Salon: "America has never recovered from Ronald Reagan. That’s why Bernie Sanders is so important."

[Attorney in Texas]

Excerpt from the great Salon article "America has never recovered from Ronald Reagan. That’s why Bernie Sanders is so important":

On Thursday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) gave his long planned speech on Democratic Socialism, invoking great American leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and reminding everyone that some of the most popular social programs we have today — Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid — were all once labeled socialist and aggressively opposed by monied interests, who FDR called “economic royalists.”

Not only were social programs opposed and called socialism; so were any kind of laws or regulations that intervened with the “free market” for the betterment of society. “Unemployment insurance, abolishing child labor, the 40-hour work week, collective bargaining, strong banking regulations, deposit insurance, and job programs that put millions of people to work were all described, in one way or another, as ‘socialist,’” explained Sanders.
...
Bernie Sanders, FDR, MLK, and many other past and present Americans have a very different view of freedom, and believe that the freedom to starve or to be left untreated after being seriously injured is no freedom at all. As FDR said while listing his Second Bill of Rights, “we have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence.” ...For Sanders and other Democratic Socialists (or Social Democrats), socialism is not so much about having the individual freedom to do what you wish without ever taking on a role (a major flaw in Marx’s thought was his dismissal of identity and the fulfillment human beings find in roles, e.g. someone who writes or paints would like be known as a writer or a painter), but having the freedom to fully utilize your innate talents and pursue work that you love, without having to worry about medical care or being tens of thousands dollars in debt for a necessary education. It is the right for every single person who works hard, regardless of how skilled or unskilled the labor is, to have a livable wage. And of course, it is democracy, or as Sanders put it:

“Democratic socialism, to me, does not just mean that we must create a nation of economic and social justice. It also means that we must create a vibrant democracy based on the principle of one person one vote.”

[sabrina 1]

1. This is so true:

“we have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence.” FDR

[lewebley3]

42. Not true: Hillary is the heir to FDR, not Sanders

[tex-wyo-dem]

44. heh...good one, lewebley3!

[lewebley3]

49. FDR was practical politician and leader of Dem's: Like Hillary

Sanders is an ideologue; FDR was not

[Hortensis]

56. Well, that is true. FDR was quintessential paternalistic

establishment. An old money ideology that never entirely lost that sense of noblesse oblige to the lower classes, even if it was often set aside in pursuit of wealth. Fortunately for us, he was also liberal by nature.

Unlike all conservatives and economic-type libertarians. This is a good illustration of the reality that their policies unchecked naturally lead to a economically very unequal socioeconomic structure that has always existed in "underdeveloped"-type regions. Almost all of these areas have small, extremely wealthy classes and enormous impoverished working classes:

“Liberty does not mean all good things or the absence of all evils. It is true that to be free may mean freedom to starve, to make costly mistakes, or to run mortal risks. In the sense in which we use the term, the penniless vagabond who lives precariously by constant improvisation is indeed freer than the conscripted soldier with all his security and relative comfort.”

And that's the nicest way that a few advantaged people collecting as much wealth as possible into their own possession can be put. Nothing new here.

[lewebley3]

58. FDR was rich and one of the nation leading families: Hillary while not rich

Hillary worked for every penny she was!

[Hortensis]

70. You are right -- Hillary is self made by her own long, hard work

And excellence. (I forgot to tie back to just what I was responding to with FDR.). Hillary had far more achievements already than Bill when she married him.

[rhett o rick]

63. FDR supported regulating the super wealthy and Glass-Steigall. Clinton

has made it clear she won't regulate Wall Street and the super wealthy and she is against Glass-Steigall. They couldn't be more different.

Sanders wants to fix the corruption of Dirty Money in politics, while Clinton wants to take advantage of it.

[lewebley3]

66. FDR only put Steigall after the crash: Hillary is plan is stronger than steigall

[rhett o rick]

69. Her plan? Oh, right her "plan". Are you interested in some water front in the Everglades? nm

[lewebley3]

82. You didn't listen to the Debate: You only listen to Sanders

[rhett o rick]

61. Clinton has praised Reagan. She has supported his actions to cut Social Security. nm

[lewebley3]

78. The Clinton's were in office they didn't cut SS: Hillary is a loyal Dem:

and a smart politician, saying good things about Reagan when
you can is a good idea, it shows throws people who have
heart felt affection for Reagan, that you respect them
even if they are not Dem's.

