OK then. A Message to Hillary Supporters...

[sibelian]

I have say I admire your fortitude. It's a thankless task.

Her being female doesn't seem to count for anything, her being likely to win according to polls doesn't seem to count for anything, her campaign strategy doesn't seem to garner her any respect, her clothing doesn't register with anyone who isn't particularly interested in women's clothing, people talk about her e-mails, people talk about her hawkish foreign policy, people talk about everything about her except how awesome she is.

I have to reiterate the sentiments of an earlier post on this board, it's not hate. Nobody could hate someone that banal.

And it is her BANALITY that turns people off.

She's a gamer, not a leader.

It's not just her support that's a mile wide and an inch deep, it's her entire policy platform.

She is the most beautiful embodiment POSSIBLE of everything about American politics that everyone's fed up with. She's evasive, she's poised, she's graceful, she's elegant, she always seems to think she knows better then everyone else without really saying why... She's a lean, mean fighting machine. I don't doubt that.

But that's not the solution, that's the problem.

Victories are only important if they gain something for the victorious beyind the idea of the victory itself. There's no point winning an election with a candidate that can't be relied on to what's right over what wins.

ANYTHING can "WIN". That's not the point. Not so long ago Bush won. Shouldwe all have voted for him because he was likely to win?

So, your task isn't what you think it is. There's no point pissing the rest of us off. WE don't care. Why would we vote for someone on the grounds that you have issues with us?

It's Clinton herself that we take issue with, not your perception of us. You can think what you like about us, that's not going to tick the box. Why would anyone go into a voting booth and think "Oh dear, I annoyed someone on DU, I'd better vote for Hillary". Nobody's going to do that, are they?

Make your case. She must bring something of value to people, not politics. Politics does what it likes - that we can all see.

There's no point treating the entire population of the United States as lumps of Play-Doh that get all their ideas about politics from politicians. They don't.

[leftofcool]

1. Oh lookie! It's another anti-Hillary post.

Why, we haven't seen one of these in about 30 minutes!

[still_one]

2. More like 30 seconds

[AlbertCat]

343. More like 30 seconds

Which should tell you something....

About Clinton, not the people who disagree with you.

Which is exactly what this thread is about.


"Look...another criticism!".... but "crickets" about what it actually says.

[Bubzer]

370. +1

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

386. "About Clinton, not the people who disagree with you."

Really? You felt the same way about the people in the 90's who couldn't stop bashing her?

[AlbertCat]

392. in the 90's who couldn't stop bashing her?

Uh... accusing her of putting crack pipes on the WH Christmas tree is not the same as questioning her actual policies, record, and statements.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

394. You must have missed a federal prosecutor on a witch hunt

His name was Ken Starr.

Backed up by Rush, Hannity, numerous Republican senators and congress idiots, all screaming Vince Foster, Whitewater, the White House travel office, etc....

Please.....

[AlbertCat]

396. His name was Ken Starr.

That was about Hillary???

[abakan]

404. OMG

Hillary got a blow job? She should be elected for that!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

416. LOL

Should have realized after the first post you weren't serious.

Have a nice day, "Ken".

[AlbertCat]

420. I was very serious.

Whitewater was about both Bill & Hillary. And it STILL wasn't about her record or statements as an elected official.

[still_one]

419. No, it is just another slur against Clinton supporters, and it really is tiresome.

In general I try to stay away from the cesspool that is General Discussion : Primaries

I am convinced, my avoidance is well placed.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Huddle at Hillary Cave NOW NOW NOW

This must not stand!

Regards,

TWM

[murielm99]

16. You certainly do spend a lot of time worrying about that website.

It must have struck a nerve with you.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. First site I open up each morning

"Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day."
- Mark Twain

[ornotna]

93. This thread was worth opening just to read this

Thanks for the laugh.

[bvf]

113. !

Dubious attribution aside, great advice!

[beam me up scottie]

153. LMAO!

Perfect!

[99th_Monkey]

167. +100 ..... LMAO -nt-

[Android3.14]

191. Android guffaws and slams his head on his desk

Thanks.

[Fuddnik]

229. Just make sure it's not one of those Bofu toads or frogs or whatever.

My dogs keep trying to get those poisonous fuckers. Believe me, biting it ain't the worst thing that can happen.

[Enthusiast]

289. What is the worst thing?

[Enthusiast]

288. I'm sure glad

you're on our side.

[BlueMTexpat]

293. Interestingly,

the only site that I have ever been blocked from on DU is the BS group.

I have never posted anything anti-Bernie. To the contrary.

I merely asked that BS supporters stop gratuitously dissing Hillary. Politely.

And for that, I was blocked. Go figure.

I'm not losing any sleep over it though.

[AlbertCat]

345. the only site that I have ever been blocked from on DU is the BS group.

So?

I got banned months ago from the Clinton group instantly for merely posting a light hearted JOKE! A very light hearted one.

[BeanMusical]

353. Lol for the vid!

[LiberalLovinLug]

385. I was banned instantly for my first post of the slightest criticism as well from HC group

lol, yes thanks for the laugh!

Exchange "Brittany" for "Hillary" and it makes sense for DU

[AlbertCat]

391. Exchange "Brittany" for "Hillary" and it makes sense for DU

I didn't even do that! Just posted it when the GOP was going after her, as they have made a career of, and the Group was all. "I hope she's alright?". It was a joke about the posters all worried about the Mighty Hill! Not even a dig at Hillary. A compliment really... she can take it. Her supporters...er... not so much.

[Plucketeer]

403. Same thing happened to me too

Then I got alerted on the other day because of someone's WELL STRETCHED interpretation of an innocent remark I made. They're looking for ANY excuse to mute anything what ain't flattering to their cannedidate.

[BlueMTexpat]

423. If a polite request to stop

repeating GOPer talking points against one of our Dem candidates is enough to cause a banning, I frankly do not even WANT to be "allowed" in that candidate's group.

As I noted, I'm not losing sleep over it.

[imthevicar]

356. The Only site I've been blockes is

the HRC group. But all I posted were verifiable facts.

[BeanMusical]

365. They are allergic to facts.

[sabrina 1]

393. Did you got to the Hillary Group and ask them politely to stop dissing Sanders?

They have a long, long list of blocked people.

Groups do that, that's the purpose of groups so that they can be free to focus on what they are all about without what happens on the rest of the forum.

Next time you want to talk to Bernie supporters about how awful they are, do it here or in GD.

[BlueMTexpat]

422. I was hardly telling

Bernie supporters how awful they are, LOL.

That is projection from YOU. And from the host(s) who blocked me.

[Buzz Clik]

312. That is quite clever, Manny. And you certainly serve up more than your share of frogs.

[MannyGoldstein]

319. well, I feel left out.

Seems like everyone else here gets mentioned on Hillary Cave, but I never see my name mentioned. Of course I'm going to act out to get attention.

[Major Hogwash]

382. Well, if it makes you feel any better . . .

. . . there was a thread where they named you as the 2nd biggest liar on the internet.
So, just keep trying, maybe later on they'll come to their senses and realize that you're worthy of being Numero Uno.

I'm just kidding, for crying out loud.


<----- The official Hillary "She just said what?!" Clinton emoticon.

[Amimnoch]

334. ROFLMAO.

Opposite sides of the room, but that's still some funny shit right there.

[angrychair]

55. Its no "obsession"

Its a shocking phenomenon but not an "obsession". When the very same people that have strutted around here with a self-righteous arrogance, a hubris, I only have seen in one other group. While on this site, without the least bit of irony or shame, label us petty. Label us narrow minded. Label us prideful. Label us as not understanding race and women issues.
While doing all these things, you go to another site, that many of us have seen entries and screenshots from at this point, calling us "latte drinking white trash" and "trailer trash" and saying "Bernie supporters are dumb as bricks and twice as thick" and terms like "hippy punching", "berniebot" and "berniebro" whatever the hell that is, every description is vile and disrespectful. I have barely skimmed the scum from the top of the barrel. The discussions and comments were comments that I have never seen from fellow Democrats and have had a lasting impact on my opinion of followers of your candidate.
While I am sure that some Sanders supporters here have done or said things that was rude and crass, based on what I have seen from that site, those failings are nothing in comparison.
At the very least you have no right or reason to the high ground and or the attitude you carry with you on this site and should well be ashamed of your conduct (sorry, the "Bernie bros" or whatever smear you try to use, started it is a child's reason, not an adult's reason).

[beam me up scottie]

155. The owner of that website called Bernie supporters "ignorant white trailer trash".

They brag about "prodding" DUers into hides and they're upset because they're getting called out on it here?

Hypocrites.

[potone]

279. What are you referring to?

I keep seeing references to a Hillary cave. What website is that?

[beam me up scottie]

280. It's just like the Conservative Cave but was created by Hillary supporters.

They target Bernie supporters on DU for sport, here's a thread that will give you some insight:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251623308

And here's a good post with links to screenshots:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=647936

[murielm99]

223. It's backlash after the way Hillary supporters have been treated here.

You reap what you sow.

[rhett o rick]

232. The "you started it" meme. And the "You reap what you sow" is projection.

What are you guys "sowing" at the cave. Something that can't be discussed in the Hillary Group. Reminds me of Jr High.

[AgingAmerican]

251. That's the pathetic excuse they made up AFTER they got caught

...with their pants down.

[murielm99]

252. Got caught?

WTF is that supposed to mean. The website is no secret.

Got caught? As if Hillary supporters are in some way children? The Bernie supporters are the ones acting like junior high bullies. The website gives them a taste of their own medicine.

I don't even have a membership there. I have been invited, but I have not gone yet.

I do think it is funny the way all the Bernie Bullies are reacting to it.

[AgingAmerican]

253. They got caught with their pants down

For all to see, before they blocked everything. YOu should have been there. It was comedy gold. They ruined their own reputations.

[murielm99]

254. I knew it was there.

And the only comedy gold was the open-mouthed surprise coming from the bernistas.

Good-bye.

[AgingAmerican]

255. Pure comedy gold

Pants down. Boo! hoo!

[sabrina 1]

398. Every cloud has a silver lining though. What that site did was to destroy completely

any credibility its members may have had and NOTHING or NO ONE could have convinced people that they lacked those creds to begin with, better than the construction of that awful place.

And for the record, I always consider the source regarding attempts to insult me or people I care about. Sometimes, depending on the source, it's actually a compliment. You can tell as much about a person by their enemies as by their friends.

Bernie and his supporters are in great company wrt to both friends and enemies!

[Buzz Clik]

62. Manny, manny, manny.

You of all people are in no position to attempt some sort of ridicule about huddling.

[MannyGoldstein]

66. Jeez, you people

First it's a never-ending catterwaul about my voting for Reagan in 1980. Now my playing football in school is relevant... how?

[Buzz Clik]

70. Go figure.

[rhett o rick]

233. I think that comment will move you up to number one on the hit list. It was WillyT

I heard. They got to cross off Cathrena and Lo0nix from their list. Did some grave dancing, and cali has been temporarily silenced. Not sure what happened to woo me.

Your days are numbered.

[Scootaloo]

5. In response to another right-wing yowling about the evil of bernie and his supporters

I suggest that if you can't take it, don't try to dish it out.

[George II]

8. Yep, and they really like telling us what to do, too.

[Fuddnik]

230. some would rather tell you where to go.

Me? I have way too much class for that.

[sibelian]

239. Goad away, dear.

Goad away.

[BeanMusical]

246. These pretzels are making me thirsty!

[yuiyoshida]

267. omg...and here I already

got into the Christmas cookies with Sprinkles... I guess the Tea I have will wash it down...Too much sugar! Ho Ho Ho!

[BeanMusical]

270. Mmmm... Cookies with Sprinkles...

[yuiyoshida]

271. They are the Vanilla kind with icing and sprinkles

[BeanMusical]

273. Look delicious.

[yuiyoshida]

274. yup...Lookie!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027373604

[BeanMusical]

276. I voted: Did you save some for us?

[yuiyoshida]

277. Always!!

I am no Buta (piggy)

[blackspade]

355. Now my teeth hurt.

[AlbertCat]

347. they really like telling us what to do, too.

Still annoyed that most people on this site are for Sanders?

[randys1]

87. The agenda to destroy Hillary and install a republican in the WH seems to have legs around here.

[AgingAmerican]

262. It's a conspiracy!

[Warren DeMontague]

284. yes, a nefarious plot known as "a primary"

[RiverLover]

285. The agenda to continue destroying the Democratic Party

with pro-business hawkish conservative/rethug values, which began with Clinton1, has demonstrably long powerful spiderlike legs. If we don't cut them off now, we're done.

There is a sense of urgency here to protect true Democratic values & to protect against what could be done in the near future in the name of our party.

[randys1]

321. If you have any respect for any of that, you dont go out of your way to

create a no win situation for the party regardless of how far right it has strayed.

Given the alternative is not far right, but completely insane.

None of this has anything to do with anything other than making sure the insane assholes dont take over the government.

Vote and campaign for Bernie, fine, I am also. But not at the expense of the other candidate who may be the nominee.

If the big picture gets in the way of your personal needs, opinions, attitudes, that is unfortunate. I refuse, however, to let my personal financial needs cloud my judgment given there is much more at stake.

[RiverLover]

322. My finances are fine, thank you.

I put myself through college (when it was still somewhat affordable) and have a strong work ethic. I've never taken one penny from govt assistance programs of any kind...Luckily, I was raised in a good environment. Many aren't. Luckily I am for now healthy and able to work. Many aren't through no fault of their own.....I could get into a car accident today though & that could change in an instant. Any of us could. I'm approaching 50 & if I were to lose my current job, I'd most likely be up a creek. Many older Americans are. I haven't had to use my pathetic health insurance yet, but if I had to spend the amount of my deductible, it would be hard on me...

