2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAny body language experts here? Hillary's eye-bugging is a tell, I think.
It has been observed by me that every time Hillary wants to make you believe an important point, she widens her eyes so much that the whites show in an almost grotesque degree.
I have been told by an elementary school psychologist that this is what children do when they want you to believe a lie. Widen the eyes as much as absolutely possible.
Yes, this may be trivial. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed that behavior.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Metric System
(6,048 posts)tblue37
(65,227 posts)I am 65 and severely hearing impaired. I have been severely hard of hearing (HoH) my whole life, so life, so I have had to learn to read lips AND to read body language and context clues to figure out what is being said and what is meant. BL signs do not usually have just one meaning. I explain in detail in post #86 why HRC's eye bulging in this debate is probably a matter of emphasis, not deception. Keep in mind that Jimmy Carter bulges his eyes a lot while, speaking, too.
I also offer examples and further exaplanations for cerrain BL signs and facial expressions.
BTW, I am a Bernie supporter.
riversedge
(70,084 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)I'm scared of her presidency. She is not truthful and trustworthy. Perhaps this habit shows something.
riversedge
(70,084 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)She more than any other Senator was responsible for leading Democrats to follow Bush into the Iraq war. Hillary was also the strongest voice in the present Administration pushing serial regime change in Libya and Syria. Expect more and worse when she's President.
You are on the wrong side of history.
riversedge
(70,084 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)I bet you can't and you won't. It's indefensible, as is Hillary' s record on these issues.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)And this may well be why she loses in the General. Thanks a lot. Shame on you.
brooklynite
(94,333 posts)coyote
(1,561 posts)in unfavorable ratings.
72DejaVu
(1,545 posts)The issue was the OP's attempt to raise doubts about her based on her eye movements.
You may now return to complaining that Clinton supporters don't discuss the "real issues".
leveymg
(36,418 posts)But she has about issues big and small. Hence, the fascination with her tells. Nixon was also a transparent liar, and his body language gave him away, often.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Hillary has obviously been coached on how to do a better job of selling her message, but it isn't going to work.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Android3.14
(5,402 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)Is this a meme, too?
It is a stupid one.
http://www.absoluteawareness.ca/are-you-using-shame-as-a-form-of-discipline/
The article is about the use of shame and disciplining children. I used this article because the feel of your and others posts has that feel of parent child. I am sure that is the intent of these posts as well.
It doesn't work and it is very weak in effect.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)Should the poster go stand in the corner too?
Scolding a Democrat for standing up for Democratic principles, isn't the way to go.
I'm tired of people suggesting that I'm supposed to suck it up and climb on board when a Democratic politician is a neocon, a corporatist and a magnet for corporate funds from global greedmongers who love to buy them some politicians. We're supposed to shake our pom poms when a fellow Dem participates in the corporate-pay-to-play game that is destroying our democracy.
And if we don't enthusiastically support Dems who do this, we are shamed and relegated to the kid's table because we're just too stupid to sit with the adults who go along with whatever heinous actions a politician does--simply because they gave a "D" after their name.
I've been a Democrat for a few decades, and I could never have envisioned what some of my fellow Democrats are willing to accept. Bernie is a true Democrat. He's another FDR. And I fear for this country if he is not elected the next President.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)EOM
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)To me, it is very clear she has received advice on how to SHOW she is listening (whites of the eye), SHOW she is receptive (head bobbing), etc.
She is VERY VERY focused on how she appears. What worries me is that it shows how she is more committed to appearance than in reality.
I don't want that any more. The creation of reality by creating the appearance is what Bush bragged about it. I am over it.
I want reality and I think Bernie is the most real liberal out there.
I think Hillary is rather fake and I think many people perceive that as well.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,142 posts)It may be that she is trying to appear moth truthful by keeping her eyes wide and blinking less. The head bobbing I find annoying. It's like she 's nodding over and over to let you know she's listening, but I wonder if she's really listening or preparing her answer.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)It seems to occur when she is trying to make a particular point from her opinion.
swilton
(5,069 posts)unfortunately, I would characterize Obama that way. His emphasis was more on rhetoric than the fake body language.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)GusBob
(7,286 posts)mcar
(42,278 posts)I heard from someone who is an expert in the field that any woman who wears pantsuits is a liar.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)talking about the "meekness", my word, of the Clinton campaign. Using the scenario if JFK had said we couldn't go to the moon.
That is the most striking thing of this video, because I believe a lot of Sanders' suppporters also feel that the meekness of her campaign now is not what we want.
The body expert was pretty fair, btw.