Hillary kind words from time to time doesn't mean that she
endorses anything about Reagan. What it says is that
Hillary is smart and kind politician.

If Hillary could change every 10% of the people who would
vote for the GOP to supporting the Dem's, the chances
for more Dem's to be elected as well as her maybe possible.

GO Hilary! (Smart lady) FDR would appove

[peacebird]

62. Hillary is the heir to FDR, if by FDR you mean 'For Dear Richfolks'!

[lewebley3]

67. If Hillary were for the rich: She wouldn't be a Dem: Nor worked in public ser

Hillary could have been a much richer person:

[peacebird]

68. Have patience, she's working on it! Think how much higher her speaking fees will be if she is nom!

[Art_from_Ark]

72. So a net worth of $50 million is not rich?

[lewebley3]

80. Hillary net worth is chump change compared to the GOP: Also she earned her

money from her hard work, not from employees, or her trust fund.

Also much of Clinton money goes to Charity and to them Dem party
for which the both Clinton's have selflessly give up funds to help
Sanders even have chance to get on any ballot.

[lewebley3]

76. FDR was a" rich folk": Hillary is heir to Dem party: She is a smart politician

Like FDR: FDR's wealth didn't stop him from leading the
Dem party by cutting deals for working America.

[merrily]

74. That's a joke. New Democrats like Hillary took the name "New Democrats" precisely to disassociate

themselves from traditional Democrats like FDR and LBJ.

[lewebley3]

75. Hillary is an old Dem, and much longer than Sanders

[merrily]

77. Um, She and her husband help start the New Democrats. Lapse of time has nothing to do with it.

But, you knew that. Then again, maybe I should not assume. You've claimed that voting for the Iraq War Resolution was not a war vote.

[lewebley3]

79. Sorry the Dem party didn't start with the Clintons: Its was the same party old Party

[Betty Karlson]

57. Quite so: it is no coincidence that those who espouse radical corporatism

are uncomfortably often also the ones who try to pooh-pooh the misery of slavery and other indentures: "So what if those people could not have living wages? They were alive and productive, what more could they want?"

[merrily]

2. I can't anymore. I just can't. Reagan was in office 8 years, which 8 years

ended in January 1989, almost 27 freaking years ago. He died in 2004, nine freaking years ago. Before that he was suffering from Alzheimers, not controlling government from behind the scenes.

The reason we never recovered from Reagan is that no president or Congress, Democrat or Republican, since has wanted us to recover, has wanted to do and say the things that would lead to recovery. Neither has any plutocrat. Indeed, it's become worse.

Until we admit that, until we admit it's not only Reagan, and not only one major political party or this other, this country will NEVER recover.

Stop burying us under this nonsense. (That is not directed at the OP as a poster.)

[sabrina 1]

4. I thought that Democrats, voters I mean, had realized this. I still think they do, but they

succumb, many of them, to the politics of fear. 'Remember the SC' well I do, that is why I support the ONLY candidate in this race who is likely to put a stop gap in what Reagan began and what sadly, our own Party has facilitated.

You are not alone among those who have had ENOUGH and are ready to work as hard as possible to change the course of this country. It won't be easy, but nothing good that has ever been achieved, is ever easy.

On the good side we have so much enthusiasm for huge change among the people.

All they needed was someone to speak for them.

And we are fortunate to have that right now.

[merrily]

6. Agree. We are incredibly fortunate to have an opportunity for a sea change in favor or

the people, not the plutocrats. We may never have one again in our lifetimes.

It's incredible to me that some seem willing to lose that opportunity.

Thank you for your always pertinent and uplifting thoughts.

[sabrina 1]

7. If they are WILLING to miss this opportunity, then they don't matter. Far more

people imo, and from my own interactions with people, WANT a SEA CHANGE. Bernie only has to be introduced to them for them to realize, 'this is a guy who can at least BEGIN to turn this 'ship of state' around'. As he says though, being the realist he is, he cannot make a dent, even if he wins, ALONE! He will need that Political Revolution he speaks of.

He is a very wise man.

[merrily]

11. Indeed, Sanders is a wise man. Good judgment and prescience as well.

We are fortunate he is running!

[lewebley3]

43. Thatis right most American's don't want a sea Change: They want Good Change

Last edited Wed Nov 25, 2015, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

[daleanime]

59. Yea the status quo?

Oh, well, have a lovely day.

