This Presidential primary, I will vote for a woman.

[MannyGoldstein]

I plan to vote on behalf of one of the 145 American women killed in Iraq, because she can no longer vote. Sent to die for no good reason.



Never again.

[JaneyVee]

1. Don't forget Afghanistan.

Or they don't count because Bernie sent them there?

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Was Afghanistan linked to the 9/11 attacks?

Was Iraq?

[Android3.14]

38. Oblivious

I see you can't respond to the fact that Afghanistan was linked to 911, but your sweetheart candidate voted to kill hundreds of thousands of people as an act of revenge in Iraq, knowing they had nothing to do with 911 or even having fucking weapons of mass destruction.

Clinton's IWR votes are indefensible and shameful.

Shame on anyone who finds her vote acceptable.

[JaneyVee]

131. Terrorists lived in Florida.

Came from Saudi Arabia.

[Chan790]

138. Planners and organizers lived in Afghanistan with the protection and blessing of the government. n/t

[forest444]

158. They did?

What? Did the Hindu Kush mountains remind Cheney of Wyoming or something?

[saidsimplesimon]

228. The bin Laden family allowed to fly home on 9/11, truth or myth?

[sammythecat]

165. +1 n/t

[Javaman]

216. hey, but she said it was a mistake...

now everything is alllllllll better.

yeah, this is sarcasm.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Did Saddam attack us?

Bernie wanted to go after bin Laden and so did I.

Did you want to go to war with Iraq?

[JaneyVee]

130. Did Afghanistan attack us?

Nope. Some guys who lived in Florida and came from Saudi Arabia did.

[beam me up scottie]

132. bin Laden did and we went into Afghanistan after him.

Your candidate voted to go to war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

Are you still trying to defend her vote?

[JaneyVee]

134. Are you familiar with HR Res 64?

[beam me up scottie]

135. Are you familiar with Hillary's claims about Saddam and Al Qaeda?

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well, effects American security.

This is a very difficult vote, this is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. Any vote that might lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction."

[tex-wyo-dem]

225. I'm sure that HRH had access to a lot more...

Information than I did, and I pretty easily came to the conclusion that these claims of WMD and "aid, comfort and sanctuary" to terrorists was bullshit.

[beam me up scottie]

136. Are you familiar with Bernie's opposition to the war? Too bad Hillary didn't listen to him:

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

148. Kind of ends the debate right there, Bernie was the only adult in the room.

[beam me up scottie]

149. Yep, but that won't stop her from making the same claim next time this is brought up.

It's like whack-a-mole with memes instead of moles.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

151. It does get tiring, but never dissuading.

This is the only thing left to fight for.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Indeed.

I'm only here to challenge the lies, I realize no one will change their mind based on what we post here but the truth is important.

[Fairgo]

199. And I appreciate your tenacity

Unfortunately, ignorance will not be shamed or dissuaded.

[senz]

201. I wish it were merely ignorant.

But it's not. They know what they're doing.

[Fairgo]

202. good point

[beam me up scottie]

204. Thanks.

I get sick of the lies, take a break and then come back stronger.

I will go back to mostly lurking tomorrow, there's no point in feeding trolls.

[geardaddy]

219. He wasn't the only one in the House who voted against it.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml#N

But I'm glad he did! Both my senators at the time voted Nay as well. (Wellstone and Dayton, who is now our awesome Gov.)

[merrily]

238. As between him and every other Democrat in Congress who has run for President, yes.

But he was not the only vote against the Iraq War.

The only adult in the room really was Barbara Lee. I don't know how she is on other issues, but on the Afghan War, the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, she was the only one in either house who voted against all three--and that includes Ted Kennedy and Bernie Sanders. On those issues, Lee was truly the only adult in the room, in the House and in the Senate.

[Scuba]

150. You're going to need to sit on a pillow after that ass kicking.

[merrily]

239. Did Iraq attack us? Did Hillary vote for the Iraq War, and the Afghan War and surge?

In my view, citing Bernie's Afghanistan War vote as a reason to oppose him while remaining silent about Hillary's votes for the Afghanistan War, Iraq War, and the Afghanistan surge is simply not honest political discussion. Nowhere near close.

[rhett o rick]

153. Sen Sanders voted to support a Democratic President while your HRC voted to support

a Republican President. Hundreds of thousands died in Iraq and the MIC has taken over this country because of the decision to invade Iraq.

There are two sides in this class war and I side with Sen Sanders, the 99%, and it appears you side with Goldman-Sachs and the billionaires.

[cosmicone]

3. Bernie appropriated funding for Iraq about 8 times

He never had the courage to oppose that funding. Amirite? AMIRITE?

[MannyGoldstein]

5. What would have happened if those bills had not passed?

Thanks in advance for your comprehensive response.

[cosmicone]

7. That is not the point .. a "principled" congressman would have voted against

a war that he did not approve. Plain and simple. Open and shut.

Next case....

[HerbChestnut]

12. He did and lobbied others to do the same.

But he wouldn't abandon our troops when they were already deployed.

[cosmicone]

15. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha n/t

[HerbChestnut]

18. Wow...

[bvf]

76. Really.

Actual dead bodies are a source of amusement now.

[BeanMusical]

98. Yeah, that's sick.

[think]

32. So Bernie should have voted to cut off funding for our troops in the middle of a war?

[secondwind]

39. so... laughing is a response? I guess you don't really have one.

[LiberalLovinLug]

242. Its a change from the authoritarian cons on this board's usual laughing off uncomfortable facts

Its usually this:

[Ed Suspicious]

53. Not funny. I remember local drives to raise private funds to our deployed soldiers body for armor.

If you can't separate the two ideas that's your failing, not Bernie's.

Not surprising to me that you would play politics with our young people's lives much like I imagine your candidate would do.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[BeanMusical]

99. +1

[beam me up scottie]

123. We're laughing about the war now?

Despicable.

