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grasswire

(50,130 posts)
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:45 PM Nov 2015

Any body language experts here? Hillary's eye-bugging is a tell, I think.

It has been observed by me that every time Hillary wants to make you believe an important point, she widens her eyes so much that the whites show in an almost grotesque degree.

I have been told by an elementary school psychologist that this is what children do when they want you to believe a lie. Widen the eyes as much as absolutely possible.

Yes, this may be trivial. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed that behavior.

87 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Any body language experts here? Hillary's eye-bugging is a tell, I think. (Original Post) grasswire Nov 2015 OP
Yes. I think that's a sign of psychopathy. Cheese Sandwich Nov 2015 #1
I'd say you forgot the "sarcasm" tag but I doubt you did. Metric System Nov 2015 #55
Please read my long explanation way down in this thread (post #86). tblue37 Dec 2015 #87
Oh grow up and stop making fun of her. riversedge Nov 2015 #2
I'm not making fun of her. grasswire Nov 2015 #6
Yes, you are. The only thing showing is your disrespect for a Dem. candidate. Shame on you. riversedge Nov 2015 #12
Shame on you. HRC is the leading neocon in the Dem Party leveymg Nov 2015 #14
Try staying on topic. I will not discuss what you are posting. Bye. riversedge Nov 2015 #16
You don't set the topics here. Stick around and defend your statement. leveymg Nov 2015 #20
And by the way, Hillary does lie a lot. Which is why most voters distrust her leveymg Nov 2015 #26
Remind me which candidate is leading the Democratic contest by 20+ points? brooklynite Nov 2015 #34
Remind me again which candidate is leading coyote Nov 2015 #39
Hillary's record wasn't the issue 72DejaVu Nov 2015 #27
If HRC didn't lie a lot, this wouldn't even be a topic. leveymg Nov 2015 #28
Those of us old enough to remember Nixon know how important body language is used to sell a message. Major Hogwash Nov 2015 #59
Looks like actual issues are like garlic to a vampire AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #71
Well said Android3.14 Nov 2015 #33
"Shame on you" artislife Nov 2015 #17
What's next? CoffeeCat Nov 2015 #31
" Oh grow up and stop making fun of her." DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2015 #45
I will say this. "Polished" is a word that Hillary supporters choose... Bonobo Nov 2015 #3
Well, people tend to blnk more when they are lying TexasBushwhacker Nov 2015 #22
I think she's trying to project authority and domination grasswire Nov 2015 #70
Manufactured and swilton Nov 2015 #32
Polished hootinholler Nov 2015 #49
Oh, that nodding head! merrily Nov 2015 #77
Only body language experts should reply to this thread? GusBob Nov 2015 #4
Eye bugging? mcar Nov 2015 #5
Here is a body language "expert" talking about Hillary. NCTraveler Nov 2015 #7
I love the last bit with Obama artislife Nov 2015 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author NCTraveler Nov 2015 #40
Eye bugging? leftofcool Nov 2015 #8
lol! nt m-lekktor Nov 2015 #9
I don't put much stock in reading body language. nt aidbo Nov 2015 #10
Well, the Swarm is here, and the consensus is, it's just one more of her presidential qualities! beerandjesus Nov 2015 #11
I've noticed it too, jkbRN Nov 2015 #13
yeah, then too grasswire Nov 2015 #83
Yes!!! Totally! jkbRN Nov 2015 #85
No. But I am an internet language expert Control-Z Nov 2015 #15
So many... Agschmid Nov 2015 #18
We are all body language experts unless we are neuroatypical, then maybe not. Kalidurga Nov 2015 #19
Okay, Captain Queeg... LuvLoogie Nov 2015 #23
Rec'd for the chuckle factor. I needed a laugh. CentralMass Nov 2015 #24
Body language experts? toshiba783 Nov 2015 #25
Dan Hill, Ph.D. and author of Emotionomics had this to say regarding Hilary EndElectoral Nov 2015 #29
there it is! grasswire Nov 2015 #58
"May" be trivial?? madamesilverspurs Nov 2015 #30
I would check her hands... brooklynite Nov 2015 #35
LOL CrispyQ Nov 2015 #48
Oh for fuck's sake. NuclearDem Nov 2015 #36
Double fucks's sake. nt kelliekat44 Nov 2015 #38
I've been told by an intermediate school psychologist cosmicone Nov 2015 #37
Oh for crying out loud treestar Nov 2015 #41
You beat me to it. nt Skidmore Nov 2015 #42
I suppose next you'll be consulting Oijua boards dsc Nov 2015 #43
Pitiful alcibiades_mystery Nov 2015 #44
Uff da! MineralMan Nov 2015 #46
Really? Adrahil Nov 2015 #47
Well, if an elementary school psychologist told you that ... JoePhilly Nov 2015 #50
Well you did a good job of planting more bullshit doc03 Nov 2015 #51
Thank goodness she didn't sigh! NurseJackie Nov 2015 #52
kickin' Faux pas Nov 2015 #53
What a ridiculous OP. thucythucy Nov 2015 #54
don't know what's funnier, the OP or that it's gotten 18 recs. wyldwolf Nov 2015 #56
We've definitely noticed some behavior. JTFrog Nov 2015 #57
Im sure it's going on someone's permanent record. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #80
Ok. zappaman Nov 2015 #60
I didn't do it! lumberjack_jeff Nov 2015 #61
No, this is pretty stupid. Starry Messenger Nov 2015 #62
That, and she cackles like a hen when she's lying ThePhilosopher04 Nov 2015 #63
I see the OP has retired from the playing field after only one additional post onenote Nov 2015 #64
Another thread to the trash for stupidity. nt pinstikfartherin Nov 2015 #65
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2015 #66
I find people's expressions and body language interesting. senz Nov 2015 #67
yes, that. grasswire Nov 2015 #69
That's a good point. Candidates don't want to look "too old." senz Nov 2015 #74
18 recs for this crap Beaverhausen Nov 2015 #68
"this may be trivial" . Do you really think so? oasis Nov 2015 #72
I'm surprised Hillary supporters are so threatened by this subject. senz Nov 2015 #73
Scraping the bottom of the barrel? Beacool Nov 2015 #75
What does a body language expert say about someone shouting, especially when saying others are Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #76
What does anyone say about those who repeat falsehoods all day long? senz Nov 2015 #78
I wonder that also, there are a lot of falsehoods going on every day, debunked today and back Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #82
Off the subject, Ive noticed that when Ben Carson or Carlie Fiorina are about to lie, they Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #79
oh, Fiorino! grasswire Nov 2015 #84
My biggest hesitancy around voting for her in the primary has to do with some of her votes Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #81
We who are severely hearing impaired are, if we are committed to maintaining a tblue37 Dec 2015 #86