[lewebley3]

81. Wrong: Most American's want a good future: not quo

[sabrina 1]

60. Most Americans have spoken for themselves That is why Bernie is doing so well, he

speaks for the PEOPLE not the Corporations!

[pnwmom]

14. He was the one who turned the Rethug party against ALL government.

Who convinced them there was no such thing as good government. He deserves the blame for that.

[merrily]

15. Clueless. Republicans were against big government as soon as FDR got the Supreme Court

to stop voiding his legislation by expanding the SCOTUS interpretation of the Commerce Clause and the General Welfare clause.* And Barry Goldwater preceded Reagan.

Apart from that nothing in my post suggests Reagan was blameless. That's your straw person and your attempt to deflect. My post is about the lack of effort to reverse the Reagan effect, rather than, if anything, doubling down on it.

Any pretense that the situation today, 23 years after he left office, is his fault and no one else's, is both laughable and dangerous. However, I can certainly understand your wanting to ignore the past 23 years by deflecting from the present back to Reagain, 23-31 years ago.

*ETA For all I know Republicans were against "big government" the minute government took a dollar in taxes from them. This post is only what I know off the top of my head.

[pnwmom]

25. You sure love to put words into other people's mouths. It's how you convince yourself

that you're always right about everything.

[merrily]

33. This is what you said. It had nothing to do with my Reply 2, which never claimed Reagan

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 12:56 AM - Edit history (1)

was blameless and really had to do with his successors, not him. And it's incorrect anyway.

He was the one who turned the Rethug party against ALL government.

Who convinced them there was no such thing as good government. He deserves the blame for that.

No words were put in your mouth, but you go always go ad hom against me by your second or third reply to me, no matter what. With that, the last word is yours, since it seems to mean so much to you.

[Dustlawyer]

22. The solution Bernie has to solve the root problem that most of our problems

are a symptom of, campaign finance (bribe), is to have Publically Funded Elections (PFEs). The reason we need PFEs is that Plutocrats run our country by being able to have laws written and passed that benefit them; able to control the media and all regulatory agencies; and the DOJ, most of the judicial branch; all right down to the local level. They fund AstroTurf organizations to get more Tort reform, RW think tanks that put out "expert" reports that justify whatever corporate America needs it to such as Climate Change being "bogus." It's all so insidious and it started during Reagan.

The political revolution Bernie talks about is PFEs and an end to Super Pacs. It breaks the chain and would force TPTB to have to illegally bribe the politicians, much harder and more risk, especially with a real, funded DOJ! We regain Representative Democracy should we succeed. Will Hillary even attempt this, hell no!

Former PRESIDENT Jimmy Carter said that America has become an Oligarchy. I think they printed it as high as page 10 in some papers! He was only stating the obvious. I am fighting so America will no longer be under corporate rule! Political Revolution is still "revolution." It means that we have to take the reins of power back through the political process. The only way to accomplish this is a strong, committed, very large group of Americans who understand what has happened and what needs to be done. Feel the Bern!

[merrily]

36. Do you know a period in American history when America was not an oligarchy?

In my view, the major change is that a greater percentage of wealth is now concentrated at the top. While that is significant, it is not as significant as changing from a democracy to an an oligarchy.

I think we began as an oligarchy with the East India Company, Governors appointed by the King, land grants from the King, etc.

[FreakinDJ]

27. Actually Reagan was out of office in 1988

Poppy Bush was out in 92 and the country was suffering from a recession again

[merrily]

32. Thanks! I'll fix.

[Art_from_Ark]

73. Reagan's 2nd term ended on January 20, 1989.

Bush I's term ended on January 20, 1993.

[Hydra]

34. You are quite correct

Reagan was not even the person directing policy- what we've really had is 35 years of Poppy Bush's Rule by proxy. Reagan, himself, Clinton, Younger Bush, Obama, and now Mrs. Clinton or Jeb.

We've had 35 years of complete insanity, greed and increasing attacks on our liberties, a reflection of the Man himself. His utopia and perfect world.

We have to end it before it kills all of us.

[merrily]

35. Whatever the cause, both Parties participated. Our knee jerk insistence on

pretending otherwise will ensure nothing improves for anyone but the plutocrats.