[TheFarS1de]

212. And I thought this place could'nt get any lower ....

[yodermon]

218. your laughter at the troops on Veteran's Day week is duly FUCKING noted. n/t

[Duval]

108. And he didn't, did he? Vets love Bernie.

fromThe Boston Globe June 28, 2015


Bernie Sanders’ surge is partly fueled by veterans

[polly7]

17. You didn't answer his question.

What would have happened to all those troops you hopefully/presumably cared about if they hadn't received funding? More of "You go to war with the army you have", family buying bulletproof vests, etc.??

[cosmicone]

20. He could have said, "I'll not vote for a continued war but I'll vote for an orderly withdrawal." n/t

[polly7]

22. Riiiiight.

They were THERE, they NEEDED funding.

And I HATE war.



He did say he was against it before it happened.

[roguevalley]

35. we all know what Hillary did. voted for it, funded it.

yeah ... somehow the two are the same. Bernie voting to help our guys who were there after VOTING AGAINST THE DAMNED WAR ON THE SAME INTEL SHE HAD while Hillary Clinton VOTED FOR WAR AND EVERY APPROPRIATION AFTERWARD loves war and is too cowardly to vote against it. They ARE the same. AMIRITE!? AMIRITE!?!



The disonance is deep here, Padwan.

[840high]

75. You're not making any sense.

[SandersDem]

127. Just like Hillary?

Can't have it both ways.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. That's a disengenuous answer

Many more would havd died had funding suddenly ended, by your answer it seems that you know this.

[cosmicone]

25. naw .. not even close ... it would have been funded with other votes

and Bernie could have remained the shining beacon of anti-war movement

But he was too chicken to not vote for it because his "rural" state wanted it .... just another politician

Let me repeat "JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN"

[beam me up scottie]

51. He always supports the troops, abandoning them after we send them to war is unthinkable.

He also doesn't believe in sending them to die in unnecessary and illegal wars.

Do you?

[BeanMusical]

101. +1

[Ed Suspicious]

63. I want you to take this position to the American people. I would love to see how much success you

would have with it. You think we should send our kids to war then cut off their funding? That's fucking genius. Nice job thinking that one up. Shout it from the rooftops.

[JDPriestly]

189. So Hillary voted for the war and also voted to fund the war over and over.

Bernie voted against the war but voted to fund the war over and over.

Now, how does that make Hillary better than Bernie?

Seems to me no matter what Bernie might have done, he opposed the war when it counted, and supported the troops when the troops needed support.

I don't see how in the world those facts help Hillary at all.

The fact that the war had to be funded over and over just makes Hillary's initial vote to start the war (we were not attacked) all the worse.

[azurnoir]

33. he did vote against the war but lost

but his later votes were for our troops

your stance here sounds sort of like- the birth control failed so we'll starve the kid

[A Simple Game]

43. As a principled congressman Bernie voted to fund the troops.

To do any less would not be supporting the troops that the Republicans and a few politically motivated Democrats voted to send into combat.

Say, the fly and swatter are new to me, what do they represent?

[beam me up scottie]

48. Not only did he vote against it he implored others to do the same:

Too bad Hillary didn't listen.

[Duval]

102. Ah! Thanks! eom

[beam me up scottie]

105. You're welcome!

I drag that out whenever someone conveniently forgets about Bernie's opposition to the Iraq war.

[Duval]

112. So glad you did!

btw, I've enjoyed many of your posts for a long time!

[beam me up scottie]

113. Now it's my turn to thank you!

Sometimes I feel like giving up, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind but at least I can challenge the lies about Bernie.

I bookmark posts from others who do so on a regular basis, makes it easy to find them in a hurry.

[AgingAmerican]

57. So Hillary is either unprincipled

Or she approved of the Iraq war? Which is it?

[cosmicone]

116. This is about Bernie ... attempt to twist noted. n/t

[AgingAmerican]

119. Just holding you to your own standard

nt

[Live and Learn]

210. Or both? nt

[Bluenorthwest]

64. Obama says he would have voted against the war and yet he voted for funding. Do you think that

means he would have actually voted for the war or that he's unprincipled? Or do you use different rules for him than you do for Bernie?

[Jack Rabbit]

66. Is President Obama an unprincipled politician?

He, too, continued funding the war he opposed.

[Aerows]

89. A "principled" congressman

will vote for allocating funds when we are actively at war and our people are in the line of fire. He voted against sending them, but once they are there, he voted to support them.

I do hope you can cobble together an adequate reason to not give a shit about Americans that were/are over there without a choice, because I can't see one.

[merrily]

146. Trying to "prove" he is unprincipled that way is bs. Shame on you.

Once Congress votes to put people in harm's way, the only thing to do is fund. Otherwise the people that Congress voted to put in harm's way are in unnecessary danger. The only unprincipled vote about Iraq was the vote to authorize the AUMF. Shame on you for saying otherwise.

[cosmicone]

155. Not if HE didn't vote to put them in harm's way

and ...

If one is against war, one can stop the funding ... if one says it is not possible because people are already there, it is the work of JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN and not a purported messiah or divine figure.

JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN

[beam me up scottie]

159. So you're okay with not sending the troops the gear they need?

Wow, that's cold.

not a purported messiah or divine figure.

There you go with the strawmen again.

[merrily]

222. I already responded to these non-points. Repeating them doesn't make them more valid.

[Live and Learn]

207. Only a principled deficient post would make such a claim.

Surely you aren't claiming that we should abandon a country we just completely and illegally ruined, are you? Who could morally do that?

[HerbChestnut]

9. Right, defund our troops who are already in the field. Great Idea.

I mean, who needs ammunition when they're being attacked? And food? Please, I've heard that dirt has nutrients...

[cosmicone]

14. Or only agree to fund a complete retreat n/t

[HerbChestnut]

21. That was never on the table.

I swear, some Hillary folk with say *anything* to make Bernie look bad. My goodness...