tblue37

(65,227 posts)
87. Please read my long explanation way down in this thread (post #86).
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 02:29 PM
Dec 2015

I am 65 and severely hearing impaired. I have been severely hard of hearing (HoH) my whole life, so life, so I have had to learn to read lips AND to read body language and context clues to figure out what is being said and what is meant. BL signs do not usually have just one meaning. I explain in detail in post #86 why HRC's eye bulging in this debate is probably a matter of emphasis, not deception. Keep in mind that Jimmy Carter bulges his eyes a lot while, speaking, too.

I also offer examples and further exaplanations for cerrain BL signs and facial expressions.

BTW, I am a Bernie supporter.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
6. I'm not making fun of her.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:52 PM
Nov 2015

I'm scared of her presidency. She is not truthful and trustworthy. Perhaps this habit shows something.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
14. Shame on you. HRC is the leading neocon in the Dem Party
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:31 PM
Nov 2015

She more than any other Senator was responsible for leading Democrats to follow Bush into the Iraq war. Hillary was also the strongest voice in the present Administration pushing serial regime change in Libya and Syria. Expect more and worse when she's President.

You are on the wrong side of history.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
20. You don't set the topics here. Stick around and defend your statement.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:47 PM
Nov 2015

I bet you can't and you won't. It's indefensible, as is Hillary' s record on these issues.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
26. And by the way, Hillary does lie a lot. Which is why most voters distrust her
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:11 AM
Nov 2015

And this may well be why she loses in the General. Thanks a lot. Shame on you.

72DejaVu

(1,545 posts)
27. Hillary's record wasn't the issue
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:14 AM
Nov 2015

The issue was the OP's attempt to raise doubts about her based on her eye movements.

You may now return to complaining that Clinton supporters don't discuss the "real issues".

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
28. If HRC didn't lie a lot, this wouldn't even be a topic.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:20 AM
Nov 2015

But she has about issues big and small. Hence, the fascination with her tells. Nixon was also a transparent liar, and his body language gave him away, often.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
59. Those of us old enough to remember Nixon know how important body language is used to sell a message.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:14 AM
Nov 2015

Hillary has obviously been coached on how to do a better job of selling her message, but it isn't going to work.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
17. "Shame on you"
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:40 PM
Nov 2015

Is this a meme, too?

