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Can we get back to the issues? Really, things are getting (Original Post) hedgehog Nov 2015 OP
yep reddread Nov 2015 #1
That's the stuff I want to see - this tit for tat about who said what hedgehog Nov 2015 #2
I wish Clinton supporters would tell us what she stands for DJ13 Nov 2015 #3
So it's one sided? Dem2 Nov 2015 #4
There are far more threads outlining details from Bernie's plank than Hillary's all over DU DJ13 Nov 2015 #7
My point was Dem2 Nov 2015 #9
Look how you did not post what Hillary stands for. merrily Nov 2015 #26
Unrelated to my argument Dem2 Nov 2015 #27
No, it's very related and patently true. merrily Nov 2015 #29
Can't get to issues until people realize that they are part of the problem Dem2 Nov 2015 #30
And the way you combat that is to be part of the problem? merrily Nov 2015 #31
I have attacked either candidate? Dem2 Nov 2015 #36
You can always check her website. JaneyVee Nov 2015 #5
Which her supporters do not believe she will ultimately support JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #10
What are her real goals? DJ13 Nov 2015 #12
Why bother? Blue_Adept Nov 2015 #32
I agree. As a fellow mechanical engineer, here's a plan (from O'Malley of course) FSogol Nov 2015 #6
Any one of these items is a step forward - seeing them as a hedgehog Nov 2015 #8
Please study O'Malleys positions. He's all that riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #19
No. Issues don't play as well for one group of posters. jeff47 Nov 2015 #11
I was attacked here two days ago by Hillary LibDemAlways Nov 2015 #28
I'd like to see more policy stuff Hydra Nov 2015 #13
"I'd like to see...how we're going to get out of the economic, environmental and..." DJ13 Nov 2015 #15
I know, their answer is "What Problems? Everything is going according to plan!" Hydra Nov 2015 #16
.... and your point is reaffirmed. postatomic Nov 2015 #14
Did you see this thread? RobertEarl Nov 2015 #18
About a bazillion times postatomic Nov 2015 #24
Bazillion? RobertEarl Nov 2015 #33
And more Snark postatomic Nov 2015 #34
One of my goals here RobertEarl Nov 2015 #35
There's nothing to debate postatomic Nov 2015 #37
She delivered RobertEarl Nov 2015 #38
Well that is certainly new - advocating that the issues don't matter Aerows Nov 2015 #23
My words: "issues alone do not make a good Candidate" postatomic Nov 2015 #25
Issues!? What the hell do you think this is -- a *discussion* board!? villager Nov 2015 #17
Apparently, we can't Aerows Nov 2015 #20
HAPPY to, hedgehog. elleng Nov 2015 #21
+1 zappaman Nov 2015 #22
Agree, the candidates' respective records and their proposals should be the focus. Vattel Nov 2015 #39

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
2. That's the stuff I want to see - this tit for tat about who said what
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:18 PM
Nov 2015

32 years ago is getting boring.

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
3. I wish Clinton supporters would tell us what she stands for
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:31 PM
Nov 2015

But I get the feeling either they dont know what that is, or know it wouldnt be popular, so it will be more "Bernie said this 5-10-20 years ago" taken out of context.

Dem2

(8,166 posts)
4. So it's one sided?
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:35 PM
Nov 2015

The dozen or so threads today attacking Hillary are not promoting the tit-for-tat?

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
7. There are far more threads outlining details from Bernie's plank than Hillary's all over DU
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:42 PM
Nov 2015

What today represents is a response to an ever increasing barrage of negativity by the Hillary supporters over the last two weeks about both Bernie and his supporters.

It can (and will) get worse as this continues.

Dem2

(8,166 posts)
30. Can't get to issues until people realize that they are part of the problem
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:02 PM
Nov 2015

...of reacting angrily to an attack and then posting an attack O/P in response.