One thing I had always been proud of as a Democrat, is our ability to empathize with others. Rethugs are incapable of that.

Many people here on DU who claim very loudly to be Democrats, have no empathy & often sound just like rethugs. Its depressing....

ETA-- A rethug will eventually be in the WH again. This is reality. But with HRC as our nom, a rethug will be in the WH no matter the outcome of the election. She has already stated she'll be working with the republicans to "get things done", so what is the point.

Hillary Clinton says if she were to become president, she'd strive to fuse red and blue America into "a nice warm purple space where we're trying to solve problems."

She obviously doesn't believe they're all that crazy.

[randys1]

325. Who are you talking about?

Who here claims to be a liberal but then shows no empathy?

If you cant give names, at least give me a clue as to which group you mean.

[RiverLover]

328. Sure, I'll name names.

[randys1]

346. Not even the group? Then there is no way to respond.

You know what worries me as a Bernie supporter?

The commonality i see between certain folks around here and out there (in general) with the teaparty.

[RiverLover]

348. Its easier than thinking about what we're saying

to simply compare us to teabaggers.

But while I am against everything the tea party stands for, I do admire the power they yield now within the GOP.

We're only trying to bring Democrats to actually being Democrats. FDR Dems....I think it'd be great if we could be that successful.

It'd be great for the country, more importantly.

[gordyfl]

351. Enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders is Real

"Many people here on DU who claim very loudly to be Democrats, have no empathy..."

People are sick and tired of establishment politics. They're fed up. Enough is Enough.

There's no question, that the enthusiasm and support for Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders' insurgent presidential campaign is real.

Bernie Sanders stands up for what's just and right. He's for the Democratic ideals of equality for all people and for the rich not being able to buy elections.

The Vermont senator has given voice to the frustration and anger.

Bernie's looking pretty good. He's the only one who doesn't cater to corporations. The policies that he supports have more to do with people's needs.

The most common adjectives used to describe Mrs Clinton, on the other hand, were "calculating," "cautious" and "corporate".

[Hissyspit]

104. Would be nice if she was the kind of candidate all progressive Democrats could get behind.

Then these kind of posts would be much less rare.

[DFW]

134. Would be nice if we had a candidate all Democrats-period-could get behind.

Unfortunately, we don't have one, which is why we have OPs like this one and all the angry posts to it, which were about as surprising as the sun setting in the west.

Toss a match into a gas tank, and in all likelihood, the result will NOT be hot chocolate.

[BeanMusical]

258. +1 Totally agree.

[SCantiGOP]

119. And one of the most patronizing posts I've ever seen

People don't like being lectured to. It doesn't help you make your case and it probably hurts your cause.

[99th_Monkey]

170. Your "concern" about Bernie's cause is duly noted. nt

[SCantiGOP]

425. Your story is confirmed

In the grocery store, right next to the National Enquirer, The Globe headline said that, after 52 years, it was disclosed that Nixon ordered the JFK assassination. I can't believe I ever doubted it.

[sibelian]

240. Awwwwwwwwww. Oh, dear.

Are you feeling a little bit patronised?

[NotHardly]

124. Republicans in disquise

... they eat their own too.

[RiverLover]

286. +1 /nt

[sibelian]

238. Welll, this is GD:P where people talk about the candidates...

Sooooo...

[lewebley3]

379. This post above is just another Hillary attack: Fact free post

[lewebley3]

384. Yes, you are right these attacks on Hillary are very repetive and pointless

[Historic NY]

4. Gamer ok thats new....

not a leader she ran a government agency of 70000 employees.

Next..........

[jeff47]

9. You don't have to be a leader to run a government agency.

You have to be a competent administrator. Those are not always leaders.

[Historic NY]

27. Well this is what her boss said about her.......

https://www.facebook.com/bluenationreview/videos/422311641284050/

[ish of the hammer]

52. really don't care what one corporatist says about another.

tyvm

[stevenleser]

89. More Bernie supporters should come right out and say how they feel about Obama.

It would help sort out the primary race real quickly.

[JonLeibowitz]

96. I think Obama has been a fine president

I am eager to see Bernie build on that and accomplish a more progressive legislative and executive agenda.

[ish of the hammer]

101. my wife describes shoes as "fine"

his first two years were an embarrassment.
11 dimensional chess!

[Historic NY]

107. He won't he's running away from Obama..........

that' s why he's not making any traction and won't . His numbers are dismal to say the least.


Bernie Sanders acknowledged on Saturday that he'd lose the Democratic primary to Hillary Rodham Clinton if the election were held now.

"We started way, way, way down," the Vermont senator told reporters while campaigning in North Charleston, South Carolina. "I think you're going to see us picking up a lot of steam here in South Carolina. ... I will not deny, if the election were held today, we would lose."

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/11/21/sanders-allows-hed-lose-democratic-primary-if-held-today

Glad to see he's finally accepting reality....

[JonLeibowitz]

111. No shit.

A poll tells you what would happen today. That is tautological. That is why you run a campaign.

[Historic NY]

117. Tomorrow more of the same porridge.

[The Wielding Truth]

110. Bernie has the right message for me right now, too.

I would love to see citizens united erased. I hope that Hill will take care of that. Will she fight to end corporate control of our democracy? I hope so. Till I an feel confident she will I will put my eggs in the Sanders basket.

[LiberalArkie]

123. I think Bernie would have been a lot better president if had not had Rahm

as COS and had a person more in line with his thinking. I think Rahm led Obama down the wrong path and you can see the difference after he left.

[JonLeibowitz]

132. I just dreamt that your title written in the future and got tangled in the wires.

[ish of the hammer]

97. really, you think.

You like TPP?
You like fracking?
you like special forces in the mid east?
defend it if you want. I want to see something better.
thanks for you concern.

[stevenleser]

99. I said exactly what I think. Please proceed. nt

[SwampG8r]

308. Why listen?

You will sing a different tune when the wind shifts

[Historic NY]

102. Exactly please proceed ....

[Chef Eric]

135. O.K.

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 01:00 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't regret having voted for him twice, but for the most part, I've been disappointed in what I've seen. I was absolutely disgusted that he chose the likes of Simpson and Bowles to lead a commission to deal with "fiscal responsibility," when anybody with the slightest bit of sense knows that it has been our out-of-control military spending that has thrown our budget out of whack. I also think that what has happened to our public schools under Obama's watch (specifically, nationalized testing) is a disgrace. On the other hand, I have been satisfied with the ACA, having benefited from it personally, although, like many others, I would much prefer a single payer system, which is one of the many reasons that I support Sanders.

Now let me change the subject. I find it baffling that you apparently want to use Sanders supporters' feelings about Obama as some sort of "test" upon which we may be judged. Obama is not running for president. Clinton and Sanders are. Can we please focus on Clinton and Sanders, and their positions on the issues? Please?

[stevenleser]

142. Nope, you can't lay that on me, that was discussed by two prior posters in the thread.

Take it up with them first.

"I find it baffling that you apparently want to use Sanders supporters' feelings about Obama as some sort of "test" upon which we may be judged."

[cui bono]

215. What a reasonable request.

We can't have that on DU!

[BootinUp]

207. Yep.

[cui bono]

214. More Hillary supporters should come right out and say how they FELT about Hillary

when she ran against Obama.

That's when things really get interesting. And I'm not only talking about you.

[BeanMusical]

259. +1000

[Douglas Carpenter]

218. I kind of like him and think that considering the political atmosphere of America these day

he's been a pretty good President.

But Social-Democracy is the last and best hope for our country and mankind. Neither President Obama or Secretary Clinton are Social Democrats. Bernie is. Now that there is a possibility of electing a Social Democrat to the White House and even a stronger possibility of putting Social Democracy or at least the New Deal back into the mainstream of political discussion it is finally time to move on this issue. This has not been much a possibility for a long, long time.

It would give me nightmares to imagine a future America and world without Social-Democracy - the only system that really works.

[BeanMusical]

260. He was a far better choice than Hillary.

A hot national political pundit was saying something similar with harsher words back in 2008.

[SwampG8r]

311. I remember that

He said she was unfit for the office

[BeanMusical]

358. Absolutely, and other things too:

One of the things you would expect of someone who really has good experience and judgment is that they can articulate a basic set of principles and positions on issues that they can run on and defend and that stay relatively static. I'm not saying you have to stick to them in the face of overwhelming evidence that one of your positions has been proven to be wrong, like George W. Bush does, even someone who has good experience and judgment occasionally changes their mind. That is not what we have with Hillary. Hillary gives a different opinion on the same subjects every couple of weeks depending on her audience and what she thinks it will net her. As evidence of this is now coming out and is going to be presented to the American people in the starkest terms, how can one be expected to trust her to do anything that she says she is going to do? How can one really know what she believes or intends to do about anything? The only things Hillary's experience seems to be good for is perfecting how to talk out of both sides of her mouth, engaging in the politics of personal destruction and other aspects of her ruthless pursuit of power that remind one of what a Karl Rove might do. That kind of person ought not to be the Democratic nominee.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080320_hillary_clinton_s_re.htm

And it's still true today.

[Historic NY]

100. Then why are you here..............

apparently you don't support Democrats.......

[ish of the hammer]

106. i like being here.

Do you have to take a blood oath?

[Historic NY]

109. No but I suggest reading the TOS .

[ish of the hammer]

128. Thanks for your suggestion.

I have one for you too.

[Historic NY]

136. Right back at you...

don't eat too much turkey.

[ish of the hammer]

177. Hah! good one

[artislife]

43. Yeah, lets run a Corporatist.

Oh, that is what they are saying.


Basic difference between supporters.

[redstateblues]

114. Bringing back the old "corporatist" meme

that has helped Bernie plateau at 30% with his "one note Johnny" campaign. The only place that works is in the DU bubble where bernie supporters rule 85%-15%. I also like the scary "third wayer". "neo liberal" is a good one. My favorite is DINO which can cut either way- like for our friends that claim to be Democrats but vote for people like Nader or other marginal third parties candidates.

[artislife]

160. It is the truth, as I see it. nt

[Phlem]

188. This reply only proves that you haven't been paying attention.

Or are in complete denial of the truth.

Yeay! Go Dems! We can repeat the midterms again!!!!!

jesus fucking christ.

[stillwaiting]

295. You clearly have no idea what has happened within the Democratic Party.

They have openly stated what their intentions were for the Democratic Party before they achieved them.

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a conspiracy fact. They conspired to make the Democratic Party more receptive to Wall Street and the big business community, and they did just that. Average Americans got left behind in the process.

Also, learn what neo-liberalism is before you make fun of those of us that correctly call most elected Democrats by that name. They empower neo-liberal policies at home and throughout the world.

[redstateblues]

421. So in other words

When widely respected elected Democratic officials like Sherrod Brown or Elijah Cummings support Clinton they become aligned with the shadowy neo liberal corporatist third way factual conspiracy? I don't buy your broad brush approach. So many straw men so little time. The idea that Clinton is no better than the Republicans is a ridiculous meme that has taken hold on DU

[FlatBaroque]

316. You are hilarious

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Her agency is bigger than the city the Vermont independent was the mayor of...

I grew up in a working class suburb of FL that had twice the population of Burlington. The gentleman who became its first mayor after it incorporated was my postman.

[George II]

413. The State Department also has several hundred offices and facilities around the world.

[Phlem]

13. Well then, based off that logic only CEO's

qualify to be president?

What a load.

[George II]

56. That's about one third of the number of people who voted for Sanders for "Senator"

[beerandjesus]

409. "Senator", that's rich!

[MissDeeds]

69. Bush ran a government of far more employees

Your point?

[Logical]

418. So to you carly fiorina is a huge leader??? LOL, think before posting! nt

[72DejaVu]

6. Thank you for your concern

But, actually, it doesn't take all that much fortitude to be on the side that's ahead in the polls by more than 20 points.

[Laser102]

46. Spot on. Makes no sense to get worked up when we know she's going to win.

[Rose Siding]

227. And that's sure got them worked up!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Another attack on Hillary Clinton and her supporters (SIGH) Redux

She is eminently qualified to be president of the United States by dint of experience, temperament, and record of achievement.

-First Lady of Arkansas
-First Lady Of the United States
-Two term senator from one of the most populous and most heterogeneous states in the nation
-Secretary of State

She has offered detailed positions for this campaign on

-criminal justice reform
-immigration reform
-climate change
-financial reform
-combating terrorism
-gun control
-tax relief and added Social Security benefits for caregivers

She and her husband have worked tirelessly for the Democratic party since they were wet behind the ears field organizers for George McGovern in 1972 registering Mexicans in southwest Texas to vote.


See, I was able to make my case without denigrating Senator Sanders or the other members of our community.

[murielm99]

15. Thank you for making the case.

You or someone else will have to do it again in another hour or so. They just don't read.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. If someone doesn't like her it is his or her prerogative.

But it is disingenuous to argue she is without experience, accomplishments, and proposals.

[Dustlawyer]

137. Most of us Bernie supporters don't have an issue with her experience.

Our issue is that she will accomplish everything her Donors set out for her to do. Her supporters believe differently, I respect that.

Hillary is good at playing this game, and up til now that's how all politicians played it. They have been dependent on that money to get and stay in office. Bernie is fighting to end this practice and institute Publicly Funded Elections. With the Bully Pulpit he just might be able to pull it and much more off, who knows. Bernie's toughest test is actually beating Hillary, in my opinion. Hillary is a juggernaut, no doubt, but I think she can be defeated. I certainly hope so.