[azureblue]

46. Bullshit

Go look at the economic indicators beginning with Reagan.What do the downturns all have in common? A Repub President, that's what. Every time an Dem is President, the economy grows. Every time a Gooper is president,the national debt skyrockets, the middle class suffers but the rich get richer. Clinton left office with a budget surplus which Bush squandered within three months of taking office.


Reagan was the starting point for the takeover of America by the rich and big business. Reagan proved to the GOP that they could get away with their crap - scaring voters into voting for them, blatant lying and corruption. When Reagan broke the back of the Air traffic controllers' union, then was the go ahead for more union busting. When the national debt was tripled under Reagan, that was the green flag for the GOP greedies, the war profiteers, the lobbyists and began the movement towards fascism. And when little Bush was installed in office by a corrupt Supreme Court, the course was set.

[merrily]

71. I don't care if he blew up the Capitol building. He's been out of office 27 years.

My claim is not that he was a good President while in office. My claim is about what has or has not happened since he left office in 1988. My claim is that, at some point, it stopped being his fault, all his fault and only his fault. Were people still blaming Hoover and only Hoover in 1960, Eisenhower's last year in office? Anyone who tried that would have made a laughingstock of himself or herself.

We are more of an oligarchy or plutonomy now that we've ever been before. Money and wealth has been moving to the richest faster than ever before. Not a little of that is due to bills for which Clinton (Bill) lobbied.

Stop the learned helplessness. Stop excusing the current calamities based on what a now long dead President did thirty years ago.

[randys1]

51. Wow, Obama doesnt want us to recover

The Obama hate is strong here.

[99th_Monkey]

3. K&R - "Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid were all once labeled socialist and aggressively opposed

by monied interests, who FDR called “economic royalists.” <-- nice term that.

[azmom]

5. But FDR presided in the 40's when

Women and minorities didn't have many rights, so FDR is wrong and you are racist and sexist for even quoting him. Did I get that right?

[PatrickforO]

8. Well, he chose his battles, and did not want to fight that one. That's why we're

so fortunate he was married to Eleanor.

She made sure women's and minority rights at least got a hearing. The first thing she did when the war broke out was pressure FDR to fund child care centers near all the wartime production because she knew the women working in the factories would need childcare. Of course the MINUTE the war ended, the Republicans quashed that, and the meme was that patriotic women were going back to the house so their husbands could have those jobs.

FDR was a great man and a great president, but I don't think he would have been AS great without Eleanor, who was great in her own right. A real hero. Look what she did in the UN.

But yeah, Bernie is the next FDR, and he's one up on the last one because he wants to end racism and promotes social justice.

[99th_Monkey]

10. Besides that FDR was an old white guy too. -nt-

[azmom]

17. Yep!

[merrily]

12. When he took office, the nation was just about belly up. Then there was Hitler.

And the Supreme Court blocking every effort FDR and Congress made to save the country.

[riderinthestorm]

9. K and freaking R!! A must read! nt

[senz]

13. Excellent OP. Absolutely true.

The Reagan Administration -- the individuals who ran this country during Reagan's eight years -- opened the door to a massive, landscape-changing, culture-transforming, deregulation of business, put an end to Johnson's War on Poverty, and set in motion the gradual undoing of the American middle class that was itself an FDR achievement.

By the time Clinton was elected, the presidency was already less powerful than the Reagan/Bush-enabled oligarchy.

Undoing what the Reagan Administration set in motion is the gargantuan task that awaits President Sanders.

If we don't get President Sanders, the reversal will have to wait while the oligarchy cements its power over the world.

An important election indeed.

[DianeK]

16. piss on you, trickle down economy has been proven..twice now..

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 03:55 PM - Edit history (1)

not to work!

[jwirr]

50. Don't quite understand - what economy has been proven

wrong twice?

[mike dub]

18. K and R...

...on the headline alone, and now headed in for a full read.

[Dont call me Shirley]

19. Reagan must have been bestest buds with Louis Powell (the bell ringer of the racist reich).

UNDO THE REAGAN DE-EVOLUTION!!!!!

[WillyT]

20. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[CharlotteVale]

21. K&R

[AzDar]

23. Damned straight.

[zentrum]

24. Yup. Well said.

[moobu2]

26. America has never recovered from Ronald Reagan but

a Bernie Sanders win in the primary would set the good guys back a generation because he can not win the general. He probably wouldn't even win a state.

