2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSanders Camp Calls Clinton Tax Proposals ‘REPUBLICAN LITE’

As part of an ongoing rollout of measures aimed at bolstering the middle class, Clinton also has previously proposed tax credits for college costs and large out-of-pocket medical expenses. Her campaign, in turn, has recently attacked Sanders for his support of measures that would raise taxes on the middle class. Until recently, both camps had attempted to make a virtue of not talking about the other. Sanders is advocating for a single-payer Medicare for all health-care system. Under legislation he previously introduced, his campaign acknowledges that taxes would increase on the middle class, but his aides argue that the overall cost of health care to would be lower because people would no longer pay premiums or deductibles. Sanders also backs a bill pending in Congress that would mandate employers provide paid family leave time after a child is born. The bill would be funded by an increase in payroll taxes estimated to cost the average worker about $72 a year. Clinton has spoken out forcefully for the concept of paid family leave but not embraced the particular measure because it violates a campaign pledge not to raise taxes on families making less than $250,000.
During a campaign rally here that drew close to 2,600 people, Sanders touted the bill, which is sponsored by Kirsten Gillibrand, Clintons successor as a senator from New York. Sanders made a similar pitch earlier in the day during a stop in Saint Helena Island, S.C., where he said the bill is widely supported by progressives in Congress, with 20 co-sponsors in the Senate and 113 who have signed on to a similar measure in the House. Thats a lot, said Sanders, who then repeated a challenge he has extended to Clinton to join those supporting the legislation, which he said would cost the typical worker $1.39 a week. Sanders also talked up his support of a plan to expand Social Security benefits by increasing taxes paid into the program by those who earn more than $250,000 a year. Clinton has said she is willing to consider the idea but has not committed to scrap the cap, as progressive activists call the plan.
cont'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/22/sanders-camp-calls-clinton-tax-proposals-republican-lite/
jfern
(5,204 posts)How is that paid for, Hillary?
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)allowing him to enforce the UN resolutions, which allowed force if he found WMD's.
No WMD's were found but he went to war anyway.'
But the Rethugs were in charge of both houses of Congress and they had no wish to stop him.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)From her speech:
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well, effects American security.
This is a very difficult vote, this is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. Any vote that might lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Don't whitewash Hillary's stupid, deadly vote. She, you and I kkownabou exactly what the fucking vote was. We knew at te time. Anyone stupid enough to trust that Bush was not gonna use that vote to go to war is unfit to serve as president. She didn't think that then. Neither did you. Give it up.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)have given Bush a condition-free IWR if the Dems had refused to help pass the one with conditions in the autumn.
So the only real choice was: pass the October IWR and hope Bush complied. Or wait for the Rethugs to pass one with no conditions in January.
Bush didn't go to war until the spring so it wouldn't have made a bit of difference -- except people like you can use it to smear Clinton, Kerry, Biden, etc. as war mongers.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You cannot, with a straight face, say that the vote did not lead to the invasion. You cannot say that it did not make it easier for Bush. You cannot say that the vote was not a vote of support for bush and the invasion.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)He had a Republican House and Senate by the time he went to war, and he could have gotten any resolution he wanted out of them.
merrily
(45,251 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)The operative wording of the Iraq War Resolution, once the carefully and deliberated negotiated bullshit wording, smoke and mirrors are eliminated:
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=801381 (Hillary aided and abetted)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251758846 (no more revisionist history about the IWR-whole thread)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251634493 (Hillary: no regrets--Saddam had to go anyway--Bushco party line)
karynnj
(60,965 posts)Though had large numbers of Senators, Congressmen, former President's etc challenged Bush's determination as not reasonably based in fact in early 2003 when the inspectors were in and Saddam was actually destroying weapons, it would be easier to defend those who voted for the resolution.
By March, the facts were clearer. In addition, there was no UN resolution supporting attacking, because Bush, Blair and the Spanish PM opted not to return to the UN because France and Germany would veto it. This leaves just the national security of the US - which if genuinely threatened allows the President to just get approval within 60 days after attacking.
The problem, as you highlighted, is that Bush simply ignored those determinations. While you could argue that he could have done it anyway - in fact, look at Libya or ISIS - it gave Bush the cover of bipartisan approval.
merrily
(45,251 posts)authorizing. The Resolution clearly gave Bush power and discretion to "ignore" whatever he wanted to "ignore."
Moreover, if, for five minutes, Senators and members of Congress thought Bush had overstepped the authority given by the IWR, there would have been such an outcry as he started shipping troops to Iraq. There was no outcry until the invasion hit the fan--and even then.....
After the Iraq invasion began hitting the fan--and it didn't take long--I saw Biden on a talking head show. He was lashing into Bush, until the host said, "You voted for this." And Biden said, "Ohhh, no. There was carefully negotiated language." Or something to that effect.
At that point, I had a sick, sick feeling in my stomach. It was apparent that Democrats who wanted to vote for the resolution--maybe Republicans, too-- had thrown in a bunch of language to which they could point to cya if anything went wrong. However,, bottom line, they had given Bush full power to proceed as he saw fit.
