Why do so many excuse Hillary's lies and 180 position changes??????

[darkangel218]

Lies and deceit should have no place in politics.

[BootinUp]

1. Why do so many believe the bullshit anti-Hillary spin?

[MaggieD]

27. That is the REAL question

I have never seen so much nonsense and baloney about a political candidate in my 38 years of voting. She may well be the most lied about candidate in the history of US politics.

[daleanime]

51. Which ones?

Her pro-war stance?

Her connection to Wall Street?

Her ability to evolve/de-evolve on demand?

Etc, etc....

[BootinUp]

57. Lets use those excellent examples daleanime

A PRO war stance? By that description I assume you mean she never expresses (either in speech or vote) any reservations about invasions, use of ground troops, or *proposes* the use of diplomatic solutions instead of the military.

If the above sounds reasonable to you, then I propose you have bought into an anti-hillary bullshit spin.

Connection to Wall Street? Never mind that everything she did was legal. In politics it is not necessary to prove or show any evidence of quid pro quo, to smear someone, all you got to do is make the accusation and spend enough money or effort spreading that smear and you will hurt your opponents. People believe ridiculous shit all the time, and people spread ridiculous shit all the time.
Thats just the way politics works. As for why Hillary is not afraid to work with Wall Street or give speeches to financial companies or represent them as a Senator, thats what she believes in as a liberal. Working with people to move her policies forward or giving speeches on issues that are important.

Her ability to evolve/de-evolve. I have yet to see any sign after watching her for almost 25 years, that she does not fight for her principles in the best way she knows how to, AND that I feel good about her principles as a liberal and life long Democrat. Evolve: Wouldn't this involve listening to your constituents or experts on issues or counting votes in the Congress and reworking bills to get them passed? You know, the shit a politician is supposed to do? De-Evolve: You will have to give me an example.

On this last one, I think it is yours or others expectations of what a politician should be doing and how to actually get it done that should be looked at critically.

[FreakinDJ]

2. They don't - they overwhelmingly don't trust her

Come the GE when Dems stay home I'm sure they'll try to spin it

[leftofcool]

3. HRC has 83% of support from Dems

So, it looks like only the Dems on DU will be staying home. I would say DU relevance is about 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.1%

[Android3.14]

7. You misplaced the decimal

If you really want to make a hyperbolic comparison, you should move the decimal to the right of the leftmost 0.

"000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.1%" is misleading and mistaken math, kind of like voting for Hillary is misleading and mistaken.

[leftofcool]

10. Bottom line....Bernie is done.

I expect him to be laying off staff pretty soon.

[daleanime]

53. Why?

[daleanime]

52. Still haven't meet one in person....

And when I do I'll probably scare the poor thing with my welcome.

[peacebird]

11. If she gets the nom, and then loses the general election they will once again blame the progressives

Just like the last fiasco under DWS. Easier to blame voters for staying home than to take blame for running a lousy campaign or a candidate that doesn't inspire people.

[FreakinDJ]

17. There you go

Progressives bad

[reformist2]

4. Here's their logic: They a priori assume she's the best person to beat any Repug, so anything she do

will be excused - any admission on their part that Hillary is less than stellar risks encouraging Bernie, or worse, gives ammo to the Repugs in the general that not even her supporters are sure about her.

So in short, they are lying to everyone about how great she is, because they feel there is no alternative, and they cannot afford to show any weakness.

Which is sad, because more and more surveys indicate that Bernie could beat any Repug in a general election, and more easily than Hillary for that matter.

[artislife]

45. Yup nt

[TM99]

5. Sadly, politics is the art of

the deception and the lie.

Finding an honest, congruent, and honorable politician is like finding a virgin in a bordello. They are few and far between and often corrupted immediately.

That Sanders has remained consistent and congruent all of these decades is a true testament to his character and personality.

[RBInMaine]

6. Why are some on the fringe suffering from Hillary Derangement Syndrome?

You should be spending more time talking about Bernie than being obsessed with irrational attacks against Hillary. For example, where is Bernie's plan to expand the private domestic economy. I still don't see it.

[TIME TO PANIC]

43. Sanders promotes policies that would make life less expensive for the 99%.

The more disposable income the middle class has, the more our economy grows.

