2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumRon Paul, Julian Assange, Glenn Greenwald and the Libertarians’ Electoral Strategy
Ron Paul gave his speech in Florida Sunday night, at some distance from the convention that had offered him a time slot only if he would cleanly endorse the GOP nominee -- and only if party censors could preview his text
The Libertarians are the third largest political party in the US: in every election, they collect a few tenths of a percent of the vote. If each and every Libertarian voter rustled up several hundred new Libertarian recruits, theyd become a major force. But they havent done that yet. The Libertarians did win an electoral vote, once, back back in 1972, but it wasnt because they cooked up a big mess of organized dialing and door-knocking: an elector, pledged to vote for Tricky Dick Nixon, simply pulled his own dicky trick and voted the Libertarian ticket. The GOP does not quickly forgive or forget, and though Paul might call himself a Republican, everybody knows hes really a libertarian. Suspicion clearly remains, that Paul (like the faithless elector of 1972) is ready to betray the GOP for his Libertarian friends
So Paul spoke Sunday at the Sun Dome, not at the Times Forum. Some of what he said there is actually interesting -- but only because it is very very unoriginal. Paul called Bradley Manning the equivalent of Daniel Ellsberg and said Manning hasnt caused the death of anybody. He complained that Sweden, under US pressure, was pursuing false charges against Julian Assange and would extradite Assange to the US for prosecution
The Libertarians, of course, have wandered forlornly for decades, hoping to pick up whatever support they could wherever they could. Back during the Vietnam War, for example, Libertarians often tried to recruit with the hook that they would legalize marijuana. And there were reports last year that Libertarians flocked to Occupy! events in hopes to win converts there. So one might wonder: has Paul just stumbled as an opportunist into Assangist territory?
But there really might be more to the story. The cypherpunk culture, that spawned Assange, had laissez-faire libertarian sympathies. And Assange calls himself a libertarian. He called himself a libertarian in a 2010 interview with Forbes; he called himself a libertarian on 60 Minutes in 2011; and he called himself a libertarian while pretending to consider a run for the Australian Senate in 2012. More precisely, Assange self-identifies as a free-market libertarian who dislikes regulation. His personal libertarian ideology would explain why Assange was eager to take credit for Climategate: when he later gushed "We released over ten years of emails from the CRU and those climate scientists!" maybe he was just thrilled (as a friend of free markets and foe of regulation) to have played a role in scuttling the Copenhagen Summit
Various Libertarians manage to repeat the very very unoriginal tale Ron Paul was telling in Florida in support of Assange
Raimondo, for example, firmly believes the contest between Julian Assange and most of the worlds governments is a clear cut case of good versus evil -- then trots out the now-familiar theory in which female Swedish CIA assets honey-trapped Assange to force him to face a kangaroo court in Sweden before being extradited to the US for detention at Guantanamo
Another well-known Libertarian, who plows these fields regularly and diligently, is Glenn Greenwald, associated with the Cato Institute. The day after the November 2010 election, Glenn Greenwald addressed Paulites in Wisconsin to discuss the possibility of splitting progressive voters away from the Democrats. Greenwalds strategy then included Libertarian support for Citizens United, Bradley Manning, and the Tea Party, as well as attacks on Obama, in the hopes that the Democrats would lose still more seats in 2012
... Paul went on to defend, as he often does, the WikiLeaks leaker Bradley Manning, comparing him to "Daniel Ellsberg, who told us the truth about Vietnam." He suggested, again, that Julian Assange is being railroaded on false charges ...
The End of Ron Paul and His Selective Patriots
By John H. Richardson at 1:02AM
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/ron-paul-tampa-speech-12091867
Ron Paul Stands for Manning and Assange
By Michael Tracey August 27, 2012, 7:50 PM
http://news.xydo.com/toolbar/69719254?subject_id=1151
The Cypherpunk Revolutionary: Julian Assange
Robert Manne
The Monthly | The Monthly Essays | March 2011
http://www.themonthly.com.au/julian-assange-cypherpunk-revolutionary-robert-manne-3081
... Im not a big fan of regulation ... WikiLeaks means its easier to run a good business and harder to run a bad business, and all CEOs should be encouraged by this ... A perfect market requires perfect information ... So as far as markets are concerned Im a libertarian ...
An Interview With WikiLeaks' Julian Assange
Andy Greenberg, Forbes Staff
11/29/2010 @ 5:02PM |911,599 views
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/an-interview-with-wikileaks-julian-assange/
... Assange prefers to be called a libertarian ...