Response to artislife (Reply #21)
NCTraveler This message was self-deleted by its author.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)I guess Reddit ran out of anon material.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)aidbo
(2,328 posts)beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)It shows that she's a fighter! And she's got our backs! And African Americans love her! (etc.)
jkbRN
(850 posts)She also does it when she is asked a question she doesn't really like. She did it a lot in her first interview (in this election cycle) on CNN
grasswire
(50,130 posts)As I have said, it seems like a way of asserting her dominance. It's almost like "I dare you to challenge me".
jkbRN
(850 posts)I am gonna make gifs out of her CNN interview. I don't know how other ppl don't notice it, I was literally blown away (well kind of) that the MSM didn't talk about that at all.
There is a documentary on body language that talks about HRC, (as well as other political figures) although, they don't talk about her "buggy eye look", (my awesome & pristine description LOL) nonetheless, it's pretty interesting if you are able to find the time to watch it
Link for the film:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/3ppajk/secrets_of_body_language_2008_the_science_behind/?
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)especially of OP topics.
Any questions?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)But I know the answers already.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)We know what it means when someone smiles and nods. We know what it means when our kids eyes go big and they say they didn't steal cookies out of the cookie jar. We know what it means when someone gets stiff and their lips get very stiff.
I don't think the eye thing is a tell though. I would look more at whether she is looking up to the right or down to the left.
LuvLoogie
(6,913 posts)I'm sure that can of strawberries will turn up. Keep looking...
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)toshiba783
(74 posts)While they are at it should they also analyze Bernie Sander's sometimes strange body language as well? The way his eyes can quickly shift from left to right for an unusual amount of time, all without making eye contact? This was especially noticeable when he was discussing his vote dealing with guns on trains.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)at a Las Vegas speech in Sept regarding the behavior you mentioned.
"For relatively long stretches, given that she was holding a news conference, Clinton repeatedly closed her eyes. By itself, that facial muscle activity is a sign of sadness. But add to this how often she also raised her eyebrows, in ways not necessarily emphasizing her comments. This was unusual for her. And it usually signifies both sadness and anxiety."
grasswire
(50,130 posts)raising her eyebrows. That exposes the sclera above the pupils. That's the exact phenomenon I'm seeing.
Since I posted the OP, I have read quite a bit on the internet about facial language. Raising the eyebrows and exposing the sclera is noted to be an expression that signifies trying to look more youthful, in a woman. Wide eyed. Not flirting, but trying to appear youthful.
It seems to me, though, that she is trying to appear assertive and authoritative when she does many of the things she does.
madamesilverspurs
(15,798 posts)Nope, it definitely is.
brooklynite
(94,333 posts)...maybe you'll catch her with her fingers crossed so it doesn't count...
Thread win.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)that elementary school psychologists are not very proficient.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Seriously? What does BS' body language say? Why shouldn't that be discussed too then?
So much for "the issues."
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)dsc
(52,152 posts)and using drowning stools to sniff out witches.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Used to be reliable for excellent posts. A true come down.
MineralMan
(146,254 posts)Just uff da!
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)This place is tipping over the cliff, when this crap passes as political discourse.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... it must be true!!!
doc03
(35,295 posts)to help Bernie.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Faux pas
(14,644 posts)thucythucy
(8,038 posts)I'm sure others have already asked you to delete, but I guess that's not going to happen.
Absurd and useless shit stirring, and insulting to anyone whose appearance or mannerisms don't confirm to some arbitrary standard of "normal."
"Trivial." Indeed. And as someone who's been active in the disability rights movement I also find it particularly repellent.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)And it is telling. But it has nothing to do with Hillary's eyes.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"We've noticed some behavior"
Cue spooky organ music.
Good christ, the OP is silly, but listen to yourself. (Selves?)
zappaman
(20,606 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Camp Bottom of the Barrel needs new material. School uniforms. Eyes. Yeah, really deep discussion of issues.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)nm
onenote
(42,585 posts)presumably he/she has gone off to research the psychological implications of restless leg syndrome.
pinstikfartherin
(500 posts)Response to grasswire (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
senz
(11,945 posts)With Hillary, I've long thought that these exaggerated expressions were a deliberate attempt to seem spontaneous and very engaged with whomever she's interacting. I've seen her do it most often in big pubic situations, reacting to people she doesn't know. I think she intends it to show that she's very interested in the person; it's a way of flattering them, making them feel special. I doubt she does this in private.
Another one that she does -- and her daughter also does -- is to point at someone in the crowd with a big raised-eyebrow smile, sort of like saying, "Oh, it's YOU!" In other words, I think it's political in intent. I don't know if she is aware how strange it sometimes appears.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)But I think that it's not just Hillary that does the Oh It's You thang. I suspect that many politicians and celebs do that.