[JDPriestly]

47. Problem is, Bernie is more qualified.

Compare the understanding and articulate responses of Bernie supporters to the non-answers of most of the Hillary supporters on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251832654

Hillary's support is weak. Bernie supporters are excited about how well their candidate does when compared to Hillary. Hillary supporters-- very unenthusiastic, short and not much detail.

Bernie has the support. People like what Bernie has to say.

Hillary -- silent embarrassment. That's where her supporters are when it comes to talking about her policy stances.

Bernie is the better qualified. He has the best platform and is the strongest candidate, and even Hillary supporters know this.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. I outlined my reasons for supporting Hillary Clinton.

I outlined my reasons for supporting Hillary Clinton.

Bernie is the better qualified. He has the best platform and is the strongest candidate, and even Hillary supporters know this

And for you to tell me what I believe is the height of arrogance and condescension, even for you.

[ish of the hammer]

61. the Clintons are corporatists

owned by Wall St (but,but,but 9/11 !! ), beholden to the Banks.
and tell me again what they are selling to earn that 100 million $.

I would vote for Philo P. Fudpucker before I ever vote for a Clinton.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I couldn't care less who you would vote for, really...

"...I would vote for Philo P. Fudpucker before I ever vote for a Clinton..."
-ish of the hammer

I couldn't care less who you would vote for, really...

[Ineeda]

112. So if Hillary is the (D) nominee you would instead vote for Trump? Carson? Hmmm. n/t

[ish of the hammer]

182. I have voted once since I've been of age to vote.

My opinion is that politicians are mostly shitbirds. I'll vote for Sanders cause he speaks for me (enough, anyway). I don't feel the burning nneeeedd to vote otherwise.
I don't think I was old enough to vote for H. Humphrey.

[Ineeda]

213. Pfft. So don't complain. Not voting guarantees your dissatisfaction. n/t

[ish of the hammer]

236. There is very little to choose between corporate dems and repubs.

A statement of fact is not a complaint.

[Ineeda]

323. But a there's HUGE difference between them

when it comes to things like gender equality, women's health (and right-to-choose), separation of church and state, and about a million other issues that demand logic and/or compassion. The repugs are on the wrong side on every one of those things. So when you choose not to vote, you are actually choosing the wrong side along with them. We are all "cafeteria Democrats" but we have to see the big picture and weigh the good against the bad. The repugs are always bad, always wrong. If you can name just one issue the rethugs are right on, I might be able to respect your position.

[1StrongBlackMan]

335. And a HUGE difference for every demographic that is not ...

white, male and Christian. That is/should always be a consideration when responding to that kind of response/post ... there is no difference because they are unaffected BY the clear differences.

[Ineeda]

360. And straight.

You're right. BTW -- I'm white, female, agnostic, straight and over 65.

[1StrongBlackMan]

361. Yes ... And straight. My brain was certain my fingers typed that ...

I guess not. Thanks for the catch.

[ish of the hammer]

350. Corporate dems need to dragged along all those issues you find important.

A progressive (a true progressive, not a progmoderate) will lead on those issues that you seem to find important. A corporate dem gives you TPP, endless resource wars, $12 instead of $15 minimum wage and no single payer.
This is a dem site, so I won't tell you what I think of DWS, the DNC, and all the millionaire dem representatives/senators in our
benighted government.

Since the environment was not specifically mentioned by you, I will only say that environmental issues are our most important challenge. Incrementalism will not work.

Keep your respect, why would you vote for a corporate dem in the PRIMARY !?!?!

[Ineeda]

359. My points:

Primaries are very different from general elections. However, you said you would NEVER vote for Hillary. Therefore you invite the lunatics into the White House and kiss their feet. I will vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is. I agree with you about the environment - I just didn't list every single issue that's crucial. We know where the rethugs stand on all of them. BTW - I'm still waiting for one -- just one -- issue the rethugs are on the right side of. I agree with you about DWS and the DNC, but until the alternative is significantly better, my affiliation is with Democrats. Do you think any one of the loony lineup for the RNC slot would support ANY of the solutions to the vast number of problems a Democrat might at least attempt to remedy?

[ish of the hammer]

390. I don't think you understand where I am coming from. So I will try to explain.

Corporate dems are to the left of repubs. But the place where politicians have to be to get my vote, either in the primary OR the general is a lot more left than almost any politician out there. Sanders just barely registers as vote worthy.
We are living in a fascist country. You may not recognize it, but over the past 50 years, the United States has slipped over the cliff. We just haven't hit bottom yet.
So Clinton will tinker around the edges - good for her. Sanders will attempt a more meaningful change and that is what I am going for. It is the primary. It is the PRIMARY and I don't have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. and in case you haven't noticed Sanders beats the repubs in the polls, so I still don't have to choose the lesser of 2 evils unless, of course, you manage to get Clinton into
the general. the Clintons are tainted beyond redemption. fuck them - they are not the droids you are looking for.
how sure are you that your vote will be tallied as you intended?

[Ineeda]

397. I totally get "where you're coming from", I just don't agree with your fuck-'em-all attitude.

I'm not an idiot, despite your implication. We can try to ensure that our votes actually count, but remembering history, there's no way right now to guarantee the integrity of the machinery/intent/process. But not voting doesn't help, does it? Do you really think the rethugs would ever try to fix the voting system? When you say that "I" will get Clinton into the general, you're barking up the wrong tree pal. And I will reemphasize (I won't respond about this again because you refuse to acknowledge the big picture) that each and every rethug is a gazillion times worse than each and every Dem, and that certainly includes HRC. If you want to say fuck you to any Dem candidate in the general, you're as bad as the rethugs. They are, each and every one, evil and downright dangerous.

[ish of the hammer]

401. so vote for Sanders in the primary. Our problem is solved!

[ish of the hammer]

402. If you are not sure that your vote is properly tallied, then when you vote, you are legitimizing

whatever process is in place by your act of voting. Stalin had 100% of the vote.
in other words, voting only means something if there is a real choice.
You see a difference between the Clintons and any repub and I agree. However, it's not enough of a difference for me and certainly not in the PRIMARY.
thanks for your concern and have a nice day.

[randys1]

88. Attack of the democratic party, I think. I think I will take it that way from now on

[demwing]

11. Kicking

because you seem to have an insight into exactly what I'm thinking.

thank you for putting it to paper...

[Thinkingabout]

12. I like her position in the issues important to me, I have researched the candidates and she is on

The same side of the issues I stand. I also know she has experience in foreign affairs, is smart, is willing to continue to work for the good of the US. I did not arrive at my supports. of supporting Hillary because she is a female as some have stated is the reason she is getting support.

I also have looked at the positions Sanders has taken on the issues and I don't agree with them. One in particular is on gun issues, he lost lots of room on that one. He is also proposing an income tax to provide health insurance to everyone and I don't want to pay a tax for health insurance to the able bodied who for whatever reason does not desire to have wages at any level. He said he was going to tax the wealthy and out comes the income tax.

[JonLeibowitz]

33. .

"I don't want to pay a tax for health insurance to the able bodied who for whatever reason does not desire to have wages at any level."

What a very right-wing talking point.

[Thinkingabout]

37. Show me a link to your claim.

Are you a Democrat?

[JonLeibowitz]

39. I am a registered democrat.

Not wanting to tax for social programs for those who are poor? A classic RW talking point; hardly needs a link.

[Thinkingabout]

45. Need the link. BTW, I am a lifelong Democrat and will be for the rest of my life.

Your Sean Hannity thinking will not change my mind, he loves to degrade others, it is like water on a ducks back, just like Hillary is Teflon coated to the RW talking points. Provide a link.

[JonLeibowitz]

48. .

“There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. There are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it, that that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. These are people who pay no income tax. My job is is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”
-- Mitt Romney

[Thinkingabout]

54. Romney quote, as in President Romney. is that one your best?

Still have not convinced I need more taxes taken from low wages is what I need, I need a wage increase. Others needs to work for wages to help share in the covering of health care. Damn, I may or may not get a raise but will lose some more of my take home pay, hell no. You can donate extra money to provide their health care, now that sounds like a winning strategy.

[JonLeibowitz]

58. You asked for a quote or a link showing it was a RW talking point. Matters not if he was elected.

I kindly provided one. You are very welcome.

[Thinkingabout]

63. I saw a quote, not a link.

[JonLeibowitz]

71. Well, in case you have amnesia from 2012 and aren't just being overly snarky

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/leaked-videos-show-romney-dismissing-obama-supporters-as-entitled-victims/2012/09/17/5d49ca96-0113-11e2-b260-32f4a8db9b7e_story.html?hpid=z2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney_presidential_campaign,_2012#47.25_comment

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/romney-secret-video-marc-leder-sex-parties

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/romney-faults-those-dependent-on-government/

[Thinkingabout]

105. Actually I went to the links and did not see anything about increasing the income taxes on low wage

Earners, I did see where Romney wanted to cut taxes for the wealthy. So I am not giving RW talking points with the links you provided. Like I said like water on a ducks back your water has run off. Does it make you feel better to say I give RW talking points? Has your comments made me change my mind about getting a wage cut, no.

[RichVRichV]

86. Link

link

[angrychair]

83. You complain about a small tax

That will be on everyone. In turn, we would have universal healthcare. No more half-ass employer plans. Companies don't have to maintain healthcare plans and would save billions across the board. Would free up a lot of capital, some could potentially go to raise wages.

Not to mention that if you think that your candidate is going to get tax cuts on lower and middle class and tax increases on upper income classes without huge concessions to elimenating or decreasing the social safety net that millions depend on, you are lying to yourself. At least Brenie's proposal pays for itself and then some.

[JDPriestly]

72. Everyone should have health insurance.

Our health insurance costs twice what health insurance costs in other countries with single payer on average.

That's comparing the per capita costs.

http://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0006_health-care-oecd

Pete Peterson's group. Hillary loves it.

Hospitals are required to treat anyone who comes into their emergency room. Whether you like it or not, the cost of treating the indigent, whether they are poor because they cannot find work, because they are addicted, because they earn a low wage, because they are going through a divorce or are ill or whatever, is added to the cost of the hospital bills of all of us. And I mean all of us. The insurance companies pay those bills that include those costs. So you and I pay when we pay for our insurance, the cost of medical care -- the most expensive, least inefficiently provided medical care, for those who do not have health insurance for whatever reason.

I lived in Europe. I loved single payer insurance. It makes sense. The choice of doctors is much better than here because virtually all doctors are on your plan. If you go to another state or another city, you don't have to ask your insurance company to OK your treatment or maybe pay a premium for that treatment.

Deductibles will be lower. Care will be better organized and more accessible.

The main reason people are skeptical about single payer health insurance is that they have never enjoyed it- - not for any length of time.

Single payer insurance is cheaper and better than our for-profit insurance.

Anyone who hates taxes so much that they would rather pay a for-profit company a HIGHER INSURANCE PREMIUM than pay a lower insurance premium in the form of a tax is short and simple, a REPUBLICAN.

People who don't want single payer must hate Social Security because we pay a tax and if we earn the maximum income and pay the maximum tax, then we pay for the retirement benefits of many who earn very little or may have worked fewer years than we did.

There are Democrats and then there are Republicans.

Republicans would rather pay twice as much for for-profit insurance than pay half as much for single payer. That's almost the definition of a Republican.

[Thinkingabout]

130. Likewise everyone should shoulder the cost. I dont have a problem with everyone having health

Insurance, just help to defray the cost among the recipients.

[JDPriestly]

216. I like animals, but it is amazint how much people spend on their vet bills and then how some of

those same people don't want to share the cost of health care insurance for indigents.

I worked for a homeless project for eight years. I have a bit of a different experience and therefore a different view on helping others.

Democrats want a society in which we help each other out. Republicans want a society in which we expect each person to fight his or her way or . . . . .

That's what makes us different.

With single payer, everyone who has income helps defray the total cost. As you see single payer systems are less costly than ours. Single payer is the best for everyone.

[darkangel218]

231. Not everyone can afford spending on their pets vet bills

Many people are forced to put their beloved pets down because of lack of money.

[JDPriestly]

247. True. Or not have pets in the first place because they know they will not be able to pay the

vet's bills.
Unless a person is born with a lot of money, just about any of us can at one point in our life or another be broke or at least too broike to buy health insurance or pay medical bills. The single payer insurance spreads the risk across the entire population that you or someone in your family or a neighbor, etc. cannot buy insurance on what you make unless you are assisted by others.

I think people need to put themselves in the shoes of others more often.

[darkangel218]

248. Many people have children, while poor.

In many instances, people chose animals as their children . and they love them just as much as they would love their own flesh and blood.

I have to admit I didn't follow the whole thread, just replied to what you said about pets.

I completely agree with you on the single payer though. It's the only way to get proper healthcare for our people.

Period.

[JDPriestly]

249. I was making the point that people will pay vets to take care of their pets but don't want

to pay anything for the insurance of needy people. Nothing against the pets, but why be more generous to your pets than to your fellow humans?

[darkangel218]

250. Because "pets" are family to many!!

Not everyone wants to reproduce and have human babies. Many chose other species as their babies/best friends.

If you trully fight for single payer system, which I am 100% for, you really shouldn't bring pets into the equation.

Pets are valued just as much as humans, to their families.
Trust me on that.

[JDPriestly]

263. I trust you on that. We had pets for years before we had children.

That is precisely the point. Don't we want to take care of all the people in the US and love them the way we love pets.