It is a stupid one.

One of the factors is shame…and I think it’s a big one. Shame is used to verbally stop unwanted and undesirable behaviour. Shame is often used as a form of discipline. Of course, we don’t always see that this is the case.


http://www.absoluteawareness.ca/are-you-using-shame-as-a-form-of-discipline/

The article is about the use of shame and disciplining children. I used this article because the feel of your and others posts has that feel of parent child. I am sure that is the intent of these posts as well.

It doesn't work and it is very weak in effect.

CoffeeCat

(24,411 posts)
31. What's next?
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:32 AM
Nov 2015

Should the poster go stand in the corner too?

Scolding a Democrat for standing up for Democratic principles, isn't the way to go.

I'm tired of people suggesting that I'm supposed to suck it up and climb on board when a Democratic politician is a neocon, a corporatist and a magnet for corporate funds from global greedmongers who love to buy them some politicians. We're supposed to shake our pom poms when a fellow Dem participates in the corporate-pay-to-play game that is destroying our democracy.

And if we don't enthusiastically support Dems who do this, we are shamed and relegated to the kid's table because we're just too stupid to sit with the adults who go along with whatever heinous actions a politician does--simply because they gave a "D" after their name.

I've been a Democrat for a few decades, and I could never have envisioned what some of my fellow Democrats are willing to accept. Bernie is a true Democrat. He's another FDR. And I fear for this country if he is not elected the next President.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
3. I will say this. "Polished" is a word that Hillary supporters choose...
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:49 PM
Nov 2015

To me, it is very clear she has received advice on how to SHOW she is listening (whites of the eye), SHOW she is receptive (head bobbing), etc.

She is VERY VERY focused on how she appears. What worries me is that it shows how she is more committed to appearance than in reality.

I don't want that any more. The creation of reality by creating the appearance is what Bush bragged about it. I am over it.

I want reality and I think Bernie is the most real liberal out there.

I think Hillary is rather fake and I think many people perceive that as well.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,142 posts)
22. Well, people tend to blnk more when they are lying
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:51 PM
Nov 2015

It may be that she is trying to appear moth truthful by keeping her eyes wide and blinking less. The head bobbing I find annoying. It's like she 's nodding over and over to let you know she's listening, but I wonder if she's really listening or preparing her answer.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
70. I think she's trying to project authority and domination
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:41 PM
Nov 2015

It seems to occur when she is trying to make a particular point from her opinion.

 

swilton

(5,069 posts)
32. Manufactured and
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:34 AM
Nov 2015

unfortunately, I would characterize Obama that way. His emphasis was more on rhetoric than the fake body language.

mcar

(42,278 posts)
5. Eye bugging?
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:52 PM
Nov 2015

I heard from someone who is an expert in the field that any woman who wears pantsuits is a liar.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
21. I love the last bit with Obama
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:48 PM
Nov 2015

talking about the "meekness", my word, of the Clinton campaign. Using the scenario if JFK had said we couldn't go to the moon.


That is the most striking thing of this video, because I believe a lot of Sanders' suppporters also feel that the meekness of her campaign now is not what we want.


The body expert was pretty fair, btw.

Response to artislife (Reply #21)

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
11. Well, the Swarm is here, and the consensus is, it's just one more of her presidential qualities!
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:09 PM
Nov 2015

It shows that she's a fighter! And she's got our backs! And African Americans love her! (etc.)

jkbRN

(850 posts)
13. I've noticed it too,
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:21 PM
Nov 2015

She also does it when she is asked a question she doesn't really like. She did it a lot in her first interview (in this election cycle) on CNN

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
83. yeah, then too
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 07:56 PM
Nov 2015

As I have said, it seems like a way of asserting her dominance. It's almost like "I dare you to challenge me".

jkbRN

(850 posts)
85. Yes!!! Totally!
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 10:23 PM
Nov 2015

I am gonna make gifs out of her CNN interview. I don't know how other ppl don't notice it, I was literally blown away (well kind of) that the MSM didn't talk about that at all.

There is a documentary on body language that talks about HRC, (as well as other political figures) although, they don't talk about her "buggy eye look", (my awesome & pristine description LOL) nonetheless, it's pretty interesting if you are able to find the time to watch it

Link for the film:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/3ppajk/secrets_of_body_language_2008_the_science_behind/?

