there since Obama you'd hoped she might have learned something about graciousness and party unity.

But more so, that because if they are right about Bernie and he is such a women hater and Socialist that he does bolt with his followers when the nomination does not come his way -- then it is likely she will not be not elected anyway if he maintains a decent number of his voters. Because every GOP member from (loon Tea Party to Country Club) is showing up to vote against her. So, again you would think that the PUMA faction (or as I like to call them "the first Birthers&quot might be looking -- if they are so sure of their candidate -- to unity rather than divide the party. Actually, I think they are pretty sure but they remember Obama and are scared.

However, let's be frank with rare exception are the polls wrong. Now, I am voting for Bernie in the the primary. But realistically if Hillary gets the nod I am voting for her. Yes, she is a train-wreck in her own way, but she is no where near the nuclear disasters that stand on the GOP stage. And there are 2 or 3 SCOTUS positions likely to come up all we need is a 7-2 court where CJ Roberts is the liberal voice.

So, Hillary supporters if you are so damn sure of your candidate -- you have done you victory lap pull it together or you'll lose this one in the end because you candidate while "realistic" has all the charm of a middle manager.

[misterhighwasted]

82. Wow, I said that same thing about bernie last week!!!

Bernie is middle managment, small State, local, no foreign policy experience & nothing on the world stage.. where Hillary's experience is an exact fit as a leader.

I said it before you did. Just sayin.

[pinebox]

106. Wasn't that the same argument made against Obama with foreign policy?

I believe that it was.

American people, sans conservatives of course, would rather we start taking care of stuff at home first and foremost.

[c-ville rook]

133. While, I would not call 28 years in Congress no experience.

I am glad you got the chance to post here and prove my point. Although I did not need it -- I appreciate the help.

[pacalo]

147. There you are again!

Try not to worry about Hillary so much that you feel it's necessary to knock down Bernie in almost every thread about him.

[fiveofeleven]

66. Looking forward to the MSM's attempt to explain

how they got it all wrong when Bernie wins the Iowa Caucus. Like when the MSM was so mystified when they finally had to recognize Bernie existed in this race and was also winning. Poles will tell you exactly what the media wants you to believe. The media has a very big financial interest in this election and will provide all the support at their disposal to make sure the candidate that serves their interest wins. So I do not believe any of the poles at this time for any of the candidates. The only pole I will believe is when the people vote. I know who represents my interests and that person is not owing anything to the corporations.

[NCTraveler]

74. Excellent point.

By your standards, everything we are seeing is spot on. Clinton running away with it while Sanders is in a distant second. Using your "poo" throwing metric that sounds just about right.

[randr]

79. A candidates strenght is only measured

by the numbers of people who actually show up to vote for them.
Same goes for an ideology. If people truly believed the far right is dangerous and that the Democratic Party has better answers they would put their votes on the line.
We all know how this works.

[randome]

81. And you have the gall to talk about a 'straw man' elsewhere in this thread?

Your entire OP is built of straw men.


[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Gore1FL]

93. Dome of the same people throw baseless crap about other things

I think it is more a factor of hand-wringing than it is soothsaying.

[stupidicus]

97. it also serves as a good measure of their intellectual heft and integrity

they surely can't really "think" that it's better to elect a warmongering, single-payer-hating, Wall Street-loving, thirdway/rightwinger-lite weathervane before a trail-blazing swami with nice hair, can they?

They "debate" like their rightwing cousins, and spew dishonest nonsense because they know they can't win honestly -- just like them as well. What really matters has been subordinated to junior high school level-like factors.

All this kinda BS about Bernie is nothing more than the use of a rightwing debating tactic they've long used, known as "well, yours is as bad as ours...", when there's really no legitimate comparison.

If you like war, wall street, hate single-payer, etc, then by all means, vote hillary

[karynnj]

98. Either that or the incredible paranoia of the Clinton team and supporters

that causes them to resort to these tactics. It might be that they are trying to do everything different than in 2008 - and one thing is that they are rejecting the idea of running the kind of high minded campaign one could expect from a person who is so much the frontrunner.

What scares me as someone who wants a Democrat to win, though I have since 2000 come to consider that both HRC and BC have - in spite of their successes - been negatives for the party, is that these actions hurt her on what is her biggest liability --- that she has high unfavorables.

Attacking a man who marched with MLK and who endorsed Jesse Jackson when he ran for President - a lead VT voters followed a racist is disgusting. Attacking an essentially decent person using accusations coming from twisting his record - while shifting her own positions to his (at least for the primary)- might hurt Bernie Sanders, but I think it just as likely that - especially when HRC herself joins in -- makes her less likable, something she can not afford.

Now, in 2002, I was prepared to cast a vote for Torricelli, knowing full well that he lacked the character one would want in a Senator. I am disheartened that I will be in that same position in 2016 for President - and a dishonest, nasty campaign will make that feeling ever stronger.

[Catherina]

114. I don't think it's paranoia at all, just a cold calculated tactic

In 2008, the Clintons both burned themselves running a racist campaign and were stung at how strong the backlash was against them and against their supporters who did the same.

So this election, they're using accusations of racism as a tactic and viciously trying to make that accusation stick against Sanders and his supporters.

The accusations of not being Democrat and supporting the gun lobby are just more viciousness along the same lines.