Without acknowledging this occurs on both sides, the cycle continues ad infinitum.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
31. And the way you combat that is to be part of the problem?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:07 PM
Nov 2015

Waiting for both sides to change before you change is a good way to ensure nothing changes. I've made my point. Seems you want to be "right" about being part of the problem. I'm moving on.

Dem2

(8,166 posts)
36. I have attacked either candidate?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:44 PM
Nov 2015

Please show me this. I feel twisted logic is being used here, I may have to move on...

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
5. You can always check her website.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:38 PM
Nov 2015

She's released more policy proposals than any other candidate.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
10. Which her supporters do not believe she will ultimately support
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:56 PM
Nov 2015
“I’d lie if I said I wasn’t disappointed with the statement that she made on TPP,” says Representative Kind. “Everyone knew where she was on that and where she will be, but given the necessities of the moment and a tough Democratic primary, she felt she needed to go there initially.”

From agreed. “Hillary will bend a little bit, but not so much that she can’t get herself back on course in the general [election] and when she is governing,” he said.


What are her real goals?

Blue_Adept

(6,393 posts)
32. Why bother?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:22 PM
Nov 2015

Half of the first several responses are just calling her a warmonger, reciting the IWR vote or something else that's the Sole Issue for that particular poster.

Neither "side" is interested in discussing the issues. That's been plain for months - which is why a number of folks pressed for GDP to be created earlier than usual because it was crushing dialogue in GD for quite awhile.

Sides were staked out early. Discussion of issues isn't the thing here.

FSogol

(45,453 posts)
6. I agree. As a fellow mechanical engineer, here's a plan (from O'Malley of course)
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:38 PM
Nov 2015

that I like a lot:

Clean Energy Future

A JOBS AGENDA FOR OUR RENEWABLE ENERGY FUTURE


As a nation, we have made great strides toward becoming energy independent. Now is the time to accelerate that progress. The future of our country and our planet depend on it.

Today, we are in the midst of an extraordinary transition from one energy regime to a new one.

New technologies have put a clean energy, energy independent future within reach – while the threat of climate change, and the urgent need for new middle-class jobs, makes it imperative that we aggressively pursue it. The fact is, there is no either/or choice between our prosperity and our environment – that we can create a future where there are more good-paying jobs, or a future with a healthy environment, but not both.

The reality is the two goals are indivisible. And it is time to make clean energy and climate change a top national priority. That’s because:

We have a moral obligation to act immediately and aggressively to stop climate change.
Clean energy represents the biggest business and job creation opportunity we’ve seen in a hundred years.
Ending fossil fuel use is a public health imperative, and would extend the lives of 200,000 Americans each year.
Reliance on local, renewable energy sources means a safer, more stable world.

We can’t meet the climate challenge with an all-of-the-above energy strategy, or from drilling off our coasts, or from building pipelines that bring oil from tar sands in Canada.

Meeting the climate challenge requires a commitment to one simple concept: a full transition to clean, renewable energy and an end our reliance on fossil fuels altogether.

I believe, within 35 years, our country can and should be 100% powered by clean energy, supported by millions of new jobs. But we have to accelerate the transition right now.

As President, on Day One, I would use my executive authority to declare the transition to a clean energy future the Number One priority of our federal government. I would:


Create a new Clean Energy Jobs Corps to partner with communities to retrofit buildings to be more energy efficient, improve local resiliency, create new green spaces, and restore and expand our forests so they can absorb more greenhouse gases.

Retrofit federal buildings to the highest efficiency standards and require new federal buildings to be net-zero. The federal government owns and manages nearly 900,000 buildings, more than any other entity.

Require the federal fleet to be subject to low- or zero-emissions purchasing agreements. Our federal fleet of 250,000 vehicles consumes more than $450 million gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel every year. Fuel costs saved should be reinvested in clean energy deployment and jobs.

Require all federally funded infrastructure projects to meet climate resiliency standards.

Direct the Environmental Protection Agency to take aggressive action to limit greenhouse gases, expanding rules to other large sources of emissions beyond power plants.