[cosmicone]

26. He could have put it on the table

But .. but .. he wouldn't have looked macho asking for a retreat ...

JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN

[HerbChestnut]

30. Well, you can't argue with stupid.

[chknltl]

62. +1

Ghosting through this thread my thinking had arrived at a similar conclusion only slightly earlier. Thanks for voicing what i was thinking.

[Ed Suspicious]

65. You can't. I agree with this post.

[cosmicone]

120. Why? I thought Bernie was the "amendment king"

He could have easily offered an amendment -- the fact that he didn't means he was all for the war.

[beam me up scottie]

122. Good point, it's useless to even try.

[senz]

194. Someone alerted on this post earlier today but the jury voted to leave it

On Sun Nov 8, 2015, 06:08 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Well, you can't argue with stupid.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=782109

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

inappropriate personal attack

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Nov 8, 2015, 06:15 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: we should be nice to each other though
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A general statement, not personal in tone.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerted comment is poorly written. It is unclear whether its author meant Post #26 or Sen. Sanders or even someone else.

Post #26 is no prize, by the way.

Jurors are limited in how they can respond. If I could have dumped both comments, that's how I would have voted.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
-----------------------
I was juror #3. Now that I've had a chance to read the thread, I don't know why people wanted to respond to some of these baiting commenters. I'm glad you had a fair and friendly jury.

[beam me up scottie]

195. LOL! Juror #5!

Good jury!

Thanks for posting, senz.

[senz]

197. Yeah, I liked that one, too.

I was distracted at the time and didn't get around to posting the results until now (after reading the whole thread). I have a theory which I just posted at the end of the thread.

Do you remember when I said in another thread a couple of weeks ago that after watching someone I like being swarmed, I got angry and got a hide, and then felt something "harden" in me in response? Well, it relates to the subject of this comment and that's all I'm going to say.

Nice to see you, bmus. I'm amazed at your ability to keep talking to some of these folks (she said, euphemistically.)

[beam me up scottie]

198. You could be right, we know for a fact that they alert stalk us.

And I have my days, sometimes it's just not worth it. Like you I get angry when I see people being stalked and harassed but I don't let the bullies get to me anymore.

[ybbor]

211. I, like senz, also appreciate all the "heavy lifting" you do here

I love reading your rebuttals to the nonsense they espouse. Thanks from all the folks who are too shocked to reply to most of the garbage being thrown around lately.

Live long and prosper!

[beam me up scottie]

243. Why thank you!

Just when I'm ready to throw in the towel you guys make me want to keep fighting.

For you and all my fellow Bernistas ---

[HerbChestnut]

220. Thank you.

Context is everything. I've had some back and forths with that same poster, and they usually go nowhere. I just didn't feel like putting in the effort that time.

[Bonobo]

137. Cosmic Cone, I have a question for you.

Do you think that Hillary tried to look "macho" when she gave her passionate speech to the Senate in support of the IWR?

[cosmicone]

140. Hillary and Bernie are just POLITICIANS

They do whatever it is that will be the will of their constituency. That is what elected representatives do and are supposed to do.

A lot of votes that are safe for a Vermont senator are not safe in NY and vice versa.


Bernie is just another POLITICIAN .. I don't blame him for doing things that were safe for him to do. But I'll vehemently disagree that he is some messiah who is ultrapure.

Repeat the mantra "JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN" Period.

[Bonobo]

143. Let me get this straight.

You think that there is NO VARIATION among the "degree" to which politicans are "just politicians"...?

You believe there is some weird absolute consistency in that quality? The only thing in nature in which there is no range?

Man, or woman, that is a weird thought.

[cosmicone]

156. There is no variation and degree

When one is out to win or keep a job and takes actions for either, it is JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN.

Really courageous politicians take actions that would risk them their jobs. Bernie has not ever voted in a way that could definitely cost him his job.

Even the populist theme is trying to corner a niche market of ultra progressives IN ORDER TO GET VOTES.

J-U-S-T A-N-O-T-H-E-R P-O-L-I-T-I-C-I-A-N

[beam me up scottie]

160. "Bernie has not ever voted in a way that could definitely cost him his job."

His support of lgbt rights could have cost him his job so that's a lie.

[cosmicone]

166. No. In Vermont it was a safe vote.

When it was not safe, Bernie admitted to Rachel Maddow that he didn't fully support LGBT rights.

JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN.

[beam me up scottie]

169. No, it wasn't. I'm from Vermont, there was a backlash.

When did Hillary get around to supporting marriage equality again?

Another epic fail from you, but keep digging.

[cosmicone]

172. If I had failed, you wouldn't have been inexorably drawn

to refuting what I wrote.

The very fact that you cannot refute anything posted by me hereinabove, you are acting wounded.

I shall chalk this up as a manifest victory and move on. I despise having to make the same point over and over - either they get it or they don't.

Have a great evening!

[beam me up scottie]

175. Bzzzzzt! Another fail, you can't prove your claim so you're leaving.

I expected as much because this was an attempt to derail the thread since you can't defend Hillary's war vote.

[Bonobo]

163. LOL. The FIRST category in the world in which there is zero variation.

There's little point in arguing with an ideologue with such rigid (and illogical) thinking.

[merrily]

192. Bernie has voted and acted and spoken in ways that risk his election and re-election lots of times.

See my sig line for just one. Allowing Burlington's gay pride parade thirty or more years ago was risky, too. Marching in it with a grin on his face even riskier. Voting against the Iraq War so soon after 911 was risky as well. Every Senator who later ran for President voted for that war because they thought voting against it was too risky. Kerry--who has protested the Vietnam War, Biden, Clinton, Dodd. They miscalculated, but they thought they were taking the path of less risk.

Please don't post so many things that are not true.

[Live and Learn]

209. isn't macho a sexist term? nt

[AgingAmerican]

60. Is this really all you guys have?

Seriously. Is this the whole wad?