It's shameful to treat animals better than people. Nothing wrong with taking good care of animals and loving them. But it's horrible to spend a fortune on your dog and be unwilling to help pay for health insurance for people because the people don't work for some reason.

To me, animals are wonderful, pets are to love, but people come first. We are a society of humans. To allow humans to suffer is pretty awful. To allow your pet to suffer is also pretty awful.

[darkangel218]

264. Thats not citizens fault.

You couldn't possibly blame a citizen for trying to save his/her pet, as being responsible for the lack of single payer system .
It's the politicians fault.

Let's not elect fakes again.

The end.

[JDPriestly]

268. I think we basically agree on this issue. Thanks.

My daughter has a dog that I absolutely adore. And I have had many pets that I loved very much. Love is the most important thing.

[tazkcmo]

141. Some disagree

"I don't want to pay a tax for health insurance to the able bodied who for whatever reason does not desire to have wages at any level."

This poster forgot to add, "...no matter how many seniors, disabled or children go with out also!"

[pangaia]

80. A link to.. WHAT?

My dear, I think you are in over your head, here. Your statements often make no sense.

[Ned_Devine]

84. Yeah, that is a weird RW talking point

It's not the kind of thing I would expect to hear a registered D say.

[beam me up scottie]

151. This forum is full of right wing talking points lately.

Sometimes I think I'm on the wrong website.

[BeanMusical]

265. Totally agree with you.

I'm spending more time on FB lately. Not a single RW point appearing on my news feed. All my friends are true progressive/liberals.

[beam me up scottie]

269. I try to avoid this forum if possible, the Reagan-speak and hatred is toxic.

I can't tell if they really oppose progressive policies or if they're just cluelessly repeating Republican talking points because they don't know any better.

Either way it's disgusting to see that here, especially for anyone who remembers what DU2 was like during the Bush years.

Defending perpetual war in the middle east, for profit health care, screaming about a $1.40 price tag that will help mothers get time with their newborns, wtf?

[BeanMusical]

272. The admins are tolerating a lot of right-wing crap posted by HRC fans.

Well, she's their candidate after all.

[beam me up scottie]

275. There's not much they can do about it.

It's up to juries to hide the crap and us to call it out when it's not hidden.

In a sick way it's kind of fascinating, if I didn't admire Bernie and find this kind of Rovian tactic so despicable this forum would make a great case study on just how far the right wing of the Democratic party will go to trash a progressive candidate.

[BeanMusical]

278. There are a couple of rabid ones that were sent on vacation many times and keep coming back.

But I can think of some Bernie supporters that were banned pronto.

[neverforget]

211. It goes with the "I got mine" and "pull yourself up" type thinking.

they worry about themselves but not the benefit for others.

[Ned_Devine]

220. it's not the type of thing I would expect to read from someone here

[neverforget]

222. Me too. I've seen lots of stuff posted here that I wouldn't

expect a Democrat to support.

[zalinda]

34. It is one thing to be able bodied

and quite another to be able to find a job. If people would only have one job, maybe there would be enough jobs to go around. Or, let's make them all part time jobs and build Clintonvilles, to hold them after their workday is finished. Everyone line up for soup.

And let's not forget all those Welfare moms, popping out babies one after another so they can stay on Welfare and live the good life.

Z

[Thinkingabout]

38. There are jobs, might be low wage jobs like the one I have but it is a job which pays wages, I do

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 08:35 AM - Edit history (1)

Not need a cut in my wages, I need an increase.

[BeanMusical]

266. "I do Need a cut in my wages"

Wut?

[Thinkingabout]

297. Title later line does not wrap, so it left off the word "not", thanks for edit

[ish of the hammer]

64. Do you know anyone who has refused a job. really?

[The Wielding Truth]

121. Could you explain? Sorry I'm lost in this statement.

"He is also proposing an income tax to provide health insurance to everyone and I don't want to pay a tax for health insurance to the able bodied who for whatever reason does not desire to have wages at any level. He said he was going to tax the wealthy and out comes the income tax."

[whopis01]

327. Do you feel the same way about all services or just healthcare?

There are many things that are paid via taxes and provided universally without any concern to income level and/or ability to work.

Should the "able bodied" who "does not desire to have wages at any level" be allowed to use the streets and sidewalks? How about police and fire department services? Maybe they should be kept out of parks as well?

Just curious if your position is consistent or if you are specifically opposed to universal healthcare.

[Starry Messenger]

14. I thought you were a Scot.

Am I thinking of someone else?

[Puglover]

77. And your point is?

What does the OP's nationality have to do with anything?

[Starry Messenger]

149. What would be the importance of convincing him of anything in that case?

He's not voting for anyone in US elections.

[Puglover]

186. I agree

However I don't see your concern directed at the other poster right in this thread that has no say in US politics. Oh wait, you agree with him. Quelle surprise.

[Starry Messenger]

189. That is the tone that will win ya friends.

Keep up the great work!

[Puglover]

190. I have enough friends.

But thanks.

[Starry Messenger]

192. Great!

Hope they can all vote in US elections, because you're going to need every one of them.

[Puglover]

193. LOL

I want Bernie to win. However all of my friends are smart enough to hold their noses and vote for the Democratic nominee. No matter the outcome of this primary.

I am not a believer in cutting off your nose to spite your face. Nor are they.

Have a nice evening.

[sibelian]

241. I am, yes.

?

[Starry Messenger]

337. Then who is the "us" you are addressing in your question of voters?

This is an intellectual exercise for you, and therefore not worth anyone's time to convince you of anything.

[artislife]

17. You are already getting responses by those who scan OPs

And that is to be expected. But I must say that your OP perfectly states my mindset when I think of h.

I don't really care how her supporters are, it is the candidate herself.

Banal.

I said months ago that she was the candidate for Unchange. And that is still my perception.

Thank you for this.

[Vincardog]

18. The only problem I have with this post is: It is impossible to convince anyone to believe what

They are paid not to believe.

[NastyRiffraff]

23. Huh??

Paid not to believe? That makes no sense. I didn't know that people who support Hillary were being paid! Am I missing out??

Explain, please.

[Vincardog]

30. The HRC supporter that calls me admitted she gets paid. Some posters seem incapable of rational

Discussion. Draw your own collusion.

[Thinkingabout]

41. Maybe Sanders is starving his supporters or potential supporters.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Lol! Whoooooooosh!

Either half the people responding to you don't get the point or they're being deliberately obtuse.

Iow, well done, sir!

[sibelian]

243. Oh, they get the point, they just can't afford to address it.

The ones that are avoiding it, that is.

All that poise, grace and elegance and evasiveness is her main strength, as far as I can see, to some Hillary supporters. I DID nearly post something much nastier than this along the lines of "they see things in her that they already admire in themselves" but decided it was very unfair. There are many Hillary supporters who genuinely prefer her positions or genuinely feel that having a chimera that wins for the left is better than a freakish Republican and can't take the risk on a more "outlandish" candidate like Bernie, THAT'S fair enough. They DO tend to argue their case, but what drives me potty is the extent to which the board is clogged with people gaming the board in exactly the same way Clinton seems to some to be gaming the entire system.

[beam me up scottie]

261. Another good point, I have friends who support Hillary.

But not because it's her turn, she's a girl or because Bernie is an old white guy from a small state with funny hair who shouts a lot and only cares about money or any of the other "reasons" we hear from shallow thinkers in this forum.

Threads about issues are vastly outnumbered by threads about polls, right wing talking points about socialism and taxes, she is woman hear her roar and long-winded spittle-flecked screeds about how Bernie-bros are misogynistic and racist therefore vote HILLARY!

Yeah, more of the same will be DIFFERENT this time because ... rich white woman!

[msanthrope]

20. SCOTUS.

I need not go further. If you don't undestand the value of having HRC pick the next three seats, and not a Republican, then I can't help you. Not interested in Walter Mondaling this election over policy disputes.

I don't have to make a case for your vote. Either you get that SCOTUS is that important, or you don't. Maybe you aren't part of a protected class. Maybe you fail to grasp the true corporatism the Roberts court has pushed through. Maybe all of your fundamental rights that you care to exercise are covered.

If you cannot see the value in providing the people of this nation the chance at fundamental fairness....at liberty in SCOTUS, then what is there to say?

[Vincardog]

24. Are you pretending that Bernie would nominate inferior SCOTUS judges? Strawman argument

[msanthrope]

26. Bernie is never going to have the chance. Remember

All the justices Walter Mondale picked?

[RichVRichV]

95. SCOTUS would be a valid reason to say vote for Hillary in the general.

It's not a valid argument to say vote for her in the primary. All the Democratic candidates would choose superior SCOTUS members than the Republicans would.



Or are you still trying to say Bernie can't win the general in spite of all the polls your side is constantly touting saying Bernie will do fine against the Republicans? You don't get to have it both ways. Either you believe in the polls or you don't. The polls that say Hillary is ahead in the primary also says Bernie is in good shape in head to head match ups with the Republicans.


You just can't admit there's more than one viable candidate running on our side.

[msanthrope]

146. Vote for whom you wish in the primary. Just remember

to vote Dem in the general. Bernie isn't making it to the general.

[RichVRichV]

163. I love that logic there.

"You must vote for the Dem in the general. Hillary will be the Dem in the general. Therefore you must vote for Hillary."


Could you be any more obvious?

[msanthrope]

178. Well, yeah. Who else do you plan on voting for in the general? nt

R

[RichVRichV]

181. Bernie Sanders

See it's not your logic that's at fault. It's the premise.

[msanthrope]

195. Do you plan on voting for Bernie if he isn't the nominee? nt

[RichVRichV]

206. Do you plan on voting for Hillary if she isn't the nominee?

I won't vote for someone not running in the general elections if that's what you're asking. As for who I will vote for in the general. I'll make that decision when the time comes. Right now my focus is on getting Bernie into the white house.

[msanthrope]

208. No.. I will vote for and wear the creds of the Dem nominee. mt

[RichVRichV]

210. Bernie welcomes your support.

[msanthrope]

212. Bernie will not have my support. He will have my vote if he is the nominee.

I will work voter protection, regardless of who is the nominee.

[RichVRichV]

217. Works for me.

[tularetom]

31. SCOTUS, schmotus

Yes SCOTUS appointments are an important consideration in choosing a candidate in a presidential election.

That is one of the main reasons I am very skeptical of Hillary Clinton as a candidate. I have no confidence at all that she would nominate the kinds of justices that would overturn Citizens United, uphold net neutrality, protect personal privacy, clamp down on abuses by the banking/finance/insurance cabal or any of the other things that need to be done.

She is not independent, she's joined at the hip to Wall Street, the military industrial complex and corporate America.

[JonLeibowitz]

36. I actually think Rand Paul would nominate better SCOTUS judges

Hear me out. As a libertarian, he would nominate SCOTUS judges who respect constitutionally protected civil liberties; that is his shtick. Hillary Clinton is far more of an authoritarian, and on the issues you list her nominees would not be progressive at all.

Unfortunately, on most of domestic policy Rand Paul is a disaster. Would not vote. But it's worth considering whether, as you did, Hillary would nominate favorable SCOTUS judges for those of us who like our constitutional rights.

[Bluenorthwest]

320. That's full tilt crazy. Rand Paul is opposed to LGBT equality, opposed to women's right to

reproductive choice and that's just two of the major SCOTUS related civil liberties areas in which Rand Paul is what Rand Paul is-a run of the mill Republican, a self serving bullshit artists who is in no way committed to civil liberties. He openly disagreed with SCOTUS 'redefining marriage'.

He's a garden variety Republican. Might as well vote for Trump.

[1StrongBlackMan]

336. He would respect constitutionally protected Civil "Liberties" but not Civil "RIGHTS." n/t

[JonLeibowitz]

338. I don't really see the difference.

If it is protected by the 4th amendment or the 14th amendment it is recognized by the constitution as being an inalienable right just the same.

[1StrongBlackMan]

341. That's probably because you don't appear to be of the demographic ...

affected by the difference.

(See Paul's opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and its subsequent amendments.)

[JonLeibowitz]

362. Perhaps we're just arguing semantics here, but

that's an argument based on perspective, not on the merits.

And I'm afraid you don't know my demographic at all. Guessing based on my handle would yield very inaccurate information.

[1StrongBlackMan]

371. That is true ...

I do not know your demographic ... However, Paul draws a distinction between civil liberties and civil rights, with the former being constitutionally protected; but, not the latter.

[BootinUp]

374. not a surprise to me Jon nt

[JonLeibowitz]

380. Lol nice. I chuckled.

I would never vote for Rand. I do however appreciate that on topics relating to digital security(HRC wants to force decryption backdoors into software which is lunacy) and unconstitutional indefinite detention he is much less authoritarian. And on unnecessary war and regime change as well.

On many many many other things he is a total clown.

[BootinUp]

383. I think one has to remember that a President

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 04:43 PM - Edit history (1)

does have limited powers. So the first thing is Hillary did not suggest she would force anything on encryption backdoors, and I don't believe a President could either. As to whether its lunacy, I prefer to see/hear/read it debated more on the technical issues. There was a paper posted to DU where they took the negative position. Surely there will be some experts taking the positive side (or maybe not).

If you are talking about Gitmo, again the power of the Presidency comment applies. Before one says that Bernie has a better policy than Hillary I hope they can cite a statement or other action as evidence.

I like her ideas on reform of the criminal justice system.

On regime change, I believe it has been pointed out that Bernie has not said to do anything different on Syria. Has he criticized her or Obama on Libya? I think its mostly rhetoric.