Direct the Environmental Protection Agency to adopt a zero-tolerance policy for methane leaks from current oil and gas production. Leaks waste $1.8 billion annually, while exacerbating greenhouse gas pollution.

Direct the EPA and Departments of Defense and Transportation to set strong efficiency standards, including setting strict “MPG” standards for new buildings and requiring energy costs to be transparent to tenants and purchasers. Building retrofits out-perform investments in new gas and oil exploration as a form of job creation or economic stimulus by 3 to 1.

Reject projects like Keystone XL that exacerbate climate change and extend our reliance on fossil fuels.

Deny new permits for drilling in Alaska, Antarctica, and off our coasts.

Increase royalties and emissions fees for fossil fuel companies currently drilling on federal lands and invest the proceeds in jobs and skills training.

Keep domestically produced oil and gas in the U.S., instead of selling it abroad – unless there is a clear strategic security rationale.

More broadly, I would make clean energy deployment – and employment – a first order priority. I would:

Set a national, cross-sector Renewable Electricity Standard so our nation is powered by 100% clean energy by 2050.

Fight for federal legislation for a cap on carbon emissions from all sources, with proceeds from permits returned to lower- and middle-class families and invested in job transition assistance and the Clean Energy Corps.

Set a national goal of doubling our energy productivity within 15 years. Low energy productivity costs American businesses and households $130 billion a year.

Support a Clean Energy Financing Authority to support clean energy infrastructure, projects to increase efficiency, and resiliency upgrades in communities nationwide.

End all subsidies for fossil fuels, while extending production and investment tax credits for renewable energy for the long term. Taxpayer subsidies for fossil fuel companies total $4 billion a year, even as the biggest oil companies reap $90 billion in annual profits.

Prioritize modernizing our electric grid to evolve to support localized, renewable energy generation, reduce electricity waste, and increase security from sabotage or attack. Power outages are up 285% over the last 30 years, costing businesses as much as $150 billion each year, and renewable energy sources remain unconnected.

Make robust investments in state and community resiliency.

Increase our investment in basic clean energy research so the U.S. can reclaim the lead on energy innovation, including advancing development, deployment, transmission, storage for renewable energy, and managing demand more effectively.

Work with industry to help meet skills and employment needs that the current labor market isn’t sufficiently supplying, like utility workers and cybersecurity experts.




All of O'Malley's plans are posted in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12813600

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
8. Any one of these items is a step forward - seeing them as a
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:42 PM
Nov 2015

comprehensive plan is beyond my wildest dreams.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
11. No. Issues don't play as well for one group of posters.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 11:11 PM
Nov 2015

So they look for anything else they can use.

The same people will claim accurately quoting their candidate is an attack.

DU is going to be insane until about March 2017.

LibDemAlways

(15,139 posts)
28. I was attacked here two days ago by Hillary
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 12:59 PM
Nov 2015

supporters and accused of making threats for suggesting that they ought to focus on her positives rather than continually dissing people who like Bernie. I can fully understand someone having a tough time making the case for any of the Repukes in the race, but come on, if Hillary is such an outstanding candidate who deserves to be the next President, please tell me and others why you think so.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
13. I'd like to see more policy stuff
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 11:18 PM
Nov 2015

And how we're going to get out of the economic, environmental and foreign policy crises we've gotten ourselves into.

That said, I think we've gotten a good idea of who stands for what over this cycle, and we're just marking time here on DU while things are moving on the ground.

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
15. "I'd like to see...how we're going to get out of the economic, environmental and..."
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 12:00 AM
Nov 2015

"... foreign policy crises we've gotten ourselves into."


We cant do it by electing more Third Way neo-liberals who will continue the same policies we've suffered under the last 35 years.

Of course that gets back to the real reason the Hillary supporters want nothing to do with real policy discussions......