Julian Assange gushes to 60 Minutes
Monday, Jan 31, 2011 06:18 AM EST
By Adam Clark Estes
http://www.salon.com/2011/01/31/assange_60_minutes_video/
... In his first interview since declaring his intention to run for the Senate in the next federal election, Mr Assange said he ''could be described as a libertarian'' ...
Assange: what I'll do in the Senate
March 27, 2012
Philip Dorlin
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/assange-what-ill-do-in-the-senate-20120326-1vupq.html#ixzz1qJWQhL6S
... There is clearly a significant level of support for Julian Assange which crosses party lines and is more concentrated amongst Greens voters ... Assange announced plans to run for Australias 76-seat Senate in March, vowing to be a libertarian and fierce defender of free media were he elected to the upper house ...
WikiLeaks chief has real chance of election: poll
Sun, May 20, 2012
AFP, SYDNEY
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2012/05/20/2003533290
Wikileaks Greatest Hits: Climategate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021162614
If there was ever a clear cut case of good versus evil, then surely it is the contest between Julian Assange and most of the worlds governments ...
Raimondo Article: Assange's Last Stand
Submitted by reedr3v on Fri, 07/06/2012 - 12:19
http://www.dailypaul.com/243445/raimondo-article-assanges-last-stand
Glenn Greenwald
http://www.cato-unbound.org/contributors/glenn-greenwald/
... Ron Paul is the only political figure with any sort of a national platform certainly the only major presidential candidate in either party who advocates policy views on issues that liberals and progressives have long flamboyantly claimed are both compelling and crucial....
Progressives and the Ron Paul fallacies
The benefits of his candidacy are widely ignored, as are the Democrats' own evils
Saturday, Dec 31, 2011 11:15 AM EST
By Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/
At a talk given the day after the 2010 election one that was a disaster for Democrats progressive writer and civil liberties lawyer Glenn Greenwald gave a talk at the University of Wisconsin, and expressed the hope that Democrats might suffer the same fate in 2012. Greenwalds ... approach to politics that got members of the Young Americans for Liberty a Paulite Libertarian group that co-sponsored the event excited ...
Re-rise of the Naderites: Glenn Greenwalds third party dreamin **UPDATE: on Libertarianism
http://blog.reidreport.com/2011/04/re-rise-of-the-naderites-glenn-greenwalds-third-party-dreamin/
leveymg
(36,418 posts)struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)n/t
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)that post their bullshit on DU - you suck at your jobs" in favor of a similar but more verbose OP, relying heavily on Greenwald, I suppose I should call your attention to the fact that I've already responded to that OP:
Yet another example of Greenwald's now long history as a fuckeddy-faced little liar.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208534
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021205316#post43
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...doesn't mean your arguments were true.
There are several posts in the thread you link to, that clearly debunk Green's assertions and support Greenwald's assertions.
But whoever is right or wrong in those legalistic discussions, I must say that calling Greenwald a "fuckeddy-faced little liar" does not lend weight to your own arguments, such as they are.
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Granted, I don't think it will work against the cult of personality around Julian Assange, but people who tilt and windmills and walk through Athens with a lantern looking for one honest man fill an important roll.
tama
(9,137 posts)with conclusion:
http://thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/2011/11/08/julian-assange-cyber-libertarian-or-cyber-anarchist/
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)how much he loves markets and how he generally opposes regulation?
tama
(9,137 posts)and I'm very lefty anarchist-communist. Left-copy and free-ware products (Linux etc etc) are about free market which is free from capitalist coercion and greed, market functioning as gift economy. Much of free market of ganja functions also as gift economy. Wikileaks has been working as free market of gift-economy journalism.
Assange's lifestyle seems to have been very much that of a moneyless bum, depending from free market of gift economy.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)Unknown pop reference to me.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)for his 2010 book deal and also paid himself $86K in salary from the Wau Holland funds that year (while $1.9 million came into Wau Holland for Wikileaks in that year). That seems to be the only year for which there's any data: the supposedly transparent organization has typically produced no financial records, so we have no idea if there are other cashpots lying around
tama
(9,137 posts)Assange was, then, an absolutist crypto-anarchist but one who leant decidedly to the Left. Mainstream cypherpunks did not defend trade unions or speak negatively of rampant capitalists and positively of human rights activists. He was an electronic but not an economic libertarian.
http://www.themonthly.com.au/julian-assange-cypherpunk-revolutionary-robert-manne-3081
Your psy-ops attempt is as obvious as always.
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...and against going to war in Iraq. Me too. In fact, lots of us here at DU shared those positions with Ron Paul. And many of us acknowledge libertarian leanings in some areas. When that test of political leanings comes around every so often, there are many DUers who fall into the "left-libertarian" (lower left) quadrant.