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
19. We are all body language experts unless we are neuroatypical, then maybe not.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:47 PM
Nov 2015

We know what it means when someone smiles and nods. We know what it means when our kids eyes go big and they say they didn't steal cookies out of the cookie jar. We know what it means when someone gets stiff and their lips get very stiff.

I don't think the eye thing is a tell though. I would look more at whether she is looking up to the right or down to the left.

toshiba783

(74 posts)
25. Body language experts?
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:03 AM
Nov 2015

While they are at it should they also analyze Bernie Sander's sometimes strange body language as well? The way his eyes can quickly shift from left to right for an unusual amount of time, all without making eye contact? This was especially noticeable when he was discussing his vote dealing with guns on trains.

EndElectoral

(4,213 posts)
29. Dan Hill, Ph.D. and author of Emotionomics had this to say regarding Hilary
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:22 AM
Nov 2015

at a Las Vegas speech in Sept regarding the behavior you mentioned.

"For relatively long stretches, given that she was holding a news conference, Clinton repeatedly closed her eyes. By itself, that facial muscle activity is a sign of sadness. But add to this how often she also raised her eyebrows, in ways not necessarily emphasizing her comments. This was unusual for her. And it usually signifies both sadness and anxiety."

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
58. there it is!
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 02:59 PM
Nov 2015

raising her eyebrows. That exposes the sclera above the pupils. That's the exact phenomenon I'm seeing.

Since I posted the OP, I have read quite a bit on the internet about facial language. Raising the eyebrows and exposing the sclera is noted to be an expression that signifies trying to look more youthful, in a woman. Wide eyed. Not flirting, but trying to appear youthful.

It seems to me, though, that she is trying to appear assertive and authoritative when she does many of the things she does.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
37. I've been told by an intermediate school psychologist
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 01:52 AM
Nov 2015

that elementary school psychologists are not very proficient.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
41. Oh for crying out loud
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 08:59 AM
Nov 2015

Seriously? What does BS' body language say? Why shouldn't that be discussed too then?

So much for "the issues."

thucythucy

(8,038 posts)
54. What a ridiculous OP.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 01:23 PM
Nov 2015

I'm sure others have already asked you to delete, but I guess that's not going to happen.

Absurd and useless shit stirring, and insulting to anyone whose appearance or mannerisms don't confirm to some arbitrary standard of "normal."

"Trivial." Indeed. And as someone who's been active in the disability rights movement I also find it particularly repellent.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
57. We've definitely noticed some behavior.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 01:34 PM
Nov 2015

And it is telling. But it has nothing to do with Hillary's eyes.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
80. Im sure it's going on someone's permanent record.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 06:43 PM
Nov 2015

"We've noticed some behavior"

Cue spooky organ music.


Good christ, the OP is silly, but listen to yourself. (Selves?)

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
62. No, this is pretty stupid.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:23 AM
Nov 2015

Camp Bottom of the Barrel needs new material. School uniforms. Eyes. Yeah, really deep discussion of issues.

onenote

(42,585 posts)
64. I see the OP has retired from the playing field after only one additional post
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:30 AM
Nov 2015

presumably he/she has gone off to research the psychological implications of restless leg syndrome.

Response to grasswire (Original post)

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
67. I find people's expressions and body language interesting.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:15 AM
Nov 2015

With Hillary, I've long thought that these exaggerated expressions were a deliberate attempt to seem spontaneous and very engaged with whomever she's interacting. I've seen her do it most often in big pubic situations, reacting to people she doesn't know. I think she intends it to show that she's very interested in the person; it's a way of flattering them, making them feel special. I doubt she does this in private.

Another one that she does -- and her daughter also does -- is to point at someone in the crowd with a big raised-eyebrow smile, sort of like saying, "Oh, it's YOU!" In other words, I think it's political in intent. I don't know if she is aware how strange it sometimes appears.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
69. yes, that.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:35 PM
Nov 2015

But I think that it's not just Hillary that does the Oh It's You thang. I suspect that many politicians and celebs do that.

The information that I have read about the reasons why a woman may deliberately show sclera and raise eyebrows is interesting. It's a subliminal signal of youthfulness.

I don't think we know enough about facial language. We react to it instinctively in big ways, though.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
74. That's a good point. Candidates don't want to look "too old."
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:10 PM
Nov 2015

Perhaps Hillary is invested in seeming youthful -- to counteract accusations of being too old -- or she may have been told that she seems too stern or something. I've noticed some older male politicians will play up the "strong, fit, and virile" appearance by almost running up or down stairs. Our society puts so much emphasis on youth.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
73. I'm surprised Hillary supporters are so threatened by this subject.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:59 PM
Nov 2015

The sneering and defensiveness is astounding. I hope you're not letting the swarm intimidate you, grasswire.