[Vattel]

8. Her dishonesty is a major reason to vote for Sanders.

[merrily]

9. It's her turn. Just ask the DNC.

[SmittynMo]

12. bingo n/t

[Demeter]

13. Lying to oneself is the worst of bad habits

It's a defense mechanism against realizing one is being screwed unmercifully, for the amusement and profits of the screwer. It's done to maintain the status quo, when all parties would be better off making a change.

It's the Stockholm syndrome writ large.

And then, there are those who are paid well to do the spinning. Most of the payoffs are in promises: potential future favors, but the canny businesspeople get hard, cold cash money up front. This is what makes campaigns so expensive.

[cantbeserious]

14. Cult Of Personality Trumps Reason

eom

[Orrex]

15. That sword cuts both ways.

eom

[cantbeserious]

16. Please Elaborate

eom

[Orrex]

21. You first

eom

[cantbeserious]

33. You First With Your Unexplained Comment

eom

[Orrex]

34. You first with yours

eom

[JTFrog]

36. Well played. n/t

[artislife]

46. So this is an example of winning for you?

No substance.

[JTFrog]

60. Just as much as this is:

http://betterment.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=840338

[randome]

35. Does the Cult of Personality trump math, too?

Because math says Clinton is our next President. Support your candidate by all means but arguing with math is just plain silly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Orrex]

39. Your sigline

[font color="blue"]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/font]

Sure, but the feathers are more likely to leave you feeling down.

[randome]

44. 2000 pounds of anything will leave you feeling down!

But, yeah, I guess getting flattened by 2000 pounds of feathers would be more depressing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Orrex]

48. If it were 2000 pounds of wool, you'd feel like you've been fleeced!

[randome]

50. 2000 pounds of cell phones would leave you feeling disconnected.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Orrex]

55. If they dropped 2000 pounds of Icy-Hot on you, you'd Feel The Bern!

I mean burn. Whoopsie!

[Jarqui]

18. I do not understand why some people excuse Hillary's dishonesty

But not everybody does
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/2016-presidential-swing-state-polls/release-detail?ReleaseID=2287

Clinton and Trump continue to have the worst overall favorability ratings among all voters of any of the leading candidates, and the lowest scores for being honest and trustworthy, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University Poll finds.
....
Florida voters give Clinton a negative 44 - 51 percent favorability rating and say 59 - 35 percent that she is not honest and trustworthy.
...
Ohio voters give Clinton a negative 38 - 56 percent favorability rating and say 61 - 33 percent she is not honest and trustworthy.

I'm not cherry picking. I've been tracking this some in other polls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1268085
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1268191
- I believe a hunk of her unfavorable numbers relate to a lack of trust

Trump, Carson & Rubio (the top 3 GOP candidates right now) all beat her in Florida and Carson & Rubio beat her in Ohio - key swing states where the majority of voters do not trust her.

Now, someone may say "shame on you for attacking Hillary". But I do not see the above as "attacks" They're just facts fairly extracted from published polls. They're not a big secret as when I last checked, the Republicans can read polls.

I am one of those people who is put off by Hillary's lies, flop-flops and pandering. I was in 2008 and I still am. I do not think she is trustworthy. I think she'll say and/or do anything to win and attain power. I have an unfavorable view of her based upon her own acts and words. It's her fault I don't trust her - not mine.

Having said that, if she wins the primary, I will not support the GOP candidate so I'll hold my nose and be behind Hillary - excusing her dishonesty because the GOP are worse.

[Major Hogwash]

62. It's called "cognitive dissonance".

A form of pathology of denying reality.

Or, as regular people call it, living in the Twilight Zone.

[madokie]

19. If Obama

hadn't cheated and won we wouldn't be worried with Hillary this time around but he did and we are


Do I really need the sarcasm thingy?

[Chan790]

20. It's a cult of personality. n/t

[Orrex]

23. Much like supporting a quixotic campaign with no hope of victory, no?

I've never heard of a campaign exhorting its acolytes to "feel" their chosen one, yet here we are.

[Chan790]

25. The diference is...

Bernie's supporters love Bernie for his ideals and positions; Clinton supporters seem to love Hillary in spite of hers...they can't possibly hold the same values and beliefs she does--if they did, they'd be Republicans...just like she should be.