I don't think on actual stated policy (where they both have records of some kind) they are really that far apart on these issues to tell you the truth.

[JonLeibowitz]

399. .

Well while a president may not be the decisive force, they do have the bully pulpit. And Obama used that to say a big fat NO to encryption weakening.

I have read the paper signed by most of the security experts and i doubt there will be serious disagreement amongst the experts there. The reason is simple. Multiple times a day i use encryption software which the NSA has no capability or hope of cracking into. I use open source software which i can assure you will not be modified to obey US laws on weakened encryption, since for one reason many developers do not live in the US. The terrorists have already won here, the only changes will make the general public lose on security. It's just a fact, unfortunately.

And maybe i wasn't clear and i apologize for the confusion, i was comparing Rand Paul and HRC, not Bernie and HRC. Rand Paul has introduced legislation to end indefinite detention.

[emulatorloo]

417. Rand Paul is A-OK with businesses discriminating against minorities

So fuck him.

[840high]

40. ....x10+

[MissDeeds]

98. + a zillion

I'm very concerned about her SCOTUS appointment should she (God forbid) win the nomination and the GE.

[upaloopa]

377. Now that smacks of desparation

[mcar]

22. OK then

[MisterP]

25. I thought we were being treated like poker chips!

[Tarc]

28. But...Clinton is already winning, by quite a bit

Why do we have to "make our case" ? I'd say the Sanders fans ar the ones that should be "making their case" to try to get their candidate ahead.

So, we're all ears...

[upaloopa]

32. Says you. Why should anyone take a Bernie

supporter's definition of Hillary especially because she is leading in all the polls.
Thanks but no thanks.

[sibelian]

242. Well, I don't think it's just ME that sees her that way, just cos I like Bernie.

She's rather widely regarded as... untrustworthy. It's not just Bernie supporters.

[jalan48]

35. So Hillary wins and then what?

I agree with the poster. What exactly are we getting besides the first woman President? For many on here that seems to be enough.

[840high]

42. We'll get Trump.

[moreland01]

44. I want a Democrat to win!

I love Bernie. I love Hillary. But my number one goal is to make sure a Democrat wins. I don't think Bernie will win. He appeals to the leftie left left leftist most left part of my soul. But I want to win. Hillary can win. Period.

[bravenak]

49. She will be a great leader who can bring the Democratic Party together

[truebluegreen]

122. She won't be bringing this lifelong Democrat anywhere,

Thanks very much.

[bravenak]

125. That is unfortunate.

[ybbor]

140. To use a favorite of her supporters...

[bravenak]

143. There will always be outliers.

[ybbor]

148. I like your gif

Don't remember any like it when you were on timeout.

[bravenak]

154. I could make you one of me for the next time?

Like one of me being carted off to prison, lol. I think I made a pic of me in jail that people used. I liked that. You know, what? I'll make anything you like. I have photoshop and plenty of art teachers at school, plus a bunch of apps I buy for art projects, you just let me know and I can create! Oooh! I think I feel a spark coming on and need to make something for a friend who is out.

[ybbor]

157. Yeah I saw that one

It did not show you being sprayed with a poison tho. It was a gif in your honor. Yours is sick! But who cares, you don't agree with their opinion, so kill their symbol. Very cute.

[bravenak]

158. Who is being sprayed with poison?

[ybbor]

161. Really?

Enjoy your night.

[bravenak]

164. I always do.

[ybbor]

166. Even in prison?

[bravenak]

169. How would I know? Never been to actual jail.

DU is not the world. I live in the real world. I'm actually posting to you AND talking on the phone to my bff at the same time! Wow! Even when not posting here, I EXIST! Very interesting. I even go to class, and handle my business for my kids and work. Prison? Lol....

[ybbor]

171. Oh, metaphor?

I like it.

Congrats on all your hard work! Seriously! I know how hard school and work and a family is. I'm doing it myself.

BTW, I'm glad you've never been to prison!

Keep up the good work! It's worth every bit! I'm sure you already know.

[bravenak]

173. You're doing it too? Good on you!

I know it's a wild ride. In all honesty. My suspension was the best thing. Classes were starting. Books needed buying. Kids needed shots. I had so much time without postimg that I actually got stuff done and wondered if it had not happened, what would I have let go because I had to get one more stupid ass comment in that I swore was awesome. They start again in January. I really need to log the hell off and go study for finals, start looking for books for the next FIVE classes, get ready for Xmas, ahhhh! You know what? You're right. I trashed gdp and might need to just trash all forums that attract my attention.

Good Luck in school!!

[ybbor]

184. I just PMed you

I hope you don't mind.

[bravenak]

196. It's fine.

[SwampG8r]

197. If only you believed that

[bravenak]

198. The other side has shown their abilities are not up to my standard.

I support her over the alternative. I do not have to LOVE her.

[SwampG8r]

199. OK if that's what you're going with

[bravenak]

200. Does it matter? My vote goes to Hillary. Twice.

[SwampG8r]

201. I find that hard to believe

[bravenak]

202. Too bad

[SwampG8r]

203. Just a conclusion made.from available facts

[bravenak]

204. .

[rhett o rick]

234. She will continue tearing the party apart. Her conservative wing of the party has nothing

but disdain for progressives. No single payer, fracking for oil profits, shipping jobs overseas via the TPP, killing with drones, drilling in the arctic. None of her conservative stands will be welcomed by the progressive wing of our party.

We must get the corrupt money out of politics.

[bravenak]

235. Ignoring

[BeanMusical]

281. You're ignoring yourself?

That's, hum, interesting.

[bravenak]

283. Someone else on ignore replied. Hmmm.

[PatrynXX]

50. thats what I say even emailed / tweeted her at the front

that she had to prove me wrong instead I was ignored and then promptly banned off the Pro Hillary Board. Even if she stands for everything I'm against okay fine. Clearly she doesn't need my vote in January

[merrily]

51. Waaaahhh. Stop looking at Hillary's record.

[quickesst]

53. Haha.... y'all just can't seem to help yourself can you?

"There's no point treating the entire population of the United States as lumps of Play-Doh that get all their ideas about politics from politicians. They don't. "

Once again, Bernie's supporters announce to the world that they believe the majority of the American democratic population is stupid, and they are just "lumps of Play-Doh".
After all, she is leading by wide margins which would indicate Bernie's supporters believe they are so stupid, they "get their ideas about politics from politicians". It's the only conclusion one can arrive at concerning the above statement, and whether the statement is true, partly true, or just more horseshit, this tactic isn't winning Bernie or his supporters any fans.

[angrychair]

174. Not winning fans???

When the very same people that have strutted around here with a self-righteous arrogance, a hubris, I only have seen in one other group. While on this site, without the least bit of irony or shame, label us petty. Label us narrow minded. Label us prideful. Label us as not understanding race and women issues.
While doing all these things, you go to another site, that many of us have seen entries and screenshots from at this point, calling us "latte drinking white trash" and "trailer trash" and saying "Bernie supporters are dumb as bricks and twice as thick" and terms like "hippy punching", "berniebot" and "berniebro" whatever the hell that is, every description is vile and disrespectful. I have barely skimmed the scum from the top of the barrel. The discussions and comments were comments that I have never seen from fellow Democrats and have had a lasting impact on my opinion of followers of your candidate.
While I am sure that some Sanders supporters here have done or said things that was rude and crass, based on what I have seen from that site, those failings are nothing in comparison.
At the very least you have no right or reason to the high ground and or the attitude you carry with you on this site and should well be ashamed of your conduct (sorry, the "Bernie bros" or whatever smear you try to use, started it is a child's reason, not an adult's reason).

[quickesst]

194. First of all...

... this other site you speak of, I have no knowledge nor connection to whatever you're talking about. Why are you lying about what I said when referring to Bernies supporters. I used the term "Bernie's supporters". Second, I believe you completely missed the point of my post, and simply used it as an excuse to go on a childish rant about some other site that has absolutely nothing to do with me. You need to check yourself at the door and back off the personal insults.

[ismnotwasm]

57. Banal?

Last edited Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't think that word means what you think it means...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. The seminal poster's argument is internally inconsistent...

Embodied in the seminal poster's argument is the assertion that Hillary Clinton has all these attributes that voters don't really value. If this is true she wouldn't be leading in the polls...

If the seminal poster wants to argue that the polls aren't dispositive then I would argue it's only a matter of time before his or her argument is proven to be internally inconsistent.

[ismnotwasm]

108. Agreed, taken in aggregate the posters theories are logically refuted

By the very existence of said polls.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. I really don't believe the intent of these threads is to foster discussion, any way...

I do believe they are designed to marginalize one's opponents...It is really a detestable tactic but its practitioners seem to revel in it.

[ismnotwasm]

118. True enough, and I usually don't indulge

But I confess to a love of words. Banality is a great word, but only when used in proper context and in a truthful manner.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. I don't like to be baited either but some times it is unavoidable.

banal=mundane

[ismnotwasm]

139. The irony...

It burns sometimes

[DemocratSinceBirth]

145. Why is it so hard for some folks to believe other people can have different opinions?

That inability is really the hallmark of an authoritarian personality. I don't for a minute doubt there are folks who are legitimately drawn to Senator Sanders.

[angrychair]

175. Detestable tactic???

When the very same people that have strutted around here with a self-righteous arrogance, a hubris, I only have seen in one other group. While on this site, without the least bit of irony or shame, label us petty. Label us narrow minded. Label us prideful. Label us as not understanding race and women issues.
While doing all these things, you go to another site, that many of us have seen entries and screenshots from at this point, calling us "latte drinking white trash" and "trailer trash" and saying "Bernie supporters are dumb as bricks and twice as thick" and terms like "hippy punching", "berniebot" and "berniebro" whatever the hell that is, every description is vile and disrespectful. I have barely skimmed the scum from the top of the barrel. The discussions and comments were comments that I have never seen from fellow Democrats and have had a lasting impact on my opinion of followers of your candidate.
While I am sure that some Sanders supporters here have done or said things that was rude and crass, based on what I have seen from that site, those failings are nothing in comparison.
At the very least you have no right or reason to the high ground and or the attitude you carry with you on this site and should well be ashamed of your conduct (sorry, the "Bernie bros" or whatever smear you try to use, started it is a child's reason, not an adult's reason).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

183. WoW

"...While doing all these things, you go to another site..."

What site?

If you have proof that I have posted untoward things at another site I am sure you can adduce it.


We will all be waiting.


Thank you in advance.

[angrychair]

187. You know as well as I

That some of you have used your same user names as here, some have not.
Therefore the "you" was a generalization, as it would appear that many supporters of your candidate have created accounts over there to say what you really think without the worry of getting tombstones here.

While I am happy to grants you the benfit of the doubt that you don't use that site, a great many of your fellow supporters have and you know very well what site I am referring too.

[ismnotwasm]

307. I do

DSB does not. I love that site.

[sibelian]

244. Indeed? And what do YOU think I think it means?

BANAL:

adjective: banal

so lacking in originality as to be obvious and boring


trite, hackneyed, clichéd, platitudinous, vapid, commonplace, ordinary, common, stock, conventional, stereotyped, predictable, overused, overdone, overworked, stale, worn out, time-worn, tired, threadbare, hoary, hack, unimaginative, unoriginal, derivative, uninspired, prosaic, dull, boring, pedestrian, run-of-the-mill, routine, humdrum;

antonyms: original

[beerandjesus]

411. Actually, that word describe's Hillary's candidacy PERFECTLY.

Unless, when you looked it up in the dictionary, what you were expecting to find was this:

BANAL (buh NAL) adj.

1. Her turn.
2. A fighter.
3. Proof of the voter's lack of sexism.

[Buzz Clik]

59. LOL!!!

The OP was certainly a different approach. Laughable, but different.

Her clothes? Really?



It's a damned good thing that Sanders has a lot of appeal, because a lot of his supporters are downright repugnant.

[Kalidurga]

60. As soon as I started reading this I knew her supporters wouldn't get it

they seem to be the same posting poll after poll showing she is winning without a single word to why she is a better candidate. But, then they can't make that case even if they tried, because her record doesn't lend itself to that kind of scrutiny.

[Buzz Clik]

65. HRC supporters owe nothing to those Sanders supporters...

... who cough up hate hair balls and then tell dare them to say it isn't art.

[angrychair]

176. "Hate hairballs"???

When the very same people that have strutted around here with a self-righteous arrogance, a hubris, I only have seen in one other group. While on this site, without the least bit of irony or shame, label us petty. Label us narrow minded. Label us prideful. Label us as not understanding race and women issues.
While doing all these things, you go to another site, that many of us have seen entries and screenshots from at this point, calling us "latte drinking white trash" and "trailer trash" and saying "Bernie supporters are dumb as bricks and twice as thick" and terms like "hippy punching", "berniebot" and "berniebro" whatever the hell that is, every description is vile and disrespectful. I have barely skimmed the scum from the top of the barrel. The discussions and comments were comments that I have never seen from fellow Democrats and have had a lasting impact on my opinion of followers of your candidate.
While I am sure that some Sanders supporters here have done or said things that was rude and crass, based on what I have seen from that site, those failings are nothing in comparison.
At the very least you have no right or reason to the high ground and or the attitude you carry with you on this site and should well be ashamed of your conduct (sorry, the "Bernie bros" or whatever smear you try to use, started it is a child's reason, not an adult's reason).

[sibelian]

245. Oh you OWE nothing, for sure.

But that's not how it works. Is it?