[Ed Suspicious]

67. There is also socialist, bugeyes, sexist, racist, and gun-nut.

[Aerows]

94. I've seen some people on DU

take "interesting" positions, but this one takes the cake.

Seriously?

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. He voted to equip them properly, NOT to send them there in the first place.

Not surprising you don't know that.

[Autumn]

41. Way to support our military men and women who died in the Iraq war.

The same Iraq war that Hillary trusted Bush enough to give him her vote to authorize him invading a country that did no harm to us. I salute you. I thought it was a republican lie that Democrats don't support the troops. Then there was you, the only person I have ever met or actually seen who thinks politicians should leave our troops in a foreign county without the government funding their needs.

[ish of the hammer]

78. Honduras, Libya, Syria, Ukraine

Clinton never found a war she didn't like

[restorefreedom]

96. defunding troops already committed is reprehensible

it has nothing to do with sending them there, but nice try at equating the two.

[Martin Eden]

110. Seriously?

You actually think there is an equivalence in giving GW Bush authority to invade Iraq in the first place, and providing our troops what they need when they're already in harm's way?

Seriously, you really need to take a step back and re-examine your thought process on this.

When you start embracing pretzel logic you need to think about why.

[Live and Learn]

208. Not Amirite, Omarosa. Am I right? nt

[tazkcmo]

214. Courage?

Courage to leave hundreds of thousand service members w/o support when they were ordered by our government to lay down their lives so our pols could look Presidential and tough?

That's one of the many reasons our leadership failed us. They didn't think it through and instead threw our lives into the meat grinder known as Operation Iraqi Freedom and now you want to fault a person for not leaving those troops vulnerable? That horse had already left the barn. It took more courage to continue that funding than it did to start that stupid, illegal and MIC sponsored war as your candidate did and admits to being wrong about.

[HerbChestnut]

4. I'll be voting for my grandmother

Who lived her life in the pursuit of justice for all.

Bernie 2016

[valerief]

6. Lots more women died in Iraq. Lots and lots more. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Hundreds of thousands, most likely.

It is almost unspeakable

[reformist2]

124. Hillary never speaks about all the innocent people killed in Iraq, that's for sure.

[Scootaloo]

23. They still are

[riderinthestorm]

29. And Libya and Yemen and Syria and Pakistan...

And more will continue to die with President Hillary Clinton

In one of the few challenging moments of the encounter—the anchor’s first-ever interview with the candidate—Maddow did argue that Clinton’s adversaries might occasionally have a point.

“I do think the Republicans on the committee were right yesterday when they highlighted as a policy matter that Libya is in a bad situation,” Maddow told the candidate, suggesting that the murder of dictator Muammar Khadaffi led to the sort of violent chaos that resulted in the deaths of four Americans, the same kind of unintended consequence that could result from the toppling of Bashar al-Assad in Syria.

That prompted a lengthy discourse from Clinton on the complications of Syria, where she supports instituting a coalition-run no-fly zone, and Libya, where she backs continued United States involvement.

“So I'm not prepared to give up on Libya,” Clinton declared, probably doing herself few favors with the Bernie Sanders crowd. “I think we have to do more to invest in Libya.”

more...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/23/hillary-answers-to-the-left-on-maddow.html

[polly7]

31. 'More to invest' - more to plunder, imo. Never mind the hell-hole it is now for millions. nt.

[zalinda]

106. Hillary, never mind Libya

how about investing in the US? Why the hell are we messing with other countries? Did the people of Libya invite us there?

Z

[berni_mccoy]

8. K&R

[pinebox]

10. Every day in America 22 Iraq & Afghan veterans die

from committing suicide. That's a very real and stark figure and one everybody should be concerned about.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/04/politics/22-veterans-kill-themselves-every-day/

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. These Ladies also. I'll be voting with them in mind.

Thanks for keeping it real Manny.

[boston bean]

46. Tammy Duckworth endorsed Hillary Clinton.

She, I am sure, knows that Bush/Cheney lied us into war.

The country was all gung ho for it. There was no stopping it, whether one voted for it or not. They would have gone in themselves using the first AUMF as justification, which btw, Bernie voted for.

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. I'll stick with my post.

[Hepburn]

58. Some saw through the lies...

...just saying...

[artislife]

90. Nod in agreement. nt

[dreamnightwind]

203. Like your sig line!

[Catherina]

24. I will vote, on feminist grounds,

I will vote, on feminist grounds, for all the poor Black, Iraqi, Latina, Palestinian, Pakistani, Native, Afghan, Yemeni, and poor women of the world. I will vote for Bernie Sanders. Period.

[Buzz cook]

27. Which one?

Remember not all of those women, if they had lived, would have supported Bernie. Some of them would have supported Hillary and some of them a republican.

If the one you choose was a conservative anti-abortion zealot, would you vote republican to honor her memory? Or are you just using a dead woman as a cheap talking point?

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Any of 'em

None deserved to die, particularly for nothing.

[Jack Rabbit]

56. !!

[artislife]

91. You will vote for them because they cannot vote.

Unlike some, Manny isn't asking for party loyalty as a criteria.

[Buzz cook]

205. So you don't

Care what those women would have wanted as individuals or as a group. How again are you voting for them?

Because its looking more and more like a cheap talking point.

[OnyxCollie]

213. To quote "Full Metal Jacket",

"The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive."

[stonecutter357]

45. +1

[A Simple Game]

52. I bet there is a good chance their families don't support Hillary.

And I would also bet most of them support a candidate that was against the war when there wasn't a good political reason to do so.

[Autumn]

61. Does not the life of a conservative anti-abortion zealot who died in a war of choice

supposedly defending our country not matter? She's still one of the 145 military women who died in Iraq. Republican or Democrat what difference? Dead is dead. A life ended for no reason other than donning a military uniform and trusting the CIC. It only makes sense to vote for the man who was voted against sending her there to honor her, instead of the one who voted yes to send her there because she trusted the republicans not to go to war when they had made it clear there would be war, one way or the other. Using a dead woman as a cheap talking point indeed.

