If I raise your pay by ten bucks, and raise your taxes by one dollar

[MannyGoldstein]

You're totally @#$&ed.

Checkmate, Sandernistas!

Regards,

TWM

#readmylipsnonewtaxes

[tk2kewl]

1. ...and cut your bills

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Even worse. nt

[JaneyVee]

5. Cut which bills?

[tk2kewl]

7. Doctors and medicine

[JaneyVee]

8. My employer pays them.

[tk2kewl]

9. Good for you

I hope you never need any medicine or care that is not covered

[senz]

12. So does mine

but not everyone is in the same nice boat as we. As a Democrat and democrat, I care about the basic well-being of those with whom I share this country. Other people shouldn't have to go without healthcare.

[JaneyVee]

15. Which is why we should expand Medicaid.

Isn't something like 90% of the population covered by employer?

[Scuba]

16. No.

[Melurkyoulongtime]

35. Are you serious?

Employer provided healthcare per Wikipedia for 2012 (the latest stat I can find while at work): "The percentage and number of people covered by employment-based health insurance in 2012 were not statistically different from 2011, at 54.9 percent and 170.9 million.". That's far less then the 90% you're guessing at. And btw, unless you force the states to expand Medicaid (which you can't per the Supreme Court) people like me stuck in a shit job w no insurance in a state the refuses to expand it are still fucked. Do your homework instead of guesswork next time.

[merrily]

21. And screw everyone else!

[JaneyVee]

23. Or expand Medicaid.

[merrily]

24. That costs, too.

[JaneyVee]

25. Yes, but we won't be collapsing an entire industry in the process.

An industry that also creates millions of middle class jobs.

[merrily]

28. Are you referring to the health insurance industry?

Because those middle class job holders could be migrated to Medicare for All rather easily. So, preserving an industry that should have been phased out decades ago is not about middle class workers at all.

[JaneyVee]

29. So force them all to become govt employees?

[merrily]

30. Um, no. I think the Thirteenth Amendment and common decency prevent that.

I believe it's called offering someone a job.

[JonLeibowitz]

32. Many govt employees are happy where they work, btw. The TSP is a great retirement program too.

[jeff47]

34. No, your employer pays you less money in order to pay them. (nt)

[OilemFirchen]

3. Having a job kinda helps. (n/t)

[JaneyVee]

4. It will likely be reverse scenario.

[Electric Monk]

36. For JoeThePlumber™ nt

[Kalidurga]

6. They are gonna need a bigger bus

math...

[frazzled]

10. Who says that's how it works?

In Denmark, for instance (since we want to be like Denmark), incomes over around $55K (considerably less than the average teacher's salary where I live) are taxed at 60.2%. It might be a good tradeoff for all the services, but I doubt most Americans would like to see their tax rate rise from, say, 16% to 60%. http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/01/pf/taxes/top-income-tax/

Let's make one thing clear: nobody here on this board is an economist who has figured out the very complex, real costs of various proposed programs. The $1 on a $10 raise sounds like something you pulled out of a hat.

[kath]

14. Do you understand the concept of MARGINAL tax rates?

And if two of the biggest stressors for Americans - ridiculously high costs for medical insurance/deductibles/drugs, and college tuition - were eliminated, higher taxes would be well worth it, just as it is understood in civilized countries.

Only in the US does the concept of medical bankruptcy even exist.

[Jarqui]

19. For one:

So you know I'm not pulling numbers completely out of my ass, this was my reference tonight. I think you'll find this is good enough
https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/statistics-trends-and-reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/nhe-fact-sheet.html

One example for big savings:
In those tables, they split out Medicare, Medicaid and private health insurance. For discussion purposes, the private health insurance at a minimum is currently a trillion $ per year.

Insurance companies were distressed that they had to commit 80-85% of their insurance revenue to delivering health care under the ACA. Medicare/Medicaid delivers 98%. So just getting the fat cat insurance companies out of the way will reduce private health insurance costs between 13-18%. You could do everything else the same and save a massive big bundle = 13-18% of $1 trillion/year is between $130 and $180 billion every year. That's at a minimum what the private insurance companies are taking out of American hides each year.