Other than that minor quibble, great post.

[MineralMan]

102. As is the converse, Manny.

Seeya!

[SoapBox]

111. Thank you Manny.

"You can be sure: if Sanders wasn't being extremely effective, this crap-geyser would not be spraying with such force against a person who is so obviously righteous and decent."


I absolutely agree. They are scared, even at this early point and their only tactic (forget talking real issues) is lies and nasty attacks.

We've seen it previously and it's doomed to fail again.

[MasonDreams]

115. Steady Steady Sanders Supporters Remember Gandhi?

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
then they attack you, and then you win!!!

[Tarc]

116. That metric works better in Hillary's favor, actually

judging by the right-wing-ish hate that some are posting here in the last few weeks for her.

[Still In Wisconsin]

121. My own sister, a Hillary fan, told me to "fucking shut up" when I listed reasons why I support

Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Bernie Sanders.

It's Hillary's turn.

If you don't support Hillary you are a misogynist.

If you don't support Hillary that's the same as voting for the Republican.

You're not a democrat.

Hillary is the only candidate with a chance to win.

So you want Trump or Carson to be President?

Blah blah blah...

[MisterP]

138. they really do seem to expect that to win both the primary and the general

"THIS time we got it right"

exactly the same thinking as Libya 2011 ...

[reformist2]

153. I'd just smile and ask her when she became so pro-war and pro-Wall Street.

The thing is, Hillary doesn't even apologize for these votes, putting her supporters in an impossible position.

[azmom]

124. K&R

[Jack Rabbit]

125. You forgot that Bernie's a misogynist

Pay no attention to what Planned Parenthood says!

[valerief]

126. You know you're doing well when they attack you. You're losing when you're

defending yourself.

[HassleCat]

127. Because of open primaries

Sanders is not a threat in states where only Democrats would be allowed to vote for him. It's a different story in states with open primaries, where he could attract independent and crossover votes. Most polls have trouble accounting for this. Overall, things are arranged to be very comfortable for Hillary Clinton, and she could merely sit back and not say anything about her primary opponents. In fact, she would be better off doing so and calling attention to the idiotic displays of the Republicans. She just can't seem to allow any challenge to go unanswered, or at least her campaign cannot.

[fredamae]

129. It's gonna get a Lot Worse! Gotta

shrug it and them off .... like dandruff

[saturnsring]

132. wasnt "forget the polls" The rally cry for the romney campaign and why karl rove was so sure

he would win ohio

[saturnsring]

134. too bad he's unelectable

[pinebox]

165. explain how

[Uncle Joe]

137. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

[WillyT]

139. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[Enthusiast]

140. K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations!

Bernie!

Great post, Manny!

[Dem2]

142. I heard Bernie likes hugging babies too

Is there no end to his list of character flaws?

[humbled_opinion]

145. Has Hillary been

indicted yet? So many here seem to know that the FBI is not going to find any mishandling of classified material in their investigation, I just didn't remember hearing it in the media....

[Capn Sunshine]

149. you spend WAY too much time at the right wing swamp sites

There's no FBI investigation of Hillary. The FBI is running an investigation on her behalf, not an investigation into her. You would think that repeating right wing BS here would have gotten old.

[humbled_opinion]

156. Your reply makes no sense

Why would the FBI be investigating whether her server contained classified information on her behalf, it's her fault she set the thing up... CUCKOOO, CUCKOOO, finding classified emails on here serve is a breach of the law... .NOW she certainly maintains she never sent any but if they are there then someone sent them to her, which is illegal of course, so that leaves the public to believe one of two things either she is a criminal or she is inept, if it is the former she will be indicted if it is the later than then she shouldn't be allowed to touch another classified document as long as she lives..... I am sure the rightwingers are going to sail right on past all of this in the General Election because they just love the CLINTONS.....

Your goal it seems is to put a flawed candidate forward as the Democratic nominee, I won't have any part of that...

The good news of course is that we do have a serious, unflawed, Progressive running for the Democratic nomination so it is obviously not too late...

[merrily]

166. It may or may not be an investigation of her, but it's not an investigation "on her behalf."

It's not being done at her behest or for her benefit. Whoever wrote that the investigation is on her behalf either doesn't know what they're saying or they're being deceptive deliberately. Count yourself among those who need to seek better sources.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/15/us/fbi-tracking-path-of-email-to-hillary-clinton-at-state-department.html?_r=0


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/us/politics/obamas-comments-on-clinton-emails-collide-with-fbi-inquiry.html




be·half
bəˈhaf/
noun
noun: behalf

1.
in the interests of a person, group, or principle.
"votes cast by labor unions on behalf of their members"
synonyms: in the interests of, in support of, for, for the benefit of, for the good of, for the sake of
"a campaign on behalf of recycling"
2.
as a representative of.
"he had to attend the funeral on Mama's behalf"
synonyms: as a representative of, as a spokesperson for, for, in the name of, in place of, on the authority of, at the behest of
"I am writing on behalf of my client"

[Spitfire of ATJ]

150. I'm ashamed of you for stating the obvious.

[smiley]

168. k&r

Go Bernie!

[LWolf]

170. dlc/"centrist"/"new dem"/3rd way/neoliberal "Democrats"

oppose Sanders much more strongly than actual Republicans.

At least, it looks that way to me.