[Buzz cook]

206. Yes it matters

But that's not the point is it? The OP says he will vote "for" the women I suppose to honor them some how. My question is how will they be honored if he votes for someone they wouldn't vote for. Secondly if he is intent on honoring their wishes, which he manifestly is not, then he would have to vote republican to honor the wishes of those who would have voted that way.

What you say makes sense, but that is not what the OP said. In other words he's trying to make cheap debating point over the dead bodies of American service women.

[sarge43]

36. Thank you for the reminder.

I'll vote for another.

[jalan48]

37. Wall Street likes wars. They are big time money makers.

What? We're not supposed to see the link between war and business profits? Hillary thinks so.

“It's time for the United States to start thinking of Iraq as a business opportunity," she said in a 2011 speech.


http://www.ibtimes.com/campaign-2016-hillary-clinton-pitched-iraq-business-opportunity-us-corporations-2121999

[MisterP]

84. for several select and well-connected businesses--of course once the bills come due

the economy gets vapor lock and they find themselves without customers

[DhhD]

115. She recently delivered the Mexican nationalized oil industry to the 1% and foreign energy

contractors. Mexico then became ready for TPP.

[PowerToThePeople]

40. All victims of our recent international war crime.

[SoapBox]

42. No more War Hawks.

Never...Ever...Again.

[stonecutter357]

44. Dead americans for flam bate wow it's so

Rovian.

[artislife]

92. Bait. If you are gonna sling, sling well. nt

[BeanMusical]

104. Flam?

Flim·flam.

[MrMickeysMom]

47. K&R for a great OP!

I can't believe some of the hateful persons herein actually making an argument for ignoring the troops who were committed. Some fucking crazy logic THAT is!

[Jack Rabbit]

49. And I, too, shall vote for a woman, and for many women

The one who mourned her dead husband or lover, sent to fight in Iraq for no good reason.

The one who lost her job and then her home, due to corporate greed.

The one who graduated college with a mountain of debt and no job prospects, again for corporate greed.

The one who turned to prostitution to make ends meet, again for corporate greed.

But not to one who laid off tens of thousands from Hewlett Packard, or the one in whom Wall Street has invested hundreds of thousands and keeps right on investing because they keep getting a return.*

[font size="1"]
*At least not in the primary. Although it may be unimaginable, this lady may still be the best candidate in the general, and that would be different story.
[/font]

[NuclearDem]

50. Your sudden concern for my fallen brothers and sisters is touching.

Perhaps you'd be interested in pressuring Senator Sanders to more fully adopt Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America's policy agenda to help take care of those of us who are still breathing:

http://media.iava.org/policy-agenda-2015.pdf

[demwing]

59. You know, just because you've never heard a thing before today

doesn't mean that it has "suddenly appeared."

Maybe you just weren't listening...

[NuclearDem]

70. Topics about veterans issues here sink like a damn stone.

Unless we're being used as bludgeons against one candidate or another.

[MannyGoldstein]

69. Your ignorance of my previous concern is unfortunate.

And I believe that Sanders is generally recognized as someone who fights for the rights of veterans.

[NuclearDem]

77. Not nearly enough.

The only candidate this cycle that's come even close to sufficiently understanding and addressing out issues has been Governor O'Malley.

There's a whole breadth of veterans issues Sanders has not addressed, including why he waited so long to act on the VA health system scandal when he was chair of SVAC.

[Aerows]

97. Here's the thing

I like O'Malley quite a lot. He's terrific. The momentum is with Bernie and I think as many Clinton supporters demand the loyalty oath to prevent the vote from being split, I'm going to vote for Bernie.

He can win this thing. O'Malley got in a bit too late, imho.

I'm not going to split my vote. I'm Bernie all the way, at this juncture.

It's all anti-Bernie, all the time around here, and it's transparent - he is the candidate that Hillary supporters fear - and they should.

[NuclearDem]

144. I'm sorry, you must be replying to the wrong post.

My post had nothing at all to do with loyalty oaths or splitting any vote.

90% of DU is pro-Sanders. This persecution complex nonsense is getting really tiresome.

[Aerows]

145. You have a lovely night. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

72. Sanders has answered veterans calls for action with real actions

What he's done and what he proposes dovetails perfectly with veterans

https://berniesanders.com/issues/caring-for-our-veterans' own policy requests

KEY ACTIONS:
Authored the historic Veterans’ Access, Choice and Accountability Act to
improve care and increase accountability at the VA.
Co-sponsored the Post-9/11 GI Bill to allow a new generation of veterans, servicemembers and dependents to seek a college degree.
Co-sponsored the Women Veterans Access to Quality Care Act, to ensureVA facilities meet the needs of women veterans, and require every VA medical center to have obstetricians or gynecologists on staff.
Introduced legislation to restore all cuts to military pensions.

AS PRESIDENT, SEN. SANDERS WILL:
Fully fund and expand the VA so that every veteran gets the care that he or she has earned and deserves.
Substantially improve the processing of Veterans’ claims for compensation.
Expand the VA’s Caregivers Program.
Expand mental health service for Veterans.
Make comprehensive dental care available to all veterans at the VA.

[NuclearDem]

81. I've seen the section on Sanders' website.

The head of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, for the same reasons as I, is not impressed.

[Autumn]

74. Has Bernie ignored their plight? I notice several references in the end notes to the

United States Cong. Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee.

[senz]

193. Bernie Sanders is a HERO to veterans.

Bernie Sanders Delivers Big For Vets As Senate Passes Veterans’ Healthcare Bill

Wednesday, June 11th, 2014 The Senate has passed the Sanders-McCain Veterans Bill that will allow vets to go to private providers if they can’t get an appointment at a VA facility, and fund the building of 26 with only three Republicans voting no.