[Buzz Clik]

298. Yep. That's how it works.

[beam me up scottie]

74. The only thing they post about more often than polls are rants about Bernie's supporters.

Issues? They don't need no stinkin issues!

Which is why I'm avoiding GDP as a rule but this OP was too delightful to resist.

[Kalidurga]

76. The went OTT months ago with "That's not good enough, Bernie"

and it has been downhill ever since. They trash Bernie and in the same breath claim we are hitting ourselves.

[beam me up scottie]

78. They created an entire website to troll DU and its members.

And they complain about the pushback here?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

[Kalidurga]

81. I know right

I kept hearing claims about all these anti Clinton threads and posts so I tried to find one over the course of a week I got tired of looking for them and asking on several occasions. So, I finally sort of made one. It wasn't really all that strong of an anti Clinton thread. I forget what it was even about.

[beam me up scottie]

85. Quoting Hillary and citing her record is considered "anti-Hillary".

And every source critical of her is dubious, one supporter even claimed that a Mother Jones article was a "right wing hit piece".

[lunamagica]

82. Haven't you read this thread?

let me enlighten you:

From DSB, post .7

She is eminently qualified to be president of the United States by dint of experience, temperament, and record of achievement.

-First Lady of Arkansas
-First Lady Of the United States
-Two term senator from one of the most populous and most heterogeneous states in the nation
-Secretary of State

She has offered detailed positions for this campaign on

-criminal justice reform
-immigration reform
-climate change
-financial reform
-combating terrorism
-gun control
-tax relief and added Social Security benefits for caregivers

She and her husband have worked tirelessly for the Democratic party since they were wet behind the ears field organizers for George McGovern in 1972 registering Mexicans in southwest Texas to vote.


See, I was able to make my case without denigrating Senator Sanders or the other members of our community. "

From Thinkingabout, reply 12

The same side of the issues I stand. I also know she has experience in foreign affairs, is smart, is willing to continue to work for the good of the US. I did not arrive at my supports. of supporting Hillary because she is a female as some have stated is the reason she is getting support.

I also have looked at the positions Sanders has taken on the issues and I don't agree with them. One in particular is on gun issues, he lost lots of room on that one. He is also proposing an income tax to provide health insurance to everyone and I don't want to pay a tax for health insurance to the able bodied who for whatever reason does not desire to have wages at any level. He said he was going to tax the wealthy and out comes the income tax"

From msanthrop, reply 20
I need not go further. If you don't undestand the value of having HRC pick the next three seats, and not a Republican, then I can't help you. Not interested in Walter Mondaling this election over policy disputes.

I don't have to make a case for your vote. Either you get that SCOTUS is that important, or you don't. Maybe you aren't part of a protected class. Maybe you fail to grasp the true corporatism the Roberts court has pushed through. Maybe all of your fundamental rights that you care to exercise are covered.

If you cannot see the value in providing the people of this nation the chance at fundamental fairness....at liberty in SCOTUS, then what is there to say? "

From Bravenak, reply 29

She will be a great leader who can bring the Democratic Party together.

From me:

Immigration reform and gun control are my number one and two issues, she reflects my views there.

[Walk away]

67. Is it possible that Sanders supporters are as pedantic as their idol?

Yes!

[stevenleser]

90. Much, much more so. nt

[Walk away]

116. For me, it's a toss up!

[Chef Eric]

221. Pedantic! Interesting word choice.

pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective

of or like a pedant.
synonyms: overscrupulous, scrupulous, precise, exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky

I know the word has a negative connotation, but I don't mind being associated with some of those synonyms.

After all, when it's time to choose the leader of our government, I think that being scrupulous, precise, meticulous, and fussy can be a good thing. You know, one really can't be too careful, with the well-being of our country and its citizens at stake.

[Walk away]

305. Words have so many meanings. Flatter yourself if you must!

pedantic

A tendency toward involuntary discovery of evidence suggesting widespread ignorance and/or ineptitude, esp. with regard to linguistic communication.
example
"There were days when Eric's instinctive pedantry threatened to overwhelm him. "

[Chef Eric]

309. Ah yes, the sixth definition at urban dictionary.

Absolutely essential stuff, thank you.

[FlatBaroque]

68. Reccing, Bookmarking, Tweeting this post

which is the best post I have read on this site in quite a while. Every single line in it is quotable, but I will pick this one for now:

"Why would we vote for someone on the grounds that you have issues with us? "

[jehop61]

73. You berniebots

are getting tiresome.

[GitRDun]

91. I'm ready for the primaries to be over

To imply Hillary has brought little or nothing of value to people in her career is disingenuous at best.

I agree she is a flawed candidate, but so is Bernie Sanders....and the problem, as you say, is NOT with Hillary.

Bernie hasn't made HIS CASE. That's why he's trailing HRC.

Apparently she's made her case; she leads in every way you can by large margins. I understand you don't like that she's leading, but that's a fact.

They're both fine people...some part of which most of us like better than any Republican.

But please, make Bernie's case and get some converts, otherwise let's dispense with the mudslinging and get on with the business getting a Democrat elected.

[cheapdate]

92. Could it possibly be that a great many Democratic voters nationwide

are considerably more conservative, pro-business, pro-military than the average DUer?

Could it possibly be that well established public opinion research consistently showing that majorities of Americans are well to the right of DU on any number of important issues are actually correct?

Face it, Hillary has huge institutional support -- and I'm not just talking about Third-Way and Wall Street. She has institutional support all across the country with civic groups, professional groups, churches, etc.

If you ask me (and you didn't) Bernie's supporters need to sell their candidates ideas and not spend time trying to to convince people who are inclined to support Hillary, that Hillary is some kind of immoral, unprincipled, cretin.

[stevenleser]

103. "Bernie's supporters need to sell their candidates ideas and not..." They don't get it.

This has been said to them since May/June.

They don't get it and probably never will.

[bravenak]

127. True, Steve. Never will.

[The Wielding Truth]

131. I'm worried that she won't fight against the money brokers who have co-opted our country.

That is Bernie's message and stand. He will fight them. And has been for nearly a decade.

He is lacking in foreign hands on experience but he didn't fall for Bush/Cheney lies.

I like Hillary and think If we can't get major change I will take rational leadership. If Hillary wins the

Primaries, I will defiantly vote Hillary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

150. They would rather insult people than make converts.

EOM

[stevenleser]

152. Either that or they don't understand the difference. Either way same difference. nt

[lovemydog]

126. LOL. Make your case.

I demand it!

If you don't say what I want to hear I will ridicule and mock you!

And if you don't say anything I will presume that I am right and you are wrong.

Yeesh.

You truly cannot imagine any reasons why anyone would support Hillary or O'Malley? You can't even think of any? You can't comprehend it or imagine it?

I'm leaning toward voting for Bernie but some here actually have the idiocy to say 'Oh, when anyone says I'm leaning toward Bernie but... that it means they were never really a Bernie supporter in the first place.' That 'argument' is so full of lunacy it makes those folks sound like they're in a cult. If I vote for anyone it's always 'I support this candidate but...' No one is perfect.

[darkangel218]

129. Kick!!

[Chico Man]

133. Yawn

If Bernie's message is sooo compelling, why isn't he winning? Brought down by "the man"?

These posts are sad and not doing Bernie any favors.

[Capt. Obvious]

138. .

[Autumn]

144. I don't give a tinkers damn what they think of me.

I support Bernie for President because he is the best candidate, and what we need at this time. I relish their hate. End of story.

[hootinholler]

185. It smells like victory

[Moonwalk]

147. Here's some thing I'd like you to explain to me....

...Exactly how is telling Hillary supporters all this ("You're voting for the wrong person—she's this bad, that bad, this not, that not, she's a total loser! and you are too, because you're supporting her!"—my paraphrasing there), supposed to change their minds and make them love Bernie and his supporters?

I mean, I know saying such things makes you feel good and like you've "Bern-ed" the evil Hillary and her supporters, but, I'm still mystified how these insults to Hillary supporters and to Hillary are suppose to get them not only voting for Bernie in the primary, but knocking on doors selling him to voters should he win the primary. Or...do you think they'll just forget about all this hateful rhetoric once Bernie wins and finally agree that you were right all along and we should march together?

Do you really think Bernie can be president if you alienate Hillary supporters during the primary to the point where they don't want to help you? Just curious; if you believe Bernie and his supporters don't need no stink'n Hillary supporters to vote for him or to help with his campaign, then what your'e doing makes sense. But I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the logic here if you expect Hillary supporters to stand shoulder to shoulder with you after the primaries. What you're saying about them and their choice is kinda, sorta the wrong thing is you want them to say, "Well played and you win" after the primary and support Bernie with glad and open hearts.

[tazkcmo]

326. Back atcha.

"Do you really think Bernie can be president if you alienate Hillary supporters during the primary to the point where they don't want to help you?"

[Moonwalk]

375. How very...predictable. Answer the question first....

...AND then, point me to a Hillary supporter post that says EXACTLY the same things as this one does and I'll be happy to ask them to explain themselves.

So. BACK ATCHA. Because two wrongs don't make a right. If you posted those insults above, then you have to explain how they're going to get your desired result—which, I would hope, is getting Hillary supporters not only voting for Bernie, but standing shoulder to shoulder with you to get him elected. Otherwise, your post make no sense except to say "nah, nah, my candidate is better." Hardly makes you look mature, and that doesn't reflect well on Bernie either to have such supporters.

And BACK ATCHA...I thought Bernie and his supporters were better than those of Hillary. If your whole argument is that Bernie and supporters are superior to Hillary and supporters, then why are you sinking to the same level as Hillary supporters? This sort of insulting proves that you are not better than those insulting you. You're pretty much the same.

And in case you were wondering, I'm thinking of voting for O'Malley. I haven't yet seen any of his supporters sinking to insulting Hillary or Bernie like this. Of course, if you point me in the direction of such a post, I'll be happy to ask them to explain themselves, too....

There really is no excuse for anyone here to be other than courteous.

[stupidicus]

156. excellent

as a long time Clinton critic, I can't tell you how pleased and hopeful I am over so many people finally waking up

[Miigwech]

159. First woman President !

I think that in itself brings a hell of a lot to the American people and to the culture of the world. Also, thinking it would be fun to have an ex-Pres serving as the the person in charge of selecting the flower arrangements and place settings for dinner. Wow, talk about a game changer for the future of gender equality..... and all the late night jokes! It will bring some fun back.

[Capt. Obvious]

162. Jury results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:37 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

OK then. A Message to Hillary Supporters...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251838762

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Fuck this stupid shit. I'm so tired of all the anti-hillary condescending divisive bullshit going on around here. It's gonna continue until YOU the jury puts a stop to it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:01 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

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Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's just an opinion of someone who seems to think he or she is expressing a political view of a whole lot of people. Isn't that the us vs. them thing ! Leave it, it's just an opinion ! Perhaps even somewhat revolutionary !
My goodness how revolting !
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[beam me up scottie]

165. LMAO! Aw, someone has to go sit in the corner for 24 hours.

"Fuck this stupid shit"?

DU needs YOU to CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW AND HIDE THREADS I DON'T LIKE!

[George II]

168. "Make your case. She must bring something of value to people, not politics."

Start here:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

[nolabels]

291. She appeals to me like warm vomit.

Starting with that VERY first point on your link to her campaign and Quote :"Campaign finance reform
Our democracy should work for everyone, not just the wealthy and well-connected"

By her own admission, it is something she would like us to believe that she intends to fix. This is akin to a alcoholic on a heavy bender telling the world that booze is a bad thing and everyone should quit drinking it. I have lived around enough drunks to know that this is the exact same behavior. These very particular bad things, these things that they know is ruining their lives, somehow will be the very tool that they somehow will be able use to fix that problem with. The mark of a true addict, they can only identify it when its slapping them in face. They also cannot fathom how endangering and damaging it is to their lives because they are so close to it.

Have fun , I got to go pick up some paper towels

[zentrum]

172. Good points. n/t

[CentralMass]

179. Great mirror image post :-)

[99Forever]

180. K&R

[McCamy Taylor]

205. Good grief. "her clothing doesn't register with anyone"

Thanks for handing me my DU post of the day on a silver platter.

[bravenak]

209. I missed that.

[darkangel218]

224. Out of all the OP, thats the only thing you're going to refute?

So that means you agree with everything else. Thanks!!!

[Rose Siding]

226. Sometimes one thing in these manifesto type rants sticks out as especially nutty.

Who would bother to refute each belabored, misguided woe-is-me, why-not-bernie-when-she-SUCKS screed?

Your post has the same level of logic as 'I know your are but what am I'.

[darkangel218]

228. How about the poster chose not to attempt refuting the rest, because it is the truth??

That is what I think is going on here.

[leftofcool]

290. Nope, pants suits, hair styles, all nutty crap.

But typical and predictable. Ya'll should bombard people's Face Book posts with this stuff. Oh wait, you already have.

[Lil Missy]

219. nobody has to "make a case" for you.

Vote however you want. I'll vote for who I want. Your approval is not necessary.

[BlueMTexpat]

294. + a million or so. eom

[Betty Karlson]

237. So much truth! Thanks for saying this.

I, for one, would not have been able to put this into such clear words.

[PosterChild]

256. BANALITY! That's the REAL issue.,,

.,... in this election ! The candidate must DO something for people, like make them laugh or get them all excited ! The candidate must BREAK stuff up!! And yell GO TO HELL! Then he will not be BANAL ! He will be exciting ! And inspiring ! And definitely not banal!