Again, these are trained lawyers whose day job very much includes understanding the effect of legal language in statutes, treaties, etc. and again, no outcry when troops started heading to Iraq, none when they landed, none when they invaded. Pointing to the surplus language began only after people who voted for the war began blaming Bush for the war and got reminded that they had voted for it. The disclaimers about that war resolution are self-serving bs and, IMO, very, very shameful.
Finally, this was not even the only war resolution or authorization to use military force that Bush could have relied on at the time.
karynnj
(60,965 posts)The SFRC worked to write a better resolution, but the IWR was the one taken to the floor. Many worked to amend the language and it can be argued that Bush actually violated it as there is no reasonable justification for his decision. Bush lied on many things he committed to. The problem is that very few called him out before he invaded. I know Kerry and I think Harkin did.
merrily
(45,251 posts)statement. The plain language of the AUMF empowered him to do what he did. Moreover, that argument was never made anywhere until the invasion hit the fan, as stated in my prior posts.
If a President violates a war resolution, the remecy would be, at a minimum, impeachment, given that the Constitution gives Congress sole power to declare war.
As far as claiming Bush lied orally, so they later granted him broad power in the form of a written war resolution, please. If a lawyer tried to make that kind of argument for an ordinary contract, they'd be sued for malpractice and lose. And, here we are dealing with a WAR resolution, not a contract to haul trash or install kitchen cabinets. And how on earth do Democrats justify taking Bush's word for anything, anyway? Taking the word of a Republican President about a war is certainly not why I vote for Democrats. If they did that--and I don't believe for a second they did do it--it was dereliction of duty.
There is no rational, honest way to justify that war resolution as anything but legally empowering Bush to do what he did. The plain language says that and the absence of any legislative outcry when Bush allegedly overstepped both speak volumes.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)and the simple fact that you need to lie to defend your candidate proves that she does not deserve your support.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Her hawkishness disqualifies her from getting my vote.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Truer words have never been spoken!
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)but with a different charisma.
I'm saying that "as a Canadian".
Harper was direct from the furthest right-wing "Reform Party" movement in Canada, the equivalent to the "Tea Party" in the US. He would have gotten along great with Hillary Clinton.
I'm glad he's gone.
I wish the best for the USA.
mythology
(9,527 posts)you think that the Senator ranked the 11th most liberal during her time in the Senate, a woman who voted 93% the same as Sanders is equivalent to the Tea Party.
Interesting theory.
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)If the median US wages per person
$26,695 /12 =$2,225 monthly take home
Average Sliver Plan under ACA is =$328
= $2225-$328=$1897
so 14.7% of your monlthy income goes to healthcare
HRC campaign attack is saying that there will 9% tax increase under Sen. Sanders single payer system
if the monthly take home $2,225 *9% = $200.25
$200.25 is way better than $328
and it covers everyone
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)nations.
http://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0006_health-care-oecd
A lot of that extra cost is administrative costs due to our inefficient health insurance system.
We need to take the for-profit insurance companies out of the healthcare business when it comes to providing insurance for the majority of Americans.
if some wealthy people want some sort of very expensive care such as insurance that covers cosmetic surgery for movie stars, let them have it.
But most of us would prefer lower deductibles and lower monthly premiums. Single payer would provide that without cutting the pay of doctors. And doctors and hospitals would see their administrative, bureaucratic work and costs go down too.
Win, win all around with single payer.
Hillary is pandering. Bernie is telling the truth and speaking wisely -- as usual.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Our Schools & prisons too. This is our Gov., These are Our Federal and State funds, our schools, our prisons.
Way to much (I bet about half, or more of all Gov. spending is lost to profiteers) is wasted on profits.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)There are still deductibles and co pays to get care and good luck finding doctors that take your plan if you are on the bottom tier.
tazkcmo
(7,419 posts)What good is health insurance when you can't afford the co-pay or the deductible is half your annual income?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)the people making the most are paying the most.
well. except for corporations and all the wealthy who hide their money. and the people making less tend to pay less in taxes, even though proportionately, they are paying way more than the rich. so a tax cut, which will NOT take into account the hidden money of the wealthy, will benefit the wealthy much more, and the people at the bottom of the pay scale will get shit. so who generally gives free gifts to the people at the top and shit to the rest? republicans.
free money to those who don't need it and shit for the rest thinly disguised as a "progressive" solution. i don't think the term"lite" applies. this is straight out of the gop playbook.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Release some damn policy proposals or shut up and stop criticizing others. Ya sound like a Republican, Bernie. Criticizing others without any policy of his own.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)down that road, the primary might not even last until March.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)and to chastise Hillary is to cover for his lack of ability to lead. All the disparaging talking points so many thinks they have Hillary over the barrel, no, pushing RW type of disparaging is not getting Sanders any support.
I am ready for the next debates.
tazkcmo
(7,419 posts)Tax credits are great if you have the money in the first place. If you don't?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Many Ds need to learn how to fight for the entire universe and 'settle' for at least, the moon & stars.