Body language and facial expressions are forms of communication and, as such, legitimate subjects of study. There is nothing wrong with analyzing a presidential candidate's nonverbal communication.

Here's an interesting document on cultural aspects of body language: http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_6.htm

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
82. I wonder that also, there are a lot of falsehoods going on every day, debunked today and back
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 06:46 PM
Nov 2015

Tomorrow.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
79. Off the subject, Ive noticed that when Ben Carson or Carlie Fiorina are about to lie, they
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 06:41 PM
Nov 2015

Open their mouths.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
84. oh, Fiorino!
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 07:59 PM
Nov 2015

I saw a small child run crying from the room when Fiorino started her mad face stuff.

Reminds me of the words of an old song: She's colder than an Arctic storm; even ice men leave her alone.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
81. My biggest hesitancy around voting for her in the primary has to do with some of her votes
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 06:44 PM
Nov 2015

Not anything to do with eye-buggin'.

I think your premise is a bit silly.

tblue37

(65,227 posts)
86. We who are severely hearing impaired are, if we are committed to maintaining a
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 02:16 PM
Dec 2015

high degree of social engagement, as expert as dogs when it comes to reading body language, since we rely on such clues to help us understand what we only partially glean from the combination of sounds, lipreading, and context clues.

Eye-bugging, like most body language (BL) signals can have more than one meaning, depending on the context and, at least in most cases, the person whose BL we are interpreting.

For example, the evidently honest character of Jimmy Carter would prevent us from reading his recurrent eye pops as signs of deception. In his case we would probably say he either has a stylistic tic in which he pops his eyes for emphasis or, and this is more likely, a physical tic of pathological origin. I know several people with such minor tics (throat clearing, eye popping, deep-snorting {a particularly gross tic, I might add, with its wet snot sound}), and for most of them, the reason is pretty clearly physiological rather than psychological/emotional. Some do increase their tic frequency under psychological or physical stress, but most do not.

Since Tourette Syndrome derives from brain lesions caused by untreated strep infections, I suspect that many people, especially older people who experienced strep infections from insect bites or strep throat, but who had to get over it on their own before antibiotic treatment was available to prevent longterm damage, ended up with such brain lesions. For most who survived a strep infection, the brain lesions would probably be few and not particularly significant, but they could still produce a minor tic, or perhaps even a small cluster of related minor tics.

I suspect that Jimmy Carter's eye-bugging is such a tic, but that since it already exists as part of his physical pattern, he naturally increases the movement when he is speaking emphatically. Watch him in a video of an interview sometime. You will see him emphasize points by stretching his eyes that way. Carter's frequent smiling in odd places as he speaks is, I believe, another such tic. Dan Ackroyd captured the Carter smile tic in his impersonations, but did not imitate the eye bulging tic.

Now, eye bulging can mean the speaker is trying to deceive the listener by forcefully NOT overblinking, but it is just as likely that the speaker is unconsciously using the expression as a form of emphasis. Try it yourself. Imagine you are standing in front of an audience. Begin talking about something you consider extremely important. At key points you should experience physiological tension in various parts of your body. Your eyebrows might rise and thus tighten your forehead into a contracted wrinkling, which is often a sign of insincerity, but in this case would just be emphatic expression of important points.

As you raise your brows and contract your forehead, notice how your eyes bulge out. See? It is part of the BL consequences of speaking forcefully for emphasis. Probably you pushed your face slightly forward and began to gesture with your arms and hands at the same time, as HRC did whenever her eyes bulged, and your voice volume increased, as hers did.

IOW, she was speaking emphatically, so her entire face and body tensed up as a natural consequence of doing so--as would anyone's. If you watch the other candidates at moments of emphasis, you will see them engage in facial expressions and BL that could also be interpreted as negative signs if the observer is not sympathetic to the speaker. I support Bernie, but if I did not, I could misread his typical emphatic mouth clench as evidence of anger and an ugly temper. His typical double-hand/palm downward gesture is, when used by some people under some circumstances, a sign of contempt, dominance, and control.

IOW, BL signals can have more than one meaning. Dogs and deaf/hearing impaired people have *a LOT* of practice reading the signals in various contexts, so we are less likely to take one gesture or expression out of context and assume it has only one possible meaning in every circumstance.

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