[Warren DeMontague]

257. A Message To You, Rudy

[BeanMusical]

282. Lol!

[Enthusiast]

287. What an incredible post! You have captured the essence.

Now, what can we do about it?

[BlueMTexpat]

292. Frankly, I really don't care

about what YOU think if you think that I have to make my case for being a Hillary supporter to you. I don't.

It would be a waste of my time because you already have your own mind made up against her. As your post demonstrates. And that's fine.

We have three excellent Dem candidates. Period.

Please do me the courtesy of respecting my choice and stop with the hectoring and the lecturing.

You seem to believe that I and other Hillary supporters are (in your words) "lumps of Play-Doh" that you can mold just because you write a post that is so patronizing that it makes me (at least) grind my teeth.

It doesn't work.

[Amimnoch]

296. Phrase "Front-runner" mean anything?

It is a WONDERFUL task, and with so much satisfaction, but I do thank you for your concern. It's heartwarming.

You'd like to see a case? Alright, I'll point out the obvious for you:

1. A lifetime of achievements, with actual involvement in the political arena (much better in my opinion than some who sit on the sidelines, and are masters at heckling and Monday morning quarter backing). Sure she's made some mistakes and some bad moves.. That's what happens when someone actually DOES stuff. I sure couldn't support her if she'd been in Congress 25 plus years and STILL had only passed 3 bills that she'd sponsored or co-sponsored as her only actual achievement.

2. As the Senator from New York was instrumental in securing more than $21 Billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.

3. Was a leader in the investigation of health consequences of first responders and drafted the first bill to compensate and offer the health services for first responders. The bill was finalized, and passed by her successor Kirsten Gillibrand.. you know.. when she actually joined the executive branch as the Secretary of State.. What's Mr. Burns executive experience again?

4. Ran the Kate Mullany National Historic Site Act to a successful passage.

5. As Senator, Hillary Clinton fought to pass the DREAM Act and comprehensive immigration reform, helping to cultivate awareness of the issues in Congress. She introduced the Legal Immigrant Children’s Health Improvement Act, which would give states the option to provide federally funded Medicaid and SCHIP benefits to low-income legal immigrant children and pregnant women. She also wrote the Access to Employment and English Acquisition Act to meet the growing demand for English language courses and other job skills.

6. Hillary wrote a law as Senator providing grants to state and local governments to pay for respite care services for family caregivers, which allows expanded funding for temporary breaks for caregivers of sick or disabled people.

Maybe a few of her Senate positions?
Committee on the Budget (2001-2003)
Committee on Armed Services (2003-2009)
Subcommittee on Airland
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities
Subcommittee on Readiness and Management Support

Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001-2009)
Subcommittee on Clean Air and Nuclear Safety
Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, and Water
Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure (2007-2008)
Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (Chairwoman, 2007-2009)

Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001-2009)
Subcommittee on Children and Families
Subcommittee on Employment and Workplace Safety

And, this isn't eve TOUCHING on what she did in the Justice Department, and as the first lady of Arkansas, or as FLOTUS, or with their charitable foundation, or as Secretary of State for the US.

Your side does have one point, it isn't her "turn", nor is she "entitled" to be the next Democratic Party nominee.. But she is very much the most experienced, the most successfully progressive choice, and the only one in the race who's actually DONE something that makes her worth my vote.

Although.. Mr. Burns does make very pretty speeches when he promises the world.

[Jamaal510]

300. You just dodged a bullet:

On Mon Nov 23, 2015, 07:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Phrase "Front-runner" mean anything?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=840324

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Referring to Senator Sanders as "Mr. Burns" is oot. We have 3 fine candidates and none of them should be subjected to the kind of oot rhetoric that we see on right wing websites. We can debate their merits without stopping this low.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 23, 2015, 07:44 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: OKay, I don't agree with the posters assertions, but how is not okay to call him Mr. Burns, when musch, MUCH worse is hurled at her every day?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The comment is rude but not worth a hide.
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[Amimnoch]

301. Oh I have my own special little group of followers on here.

I could post that the sky is blue, and I'll be alerted on.

Heck, this reply is likely going to be alerted.

[That Guy 888]

302. At this point, "fornt runner" means as much to me as "no votes have been cast" means to you.

Although.. Mr. Burns does make very pretty speeches when he promises the world.

Cool. The last guy that HRC supporters complained about making "pretty speeches" ended up being a two term President

[Amimnoch]

304. You are spot on about the President Obama reference.

See, at the end of the day I'm a realist. You are VERY correct with the President Obama reference.

Have you by chance read many of the comments about how Obama betrayed the people who put him in office? Posts calling him an Oligarch. Posts calling him corporate bought and paid for? Etc.. etc.. etc..

President Obama was my 3rd choice in 2008. My first choice was Dennis Kucinich. When he bowed out, I supported Hillary. When she lost the Primary, I went full on in support of Obama. You are so spot on in the comparison. My biggest concern about President Obama was that he would either be horribly ineffectual as president if he stuck to his platform, or a HUGE disappointment to many who put him in office in the first place because to move forward he HAS/HAD to compromise.

Hell you can see it in some of the attacks on Hillary now for her time as SoS. She wasn't President, she was promoting President Obama's policy.

So yes, my concern with Bernie is the same concern I had with President Obama. Even more so, since President Obama at least seemed politically savvy, and knew how to get things done. If Bernie gets the Nomination, if Bernie goes on to become president, he will have the same choices Obama had, or Clinton would have: Do whatever it takes to get progressive and liberal policies pushed forward as much as possible with the congress he's given. Accept that many of those bills will be flawed in order to get them passed (think Healthcare reform without the single payer). OR a President Sanders will stick by the guns and policies, and positions that got him elected and end up making him the most useless, and ineffective president in History. I believe, unlike President Obama, Bernie Sanders has the moral fiber to make himself useless.

SO, I chose the candidate that, while having some flawed history, is EXCELLENT at working to actually get things done, and I KNOW she WILL work with the congress that America Gives her to work with. If America gives her a Republican House or Senate, we will NOT like chunks of the bills that do get passed, but in the end they will move us forward. If America gives her a typical Democrat Congress - we will get a LOT of progress, with only small compromises to corral up the needed votes. If America gives her a fully progressive Congress, we WILL have a fully progressive movement go on.

Those of us who are actual Democrats realize that it's not all about the Presidency, it's also about the congress we give to that president.

[That Guy 888]

306. At some point a stand must be taken, a horrible compromise that goes too far

How often do you here our news disseminators talk about going easy on guests in exchange for access? I always wonder what use is access if it's never employed to get real news?

That Hillary would get things done I have no doubt. She maybe will toss the occasional socially liberal bone that doesn't interfere with the corporate America's multinational "Gold Standard" agenda.

I also have no doubt that many if not the majority of those things would be things that are detrimental to 99% of Americans, or 97.5%, however her paymasters cut it.

Either way it will be an interesting primary and election

[BootinUp]

310. At some point you gotta get in the game or you go 25 years

without much to show for it.

[That Guy 888]

313. Yeah, Bill gave us NAFTA and Welfare reform

That's what you get when you surrender the narrative to repugs, always on the defensive, constantly deferring to their "vision thing" as GHWB called it.

Someone needs to tell Carville and the Clintons that it's not 1980, and raygun isn't punching hippies to the cheers of Reagan Democrats.

[BootinUp]

314. The only reason that your view doesn't lead the Democratic party

is because people who know politics don't buy it because it has NEVER fucking worked.

[That Guy 888]

317. "NEVER fucking worked" ...oh my, such language.

Tell it to FDR it seemed to uh "fucking work" for him.

Also too, JFK and LBJ.

[BootinUp]

324. Its so easy to take a political policy or candidate from many years prior

and ignore the context in such a way as to completely distort the reality. The test for any political strategy is whether it can actually build a winning coalition and this depends on various factors like whats going on in the world, what policies are believed to be effective and not effective by the public, as well as the candidates strategy, and more stuff. Go back and read FDR's 1932 nomination speech and in the context of the great depression it was rather mild. His first term was notable for cutting taxes, size of government, pumping money into the banks. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=75174

Kennedy was also known for advocating cutting taxes and being fiscally conservative for a Democrat.

LBJ was assured the nomination and campaigned as a moderate.

Note: It really gets tiring reading the same stuff over and over where, at least in my view, there is not much reality when discussing political strategy. I chose language that properly expressed my feelings on that.

[That Guy 888]

354. LBJ campaigned as a moderate??? If the Great Society was moderate we need more of it!

as for Kennedy: “If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.” https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0-Y7y-6bJAhVFNSYKHX72Bo8QtwIIPDAH&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DO3oY93doosg&usg=AFQjCNECRWBmjmVQUJ352jqC2shEBzVqMQ&sig2=BT_43v1c55DJmXLkVL3bYw

I should have also added dick nixon how made some half-hearted (may I say clintonesque) attempts at appear moderate if not liberal (i.e. the EPA, and lip service to ending American involvement in the Vietnam war)

You are right in that those campaigns are in the past. But your wrong in assuming that by toadying to repug positions and policies we will gain anything other than disappointed Democratic voters and minority party status.

[BootinUp]

357. On LBJ 1964

http://millercenter.org/president/biography/lbjohnson-campaigns-and-elections

Johnson, meanwhile, portrayed himself as a moderate and a peacemaker.
When all the votes were tallied, most Democratic voters remained with their party, and large numbers of Republicans joined independent voters in the Democratic column. Johnson reveled in this "frontlash" that counteracted the white "backlash" caused by his support of the Civil Rights Act. Only in the Deep South did Goldwater win over large numbers of Democrats, and that was by virtue of his opposition to Johnson's integrationist agenda. Johnson won by the widest margin of popular votes in American history. Additionally, he enjoyed a huge 10 to 1 victory in the electoral college. For Republicans, it was an electoral disaster of monumental proportions. For Johnson and the Democrats, the election gave them an opportunity that they had not enjoyed since the early days of the New Deal: the opportunity to pass a comprehensive liberal program.

--------------------------
I guess he believed that elections have consequences.

---------------------------

I think I have said all I care to on this subject for now. Keep fighting for what you believe, but don't stop evolving when you learn new facts.

[That Guy 888]

364. Odd editing

Barry Goldwater, a deeply conservative senator from Arizona, took the nomination after a hotly contested fight. Senator Goldwater promised to reorient the party rightward, offering "a choice, not an echo" for conservatives. In his nomination speech, he appealed to conservative "purists" and threw down the gauntlet to Republican moderates with the famous words "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."By rejecting any unity gestures toward Republican moderates, Goldwater alienated much of the party; only one-fifth of its voters was comfortable with his nomination. Goldwater's slogan, "In your heart, you know he's right," seemed to imply that liking him was something to be ashamed of: Democratic wags countered, "In your guts, you know he's nuts." Goldwater's television advertising was outdated and inept while Johnson's, on the other hand, was state of the art. One little-shown Johnson campaign spot has proven to be one of the most memorable political ads ever. It featured a little girl in a meadow, playfully pulling the petals off a daisy, counting down from ten to zero until she is blotted out by a nuclear explosion. Johnson, meanwhile, portrayed himself as a moderate and a peacemaker.

I read that as portraying his opponent as a "General Jack Ripper" nuclear cowboy, and himself (Johnson) as someone who was moderate on defense: willing to defend America, but not frothing at the mouth for a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.

[BootinUp]

367. the link was there and it was there for you to go to

and read more.

What does moderate or conservative or liberal mean? It is all dependent on the range of opinions and which ones resonate more with the public. As you see he gained support from Independents and Republicans, that means he was seen as a moderate. In 1964 LBJ had the money and the congress and the election margin to do a lot. I stand by my assertion that he ran as a moderate and that includes economic and foreign policy. However I am not an expert so if someone comes along with better info I would be interested.

[That Guy 888]

368. I was trying to be polite, it's very deceptive editing on your part.

You take the last sentence of one paragraph about "in your guts, you know he's nuts" sabre rattling Goldwater and how LBJ appeared moderate in comparison. Then you cut out the spacing to make the first sentence in the following paragraph.

[BootinUp]

369. Whether that is true or not it has no bearing on the discussion, of course

I would say that it was the part I felt made my point and that my point has been well made.

[That Guy 888]

372. The only point deception makes is that facts don't support your conclusion. n/t

[raouldukelives]

339. Just an interjection but IMHO.

The only reason that view doesn't lead is because of Wall St.

Because some are more than willing to sacrifice a clear conscience for a dollar bill.

Our entire reality is based around the narratives of corporations and easy money for themselves and the legions of shareholders who provide fiduciary cover for them to lie, cheat and steal from the rest of us.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. For a shareholder, the results are everywhere one looks today.

[BootinUp]

342. Feel free, no worries

"Because some are more than willing to sacrifice a clear conscience for a dollar bill."

Look, I see all kinds of issues where I can largely agree with Bernie, thing is he is not that far apart on policy from Hillary.

But on to your main point as I understand it, you suggest that the main problem in politics is corruption, or quid pro quo, and by your avatar you believe Bernie is the only sound choice in the Dem primary on that score.

I will sketch out a scenario for you, probably badly but here goes: A politician has had certain goals or issues to make a difference on since their first days in politics. Over time not much progress is made, not for lack of effort. Most of that effort revolved around campaigning to like minded people and networking with like minded people. People who did not agree with the politicians approach just tended not to make time to listen. People who agreed with the politician did not form a large enough block to move the issue forward. Prior to the end of this politicians career, the politician tried other approaches that involved compromising on various issues in order to get support for his/her bill or program. This approach was more successful.

Now a similar sketch could be drawn out involving how to raise money.

I hope my post is found useful or interesting.