The Republican brigade of senators who claim that the bill is too expensive was led by Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) who claimed that bill creates a new unlimited “entitlement for veterans.” He said that three years worth of spending on vets is too much, and he demanded that the Senate offset the cost with spending cuts. Sessions said that he can’t suggest to his colleagues that the budget violation in the bill be waived.

VFW Recognizes Sen. Bernie Sanders With Award

On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 Sen. Bernie Sanders was recognized by the Veterans of Foreign Wars for his dedication to veterans’ issues and presented with the VFW’s prestigious Congressional Award. During the ceremony, VFW National Commander John Stroud acknowledged Sanders’ role in securing the passage of legislation design to improve health care for service people through the Department of Veterans Affairs. Stroud said, “It is no understatement to say that Sen. Sanders has taken care of the wounded, ill and injured veterans and their surviving family members.”

So don't you be lying about Bernie.

[NuclearDem]

226. Who's lying?

It's not lying to point out Sanders has very little to offer as far as a policy proposal for veterans--and yes, I've read the section on his website.

Sorry, this isn't enough.

[senz]

234. Since you know his work for vets & have read his extensive proposals

then you have two options: give him feedback detailing your concerns -- or go with some other candidate who doesn't give a shit about veterans.

Good luck making your choice.

[NuclearDem]

236. I'm actually backing Governor O'Malley.

A candidate who's worked with IAVA and other veterans groups to craft a policy platform more comprehensive than Sanders, Clinton, and all the Republican candidates combined, and addressed veterans health, homelessness, education, and family issues during his time as governor.

Or, as you put it, "some other candidate who doesn't give a shit about veterans."

[senz]

237. I like O'Malley.

When I said "doesn't give a shit," I assumed you would go with Hillary. A couple of years ago, looking for a Democratic alternative to Hillary, O'Malley stood out for me. If Bernie (whom I had listened to on Thom Hartmann for years) hadn't entered the contest backing all the most salient issues for me, I would have been in the O'Malley camp.

And I still like him. What I don't like, seriously do not like, is the fact the O'Malley supporters have targeted Bernie and not Hillary. The only conclusion I can draw from that is that O'Malley wants a chance as Hillary's V.P. and hopes to impress her with a bit of henchman activity -- which she, being who she is, would of course appreciate.

That's a real downside for me.

[Hepburn]

54. A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[treestar]

68. I would venture to say a lot of those women were perfectly fine with the vote

and in fact abused anyone who'd vote against it as unpatriotic.

Do you know anyone in the military? There are often war mongering right wingers. They are loyal only to Republican Presidents and call Obama weak for getting us out of the two wars and for not starting others.





https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=918046730540&set=a.524650150440.2040697.70901558&type=3&theater

[MannyGoldstein]

71. They did not deserve to die

Nor to be told lies that fueled any misconceptions they had.

[treestar]

73. Nobody in the military "deserves" to die, but they take the risk

and often want to:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=918046730540&set=a.524650150440.2040697.70901558&type=3&theater

[whatchamacallit]

80. No one signs up to be endangered in unnecessary wars of opportunity. n/t

[treestar]

82. Yeah they do

They don't see it as you or we do.

Don't remember being called cowards, etc., unpatriotic for not supporting the Iraq War?

[Autumn]

86. Only by the politician and the pundits. I was never called unpatriotic for not supporting the Iraq

war by a military man or woman,

[HDSam]

121. I'm a fairly recently retired Veteran...

with multiple deployments, please enlighten me and tell me how I see it.

[riderinthestorm]

185. Welcome to DU!

[HDSam]

224. Thank you

I appreciate the welcome!

[True Blue American]

221. We do not have to tell you:)

You have been there. We owe you the best of everything and Thank You!

[HDSam]

227. Thank you for the support

it's important to me and other Veterans and transcends political beliefs. Hopefully by keeping Veteran's issues in the public eye we'll be more reluctant to use force unnecessarily in the future (although there is every indication we don't learn from our past).

[NuclearDem]

83. Over the line.

Please don't use my fallen brothers and sisters as a weapon like this.

[AgingAmerican]

87. When you latch onto bullshit

integrity goes right out the window.

[Autumn]

85. Thank you Manny. I will vote for Bernie for my beloved Nephew

who came home after his third tour in Iraq and Afghanistan, put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. I agree. Never again.

[artislife]

95. So sorry

There are so many more casualties of war that are not included in the numbers. Some many lives broken.

[Aerows]

88. I am with you there, Manny.

Never again.

[leftofcool]

93. More flamebait

[cantbeserious]

100. This One Will Vote For Bernie For All The Fallen Troops

eom

[Enthusiast]

103. Kicked and recommended!

[vlakitti]

107. Great post and comment

Thank you, Manny

[Indepatriot]

109. What's a few dozen, or perhaps 100,000 deaths between friends in the name of Political Expediency?

How could anyone have known it was such a bad idea....it's not like there were millions protesting in the streets against starting a war....oh, wait,....never mind....

[AzDar]

111. Yep. One Senator declared she was casting her Pro-War vote ' with conviction'...

[cosmicone]

117. This post changed exactly ZERO minds on DU. n/t

[JoePhilly]

126. But it did use some dead soldiers as props.

So it has that going for it.

[JaneyVee]

133. BENGHAZzzzzzzzz....

[sabrina 1]

118. That's exactly how I feel about those who say they support women actually meaning it.

I am working to end the abuses of women by our Foreign Policies all over the world. For some reason anytime I've mentioned this, certain people get very upset.

But you cannot support War for Profit AND claim to support women and minorities, it's simply not possible.

[MisterP]

128. Iraq wasn't pro-woman; Honduras wasn't pro-woman; Libya wasn't pro-woman

[McCamy Taylor]

125. I'm voting for the 1000 plus women who die every year at home from intimate partner violence.

Nothing sends a message of empowerment to women like having one of their own as POTUS. Will all women suddenly become liberated? Not likely. But if even a handful find the strength to walk out on an abusive relationship, because they realize that they were not born on this earth to serve a man, it will be a start.