[Orrex]

28. Clinton's supporters sound like the exact opposite of a personality cult, in fact.

Recognizing that a candidate has the substantially greater chance of success is simply a matter of pragmatism.

Clinging to your candidate because you "love" him in spite of his dim electoral prospects, while attacking anyone who doesn't "love" him, is explicitly the behavior of cultists.

[Chan790]

32. Pragmatism is always half-evil.

I love that quote. It sums up my feelings on supporting Clinton perfectly.

I'm no longer to do things that are even fractionally-evil because they seem to have a better chance of success than doing the right thing.

[Orrex]

38. Empty platitudes like that will help secure the Whitehouse for Republicans.

Name a successful national-level presidential candidate in the US for the past, say, 250 years who wasn't "half-evil" by your facile definition. Carter? Nope. Kennedy? Nope. Truman? Nope. FDR? Nope. Lincoln? Nope. Adams? Nope. Jefferson? Nope. Washington? Nope.

Who, exactly, qualifies for office according to your fantasy?


And before you say "Sanders," I remind you that I asked for a "successful" candidate.

[Chan790]

40. Electing Clinton will also help secure the White House for Republican values.

I don't get the affection of any Democrat for Clinton. She's more conservative and business-friendly than Richard Nixon...that alone should disqualify her from consideration.

I don't need an ideologically-pure candidate...I merely need one that rejects Clintonian Third-way economic-values and social-issue triangulation.

[Orrex]

41. Well then, what is your solution?

And I mean a real solution, one that recognizes the mathematical near-certainty that Sanders won't win the general election.

I don't need an ideologically-pure candidate...I merely need one that rejects Clintonian Third-way economic-values and social-issue triangulation.

Well, in the space of just two posts your position shifted from "Pragmatism is half-evil" to "one that rejects Clintononian Third-way..."

Since no current candidate is viable while passing your specifically anti-Clinton purity test, what is your plan? Will you stay home and let your non-vote benefit the Republican candidate?


What, exactly, is to be done?

[artislife]

47. Nothing great comes from being timid. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Most just seem to have a great deal of bias against Bernie and need an avenue to express that

in furtive, less than direct methods.

[Major Hogwash]

63. Sometimes in even direct methods.

Like calling Bernie "Benjamin Netanyahu."

[randome]

24. How many is 'so many'?

I think you over-estimate the forces on her side because it excuses why Sanders does not poll well.

But if your question relates to changing positions, I'd offer the theory that she's a politician. It isn't always pleasant to watch but then, to hear some tell it, Clinton is the newest incarnation of Gozer, The Destroyer and Obama is her Zuul.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[GitRDun]

26. Another sad sour grapes post from the Sanders id squad

Well done!

[Orrex]

29. "Lies and deceit should have no place in politics."

That's frankly naive, and it's about the same as saying "Kicking, running and passing should have no place in football."

"Lies and deceit" have been a part of politics for as long as politics have been a part of politics. To say that they "should have no place in politics" is to fail to grasp how politics have worked for millennia.

[Hepburn]

30. Because...because...

...it's her turn...ummmmmmm....she's inevitable...???

[JoePhilly]

31. RW meme.

[artislife]

49. I wish I was doing the drinking game..I would have a shot right now.

This is not as good a point as some of the supporters think it is.

[JoePhilly]

56. I guess the OP could bring up the ...

... emails some more.

That seemed to have worked well.

[JTFrog]

37. And this kind of hyperbole should have no place on DU.

Yet, here it is.

Perspective is key.

[Orsino]

42. Popularity.

Her lies are also in step with the standards set by both parties.

[Cosmic Kitten]

54. Those people will tell you lie and deceit are *good politics*

Those people have no qualm about
using GOP and right-wing tactics
to smear traditional democratic values.
*new democrats* *3rd-Wayers* et al.

Hillary has an army of social media
keyboard warriors.

You can buy a LOT of support
with all those millions $$$.

For some, it's just business.

[closeupready]

58. I think some of them are angling for jobs, patronage, contracts.

That kind of thing, so they help carry water for her campaign, no matter what.

[Cosmic Kitten]

59. Yep. Particulary the *Hate Hillary 2008, Love Hillary 2016* folks