[artislife]

28. No offense, but we don't believe that scenario at all.

[d_legendary1]

29. Eh? Why's that?

If he wins the nom you wouldn't vote for him? You think America is full of racists, ignorant people? Obama became president twice. I don't see how Sanders loses to any republican nut ball. Hell, O'Mally's more electable than any Republican.

[jeff47]

30. You said the same thing about Obama in the 2008 primary. How'd that turn out?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5230028

You learn to spell "Borrack" Obama's name yet?

[Attorney in Texas]

41. Ouch!

[Attorney in Texas]

38. Head-to-head polling shows Rubio crushing Clinton. I prefer Sanders' chances in November.

[randys1]

53. Nationwide polls of both parties show this?

Crushing?



p.s. if America is this stupid, then the whole planet will suffer and we will deserve the death and destruction that will instantly follow

[bahrbearian]

47. Alrighty Then

moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
35. Borrack is clearly unelectable in the GE
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top

[Hepburn]

31. Boy, do I ever agree with that!

Ronnie Raygun was the beginning of the end of the middle class.

JMHO

[Major Hogwash]

45. Yup, Saint Ronnie could do no wrong, according to many Republicans.

Many of whom also defended Nixon -- even after he died -- saying he had nothing to do with Watergate!!

But, those damned Nixon White House tapes just kept coming out, being released to the public.

[Zorro]

37. Let's not forget the Democratic left enabled Reagan's 1980 election

by attacking Jimmy Carter as "not liberal enough" and promoting Ted Kennedy's candidacy during the primaries.

[colsohlibgal]

39. Ronnie Caused Incalculable Damage

We have a spending problem in some areas, mostly defense, but we have much more of a revenue problem. Under republicans and democrats, from FDR till the B actor high marginal rates were roughly 60 -91 %. Ronnie slashed it in half.

And the Right wants a memorial to him. But then....they've been in bed with worse, their dirty little secret involves Prescott and Poppy Bush, among others, in bed with the Nazis in the 30s and 40s.

We need everyday people to wake up, the Oligarchs are robbing you blind yet get enough of you to vote for them by clever manipulation. Of course the Big D Democratic Party that has grown out of the DLC isn't a while lot better other than on social issues, which can be their cover.

We need Bernie Sanders to maybe be our FDR and talk some sense into the confused non wealthy.

[Attorney in Texas]

40. Sanders is polling higher than any FDR style-Democrat in my lifetime.

[Duckfan]

48. Exact-A-Mundo

Tom Hartmann said this very thing last week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017307836

"How Reaganomics killed the middle Class" This is also an interview with noted economics Professor Richard Wolf. I don't know why no one mentioned Dwight Eisenhower. I thought he pushed/supported "social" programs for the middle class too. At least I seem to remember something like from my education in history.

How tragic it is that this country bought a box of rocks when they put an actor in the White House. Horribly depressing.

[jwirr]

55. When it came to social programs Eisenhower was a mixed

bag. He did add people to Social Security and he helped the Veterans.

But when it came to the small farmers who were being pushed out by the "bigger, better and more" movement he did nothing. He also never looked to see if the other programs dealing with hunger, housing, disability,etc. were working. They were being run by the states and it all depended on what state you lived in. Often states allowed local social workers or others to deny the programs to people they did not think were worthy. You can just imagine what was happening to poc and others.

Eisenhower did not look at that part of social programs at all. In my small community in Iowa poor families in the school district were often given left overs from school lunches because it was the cooks who saw the hunger.

If I am not mistaken it was JFK or LBJ who finally took a look at this and started federalizing the programs.

[Faux pas]

52. Kicketty Kickin'

[deutsey]

54. Kick

[ChiciB1]

64. And LET HIS WORDS Be Heard! UNFORTUNATELY

very few outlets EVEN cared to air his speech or even speak a few words anywhere. It's up to "we the people" HIS SUPPORTERS to keep his message front and center!

MSNBC is now Scarborough World and forget all the others, they won't even acknowledge him at all. Or Martin O'Malley for that matter.

OR our very OWN DEMOCRATIC PARTY! So glad I'm able to watch FSTV and alternative channels.

[abakan]

65. In my view

Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush2 have all been disasters for this country. some more egregious than others but all unhealthy for this country. Not a one of them, to the man, gave a damn about the little guy. I'm not adding Obama to this list because I think the jury is still out on him.