[beam me up scottie]

129. I'm voting for the candidate who has been trying to lift women out of poverty for decades.

Many women are unable to leave their abusive spouses because they can't afford to.

Admiring a rich powerful woman isn't going to help them.

[cosmicone]

141. You mean Vermont no longer has poor women

or was Bernie unsuccessful for decades?

[beam me up scottie]

142. I'll take logical fallacies for $500, Alex!

At least Bernie has always been 100%% pro-choice.

[cosmicone]

154. Logical fallacy of going from poor women to pro-choice?

The changing of goal-posts is repetitious. Try a new strategy ... perhaps a straw-man or missing context or some non sequitur.

In any event I don't fall for such tactics.

[beam me up scottie]

157. Nope your strawman argument and loaded question.

And since we are discussing reasons why women should vote for one or the other, their records on abortion rights are another reason why I prefer Bernie to Hillary.

I know who has always had my back, Hillary's gender doesn't win her any extra points from me.

[cosmicone]

161. Your original claim was Bernie has fought for poor women for decades.

You need to answer if Vermont still has poor women or not? If not, Bernie was successful. If there still are poor women, whatever he was doing was ineffective.

Since you don't want to claim that Vermont no longer has poor women and didn't want to ADMIT that Bernie's fighting was for naught, you changed the topic to pro-choice and it would be transparent to anyone who reads the thread.

End of discussion ... your change of subject implied defeat on the origina predicate.

[beam me up scottie]

162. Now there's some twisted logic.

If he fights for poor women and they're still poor that means he's ineffective.

So it's Bernie's fault, not the rest of the lawmakers who don't give a shit.

I can see why you're retreating.

[cosmicone]

164. Effective legislators have RESULTS

Ineffective and inefficient legislators have excuses.

Bernie has ZERO luck in coalition building to get his agenda through. No wonder he lacks congressional endorsements except from two other ineffective and unsuccessful dreamers.

[beam me up scottie]

167. How does that negate the fact that he fought for us for decades?

I want someone who fights for my rights, not someone who makes speeches.

Your pathetic attempt to move the goal posts failed.

This is my original post and you still haven't refuted it:

beam me up scottie (39,176 posts)
129. I'm voting for the candidate who has been trying to lift women out of poverty for decades.

Many women are unable to leave their abusive spouses because they can't afford to.

Admiring a rich powerful woman isn't going to help them.

[cosmicone]

170. What is the point of electing an ineffective leader?

Hundreds of people have tried and failed ... none of them are qualified to be POTUS.

Results are what distinguishes leaders from people who receive nice parting gifts.

[beam me up scottie]

173. What's the point of electing one who already proved she can't be trusted to fight?

Hillary is no leader, except when it comes to war.

[cosmicone]

177. We are talking about Bernie now

I never claimed anything about Hillary. However, it is typical .. when Bernie is proven to be a failure, some bring up the intangible and ethereal "trustworthiness".... The asinine part about it is that "trustworthiness" cannot be proven with documentary evidence. It is just a smear and you know it.

On the other hand, legislative effectiveness can be MEASURED and DOCUMENTED.

[beam me up scottie]

180. I judge her based on her complete record and she is not trustworthy.

Her vote for the Iraq war is all the proof I need, actually.

And her claims about Saddam and Al Qaeda:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well, effects American security.

This is a very difficult vote, this is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. Any vote that might lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction.

Why would I trust someone who would lie?


Bernie on the other hand, knew it was a mistake and said so:

[sabrina 1]

246. Speaking of poor women, minorities and single mothers in particular, how do you feel about

the Welfare Reform Bill Hillary played such a huge role in getting passed? And has she changed her mind, now that we have seen the results, on that also? We haven't heard what she feels about it since the last campaign, when she stated how proud she was of that legislation?

[cosmicone]

249. She did not hold any elective office then.

I know Sanders is losing miserably and becoming cranky enough to start yelling but are you now reduced to attcking her for what Bill Clinton did?

That was really really desperate ..........

[tblue]

139. Wow

That hit my gut. I agree.

[merrily]

147. The sophistry and speciousness of the replies on this thread are shameful and disgraceful.

They were so sickening, I could not even read all of them.

[cosmicone]

168. But of course you don't see a problem

with the sophistry and speciousness of the OP and the heinous way in which dead service women's coffins are used for a political purpose?

And I thought ethics was what attracted people to Bernie ...

[beam me up scottie]

171. You say this after laughing about them upthread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=782076

[cosmicone]

174. Let's not be disingenuous

I was not laughing at the OP or the portrayal of the coffins of our brave servicewomen.

I was laughing at one of the poster's laughable posts.

[beam me up scottie]

176. Sure you were.

You've been all over this thread trying to deflect and derail because you can't defend your candidate's war vote.

[cosmicone]

178. Just the facts ma'am. Just the facts.

Just because you don't like the facts doesn't necessitate distortion of reality.

[beam me up scottie]

181. Fact: Hillary voted for the Iraq war.

That alone is reason enough not to support her.

[merrily]

191. You laughed at Herb Chestnut's true post.

[merrily]

182. This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about on the other thread.

Truth is irrelevant. Any type of bs attack on Sanders or his supporters is considered not only worth posting but necessary to post.

[beam me up scottie]

183. They're trying to deflect and derail, but they failed.

As long as we stick to the facts they won't succeed.

[merrily]

184. Succeed at what?

[beam me up scottie]

186. Spinning Bernie's record.

If you read the entire thread you'll see they tried to claim Bernie is pro-war because he supported the troops.

All an attempt to deflect from her vote, which was the topic of the op.