Hydra

(14,459 posts)
16. I know, their answer is "What Problems? Everything is going according to plan!"
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 12:05 AM
Nov 2015

Which is a great way of laying out their platform- more of the same.

postatomic

(1,771 posts)
14. .... and your point is reaffirmed.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 11:57 PM
Nov 2015

Politicians tend to pander to their core voting block, and issues alone do not make a good Candidate. Even if you tried to start a discussion on GDP about a particular issue it would turn into a Snark & Gothca' fest. Besides a few Hillary specific feeds I'm set up to receive alerts on specific issues. It's how I get most of my information.

To find something substantive on GDP is like losing your Watch in the Land Fill and trying desperately to find it.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. Did you see this thread?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:10 AM
Nov 2015

Hillary's bad judgement makes her unfit to be Commander-In-Chief.

Hillary supported regime change in Iraq. That policy has resulted in hundreds of thousands killed, thousands of American soldiers killed, countless injuries, and horrific chaos that continues today.

Hillary supported regime change in Libya that has resulted in mass suffering, death, and chaos that continues today. She refers to it as "smart power at its best."

Hillary did not oppose the coup that ousted the democratically elected president in Honduras. That coup fueled the violence in Honduras that contributed to a refugee crisis at our border.

Hillary supported nation-building in Afghanistan and even bigger troop increases in Afghanistan than Obama approved. The approved increase resulted in hundreds of American soldiers losing their lives.

Hillary not only supported the Israeli attacks in Gaza, but was not even willing to condemn Israel for its disproportionate use of force in those attacks.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
35. One of my goals here
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 01:57 PM
Nov 2015

Is to put Hillary supporters on the spot and get them to debate the serious issues. Unfortunately, they won't debate, and I figure it is because they know better than to openly support warmongering?

The future is: War could break out at any moment, and if we have a president who is prone to launch invasions then the risk is great. That's why I support Bernie, because he as shown that launching an invasion is the last thing he would do.

postatomic

(1,771 posts)
37. There's nothing to debate
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:28 PM
Nov 2015

The Contention is: Hillary's bad judgment makes her unfit to be Commander-In-Chief.

Now you preface it by suggesting that I have to suppress my Warmongering Agenda. I could go through item by item but why waste my time? And all of your "points" are seriously flawed. They are biased to the 100th degree.

Oh, and have you actually met Bernie Sanders? Do you know him? What scares me about Senator Sanders is what excites you. When faced with a crisis he will have a bakers dozen of people that will be feeding him information and making suggestions for addressing the crisis. I don't think Senator Sanders could handle that. I fear his extreme narcissistic personality would cause him to make terrible decisions.

Hillary just received another of several endorsements she got just in the last few days. This time by F-15 pilot, Former Ambassador, Brigadier General Jim Smith.

And I quote........

Americans would be well served having Secretary Clinton's tenacity and judgement in the White House. At home and abroad, she has taken on tough fights and delivered.

http://www.eagletribune.com/opinion/column-using-benghazi-incident-for-political-gain-is-shameful/article_11e73f1a-a453-5609-b3c2-318d9936029d.html

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
38. She delivered
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:39 PM
Nov 2015

And Libya lay in ruins.

One needs to look at past votes.

GW wanted to make war on Iraq, and she voted yes. Bernie voted NO, as did half of the Democrats in congress.

As for your smear on Bernie? Well, par for the course.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
23. Well that is certainly new - advocating that the issues don't matter
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:12 AM
Nov 2015

What school of Criss Angel contortion did it take to arrive at that conclusion?

postatomic

(1,771 posts)
25. My words: "issues alone do not make a good Candidate"
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 12:36 PM
Nov 2015

And the point I made about Snark & Gotcha' is once more; reaffirmed. You have a wonderful day.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
17. Issues!? What the hell do you think this is -- a *discussion* board!?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 12:49 AM
Nov 2015

It hasn't been that.... for years.



elleng

(130,767 posts)
21. HAPPY to, hedgehog.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:07 AM
Nov 2015
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