[raouldukelives]

424. Agreed, it is all about the money for some. Damn the consequences. nt

[Amimnoch]

333. Darling, your cherry-picked hyperbole is showing.

I've got to say, It kind of reminds me of how those bible thumping conservatives cherry-pick bible versus to make their arguments while forgetting everything else.

For example, Those are the only versus you remember, and I'm happy to point out the rest:

http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-01.html

Longest economic expansion in American history

More than 22 million new jobs

Highest home ownership in American history

Lowest unemployment in 30 years

Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill

Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet

Lowest crime rate in 26 years

100,000 more police for our streets

Enacted most sweeping gun safety legislation in a generation

Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans

Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years

Higher incomes at all levels

Lowest poverty rate in 20 years

Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years

Lowest infant mortality rate in American history

Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union

Protected millions of acres of American land

Paid off $360 billion of the national debt

Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus

Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years

More families own stock than ever before

The President has appointed more African Americans, women and Hispanics to the Cabinet than any other President in history. He appointed the first female Attorney General, the first female Secretary of State and the first Asian American cabinet secretary ever.

And, that's just the Presidency period. What's Senator Sanders list?

[That Guy 888]

349. Hmm... the White House accomplishments of Bill Clinton according to.... Bill Clinton's White House

Why no details in those accomplishments? Could it be because the legislative sausage isn't pretty?

Longest economic expansion in American history

What are the details behind that blurb? Website says: "The President's strategy of fiscal discipline, open foreign markets and investments in the American people helped create the conditions for a record 115 months of economic expansion. Our economy has grown at an average of 4 percent per year since 1993. "

What does fiscal discipline mean? Open foreign markets in which direction?

More than 22 million new jobs

What did those jobs pay? Does that include H1-B visa jobs?

Highest home ownership in American history

I'm sorry perhaps we're not posting from the same reality based community, but where I am, 64.2% is LESS than 64.4%

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/owner.html

2000 66.2%
United States 1990 64.2%
1980 64.4%

Lowest unemployment in 30 years

Again, what sort of jobs? Good union jobs that allow a stay at home partner and a single wage earner to buy a home, car, and put children through college?

Why no mention of those awesome charter schools? here:

Raised education standards, increased school choice, and doubled education and training investment
Since 1992, reading and math scores have increased for 4th, 8th, and 12th graders, math SAT scores are at a 30-year high, the number of charter schools has grown from 1 to more than 2,000, forty-nine states have put in place standards in core subjects and federal investment in education and training has doubled.

I'm curious as to why you didn't just cut and paste the whole page? Well lets read the details of just one more:

Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years

What are the details on that?

"The President pledged to end welfare as we know it and signed landmark bipartisan welfare reform legislation in 1996. Since then, caseloads have been cut in half, to the lowest level since 1968, and millions of parents have joined the workforce. People on welfare today are five times more likely to be working than in 1992."

According to this report http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/12/how-bill-clintons-welfare-reform-created-a-system-rife-with-racial-biases/

Bill Clinton ran on this idea that he was going to end welfare as we know it. And he was also going to get tougher on crime. He was attempting to reassure white voters, but once the Republicans took Congress, in 1994, Clinton found that he had painted himself into a corner, because of course the Republicans were willing to go much farther in this game than he was.

Bill Clinton was to poor people what FDR was to rich people a source of unexpected betrayal.

[Lil Missy]

330. Those facts only count in the real world, not on DU. n/t

[That Guy 888]

299. Is this in response to the "A message to Sanders supporters" post?

Because the HRC supporters don't seem to get it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251837968

Most of the following is a response to a reply to a post I made here entitled, "Attempting to tear down Democratic candidates is just plain stupid". The DU member making the reply in question claimed to have outed me as Clinton supporter. My response is something I wanted everyone to have access to so I am reposting it here:

I have never attacked Sanders, here on DU or anywhere else. I don't engage in what I consider stupid political tactics. If Hillary wins the nomination, I don't want some of the most passionate progressives not actively supporting her or worst yet, not even voting for her.

Bernie supporters need to understand that winning the nomination means nothing if he can't win the general election. If Bernie wins the nomination, he is going to need people like me not only voting for him, but actively supporting him with our time and money. Back in 2008 I was initially a Clinton supporter. When Hillary dropped out of the race and Obama won the nomination I became an Obama supporter, donating very generously of both my time and money to his campaign. However, I must admit to the failings of human nature I suppose, but right now due to the sometimes vicious attacks of Sanders supporters, I am feeling less than enthusiastic Bernie's candidacy.

Let me put it in terms just about everyone can understand - Bernie supporters would be wise to not piss off Hillary supporters like me.


And I am adding this: Now if you believe that Bernie has absolutely no chance to win the nomination, there is no need to heed my warnings. You can't hurt a candidate that has already lost. But on the other hand if you believe that Clinton has the nomination wrapped up, why would you waste your time trying to tear her down. However, if you really believe that Bernie has a chance - I suggest you tread more carefully going forward.

Further down the thread was this exchange between a Sanders supporter and the poster of the op:

so clinton supporters

can call bernie supporters sexists and racists and we are the ones you send warning to

I agree with you; Clinton supporters you're talking about are far from bright.

I think they are in a small minority, but since it appears that Clinton has a very good chance of winning this thing - my warning is even more appropriate for Clinton supporters*.

*emphasis is mine

[Adrahil]

303. Feel better?

I predict this thread changes no one's mind.

[Ikonoklast]

315. If the person running for the nomination was a White male, and had the exact same experience,

positions, connections, and problems as Hillary Clinton does, I would bet you all that I have in the world that the very same people who support Clinton on this board not support him.


Is see Scoop Jackson in a pantsuit.

[randome]

318. I think you, and many others, over-estimate supporters of either candidate.

Most of us, I think, simply know how to interpret numbers. Whether anyone likes it or not, Clinton is most likely our next President. Now is the time to start planning for that event.

Brawling on DU serves no purpose.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bluenorthwest]

331. I think many of the anti Bernie posters are just antisemitic just as some of the anti Hillary

posters are just misogynists or Republicans. I personally support Bernie because it is very nice for once, this late in my life, to be able to cast a vote for a candidate for President who has never ever opposed my rights nor calmly explained that their religious views condemn my family. The fact that Hillary supporters are so angry about seeing people stand with a politician who has stood with them is creepy ass stuff. She was one of my favorites, then she spent 17 years ranting against marriage equality and that definitely lowered my affections for her.

If straight Democrats wanted to keep nominating 'formerly anti equality' candidates, the DNC should not have burned up so much good will with Obama, Rick Warren, Donnie McClurkin calling us vampires and child killers. The 'benefit of the doubt' card issued to Obama no longer exists. No one in this Party, not Obama, not DuBois, none of them apologized for the public denigration of LGBT at Democratic events.

So I'm voting for Bernie. Because Hillary opposed my rights for far too long. Bernie never did. I don't expect Hillary folks to understand that.

[liberal N proud]

332. These brawling message are comedy gold

They way supporters for one candidate think they are going to change the mind of the supporters for the other candidate with a simple "message to" thread is hilarious and worth scanning through just for the humor.

Some supporters are so adamant about their convictions that they will wear the letters off their keyboard to proclaim that everyone else is wrong.

I would imagine a few keyboards have been broken because their typing gets more severe with each reply.

[1StrongBlackMan]

340. LOL ...

Now is the time to start planning for that event.

I think many are ... see the above to witness what the plan is.

[SmittynMo]

329. Slam, Slam, Slam

As Don Johnson said in Tin Cup, "Ya know, You're all fucking nuts".

Slamming each side is not going to do shit to persuade ANYONE to switch their vote. Even if it's just facts, good or bad. It just supports your side and accomplishes nothing.

I am voting for Bernie for several reasons as listed below. This is not a full list of reasons I support him. And I do not want to persuade anyone.

In life, most people don't realize it, but there is a 3 step process for everything you do.
1. Gather your facts.
2. Analyze your facts.
3. Make a decision.
If people do not spend any time on steps 1 and 2, they will almost always make bad decisions. When in reality, steps 1 and 2 should occupy most of your time.

Stop the oligarchy and return to democracy: Unless we get the 1% to represent just 1%, and not allow them to buy politicians and the media, we will continue down the same destructive path the oligarchs have created since the Reagan years. And the middle class will be no more, plain and simple.
Note: Clinton is a part of the 1%

Healthcare: Single payer is the ONLY way to go. Fixing the ACA is a total waste of time and money, and there will still be millions of people without insurance. Note: Clinton wants to fix the ACA with tax credits.

Education: Unless we start putting people in college for free, we will continue down the path of "The dumbing of America". You cannot progress in this country without an education. And smarter people create a stronger middle class. Both support reduction of interest rates on current loans. Note: Clinton wants to offer free tuition for the first 2 years, which is already in place in a lot of states. It helps hardly anyone.

Minimum wage: 15 an hour vs 12 an hour. Note: Clinton wants 12 an hour.

These are the top 4 in my book. As you can see there is a HUGE comparison between the two candidates in these areas.

It sure made my decision much easier. I don't care who people vote for and I'm not out to change anyone's mind. I spent a lot of time on steps 1 and 2 before I eventually progressed to step 3. I like to make educated decisions. Especially when I know damn well this decision will affect my children and grand children and the future of democracy and the middle class.

[onecaliberal]

344. It's really very simple. I cannot vote for people who will continue to destroy

The very planet we need to live. Your money, your jobs, nothing will matter without a planet that can sustain human life. I cannot continue to vote against the human race by voting for people to value money and power above all else.

[gordyfl]

352. Will Not Vote for Clinton

I will vote for Sanders. If he doesn't win the Democratic nomination, I will not vote for Clinton, period. If that means suffering through four years of Republican nonsense, then perhaps it will be a much needed lesson for America.

[BootinUp]

363. I guess the thought of repukes winning really doesn't bother you much then.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

387. And you live in FL?

Lemme guess, Marco's "not a bad guy", right?

Enjoy your stay.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

389. Results of alert.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This low count "Sanders supporter" is essentially advocating Republican rule over a Democrat. This is against DU's TOS, pure and simple.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 23, 2015, 03:01 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

I was juror #3

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Poster expressed an opinion during the primaries. Censoring rather than trying to get voters to vote for the Democrat whoever it may be, seems like a sure way to lose in the GE. Discuss reasons why voters need to seriously think about that.

After the primaries, the rules will apply to posts like this. Now is the time to CONVINCE voters to vote for the Dem nominee.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter seems to have difficulty with basic arithmetic. The poster says he/she will not vote for Clinton. 0 - 0 = 0. Or, difficulty with word comprehension. "If" means "if". The post is not "advocating" anything but making a statement about possible results of the election and his possible reaction to those results.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Advocating for a Republican is against DU rules. Advocating not voting for someone isn't. This person is a complete fool though!
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is against the TOS, as I understand them
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

395. I was the one who alerted

The jury, aside from the 3 who got it right, should be fucking ashamed of itself.

Any one who advocates for fucking Republican rule, does not fucking belong here. I don't give a shit who they support in the primaries.....in the general election if you want a Republican to win then you are a fucking idiot.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

400. Where did he/she advocate a Republican win?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

415. Anyone who does not vote for the Democratic nominee, whether it be Bernie or Clinton....

.....should get the fuck off this board. Simple as that. I'm not going to play your usual games, so don't bother replying.

The passive aggressive "maybe they deserve a Republican" is troll food.

If I want a Republican's opinion, I'll go to Yahoo.

[Maedhros]

410. Anyone who equates not voting for Hillary with advocating Republican rule

is hopelessly clueless.

You need to be ignored.

/bye.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

414. Good, ignore me

Anyone who does not vote for the nominee, Bernie or Hillary or O'Malley, needs to get the fuck off the board and back to the Cave or discussionist or whatever asshole they were dropped from.

If I wanted a Republican's opinion, I'll go to Yahoo

[Gore1FL]

366. You are right

I had a post hidden last week in the discussion for calling bullshit on a claim that Hillary supporters will never vote for Sanders because anonymous Sanders supporters on the internet said mean things.

It's remarkable.

[Nitram]

373. Make up your minds, Bernistas.

Is Clinton Banal or evil? Or the banality of evil? Or the evil of banality? Yawn.

[Faux pas]

376. Kicketty Kickin'

[Fearless]

378. Agreed 100%

[muriel_volestrangler]

381. And she is by far the favorite to be the next president, so your arguments are wrong

http://www.predictwise.com/politics/2016president

"her being likely to win according to polls doesn't seem to count for anything"

What the fuck? Yes, of course it counts. It counts a hell of a lot. That's simple logic. In fact, by saying that right near the start of your post, we know you have decided to abandon logic, and just state your own personal feelings as if the American electorate all think like you.

People are not turned off by her. Far more people like her than any other candidate. That's people with votes in American elections.

"It's Clinton herself that we take issue with"

I was under the impression that you, like me, do not have a vote in the American election, being a British citizen and resident but not American (see eg http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025542906). Your personal feelings are irrelevant (as are mine), if that's the case. All you can do is actually comment on the real world, and you're not even trying to do that.

[Tarc]

388. Again, not our job

Clinton is in the lead now, and comfortably so. If you want to get more support for Sanders, you will have to make YOUR case to US.

[Maedhros]

412. And probably get us into a ground war with Russia in the Middle East. PERIOD.

/bye.

[OhDemMom]

407. No way

She'll never get my vote

[marym625]

408. Excellent!!

[GoneOffShore]

426. Nicely done.

You encapsulated everything that is wrong with Ms Clinton and those who surround her.