And there is a trickle down effect because hospitals and doctors aren't mailing out bills and chasing insurance companies or debtors and writing off bills folks don't pay, etc. Under single payer, the government audits them periodically and they send in one bill to one place for their services periodically that covers the vast majority of their patients. So the system gets a heck of a lot more streamlined to providing healthcare and loses the parasites and administrative baggage. I don't have a number for you but it would be something like what it costs the insurance companies to do - 10-15% cost reduction ballpark.

And again, at that point, you haven't cut one service or reduced the quality of healthcare one bit. All you've done is permanently got the leeches and parasites who profit off the health misfortunes of Americans off their backs. So of the $820-870 billion doctors/hospitals bill, you should see a 10-15% reduction ($82 to $130 billion per year) because administration for them became so much easier.

138 million workers are paying for $1 trillion in private heathcare costs today. The two items alone above reduce that by $212 to $310 billion per year - which saves the average worker $1500 to $2200 over year (though it would be higher than that because some of those workers would be covered by Medicare/Medicaid).

In simple theory, in that simple example, the average worker would see their taxes go up roughly what their healthcare costs are less $1500-$2200 per year. Obviously, those at the poverty level would pay less to help keep it affordable for them and those at the top income levels would pay more to subsidize those who need it.

There are other areas where savings could be achieved (see the ACA examples and extend it for the entire country): pooling of resources, reductions of overheads through consolation of administration, better bargaining/negotiating power, etc.

It would also help to solve a second BIG problem for Democrats: single payer probably requires photo ID to work - it did in Canada - like getting a drivers licence or passport. Except EVERYONE has to get one. And they're typically free. Nearly everyone gets sick at some point so they eventually have to get one. About that voter registration problem .... it could be the trojan horse that helps put that to bed forever. Kill two birds with one stone.

This notion about it raising someone's taxes in the vast majority of cases for those already paying for health insurance will be BS. Most people will save substantial money.

[AgingAmerican]

20. Yet they have as much, or more disposable income than we do!

How is that possible??!?

Big difference is they get stuff for their money. And they have eliminated poverty.

[merrily]

22. And heaven knows, economists really know their stuff. Which is why none of them

ever contradict each other and every economy in the world is in such great shape.

But, when you bring all the argle bargle to a bottom line, this ain't such a bad bottom line:

People who live in the happiest countries have longer life expectancies and more social support, experience more generosity, have more freedom to make life choices, have lower perceptions of corruption and have a higher gross domestic product per capita, the report shows.


Switzerland

Iceland

Denmark

Norway

Canada

Finland

Netherlands

Sweden

New Zealand

Australia



http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/23/travel/feat-world-happiest-countries-2015/


I rest my case, especially given that absence of sunlight causes SAD (seasonal affective disorder--basically, depression) and some of these nations have sunlight "outtages."

But, who wants things like happiness, longer life expectancies, more freedom to make life choices, and a higher gross domestic product per capita?

[Doctor_J]

11. ...Fox news and the Clinton campaign will scream that you raised my taxes

[Chan790]

13. Fox News is staffed by ideologues and the Clinton campaign by idiots...

so neither surprises me.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. I don't like having to pay for cluster bombs though

[senz]

18. Righties hate taxes and love low wages

because taxes go to the government -- which might impose consumer, labor and environmental regulations on business -- while wages cut into business profits. Thus, we must keep taxes low in order to keep government as impotent as possible or, as conservative guru Grover Norquist liked to say, to "starve the beast." Wages, on the other hand, are paid out of money that otherwise would go to the real contributors, upper management and stockholders. So wages should be kept low.

The goal is to allow businesses to flourish unimpeded by regulations while paying workers as little as possible. If the pay is low enough, the workers can qualify for government assistance, which is the Walmart model. That way the owners rake in the money while underpaid workers survive on government assistance, thus further depleting government resources, a nice win for business.

And that's where we are today. I can't imagine why Bernie Sanders would object to that.

In case it's necessary:

[Autumn]

26. I'm confused about that. Lately I'm seeing some lefty's that hate

taxes and love low wages too. It's a mystery to me.

[TDale313]

33. Perhaps they're not really lefties...

Or they're trying desperately to support a candidate who consistently takes positions that are right of center 🤔

[Cassiopeia]

27. Basic math!

If you don't understand math at all that is.

[merrily]

31. As I've posted before, this is the reason I've turned down a billion dollars a year.

I'll be dipped if I'm going to pay the US government all that income tax!