The information that I have read about the reasons why a woman may deliberately show sclera and raise eyebrows is interesting. It's a subliminal signal of youthfulness.
I don't think we know enough about facial language. We react to it instinctively in big ways, though.
senz
(11,945 posts)Perhaps Hillary is invested in seeming youthful -- to counteract accusations of being too old -- or she may have been told that she seems too stern or something. I've noticed some older male politicians will play up the "strong, fit, and virile" appearance by almost running up or down stairs. Our society puts so much emphasis on youth.
Beaverhausen
(24,470 posts)Seriously, what has become of this place?
oasis
(49,326 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)The sneering and defensiveness is astounding. I hope you're not letting the swarm intimidate you, grasswire.
Body language and facial expressions are forms of communication and, as such, legitimate subjects of study. There is nothing wrong with analyzing a presidential candidate's nonverbal communication.
Here's an interesting document on cultural aspects of body language: http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_6.htm
Beacool
(30,247 posts)This site has become good only for laughs.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Shouting?
senz
(11,945 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Tomorrow.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Open their mouths.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)I saw a small child run crying from the room when Fiorino started her mad face stuff.
Reminds me of the words of an old song: She's colder than an Arctic storm; even ice men leave her alone.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Not anything to do with eye-buggin'.
I think your premise is a bit silly.
tblue37
(65,227 posts)high degree of social engagement, as expert as dogs when it comes to reading body language, since we rely on such clues to help us understand what we only partially glean from the combination of sounds, lipreading, and context clues.
Eye-bugging, like most body language (BL) signals can have more than one meaning, depending on the context and, at least in most cases, the person whose BL we are interpreting.
For example, the evidently honest character of Jimmy Carter would prevent us from reading his recurrent eye pops as signs of deception. In his case we would probably say he either has a stylistic tic in which he pops his eyes for emphasis or, and this is more likely, a physical tic of pathological origin. I know several people with such minor tics (throat clearing, eye popping, deep-snorting {a particularly gross tic, I might add, with its wet snot sound}), and for most of them, the reason is pretty clearly physiological rather than psychological/emotional. Some do increase their tic frequency under psychological or physical stress, but most do not.
Since Tourette Syndrome derives from brain lesions caused by untreated strep infections, I suspect that many people, especially older people who experienced strep infections from insect bites or strep throat, but who had to get over it on their own before antibiotic treatment was available to prevent longterm damage, ended up with such brain lesions. For most who survived a strep infection, the brain lesions would probably be few and not particularly significant, but they could still produce a minor tic, or perhaps even a small cluster of related minor tics.
I suspect that Jimmy Carter's eye-bugging is such a tic, but that since it already exists as part of his physical pattern, he naturally increases the movement when he is speaking emphatically. Watch him in a video of an interview sometime. You will see him emphasize points by stretching his eyes that way. Carter's frequent smiling in odd places as he speaks is, I believe, another such tic. Dan Ackroyd captured the Carter smile tic in his impersonations, but did not imitate the eye bulging tic.
Now, eye bulging can mean the speaker is trying to deceive the listener by forcefully NOT overblinking, but it is just as likely that the speaker is unconsciously using the expression as a form of emphasis. Try it yourself. Imagine you are standing in front of an audience. Begin talking about something you consider extremely important. At key points you should experience physiological tension in various parts of your body. Your eyebrows might rise and thus tighten your forehead into a contracted wrinkling, which is often a sign of insincerity, but in this case would just be emphatic expression of important points.
As you raise your brows and contract your forehead, notice how your eyes bulge out. See? It is part of the BL consequences of speaking forcefully for emphasis. Probably you pushed your face slightly forward and began to gesture with your arms and hands at the same time, as HRC did whenever her eyes bulged, and your voice volume increased, as hers did.
IOW, she was speaking emphatically, so her entire face and body tensed up as a natural consequence of doing so--as would anyone's. If you watch the other candidates at moments of emphasis, you will see them engage in facial expressions and BL that could also be interpreted as negative signs if the observer is not sympathetic to the speaker. I support Bernie, but if I did not, I could misread his typical emphatic mouth clench as evidence of anger and an ugly temper. His typical double-hand/palm downward gesture is, when used by some people under some circumstances, a sign of contempt, dominance, and control.
IOW, BL signals can have more than one meaning. Dogs and deaf/hearing impaired people have *a LOT* of practice reading the signals in various contexts, so we are less likely to take one gesture or expression out of context and assume it has only one possible meaning in every circumstance.