[merrily]

187. Yes, but again, the truth is irrelevant, as is analysis and logic.

We've tilled this same patch of topsoil over and over and over. The supporters of Hillary keep throwing out the same stuff: His Afghanistan vote (which btw I did not agree with) and his funding votes. And we supporters of Sanders keep giving them the same replies we've given for months.

It's like Sisyphus, only his rock wasn't nasty and bs-ridden, only heavy.

I do appreciate what you are trying to do, but I am not going to get there. Not tonight anyway. Maybe never.

[beam me up scottie]

188. But it does show just how far they'll go to smear Bernie.

I want to be able to live with myself after the primaries. I refuse to lie about Hillary, cite right wing sources or encourage others to do so by participating in and/or rec'ing their threads.

By not stooping to their level we've already won a victory.

[merrily]

190. How far they'll go has been evident for months. If we didn't post at all, we would not be stooping

Last edited Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:58 AM - Edit history (1)

to their level, either. And think of the time we could have been devoting to something else. Something that has a point. Something that is not Sisyphus + bs+nasty.

[senz]

232. I'm split between the two approaches.

I admire our friends who have the stomach to push back against bullies and liars, and I love watching the latter fold. Some staunch souls are very good at dealing with them, but I'm not one of them. I get disgusted, tired, and feel somewhat dirty interacting with those whom I find loathsome -- and this goes triple for anyone who stoops to using the ugly little fly swatter image in their sig line.

However, if we put the unsavory types on ignore, then they'll fill up the threads with blatant lies, and less informed lurkers could get a head full of misinformation, much like Fox News viewers. Unfortunately, unchallenged lies eventually become accepted truths.

On the other hand, if no one responds to them, they might, like trolls, lose interest and go away.

It's a conundrum. Just think, 20 years ago, most of us didn't have this problem. Amazing how complicated our lives have become through the miracle of technology!

The key seems to be: find a balance. A good, factual comeback, repeated often and almost automatically, might be the best labor-saving approach. Just blurt it out and don't interact. Then get on to better things.

[merrily]

235. You are starting several steps ahead of me.

My first question is whether posting is a good use of my time. If I discuss this, I cannot help but say how I feel right now. However, I don't want to keep being discouraging, and I am in a mode right now of feeling discouraged about posting, so I am reluctant to keep discussing this.

[senz]

244. Sorry, I missed this.

I didn't intend to discourage you, merrily, and am sorry if that's what I did. I was just exploring the issue.

The most important thing is to keep your spirits up. You don't owe a thing to anyone out here. Take care of merrily; she matters!

[merrily]

245. No, no, no, my dear senz. I meant I don't want to discourage you or anyone else.

You never discourage me. Just the opposite. You always encourage me and I am grateful to you for it.

[senz]

247. lol, okay.

Isn't communication a beeyotch? It can be tricky in RL, but out here, it's really touch and go.

[merrily]

248. Sorry. I was probably not very focused when I typed the other reply.

[senz]

200. Three things you need to know about his Afghanistan vote

1) the vote was taken on Sept. 14, 2001, three days after 9/11, 2) it authorized the president to take whatever actions were necessary to protect the U.S. from further terrorist attacks, and 3) only one member of Congress voted against it: Barbara Lee (who is correct on pretty much everything).

It's easy to see that the war authorization has been misused since then, but the vote itself was understandable under the circumstances. Bernie's not a hawk by any stretch, but he is very protective of the American people. Which, in a president, is not a bad thing.

Now the war in Iraq, you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to know how bogus that was. If I knew it (and I did), Hillary Clinton had no excuse not to know it. And the pursuit of oil was one of the underlying reasons Bush went to war there -- the other big reason being the establishment of American hegemony in the M.E., as PNAC had urged. It had nothing to do with protecting the American people.

[merrily]

217. Thank you, senz. Full text:

Preamble

Joint Resolution

To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.

Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and

Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

Section 1 – Short Title

This joint resolution may be cited as the 'Authorization for Use of Military Force'.

Section 2 – Authorization For Use of United States Armed Forces

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

I know Bernie is not a hawk. I disagree with this vote.

[merrily]

179. Your reply to my post 147 is a good example of what my post 147 says. Not the worst example on the

thread, but an example.

[senz]

196. At least one of the comments on this thread was alerted.

I just posted the jury results upthread (1 - 6 to LEAVE it). Here is the comment that was alerted on:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=782109

I just finished reading the thread and what I noticed was that there were only a few people from the Hillary side commenting. The jury rules are that you can't be a juror on a thread in which you have commented. I'm wondering if one of the strategies is to have a few commenters bait like crazy and then a slew of people refrain from posting in order to increase their odds of getting on a jury for anyone who took the bait and got angry/fed up. Obviously if that was the strategy it didn't work this time. Normally I comment on a Manny OP but am glad I hadn't.

[merrily]

223. Great observation senz!

There was a time when jury votes were unanimous or 6-1 or 1-6. Then, they suddenly started going 4-3 or 3 to 4. Very implausible, given the break down of this board.

[marble falls]

215. Best post ever, Manny. I'm a vet and I'm with you.

[saidsimplesimon]

229. Manny, thank you

I'm puzzled by some of the comments "hahaha..". You said Iraq, some respond with Afghanistan gotcha.

Presidents, and the American public, must make difficult choices when the only alternatives offered are flight or fight.

[katmille]

230. Sorry Manny

You only get one vote! Same with other posts. One person, one vote. So if you want to support the vets, write your congressman or woman and your senators. Or call them. Volunteer or donate to the different charities that support vets.
Bashing the other cancidates on DU does nothing for those 145 women.
Oh, wait. I guess it makes you feel better. So now it is about you.

[Catherina]

231. Gawd I love you. With every thread of yours another dozen go on my ignore list

Thank you! Sincerely

[d_legendary1]

240. Man, I wish I could rec this 500 times!

Best post I've seen in a while. Thanks Manny, for reminding us what's at stake.

[WillyT]

241. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!