So. This must mean that all of us and our views are discredited because Ron Paul (gasp!) shares the same positions.
That's what you're saying, right?
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)one-and-the-same crackpot theory about Julian Assange because it's part of the current Libertarian political strategy
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...but in any case, I stand by my remarks. You are using the standard political smear tactic of saying "See, he agrees with this guy on this issue, therefore he's just like this guy and is part of the same movement".
Which is, simply stated, horseshit.
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)ideas about Julian Assange. One of them is politician Paul, who just the other day was spouting this nonsense. And another Raimondo, a paleo-conservative libertarian, who spouts exactly the same nonsense. The third is Glenn Greenwald. None are friends of the Democrat
They come from very different backgrounds, so it is odd to find them all spouting the same crackpot nonsense
Greenwald trained as a lawyer, so he's been taught the important of evidence in a narrative. But he's pushing a crackpot narrative without evidence! A look at Greenwald's history gives a clue: Greenwald's stated objective this electoral cycle is to split progressives away from the Democrats -- and his stated strategy for doing that includes the Wikileaks story
What about Paul? Nothing Paul says in Florida this week is accidental. If Paul is pushing the crackpot theory this week, he's doing it for political reasons too. Since Greenwald is a known speaker in Libertarian circles, having no trouble getting international attention for himself, and had regularly admired Paul in print, it's not wild theorizing to say Paul's campaign advisers have heard of Greenwald and are familiar with his ideas: it's a certainty, because competent high-level campaign staff learn who's out there and what ideas they're pushing. Since the Paul campaign has lost the GOP fight this year, so they must be reaching elsewhere this week. So who exactly is Paul trying to reach by pushing crackpot theories about Assange? An entirely reasonable guess is that Paul's gang is following somewhat along the lines of Greenwald's analysis
Raimondo, of course, is a third-tier player. But he's spouting exactly the same nonsense. Crackpot theories usually don't get repeated everywhere, unless there's some mechanism for promoting message discipline. Greenwald's been pushing this nonsense; the Paul campaign is echoing it; again, a natural guess is that a core group of Libertarians has agreed to push it everywhere
Does that mean everybody who pushes the theory is a Libertarian? Of course not
tama
(9,137 posts)he's lying. Hateful prejudice does that to people, makes them behave stupid and dishonest.
So the all too obvious purpose of this post in the flood of character assassination was to associate Assange politically with rw paulite libertarians who are not so "popular" on partisan DU, except when they throw clogs in the Rethug machine.
More careful and impartial study shows that Assange belongs in the same left-libertarian lower left quadrant as most of DUers.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The Faux Freakout over Ron Paul
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002154246
The same tired tactic, smear by association, comes up also whenever the President is rightly criticized for his war policies. It does not surprise me that it is trotted out for Assange, especially since the rape apologia accusations have backfired so explosively and been exposed as the despicable and cynical tactic they are.
It shows how desperate the corporate one percent are to spin this story for public consumption.
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)"Libertarians .. in every election .. collect a few tenths of a percent of the vote"
How is that a freak-out over Paul or his Libertarian buddies?
Puregonzo1188
(1,948 posts)But I guess the Assange is a communist card is so 1956?
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)reproduce themselves so precisely, in the absence of any evidence to support them
Puregonzo1188
(1,948 posts)struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)That's not AFAIK a direct Paul quote, but I take that is what you refer to by "crack pot theory". From your position which seems to be in that one dimensional approach that world's governments are good so Assange must be evil, or at made look so.
***
I assume that you are aware of Political Compass (or some similar even more professional analysis of political chart and climate), how majority of DUers, OWSers (and perhaps even majority of Americans???) locate on it. And where Obama and Romney are located. If DUers are representative of progressives, they are are located in the opposite corner of Obama (and Romney). It's been pretty obvious pretty long time that progressives or American general public are in terms of issues and actual policies represented by the partisan system. Ever more so clearly with OWS. So for partisan politicos of various backgrounds to smell a large segment of potential support in the lower left corner is not a some crack pot conspiracy, just self evident fact.
OK, what is the real likelihood of lefty progressives making unholy alliance with righty libertarians in near of far future to get through some of the social liberal and anti-militaristic and anti-corruption issues both sides support and feel strongly about? Dunno, don't consider it very likely. But looking at the map of political compass and remembering history of Third Way etc. and having been following these discussions long time, at least it would be something else.
struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)so his stance should be clear to everyone by now
Tarheel_Dem
(31,222 posts)My stance is that Libertarians are assholes, all half dozen of 'em.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)struggle4progress
(118,230 posts)He seems quite predictable to me ...
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid